← Baby, this is Keke Palmer
Baby, this is Keke Palmer
The Rules, the Shade, and the Truth About the Playboy Fantasy with Holly Madison
00:45:43
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- [00:01]
Keke Palmer
This episode is presented in partnership with Airbnb. Y' all ready to celebrate independence in style? Get yourself a guest favorite spot and make your summer memories in one of the most loved homes on Airbnb. Now let's roll. Okay, y' all, Today's guest is someone who flipped the fantasy on its head. You think you know Holly Madison from the glitz, the Playboy parties, the reality shows. But, baby, that's only the surface. Holly has been telling the real story, the one about power, performance, and what happens when you stop pretending everything's perfect. She's a best selling author, a mama, a survivor, and now an advocate for using her voice to expose the truth behind the fantasy and what it cost her. And let me tell you, she does not hold back. Baby, this is Keke Palmer and baby, this is Holly Madison. No matter what we doing in the car, just chilling, pop on Amazon music, sit back and listen. Life, love, sex, science, covering it all, especially money always evolved. No matter what it is, we gonna make it make sense. Nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kings. So grab you a drink and a snack you enjoy and get into the vibe that only one you know it's your girl. This is Kiki. Baby, this is Kiki Palma. Yeah. Hey. How are you? You look so fabulous.
- [01:24]
Holly Madison
Thank you. So do you.
- [01:25]
Keke Palmer
Thank you for coming to the show.
- [01:26]
Holly Madison
Thank you. I wore the worst shoes for a walkout. I love these shoes.
- [01:29]
Keke Palmer
Oh, my gosh, they're so cute.
- [01:30]
Holly Madison
Thank you. I've had them forever, but I feel like they. They just, like, stretched out a little bit. So I've been, like, bracing myself.
- [01:35]
Keke Palmer
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. When you got to run in the two big hills. Yeah, we've all been there. How you doing? How have you been?
- [01:41]
Holly Madison
Great. How are you?
- [01:42]
Keke Palmer
I'm good. I'm good. I'm glad to be doing more of the podcast. You know, we had to take a little break because I'd be having like 12 jobs.
- [01:47]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [01:48]
Keke Palmer
But I'm glad to be here to be talking to you now. I think the fun thing when I was getting ready for this interview is so many people have many different ideas about you. I mean, there's Holly Madison, and then there's Holly Holland. Sue Cullen, that's your full real name. And you're born in Oregon, lived in Alaska, back to Oregon. So when you think about who people think of you and who that girl is, what would you say the biggest difference is?
- [02:11]
Holly Madison
I think people. Sometimes people have an idea of me that's really one dimensional, just like A Playboy Bunny who's always in pink or something like that. And I have a lot more, you know, a wider variety of interests and things like that. But I think, like, my core following, they know me, so I don't really feel the struggle I used to feel of, like, I want to be understood as much anymore.
- [02:29]
Keke Palmer
So I think there's also this idea, too, you know, when you get to be a Playboy Bunny or do anything that's based off your beauty. The idea is that you've been beautiful your whole life or that you felt beautiful your whole life. Would you say that was your experience, like, or that you felt people thought you were beautiful? Did you feel you were beautiful?
- [02:46]
Holly Madison
I don't think so. I feel like beauty is more something that's affected with me. I more made myself look this way, and it's kind of like, you know, it got me where I wanted to go. And it's kind of a hobby now. It's just, you know, what I like to do to make myself feel good. But it is what it is, you know, it only goes so far.
- [03:02]
Keke Palmer
At what age did you discover beauty as currency?
- [03:07]
Holly Madison
I don't know what age I discovered it as currency, really. I mean, maybe in high school, you notice that, like, you're gonna, you know, pop off on the cheerleading team a little bit more if you look the part or whatever. But when I was a little kid, I was given this set of Marilyn Monroe paper dolls when I was, like, fourth in fourth grade.
- [03:23]
Keke Palmer
Come on. Paper dolls. I used to love the paper dolls.
- [03:25]
Holly Madison
Yeah. And this paper doll book, it had a whole bio, her whole life story on the back about her mysterious death and everything. And all the outfits were from her movies. And I was just fascinated with her story and her look and her clothes. So I think that really started, like, my love affair with everything, you know, cosmetic and fashion.
- [03:41]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. It's funny, it makes me think about Dolly Parton. I worked with her once, and I was just like. I mean, we would be in rehearsals, just not even on camera, and she would be perfect at all times. And I'm like, dolly, like, how? I just love you so much. And she was like, well, darling, one day I said, that's who I want to be. And I just did it. And I'm like, damn, but it's so true. I think sometimes we look at it superficially, but it does also make you feel good when you know that you show up and you're doing your best. And then it's interesting because people respond to it differently. I mean, you moved to la, to college. You worked at Hooters as a Hawaiian tropic model to pay for your tuition. So beauty. I mean, at that point you knew it could be a way to help you actually succeed. What was that like?
- [04:23]
Holly Madison
Oh, 100%. Well, for me, what it turned into was trying to do too many different things at once. It was me trying to get good grades to keep my scholarship, but also trying to work to pay the bills and trying to audition and trying to look good and all the things.
- [04:34]
Keke Palmer
Yeah.
- [04:35]
Holly Madison
So it was too much, but it was really important to me and that's what I really wanted was to like have the substance and the schooling, but also do the fun stuff and, you know, live that out.
- [04:43]
Keke Palmer
So what do you think the most challenging thing was about tying your career to the way you looked at. I'm sure it might have changed over time, you know.
- [04:52]
Holly Madison
Yeah. I think more than anything it was probably more of a distraction for me. Always chasing that look and maybe not focusing on more of the substance that I could have. Maybe if I'm really thinking about it. I've really thought about that before. That's an interesting question.
- [05:05]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. Cause I mean, it doesn't. I mean, you look. I mean, so many people have done it and obviously still have so much more to back them up. You know what I mean? But at the same time, it does what you said, sometimes it can make people look at things one dimensionally. It's like a double edged sword.
- [05:18]
Holly Madison
Yeah. And I think when you get caught up like I did and just chasing an aesthetic and trying to look perfect and trying to like, please a certain person, you know, you're just chasing this thing that's never ending. You're never happy with it. So it turns into a real waste of time after a while.
- [05:33]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. And I'm sure so much of that was obviously. I don't know if it was exasperated or if it would be like a more emphasized, I'd say, when working in the Playboy Mansion at 21.
- [05:42]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [05:43]
Keke Palmer
100% entry point to that life. I want to know about your first experiences, like how did you hear about it? How did you meet Hef? Like what was happening at 21 year old Holly at that point?
- [05:53]
Holly Madison
Well, I knew about Playboy just because there were so many women who had been playmates and were famous in the 90s, like Anna Nicole Smith or Pamela Anderson. Yeah, I love her. And you know, so I wanted, you know, to be in the magazine. And I got invited to a Playboy party, which back in 2000 was like the cool party to Go to, like, the hard to get into party. So I was working as a Hawaiian tropic model at an event, and Hef's doctor came and said, I want to invite all these girls to the next party.
- [06:17]
Keke Palmer
So I was super excited.
- [06:19]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [06:19]
Keke Palmer
What type of thing they had turned up?
- [06:22]
Holly Madison
Funny you say. Cause there's some rumors, but, I mean, I can't speak on that, but doctors.
- [06:25]
Keke Palmer
Checking out the clients.
- [06:27]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [06:29]
Keke Palmer
So what was your first impression of Hef and how old was he at that time? I know you were 21. How old was he?
- [06:34]
Holly Madison
He was, like, 75 or something like that. 76. Yeah. But I was in awe of him. You know, I thought he was this amazing person who had created so much and done so much, and you go to these parties. And I got invited also to, like, the pool parties on Sundays, which were a lot smaller, and it was just like, his closest friends. Everybody there is so in awe of him. And, you know, I just thought he seemed like such a gentleman and so interesting. So, you know, I fell for him right away.
- [07:01]
Keke Palmer
What did you feel like, looking back or maybe even then, what was the vetting process like? Obviously, the doctor introduced you. You went to that first party. How many parties or how many events did you see him at? Till it became like, I'm his girlfriend now.
- [07:14]
Holly Madison
Quite a few. And I wouldn't have any real deep interactions with him. It would just be like, oh, hi, how are you? And, you know, it's somebody you would see, like, every weekend, just briefly. But, you know, I was young, and I kind of got the impression that I was getting to know him a little bit. And, you know, of course, when it's a big, powerful person you look up to, you start to only want to see the good things, you know? So it was. It was a handful of times, but.
- [07:36]
Keke Palmer
You know, and so when he said, hey, I want you to be my girlfriend, like, did he say that? Did someone come to you and say that? Like, how did that even go down?
- [07:44]
Holly Madison
Well, I was invited to go out with him and the girls one night because they would go out to clubs a couple times a week. And he had multiple girlfriends at the time, and I knew what that meant. And even though I really liked him and the brand and everything, I wasn't, like, into doing that until one day I didn't have anywhere to live. So I was like, I should give this a try.
- [08:01]
Keke Palmer
Yo, that is so real. I live for the realness. Because, I mean, especially at 21, it's like he got everything, you know what I mean? There's a couple of girls, some of them cute. Why not? We all a family. You know, I could see how that can easily, especially at 21. When I think about me at 21 and what I thought was. Made sense, it's like anything went, you know. Cause you're still kind of kid a little bit.
- [08:21]
Holly Madison
Yeah. And it's something that had been sitting in the back of my mind for a while, and this was happening in my life. And I was up there at a pool party, and one of the, you know, bartenders said, oh, one of the girlfriends just moved out. There's a new spot. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna do this crazy.
- [08:36]
Keke Palmer
I love y' all do this crazy. Now. At that time, did you think about this is love, or did you just think survival?
- [08:43]
Holly Madison
I knew I. Well, it was both. I knew I really liked him in the beginning. I wouldn't say love. Cause I didn't know him that well. But it turned into that quite quickly. You know, we bonded really quickly. You know, I was always the one who was, like, by his side for all the dinners and all the movies and things like that. So I didn't like the fact that there were, like, multiple partners in the relationship for so long. But other than that, you know, I felt at the time, and obviously, you know, I was very young and I wouldn't feel this way now, but, you know, I felt very much in love, for sure.
- [09:12]
Keke Palmer
Wow. So let's talk about the unspoken rules of the mansion. Because I've heard a lot of different things with you guys having to go out.
- [09:18]
Holly Madison
I still hear different things these days.
- [09:20]
Keke Palmer
There's still stuff. You guys having to sleep together, you having to upkeep a certain look. Like, so what's real, what's. What are the main points that you feel like you experienced in that, you know, relationship?
- [09:31]
Holly Madison
You know, a lot of it's tricky because, like you said, a lot of it was unspoken. Like you would move in and I would think, you know, I. Like, you know, when you're like 19 to 22, like, you think you're a badass and you understand everything. So I thought. Yeah, So I thought from like the outside looking in, going to these parties and kind of seeing him interact with his girlfriends here and there. Like, I thought I knew what it was going to be. Like. I thought I knew the whole drill. But I moved in and then I realized, like, I don't know what the schedule of this place is. Like, I knew they had a curfew. Like, they had to be. Yeah, they had to be in at 9 o' clock, which at that time, even though that's weird and people. I always get the weirdest looks when I tell people that. I was like, when I moved in, I was like, well, I'm not going to be here very long. The girls never last very long here. And, you know, I'm just going to enjoy this for what it is I'm trying to get like.
- [10:12]
Keke Palmer
And the house was nice, I'm sure.
- [10:14]
Holly Madison
Yeah. And I was like trying to get a leg up in the world and you know, whatever. I wasn't trying to like, whatever. So that wasn't even the weirdest thing to me at the time. But then you get into little things like, okay, well, this is the schedule and this is how you're supposed to act, or he'll freak out. Or. I thought, I thought it would be fine for me to have like a day job during the day. Found out that wasn't the case. So it was a lot of stumbling around my first six months to a year just trying to like not get in trouble.
- [10:36]
Keke Palmer
And who came and told you that? Like who, who was the person that was saying, hey, no job?
- [10:41]
Holly Madison
Him. Him. Yeah, that turned into a fight, but. And you know, it was drama. And he said he was jealous of the job and all this stupid stuff. But nobody tells you because like you move in and like the other women, like, they seem like they're supportive of you to the point, but they kind of don't want to help anybody else out either. So you're just kind of like walking around in the dark, so to speak.
- [11:01]
Keke Palmer
So what's the day in the life? You get up in the morning, you know, you say, hey, babe, or don't, you know, like, do you guys all get to see him at the same time? You know, then do you get to have activities? Like, I bet grooming is, is something that you had to do.
- [11:15]
Holly Madison
Yeah, for sure. There was a lot of time spent at the salon especially. Cause we were all bleaching our hair, had to get our roots done. But you know, I would wake up usually earlier than him and we had the days free to do what we want as long as we weren't out with other guys or, you know, working apparently. And I, you know, I was finding ways to fill the time over the years. Like I started taking classes again at UCLA and started working at the Playboy studio eventually after being there for a couple years. So I produced the Playmate shoots and I kept myself busy for sure.
- [11:44]
Keke Palmer
And obviously you got paid. He paid you. Or no well, you would get, like.
- [11:48]
Holly Madison
A clothing allowance of, like a thousand dollars a week. And I tried to save as much of that as I could. Like, I tried to be as slick about it as I could and save. And after, you know, a few years there, I was putting down payments on my first investment properties and going to school for real estate investment. So I definitely was conscientious of, you know, this probably isn't going to last forever, so.
- [12:08]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. What did your parents think?
- [12:11]
Holly Madison
They didn't know what was going on for a long time. Like, when I finally admitted to them I was living there, I think they thought it was kind of like some sort of modeling thing. And my dad came down to visit, and I gave him a tour of the house during the day. And, like, Hef was busy in the office, and he goes, oh, so does Hef actually live here? And I'm like, yeah.
- [12:29]
Keke Palmer
And what did he say?
- [12:30]
Holly Madison
He didn't ask any more questions than that. I just don't think they thought of it as what it was. And it wasn't something I would have felt comfortable, like, confiding in anybody. It was something that I felt very confused about the whole relationship and didn't really feel there was anyone I could confide in until my friend Bridget moved into the house a couple years later. And we've been close friends ever since. We do a podcast together now, but she was really the only person I confided in for so long.
- [12:55]
Keke Palmer
Oh, my gosh. And probably because you're trying to process, I'm sure there's probably still so much stuff now that you're processing, like, oh, my gosh, you know, was this coercion or was this.
- [13:04]
Holly Madison
Because.
- [13:05]
Keke Palmer
And I mean, in your book down the Rabbit Hole, you're open about the group sex in the mansion and how you hated it. I mean, when you think about that in the moment, what did you think was true? And then now, you know, with the, you know, obviously hindsight's 20 20, what do you really view as what was going down?
- [13:21]
Holly Madison
Well, I knew I was miserable at the time. It didn't take much longer after moving in before I realized I was miserable. But at the time, you know, I blamed it on the other women. And there were some people there who weren't angels. But the way that whole situation was set up and manipulated, I always felt like it was the other women out to get me and them causing problems. And there was some of that going on for sure. But it wasn't until the relationship was almost over that I realized he was, you Know, pulling the strings there and really pitting people against each other and things like that.
- [13:47]
Keke Palmer
So what you mean he was actually. How did you find that out? Like, did you. Was he kind of like shady boots?
- [13:51]
Holly Madison
Like, what was he 100% shady boots?
- [13:53]
Keke Palmer
I love 70.
- [13:55]
Holly Madison
Yeah. And that was why it was so hard for me to process is I just remember being so young at the time, and, you know, I didn't have any concept of duality. I thought if you were old, you must be mature. Right?
- [14:06]
Keke Palmer
I know. No, serious. I mean, you would assume that a senior would have some sense about him, but damn, he's out there being messy with the girls.
- [14:14]
Holly Madison
100%.
- [14:15]
Keke Palmer
That's crazy. Very scandalous. So, I mean, how do you make sense of consent now? Because. Or I'll even ask this. Before then, what was your idea of consent? And then after that experience, what do you think? Like, how did you. Because I'm sure it disrupted your idea of consent. So, like, how did. What do you think of it now?
- [14:33]
Holly Madison
I mean, I didn't think about it much at all before then. I think, you know, we're thinking so much more into it in detail these days. You know, that's right. And how you need to speak up for yourself and everything, because, yeah, lines get blurred, definitely. And I think people make a lot of assumptions on both sides.
- [14:49]
Keke Palmer
I mean, especially in a situation where the power dynamics are so severe. I mean, you think about somebody like Hef, how did he control the room? You know, were there. Was there a way that he would go about it that you look back and say, oh, that was manipulation. Or this was him keeping us in our place.
- [15:05]
Holly Madison
Yeah, it was a lot of, you know, comparing girls or making, like, negative comments to you, you know, in front of other people, or telling me this girl said this about you and, you know, finding out later that wasn't true. It was just little things like that. But things that have a bigger impact.
- [15:20]
Keke Palmer
I do also have to say, I mean, these tights I just got a glimpse of with this line in the back. So fabulous.
- [15:25]
Holly Madison
Thank you.
- [15:26]
Keke Palmer
I'm getting into the details of this look.
- [15:27]
Holly Madison
I don't know where it's like, so it's getting.
- [15:29]
Keke Palmer
That's why she was in that mansion. Because Mama is hot. I live.
- [15:34]
Holly Madison
So are you.
- [15:34]
Keke Palmer
Thank you. Now, what myth do you still see floating around about the Playboy Mansion in Hef that you feel need to be shattered?
- [15:42]
Holly Madison
Oh, my God, baby.
- [15:43]
Keke Palmer
This is icky. Palma. Yeah, y' all, I am still thinking about this incredible girls trip I took a while back at this Amazing. Airbnb. When I tell you we lived our best lives. The spot had this gorgeous backyard Jacuzzi and our host was so sweet walking us through how to get those jets just right. We had in house massages all day and the kind of peace and quiet you can only get when you have whole place to yourself. That's exactly what I love about Airbnb. You can search through their guest favorites to find some highly rated, most loved homes that give you the space to truly celebrate your way. And this fourth of July, whether you're looking for a spot with a spacious deck made for family barbecues, a cozy living room for late night card games, or prime locations to catch these fireworks, these homes hit different and child having your own space means celebrating without worrying about hotel neighbors. So this Independence Day, declare your freedom from ordinary vacations, book an Airbnb and create memories that will have you feeling patriotic all year long. Trust me, it's the kind of celebrating that'll have you saying God Bless America and Airbnb. This episode is brought to you by Saks. Hold up. Let me put you on to something major. Your summer just got a whole lot more luxurious because Saks Fifth Avenue is now on Amazon. Whether you're hunting for that perfect Giambattista Valli dress for your bestie's botanical backyard brunch, or that stunning Etro Captain for your Amalfi coast getaway, Saks on Amazon has got all your summer moments covered. I'm literally obsessed with this new Balmain beach tote that I've been eyeing for my next summer vacay. Mm. And it's not just the vacation fits. We're talking effortless luxury for every moment. With Stella McCartney's new sustainable sundresses, some must have D and G sunglasses, and all the designer handbags and beauty products you need to serve all season long. From brunch to boardwalk rooftop parties to resort pools, Saks has curated the perfect edit for every summer scenario. Have you seen their weekend wear collection? With these pieces, you'll be giving certified head turner status on every boulevard. And don't even get me started on their accessories. Your girl is def. Adding those new Balmain sandals to cart Expeditious. The cherry on top. It's the luxury shopping experience you love from Saks with that easy Amazon delivery we all live for. Get the Saks designer brands you love delivered just like that new on Amazon.
- [18:22]
Holly Madison
You know, my mind is so open now after talking about all the things I've talked about that I always leave space for. You Know what? Something could be true, and I just don't know. Like, the one I love to talk about is people talk about there being tunnels under the mansion that, like, went to Diddy's house, supposedly. And I'm like, not to my knowledge. Like, could there have been tunnels that I would have maybe. Well, also, like, the story doesn't really make sense, too, because I don't think he moved to that neighborhood till, like, 2014. And heavy was, like, you know, not really that active at that. This was long after I was gone. But, yeah, but I don't know. As far as I know, no tunnels. You know, anytime I say that, people get mad in the comments, like, she knows, and she's a tunnel denier. I'm like, I would be the first to tell you if there are tunnels.
- [19:02]
Keke Palmer
Trust me, that would be a trip.
- [19:06]
Holly Madison
I know.
- [19:06]
Keke Palmer
Now, in People magazine, you said, I thought leaving would be the end of my life. Instead, it was the beginning. What's something that began for you the moment that you walked away? And what did. When you said the end of my life, what did you think that meant?
- [19:19]
Holly Madison
Not necessarily. Not like, the end of my life. End of my life.
- [19:21]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. Yeah.
- [19:22]
Holly Madison
It just felt like I was giving up any, you know, kind of thing I had gained. Any small thing I had gained over the seven years I was there. I thought I was completely starting from scratch, you know, like, I'd saved a little bit of money, but not much. And what I gained after that is just faith in myself. Cause I was able to start again out of nowhere and, you know, be successful and have a career right after that.
- [19:44]
Keke Palmer
So how was the process of leaving? You know, what did it look like?
- [19:47]
Holly Madison
It was me having a conversation with him after, like, a couple months of, you know, thinking about it and finally being sure. And he was trying to get me to stay, and he was, like, leaving his will out on his bed so I could read it and see how much was in there, which is like.
- [20:01]
Keke Palmer
Baby, I'm not 21 anymore.
- [20:02]
Holly Madison
I know.
- [20:03]
Keke Palmer
How old were you by that time?
- [20:05]
Holly Madison
Uh, 29. Oh, yeah.
- [20:07]
Keke Palmer
The same tricks don't work.
- [20:08]
Holly Madison
Yeah, 100%.
- [20:10]
Keke Palmer
Wow.
- [20:10]
Holly Madison
Yeah. So it. It was very awkward. You know, even the time it took just to pack up my stuff and finish filming for the show. It was an awkward couple of months.
- [20:18]
Keke Palmer
You know, we're talking so much about Hef and love and all that stuff. But I'm very curious. How did that experience change your relationship or impact your relationship with women? Because you're in there with all those women, and you Know what I mean? It's. There's such a subtle like competition aspect. Like how did that impact you?
- [20:35]
Holly Madison
You know what's interesting is you'd look at that and you would think that I don't trust women and that I'm always very careful. But it's hasn't changed that at all. Like, female friendships have been so important to me always. And from the second I left the mansion and moved to Vegas, I immediately had a new friend group. And I've been screwed over by a couple women since then. But I've just never like hardened to that. I've just always, you know, it's been super important to have those friendships.
- [20:58]
Keke Palmer
Well, even hearing you talk, it feels like you have so much like observation from it and like almost even like compassion for yourself in the situation because you've often said it's kind of cult, like, so I imagine it was pretty hard to leave. What gave it that cult vibe?
- [21:13]
Holly Madison
Well, it's just this world where it's kind of a high stakes environment where you're entering as a young person and you could gain a lot, you could gain money, you could gain fame, whatever. At least you think you can. And everybody in the social circle is just so adoring of this one person who can do no wrong. And you can't even say like the slightest thing without getting like ostracized, you know. So it kind of gives you like a cult, like kind of mentality and.
- [21:37]
Keke Palmer
It creates this process where you're kind of lying to yourself 100% because it's like nobody's that perfect. And if I can't be truthful out loud, I mean, like, did you ever feel a moment in time where you were like, this is delusional. You had to kind of wake yourself back up to what you authentically thought and felt about situations?
- [21:52]
Holly Madison
Definitely. And that was something that came to me even in time. After I left. It didn't happen right away. It was something that took a couple years. I feel like even I'd been away for a couple years and I went back to this, you know, coffee table book we had made for the girls next door show because I wanted to find some photo of some costume or something. And I'm looking through it and maybe the outsider wouldn't be able to look at these pictures of me and tell, but I could tell. Like I have the fakest smile right now. Like I'm so miserable and I'm doing this fake smile. And then it just all kind of came back and I was just looking back at it in a different way. You know, when I left, I didn't look in the rearview mirror at all. I was all thinking about my future, and I was just trying to tie the past up in the most positive way I could and just tie a nice little bow on it. But then when I finally looked back, I was like, holy. This was, like, way deeper than I even acknowledged at the time.
- [22:36]
Keke Palmer
Oh, my gosh. Isn't that so interesting how our subconscious protects us? It's like we. The higher us is protecting, you know, the front facing us more than we even know. Because once we out of the situation, we actually realized what we were hiding from ourselves that we needed to survive from.
- [22:52]
Holly Madison
Exactly.
- [22:53]
Keke Palmer
It's crazy.
- [22:53]
Holly Madison
You're 100% right. It's just. You're just trying to get through that phase as best you can.
- [22:57]
Keke Palmer
Oh, my gosh. I'm really happy for you. Thank you so much for getting out of that, because it's really tough, especially with so many people validating it. I mean, when you left, did Bridget leave or what was that? What was happening with her? Oh, she wasn't. She was in the house. Bridget was.
- [23:10]
Holly Madison
Yeah. Yeah. Kendra had already decided to leave, and Bridget was leaving temporarily to film a different show. And I don't think she had planned to leave yet. I think she thought she had a couple more years going. But after I left, I think she felt uncomfortable because then there were other girls moving in, taking my place, and I think she felt like, this isn't really for me anymore.
- [23:30]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. I mean, how was it filming the girls next door? Like, when you look at it now, you know, how was that experience? Like, can you watch it now?
- [23:37]
Holly Madison
Yeah. I'm actually doing a rewatch podcast called Girls Next Level. So we go deep into it, and there's a lot to analyze, and there's definitely a lot I'd complain about. But for the most part, that show was a really great opportunity, and it took what was a really bleak situation and turned it into something better. You know, even just everyday life was better. Like, Hef even was really into the show, and he was so focused on the show, he wasn't focused on any of the other petty stuff as much. So it really improved, like, all aspects of our life, really.
- [24:04]
Keke Palmer
Oh, love it.
- [24:05]
Holly Madison
It was a blessing.
- [24:06]
Keke Palmer
We love a job.
- [24:07]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [24:07]
Keke Palmer
Now, your reality show, Holly's world, it premiered 2009, and, I mean, it really marked a turning point for you, going from girlfriend to boss. How did that help you take your power back? What was the journey of getting there?
- [24:19]
Holly Madison
It was Interesting, because I wasn't really doing any of the inner work because I was so just hitting the ground running, and it's like I have to start from scratch and build a whole new career. So that kind of came later when I got into writing my book. But I was just so excited to be in Vegas. I was headlining a burlesque show, which was what I wanted to do, and doing my own TV show, and I was just having the time of my life. It was one of my favorite chapters, for sure.
- [24:41]
Keke Palmer
Now, were you always a dancer or did you just kind of happened along this journey?
- [24:45]
Holly Madison
Yeah, yeah. My talent is selling tickets, not dancing.
- [24:49]
Keke Palmer
I know that's right. Selling tickets. Yes. So what did you think that Vegas gave you at that time? I mean, it could be the burlesque show, and it could have been. It could be, you know, Holly's world. But what do you think that experience from going from LA and everything that that was connected to, how did that. How did going to Vegas kind of separate you from that?
- [25:07]
Holly Madison
I really love the spirit of that city. You know, everybody there is a hustler. Everybody there is. I feel like there's an optimism about being in Vegas and working in veg. And we opened a show at a time when it was, like, right after the 2008 recession. So it was, like the worst time you could try to do anything in Vegas. But we made it work. We made it a hit. And just everybody, you know, knows how to survive there, and I just love that, baby.
- [25:29]
Keke Palmer
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- [26:06]
Holly Madison
Ooh.
- [26:07]
Keke Palmer
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- [28:49]
Holly Madison
Definitely. When I wrote my book in 2015, I decided to write it because every single day of my life I would go Out. And somebody would come up to me and say, how's Hef? How's he doing? And I would always like give some kind of positive answer, just cause I thought that was the nice thing to do. Even though by this point I wasn't even speaking to him. And you know, we'd have how to falling out. And he was off making snarky comments. But for some reason I felt like this responsibility to still be like the cheerleader of that whole thing. And I just couldn't do it anymore. I just felt like I don't want to keep selling this relationship I was in that was really toxic and that I wouldn't recommend to anybody else. Like I need to tell the truth about it. And I'm glad I did.
- [29:23]
Keke Palmer
I am too. And I think as a performer, any type of performer. Look, first of all, I believe every person that's human is performing. We have to always perform humanity. It's kind of like the construct of social structures, but in that, you know, you can lose yourself in the performance of who you think you're supposed to be. And I think that's like a really big part of self actualization is like, well, I'm different from who I'm showing up as. Like, there's another person that's deep inside that only I know. How has your relationship with performance changed? Like, how. How do you view it? Because you're obviously still entertaining, you know, do those things. But how have you created more healthy boundaries for yourself within that performance?
- [30:01]
Holly Madison
Well, I think for me, one of the healthiest things I did was I was bored during quarantine. So I started a TikTok and a YouTube channel. And I. I just felt like those were kind of the first places I could like, look at the camera and just be myself and speak candidly. Even when I was doing reality shows, even when I was doing my own reality show, when I was in that confessional chair, I always felt like I was still playing this role, this other version of Holly. So that was a really positive thing for me. And I feel like I can just be candid now. And I still have boundaries. Like, I don't talk about my kids or like post my kids faces on social media. Things like that are important like that. But other than that, I just feel like I'm an open book and I like being that way.
- [30:37]
Keke Palmer
Now, you mentioned your book, obviously, down the Rabbit hole dropped in 2015. That wasn't just a memoir, it was a mic drop.
- [30:44]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [30:45]
Keke Palmer
What gave you the courage, truly, to just tell the truth like that? And were there any. At any point, did you think, I'm gonna get sued? Or were, you know, this is NDAs or. How did you prepare yourself for all of that?
- [30:57]
Holly Madison
Well, it wasn't really a question of courage. It was more just. I felt like I had to do it. It was something I was being approached about and asked about every day. And I just felt like I was living a lie, kind of trying to tell this, like, shiny, happy, positive story. And you start to make yourself sick over it, like you feel sick in your gut. So I just felt, I have to do this. I don't even care. And the publishing company I worked with had a really great legal team that worked with me. So I learned a lot from that. And now I feel confident saying whatever I say on my podcast and, you know, YouTube, because I've just been doing this for so long, so.
- [31:28]
Keke Palmer
And then the other thing about it too, is, like, because there were so many other people involved, when you speak out and you tell your truth, then it kind of exposes them. So how did you feel and how was your experience with the other women that were with you in the mansion? If they didn't want those things heard, did they reach out? Were they upset? What was the backlash there? If there was any.
- [31:48]
Holly Madison
A lot of people were upset, not necessarily women specifically, about what I said, because most of the women who lived there before we did the TV show, I just changed their names and their identifying characteristics. So there's some deniability for it for them. But a lot of people who'd been in the magazine at all or attached to Playboy were mad about it because, you know, they still see that as such a huge part of their identity and how they're known, and they just don't want anything bad being said about it.
- [32:14]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, I don't wanna talk about your children specifically. Cause I respect you wanting to be private. But I know you had your daughter in 2013, your son in 2016. I wanna know how motherhood, you know, changed these things for you. Because for me, when I had my son, I saw everything about my life so much clearer. I don't know what it was. I don't know if it's the hormones. I don't know, like, if it was just also me maturing because of having to take care of a little person. But it really changed how I viewed my life. How did it impact you?
- [32:43]
Holly Madison
I think part of, you know, wanting to be more of an open book and more real with people is inspired by parenthood as well, and just, you know, wanting to keep it real for your kids and everything like that. Also, it gives me healthy boundaries. Like ever since I got divorced, I only dated one person, but I didn't even introduce that guy to my kids at all because they're like my number one and I wouldn't introduce them to anybody unless I was like engaged. So I love that I have those boundaries and you know, they really like, you know, examples like that. It's just like kids enrich your life in ways that you don't even know.
- [33:14]
Keke Palmer
When you think about autonomy and your relationship with it, what's something that you would want to make sure that your kids know that maybe you didn't know or that you arrived to, that you wish you'd maybe arrived to sooner?
- [33:23]
Holly Madison
Just to have faith in yourself and don't make decisions based off of fear. I think I was doing a lot of that in my early years.
- [33:30]
Keke Palmer
It's so, it's just, just, I feel like it's so a part of our lives. We all, you know, it's like, what else do you know? You don't know. People always talk about self esteem being high or low and I just, I don't believe that. I believe it's talked to my therapist about this shout out to you that self esteem is always growing because I can't know I don't like something until.
- [33:46]
Holly Madison
I've tried it a hundred percent, you.
- [33:48]
Keke Palmer
Know, so it's like having that patience with ourselves. It's so, you know, it's like I gotta know what I don't like to know what I love. Yeah, that's just a part of it. You can't get around it. Something else that I, you know, is interesting to me that you've discovered, you know, as you gotten older is autism that you had that you have autism. How did you even go about saying, let me get checked for it?
- [34:07]
Holly Madison
I always knew there was something different about me, but I blamed it on growing up really isolated in Alaska. Even though my sister's not like that at all. So it doesn't really make sense, but that was always kind of where my headspace was at. But about five years ago, my mom mentioned to me and to my ex husband that she always suspected I had Asperger's. And she said one of the first symptoms was I would just zone out a lot as a kid. I would just lock onto something and just completely be on another planet. And she didn't know what was, was going on. And then I started looking that up and seeing what the, some of the symptoms were and Thought that that sounded.
- [34:37]
Keke Palmer
Like, girl, tell me the symptoms, because I zone out.
- [34:41]
Holly Madison
Well, there's. That there's not understanding social cues, not making eye contact, which I can do now, but that's more of a learn thing. Stims like, my big thing was I was always. And you can go back and see it on my old shows. I'm like, constantly playing with my hair, things like that.
- [34:55]
Keke Palmer
I feel like so many of us are discovering that we have some type of neurodivergence as we. I don't know if it's because, like, there was shame with our parents in the past. And when the teacher's like, they got this, they got that. And they're like, no, no, no, no. I don't know. It's very interesting to me. Or maybe it's because we all have social media and we can talk about these things and it's giving us the resource to find answers. I mean, when you came to that, was it a relief or was it a, like, you know.
- [35:19]
Holly Madison
No, it was 100% a relief. I feel like I could address issues I felt I had with social interactions and stuff better because I understand it more.
- [35:27]
Keke Palmer
Was it a lens that helped heal you? I mean, I guess you don't know who you would have. Who you are without that. But do you feel like that was the. I don't wanna say was the reason for things, but did you feel like it gave you kind of like a. Oh, that's.
- [35:38]
Holly Madison
Yeah, it helped me understand what they have stuff or. Yeah, it helped me understand some of the reasoning. It helped me understand why I felt in part like I bonded with him so much. Part of that was because I never bonded with people my own age or guys my own age, really. You know, like, I had a boyfriend in high school, but it never felt. Felt very deep or very connected. And, you know, all it took was one guy who's really good at charming and manipulating for me to feel like, oh, well, maybe I'm supposed to be with an older person. I don't know.
- [36:05]
Keke Palmer
Yeah.
- [36:06]
Holly Madison
But, yeah, it's just. It's always helpful to get any insight onto how you operate, I think.
- [36:10]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, I'm always looking into myself too. I mean, you know, you just want to know how to be the best you. And it's funny because it's like a book that never stops writing itself. Totally. So the list just gets longer. I want to talk about the latest season of your series, the Playboy Murders. It premiered in May and explores the dark side of fame, exploitation, and the Playboy brand. I mean, what made you want to go into true crime and about something that could possibly be quite triggering for you?
- [36:35]
Holly Madison
I've always been incredibly interested in true crime content. I grew up on Unsolved Mysteries. That was my favorite thing I got to watch when I was allowed to. And when this show was pitched to me, at first, I didn't want to do it because I was like, I'm doing. I've done too many Playboy things. I'm, like, up to my ears in it. But they showed me the deck on the cases they wanted to cover, and they were cases I hadn't even heard about. And I thought I knew everything about anybody who'd ever been involved in Playboy. And I was like, this is a show I would actually watch, so I really wanted to be involved. And we're on our third season now, and it's been so rewarding to be able to tell these stories and talk about the women and the victims more than just a pretty face or just a centerfold or a Playboy bunny.
- [37:12]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. I mean, how do you emotionally prepare for it if you have to? I mean, don't know how dark and how deep it gets. But is there a moment where you. Whenever you're doing true crime stuff, it's like, it can be heavy.
- [37:22]
Holly Madison
Yeah. You definitely have to pace yourself when you're doing that kind of work. And, you know, I try to just approach it from a way of, like, if I were that victim, how would I want my story told?
- [37:32]
Keke Palmer
Yeah.
- [37:32]
Holly Madison
And try to be as empathetic as I can through that lens.
- [37:35]
Keke Palmer
What kind of comments and feedback do you guys get from the viewers, you know, or what do women take away the most?
- [37:39]
Holly Madison
You think, oh, people love the stories because you have that intersection of, you know, the story itself and the crime itself, and then this really interesting world that these people come from. I also do a show called Lethally Blonde that's similar type of stories. They're not Playboy specific.
- [37:53]
Keke Palmer
Come on, Lethally Blonde play.
- [37:57]
Holly Madison
But, yeah, the stories are really interesting because the people involved always come from a really interesting world or a really interesting background or something else we can explore.
- [38:06]
Keke Palmer
What sign are you, Holly?
- [38:07]
Holly Madison
I'm a Capricorn.
- [38:08]
Keke Palmer
Yes. My perfect match. Capricorn and Virgo.
- [38:11]
Holly Madison
Yes.
- [38:12]
Keke Palmer
Yes. So when you think about yourself, I mean, you've done such an incredible job, whether with Playboy or just with your own personal brand. I mean, you've continuously branched your brand out in all these different categories. Did you see this for yourself? I mean, did you automatically feel like, you know, I'm meant to be somebody in this particular way, like as an entertainer or somebody that's taken center stage.
- [38:35]
Holly Madison
You know what's weird is I would always see when I was a teenager, like things people were doing in the public eye. And I always knew I wanted to have this career where I started out, like in Playboy as like a glamour model and then went into TV in some way. But I always assumed I would be like hosting a show or something. I didn't know it was gonna be reality and then true crime. So it's weird that I got exactly where I wanted to go, but in such a weird way, like what even is that?
- [39:00]
Keke Palmer
That's God, girl. He be doing anything up there. I wanna talk about freedom and legacy. How do you define freedom now?
- [39:10]
Holly Madison
Freedom is being able to do what you want, when you want, which you can't always. You have to compromise for people somewhere along the line. But for the most part, being able to do what you enjoy and what you find rewarding.
- [39:23]
Keke Palmer
What would you say to that girl, that 21 year old girl that walked into the Playboy mansion? What would you, what would you say to her? If you could say something to her now about freedom or about anything?
- [39:33]
Holly Madison
I'd say hold the on cause it's gonna get rough and take a lot of pictures.
- [39:39]
Keke Palmer
Oh my gosh.
- [39:41]
Holly Madison
I mean, I think sometimes those questions people want to hear an answer like, oh, I tell her not to do this or not to do that. But even though like things were rough and miserable at times, like I truly believe this was the journey I was supposed to go on. Even if it was just to tell my story and warn other people or give other people a perspective.
- [39:59]
Keke Palmer
As your parents started watching the show or even family and friends from back home in general, what was the feedback that you would be getting in real time?
- [40:06]
Holly Madison
People from back home wouldn't really give me any feedback. And that's kind of a scary thought. Like maybe they thought this is awful and we're just not gonna say anything. So I don't really know. I wasn't really getting feedback. I just remember, you know, this was when I first stumbled across like message boards on the E. Network site. And you know, you think you're the only one being talked about. Cause we all see like all the talking and stuff and that was like kind of devastating, you know, in my earlier 20s. But you know, I've learned to deal with it.
- [40:33]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. I mean, and it's only gotten increasingly worse. I mean, now you're, you're also in an influencer era. How do you think those earlier reality show years prepared you for this.
- [40:43]
Holly Madison
Now it definitely prepared me for it. You know, I. I worry about, like, the next generation. I hope that the next generation actually just has a thicker skin. They're like, we grew up with this. We don't care. This is. These might as well be bots talking about us. I hope that that's what I hope for the next generation.
- [40:57]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah. The real thing, too, is most of the time, everybody's just trying to get a laugh. That's one thing that I. Because I grew up, you know, performing in the era, too, where there wasn't much stuff online. Like, when I had a MySpace or a Facebook, it was private. It wasn't until, you know, my teenage years that that started being something that became a part of my job.
- [41:14]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [41:15]
Keke Palmer
And now I think it's like, hopefully we're getting to the point where we can tell the difference, and it's not something that really moves us or impacts us in a way that I think it initially did.
- [41:25]
Holly Madison
Yeah, I hope so, too.
- [41:26]
Keke Palmer
Whenever we go through, like, traumatic events, obviously there's a piece of us that we still hold onto. And sometimes it could be a person. Like you mentioned, Brigid. You know, for some people, it's God or their faith or an activity or something that holds onto the version of them that just, you know, is pure and not affected. It helps them to stay grounded. What helped you stay grounded, you think?
- [41:47]
Holly Madison
I always had this weird faith that, like, everything was gonna turn out okay, even though in my mind it wasn't. In my mind, I had all these worries, like, what happens if this? What happens if that? You know, I was constantly scared of, like, getting kicked out or whatever, but I always had this weird faith kind of above it all, that if I just kept going and just kept my head down and working toward my goals, that everything was gonna be okay. And I'm kind of, like, spiritual in a weird way. And I almost feel like that was the future version of myself telling myself.
- [42:16]
Keke Palmer
That I have believed stuff like that, too, you know, I remember moments in my life as a performer where I realized, like, even in my own household that I just couldn't be me. For whatever reason, I was not being accepted. And I thought to myself that there'll be a time where I can take the mask off and I can show everybody who I really am and that I know what's going on and they'll have to accept it because I won't be a kid anymore.
- [42:38]
Holly Madison
I love that.
- [42:38]
Keke Palmer
And I just held on to it. I think it was my higher self, too. That was like, girl, I'll be here waiting when you're there.
- [42:44]
Holly Madison
Yeah, I love that.
- [42:45]
Keke Palmer
Yeah. I mean, you said before you didn't want to be remembered as someone's girlfriend. Do you feel that you've changed that narrative now?
- [42:53]
Holly Madison
I don't know. I think people always like to go back to that. I don't care about it as much as I used to. You know, you just can't really control those things.
- [43:02]
Keke Palmer
Yeah, you can't.
- [43:03]
Holly Madison
Yeah.
- [43:04]
Keke Palmer
What made you stop caring?
- [43:06]
Holly Madison
I think one thing I realized, and this is looking at Hef himself, is he was so obsessed with his own legacy, and what was he gonna leave behind, and what were people gonna think of him? And he was constantly producing documentaries about himself and. And making all these scrapbooks and having books written about himself, and his legacy didn't turn out like what he wanted at all. So you can't control your legacy. You just can't. It's out of your hands.
- [43:32]
Keke Palmer
You really can't. Do you think in that process of watching him, I'm curious now, that you were talking about all the different things he was doing that you learned anything about production, about brand management, about, you know, did he share that with you guys, or did he try to keep you guys out of that, or do you feel you benefited from watching his business?
- [43:47]
Holly Madison
Definitely benefited from watching his business. I worked with him for several years, too, when I worked at the Playboy Studios. I produced all the Playmate layouts, and the job was amazing, and the work relationship was amazing. Personal relationship, not so much, but that.
- [43:59]
Keke Palmer
I would only imagine. I'm glad. I wouldn't know if he kept that part away from you guys for particular reasons or if you got a chance to kind of really at least learn something from that.
- [44:07]
Holly Madison
Yeah, no, I think I learned a lot. Probably more than I even could reference.
- [44:11]
Keke Palmer
To anyone else that might be feeling trapped in their own story, the own, you know, the facing identity of who they are. What is something, as someone that has, I think, successfully changed the narrative around them, what would you. What piece of advice would you give to someone else?
- [44:26]
Holly Madison
I would always say, don't be afraid to ask for help. And if you have that one friend you want to confide in and, you know, get some of their feedback, and, look, I'm not feeling authentic. I'm not feeling, you know, what can I try? That's different, that feels authentic. And then just follow that.
- [44:41]
Keke Palmer
Well, I love that. I love talking to you, and I'm just so glad. Like, I just. I could talk to you for hours because you're such an interesting person. Thank you so much. Glad that you came on the show.
- [44:50]
Holly Madison
Thank you. Thanks for having you.
- [44:51]
Keke Palmer
Yes, yes, that was a word. Okay. Big love to Holly for keeping it real and reminding us that healing ain't always soft. It's sharp, it's loud, and it's necessary. From the mansion to the mic, she is showing us what it looks like, like to take your power back and use it for good. So whether you're out here rewriting your own story, setting new boundaries, or just learning to listen to your gut, take this as your sign. You don't owe the world your silence. Now go on and hit play on Holly's Girls Next Level podcast if you haven't already. And watch Playboy Murders. And keep speaking your truth, because somebody out there needs to hear it. Until next time, holla at your girl. This is. This is Kiki, baby. This is Kiki Palma. Yeah.