Why Tracee Ellis Ross Stopped Waiting to Be Chosen

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Tracee Ellis Ross Stopped Waiting to Be Chosen"

Podcast: Baby, This Is Keke Palmer
Host: Keke Palmer
Guest: Tracee Ellis Ross
Date: July 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

This vibrant and insightful episode brings together actress, entrepreneur, and cultural icon Tracee Ellis Ross with host Keke Palmer for a free-flowing and honest conversation about living on your own terms. The focus centers on legacy, self-identity, the freedom of solo living and travel, societal expectations, female independence, and the experiences and pressures unique to women, especially Black women, in building full, meaningful lives beyond conventional timelines and benchmarks. The episode weaves deep wisdom with humor, mentorship, and celebration of individuality.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Tracee Ellis Ross’ Origin, Name, and Identity

• Naming Story: Tracee reveals the story behind her full name, blending both her parents' legacies to honor both sides equally.
  • "When my name hit the screen, for everyone to know that I was not just my mom’s daughter, but also my dad’s daughter. And so I am Tracee Ellis Ross. So that every time I’m up there, Bob Ellis knows that's my kid, and Diana Ross knows that’s also my kid." (05:24)
• Growing up under famous parents: Explores how being Diana Ross's daughter (and Robert Ellis Silberstein's) influenced her sense of self, expectations, and visibility.

2. Astrology as Self-Reflection

• Tracee’s Chart: Scorpio Sun, Leo Moon, Taurus Rising.
  • "Scorpio is associated with depth over surface. You're drawn to what's hidden... You don't do small talk easily. Correct. And when you commit to something or someone, it's total. Whoa." (08:55)
• Differences in personality:
  • Both discuss their zodiac placements and how those shape approaches to life, love, expression, and relationships.

3. Career Path and Artistic Freedom

• Birth of Entrepreneurship: Tracee’s journey in product creation, from JCPenney clothing line to Pattern Beauty, highlighting business challenges and growth.
  • "It gave me the...Well, we can talk about that. But it was the—it was the beginning. And I always wanted to do the hair. I've been trying to do that forever." (03:13)
• Choosing Broadway with “Every Brilliant Thing”:
  • Selecting projects based on passion, connection to the material, and opportunities for expressive freedom.
  • "Whenever I'm reading something and I start without realizing it, reading it out loud... I love being an artist in that way." (13:12)
  • Performing the solo show fulfills a lifelong dream of "just me" on stage: "Everyone’s like, 'Oh my God, are you scared, it’s just you?' I'm like, 'No, it’s just me! I don’t have to share with anybody.'" (15:00)

4. Legacy, Love, and ‘Waiting to Be Chosen’

• Impact of “Girlfriends” and the character Joan: Tracee discusses the long-term psychological impact of playing a character obsessed with being chosen, recognizing she had internalized more than realized.
  • "I spent 173 episodes for 8 years talking about not being chosen... it was a way for me unconsciously to reclaim that I am the chooser. Yes. That I am worthy of choosing the right partner and that I don't have to sit around being a prize to wait to be chosen." (22:52)
• Cultural Pressure vs. Self-Definition:
  • Explores societal expectations for women (patriarchy, ageism, sexism, misogynoir), and letting go of external validation.
  • "I am responsible for my own happiness." (23:59)

5. Navigating Public Perception, Social Media, and Own Way of Living

• Being a Role Model/‘Bad Example’:
  • Tracee keeps a healthy boundary with social media discourse. Viral critiques don’t shake her sense of self.
  • "It's just none of my business." (49:31)
• Responding to intrusive public questions:
  • "I remember saying to one person on camera, I said, will you get out of my womb?...Why are you asking me that question? That's insane." (27:19)

6. Womanhood, Aging, and Beauty Standards

• Embracing Change:
  • Hilariously and candidly discuss bodily changes with age, obsession with perfection, and the importance of expression over tight, ‘dolphin’ faces.
  • "I want to keep looking this way...I want to know who's coming behind me… I want the life in my face. I don't want to look like a baby dolphin." (31:25, 32:15)
• Male beauty standards: Entertaining investigation into the origins and meaning of Black men’s haircut styles and why men care so much about hairlines and ‘lining up.’
  • “I just want to know...We can track back where, like, some of women’s beauty standards, but like, where is it?” (55:58)

7. Parenthood, Family, and Celebrity Upbringing

• Parental legacy: Reflections on growing up as a child of legends and how it shapes self-awareness and careful navigation of the world as a Black woman.
  • “I felt very aware from a young age...then also as a Black girl, you know, it’s always like, you had to be...” (47:20, 48:02)
• Grace and gratitude: Recognition of the advantages and unique challenges of celebrity lineage, and the importance of crafting one’s own path.
  • “You know what I mean? Like, I came out like this. I don’t know. I don’t know what to tell you. Like, I’m a person who knows who I am, and I feel like I always have…” (25:46)

8. Art, Expression, and Black Creativity’s Legacy

• Discovery of Art: Tracee describes how learning from Black artists and curators reframed her relationship to visual art and culture.
  • "When I went with Thelma Golden… to hear somebody who knows so much about art explain and talk about a Black artist and what it’s… something will never leave me." (36:39)
• Storytelling across mediums: Keke and Tracee both identify storytelling as central, whether in food, art, or performance—a lens that made the creative world more accessible and meaningful.

9. Relationships, Romance, and Dating in Modern Times

• Love languages: The importance of consistent connection, quality time, and vulnerability over performative romance.
  • “I love consistent connection. So what would that be as a love language?” (70:32)
• Modern dating expectations and humor: Role-playing scenarios about awkward dates, receiving compliments, or having to act casual during romantic letdowns, all packed with wit and comedic timing.
  • “I thought we were just going to have sex.” (65:58, acting out awkward date scenarios)
• The lost art of kissing and foreplay: Both agree authentic conversation and build-up are essential and undervalued today.
  • “Conversation is foreplay. I mean, it isn’t for everybody. It is for me.” (70:25)

10. Joy, Friendship, and Living Out Loud

• Refusing to shrink: Both women reaffirm the necessity of living ‘big’ and rejecting pressures to keep their personalities or ambitions small.
  • “Anything that makes me feel small, I don’t want it. I want to be able to choose when I want to be small or when I want to be big or when I want to be loud or when I want to be quiet.” (46:33)
• Importance of friendship: Throughout, the conversation buzzes with mutual support, celebration, and deep platonic love.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legacy & Name:
  • “I am Tracee Ellis Ross. So that every time I'm up there, Bob Ellis knows that's my kid, and Diana Ross knows that's also my kid.” (05:24)
• On “Girlfriends” Impact:
  • “I spent 173 episodes for 8 years talking about not being chosen...it was a way for me unconsciously to reclaim that I am the chooser.” (22:52)
• On Societal Standards:
  • “But it's patriarchy, it's ageism, it's sexism, it's misogynoir. It's all of these things and they have a name for a reason, you know?” (24:56)
• On Social Media Judgment:
  • “It's just none of my business.” (49:31)
  • “I remember saying to one person on camera, I said, will you get out of my womb?” (27:19)
• On Aging & Expression:
  • “I want the life in my face. I don't want to look like a baby dolphin. I don't want it.” (32:15)
• On Choosing Yourself:
  • “I am responsible for my own happiness.” (23:59)
• On Vulnerability & Living Out Loud:
  • “It is confronting for people to have a woman just live out loud...I don’t know why that's so confronting for people.” (44:29)
• On Love & Connection:
  • “I love consistent connection. So what would that be as a love language?” (70:32)
  • “Conversation is foreplay.” (70:25)
• Comedic high point:
  • “I'm not over safety neck!” (63:32)
  • “Open up my legs. Then we can get into something—that’s so interesting. Also, kissing is really underrated.” (69:32)

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Important Timestamps

• Intro, Gifting, Entrepreneurship: 01:22–04:00
• Naming, Identity, and Zodiac Talk: 04:00–08:50
• Acting, Memory, and Broadway Project: 12:00–16:40
• “Girlfriends” and Being the Chooser: 17:40–24:00
• Legacy, Black Girlhood & Child of Legends: 25:44–27:00, 47:09–48:26
• Beauty Standards, Aging, Expression: 29:02–32:15
• Art, Storytelling, and Black Creativity: 34:46–38:32
• Social Media, Public Critique: 49:08–50:29
• Dating Real Talk—Role-Playing Game: 63:53–70:32
• Reflections and Farewell: 71:33–End

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Episode Essence

This episode celebrates the self-possessed, multi-layered woman who has stepped beyond passive “waiting to be chosen” into active, intentional living. Keke and Tracee root their wisdom in lived experience, family legacy, joy, and deep self-reflection. Their chemistry is electric—serving laughter, mentorship, and mutual admiration—proving that living out loud, in full color, is possible and beautiful at every age.

Final Takeaway:

“Your life is not on hold. Trust the life you're building. Trust the love that's already around you. And trust yourself enough to know that your path doesn't have to look like anybody else's.” (72:06)

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For anyone seeking permission to move forward, love their journey, and chart their own path, this episode is a vibrant, joy-filled manual from two women who do just that.

Transcript

[Keke Palmer]

Today I'm sitting down with the one and only Tracee Ellis Ross. You know her from girlfriends Blackish patterned beauty, her iconic fashion and now her Broadway debut in every brilliant thing. But beyond all of those accomplishments, Tracee has become part of a much bigger conversation about what it means to build a full life on your own terms. Okay, we are talking legacy, love, friendship, family, beauty, joy, solo travel and the freedom the that comes from trusting yourself instead of someone else's timeline. She is one of my favorite humans on the planet. No lie. Let's get into it because baby this is Keke Palmer and this is Tracee Ellis Ross. No matter what we doing in the car, just chilling pop on Amazon music, sit back and listen. Life, love, sex, science, covering it all, especially the bad. Cause money always evolved. No matter what it is we gonna make it make sense. Nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kings. So grab you a drink and a snack you enjoy and get into the vi that only one you know it's your girl. Baby, this is, this is Kiki. Baby, this is Kiki Palma. Yeah. Tracy, my girl. You look fabulous.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh my God, you look fab.

[Keke Palmer]

The fashion is always giving everything it needs to give. Come on, pull back.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Hold on a second. Hi legs.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Hi leg. I brought these legs out for you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Hi legs. I'm so glad you brought them.

[Keke Palmer]

Somebody's gotta have em. Kiki, you're back in New York in your city.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh yeah, girl.

[Keke Palmer]

Wait a minute. What's in your hands?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's a gift for you. I brought you a little something.

[Keke Palmer]

You are just too classy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I brought you a little something.

[Keke Palmer]

My baby girl.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, but let me just move my ponytail.

[Keke Palmer]

He experience freedom. Enjoy. I just truly adore you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Ah, right.

[Keke Palmer]

You know that it gets to a point where it's like I hope I don't fan out too much with her so she can still be my friend.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh my God. We're jo. Yeah. No, you're good girl.

[Keke Palmer]

You're my favorite. I absolutely adore and love this packaging. Oh my gosh, these cards. So this is a QR code that I get to visit somewhere. Love the technology that's attached to this.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So I made two frames. I made the Freedom frame, which is those. And then I also made the truth frame. May youy experience freedom.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm not letting them sit on my nose just so I don't mess up my makeup.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, don't mess up your makeup. So you can block the haters. Baby. You can block the haters Can I

[Keke Palmer]

just tell you that I'm really happy that I get to be in this product era of Tracy Ellis.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God.

[Keke Palmer]

You. I'm so happy for getting every product. First of all, they're top of the line. You know, pattern love and adore what you've been able to accomplish with that company from the great product it is. But also as a businesswoman. We talked about that over dinner. It's not easy. Anybody who starts something would. And so now that we're getting years.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

For the love of God. Yeah. I mean, you know, it all started actually with the JCPenney clothes that I did.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It gave me the. Well, we can talk about that. But it was the.

[Keke Palmer]

But you just saw that it could be.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was the beginning. And I always wanted to do the hair. I've been trying to do that forever. But when the J.C. penney thing actually happened, one of my thoughts was, could I make enough money here to put it towards the dream that I actually want to be doing? Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

Because it's an investment.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's an investment. It's a journey. It's like. And it's a trial and error. It's like learning something new. But anyway, I jumped in. But, yes. Little gift for you so you can block the haters.

[Keke Palmer]

I love my gift, girl. I can't wait to be outside.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Just outside. Just like, ooh, who you. If you're looking at me, I'm not looking at you.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. Okay, we'll start with our pre show pull up.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

Do it now. It's so funny because you kind of created your own name. I mean, your dad is Ella Silverstein.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

Obviously your mom is Ross.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you want to know the story?

[Keke Palmer]

Please give me the story.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So when I explain it, you're like, oh, I see. So I was born Tracey Joy Silberstein. My middle name is Joy. That's what's on my birth certificate. And then Tracy Joy Ross Silberstein became the name that I had all through grade school. So I was tjrs. Okay. And I don't know where, what, why. I don't know what that was. I don't know. I don't know. And then we lost Silberstein because my dad. This is so complicated. So ridiculous. My dad and my dad is Robert Ellis Silberstein, but he goes by Bob Ellis.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Him and his wife, my stepmom, are Bob and Susan Ellis. So we dropped Silberstein because I know Silverstein.

[Keke Palmer]

I love Silberstein.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I love Silberstein, too. I love Silverstein.

[Keke Palmer]

He wanted out of there.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

S I, L, B, R, S T I N. You know what I mean? Okay. My family was probably silversmiths back in

[Keke Palmer]

the day when they came through lsr,

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

you know what I mean? However, we all dropped Silberstein, I became Tracy Joy Ross. And then here's the key. When I joined sag, I was. You know, nobody uses their middle name. You're Tracey Ross. And when I joined sag, there was another Tracey Ross. Remember, Tracy? No, you're too young. Tracey Ross from Star Search.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, wow. I remember Star Search, though. I tried to get up on. There was the. Oh, it let me through.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, you know what, Kiki? You did fine. I think we're okay. We can let go of that resistance. Literally.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm still holding on to.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, no, no. We can drop that grudge. O. You did it. All right. Okay. Anyway, so there was another Tracee Ross. And so I could put Joy in my name and be Tracey Joy Ross. But I really wanted, when my name hit the screen, for everyone to know that I was not just my mom's daughter, but also my dad's daughter. And so I am Tracee Ellis Ross. So that every time I'm up there, Bob Ellis knows that's my kid, and Diana Ross knows that's also my kid,

[Keke Palmer]

and it's like she's proud of us both.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

There you go.

[Keke Palmer]

Which is just so kick ass. My son. I always thought about adding, like, Palmer to it, but if he wanted to, I would. I mean, if he did, like, a situation like what you did, I would be just so thrilled.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It just. I don't know, it just felt. Yeah, it felt right.

[Keke Palmer]

It's the sweetest.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I also. When I was choosing names, which is a really fun thing to do, I was like, tracee Ellis Ross. Sounds important.

[Keke Palmer]

It really does.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It sounds like I like gravitas.

[Keke Palmer]

It's like, Tracee Ellis Ross.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, hello. It's Tracee Ellis Ross. It's a double E, a double L, a double S.

[Keke Palmer]

You're crazy. I love that. Oh, my gosh, I love that. Okay, boom. Name down. Now your zodiac sign girl.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, try and guess.

[Keke Palmer]

You're so much fun. It's like, you have to have some SAG in there. There has to be.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, so I watch your show. I listen to your podcast. I pawed with you, Keeks. So I.

[Keke Palmer]

You did it all.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I knew this question was coming, so I asked our dear friend Claude.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. Claude broke it down for you. Come on. Anthropic.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But Claude told me, and I've saved it into my notes. I'm so sorry. And by the way, the subject of the note is Kiki.

[Keke Palmer]

I love that people know this about me. Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So, okay, so Scorpio sun.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Fabulous.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Just duh. And I'm an October Scorpio, so it's the real deal. You know what I mean? I say that.

[Keke Palmer]

She said, so. It's the real deal. Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Because I. Those November Scorpios are different. Are my breasts showing? No. Okay, so I was disappointed. I do have cute boobs. Okay, I'm crazy. The core self. Do you want me. No, we don't need to do that.

[Keke Palmer]

You can tell me just the top, and then we can get into what you'll tell about it. Exactly.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay. Scorpio sun. Leo Moon.

[Keke Palmer]

Leo Moon. Feel that immediately. What would that mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What would that mean?

[Keke Palmer]

Very sweet, vulnerable, loving. Oh, but also, don't play with me. You don't let nobody play with you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. No, I know that personally with you, please. You know, but so loving. You guys are so, like, give the ends of the world.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I love this.

[Keke Palmer]

You know, I love that about the Leo.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Taurus rising.

[Keke Palmer]

Taurus rising. That matches, too.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What would that mean?

[Keke Palmer]

Well, every Taurus I know is really, really attractive. So that checks out. They're so cutes. See, I don't know how they got blessed with the cute factor. And then also stubborn. I don't know about that with you. Do you feel that you're stubborn?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, I'm not stubborn.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, yeah, that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's Tauruses I know are stubborn. Yeah. I am not stubborn.

[Keke Palmer]

You feel Scorpio heavy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I am Scorpio heavy. I don't know a lot about signs. I dated one Scorpio man, and I was just like, I don't want to date myself. Yeah, I'm not looking for that. I'm enough. I'm a lot.

[Keke Palmer]

I do not want to date no Virgo, man. That is the last thing I would do.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Who I really. I like the Pisces, but I felt like I was gonna run them over.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, they're so sweet.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was so sweet.

[Keke Palmer]

Cancers.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom.

[Keke Palmer]

Love em down, though.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, okay. But Scorpio, what am I like? I felt like when I read this. Can I read this because I thought this.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes, please. Because it's probably, like, very independent.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It says, the core self. This is your fundamental drive. Intense, private, all or nothing. Scorpio is associated with depth over surface. You're drawn to what's hidden that is correct. I'm drawn to what's hidden. You don't do small talk easily. Correct. And when you commit to something or someone, it's total whoa. There's a strong will here and a knack of seeing through people. The shadow side is a tendency towards control.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I've done a lot of work on that, though. Yes, it's correct. I've done my work, my homework toward control. Brooding or holding grudges. But no, I'm not a. I've had

[Keke Palmer]

to do some work. I'm currently still doing some work on that. Grudge holding. I've always had a little bit of that. When I was younger, I used to always just. Yeah, just, you know, hold on. Like, I just brought up Star Search. Like, Star Search. Why would I do that?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, that's interesting. I was trying to think if I've done work on that or this. I just naturally didn't have that. But I understand that. I really understand it.

[Keke Palmer]

I've always felt like Scorpios and Virgos were like twins, but Scorpios were not so passive. Where sometimes Virgos can. We can try to just so hard to hold it in and just try to be so no big deal. You guys expose it. And I think it's better that you, like, get it out. You say it and you're like, you know what I mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That is very. But it's also the way my family is. It's like, you say it and then it's done.

[Keke Palmer]

I don't know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

With my siblings, I can go from zero to 150 in a fight in two seconds. And then five minutes later, what are we doing for dinner?

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. Because you got it. Because you didn't hold it in and play around. That's a good quality. I love that about every Scorpio I know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think the reason I don't hold grudges, though, is because I don't have a great memory. I'm one of those people who will be, like, in the middle of hugging someone and be like, I think I'm mad at them. Why? I don't remember. Can you remember it? Oh, well.

[Keke Palmer]

Hi.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, I just. It's not.

[Keke Palmer]

That's when you know you're too happy and good in life. Like, what do I have time to hold on to this for?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I feel like it's a memory issue, personally. I mean, I like that take on it. Kiki.

[Keke Palmer]

Hilarious.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know. Your posture is so good.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. Thank you. I feel like I have to in this Dress because it's so. You know what I mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, I got you.

[Keke Palmer]

I don't want to be like, boop, boop.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, I know. Well, either one of us could be boop, boop, boop. It'll be a great episode. Do you know what I mean? It'll just be boop and a boop.

[Keke Palmer]

Our parents have the same birthday. My only reason why I know is because obviously your mother's Diana Ross. And my dad has always been obsessed with her. He'd be like, you know, I got the same birthday as Diana Ross. You know, me and Diana Ross.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You had the same birthday. So I always. Your dad or your mom?

[Keke Palmer]

My dad. March 26th, right?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, yes.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. My dad always. He let me know I knew it all my life. Very random, but I always knew it. What is your love language?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you know? I don't know.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. You never did one of the little tests I did. And you didn't agree.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, no, I don't remember. Which, by the way, is why I had to do this. Do you know how many times I've had more horoscope done?

[Keke Palmer]

I wonder what it is.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I just. I remember things that feel important to me. Yeah. So I have an impeccable memory with certain things and with things that sort of don't. I don't know, don't hold a place in your heart.

[Keke Palmer]

How does it work with, like, your lines and stuff?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Very easy.

[Keke Palmer]

Right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Because I can remember stories. I remember stories. Short term memory is good. Like on Blackish, you could have given me a script that day and we were fine. But like this. For every brilliant thing, it's different. It's long term memory. So for me, it's about inhabiting story.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And understanding. Cause, you know, you could tell me a story about your life and spend two hours telling me with detail and it wouldn't be like, oh, I can't remember. Yeah, for me it's the same thing. And so what I try and do is discover who this person is, that part of me that is that person, and learn the story.

[Keke Palmer]

I really relate to that because once you know that, there's only so many places it can go for that archetype in this world, in this situation, and

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

then you know who they are. And no matter what the sort of scenario is, you understand it and you've placed yourself in their experience.

[Keke Palmer]

And have you guys already started? You haven't started even the rehearsals for every Brilliant thing?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, I'm in the studying process.

[Keke Palmer]

You're in the studying process? What let you know this is the project you wanted to do. I know we'll get into it, but I just. Since we brought it up now, what made you say, okay, you know what?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'll do that for me, always. It's about the material.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And so there's. Since I was early and young as an actor, whenever I'm reading something and I start without realizing it, reading it out loud.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. Oh, my gosh. I know what you mean with that. Because, like, I really wanna be this girl.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's fascinating now.

[Keke Palmer]

I wanna be this girl, and then

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I wanna keep reading. Cause I wanna be like.

[Keke Palmer]

I feel you on that. Right. When I start feeling like you wanna start trying out the Voice, you wanna try her out for size.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So that's the first thing that Lee.

[Keke Palmer]

I love that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. Which is like, I love being an artist in that way.

[Keke Palmer]

I know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's just like, oh, my God, get me in there. So that's so fun. Right. The second thing is. And you and I both have the same thing where there's a sense of abandon and freedom. That I was trying to explain that to somebody. What I do allows me to feel absolute freedom regularly. It's extraordinary.

[Keke Palmer]

It is extraordinary.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's an extraordinary experience. Yeah. It's really not.

[Keke Palmer]

You don't get to be trapped in one idea of anything.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's amazing. And it gives you that opportunity to always think of how other people would think of that. And then. Cause no one thinks they're a bad person. No one thinks they're stupid. No one thinks they're crazy. So it's actually people who are crazy don't think they're crazy. You know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

They know exactly how they got there.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Exactly. And so that's really fun. So the first is the Voice. Then at this point in my career, the fun part is sort of going past that. Who is this person in this world? What is this world? What is the actual story? And then who are the players? Who are the people involved? What about this feels like it. It moves what I want in life forward.

[Keke Palmer]

And this show is all just you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[Keke Palmer]

So this is very Kiki girl. That's like, you know, Kiki.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's my dream.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Kiki. Put me on the stage.

[Keke Palmer]

Come on, Scorpio.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Kiki. Kiki. Everyone's like, oh, my God. Are you scared? It's just you. I'm like, no, it's just me.

[Keke Palmer]

You're like, it's just me.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't have to share with anybody. No. What I feel about it is two things.

[Keke Palmer]

I'M screaming.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That is so Scorpion number one. My favorite thing in life is connecting with people.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Even when I do speaking engagements, I love it when the house lights are up.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

There's nothing better to me than telling a story, but to someone.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And so the way this piece is set up, from the moment I read it, I was just like, oh, my God, I'm telling a story. It's a story that exists. It is not my story. The story is strung together by a list of everything brilliant worth living for, from the smallest to the biggest, to kazoos to. You know what I mean? Just like the most delicious thing. So that perspective, for me felt beautiful. But it is told with the house lights up in participation with the audience. You are in it together. So there's a little bit of improv because a few people from the audience play certain roles in the story that I'm telling. And I'm the host, for lack of a better word, in the room. And I get to be in this exchange. And the material is so buoyant. I was so sweet. My mom said, what do you mean by that?

[Keke Palmer]

Right. I thought the same thing. Let your mama ask. I was like, buoyant. I'll be writing it down.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What is this language you're speaking? What does this mean, my dear daughter? And I said, oh, well. I said, imagine this, Mom. Imagine not a balloon that feels airy, but a ball on the pool that never will sink, but yet it can fly. And there's a lightness to it. So it is a piece about mental health. It is about suicide and depression, but it is one of the most life affirming, beautiful pieces of material I've ever read. And it's buoyant. It is filled with all of the humanity that makes you want to live and want to live in connection with community, with other people, because we are all doing this together. Despite what is being preached and put forward. The call of humanity is to do it in community and to do it with each other.

[Keke Palmer]

You are so excellent with these complex emotions. And I always bring this up, and I have to bring it up again on the podcast because everybody knows me. Girlfriends is one of my favorite shows of all time.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, you're a little bit dressed like Maya.

[Keke Palmer]

Come on, Maya. Maya. In that first season, like, I'm 25, Joan. I'm so tired of you being 25. You were 25 when we met. Like, I literally every single episode, every single season, all the growth of the characters, but there's one particular moment that always sticks out for me. And it makes me cry every time that I watch it. It's the episode when you are talking to Ellis about, I'm happy for my friend. I'm happy for my friend. Girl.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, I get chills.

[Keke Palmer]

That scene. I'm happy for. I'm happy for my friend. I'm happy for my. I'm happy for my. My friend. It's so.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I can go back there in two seconds.

[Keke Palmer]

It's. It's so excellent.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Can I tell you some stuff about that? Please. That was so beautiful, baby.

[Keke Palmer]

This is Icky Palma. Yeah. We are at the peak right now. This is it. July is the absolute top of summer. The most committed, most alive, most everything month of the entire year. The days are long, the energy is high, and everyone you love is finally available at the same time. This is the month summer delivers on everything it promised back in January when you were cold and optimistic. Okay. Okay. So my friends and I found this home on Airbnb and Turks and Caicos. Perfect for a little couple's getaway. Beachfront palm trees, private, secluded. The kind of place where you look around and genuinely cannot see another soul. And you think, oh, it's just us. The whole world disappeared, and all that was left was our little group on this beach. Like we had been dropped there by the universe. Specifically. Somebody's situationship got on the grill and did not disappoint. He was clearly prepared because he brought the sandals and everything. And moments like that, moments where everyone gathers around food that somebody actually cooked outside with the ocean right there. It was the kind of trip you see, stop trying to document because you're too busy enjoying it. We found that stay on Airbnb, and it set the bar for every couple's trip I take for the rest of my life. This is what peak summer can feel like when the space is right. Find a home on Airbnb this summer and meet the moment. Peak summer is not waiting for you to get ready. There are two versions of me at any given moment. There's the version that is on the way somewhere, locked in, unbothered. Do not interrupt me. I have a purpose. And then there's the version that sees a Starbucks and just turns mid stride with absolutely no hesitation. The second one is my favorite version, especially in the summer. I'm the one who orders a tropical butterfly refresher. Guava and passion fruit flavors, these mango pineapple flavored pearls that pop in your mouth, and a butterfly pea flower infusion on top that just shifts the color of the whole drink right in front of you. And I stand there watching it happen like it's the most important thing that happened all week because it might be one small choice can lead to a whole shift. Unlock your best summer memories with the Tropical butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Order now. On the app,

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

there were, I think, four I'm happy for my friends lines. There was only four of them. And I was like, you can't tell me how long it takes to get where I need to go.

[Keke Palmer]

That's so true.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I didn't know how long it would take for me to go where I needed to go. And I don't know why I can't think of that actor's name. Holy moly.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. He's from British. He's British. Oh, my gosh. I know. His character on the show name was Ellis, and he was an actor. You dated him for a while on the show.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

He played the lobster, remember?

[Keke Palmer]

Yep, he played the lobster. And then I. And then he said we were fishing for lobster. Joan thought she had something going on with him. I never saw it for y' all personally on the show. I was tired of you and Ellis. The one I wanted you with was the sex addict.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That was Dondre.

[Keke Palmer]

I loved him. And you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What was his name on the show?

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, Adrian. Oh, that was Adrian. Lester was Adrian. Lester was Ellis.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

He was Ellis.

[Keke Palmer]

But you and the man, this man, that was a sex. Oh, I hated. I didn't get why Joan didn't take her ass to New York.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Just.

[Keke Palmer]

Why didn't Joan do this?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

This is fantastic. Anyway, sorry, by the way, I still have that dress, which I can get it up my knee. You. I was so skinny. I was so skinny. I feel like in my older age that I'm at now that I'm heading back to that skinny place. Cause, like, I've lost some of my thickness.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. How did it happen? How did you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I believe it's just getting old. I don't know. My muscle mass is cutting itself in half. I mean, I'm going with it. Do you know what I mean? I'm going with it. I'm loving it, embracing it. But literally, sometimes screaming. Sometimes I'm like, where is my thick? And then sometimes I turn around and I go, oh, it's still there. It's in a different place, but it's also not the same thick. I don't know. It's all different.

[Keke Palmer]

Our bodies change.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

They change. And whatever.

[Keke Palmer]

Womanhood.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm just very grateful that it's still holding me up. You know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But I still have that dress. And I just remember that moment. And I remember that take was that take. And it was such a. That was such a moment, but also that was such a time, you know? What a thing. Kiki. That's so crazy. I spent 173 episodes for eight years talking about not being chosen. Yeah. And when I came out of that show, I didn't realize how much my cells had taken that on that sense of story. And you know, a lot of people, I talk very publicly about the idea of being the chooser. And I don't think I did it consciously to talk publicly about it, but it was a way for me unconsciously to reclaim that I am the chooser. Yes. That I am worthy of choosing the right partner and that I don't have to sit around being a prize to wait to be chosen. That I am actually. Which goes back to how you intro'd me, you know, that I am. I am responsible for my own happiness.

[Keke Palmer]

But I feel like that's why that character is so meaningful to me. And I think it's a rite of passage to go through the process of watching Girlfriends and falling in love with Joan and realizing that Joan was. Her biggest issue was that she always was the chooser. And she pretended that she wasn't.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She just didn't know.

[Keke Palmer]

She didn't know because when she. When old boy wanted to marry her, she found a reason not to. When she found the opportunity with William, her long friend, she. That really was never meant to be her storyline. But we're told so much as women, and I relate so much to Joan, I relate so much to what you talk about. Because I've always felt that way about myself.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, we've talked about it a lot.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, all the time. Because it's like, I don't know why the world decides that. What validates me is this. But the truth is, like, what if I'm genuinely telling you that I do love love, I do love experience, but I. I'm not attached to a particular outcome? Why don't you believe me? You know?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, I mean, it's a real thing. I mean, you don't wanna go to the big archetypes, but it's patriarchy, it's ageism, it's sexism, it's misogynoir. It's all of these things and they have a name for a reason, you know? And I think for me growing up, I never. I didn't know. I thought it was my Own personal albatross. My own personal failing, my own personal self hatred. Like I named it all the things for so many years. All the things. And all of the things I named it were my fault, you know, I mean, all the things.

[Keke Palmer]

I named it because I'm not fitting.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct. And, you know, you and I, we've talked about this. Yep. I mean, you know what I mean? I mean, listen, if Kiki and I were made. If there's a soup where they're making people. Kiki and I were probably in the same suit.

[Keke Palmer]

The same soup.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I mean? Was the same soup.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Might have came out on different ends in different states in different places, but same soup. Same soup, you know? I mean, full identity. Like, I came out like this. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Like, I'm a person who knows who I am, and I feel like I always have. And I feel like you always have.

[Keke Palmer]

Always.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, we've seen you from. I mean, what was the first one? The bee. Yep.

[Keke Palmer]

Akilah and the bee.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Akilah and the bee. Was that the first one?

[Keke Palmer]

Yep, that was the. Well, the first one that people really were like, where we would know. Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Where we were like, who's that?

[Keke Palmer]

Exactly.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And so. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.

[Keke Palmer]

I always think about the fact that you're the original Blue Ivy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Rhonda really is.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Rhonda, my older sister.

[Keke Palmer]

Shout outs to Rhonda.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Berry Gordy and Diana Ross. She's the original Blue Ivy.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. It's so true.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm not sure where you would put me, but you know Maya Rudolph and Rashida Jones.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I mean? We're in that camp. We're over there.

[Keke Palmer]

Iconic children

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

who all have really claimed our identity.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

An incredible side of our. Our parents embrace and their. The way that they've paved. That they paved and the space that they created not only in the industry, but for us. Yeah. But. Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Insane.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. What's a question you wish you were asked more in interviews, if there is one?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know. I don't think there. I mean.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, you get. I mean, you get so many cool questions because everybody knows you're so smart. So I feel like we can feel like we can ask you anything.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. And I feel like I don't feel afraid to be asked anything because if I don't want to answer it.

[Keke Palmer]

I just won't.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel afraid to say. I'm not answering that. I've said that to people. I remember we went through a phase. I went through a phase, like, during Blackish where I swear to God, people were asking me why I hadn't had children and had. I thought about it, and I remember saying to one person on camera, I said, will you get out of my womb? And she was like, oh. I said, no. But really, like, why are you asking me that question? That's insane.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause what can I say? Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm like.

[Keke Palmer]

And all them kids.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Why am I having that conversation with you?

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. Like, I was like, I don't even

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

understand what's happening right now. So bizarre. Stop.

[Keke Palmer]

That's so true.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I was like, stop. I. I am not.

[Keke Palmer]

Sometimes interviewers take that interview too far. Like, you know, come on now, girl. Now you just trying to get into my.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I literally felt like this.

[Keke Palmer]

I was like this, mama. Yeah. Like you. It's not even.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Wait, is that vintage?

[Keke Palmer]

This is your boy, Sergio Hudson.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I was just gonna. Yes, it is, Sergio. You know that our love bug.

[Keke Palmer]

Our love bug. We love you, Sergio.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We love you, Sergio.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What is the best what not to love about you, Sergio?

[Keke Palmer]

Those robes that you guys did, the collaboration on For a Pattern was so sickening.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

They were based on the robes my mom used to wear backstage. What?

[Keke Palmer]

The fabulosity just consumes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It just consumes. Do you know I live in this milk? What? I don't know what I just said. Kiki, take it back. Kiki.

[Keke Palmer]

You know what? Did you ever work with? Because I feel like you guys also remind me of each other, and I would have loved to see you do some movies like her. Diane Keaton. Did you guys ever work with.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She directed me in my first film.

[Keke Palmer]

You guys. I mean, you just, like. It's Annie Hall. Like, it's like you have that kind of thing as well, where it's just, like, kooky fun, like, whimsy. Like, ah. Like, I'm so.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So. Diane Keaton. I would say Carol Burnett. Lucille Ball. Diane Keaton. I mean, come on.

[Keke Palmer]

What? Right?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Karen, the archetype.

[Keke Palmer]

The archetype of a lifetime.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, of a lifetime. Of a lifetime. And it still holds up. Because you know what? It was humor from a different place. Keke. It was not humor about making people feel bad or people falling down or whatever. It was. I mean, come on.

[Keke Palmer]

It was so true. It was humor from the place of, like, A real personification.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God.

[Keke Palmer]

Like, truly leaning into a character. Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And turn up that volume. And you can't be too big.

[Keke Palmer]

You can't be.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You can't be too big. I mean, Carol Burnett, but like, Diane Keaton, for me, was one of those women who I saw age so beautifully. Yes, truly, like just. Oh, my God. And what I saw was, you can never. You will always be full of life if you laugh.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, when she would smile, the entire world lit up.

[Keke Palmer]

No, seriously, just lit up.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I never wanna stop smiling. I never wanna stop giggling. I want my face to make all of that happen.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. Yes. It's so true. I feel the same way. That's why I hate when we get so much into this. I'm not saying people can't get theyself right, but it's like when we get so perfected that we don't at least see the expression, we gotta still get the.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Get outta here.

[Keke Palmer]

Be the gag of it all.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

If you think of me, I'm black. Ish. Half the time I didn't see, okay? What I did was what? I mean, that's all I did. I made faces. You say so much with your face. If my face doesn't move. And then now everybody's obsessed. They're like, when I do this, there's wrinkles, but you need it. Well, this is my other thing. Cause, like, my neck is getting a little bit looser. Okay. It's just. It's like a touch nia long.

[Keke Palmer]

Scared me about the neck. I've been moisturizing it like never before.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You have to, darling.

[Keke Palmer]

It's scary to neck the.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Get your hands and wear that sunblock. I don't care that you're black. Put that sunblock on, okay? Because you know what? The ozone out there is gone. So it's gonna get you, okay? It's coming for you. And let me tell you something. We're all going in the same direction. So my neck is. It's a little bit looser. Okay, whatever, whatever. And I thought I kept. I was doing this the other day, and I was like, well, I mean, if you make it too tight, I don't know about you, but I want to keep looking this way, and I want to keep looking this way, and

[Keke Palmer]

I want to look this way and this way.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't want it so tight. I can't look this way. I want to know who's coming behind me.

[Keke Palmer]

I want to know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You got to keep that neck where it goes.

[Keke Palmer]

No. Because sometimes that gets too pulled too tight. You know, they're like, I want this pull their life.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm like, oh, come on. What are we doing?

[Keke Palmer]

Are you gonna snap? It's gonna snap.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's gonna snap. You don't want that, Kiki.

[Keke Palmer]

That's so scary.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't want to cross my legs and my mouth opens. Do you know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

Or like. Like, it's so tight.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So tight.

[Keke Palmer]

Like, it's so bad.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, I don't want it. Oh, no, no, no. Now, listen, catch me in five years. I might have a different story. And I don't want to hear, okay,

[Keke Palmer]

Tracy, you look great.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Thank you.

[Keke Palmer]

Thank you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Thank you so much. I support everybody making all the choices. You want to love yourself, whatever that looks like for you.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But I also, for me, personally, I love the life in my face.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't want to look like a baby dolphin. I don't want it. Okay. It's too much for today. It's too much.

[Keke Palmer]

Last question for the pre show pull up. Even though it's like, this is all. This is only dead. We're so robust.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm so dead.

[Keke Palmer]

I love how robust we are.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

By the way, I have things that I wanted to talk to you about at dinner and forgot. And I kept a list.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, I'm ready whenever.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, no, no.

[Keke Palmer]

Finish the pull up. Finish the pull up. The last one of the pull up is. Have you ever been starstruck? It was who.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Who was cursing. Hold on. Okay, first of all, I cannot wait till you talk. I have been starstruck, first of all, in hindsight.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay, now this is interesting.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, but in real life, I met Lucille Ball. I presented to her. No, no, no. Hold on. Okay, hold on. I met Carol Burnett. I presented to her at the. What is it called? Is it Peabody Awards?

[Keke Palmer]

Peabody Awards? Yeah, Peabody Awards.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I presented to her, and I thought I was. I really. I really thought I was gonna lose it, But I was like, I got this. I got this. Cause it's Carol Burnett. Okay. I also met Lucille Ball as a kid. And before I met her. Yeah, I know. Before I met her, I was told that she was staying on the same hotel floor as us. And I kept going like this.

[Keke Palmer]

Lucy, I'm home.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Lucy, I'm home. I'm literally. I kept screaming it, and my sisters

[Keke Palmer]

were like, will you shut up?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I was like, but she might hear me. Lucille Ball might hear me.

[Keke Palmer]

Lucy. Lucy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's tracee. Like, I just kept. She did not hear me, I don't think. But I Did meet her. And I mean, just stop. Just hold the presses. Like, close the doors, close the windows. Like what? Okay, wait. I actually made a list of real life. Because some of the most extraordinary people. Andy Warhol painted me and my sisters. What? I met him. I was not starstruck. I was actually frightened.

[Keke Palmer]

Well, probably the look. He had a very distinct look.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I did not understand what was happening. It was. He.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, I realized so much about Andy's work now as an adult that I didn't understand as a kid. And this kind of satirical, reflective thing that he was always doing that I

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

think creating sort of pop culture in art and mixing them in a way that is. It's kind of extraordinary.

[Keke Palmer]

It's extraordinary. And obviously it's inspired where we are today. But I see that kind of meta narrative happening in different mediums in a way that is very much like, akin

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

to what he introduced, by the way. Speaking of that, I love that you know who Andy Warhol is. I love that you have a sense of, like, what about it is interesting to you? And as I've gotten older, like, I think I thought museums were for people who carried clutches and wore and smoked pipes. Do you know what I mean? I don't know that I thought art was for me. And as an adult, I find, you know, Amy Sherrill, Carol Walker, they're Theaster Gates. Knowing Thelma Golden. Do you know Thelma Golden? No.

[Keke Palmer]

Thelma, I do not know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I just know Thelma.

[Keke Palmer]

I know Mickalene Thomas. I know Beast Butler.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

But I'm getting a little into.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So Thelma golden runs the Studio Museum of Harlem. She is a curator. She's a black woman. And she's an extraordinary human being. And she is sort of the epicenter of black art in our culture and in our country and in the world, honestly. And I became friends with her, and she walked me. It was the first time I dated a visual artist back in the day. And I went to a museum with him to see his work at lacma. And I experienced art in a way that I had never experienced before. When you're with the artist. Cause you know, you're not supposed to touch it. It's far away. You know, don't get close. He was like, smell it. Touch it. Because he made it. And I was so blown away by that. And it changed my relationship to art. And then when I went with Thelma golden, she brought me to the opening of Kerry James Marshall's show in Los Angeles, his full retrospective. And she walked me through the exhibit and to hear somebody who knows so much about art explain and talk about a black artist and what it's. Something will never leave me. Can I tell you, please?

[Keke Palmer]

I'm so. I'm singing on every word what she

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

said was Kerry James Marshall. And I don't even know if this is true. But it doesn't matter because of how it stayed with me that when you're in art school, you learn how to create color based on white, the white color of paint. So you mix with white as the base to create color. And I don't know a lot about color. Carrie creates skin tone using black as the base. And it creates this hue within blackness that is. I mean, it's such a beautiful thing. And so we talk about Andy Warhol and the art of Van Gogh, the sister, you know, these different things that we grew up in school hearing about. But as you get older and you get to experience the breadth of art that has been born out of the black experience, it is phenomenal to me. There's a beautiful documentary that was on HBO that's worth seeing. Anyway.

[Keke Palmer]

I love what you're speaking to because the entry point of art is it needs to feel true to you. And I think that I only was able to look at Andy Warhol's work in a different way or even understand in a different way after I had met Mickalene Thomas. And then, honestly, even before that, a relationship that I had started to have with the restaurant Alinea in Chicago, where basically, my entry point had to be that everybody is storytelling in their medium. I did not understand it that way.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's beautiful.

[Keke Palmer]

I didn't understand. I didn't realize that storytelling wasn't just something that. How I know it narratively, in film and television and writing, there's all these

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

different ways to enter.

[Keke Palmer]

And so when I started doing it with food and seeing about it with food, and then I met Mickalene and I started to really understand art as that in that way.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's a beautiful.

[Keke Palmer]

Then it became easier for me to get involved with it. So I definitely need to go check out that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And also movement, dance. I mean, that's a language that is extraordinary. Visual language, graphic design and all that. I find that any form of authentic expression lights my soul up.

[Keke Palmer]

Me, too.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Just lights my soul up.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, wait, I have more people.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

In hindsight. Cause I didn't know how exciting it was. But Marvin Gaye.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, you met Marvin Gaye.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

He used to call the house all the time, Mom.

[Keke Palmer]

It's Marvin, not Mom. It's Marvin.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Mom, it's Michael. By the way, I have a great story from childhood.

[Keke Palmer]

Evan sounds just like Michael.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I know. I think he was very influenced by that Evan.

[Keke Palmer]

He's like, hey, hey, hey. Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Evan's music right now is. Has he sent you stuff?

[Keke Palmer]

He has.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's so good.

[Keke Palmer]

Evan's always been good. But Evan kills me because every time I see him, be like, did you see this with my mom? This is in 1999.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I know he loves her.

[Keke Palmer]

It's the. If Leo doesn't act like that about me, I'm blowing a gas.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But here's the thing about Evan and mom that I realized. Cause I was like, dude, what is the deal? Like, okay, I get it. I've seen the picture.

[Keke Palmer]

He.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I lived it. He didn't.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause you saw her in the main

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I was in was the mom that came home every night.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh, girl, that's crazy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So I lived it. He didn't. So he's experiencing what I lived through the pictures and the videos that he finds.

[Keke Palmer]

It's the sweetest thing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It is the sweetest thing ever.

[Keke Palmer]

Like you said, my mom. My mom, she's just so awesome, man.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I know.

[Keke Palmer]

Look at my mom. She's always been a diva.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Does he ever show you pictures of me? I'm joking. Is that me? Is this my mom? Neat. Okay, whatever.

[Keke Palmer]

Marvin Kaye is Marvin Kaye.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Michael. Oh, here's my Michael story. And then we'll get off.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, gosh, please.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

The starstruck. I did recently meet Martin Short at a Valley.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, Martin Short.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I thought I was gonna. I was like, I love you.

[Keke Palmer]

I love you. I love you. That's how I felt with Steve Martin.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I also cried when I met Annie Lamott, the writer.

[Keke Palmer]

Now any of mine.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She's a wonderful writer, and I love her.

[Keke Palmer]

What do I know? Book.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Books. And I met her and I was

[Keke Palmer]

like, I just really love you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I made an ugly cry. Michael. My mom was on the phone in her room, and she said, does anyone want to talk to Michael before I hang up? And I said, yes. And I came and I said, michael, everybody at school, I'm scared as hell. Cause what did you say that you're just saying I'm a same Asamakusa. But I know what you're saying. And I told them. Cause I know you. I said, you're saying, I've been saying, by the sound of Michael's song. I've been saying, by the sound of Michael's song. And he said, I'm not, but it should be. But that's what I thought he was saying. And I kept telling, you know how when you're a kid, you're like, my dad's a police officer. You know how you, like, put whatever. But I was like, I know him. I know Michael. And he told me. That's what he's saying. You've been saved by the sound of Michael's song. Every time you sing it, that's what you're singing. I've been saved by the sound of Michael's song. I'm gonna ask him. No, it's not what he was saying.

[Keke Palmer]

Yo, I'm a savior.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I've been saved by the sound of Michael's song. I've been saved by the sound of Michael's song. You know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

Yo, I love. I've been saved by the sound of Michael's song.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, how many people have been saved by the sound of Michael's song? I mean, duh.

[Keke Palmer]

Yo, yo, yo, that is really funny. I've been saved by the sound of Michael's song. That's way better than my dad thinking. He said, the ched is not my son. Oh, why would that be it, Dad? I don't know, but Chad is not my. Who the is Chad?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know.

[Keke Palmer]

Chad is not my.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But maybe that was his name, Chad. But, like, do you remember, by the way? I want everyone to know that I have my arms crossed like this, and I look like I'm upset because my armpits are sweaty. So this is not my posture. My posture is really like this. But this is a problem. Okay, okay. Anyway, so.

[Keke Palmer]

And I'm also like this because I'm

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

afraid I'm gonna give him a shirt. We got p. Whatever. That's fine.

[Keke Palmer]

You know what?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

This is what I always say to people when they get upset on set and they're like, oh, you got your hair. It's not matching. I'm like, listen, if my acting is. If you are focused on my hair, my acting is not cutting it, period. So our conversation, it should be so good.

[Keke Palmer]

They shouldn't care how bedraggled we look.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You don't even know. They don't know. They don't know. Uh, but that's okay. But yes, I was saying something that

[Keke Palmer]

I don't remember what we was talking about still, Michael. We was talking about. I'm say by sign of Michael song how funny that is. How funny it is to get the lyrics to people's song wrong sooner or later.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you know What? I thought that was. What is it? Send her a letter.

[Keke Palmer]

What?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What? I mean, but I was singing it in the car once, and my sister was like, what'd you just say?

[Keke Palmer]

It's so crazy how we make up this stuff. Just.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And then you are in it and committed.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. Just too funny. Okay, okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, I'm listening.

[Keke Palmer]

We've talked about so much already. But I feel like I have to ask you, like, go. Was it your intention to become. No.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, Keke, No.

[Keke Palmer]

Because you obviously reflect a version of womanhood that was not in media. You know what I mean? Truly, through your characters, through your work, and then even more so as a personality. When did it become something that you were like, oh, this is unique for you guys. I should lean in? Or this is unique for you guys.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, I don't know how. So it actually goes further underneath that, which is that I leaned in because it's my truth. There has to be an example somewhere between Cat Ladies and Joan of Arc. Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

No, for real.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay. All right. There's gotta be. There's gotta be.

[Keke Palmer]

She's gotta be.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I mean? Like, there's gotta be. You can be sexy and amazing and. And also want a partner and also live your life and also not wait. And also do, like, all those things.

[Keke Palmer]

Just be human.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Just do it. Just go ahead and. I'm sorry. It's so confronting for people to have a woman just live out loud and. Yeah. I don't know why that's so confronting for people. It's puzzling to me. But there's a lot of things, Kiki, that I find puzzling. That I think that people get hung up on that. I don't understand.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm like, why is that so upsetting for you?

[Keke Palmer]

That seems I'm just being me, but I think it's because I can't read people's mind. But what I've at least told myself when I'm experiencing this kind of big uphill battle for me, just simply doing me, is that a lot of people believed that they couldn't and they stayed there. And then they're seeing somebody succeed or be happy by not believing it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well.

[Keke Palmer]

And then it creates this resentment where it's like, no, you're not allowed to have this because they told me.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know that I find it. It from the people that stayed small, I find that those are actually the people that feel empowered.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Or a sense of courage from that. Yes. I find that it comes from people that it threatens Their idea of who they want me to be so that they can get what they want.

[Keke Palmer]

And it's like, what do you want from me?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So it's men that would prefer a small lady. You know, I mean, that's not a fair way to put it.

[Keke Palmer]

Maybe they're threatening. It's like they feel as if this person's threatened in the status quo.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

If you feel like this is what you can do or who you can be and you feel empowered by that image, then in turn, it makes it difficult for me to be able to have that kind of control or have that kind of. You know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. And I really.

[Keke Palmer]

You're just shooting on it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. You were shooting. I mean, you know, I try really hard not to try and get in people's heads and think what they're thinking. Cause I have idea. I mean, I'm bumbling along myself, trying to figure out this life thing. You know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah. I don't know. But what I do push up against is anything that makes me feel small, I don't want it.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I want to be able to choose when I want to be small or when I want to be big or when I want to be loud or when I want to be quiet. I want that to be my choice, and I want it to be everyone's choice.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I really believe that. And I don't know. I mean, I know. It's so funny. Sometimes people get so hung up on things I've said, and I'm like, really? Was that something that was the thing everyone wanted to talk about?

[Keke Palmer]

Neat. Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, I feel like it's so cool that you have such a strong sense of self, seeing as how you came from such a big legacy. That seems like something that could really weigh you down, people having expectations of you early on.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think it did. When I was younger.

[Keke Palmer]

How did you. Was it your. Was your mom encouraging you? Was it your life experiences? Like, how did you be able to not let that burden you even before you became, you know, famous in your own right?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, even from high school, I felt very aware of being watched. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, I felt very aware from a young age. I remember I was like, I can't get in the car with them. I don't know. I would always. You know, I'm a storyteller, and I love it. I'm very dramatic. So I was like, well, I can't get in the car with him because I don't know if they have drugs in the car. And then we get pulled over. Then it's. Diana Ross's daughter has been pulled over. And it's a. You know, it's a cautionary tale, you know, that stressed me out a lot as a kid. It was always. I always felt. I mean, then also, as a black girl, you know, that we. It's always like, you. You had to be.

[Keke Palmer]

You had to overcompensate for so many perceived things about you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Correct.

[Keke Palmer]

I gotta be happy. Cause you think I'm angry. I gotta be jazzy. Cause you think I'm.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know, I gotta be smart because you think I'm dumb. I gotta be. I mean, like, whatever the. Whatever the thing.

[Keke Palmer]

Right?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So. And I think that's a universal experience where we share, you know, and there's the uniqueness of my mom and who she was and who. Who she is. I shouldn't say was, but I meant was because I was a kid.

[Keke Palmer]

I know what you meant.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So I don't know. I don't know what other people's thoughts. I mean, I did. I was scrolling through. I was looking for something I did, and I was scrolling. I don't really understand the TikTok. I like the TikTok.

[Keke Palmer]

The UI is a little bit tough for me. It's also, bam. In your face.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It screams at you. And sometimes you open it, it abuses you. You know what I mean? But so I'm in there sometimes. Anyway, I went in there and I saw this thing. You know, you get the little seconds of the beginning of the video. Tracee Ellis Ross is a bad example for young girls. And I was like. And I was like, scroll. I said, I don't know. I feel like I'm a good example. I don't know what you think, but to each his own. I don't have to be everybody, but it's.

[Keke Palmer]

Every other week, it becomes a thing. Every other week, it becomes a thing about anybody. And it's like, yeah, with the Internet, I have a. Yeah. I wonder, how do you feel about it? Like, are you the person that's commenting? I feel like I never see you comment back anything. I feel like I only get a chance. And a great opportunity to hear from you outside of our great friendship is in an interview. You decide to talk because it is easy to get caught up in the online. I feel like it might be.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's just none of my business. Yeah, it's. That's. Yeah. I mean, I think everybody should do whatever the hell they're doing. Yeah. But it's just none of my business. Yeah, I do. I do love posting pretty pictures, though.

[Keke Palmer]

Girl, I love your page. I love your page. I love your travels. I love everything you give us. I love when you did the video. It's so funny because I'm like. It's like, so meta because I. I watch Girlfriends all the time. So I'm watching you as a performer all the time. Then I do the POV of, you know, you going over the guy's house, and then you do the same thing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Pov.

[Keke Palmer]

And it's almost. It's like I'm kind of doing you, and then you're joking. Doing me. Doing you. And it's like, how is this.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Wait. First of all, I said you look like Maya. I'm wrong. You've got a Diana Ross thing going on.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. Stop.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Sergio. Sergio. I picked it up. Sergio. I picked it up. I'm late, but I picked it up. Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

Omg. Sergio always knows. He always is doing these little.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes, I see what's happening. Yes. Okay. Sorry.

[Keke Palmer]

But, yeah, like, so. It's so funny. So anyway, social media, you do fun videos. You're really good at it. I mean, what is the process for you with getting.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't do anything for social media. Every once in a while like that, there was some challenge. Is that what you call it?

[Keke Palmer]

Yep.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

There was some challenge that I did the lights off one that was fun. Yeah, that was fun.

[Keke Palmer]

But like, Scorpio energy down.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But mostly I don't. The truth is, the worst thing that ever happened to anybody was that they put a camera on the phone. Cause growing up, I was the queen of the auto timer. Don't give me a camera and don't give me a video camera. Okay. Do you know about my holiday video that started my career?

[Keke Palmer]

No.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, girl.

[Keke Palmer]

Come on, baby. This is Ike Palma. Yeah. In every great production, there is the star. And then there's the thing that makes the star look good without ever asking for credit. Think about it. The right lighting paired with a perfectly timed music cue. The one friend who fixes your collar before you walk into a room. They're unsung, but yet absolutely essential. Life is already asking a lot of you. The best things are the ones that take something off your plate without you even having to ask. That's what Fruit of the Loom women's underwear is in my daily lineup. I'm putting together looks, I'm making entrances. I'm doing the most, as always. And underneath all of it is something so comfortable and so reliable that I genuinely forget it's there. And when you're going to do the most, the last thing you need is one more decision. Fruit of the Loom is the one I already made comfortable, reliable, completely off my mental checklist. The fit doesn't shift and the fabric doesn't fight me. It just lets me do what I do. The most powerful pieces in any ensemble are the ones that elevate without competing. And when something supports you that effortlessly, you stop searching and you start trusting. It becomes the easy choice. Not because it's basic, because it's exactly right. One less thing to figure out. One decision you never have to second guess about. Fruit of the Loom proves that simple feels really good. So I need to talk about something that has been taking up a lot of my mental real estate lately. It started casual. I just stopped in, wasn't even planning on it. And now, now I'm thinking about it in between meetings, telling people about it who didn't ask. This is a Tropical Butterfly refresher from Starbucks, and I am fully aware of how it sounds right now. Guava and passion fruit flavors, mango, pineapple flavored pearls that pop. And this butterfly pea flower on top that shifts the color of the whole drink right in front of you. It's beautiful and delicious and mesmerizing. I don't know where this is going, but I'm not asking questions. Unlock your best summer memories with the Tropical Butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Order now on the app.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

So I was, I was, I was. I mean, this. I'm always so mindful of how I talk. Okay. Anyway, I used a Hi8 video camera in my kitchen and I used to do. I play dress up all the time. It's one of my favorite things to do. If I'm bored, I like to play in my closet. Sometimes I make a good outfit and every once in a while that outfit actually becomes a person. And I have all these alter egos. And so back in what year was I? It was before Girlfriends. It was what got me Lyricist Lounge, my first sketch comedy show. Yeah, I'm older than you. So I. In my kitchen, in my first apartment in la, I did a video and it was like proper editing with like, tape. Like, I went and edited it. It was a VHS tape.

[Keke Palmer]

I have a VHS at home. Okay?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was a VHS tape. And it was Happy Holidays for me and all my alter egos. And I made this tape and I sent it out to like 52 people. Some family, some people in the business. And my mom got a hold of it over Christmas. And she was. She brought me up to her room to talk to me. I was like.

[Keke Palmer]

She thought she was crazy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She was like, is this the right thing to do? And can you get them back? I was like, yeah, it's great. I think it started my career. I think now they all know. Oh, my gosh.

[Keke Palmer]

No judgment. What did people say back?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, it got me the sketch comedy show.

[Keke Palmer]

So they did. So they were like, what did your mama say then? Was she like, damn.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, no. She literally later was like, can I make one? Yeah. I. I have all these different parts of me. You know what I mean? Just like you do, you know, I think when you're a big planet, you have a lot of small planets in you that just do all these different things.

[Keke Palmer]

Come on. Multiverse.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

We live for that. That's right.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Multiverse. I'm taking that.

[Keke Palmer]

No, seriously.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's just like, some days it's like the long hair. Some days I'm this person, some days I'm that. Yeah. Tell me when you get to a place where you want me to bring my topic up.

[Keke Palmer]

I want now.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay. Yes. So I have a question for you. This is such a Kiki Tracy topic. Can we talk about male beauty standards and where they came from? Like, can we even maybe Google it? Cause I'm really curious. Where did.

[Keke Palmer]

I love you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Where did lining up black men's hair come from? Where did this come from?

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, the lining up. Right?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, I just wanna understand.

[Keke Palmer]

And when they got the white.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I really love the factory setting. I personally. You know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

I love. I mean, my thing is I want it slightly touched, but, like, you don't need to be, like, where it's like a hell shaved. Jermaine. I love Jermaine. I love Jermaine's. J.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We love you.

[Keke Palmer]

I love Jermaine, but that's.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's different. Okay, Skip, but where did. I just wanna know. Like, you know, we can track back where, like, some of women's beauty standards,

[Keke Palmer]

but, like, where is it? It had to be somebody in rap scene.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You think it was like Mace?

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, but his was relaxed.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, it was okay.

[Keke Palmer]

It was like, soft. He had a soft one. He had a. Like, I feel like it was somebody that was like, probably from Philly.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay. That was where it began. It was like, what. What's it called? The. When they put the ink.

[Keke Palmer]

That definitely had to be. I feel it was Philly.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was Philly.

[Keke Palmer]

I feel it was Philly.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It was. I mean, like, we know with the conch, like back in the day, like, we understand all that, but, like, the line.

[Keke Palmer]

I don't know why they want that so tense.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You see? You see me. You see me. You see me not lifting my arms up.

[Keke Palmer]

And sometimes it's the white line. They keep the white line.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

They keep the white line. And then it has been taken to another level because let me tell you something. A man in cornrows. I'm done. Okay? Give me a hamstring and a cornrow, and I'm done. I'm done. I'm finished. It's over. Don't. I'm a leg per. Don't. Okay. And cornrows. But if you cornrow and line it

[Keke Palmer]

up, that's what they be doing. That's what they be doing. It's like a baby hair before the line of the hair of whatever they got going on. But sometimes with the locs, I'm not mad. Sometimes with locs, I'm not mad. But I do want to know why a previous hair lock? Why a preview hair lock for the real hairdo?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I am curious, and I. This is not a judgment. This is, like, a real conversation. I want to understand it. Do you know what I mean?

[Keke Palmer]

And they are serious about that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, but, like.

[Keke Palmer]

But, like, they are serious about that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But so serious.

[Keke Palmer]

And I've never seen a woman say, ooh, I can't wait to see the preview hairline before the hairdo. Like, I've never seen. We don't get. We're not like, ooh, we're fine with it. No, but I'm just telling you how they feel about us. With some of this stuff, we.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, maybe. But this. This is why I'm saying this was. This was not a judgment conversation. It's just a genuine dialogue. Because I genuinely sometimes think, you know, with women's beauty standards, you're like. You can trace it back and you can understand. I'm like, what was the.

[Keke Palmer]

You know what I mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like, this is what. This is what I'm bringing. Is it that I want you to know that I have a hairline?

[Keke Palmer]

That I've got a money. I got money and I'm clean.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I got money and I'm clean.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm clean.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

I think it has some. I think it does have something to do with, like, I'm fresh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm fresh.

[Keke Palmer]

They definitely want something.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's like, clean. It's like. It's like washing your hands. Shoelaces. No shoelaces in the sink. Do you know what I mean? It's like shoelaces have a thing. I get it.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

But see, I have a lot more appreciation for it when I understand it.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And I felt like it was a conversation. The conversation, pre conversation, the appetizer conversation I wanted to have with you so that then I could bring it to a garcon and say, talk to me. I want to know about the hairline. Like when you go get lined up. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But I do love a factory setting.

[Keke Palmer]

I like. I'm cool. Look, it's gotta be right, though. I do like when a brother kind of makes himself look. Make himself look nice. But I don't really love when it's too programmed. So I'm with you on the program.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You give me. You give me that cornrow uncornrowed. And a hamstring. I'm weak. My knees are weak. I can't say no.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm screaming, you're screaming. So wait a minute.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I hope to be screaming.

[Keke Palmer]

And a lot of times that's not what happens.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No. No, it's not. But we can hope. A girl can dream. A girl can keep walking in that direction. And you know what? Even better, a woman can, too.

[Keke Palmer]

You know what I mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I mean? So, yeah, I really. I just had one day. I was sitting. I can't remember who.

[Keke Palmer]

What I was.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, I was watching basketball, and I was just like, huh.

[Keke Palmer]

What is that?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Now, let me tell you, basketball, they don't create the biggest hamstrings because they need to be agile.

[Keke Palmer]

What do you mean?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, if you think of a hamstring, what sport do you think of?

[Keke Palmer]

Football, girl. And they got hamstrings in their neck, too.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, I didn't. I didn't say I wanted a neck. I didn't say I wanted a hamstring in the neck. I don't want. I do sometimes wonder when the neck comes out of the ears.

[Keke Palmer]

They're huge. Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, no, I'm not saying that.

[Keke Palmer]

What's doing that?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Well, think about it this way. If your head's gonna get knocked around like that, you better make that strong again. Do you know what I mean? You gotta say it's safety. Safety. It's a safe.

[Keke Palmer]

You know what?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Kiki. Kiki. It's a safety neck.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my God.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It's a safety net.

[Keke Palmer]

No, it's a safety net.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

First of all, what I would. You know what we're gonna do?

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh. That gave me so much joy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Do you Know what our next television show is?

[Keke Palmer]

What is it?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Because we, first of all, you and I are gonna do a movie. That's for sure. But we need to do a TV show where you and I just commentate on swords and we just sit there. We just need to sit there and do our ver. Did you see the way he put that ball in the net?

[Keke Palmer]

Did you see it ended up being so sexual.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh my God.

[Keke Palmer]

The way he dropped down on that floor. Something was happening.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Did you see that? Yeah, he fell on the floor. It's all wet down there.

[Keke Palmer]

And who's the ref?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Talks. Who's the guy who talks too much?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

He talks to. And he's always wearing black. They don't have no other colors for him. Uh, they need to get some more colors for those people.

[Keke Palmer]

That's good.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I want to whistle like the ref. I'm gonna get out there. Keke, we're totally.

[Keke Palmer]

I wanna yell at somebody.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Exactly. Kiki, we are totally doing that show.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm here for that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

Who do we've got? I know some people we could call.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, we're gonna call them.

[Keke Palmer]

Come on.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Mm. And generationally, I feel like we will

[Keke Palmer]

tap all and we can even go back and do comparisons of old school. Yes.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And talk about them.

[Keke Palmer]

We can get into the.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh my God, that's so good.

[Keke Palmer]

Who was really fine and why? Who looked like they got movement on that court.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And by the way, did their fine from back then hold up now? Like when you look at it. Cause I look back at some of my childhood crushes.

[Keke Palmer]

I didn't realize that Michael Jordan was fine.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, I knew.

[Keke Palmer]

I didn't realize when I look back now.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, no. It's unbelievable. Those early pictures and the clothes. I can't. It's literally heart stopping.

[Keke Palmer]

Absolutely.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

It is heart stopping.

[Keke Palmer]

He didn't have no business being like that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No. And that good.

[Keke Palmer]

And that good. Woo.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Micha.

[Keke Palmer]

Michael Jordan.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

I would have been like Michael Jorna. Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like just like.

[Keke Palmer]

Nah, nah nah nah nah, nah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

We're at the game. We're at the game.

[Keke Palmer]

We're at the game.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Like literally.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. I would have been up there.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Wait, Keke, you just did something that I need to understand because all the kids are doing this. What is that?

[Keke Palmer]

It's just some freak crazy.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm just trying to be like.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That is insane.

[Keke Palmer]

Just doing some. It is. We be doing too much.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Kiki. I mean, I'm gonna do it.

[Keke Palmer]

It reminds me of this back in the day.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, okay. But I'm Gonna do. This is hilarious.

[Keke Palmer]

I don't know what it is. I don't know what. I'm tired of the millennial world. It's exhausting me.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Am I doing it right? Am I doing too much

[Keke Palmer]

Safety neck? I'm not over Safety Neck.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

This is really. It's a safety neck.

[Keke Palmer]

You're good.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

That's gonna be the name of our

[Keke Palmer]

show, that Safety Neck. Safety Neck with Tracee Ellis Ross and Keke Palmer. I'm here for it. Beyond Billy. Oh, my God. So it's only one thing that's left to do, which is to play a little game.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God. Give it.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. The game is called I Thought there

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

was something Behind Me.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, is it? Is it?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, yeah. That's the card for you. It's called acting casual. Okay. We're going to give each other awkward dating scenarios and take turns acting out how we handle them.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

While pretending we're completely fine. Okay, so I'll give you one first.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

You're trying to be mysterious and sexy on a date, but you think you have food in your teeth.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, I'm going to act it out.

[Keke Palmer]

Yep.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, I love that. Do you want another drink?

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. That was good. Because, I mean, what else you can do?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I had something in my tooth.

[Keke Palmer]

Who doesn't love that? Who doesn't love that? I'm in love.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay, okay. Where am I gonna get now? What am I gonna get?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, I'm just gonna act it out for you. So I'm gonna do something, and I want you to not get awkward.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You have really amazing eyes.

[Keke Palmer]

Thank you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, you did not get awkward in a good way.

[Keke Palmer]

That's so nice. You achieved it.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

He compliments you and you're trying to receive it without getting awkward. You did great. Oh, my gosh, you did great. Okay. You did great like you did the Oscar.

[Keke Palmer]

Come in.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know where it is.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, well, okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Wait a minute.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay, so I'm gonna ask you something.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm gonna say something to you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

And you're gonna pretend that you're not disappointed.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

Uh. Oh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I do not have a poker face. Okay.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, yeah. I feel exactly what you're saying from. But to be honest with you, I'm not really looking for anything serious.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Me neither. I thought we were just gonna have sex.

[Keke Palmer]

I don't know.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Did I play it off well?

[Keke Palmer]

That was excellent. Yo. She's a me either.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

As my insides are crushed Crushed. As you ride with your car over my heart.

[Keke Palmer]

No serious thing.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

And get it stuck in your tire.

[Keke Palmer]

Like, literally, like, why are we here? And it's like, what. What would be the proper response? Like, if I. If I wasn't trying to be on my best behavior? Would it be? Or would it be. Wow, that really has hurt me. But I don't think I can really be around you too much. But I've had a great time. Like, what do you then say?

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I don't know. And why are you telling me right now? Yeah, we're still on the date.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, here, wait.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Try it again. Try it again.

[Keke Palmer]

I always have a really great time with you, and I feel everything you saying, but I'm not really looking for anything serious right now. Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Are you still going to pay? How was that exactly? Okay, I got another one. I got another one.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I've. You know, I love everything always that that happened with us, but, you know, just be honest. I'm not looking for anything serious.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm glad you said that, because you have a friend that I really want you to set me up with now. That's.

[Keke Palmer]

That's the one.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my God. That's the one. Oh, my gosh. Because I was starting to realize that I chose the wrong person.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I mean? Like, thank God you said it. Now I don't have to say it.

[Keke Palmer]

You're the least.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Okay, okay. I'm gonna text you. I text you during your date.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

He's talking, as in me, and I ask you how it's going.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What would you say in the text? Are you gonna text me right now?

[Keke Palmer]

No, I thought I was playing it out. Like, you're on radio. Text me right now. I'm already. Let me see. Let me see. Okay, so. And you're the guy. You're gonna say something to me, so.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, I was. I really loved the way, you know, when they were playing in the game, those guys all made the baskets. That was my favorite part of the game. And I'm glad you went with me. And I loved what you were wearing. I wish you'd worn heels, though.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Thank you, Bo. This crazy. I'm ready to go home.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

She said, he ain't saying I want to go home.

[Keke Palmer]

Because that's how they be, though, sometimes. Every now and then, you get a real good conversation, but sometimes it'll be very.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

You know what I love? I love a man who gives good text.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Text banter is really fun.

[Keke Palmer]

I like text banter, too. I like also, like, keep it spicy, keep it fun. Like, sometimes I do think I have this effect where it's like I become a man's journal entry.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, that's too much.

[Keke Palmer]

I don't want that.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Especially in the first week.

[Keke Palmer]

It's too much. Just give me sex, kitten. You know what I mean? Let me be Jackie Harry.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, no, we, you know, I'm tired of that. I'm so dead right now. I'm so dead right now.

[Keke Palmer]

All right, well, that's my last one. Yeah, like I wanna be. I can get a little. But you gotta give me a chance. You can't keep just opening up to me. I know I'm easy to talk to.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah, no, I got.

[Keke Palmer]

But open up my legs. Then we can get into something

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

that's so interesting. Also, kissing is really underrated.

[Keke Palmer]

My gosh.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

My God. If you can't do it, just walk away.

[Keke Palmer]

Literally. Kiss, kiss, kiss. More kissing, less. Just like.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

What are you doing right now, Kiki?

[Keke Palmer]

That's true.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm like, kiki, more kissing less.

[Keke Palmer]

Less.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

No, Kiki. No. No. That's for year two, honey. With a consent form.

[Keke Palmer]

My gosh, that is so funny. Yeah. I feel like when there's no. When there's no kissing, there's no buildup.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Agree.

[Keke Palmer]

We need a build up.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, it's. That's, you know, I mean, we could talk about it.

[Keke Palmer]

It's a lost art, the foreplay.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I think it is. And I. And I. Conversation is foreplay.

[Keke Palmer]

And that's the biggest one.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, it isn't for everybody. It is for me.

[Keke Palmer]

You know what I mean? Yeah, it is for me too, because.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Wait, what is my love language? First of all, I love consistent connection. So what would that be as a love language?

[Keke Palmer]

Well, it could be anything. It could be sending you pictures, it could be texting, it could be calling.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I'm not a gift person.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, I don't care much about a gift for me. Quality time. Be intentional about spending time with me and physical touch.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I want quality time.

[Keke Palmer]

I want you to be like. I figured that it would be. I don't know what you're up to, but this weekend, if you want to go away and just like me and you plans.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Is that quality time?

[Keke Palmer]

Yes, baby. Planning the time with your girl.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yes. I love this. I love this. And it's the smallest things. It's the smallest.

[Keke Palmer]

I just want to be in a

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

room with you alone.

[Keke Palmer]

And then I'm ready to go. It doesn't last for a room with you alone. Two days max. And then I have to do. And then I'll be back for season two.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Oh, my God, this is so interesting. Yes. Gotta map that out.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Anyway, so thank you, Nick. Me and you.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Kiki. This was the most enjoyable conversation I've had since dinner.

[Keke Palmer]

You're always the best. I mean, it's literally like a big hug, a nice drink.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

I mean, you are the best. You are the best. The world is lucky we have you.

[Keke Palmer]

Ditto. I'm, like, obsessed with you, but you already know, man.

[Tracee Ellis Ross]

Amazing. That was so fun.

[Keke Palmer]

This conversation is a reminder that a full life doesn't have to follow one timeline or fit one definition. So if you take anything from this episode, let it be this. Your life is not on hold. Trust the life you're building. Trust the love that's already around you. And trust yourself enough to know that your path doesn't have to look like anybody else's. Baby, this is Keke Palmer. Baby, this is. This is Kiki. Baby, this is Kiki Palmer.