Michelle Obama Has Advice Every Woman Needs to Hear

Summary

Podcast Summary
Podcast: Baby, this is Keke Palmer
Episode: Michelle Obama Has Advice Every Woman Needs to Hear
Date: May 19, 2026
Host: Keke Palmer
Guest: Michelle Obama

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, insightful conversation between Keke Palmer and former First Lady Michelle Obama. Focusing on identity, change, service, motherhood, and the art of ‘becoming’, the two dive into navigating high achievement, public life, motherhood, and the evolving journey of embracing joy and authenticity. The discussion flows with warmth, wit, and plenty of practical wisdom—especially for women seeking to define life on their own terms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening & Icebreaker Questions (02:06–11:36)

• Keke welcomes Michelle as “a true role model” and emphasizes her impact on Black women and anyone seeking their path.
• Rapid-fire questions reveal Michelle’s earthy warmth and relatable style:
  • Zodiac sign: Capricorn—“I think I’m a pretty pure Capricorn.” (03:27)
  • Love language: Quality time—“You don’t have to get me nothing… it’s really quality time.” (03:59)
  • Sleepovers with friends: Centered on talking, not TV; always music playing. (05:12)
  • Starstruck moments: Queen of England, Pope, Nelson Mandela, Maya Angelou. Mandela stands out for a family visit in South Africa. (06:10–07:18)
  • Date nights with Barack: Private room for intimacy, catching up. Favorite spot—Kwame’s restaurant at the Salamander in DC. (07:53–09:22)
  • Joyful songs: Stevie Wonder’s “All I Do”, Gabriel Jacoby’s new music, Gap Band classics. (10:16–11:36)

2. Embracing the Current Chapter (12:15–15:42)

• Michelle defines her present life in one word: “Freedom.”
  • Freedom to focus on herself now that her daughters are adults.
  • Freedom in professional choices: “My yes is truly my yes. My no is my no.” (12:53)
• White House Reflections: Learning about strength, excellence, and what it meant to serve with every action scrutinized. (13:39)
  • “I learned… we are pretty strong and capable… operating at a high level of excellence for a very long time.” (13:59)
  • Women rarely claim their wisdom and accomplishments until later in life.

3. Family, Motherhood, and Fame’s Challenges (17:00–34:17)

• Protecting her daughters from public scrutiny—real strategies:
  • Focused them on school and normal activities, restricted travel to school holidays.
  • “They bump their heads, they look to you to figure out whether it really hurts … That’s what we did for eight years. You’re fine.” (19:03–19:34)
  • Adjusted White House schedules for their needs; invoked “Mama Bear” when needed. (21:53–23:07)
• Maintaining family’s core values in an unusual environment:
  • Relied on her mother (the girls’ grandmother) for consistency and presence at home.
  • “I could not have done any of this without my mom … I knew every day I wasn’t there, they were waking up with the values she taught me.” (31:10–32:16)
• Parenting without guilt:
  • "The damage comes in when you parent out of guilt … don’t be like, mom, sorry." (33:53)
  • Modeling resilience and grace under scrutiny or adversity. “We model how they should feel.” (34:18)
• Balance between discipline and compassion:
  • “There has to be some physical touch…if you get in there early…now you have a look, you have something to reinforce the look.” (36:33–37:07)
  • Emphasizing real consequences: “If I tell you something more than once, we’re leaving.” (38:15)

4. Redefining Public Image and Sharing Authentically (39:13–44:56)

• Defining self before the world defines you:
  • “If we don’t define ourselves on our own terms, other people will define us.” (39:37)
  • Shared personal stories to disrupt stereotypes (“angry Black woman”, etc.) and connect broadly.
• Mentoring and “Mentoring en masse”:
  • Memoir and podcasting as wider mentorship. “How do I pick a mentee? I’m trying to reach many.” (43:20–43:29)
  • Roots of identity in family, upbringing—not achievements. (44:31)

5. High Achievement, Burnout, and Redefining Success (45:16–56:36)

• Keke and Michelle explore the costs of high-achievement culture:
  • “I was a high achieving box checker my entire life…You learn to come to grips with that part of yourself…give her a nice warm hug.” (47:11–48:04)
  • Not everyone needs to be a high achiever; joy and value found in other ways.
  • “My happiness is not tied to what I’ve achieved…overachievers, many are unhappy people.” (49:54–51:02)
  • Pivoting from perfectionism to meaningful impact—leaving law for public service for joy.
  • “To hear a call, you gotta be quiet, right? And overachievers…sometimes the noise drowns out the call.” (52:51)
  • Encouraging Keke (and listeners) to recognize when to “take your foot off the gas, but you don’t have to brake.” (61:15)

6. The Myth of ‘Having It All’ & Navigating Life’s Chapters (61:41–68:21)

• Dispelling the myth that women can ‘have it all’ simultaneously:
  • Life happens in chapters—different seasons for work, parenting, self. (61:15–62:11)
  • “You don’t get it all at once. You don’t get to be a great mother, have eight jobs and then add two more.” (62:11)
  • Candid recognition of unique struggles for women and minorities. “This is built for a rectangle. I’m a circle trying to push through it.” (63:44)
• On representation and being ‘the exception’:
  • “You wind up doing stuff that a lot of people can’t and shouldn’t be trying to do…” (63:55)
  • Advocates for recognizing collective progress and lifting up others.

7. Humanity, Social Change, and Compassion (64:58–70:55)

• Hope through history:
  • Michelle reminds us to see our path in historical context: “We are living proof that [progress] is happening.” (65:22)
  • The need for community, connection, and forgiving oneself—everyone at different chapters.
• Call for compassion and collective grace:
  • “We all have to give one another grace and always wonder, why are you so mad?” (70:00)
  • “This isn’t an assignment for you, Keke…we all have to do the work so that Keke isn’t trying to do everything by herself.” (70:50)

8. Fashion, Identity, and Cultural Messaging (72:29–74:56)

• Fashion as political and personal expression:
  • “Fashion was another political tool…I wore Target as well as J.Crew…I wanted to make that statement through the clothes I wore.” (72:41–73:59)
  • Clothing as accessible, meaningful representation for all women.

9. Fun & Reflection: ‘When They Go Low, I Go High’ Game (77:03–84:15)

• Michelle tackles real-life scenarios with her trademark wisdom:
  • On being undermined: “Let my work speak for itself…more satisfaction on the other end when someone else comes to you and says, ‘I know he’s lying.’” (78:14)
  • On betrayal: “If it was something hurtful, I might go low.” (78:50)
  • On public criticism: “Go low with my team…publicly, go high.” (78:58)
  • On judgment: Go high in public, reinforce boundaries in private, and use humor when correcting misinterpretations. (81:03–83:35)
  • On dismissed achievements: “Just watch me, boo.” (84:04)
• Final advice:
  • “But, girl, you can’t save everybody. So one step at a time, conquer, you know, small steps to all of it.” (84:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• 🗣️ “Freedom. I think that’s the big word. Free braids. Freedom. My kids are launched—freedom.” — Michelle Obama on her current chapter (12:22)
• 🗣️ “We model how they should feel about it. That’s why if Mom has to work… you don’t need to be sorry.” — Michelle Obama on parenting (34:18)
• 🗣️ "If we don’t define ourselves on our own terms, other people will define us." — Michelle Obama (39:37)
• 🗣️ “You may have to take your foot off the gas, but you don’t have to brake… Just slow down…” — Michelle Obama on balancing ambition and parenthood (61:15)
• 🗣️ “This is built for rectangles. I’m a circle.” — Keke Palmer on navigating systems designed for others (63:44)
• 🗣️ “To hear a call, you gotta be quiet. And overachievers…sometimes the noise drowns out the call.” — Michelle Obama (52:51)
• 🗣️ “Grace…! We all have to give one another grace and always wonder, why are you so mad?” — Michelle Obama (70:00)
• 🗣️ “Let my work speak for itself…there’s more satisfaction when someone else comes to you…” — Michelle Obama on how to handle credit theft (78:14)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:06–11:36] – Fun icebreakers, identity, and joy playlist
• [12:15–15:42] – Present-day freedom and post-White House life
• [17:00–34:17] – Parenting, protecting children from fame, generational wisdom
• [39:13–44:56] – Owning personal image, authentic sharing, mass mentorship
• [45:16–56:36] – Costs of high achievement, finding joy beyond success
• [61:15–68:21] – Myth of ‘having it all’, life in chapters, challenges for women/minorities
• [72:29–74:56] – Fashion, identity, and cultural messages
• [77:03–84:15] – “Go low/go high” game, practical wisdom for real-world situations

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Tone & Style

• Warm, candid, humorous, and deeply relatable.
• Balance of practical advice, vulnerability, and empowering affirmation.
• Reflective of both women’s authenticity and commitment to serving others through honesty and example.

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a heartfelt testament to the power of evolution, self-definition, and community. Michelle Obama offers invaluable lessons on claiming one’s voice, nurturing family amidst chaos, and seeking balance over perfection, all while encouraging listeners to embrace the ongoing process of becoming who they truly are.

Recommended for:
Anyone seeking inspiration, personal growth, or real talk on ambition, success, and the ongoing journey of self-realization.

Transcript

[A]

We live in a time where people feel like they have to be perfect, to be respected, to be loved, to feel like they're enough. But today's guest has always reminded us that becoming isn't about arriving, it's about evolving and knowing your light can't be dimmed when you know who you are. Now listen, she's not just our former first lady. She's someone so many of us feel like we know. Someone we've grown up with, learned from and been comforted by. A true role model. Groundbreaking in every sense, but still honest. Still someone who makes you feel seen, especially black women and really anyone trying to find their way. Michelle Obama is in a new chapter defining life on her own terms. From her podcast imo to her latest book, the look, she's getting real about identity, style and what it takes to continue becoming and return to yourself. So how does it feel to embrace this next chapter? And how has she stayed rooted in who she is through every version of her life? We have so much to get into. Cause baby, this is Keke Palmer. No matter what we doing in the car just chilling pop on Amazon music, sit back and listen Life, love, sex, science, covering it all especially the bad cause money always evolved no matter what it is we gonna make it make sense Nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kings so grab you a drink and a cig that you enjoy and get into the vibe that only you know it's your girl. This is. This is Kiki, baby. This is Kiki K. Today's episode is brought to you by the new drinks at McDonald's. Six new drinks, crafted sodas with cold foam, refreshers with popping boba and freeze dried fruit. And trust they are giving everything. Now get in today's show without further ado, let's bring out Mrs. Michelle Obama.

[B]

I love the cool off. Look at where we are. I know I can't be wonderful.

[A]

Oh, my God, thank you so much. In your world, the last time I saw you. Well, I guess the last time I saw you we were in LA having lunch. But before then it was with you and Craig. That's right. On IMO. Yes.

[B]

In DC in that little house.

[A]

Yes. So, Ms. Obama, where have you been the last few days?

[B]

I've been here.

[A]

You're in la. Okay, cool.

[B]

Yeah, we're taping imo.

[A]

Yeah. You know, out of LA now, not dc.

[B]

You know, it's a little bit of both because we have studios now, so we're here and it's easier to get people because Everybody's coming through la.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But when I'm on the east coast, we'll tape it in D.C. so I think in June, we'll take. But I'm here, I'm here in your

[A]

fair city omg, we're so happy to have you. I knew it was shining brighter.

[B]

I love to be here.

[A]

Yes. Well, I always do a pre show pull up with my guests, so I gotta do it with you. Okay. So I feel that I know some of this, but obviously we want the world to know, and I do have to say this on behalf of the whole Babydis Keke Palmer community. We are really happy to have you. I love you and to hear from you. I love you.

[B]

I am proud of you and I always love talking to you.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I am happy with her feet kicked up. Kicking up.

[A]

Okay. What is your zodiac sign?

[B]

Capricorn.

[A]

I knew that. My perfect match, straight up, Capricorn and Virgo.

[B]

I think I am a. I don't know my moon and my rising and all that stuff, but I think I'm a pretty pure Capricorn.

[A]

Yeah. Because, you know, is it the part that's so ambitious? Cause, you know, they say that about Capricorns and, I mean, you've accomplished so

[B]

much, probably the ambition, the work ethic, the perfectionism, preferably. Yeah. I mean, I don't mind being outside, but I'm very happy to be home.

[A]

That's me, too.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's giving earth sign energy. What is your love language? Have you heard of this love language?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Okay. So do you know what yours is?

[B]

Quality time, without a doubt. With everyone. With my husband, with my kids, with my friends, you know, we don't have to do anything. You don't have to get me nothing. You don't have to touch me. But I like that. I like physical touch, but I'm a big hugger. But it's really quality time, you know, I try to.

[A]

Especially with the slow dive, too. You know what I mean? Just being able to just sit in a room with somebody and you guys don't have to say anything. You can just watch a good show.

[B]

Well, Barack teases me with my girlfriends because some of my girlfriends, it takes us days to catch up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, there's usually a sleepover involved. And we're talking the entire time. You know, Barack might be there. We'll walk through. He's like, y' all still talking? It's like we're just on last month, you know?

[A]

Yes, I live. Because that's that grown life.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, you do reach a point

[B]

where it's like, girl going all the

[A]

days when we was teenagers. Catching up at the end every night

[B]

or doing between classes. Yeah, we're catching up.

[A]

I'll see you next month.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

So wait a minute. When you said sleepover, I do quickly have to dive into that because what is Michelle Obama's sleepover looking like? Are we having charcuterie? Are we watching tv?

[B]

Oh, we have lots of great fun. No, no, really, Generally no tv because we're talking so much.

[A]

I know, that's right.

[B]

So there's a lot of talk and it depends on where we are. This is like now, which house are we?

[A]

That's fabulous.

[B]

Right, right. So we love it.

[A]

Which house are we?

[B]

If we're in a spot with a pool, we are outside.

[A]

Yes. That's why we need those braids on day.

[B]

That's what we need.

[A]

Yes, braids.

[B]

This is what I'm saying, you know, Freedom.

[A]

Freedom.

[B]

Braids. Cute. At every moment in the water, outside of the water, you know, we're just hanging is what we're doing. Eating good food. Music is always on. I, I we in anywhere I am, music has to be on.

[A]

Now, are you a playlist curator or do the girls do it? Do Sasha Malia hook you up?

[B]

No, I don't mean like, no, no. I just love what I love. So I have my various playlists. So I create my own. Yeah, I love that.

[A]

Who is someone you've met that made you feel starstruck? If that's me?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I don't know if you knew.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. But they're interesting people. Like the Queen of England.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

The Pope.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Nelson Mandela.

[A]

Nelson Mandela, Yeah.

[B]

I mean, that was pretty powerful because it was towards the end of his life, we were in South Africa, I think our first major trip to South Africa. And it was a solo trip for me, but I had the girls, I had my mom, I had my niece and nephew because it was such an important experience. And we were with Grassa Michel and we had done this big speech with women and girls. And afterwards we talked and she said, do you want to come by the house and see Madiba? And I was like, yeah. You know, so it was a spur of the moment thing. We had to talk to security to make sure that we could take the drive. And then we were going to their home. So I was like, me on an international trip as first lady. That's a lot of people coming to your house. But she was Like, I want him to see you. And we went and sat with him and it was just amazing, not only to meet him, but to be in his home with his family. Oh my gosh. So yeah. Yeah. So those are some of the start. Maya Angelou.

[A]

Maya Angelou. I love her so much and I've gotten so much more into her story as I've gotten older and her history as an artist and you know what I mean? Cause I feel like with Maya, similarly to James Baldwin, for me, I really think of them sometimes only as thought leaders.

[B]

Uh huh. Yeah.

[A]

I really didn't realize how much artistic work they had put. Put in before they even started to talk about and digest what it meant to be a performer. You know what I mean? So it's just incredible.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Maya Angelou. Wow. What does a perfect date night with Mr. Obama look like?

[B]

A perfect date night is dinner out. Usually a private room.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So that. Get it to it so that we can actually just be here and no one is walking up, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean it's fine for people to walk up, but when you're on your date with your man, it's just sort of like, oh, hey, you know, so private room. When we actually have a lot of catching up to do. Right. Cause we live together, we've been married for 30 plus years. Sometimes there's nothing new, of course, you know, we're eating. It's like, what'd you do today? Nothing. You know, I mean, I feel you. So it just sort of of like, you know, and some days we're in the house together all day and we know we're going to have dinner together and we're like, well, don't talk to me, you know, because we got to save it for dinner.

[A]

Do you guys have a favorite place to go?

[B]

We have a few favorites depending upon where we are, but yeah, I don't want to name them, but.

[A]

Right. Because then we're going to find it right there.

[B]

There are a couple of places in D.C. there's a new Pl I like to discover new places. Yeah, he's sort of. He doesn't go out as much as I do. I go out with my girlfriends because of qual time. So I'm usually the one discovering the new stuff. And I'm like, ooh, he'll like this.

[A]

There's a place. My friend does this event. Kwame does this event. Family reunion at Sheila Jackson's hotel that I think is in D.C. oh yeah,

[B]

no, that's one of our favorites.

[A]

I've always want to Go there. I've never gone there, but I want to go there and check it out.

[B]

The Salamander.

[A]

Salamander sounds really good.

[B]

The restaurant there. What's the crystal? What's the restaurant? Yeah, it's Kwame's restaurant. Yeah. No, we go there all the time. That's one of our favorite date night places.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Because I love all the food there and they have a nice private room.

[A]

Yep. He has.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Doggone, doggone. Yeah, Doggone. Kwame's version. Yeah, he's great. He. The Tatiana's. I can't even get over in.

[B]

I went there once. That's a little too busy.

[A]

It's very busy for me. It's so popping.

[B]

Yeah, it's very popping.

[A]

You could be in there and it's like, asap. Rocky over there, Michelle Obama over there.

[B]

You know, it's a little too popping for me. I like a little less pop.

[A]

Pop howling. Okay, last one. What is a song that instantly transports you to a place of joy?

[B]

It's a good one. I'll do an oldie and a newie. I love that oldie. Almost anything. Stevie. But truly, all I do all I do thinking about you. That's one of the ones that. That'll be a car ride song. You know, Windows Down. Car ride song. New is the one. Jake. Gabriel Jacoby.

[A]

Gabriel Jacoby. I gotta get onto that.

[B]

What vibe is it? It's funk. He's a young artist. A mixture of, like, D', Angelo, a little, you know, Chico DeBarge. Like. It's not Chico.

[A]

You pulled back with the Chico.

[B]

This is the. This is the, you know. Yeah. I like these young folks that, you know, have the influen of the. And old. Seems like. Is Chico Di Barge old?

[A]

No. I mean, I remember him on Brand on Moesho on episode of Moesha.

[B]

Right. You know, but it's a good vibe. I highly recommend his whole album, but the one on there, that's another vibe. Upbeat.

[A]

Bucky. Shout out to him.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Coming from Chicago, I feel like I'd always say anything with the Gap Band.

[B]

Oh, well, I love the Gap Band. Yes. I love that. Always puts me in a good mood.

[A]

Don't even need the words.

[B]

I know well. Cause I barely know a word, you know, so I'm usually making some stuff up.

[A]

Hilarious. Well, let's start with this chapter of your life. And by the way, should I say Michelle? Should I say Mrs. Obama?

[B]

Grown by now.

[A]

Okay. Michelle. I feel so crazy, but that's like my girl.

[B]

It's too crazy to be Mrs. Obama, when I, you know, when I'm gonna tell you what to do about your life. So, no, it's Michelle. And for people, I usually say whatever you are comfortable with, because some people are like, I am never gonna say your name. And it's like, okay, that's fine, you know, but, girl, call me Michelle.

[A]

Thank you. So, Michelle, let's get to the present. What would you describe this chapter of your life? Or how would you describe. Excuse me. This chapter of your life?

[B]

Oh, freedom. I think that's the big word. Free braids. Freedom. My kids are launched freedom, you know, and, you know, our relationship is as close as ever, but it's a different kind of relationship. They're. They're independent adults, and they have good sense. And so there's just a freedom of. You guys are good. So now we're advisors. We're catching up.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I am not worried about your existentialism, you know, and there's a freedom that comes with that, obviously. Freedom from a professional perspective. I'm at the stage in life where I'm making every choice that I make is mine, and I can't necessarily blame anybody else or fault anybody else, you know, and there's a freedom that comes with that. My yes is truly my yes. My no is my no. I can't say it's because I have to do this, this or that, or because I'm in this role. Sometimes I say no because I don't want to do it, and it doesn't work for me. So freedom, I think.

[A]

Yeah. You talk a lot about that experience, you know, in the White House, who you had to be. I mean, you're carrying a heavy load of representation, leaders of the free world. That's a lot, you know. But what did you learn about yourself during that time of who you were becoming? Like, what was that transition point of who you were able to be, who you had to become to be there, and then who you get to be after.

[B]

That's, you know, I think the primary thing I learned about myself in it and about my husband and our family is that we are pretty strong and capable, you know, and capable of operating at a high level of excellence for a very long period of time, you know, and now I'm at the point where I feel like I can own that. It's like that did just happen. Yeah, that was a very hard thing to do. And we. We all pulled it off, and we're in one piece.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I've been talking about owning my wisdom, owning what I know Owning my accomplishments. I think we as women don't tend to claim those until much later in life. I mean, I know you are probably still sitting over there going, well, don't give me credit for that yet. And we always qualify and we preface and. I know. And I don't want to speak too much, because I'm at the stage where I know some things, I've gotten some things really, really right, and I don't. I want to practice not qualifying that, you know, And I think the eight years in the White House was another. I don't want to say feather in the cap, but it was another proving point for me. And so I think I came out of that chapter in my life where it was about service. It was about. Everything that we did was about other people.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, how we showed up in the world, the sacrifices we made, the things that we didn't do, the money that we didn't make, the things we turned down. I mean, in our White House, you know, the motto was, if it's fun, we can't do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, you know, you're not there to benefit. You know, I mean, there isn't a law that prevents it, but it's just, you know, you're not there to take advantage or advantage yourself off of the White House.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and so we were very mindful about making sure that how we showed up, what we said, what we did, was representative and reflective of our role as leaders of the free world.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And thinking about the kids that were watching us and sort of when you're waking up every day realizing that every word I say not only will be dissected, but should be. And so now I have to be mindful. I can't be resentful of that fact. I have to be mindful of it and be very intentional.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it was all about other people and our children that were growing up at the time.

[A]

I mean, when you talk about it, you know, this is a service job, and when you. And you guys were already doing service before you got into this kind of, you know, the biggest role of service that you could possibly have, but it doesn't always come with a lot of visibility. So I often talk about fame as trauma. It's very traumatic to be famous, obviously. Yes. It comes with great stuff. Cool. Awesome. There's always a positive to something that you can find, but it's a very traumatizing experience. And then not only did you guys have fame, but you had power. Power also is very traumatizing for all of the reasons you just explained it comes with the responsibility. I have to make sure that because of how people perceiving me, that I'm not leveraging this. And then I gotta think about what they might not understand. They're allowing me to leverage to help protect them from themselves. So what were the systems that you guys put in place, especially for Maliyah and Sasha? Because you guys are adults, right. So it's like they coming into the room and, you know, they're shifting the room, and they're only kids. What were the systems or structures that

[B]

you put in place with them? It was really just trying to keep them focused on their lives, really. It's just. It was really about not putting that pressure on them, you know? So, for example, their job was to go to school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Go to school and be whatever age you're in, in the grade you're in. And so rarely did they go to events. They. They could never miss school or something that they had to do for school because something cool was happening at the White House. They only traveled with us on their breaks, so summers and their spring break, when they weren't at camp, you know, so the goal was to make their lives as normal as possible. Right. You go to school, you have friends, you are going to do the normal things. You're going to do that sleepover. Yes. You can go to that bar mitzvah. Yes. You want to have a few friends over to the White House, which they didn't want to do oftentimes because that didn't feel normal to them.

[A]

Right.

[B]

As they got used to it, it was like, okay, now they trust to have friends around. So I. I describe it as, you know, you have a young child now. They bump their heads, they look to you to figure out whether it really hurts, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if you are like, oh, my God, baby, you okay? You know, then they start crying, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if you're like, you're fine, you're fine. You can. You. You. You'll be okay. That's what we did for eight years. You're fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This isn't about you, you know? Yes. And in the process, they learned a lot. They learned how to be little diplomats when we were traveling. But we also had to structure it so that the State Department didn't create a schedule that was impossible for a young kid to do. You have to set your kids up to succeed. So a lot of times we're flying abroad, we land in the country, usually get there in the morning after flying overnight, you're not getting enough Rest. Because you're on the plane, you wake up in another time zone. You're stepping off the plane into work. It's like, then. Then. And then, you know, the. The whole country is there. The cameras, you know, the guards, the. The flowers being received, you know, that's. That's traumatizing. It is, you know, because you're barely awake. The first trip we took, we took them to Russia. And it was a couple of countries, but Russia was the first start. And we landed. This is when we learned they maybe slept for three hours on the plane with jet lag. So imagine, and they were like 10 and 7. And I had to go in and wake them up, knowing that they hadn't had sleep, you know? And you see your child looking up like, why are you in here? Would I have to get up? You know? And it's like, yeah, sweetie, we're gonna land in, like an hour. And you gotta get on. You gotta get dressed. You gotta get your hair done. They have. They had to be ready. And so they're up. And I was like, this is crazy. I told him, this is ridiculous. It is ridiculous that we are up at this time. It is difficult to operate with a little sleep, but you can do it, you know? You know, So I try not to penalize them. Yes. You know, And Malia, we got off, we went through the line, greeted all the. We got in the beast, the big limousine. The kids are already in there. We get in, we're pulling off, headed to the Kremlin for, like, a day. And Malia says, I've never felt this bad in my whole life. And I said, honey, that's jet lag. I was like, that's what it is. And we explained jet lag. It's like your body's asleep, but you have to be awake because it's daytime here. After that trip, we told our team, don't ever do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, do not, you know, don't plan a trip that if we land, they. They have to. The kids have to work right away. Yeah. They need to. So from then on, it was like if they. If they haven't had their sleep, they'd get in a separate car and go to the hotel.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I mean, so it's. You know, I love hearing you say that, things like that.

[A]

Because what can happen when you are a high achiever? Everybody becomes a part of it with you. The kids, you know, your partner, your mama, everybody ends up becoming subjected to.

[B]

And they didn't choose any of it.

[A]

Right. But also, this is an opportunity to learn, but then it's also an opportunity for you to learn how to use your power to create a better scenario. And I feel like I often am finding that for myself. It's so interesting when you feel like you're trying to be of service and you're trying to make a good opportunity and platform, and you think it's so much outwardly, you forget that you do have power to say, maybe this isn't the best way we do it. Actually, people need you to say, this maybe isn't the best way to go about doing this. How did you get to the point of activating and knowing that you could activate your voice like that musician?

[B]

It was just Mama Bear. And that's. I'm a Capricorn, you know.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So once I figure a thing out, then we are all gonna change. We're all gonna. You know, and we were. They're a young staff, right? Yeah. You know, you've got a lot of really smart young people. A lot of young people around us. They didn't have kids. They weren't parents. We were a young White House. You know, we came in with a lot of young energy. And so I had to sort of factor that in and explain to high driving young people in the prime of their career, you can't schedule my kids like they're adults. And you have to tell the Secret Service, you know, because they had Secret Service. We had long, sometimes messy conversations about, these are children, you know, so when they were teenagers, Saturday night is Saturday night. They will not schedule their. Their days like we do. So if you're guarding them, then you're on their schedule. And it's a teenage schedule. And it's kind of chaotic, you know, but you're making them drive in your car. So now you have to adapt to how they live. You know, they have to be polite, but they can't be held back because somebody has to make a shift change.

[A]

But that is a lot of agency. And obviously that's who we know you to be. That's what you continue to show us, and that's what you've been able to show that role of the first lady of who you know is amazing black woman in America to be. But a lot of people in that position would just be like, this is the way it is, and this is how I have to roll. Where does your agency come from? Baby? This is Icky Palma. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by the brand new drinks over at McDonald's. Okay, y', all, these drinks are officially the outside drinks of 2026. I'm talking concert season, game day season, vintage market season, picnic in the park with a cute fit and a lover season. These drinks were built occasion worth showing up for, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

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[B]

Over the course of my life and career, you know, the thing I remind people is that we were, you know, we weren't children, we were in our 40s, we were a young White House, as I said. But, but you know, I went to law school, I was working a corporate firm. I ran a nonprofit organization. I worked for the city, for the mayor. I was the assistant commissioner of planning and economic development. I worked, you know, I had a long career where I had professional and personal growth happening all the time. Where I went from assisting to running, I've run programs. I was the vice president of community affairs for the University of Chicago Hospital. You know, I ran some things and

[A]

you knew that their value is in your voice. And I think a lot of people, a lot of, you know, people coming up, they don't know the value in their voice.

[B]

Well, you gotta practice it. Yeah. And I had practice and I had an opportunity to make some mistakes as everyone a young leader's will, you know, and I was, I had professional responsibilities from the get go in my life. So coming into the White House as first Lady, I treated it like another job, like another startup organization. Like there wasn't a roadmap or a vision because you create that. And I had done that a million times over. So I kind of said, okay, what are the things that I need to accomplish that are in line with what the president is doing? How do I build my team around it? You know, what are my goals and my, you know, so that was, that was the no brainer part of the job.

[A]

Right?

[B]

The life part of the job was the new thing. And how My girls were gonna get through how I was gonna mother through this, how I was gonna make sure that my family was good, that my mother was good, that my friendships didn't fall apart, you know, that I kept in touch with my brother and that we had regular, you know. Cause if you're not regularly. Because we lived in a bubble, right? And you have a sense of bubble life, further up you go, the more isolated you can get at that bubble

[A]

life and the different languages you have to learn and the insight that you have to be able to break, you have to use to break through these barriers and these wounds. It is a lot. And then you gotta. You gotta also be like, well, I'm just me and I'm just a human person. I'm just trying to stay grounded. It is a lot.

[B]

And you have to teach people what you. Your rules are. Right. And so that takes a minute. But we did it at a high level. But there are a lot of people who could understand what that feels like. You know, I was always trying to work on gaining more and more control over my life in a position where I had to give up a lot of control.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So it was an interesting balance of when you're operating at that level and so many other people are depending on you. Even the Secret Service, like, I didn't want to push against my security because that was their job, you know, I mean, I don't want to put them in harm's way because I don't want security, because these are people with jobs and families. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm gonna help as much as I can, make their job easier. I'm gonna do that. My kids aren't right, you know, so I'll, I'll take, you know, I'll take the bullet. You know, I'm gonna be really cooperative because I can be. I'm a grown up, you know, I don't need freedom every second. I. I can operate with a clear schedule. My kids are not gonna be forced to do that in their developmental years. They need to learn to live life.

[A]

But that also means sometimes spending some time away, I'd imagine. I know you were saying you guys had a schedule of, of when you're traveling and when they are there and how it works with their school. And that's something that really rings true to me. But it's hard as a mom, right. I try to bring my son with me everywhere, but my son really likes his school. He's only three, so it's not like

[B]

a school, but it's gonna change even more and more.

[A]

And it's hard, but I know it's what's best for him. So I'm trying to make sure. I'm saying prayer every single night. You know what I mean? When you wake up in the morning, I'm seeing you before you go to school. But you don't need to be, again, subjected to my crazy life and my schedule and what I'm trying to do,

[B]

because you're gonna miss him. You know, it's like the question is, what does he need? And it's gonna change. Like, you're absolutely right. I found that until third grade, fourth grade, there is a lot of flexibility, you know, that seems to be okay.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But it depends on your kid. If your kid is like, I don't wanna be sitting in the hole in the green room, you know, with a bunch of adults when I want to play and I want to be outside, I want to go to this party.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, so it's like. Yeah. You know, and then it depends on

[A]

how many you have. Cause Eddie Murphy's kids was fine with homeschooling, but he had 10 of them.

[B]

Right. So they. Were they homeschooled. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? But Leo's just one. You know, Sasha and Malia just seemed

[B]

boring with that circle. No, no. They wanted a regular life. They always have, always did. They always chose that, and that was fine, you know, And I didn't want to make them feel guilty for wanting it. Right. But here's what we have. Mom. My mom having grandma is. You know, And I think we were both. I was blessed. You continue to be blessed. But I couldn't have done any of this without my mom. Right. Because I did not worry when she was there. And she spoiled them like Grandma. Okay. Did. You know, which helped, you know, but she also understood the rules, the structure. They weren't gonna mess with Grandma, you know, And I knew that every day that I wasn't there, they were waking up with the values that she taught me, you know, so there wasn't gonna be any inconsistencies in sort of how they were developing as people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that is a weight off as a busy mother.

[A]

Yes. Especially. Cause, you know, you might have nannies or somebody that's supporting and helping, but that's not the same thing as this is the internal structure I came from, they need to have that through.

[B]

I wanted my girls to walk into the strange house that was their home, the white house, and not be greeted by butlers and ushers which is how the house works.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I wanted them to come home to Grandma, you know. Yes. They had a butler bringing a snack.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Cause Grandma was like, you can get your snack in the kitchen. But. But she was there doing what she did. Watching Judge Judy, you know, doing her crossword.

[A]

My mom was right there. My mom and my dad had me watching Paternity court right when she was born. We love that lady.

[B]

And she loved. What's that Below deck? And every court show. Every. Every court show there was. And they come out, do homework, sit with Grandma a little bit, you know, and it was just that made the White House feel like home, whether we were there or not. And that can help. And not everybody's in that position where they have extended family or that mother figure or father figure. It becomes trickier.

[A]

But what I'm hearing you say is, even when it's a daycare, you don't have a nanny or you don't have these extra things, or maybe you don't have your mom or a parent around. It's important to say that what's best for your kid is also what's best for you. And making sure that you don't feel that. Like it's okay. You don't need to feel guilty about doing what you got to do to

[B]

make sure that's right.

[A]

They have the best life.

[B]

The. I think the damage comes in is when you parent out of guilt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, no, still parent them. Don't be like, mom, sorry. It's like, no, I'm not sorry. You know, and you don't need to be sorry. You're fine. You would love. You know, you. You know, it's. It's like, again, you bumped your head. This is an interesting circumstance. We tell them how to feel about it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We model how they should feel about it. That's why it's like, if mom has to work, you know.

[A]

I love what you're saying, because that's a great scale as well, is watching you guys also watching your parents be leaders of the free world and deal with so much structurally, whether it's misogyny, being black, systems of power. That must have been also a lot to think about. My kids are watching me, and I need to show them how to feel about that. Because I think about that with my mom and my dad all the time. Growing up in Illinois, honey, every area was segregated. And my experience, my first experience with those kinds of structures, I was only five years old, going to private school, and I had to learn from My father. That's why I know there's no man that I respect more, because he showed me what it feels like when I bump my head. And it's okay. I'm good. I'm good. And I know how to move forward.

[B]

And also that none of this is about you. You know, this is their issue. Right. And that's where conversation. Look, I don't care how busy I was or we were growing up in our family, in our household before the White House, we talked.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and that's another thing you gotta know. You can talk to kids at all ages and explain so much to them that they'll get. You can't. You know, you have to alter terminology. Don't give them too much information way before they're really asking for it. But giving your kids some context about what's going on, explaining the real for them so that they don't feel crazy and that they don't feel alone in it. I always had that. I grew up in a household where kids were allowed to ask questions, have feelings, had to be respectful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Get a whooping if you weren't. Right.

[A]

But I hate those damn whoopings. Those are too much. Glad we retired them collectively.

[B]

But I still like kids to know what they are. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I just want you to know

[A]

I was trying to reach so far in my bag with this whole gentle parenting thing. Like, what can I. How can I get my son together?

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Because these little boys. So I took back to my old. My grandmama thing, and I'd start doing this, like, I'm a pinch you.

[B]

Oh, I do.

[A]

The pinching is kind of like.

[B]

You know, what the girls always talk about is that underarm grab, you know, like right here. It's like, come here, come here. And it's just a little. It's like, oh. And you see their face, and it's like, don't say nothing.

[A]

There has to be some physical touch.

[B]

And then they were there to be a little bit, you know? Cause if you get in there early. Yes. Then they know that it's possible. And now you can be like, now you have a look, you have something to reinforce the look. So gentle, you know? I don't know about completely gentle.

[A]

It don't work.

[B]

But I do believe in fear.

[A]

Yes. I mean, but also, I think about this with kids, too. Right. Where this started to hit me as a parent, which is the world's gonna show you consequence in a way that I have no control over.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So if I don't teach you A level of understanding, then I risk your life, damn it. So it's like, you know.

[B]

And, you know, look, I think I gave out one or two spankings.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it was psychological warfare. Because I was like, I shouldn't have to hit this child. I am smarter. You know, so consequences are real. You know? And the kids talk about, you know, you go out with a group of kids. Cause we were always with them. But you tell them we're going in a store if I have to call you once or twice or a birthday party, and I call you at Chuck E. Cheese and you up in that ball thing, and I want to call and you come back so I know you're not snatched. And if I call you more than twice and you don't come back, there was only two times. And I've told other parents this. I said in the car, if I have to tell you something more than once, we're leaving.

[A]

Oh, that's the worst. Yeah. It's true, though.

[B]

But if you say it, you gotta do it. And they still remember the time we left snatched up, because it was almost a plan. Because I wanted them to know when I say the day will be over.

[A]

Yeah, it's over.

[B]

It's over. Right? They remember that to that day. And they got lectured all the way home from the party before the cake. They were like, no cake. It's like, mm, no, you don't get to stay. And then they, you know, got home. Home wasn't fun.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, you didn't go home to have fun. Cause you just got in trouble.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. That was me with that phone. My mom and daddy took that phone. Oh, my gosh. I was on the floor rolling round. It was bad. That technology thing that really helped and came into hand with the parents. They were like, give me your phone.

[B]

No, Sadie, please. You know, you just find the thing that they want the most and take it from them.

[A]

You've always shaped culture. However, you guys have always been under a magnifying glass. So a lot of times I feel like you probably had to be careful of what to share, when to share, because safety's involved. But now you share so much with us. We get you on podcasts, you know, books, television. You know, how did you develop the relationship to that without the fears or the concern of safety and speaking too much.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it's a delicate balance, but I think in the early stages, before people knew us. Right. I mean, as they were coming to know us, what I learned is that if. If we don't define ourselves on our own terms. Other people will define us. Right. So sharing to me became a necessary. I don't want to say defense. Yes. It's like, you all have to get to know me because they want to turn me into an angry black woman. Right. And so, you know, I hate that movie. Yeah, right. You know, it's like that movie. It's so true and it's so old and so tired, you know, seriously. But there are. There were assumptions, biases, prejudices that were slung our way that I think required us to be known fairly quickly. So. And I, you know, look, we like who we are. I mean, there. Not much to. Not much to hide, you know, But I also believe that in these roles, it was so important for kids, our people, folks who had never been in these positions before, to see us in our full selves, you know, because it's very easy when you are up in that territory for a child to look and go, well, I could never do that. I could never be that. There must be something different or special about them. So a lot of our sharing was like, wait, wait, wait. Let me tell you how I grew up, you know, so that you see, you don't just see Michelle and Barack Obama, but you see little Michelle and little Barack and all the challenges and the mistakes that we made and the fears that we had. Because I think that helps us connect with people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't think we were ever really afraid of sharing, you know, because I think that that's how you relate to people. You know, my first campaign stops were all in Iowa and just telling people. Let me explain who we are as people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I'm not going to talk to you about policy because right now you don't even know me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So let me tell you about how we live, how we grew up, the food we ate, the. The values that we were taught by. Let me tell you about my father. Right. Just like I felt the way you felt about your father about mine. Working class guy, but smart and sharp and honest and kind and wise and patient in ways.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like most people, a lot of people's fathers, you know, but that's the way we connect to other people. We don't connect. Like, here's my resume. I went to Princeton. I went to Harvard. That, to me, separates us because those are rare experiences that actually don't say anything about you other than you got into that school. Yes. But it doesn't say what kind of person you are.

[A]

And then it also allows people to be becoming beside you, which I think again, that tied to becoming is so incredible because it's really true. And that's where we are now in our relationship to media, to personalities, to identity in general, is proximity. Who are you becoming and how do I become alongside you? That is the point of connection.

[B]

And I think sharing parts of ourselves, to me is. It's the gift that I can give. You know, it's sort of mentoring en masse in a way. Right. Because how do I pick a mentee?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, I mean, the girls want to know, but I'm saying I can't have just one mentee. I'm trying to reach many.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So that means I have to put some stuff out there in a bigger, broader way. That's how I thought about writing my memoir.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, let me really tell you who I am. Let me let you in, you know, And I don't want to talk just about the White House years, because that's just the dot on the I of my life. It is one little. It's one eight year period. The White House didn't make me, it didn't break me. But this whole arc of a life that started on 7436 South Euclid. Oh, I, you know, the core of who I am and who we all are starts at those kitchen tables and the roots and the stories in the neighborhood and the first fight you had and the teacher that didn't believe in you and you know, that whooping you got and how it made you feel. It's like those are the things that make people see themselves in you. Right. And then go, ah, the other lessons now make sense.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I can connect to the other lessons. And so the podcast for me is just another platform for that where people, if they choose to. Cause you don't have to, you don't have to tune in. We hope you do, but. But you know, it's about conversation, connection. A little advice. The stories that we tell just by somebody listening can go, oh, that happened to me.

[A]

I would love to know your relationship to high achieving because I think the generation is struggling so much with hyper functioning and many of us do it really, really well. You know, this idea that performance is this adaptive intelligence that can outrun you. When do you know and how did you define?

[B]

Good question.

[A]

What's you and what is your survival skills? Baby, this is Icky Palma. Yeah. There is a very specific kind of joy that happens when you get three generations of your family all under one roof. And if you know you know, I'm talking about mom teaching the grandkids something in the backyard, Daddy on the grill doing what he does best, the cousins running around, being feral in the best way possible. And let me tell you, that kind of moment, you're not really getting that in a hotel. In a hotel, everybody ends up in their own room, doors closed, doing their own thing. Starts to feel more like a logistics exercise than a family memory. But when I book a stay on Airbnb, like when I went to Big Bear, ugh, it's a whole different vibe. You get a real home in a real neighborhood with enough space so nobody's on top of each other, but still close enough that everybody's part of the same story. And that's what makes it special. Spring is the perfect time to do it before summer gets hectic and everybody's schedules take over. Find a home on Airbnb and get your whole family under one roof. Trust me, that's where the magic is. There's one phrase that sums up my conversation with Michelle Obama. Endlessly inspiring and so real. I truly don't know how she manages to be so many things to so many people all at once. But what I do know is that she does it with style, grace, and so much honesty. Y' all are getting to meet a whole new side of Michelle. How she's choosing herself, embracing joy and defining life on her own terms. And trust me, this season only gets better from here. Okay, so make sure you're subscribed to Spotify Premium so you can listen to every episode with no ad breaks. Get into it, baby.

[B]

I think a lot of that comes with growth and age and wisdom. I mean, you know, like some lessons. You know, I could sit here and tell you a thing, but you sort of have to go through it. And for me, I just sort of went through it. I was a high achieving box checker my entire life. There's still. I'm trained in that. Like, I know, it's like, I'm gonna get it done. I'm gonna be there early, I'm gonna over prepare, I'm gonna prepare. Send me more. And why isn't that here? And I gotta get this right in my note cards. They have to be right. I know you were readjusting note cards and we were in the back going, yeah, we know. My team was like, oh, Kiki, like you. You know, up until the bitter end is, where's that note card? On the thing. It had the three points that I wanted to have right here.

[A]

That's baked in did it last night.

[B]

And preparing for these things, it's like, I want to know who I'm sitting down with. I don't want to miss a thing. It's like, I don't. Sorry, that's you. You know, and so you learn to kind of come to grips with that kind of, you know, give that part of yourself a nice warm hug, you know, take care of that part of yourself because. Cause she's a little crazy, you know, and then you start. And then you have to laugh at that part of yourself to not take it so seriously. Because not everybody has that muscle, you know, and not be too judgy about the people that don't have it, you know, because it is kind of a thing you always had. I was always that kid. I think that was a temperament. So I think some of it is like temperamentally maybe. Cause I'm a Capricorn or, you know, I don't know what it is, but I don't know how much I have to do with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, So I try to be in it, but not of it completely. Now I'm trying to mindfully let go of some of that too. Just for balance, you know. Cause it's exhausting.

[A]

It is.

[B]

And it's not always necessary or Right. You know, and that's our battle.

[A]

And I think that that's. In a world where people are dealing with hyper functioning, the concept of being a high achiever and succeeding at this level is the only thing deemed as good. But it comes with its challenges and it's not the only way to find value. Everybody thinks they want to be the president or the CEO or the entrepreneur, but you might not have the temperament. What do we say to those of us and how do we also encourage that other side that exists here? Everybody's not a high achievement. You don't need be. So then how do you find then value?

[B]

Oh, oh, it's everywhere else, you know, I mean, the thing I learned is like my happiness is. Is not tied to what I've achieved. It's like, okay, that. That's nice, you know, and whatever it is in me goes, okay. But look, and I have met tons of overachievers. They are no happier. Many are unhappy people. Right. And that's really one of the messages. Right. It's like, you want to show up well in this world, but if you don't have balance in your life, you know, I don't care. You know, now you. Now you're just playing out some habit. It's like, you know, not just like smoking, but if you don't have control over it, you know, it can be detrimental. So I've learned over time to be really thoughtful about what truly makes me happy. I started doing that even when I went to law school, worked at a law firm, looked up and I was like, I don't even like the law.

[A]

Yeah. How did I get here?

[B]

I don't even. I hated the corporate practice of law. It was boring. It didn't involve people. To me, it was temperamentally. It was just too staid. That was the first time I realized my perfectionism got me. I spent money on a degree and I'm glad I got it, but it had nothing to do with what I wanted to be. And because I could do it, I did it.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And then I had to start thinking differently. Not what I could do because my hyper perfectionism. You put me in the desert and I'll figure out how to make it work. Right now I had to figure out, what do I care about? What do I want? Who do I want to be? And I think that helped me early on realizing that I needed to be very clear about what I cared about. And I had to figure that out, you know, and that's why public service means so much to me. I mean, I left the law, started working in community service and working in city government. And it just. It just spoke to me. Like being able to do stuff where I could see an impact on other people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mattered way more to me and gave me way more joy. My connection to people is so much more important to me than money. Achieve, raw, just achievement, you know? So it took me a second, you know, and you kind of have to slow down and get off of your path in order to give yourself a minute to really reflect on what that is for you. Because what it is for me is

[A]

different, you know what I mean? Or you feel called to be, to be a steward, to be a voice in that.

[B]

To hear a call, you gotta be quiet, right? And overachievers. We're so busy sometimes that the noise drowns out the call, you know?

[A]

Yeah, I'm in that phase. I'm in that phase, especially having done something for so many years, you know what I mean? I think my version of that, of law, would be entertainment, performing for so long. And I've always loved it. I'm sure there are things you always love about law.

[B]

No, there was nothing but. Yeah, but I understand, you know, that

[A]

where there's, you know, there's always that thing that I love. However you Know, for me it's like I'm already at the 20 year plus mark. For me, it's a midlife crisis moment where it's like, we've done this, you know, I've gone around the sun twice. The world has loved me and hated me multiple times. I know what it was like to be true JacksonVP I know what it's like to be Baby, this is Kiki Palmer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it becomes a question of what is that true? What were the years that I put in? What was the skill that was actually being fine tuned in this moment that represents where I'm going next.

[B]

So how are you thinking about it now?

[A]

I'm thinking about it. Well, I relate so much to you in terms of community. I feel that stewardship, the next generation, creating infrastructure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the basis of a community is what we don't have enough of.

[B]

Not saying that, Especially in the business.

[A]

Especially in the business. So I think I find myself feeling like. And I've always felt like it can't be just for me. You know what I mean? And I feel that now I'm understanding that as long as I can take what I went through and create a system of structure for others to have a blueprint to work from, then that means it was worth it. That to me feels recursive. That to me feels like it compounds. But I gotta be quiet, like you said, to know what those exact steps are and the obligations that one has in the midst of all of that, it becomes, you know, it becomes difficult. So I'm in a very crucial time. So I needed this talk with you today.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, to understand how to navigate my turning point.

[B]

We've talked about this community piece and the organizing and the more young people in the business that I meet, the more that I realize that you got. All of you guys are spinning and moving really, really fast in your isolated bubbles and you didn't have the time, especially young actors, to learn the importance and value of networking. And networking seems a little bit too professional. But creating relationships with each other, you know, real, just straight up, not we're gonna do a deal or project together, but let's get some coffee and come over to my house and let's, you know, let's get to know one another. Right. Not for the purposes of a project, but a purpose of your peace of mind and having community and. And other people that you can just go, whew, this happened today. And sometimes there's no answer, but it's sharing it with somebody who really, really Knows. And it takes a minute to do that. And I see how difficult it is because I know a little bit about what you doing now. You got this project and blank movie, and I just saw you on 12 other things. Yeah, it's like Kiki again. Literally giving Kiki again love Kiki again. That movie again. I love that movie. You know, but it's like. And your mother, you know, and you're trying to, you know, Ann and an. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like, we're talking. There are chapters for that too. So you also have to forgive yourself. You know, I mean, maybe this isn't the quiet time for you. You'll know it. Because in this business, you also got to get while you can. You know, everybody's profession is different. You know, I just hope people listening is like, we're talking about where we are, what we did. It's the process of figuring that out for yourself in your profession. But talking to you, it's like, yeah, you're at an interesting, wonderful peak in life. And even though you feel like, you know, you're having a midlife crisis, you are a baby.

[A]

Goo Goo Gaga.

[B]

Yes. And enjoy it. You know, keep the pacifier in your mouth and enjoy it. And understand that you. You can be a bunch of different things. You still have. You got five more careers to go. Right. So that's the overachiever part. Because then you'll turn that into like, I gotta figure this out right now. And I was like, I was doing that last time.

[A]

It's like I came from a conference. I was like, now my next speech. Yes, it's crazy how he up, you know, But I love just. I love everything you say and the way that you've reinforced the conversation around grace and the grace that I should have with myself. And, you know, I was talking to my parents last night, too, and saying that so much of what I'm spinning about could also be. Doesn't have to always be compressed into this, but can be simply supported by, I'm grateful for what I've done today.

[B]

Yeah, forget that. That's good practice. Yeah, that's a good thing to start practicing because there's a lot of gratitude for you to have in this moment, and you're somebody's mother. That's. That's a huge emotional suck in the best possible way, really. But that's why I want to talk about, like, let's talk about the. Yes. The drainage of that other living human being that you care the most about.

[A]

Girl. I seen somebody trying to talk about, by the way, Rihanna looked amazing at the Met gala, but I seen somebody trying to talk about her. I'm like, she got three kids.

[B]

She got three kids.

[A]

The hell you mean? I'm glad she got outside today.

[B]

Really? Three kids.

[A]

You know, you got these kids, they're great, but it's. It is real. There's no moment where you're not resting. There's no moment where you're not worrying or thinking and making sure they're okay. That. Do they feel loved.

[B]

It's gonna get now as they grow, you know, how are they learning? What's school like, who. What are they interested in? You know, who are they becoming, how I'm helping them, you know, and then they, you know, maybe they. Maybe a boy or girl shows up, you know, and now there's that stage of it, somebody hurt their feelings. You know, it's just, this is why the freedom is that, like, I'm on the other end of that. And they're 28 and 20. How 20? I have to do the math. I know.

[A]

It's always like that.

[B]

23 years apart. 20. 25.

[A]

25 and 28.

[B]

Yeah. 25 and 28.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's crazy that there is just a different freedom. You will feel you're not close to that. It'll. It'll happen. It's gonna happen fast. Yes. But you know, you also have to understand that that is sitting there. And you are, you're a single parent too, for now, right?

[A]

Yes. Yes. Yeah. My son's dad's in the military. You know, we're not together, but it's still, it's even more distance when you in Germany and he, you know, I'm all he has presently.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. So be mindful of that as you start saving the world. Right. You gotta take care of him first. And so the time for you to maybe actualize some of those other things may not be in this season. And that's something that I learned. You know, when I was a parent and Barack was running for. He was a state senator. That meant he was in Springfield, Illinois all the time. And then he was a US Senator. That meant he was in DC and we had little kids and I wasn't driving as hard in my career.

[A]

I didn't stop it.

[B]

Right. Yeah. And I almost did. I almost quit and said, trying to juggle all this and the worry about my kids, I will just call it a day. But my mom retired and she stepped in. I got another high profile job where I negotiated a different level of flexibility.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I didn't stop And I tell a lot of young women, young parents, is that with parenting you may have to take your foot off the gas, but you don't have to brake. You know, just slow down and don't be frustrated with yourself because you're slowing down a little bit. Right. You don't have to get out the car and lock it up and put it in the garage.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But it's okay to slow down a little bit. And I found that I did that, had to do it for my girls. And I'm still here with all these accomplishments and still more to come. That's why, like, if we're blessed, life is long, you know, so just remember there, there are these chapters, really these chapters. You don't get it. This is. You don't get it all at once. You don't get to be a great mother, have eight jobs and then add two more.

[A]

I love when you've spoken about this because you've, you've talked about that. That whole you can have it all, that's a lie. And it's not always enough to lean in because that doesn't work all the time in, you know, on the becoming book tour. I want to talk about that because that's also what I'm waking up to, you know, And I think most 30 somethings, you know, we felt that it's sobering to realize that truth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you believe that what kind of keeps you going for a long time is this utopian belief, you know, like you, Dorothy in a Wizard of Oz, you know what I mean? That things are going to, you know, if I'm just good enough, if I'm just kind enough, if I'm just, you know, the math doesn't actually. Math though.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The equation is always changing, you know what I mean?

[B]

And so are the variables for women, for minorities, for, you know, you know, not to, you know, diss on white men. You know, you guys are good. But I, I think there are barriers and roadblocks for the others. Sure. That, you know, the world isn't fully set up for us for the math. To math. And that's just, that's not in our heads, you know, that's not, you know, there's no affirmative, you know, there's no need for affirmative action. Yeah, no, there is. There's a lot, there's a lot of, you know, disadvantage and edge and you know, that that makes it even harder.

[A]

Yeah. Even if you just take the emotion out of it. And I talk about shapes, it was built for rectangles. I'm A circle. That's it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

We can remove color, we can remove sex. We can move all of it. This is built for a rectangle.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I'm a circle trying to push through it. And I actually.

[B]

I'm fitting right. This hurts, though, because you're an overachiever, you know, because you're a perfectionist, and because you can, you know, that's the other downside of being overachieving perfectionist. You wind up doing stuff that a lot of people can't and shouldn't be trying to do, but you can do it.

[A]

And then you realize there's also a whole. Not only do you realize you're being the example, you're being the model minority or the model exception in that regard. You're.

[B]

You're.

[A]

You're now the example that, see, roses can grow from concrete, which actually, I don't want to affirm that because everybody deserves grass.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

And then also on the other side of it, you realize that that still is just one shallow version of it, that there's actually a whole other side of it that you then meet. How do you still find the courage and the faith in humanity? I mean, to still have that desire when you feel like there's always one? You know what I mean? It could be discouraging.

[B]

Oh, you know, cause of Maya and Rosa and Nelson, you know, I mean, shoot, we're still sitting really pretty, you know, in the context of history, you know, which is why we need to know our history and our meaning. The country's history, the world's history.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, that context helps because we are the products of the advantages and the struggle and the hard work, you and I sitting here.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, where we've been, where we still can go. Yeah, it's hard, and it's harder for us. Everything hasn't been fixed, but we are moving towards better. And there's some bumps and roadblocks. You know, the ascent is never a straight shot. It goes up and down as long as the. The projection is heading upward. And we're living proof that it is. And so we have to be mindful of that even as we work to improve it or not accept what is here. But, you know, shoot, humanity did this. You know, humanity got us here, all of us together. You know, white, black, the circles, the triangles, and the rectangles all worked on. You know, some of the rectangles were like, man, this ain't right for the circles. And I'M willing to, you know, sacrifice a little bit and change a little bit and fight for the circle. And the triangles are like, yeah, we're in it too. You know, that is our humanity that is happening. And we have to look at each other and give one another the benefit of the doubt, that we're circles and rectangles. But you're looking out, you know, you might not know how to look out for me every time. And maybe sometimes your interests might not completely align with mine. Cause you still have your interests as a rectangle. Rectangles are still trying to be rectangles.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

You know, I get it. You know, it's like, yeah, you know,

[A]

we all gotta go in the box, though.

[B]

We gotta. We all have to go in the box.

[A]

You know?

[B]

You know, so how do we do it? And we're working on it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, humanity is where I know you see it every day.

[A]

I do, and I appreciate that. Again, this is what you were talking about before with the whole community connection and the conversations, because it is for you, because we're having the same thing. And from your vantage point. From my vantage point. But we're meeting at the same medium of these emotions, of these structural what we consider limitations or just uphill battles in the human condition. And it just affirms, you're not crazy. It is tough, but you can do it. We can do it.

[B]

And it is. And it is hard. And more people. We. There need to be more opportunities for more people to make it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And right now, we're in a situation where we've made some choices, all of us, where we're now at a point where fewer people are getting a chance to make it. And I'm talking about circles, squares, and triangles, you know, And I think that's the problem, is that rectangle thinks, you know, well, if the decision was made for me, it's really gonna help me. And in these times, it's like, nah, you getting screwed too, Greta.

[A]

And as James Baldwin always said, you always were.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Always becoming clear now. Because the places where.

[B]

Well, then, hopefully it's becoming clear now.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I don't wish, you know, hard times on folks, but I do wish clarity. Yeah. You know, and context and understanding so that we can get to the business of really continuing to approve things for all of humanity.

[A]

I'm talking about everyone to keep that branding alive. When we didn't have social media and you couldn't see that everybody wasn't living the same, despite what you were told, they were Supposed to have. We can see the different parts of the America where. Wait a minute. This is like a harmony corride film. What's going on? You know what I mean? There's a lot more precious and a lot more gummo or whatever you call it happening than you would expect it to be. Everybody ain't Full house or step by Step. So, you know, that's how they made it seem when we were kids.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But, you know, it's not true. And so, yeah, hopefully that does wake everybody up to the realities.

[B]

And hopefully we can have some compassion for people when we talk about racism when we do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're ignoring so many white folks, so many people living in rural America, so many people who are struggling even worse than many of us. And it's sort of like, well, you can't just label everybody in a certain way. People's beliefs. Anger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Grief, resentment. Comes oftentimes from a place of real unfairness and injustice.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Inequality. And so we all have to give one another grace and always wonder, why are you so mad?

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and not. Don't. I know. It's not about me. So let me help. Let me try to work to understand why you're. What's going on in your life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, and look with that level eye of compassion. It's like you are. You are so afraid of something.

[A]

It takes a lot of compassion, and it takes a lot of courage to hold space for yourself and for somebody else, Especially somebody that maybe is not holding space for you. But it is required. Yes, it is required if we want to move to the next level and actually solve the issue or be a part of solving the issues. And so I find myself trying to maintain the practices and the skill set to be able to handle that.

[B]

But this isn't an assignment for you. Let's be clear, Kiki.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's right. I'm coming back to it. I'm feeling this.

[B]

It's like, okay, now we're not gonna walk away from this conversation with you staying up at night.

[A]

I'm ready.

[B]

Going. Okay, now I'm gonna have a dream.

[A]

I'm ready.

[B]

Let's be very clear. That's why we all have to do the work so that Keke isn't trying to do everything by herself.

[A]

It's so real. It is so real. I know my time is running out. I'm really, really sad about this.

[B]

I am sad.

[A]

I do want to show love to my pictures real quick.

[B]

What you got?

[A]

I got pictures and I got A game.

[B]

The time has happened already.

[A]

I know, girl. We could talk. Let's talk about this photo of you in prison that looks like anybody today in 2026. This is TIME.

[B]

Those little cheeks.

[A]

It's like, how did you know? It's almost like you knew you were gonna be the first lady already.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Cause look, you look so perfect.

[B]

I don't know. That happened to be a good day. You know, the brands. Yeah. Little Levi, little. You know that my college days. This was. Must have been. I graduated in 85. I was probably a 86. That was probably 83, 84. It was the preppy stage. Right. The Lacoste bag and the, you know, and it's just, you know, I was broke. So you have just enough money to get one piece that sets it over the top, you know, it's so funny, my girl.

[A]

One of our producers, Alanike, has a photo that almost looks identical to that.

[B]

We were all looking like that.

[A]

And it's literally 20, 26.

[B]

She's literally just Levi jeans. And the fashions return. They come back.

[A]

Speaking of fashions.

[B]

Oh, they're.

[A]

You've done some incredible fashion. This Balenciaga look, one of my favorites right here is you wearing Sergio Hudson. And it actually worked with the mask. That's hard to pull off.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard to pull off.

[A]

Do you feel like fashion was a form of a strength or a source of strength for you when you were in the White House?

[B]

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, fashion was another political tool, I think. And for us, that was part of what. Well, everything had to have meaning and purpose. Right. Because it's like. We also felt like eight years. So everything we do, we gotta get it in, you know, we gotta get in. We gotta say, be saying something. And fashion was a part of that. You know who I wore? The designers. I wore the fact that I would wear Target as well as, you know, J.

[A]

Crew. We loved wearing J.

[B]

Crew as well, you know, because that's how we all dress, you know, women. It's like fashion isn't just about Balenciaga and the. That crazy expensive boot, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, you can turn a dress from Target into something. Put a belt on it. This is what. This is what real fashion is when you don't, you know, when you don't have resources, you know, and you can still take a thing, which is how all these women, all our mothers and aunties and the women at church, making their clothes and putting on a hat.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Looking at a magazine and getting A little inspiration, but turning it into their own. And, you know, we wanted to make that statement through the clothes that I wore.

[A]

The look Michelle Obama. I also want to point out this beautiful shirt that you wore in South Africa. I think you were there. Oh, gosh. With your mother here on the blouse.

[B]

I'd have to get a reminder whether the designer was South African or from the continent. Right. But yes, my stylist, Mary Meredith Koop. You know, we were in South Africa, so usually I didn't wear foreign designers as first lady because I was always like, I need to rep American designers of all backgrounds. So this trip, we were like, yeah, let's find the hot new African designers. And that was one where he, you know, worked on prints and could take a picture. And Meredith kind of surprised me with this print, you know, taking a picture of my mom, and I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing.

[A]

It's really, really beautiful.

[B]

Really a beautiful tribute and just super fly and super comfortable.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I know. I gotta get out of here. Congratulations again on the podcast, imo, with you and Craig. That's really. It's really taken off, and I had so much fun.

[B]

Same with you.

[A]

Who would be a guest that you would want on there that you haven't had?

[B]

Oh, my God. We just got started. Dolly Parton. So let me give a shout out for Dolly. RuPaul is one of those. Celine.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I could go on and on. I think some of the younger, new.

[A]

I wonder if Catherine Jackson would come over there and talk to you.

[B]

You know, I mean, I'm still about making sure people feel. If they're not comfortable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, because that's also part of it. It's like our podcasts are about conversation and vulnerability. So people. I don't. You know, if you're not ready to. I'd love to talk to Diana Ross.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. That has to happen. It'd be great to have her and Tracy together.

[B]

It would be. It would be. But, you know, I understand people are in their spaces and, you know, so we, you know, that I think part of what makes our. We're trying to make our table a very safe table.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where people really feel like we're just talking like this. Just like you're. You're doing so that people feel safe to share because there's so much. There's so much teaching that can be done through that sharing, but you have to feel comfortable and not feel like somebody's gonna. Is trying to trip you. Up and get you. Get, get you. I, I've been in those interviews, and they are irritated dating. It's like, I'll talk to you, but don't, don't lie to me. Yeah. You know, don't be nasty. Yeah.

[A]

Because what's the point? It actually doesn't get. It doesn't service anyone or anything.

[B]

No. No.

[A]

So, okay, I gotta let you go. But I love to play games with my guests.

[B]

And you are.

[A]

Let's play. You are. When they go low, I go high Queen. So I figured we put a little game together like that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. So we're gonna run through some real life scenarios, and you're gonna tell me, are we going low? Are we going high?

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

First one, A co worker takes credit for your work.

[B]

Oh, you going low or you going high? You know, I'd like to think that I can go high in that moment because I'm an overachiever. People will know what I do. You know, it's like, you gonna know what I do. I'm going to show you I don't have to. And, and people will see that you didn't do it. So a lot of times it's better to let other people see that thing to discover it. Then you be the one going, no, that's what I. Because now you in the fight. Now you're in the fight with, well, now I got to prove you wrong. Now I'm arguing with this person. Right. So I'd rather let my work speak for itself. And there's more satisfaction on the other end when somebody else comes to you and says, I know he's lying, you know? Cause I know what you can do, you know? And it's almost like a triple win when that happens because, you know, they're looking bad. So I'd still, I would go high.

[A]

Ooh, I would go high. That's a hard thing to do. But what you just said was. I mean, that's the thing when people discover it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Someone shares something, you told them in private.

[B]

Oh, it depends on what it is, you know? I mean, some private stuff is like some, you know, when you're talking to your friends, you're like, you gonna say something?

[A]

But it, Sometimes that's why you tell them.

[B]

Really? Really. And sometimes it's like, I shouldn't have told you that. Yeah. You know, so it's on me. So sometimes it's on me. But if it was, if it was something hurtful, I'd, I'd go low. I, I, I might go low.

[A]

Might get them together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. You're being judged more for how you look than what. What you said.

[B]

I'm going low with my team, you know, just to get it out, you know. Cause there's, There are places to go low. Right. But publicly I'm gonna. And I'm gonna resolve. That's not about me, that's about them. And then publicly I'll go high. That's also something I say to people. Like, sometimes you just need. You go to your mama to go low. Right? It's like. And don't you have those conversations? You come back.

[A]

I just did the other day and I felt like. Like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Like this is the whole point of safe space. The safe space is so you can be human.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And not always have to be.

[B]

That's right. We used to do some stuff when we do comms prep. Crystal knows where, you know, you run over the questions, especially with, you know, mainstream media, just so that I could get a chance to give the answer I would like to give, you know, and I would do it in front of the team. It's like. But what I would want to say is like, the bubble we talk about, this is the answer that would shut down the presidency. Imagine if I said this and then team would laugh and then they'd be like, but you're not gonna say that, right? Oh my gosh. Maybe you don't know. So we try to have fun with it, you know, laugh about it.

[A]

That made me think about that movie with Viola Davis when she was portraying you.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I didn't watch that. That's the one thing I can't do. Okay, okay.

[A]

Love Viola, do.

[B]

And I love to get Viola.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

We can talk about that scene

[A]

then.

[B]

I'll watch it. Oh my gosh.

[A]

I'm on the floor. Okay. Someone calls you too much in a professional setting, they put you on blast.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

So let's say you were at a, you know, let's say we had a conference meeting, you know, or you're having a conversation and they go, this is like not a good version of it. They're like, you're crazy. Like they undermine you. Oh, in front of people?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, because then now I've been undermined. It do I go up there on the stage.

[B]

That would probably be. Go high in public, pull them aside. It'd be like with the girls, be a verbal kind of snatching up, you know, just so that they could look me in the eye. You Know, and don't do that. Like I know what you're doing. You know, I'd probably give a medium warning with a little touch of going low, that arm grab, that little arm grab. And you know, with hopes that that would straighten it out.

[A]

Yeah. Cause that's tough. That's tough when people act silly in public and they leave you.

[B]

Yeah. I've never had that experience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's also kind of setting the tone that you might do that, but you're not gonna do that to me, you know, And I think that that's okay. You know, you lead with your chest a little bit in life so that, you know, you just sort of set the tone for. I don't. Don't play with me like that. Yeah. You know, and. Yeah, that, that's learning your voice over time. You know, I think you, you earn some of that. Sometimes in the process of earning it, you gotta suck it up, you know, because maybe you don't have the leverage. You know, maybe they coming after you because they can. Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

All of this is circumstantial, but, you know, sometimes you gotta pull a person up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do a little. Little love. That's where it's a little bit of everything. A little low, a little medium, maybe a little high. Later on down the line, you come back on them.

[A]

I've done that.

[B]

Yeah, come back.

[A]

I've done that. Okay. Okay. Last two. Someone misinterprets your words in a public space. I'm sure that you experience this a lot.

[B]

Yeah. But I think you can go high and check a person. You know, I, I would. You know, going high doesn't mean correcting the truth. It's also tone how you do it, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Just because, you know, you don't have to double back down and hip hop and everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, just be mindful. You. Again, going low. Going high isn't about becoming a victim. You know, I mean, that, that's not the intent of the. You know, it's not like just taking mess. It's just, just. But it's how you do it, you know, when you do it. Right. And what are the words that you're using? Right. You can check somebody with a smile.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you can make a point, you know, with a joke, which we. I do. I use humor all the time. I talked about a bunch of people here, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Without using names, you know. Yes. I mean, and to me, that's a version of high. You can make a point without bringing us all down with you.

[A]

Last one. A close friend downplays your success as luck.

[B]

Oh, I don't care about that. You know, I would definitely go high because my life would speak to that. You know, it'd be like, just watch me boo, as they say. Okay.

[A]

Watch me boo. Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

[B]

I've always enjoyed talking to you. I am so proud of you. But, girl, you can't save everybody. So one step at a time, conquer, you know, small steps to all of it. But I love you so much.

[A]

I love you so much. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yay. You the dad now. You. That conversation just gave me so much hope. It's a reminder that growth doesn't stop no matter where you are in life. As long as you're being true to yourself and doing your best to show up fully as yourself. It's not about being perfect. It's about being real. I'm just so thankful to Michelle Obama for being here with me today. I truly, truly appreciate her. And thank you all for watching. We'll see you next time on baby. This is keke.