2025 Reading Preview

Summary

Bad on Paper Podcast: 2025 Reading Preview Episode Summary

Episode Information

• Title: Bad on Paper
• Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
• Episode: 2025 Reading Preview
• Release Date: January 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this special episode of the Bad on Paper podcast, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into their reading plans for 2025, featuring insights and recommendations from five distinguished guests. The episode offers a comprehensive preview of exciting book releases anticipated in the first half of the year, encompassing a diverse range of genres including literary romance, fantastical narratives, and thought-provoking thrillers.

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Hosts' Highs and Lows

Becca Freeman:

• High: "I'm feeling refreshed." (02:58)

  • After a gentle start to the year involving newsletter and podcast activities, Becca feels revitalized and optimistic about receiving feedback on her latest novel draft.

• Low: “The sequel is not quite as bad as the original.” (03:52)

  • Becca expresses anxiety over her apartment building being back on the market, referencing a stressful experience from 2022. However, having a renewed lease provides some peace of mind.

Olivia Muenter:

• High: "I feel reborn." (01:23)

  • Olivia celebrates getting a new laptop, which marks the end of sharing with a friend since the 2023 water spill incident. The fresh setup enhances her productivity and satisfaction.

• Low: Olivia did not specifically mention a low, stating, "I don't really have a low. I've had a really, really nice week." (06:13)

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Guest Interviews and Book Recommendations

1. Alyssa Morris – Romancing the Phone

Background: Alyssa Morris, a freelance literary scout and former Kindle Romance editor at Amazon, brings her expertise from her newsletter Romancing the Phone.

Recommendations:

• Deep Cuts by Holly Brickley (08:23)

  • A literary romance set at Berkeley, exploring an untraditional relationship between two college students bonded by their love for music. Spanning seven years, the novel evokes strong nostalgia for the early 2000s indie music scene.

  “It really reminded me of 'Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow' with this best friends to will they or won't they lovers.” (10:39)

• The Art of Vanishing by Morgan Pager (11:20)

  • An Audible original featuring dual POVs: a night janitor at a museum and a man inside a Matisse painting. This magical love story draws comparisons to The Night Circus for its enchanting premise.

Alyssa Morris's Insights: Alyssa highlights Rachel Gillig's foray into adult romantasy with The Night and the Moth, emphasizing its unique magic system based on tarot cards and its mature themes.

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2. Tao Tai

Background: Tao Tai, author of Banyan Moon and romance writer under the pen name Nora Wynn, shares her literary picks.

Recommendations:

• Slanting Towards the Sea by Lydia Hilja (20:41)

  • A debut literary romance set on the Croatian coastline, featuring a passionate love triangle among three friends. The novel is lauded for its lush descriptions and deep emotional resonance.

  “The interiority is so rich and expansive. I felt like I was there with the characters.” (22:28)

• Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey (24:07)

  • Set on a remote island near Antarctica, this novel follows Dominic and his children as they encounter a mysterious woman, Rowan, during a storm. The story blends survival elements with a touch of mystery and hope.

Tao Tai's Reflections: Tao appreciates the immersive and moody atmospheres in Charlotte McConaughey's works, noting their ability to transport readers into deeply reflective environments.

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3. Josh Laura

Background: Josh Laura, a researcher and writer focused on cultural trends, discusses darker literary themes influenced by societal shifts.

Recommendations:

• Nothing Serious by Emily J. Smith (32:22)

  • A literary thriller centered on a 35-year-old woman navigating the treacherous waters of dating apps. The novel critiques modern loneliness and the complexities of relationships in the digital age.

  “It's being marketed as a sort of literary thriller, but I'm very, very excited.” (34:07)

• Universality by Natasha Brown (35:04)

  • This concise novel follows a young black journalist investigating a murder linked to a single clue—a gold bar. The story delves into themes of class, anarchy, and the intricacies of British society.

Josh Laura's Perspective: Josh emphasizes the cultural commentary embedded within these thrillers, highlighting their exploration of contemporary issues through engaging narratives.

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4. Michelle Martin

Background: Michelle Martin, a wedding photographer and author of the newsletter Literary Leanings, offers her book selections with a blend of literary depth and captivating storytelling.

Recommendations:

• The Colony by Annika Norlin (38:40)

  • A Swedish bestseller being adapted for TV, this novel examines the dynamics of a cult-like group led by an enigmatic woman. The protagonist's journey from burnout to uncovering the truth offers a compelling mix of literary fiction and mystery.

  “It's about cults and I love reading about cults.” (39:06)

• The Antidote by Karen Russell (40:52)

  • Set during the Dust Bowl of the 1930s, this historical fiction novel narrates the lives of five characters through poetic and enchanting prose. Notably, one perspective is from a scarecrow, adding a unique literary twist.

Michelle Martin's Insights: Michelle praises Annika Norlin's intricate portrayal of societal structures within cults and Karen Russell's innovative narrative techniques that explore historical and environmental themes.

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5. Jordan Bojejian

Background: Jordan Bojejian, a content creator specializing in consumer culture and beauty standards, shares her picks from the darker corners of the literary world.

Recommendations:

• Immaculate Conception by Ling Ling Huang (45:55)

  • A forthcoming novel set in an art school environment, exploring themes of AI, technology, and originality. The story features a dual timeline following two women grappling with personal traumas and the commodification of empathy through advanced technology.

  “It explores bodily autonomy and like envy and obsession.” (48:58)

• Old Soul by Susan Barker (50:10)

  • Scheduled for release soon, this literary thriller combines elements of horror and western genres. It follows two strangers who meet in Osaka airport, uncovering a supernatural mystery involving an immortal woman and inexplicable deaths marked by reversed organs.

Jordan Bojejian's Commentary: Jordan highlights the social commentary present in these novels, particularly their engagement with contemporary issues like the influence of technology on art and the allure of the supernatural in unsettling societal contexts.

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Olivia Muenter’s Book Recommendations

Recommendations:

• Isola by Allegra Goodman (55:00)

  • A historical fiction novel about a young woman and her lover stranded on an island, blending themes of resilience and survival. Praised for its beautiful prose, it’s ideal for cozy winter reading.

  “It's the perfect book to read by a roaring fire.” (56:38)

• Heartwood by Amity Gage (55:37)

  • This novel tells the story of a woman hiking the Appalachian Trail who becomes lost. Told through journal excerpts, it combines literary suspense with a poignant exploration of isolation and self-discovery.

Olivia’s Reflections: Olivia expresses enthusiasm for these immersive and emotionally charged narratives, emphasizing their suitability for deep, reflective reading experiences.

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Conclusion

The Bad on Paper 2025 Reading Preview episode offers a rich tapestry of book recommendations from diverse genres, each brought to life through insightful discussions with expert guests. From literary romances that evoke nostalgia to dark thrillers that mirror societal anxieties, this episode serves as a valuable guide for readers eager to explore the literary landscape of 2025.

Listeners are encouraged to engage with the podcast’s vibrant community through their Facebook group and Instagram handles, ensuring they stay updated with the latest book recommendations and literary insights.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Becca Freeman: "I'm feeling refreshed." (02:58)
• Olivia Muenter: "I feel reborn." (01:23)
• Alyssa Morris: "It really reminded me of 'Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow' with this best friends to will they or won't they lovers." (10:39)
• Tao Tai: "The interiority is so rich and expansive. I felt like I was there with the characters." (22:28)
• Josh Laura: "It's being marketed as a sort of literary thriller, but I'm very, very excited." (34:07)
• Michelle Martin: "It's about cults and I love reading about cults." (39:06)
• Jordan Bojejian: "It explores bodily autonomy and like envy and obsession." (48:58)
• Olivia Muenter: "It's the perfect book to read by a roaring fire." (56:38)

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content banter have been excluded from this summary to focus solely on the core discussions and book recommendations.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Badon Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia, Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm so excited because we are doing our 2025 book review preview episode with five guests plus us, who all have book recommendations that are coming out in the first half of this year.

[Olivia Mentor]

I love these episodes. They're like some of my very. My very favorites. I just. I love them.

[Becca Freeman]

This has also been very interesting because we're recording the intro and outro after we've done most of the interviews. And I just put together for substack a list of 52 books that I'm excited about that come out between now and June and every conversation we've had. I have not heard of any of the books people are bringing. Like, people are bringing us such interesting things that weren't on my radar. So we have some translated literature. We have an audible original. We have a Romantasy. I'm very excited for people to listen to this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Get your TBR list ready. Get your pens ready.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. But before we get into these mini interviews, Olivia, tell me about your high.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that I feel reborn. I have a new laptop for the first time since the great water spill incident of 2023. I have been using Jake's extra laptop since then. So basically he has a work laptop and a personal one, and I kind of took the personal one, but then he would inevitably need to do non work stuff, and so we would kind of have to share it. And it was just. It was very generous of him to share with me until I could afford to buy a new one. But I have a brand new one. It's very shiny. It's like that new color. It's like that light gold. I don't even know what it's called exactly.

[Becca Freeman]

Ooh. I didn't even know there was a new color.

[Olivia Mentor]

But my desktop is usually absolute chaos. But it's completely clean. I have a fresh background. It's a Mary Oliver poem. I'm organizing all my little bookmark tab things. I just. Oh, it feels good. There's nothing like the feeling of typing on a fresh laptop. Like, it's just very satisfying.

[Becca Freeman]

This has been a while. Like, you have written multiple full book drafts.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's been a very long time on.

[Becca Freeman]

Not your own laptop.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. It just goes to show you that, like, you'll figure it out. Like, in my mind, I feel like I need the ideal circumstances to write. Like, I need the perfect office. I need the perfect chair. I need the perfect laptop. I need all of this to Be correct. But at the end of the day, I made it work, so. So I'm ready to move on, though, with my new fresh laptop.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I'm excited. New year, new you, technologically speaking, it's great.

[Olivia Mentor]

But tell me your high.

[Becca Freeman]

My high is that I'm feeling refreshed. So I was saying last week that I was kind of taking this gentle start to the year because I wasn't feeling refreshed. And so I've taken the past two weeks and I've been doing newsletter stuff, I've been doing podcast stuff, and honestly, it's been surprising to me how much time that has taken up. If you had asked me, I would have said that was like less than 20 hours a week, and it hasn't been. But I've just been having a really gentle start to the year. And I'm happy to report that I do feel refreshed. And so I'm getting feedback on my latest novel draft. I'm supposed to be getting it when this comes out this week. And so, yeah, I feel really restored going into that.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's so good that you're, like, just going in with a clear head, like, refreshed, relaxed, ready for whatever's next. Yeah, I feel like that's very important.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

What about your low?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, my low is not refreshing or relaxing, but the sequel is not quite as bad as the original. So longtime listeners will remember that in 2022, they briefly put my apartment building on the market to sell the whole building. And I was super freaked out because I didn't know what was going to happen and I didn't have a lease, which on the one hand was good because that meant my rent wasn't increasing. But on the other hand, I didn't really have any protection outside of, I think, like, mandated by the state, they need to give you 30 or 60 days notice. So I was really freaked at the time. It was also over the summer when I was about to go on submission with the Christmas Orphans Club. So I just felt like there was so much change going on. So I found out yesterday that I think our building is back on the market.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, no, that's not good.

[Becca Freeman]

I know it's not good, but I did re sign a lease in the fall, so I have a lease through the end of October. So no matter what happens, like, I definitely have some time to figure things out. And so that just makes me feel more at peace with it. And also because this already happened in 2022, I feel like I've been able to wrap my Mind around it a little more. So the best case scenario is that they sell the building and the new owner wants to keep the tenants in place at the same rent and I just get to stay. But we will see.

[Olivia Mentor]

But yeah, or maybe it'll just not happen like last time.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah. There's some new. There's some new circumstances at play. I don't know. We'll see.

[Olivia Mentor]

All right, well, I'm glad that it's not immediate. You have time, it's not like happening tomorrow, and you can just kind of put it at least to the far back of your mind for a little bit.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I definitely feel chiller about it, but it just, it makes me sad. I looked really briefly on Street Easy yesterday just to kind of get a sense of what the market was like in my neighborhood. And just this is the best apartment I've ever lived in and despite all of its many flaws and I just won't be able to find. It's like such a gem of a New York apartment. I just like, won't be able to find anything with this much space again.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that's stressful.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, hopefully, I don't know, some magic will happen.

[Becca Freeman]

I hope so. I hope so.

[Olivia Mentor]

Leave room for magic. I think that's a quote. Something. Something like that.

[Becca Freeman]

Sounds like a self help book, honestly.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, whatever works.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? What's your low?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't really have a low. I've had a really, really nice week, so I'm feeling good. Just been going on walks, going on my little spin bike, making soup. I'm thriving. It's nice.

[Becca Freeman]

Amazing. Well, let's take a quick ad break and then let's get into these books.

[Olivia Mentor]

This show is sponsored by Cozy Earth. One of the things that I am really prioritizing in 2025 is sleep. I want to be in bed early reading my book with no phone in sight basically every single night. If I can make that happen, it's what makes me feel my very best. And I think that everyone can probably stand to improve their sleep habits. And one of the best ways to do that is making your bedroom really feel like a total sanctuary.

[Becca Freeman]

So I mostly use my Cozy Earth cuddle blanket on the couch, but I can only imagine how comforting it would be to crawl under it on a really cold night. Cozy Earth has tons of products that can improve your bedroom and your sleep. Take their best selling bamboo sheet set, for example, which is made of 100% premium viscose from bamboo. Their breathable sheets are uniquely soft and only get softer with every wash. You.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

So Becca, tell me what books you are excited about in 2025.

[Becca Freeman]

Honestly, this is incredibly hard to narrow down. I feel like I could be on a CNN style always on cable news program talking about my favorite books of 2025 because there are so many things I'm looking forward to. Okay, but I narrowed it down the first one I've read already and I highly recommend and this is Deep Cuts by Holly Brickley, which comes out on February 25th. And this is a literary romance which I've been really jiving with lately. And it's about two college students at Berkeley who bond over their shared love of music. And one of them is actually a musician, and one of them doesn't actually have any musical talent of her own. She's just kind of like a a critic, a fan. But she has an incredible ear for music. And the two of them get into an untraditional relationship as creator and critic that kind of like dominates their dynamic. And even though there's some feelings for each other, there's no room for them to have romantic feelings. And so the book is told over the course of probably like seven years. And it kind of goes from college through she goes to grad school and then after maybe even 10 years. So it takes place over quite a lot of time as these people come in and out of each other's lives. And it really reminded me of tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow with this best friends to will they or Won't they lovers? This one definitely does have more of a romantic plot line than tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. But like we're bonded by some bigger cause. And the whole book is great, but what really did it for me is that it is such a nostalgia bomb. So it starts in the year 2000 and so it's very Much about like the early aughts indie music scene. And I think I'm probably like three or four years younger than the characters, so it wasn't the exact bands that I was listening to. But oh my gosh, this just brought back so many memories of when I was in college and like directly after. And it was so nostalgic for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm really looking forward to reading this one. I've heard you say such lovely things about it and it just. I love a literary romance and they're hard to find kind of. But as you said, I think they're happening more and more. Anyway, I'm really looking forward to reading this.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I think what I'm looking for right now in my reading life is just novelty. And this felt really unique to me. Like it was a relationship dynamic I hadn't seen before. It was a setting that I haven't seen much of. And yeah, it just, it felt wholly different than a lot of what I've been reading, which I'm really seeking out right now.

[Olivia Mentor]

Different is very good, I think, usually.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

What's your next pick?

[Becca Freeman]

So my second pick is something that I haven't read yet, but I'm very excited to read and that is the Art of Vanishing by Morgan Pager, who you might also know as NYC book girl friend of the podcast. And this comes out on July 1st. And again, talk about a novel premise. It's dual POV and it is about a woman who is a night janitor at a museum and she goes through the galleries at night, mopping, sweeping, I don't know what specific tasks. And as she's going through this, she's really captivated by a Matisse painting. And the second point of view is a man inside the painting. And so she realizes that she has the ability to step inside the painting. And so it's a love story between this man from a Matisse painting and the present day janitor at a museum. And this premise just sounds so, so wonderful and so magical. Like I. It's giving me the vibe of the Night Circus, which is the biggest compliment I have to give. But that like magical love story, that's a little doomed.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also really want to read this and it really makes me feel nostalgic. Have you ever heard of the kids show out of the Box?

[Becca Freeman]

No.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, well, it was basically like a clubhouse made of boxes, but then you walk inside the boxes and it's like this huge room and it always blew my mind. I promise I'm getting to the connection here. And it had this great song with bongos and it was like out of the box. Out of the box. Anyway, really catchy. Okay, so I think there was a segment on this show that was this, like, that was the woman the co host would, like, step into paintings. I could have conjured this. And this is not actually true. And it might have been a dream, but something about it makes me feel very nostalgic in a very fun way. Like, it feels so, like, not childlike, but like imaginative, you know, like anything is possible. And I love that. Yes, I'm really looking forward to this too.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm incredibly excited for that one. But let's hear some of our contributors picks. So for our first guest, we have Alyssa Morris, who writes the fantastic newsletter Romancing the Phone, where she covers Booktok trends. Currently she's a freelance literary scout and previously she worked in book marketing at Amazon, where she was also the Kindle Romance editor. Welcome, Alyssa.

[Olivia Mentor]

Welcome. Hi.

[Alyssa Morris]

Thanks for having me.

[Becca Freeman]

Becca and Olivia, I talked about this in the podcast. I loved the interview that you did with Anne Helen Peterson about Booktok on her podcast. I mean, this is coming out next week, so Booktok may or may not exist by the time this comes out.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, yeah. Wow. Yes. So much is happening all at once right now.

[Alyssa Morris]

I know. I'm sure. I mean, my newsletter this week is going to be about where you might be able to find out about books if Booktok goes away, because there are still places people are talking about books, but the landscape will be radically different if Booktok is gone all of a sudden.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. I'm curious to see. I was reading this morning that it sounds like even if it does get banned, it won't imminently boot people off who already have the app downloaded. It'll just become less compatible with future phones. So there might still be a long tail on Booktok existing, hopefully. But I knew I wanted to bring you on because I feel like you have a pulse on what the youths, what the TikTok people, what the what's new and next. And so what have you brought for us to recommend today?

[Alyssa Morris]

Okay, so I feel like 2025 is going to be an amazing book year for my particular interests and probably also the particular interests of Booktok, which are like romance, romantasy, fan fiction, historical fiction. So it was really hard for me to choose here, but I went with two authors whose previous books I've really loved, but they're branching out a little bit from their usual with their next release.

[Becca Freeman]

Ooh, tell us.

[Alyssa Morris]

So the first one is Rachel Gillig. Who wrote a duology that's Romantasy that's been huge on booktok this year. The first book is called One Dark Window and the second book is called Two Twisted Crowns. It's a young adult romantasy series with like a very original magic system. But she is releasing her first adult romantasy novel on May 20, and it's called the Night and the Moth. This is my most anticipated romantasy of the year. She's a beautiful writer and I'm really excited to see where she goes with this sort of branching out into adult. And in this book, the female main character is a prophetess, and the male main character is described as rude, heretical, and devilishly handsome. And the tagline is only a heretic can defeat a God. That, to me, is perfect. I'm sold.

[Becca Freeman]

So am I getting a flavor of that? This is maybe like historical esque Romantasy.

[Alyssa Morris]

Her books are definitely kind of that classic historical, Middle Ages, medieval feeling fantasy. And in One Dark Window and Two Twisted Crowns, the magic is actually inside of a series of tarot cards. So she's really doing very different things with how magic works in her world. And I think that's pretty great.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, this wasn't even on my radar, so I'm very excited. I'm also excited to potentially check out the previous series because I feel like I cannot let myself get sucked into something that has nine books. Like, I've been down that road. I don't have time for that right now. So a duology speaks to me.

[Alyssa Morris]

It's incredibly satisfying. They're both out. It wraps up in two books. Highly recommend. They're very interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, thrilled to have this on my radar. What is the second one that you brought for us?

[Alyssa Morris]

Okay, so one of my favorite rom com writers of all time is Lucy Parker, who writes sort of. She's from New Zealand, but she writes these theater inflected West End set London romances about actresses and directors or bakers and royalty. Very interesting. And she actually has an audible original coming out on February 4th called Misdirected. And I'm not usually an audiobook person. I mostly only do like author read memoirs, so be ready when the luck happens. Things like that I love, but I'm really excited to try this one out. And the voices, one of them is Nicola Coughlan from Bridgerton, so I think that's amazing casting.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's amazing. Yes, that sounds great.

[Alyssa Morris]

And the plot is an actress on a period drama is dismayed when her character's arc begins to involve a romance with her real life nemesis. So it does sound like it's sort of like an actress in Bridgerton finds out that her character is going to fall in love with some guy played by her real life nemesis. And Lucy Parker is incredible at grumpy sunshine. That is her best. She really thrives there. So I think this sounds like it will be a sort of enemies to lovers, grumpy sunshine, behind the scenes romance. And I'm really looking forward to that.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I'm so excited. And do you happen to know is this like the previous Audible originals that they've done like the little collections? Is this like full length or is this like novella length? It's full length.

[Alyssa Morris]

I looked today and it's 10 hours long, so I. Oh, okay, wait.

[Becca Freeman]

Even better. I read a few of the Christmas ones and I enjoyed them, but there's just only so much you can cram into, you know, an hour.

[Alyssa Morris]

I know. I really liked the Ali Hazelwood.

[Becca Freeman]

Me too. That was my favorite.

[Alyssa Morris]

So short. And I was sad that we didn't get more of those characters.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree. But it was kind of an interesting thing that set my writer brain on fire to be like, wow, I really do feel like you within the constraints of like however much space you had, you really did develop the characters. But I'm very excited to hear that this one is full length that we get the full Nicola Coughlan experience.

[Olivia Mentor]

Very meta. I enjoy that detail. Always that there's the layers there with the Bridgerton of it all.

[Becca Freeman]

Love. So, Alyssa, if people want more of your book recs more of your intel, can you tell them where they can find you on the Internet?

[Alyssa Morris]

Yeah, you can find me at romancingthephone.substack.com I put out a free newsletter every Friday and then I also have paid newsletters one or two Sundays a month. And I would love to have you there.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, we are so excited to have Tao Tai here with us today. Tao is the author of Banyan Moon, which is the July 2023 read with Jenna title, Barnes and Noble Discover Pick and Book of the Month selection. Also one of my favorite books in 2023. She also writes romance under the pen name Nora Wynn and she lives in central Ohio with her husband and daughter. Welcome.

[Tao Tai]

Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here with you both. Talking books.

[Becca Freeman]

We're equally excited. And I was saying before we started recording that it feels very full circle because in 2023 when we did one of these episodes, Leslie Stevens came on and she recommended your book.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Tao Tai]

And now Leslie's book is out, too. And both your books are out. It is full circle for us all.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's been a busy couple years. Well, tell us the first book you have for us today.

[Tao Tai]

Okay. So I'm excited about both of them. One of them I read and I loved, and the other one I haven't read yet, but I know I'm going to love. And what's funny is when I was deciding on these, I didn't realize it, but they actually have a similar setting. They're both coastal books, which is kind of cool. So the first book is Lydia Hilja's Slanting towards the Sea, which comes out on July 8th. And this is a debut novel that I read. I blurbed it. I absolutely adored it. And it came at the right time, too, because I had been really longing for a meaty love story. You know, one of those love stories that kind of wrecks you, takes you to all the emotional places. And I was kind of having a hard time finding that. And then I opened this book, and almost immediately I realized this is exactly what I was looking for. It's this intensely romantic love story, and it's filled with all this yearning. At the center, there's this fraught love triangle as three friends are trying to figure out how to untangle themselves from one another. And as I mentioned before, it's set on the Croatia coastline, which Lydia describes with so much lushness, I could really feel the heat and the sea spray. So it just transported me in all the best ways. And the other thing about this book, which I find so remarkable is that the interiority is so rich and expansive. I felt like I was there with the characters. And even after I shut the book, I remember thinking that they were still with me. I still heard their voices in my head, which I think is how you know you have a really compelling story. And I also just love Lydia's story. So she was a lawyer working in Croatia, and she didn't start writing in English until 2019.

[Jordan Bojejian]

Wow.

[Tao Tai]

I know, I know. Isn't that amazing? She had a book translated for her, a manuscript translated for her, but then she realized that it would just be better if she did it herself. So she wrote in English and she read in English. And then this book is just the result of so many years of hard work and tenacity and talent. So I also just love that origin story, too.

[Becca Freeman]

So Is this her U.S. debut, or did she publish books in Croatia before this?

[Tao Tai]

No, this is her international everywhere debut.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay. Wow.

[Tao Tai]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Is this, like, more Literary. I'm guessing from the title. It's like literary romance. Is that how you would describe it?

[Tao Tai]

Absolutely.

[Becca Freeman]

It's.

[Tao Tai]

The language is so lush and the descriptions and the characterizations are wonderful. It's definitely a novel that will break your heart, but there's a lot of hope there, too.

[Becca Freeman]

This sounds right up my alley. I hadn't heard of this, but I'm very excited for it. I feel like 2025 might be my year of literary romance. Like, I think I've OD'd a little bit on tropey romances and I can predict them too much and I get a little frustrated. And so I'm really delighting in literary romances. And I also feel like there's more of them than there have been in past years.

[Tao Tai]

I think that's right.

[Olivia Mentor]

I need something to fill the talking at Night shaped hole in my chest. I don't know if you've read Talking at Night by Claire Daverly.

[Tao Tai]

I did, Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, it's so. Oh, so beautiful.

[Tao Tai]

That was heartbreaking, too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Well, what is your next pick that you have brought to the pod today?

[Tao Tai]

So my next one is Charlotte McConaughey's Wild Dark Shore. So she has two other novels, migrations and When We Were Wolves, and she is probably one of my top five writers of our generation. She is just incredible. I'm usually a pretty fast reader, but with her books, I try to make myself prolong them. I really have to put them down and say, well, you can read more tomorrow and just try to stretch them out for as long as I can, because I just want to immerse myself in her language and her brilliance. And she has this way of writing about the dying world that is so hauntingly melancholy. But there's also this fierce flicker of hope, too. So you never walk away feeling depressed. You just feel really attuned to the world around you in this really remarkable way and connected to the universe. But her latest Wild Dark short comes out on March 4, and it has the most riveting premise. So it's about a man named Dominic, and he lives on a remote island with his children not too far from Antarctica. But then one day, during this enormous storm, a mysterious woman named Rowan washes up on the shore. So Dominic and his children end up nursing this woman Rowan back to health. But in the meantime, they're starting to realize that there's a lot more to her story than she's letting on to them. But as all that's happening, Rowan is also starting to explore the island and get to know this family and she finds a freshly dug grave, which makes her wonder how much she can trust Dominic too. So I just think that sounds like such a compelling premise and it sounds mysterious and as the title suggests, a little dark, but also just incredibly beautiful, as I know all her books would be. So that one went right on my pre order list. I'm so excited.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm very excited about this one too, because it has a lot of things that I am just like a mystery, like sort of a weird, remote island. I'm always on board for that. It sounds great. I'm very excited.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm gonna need one or both of you to report back to tell me if this is too scary for me. It sounds intriguing, but I'm a little worried. For me, as a certified scaredy cat, I understand.

[Tao Tai]

I've read her other books, and although they're sort of thrilling and there's some dark content matter, it doesn't ever feel like jump scary. So if that's something you're afraid of, I don't think you'll have to deal with it.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's important. It's important to know I'll use one.

[Becca Freeman]

Of these my kings to wonder.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, yeah.

[Tao Tai]

I just finished Migrations over the winter break and it was kind of perfect too, because it was set on the ocean, of course, and it was cold, and they're chasing the last of these birds to Antarctica. So it was also really just very transportive. So these books are just such moody books. And I don't know about you both, but I'm really craving them. And I'm craving sinking into something that really just wraps around me. That kind of story.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Immersive. Always. For sure. And especially in the winter.

[Tao Tai]

Yes, exactly.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, thank you. These both sound amazing. Can you tell the people where to find you if you have anything exciting upcoming where they can follow you, all of that good stuff?

[Tao Tai]

Sure. So I'm on Instagram. Tao writes, but I'm not on there very much.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Tao Tai]

And then I have a new novel coming out in early 2026 that I'm very excited about. It's one that I've really dove into and I hope that readers will like it. So it is also a bit of a literary mystery, and it's about two sisters that are trying to unravel a family secret that centers around a very cryptic surrealist painting. And there's a lot about art and sisterhood, a lot about enmeshment and family secrets. So it takes a lot of the themes from Banyan Moon, but just kind of explores them in this new domain that I'm just really fascinated by. So, yeah, that'll come out in early 2026.

[Becca Freeman]

Do we have a public title for it yet or. You can't say we don't yet.

[Tao Tai]

We're still circling around 1. Are you both good at titles or do you take a long time to find the titles for your books?

[Becca Freeman]

I've known the title of both of my books from day one, really, and so I haven't done much exploration. Like, it's just like, I felt very certain about it, but I don't think I'm excellent at brainstorming them because there was a minute that the Christmas Orphans Club was maybe gonna have a different name, and all of the ideas that I came up with were just utter garbage.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, no, it's a great title.

[Tao Tai]

The first title that comes to you is usually the best, I feel.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it's tricky, though, especially when there's marketing and there's people and everyone has a different opinion and you want it to hit just the right node and it's hard.

[Tao Tai]

It's true.

[Olivia Mentor]

But now I'm very excited to hear what the title ends up being, so.

[Tao Tai]

I'll be excited to tell you when I finally can.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I'm excited to read that, and thanks for coming on the pod.

[Tao Tai]

Yeah, thank you both. This was really fun.

[Olivia Mentor]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel really good going into 2025, more ready than ever to make space for the things that truly make me feel my best. And one of those things is therapy. I'm a couple weeks into going back to weekly sessions instead of every other week like I did last year, and I can already feel what a difference it's making for my mental health.

[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

Write your story with better help. Visit betterhelp.combadonpaper today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.combadonpaper for our next guest, we have Josh Laura, who is a researcher and writer trained in the art of spotting patterns, identifying cultural shifts, and applying theoretical frameworks to popular media and larger societal trends. He puts these skills to work discussing books, culture, and sociology on his TikTok and substack under the username tellthebees. Welcome, Josh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Welcome.

[Josh Laura]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm so excited you're here. We have such a funny meeting story because we met at a party and you told me that you have a book talk. And it was at the beginning of the year when I was in such a big fight with myself over my TikTok habits, and I just deleted TikTok. And I was like, well, can't follow you. Guess this is the end. Then you started a substack and you had this essay go incredibly viral, or at least viral in my world earlier this year called the Mainstreaming of Loserdom. And I was like, I know who that is. I remember him. But, yeah, I'm so excited to be reconnected with you.

[Josh Laura]

Thank you so much. Yeah, it was a very fun party. I remember chatting with a bunch of people, and it's interesting because some of these parties are very, you know, Instagram focused or author focused. And then the TikTok people usually end up being kind of the ugly stepchildren where you're standing in a corner talking about an app that most people don't use. So it was exciting for you to reach out and, like, reconnect. This was awesome.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I'm so excited to hear what you brought for us. Tell us about your first book, of course.

[Josh Laura]

So I think on substack, I've been talking a lot about how, you know, not to. I'm not going to talk about politics or anything, but as a TikTok person, I am seeing this kind of rise of a cultural dark age where I think a lot of the fiction for 2025 is sort of leaning in this darker direction. And I know that a lot of your fans are romance fans, and I am, like, dabbling in that world. But I'm also. I didn't bring any romance. I brought two sort of darker books. So the first one is called Nothing Serious by Emily J. Smith, and I'm really excited for it. The author herself actually reached out to me. It's coming out right around Valentine's Day. It is about a woman who is 35. She's on the dating apps. And not to like, plug myself again, but I talk a lot about the dating apps on Tik tok I am very, very, very anti. I did a lot of my graduate research on cohabitation rates and marriage rates and finances and, like, the way that Americans meet and marry and fall in love. And with the romance angle, I originally wanted to study how people fall in love and what makes them get married. And over my two years of grad school, I quickly realized that I was actually writing about money and talking about money. Right. Like, capitalism is the great. The thing that hangs over a lot. And I'm sure you guys know, like, if you're married or not, like, I think the wedding industrial complex, et cetera, et cetera. But people have met for years before the dating apps. And so this woman is 35. She's on the dating apps. She meets this guy at a great date, and then he disappears, and the book quickly spirals from there. It's being marketed as a sort of literary thriller, but I'm very, very excited. Emily J. Smith is a journalist, and I've checked out a couple of her pieces. I think she has very good insight on the dating apps and loneliness and the sort of loneliness crisis that we are entering or have been in for a couple of years. So I'm very, very excited for this one.

[Becca Freeman]

That sounds really interesting. I'm usually a scaredy cat, so I'm not usually a thriller person, but I feel like the dating app aspect of it, even though I tend not to read thrillers, anything that I can self insert into because then I get too scared. But I'm really curious to see a dating app take on a thriller.

[Josh Laura]

Yeah. And I think it's less, you know, I don't want to say it's, like, less thrillery, because I know a lot of these genre books have very specific conventions. So it's like if you try to play in the sandbox, but, like, say, oh, but I'm not actually a thriller, people get really mad. So I won't say it's not a thriller. It's definitely a thriller. But I do think that she was writing sort of more about the cultural moment that we're in with regards to, like, dating and loneliness.

[Olivia Mentor]

And that sounds like my perfect book, to be honest. So I'm really gonna make sure this is at the top of my list.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I feel like I'm the romance head here. And then Olivia is, like, the darker, the better.

[Josh Laura]

Oh, I love that. I vibe with that. I read a lot of divorce books, so I'm very much in that world.

[Becca Freeman]

So what's the second thing you brought for us today?

[Josh Laura]

So the second Book I brought is Universality by Natasha Brown. She had a sort of TikTok hit with her first book assembly, which was a very, very short book, like I think 112 pages about a young black woman who's marrying into this very like British gentry family with like a castle, you know, that whole thing. But she's keeping a very, very dark secret from him. And the book sort of takes you on the journey as she's traveling from London to this country house about how whether to tell him or not her secret. It's incredible. It's beautiful writing. So she's back with another very short book. This is about a young black journalist who is investigating a murder. And the only clue that she has is that a gold bar was left next to the body. And it's about class and money. And I think class is a very, very big theme in English fiction. They, you know, their class system is very, very ossified. It's not like here. So it's interesting. But yeah, I'm intrigued by this idea of like anarchy and journalism and obviously with everything going on in our country right now, again, cultural dark age, cultural moment. But I'm intrigued. I think it's going to be really cool and really well done.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you know when this one comes out?

[Josh Laura]

It comes out March 4, 2025. So soon.

[Becca Freeman]

Soon.

[Olivia Mentor]

Is the COVID just a gold bar? Like it looks kind of like a book for a second. But I'm interested in it because of the COVID It's like very striking.

[Josh Laura]

Yeah, it's a very, very sexy cover. I think her first one was just like the words, like the word assembly. And no one knew what it was, but it was very, very well done. I think she's a genius.

[Becca Freeman]

I'll have to loop back to that one. I hadn't heard of this author or assembly, so I'm very intrigued by the premise of something that's like 112 pages and fitting a whole story into almost like a novella like package. So I'm very curious about that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Both of these sound like I'm going to love them. Like, I love a dark book. Suspense with deeper themes. That's all I want in this life. So I'm so glad that you've put them on my radar.

[Josh Laura]

Thank you so much. I'm so excited. You know, that's why I started my book account and that's basically what I look for. Just giving people book recommendations on things that they will vibe with.

[Becca Freeman]

So speaking of your book recommendations, where can people find you if they would like more of them?

[Josh Laura]

Absolutely. So. Well, as of today, not on TikTok anymore, but we never know. So TikTok Elthabees with three E's. So B E E E S substack ellingthebees and Instagram tellthe bees and YouTube tellthe bees. So same username everywhere.

[Becca Freeman]

Amazing. For our next guest, we have Michelle Martin, who writes the bookish newsletter Literary Leanings and also covers books on her bookstagram. Michelle reads books and in addition, she's a professional wedding photographer and she lives in coastal Maine. Welcome, Michelle.

[Michelle Martin]

Thank you guys for having me.

[Olivia Mentor]

I love all of your book content so much. For those listening, Michelle has this one post that it's just like, join me on a bookish Saturday or Sunday or weekend or something. And it's like my dream substack post. It was delightful. Anyway, I feel like listeners would love that, but I'm excited to hear the books you brought for us too.

[Michelle Martin]

Oh, thanks, Olivia.

[Becca Freeman]

I also feel like this is really interesting because I feel like you are almost the bridge between Olivia and I's reading Taste like you are the center of the Venn diagram. I feel like almost. So I'm very excited to hear what you brought for us today.

[Olivia Mentor]

Interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

Tell us your first book.

[Michelle Martin]

Okay. Well, I hope they pique your interest. The first one I'm bringing is called the Colony by Annika Norlin and she's a Swedish author. So she is a musician and an author out of Sweden. And this book came out, I think it was last year in Sweden and was a mega bestseller and it's coming out this year. It's being translated into all these different languages and coming out in the US and it's already underway for a TV adaptation.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow.

[Michelle Martin]

And I'm really excited about it because it is about cults and I love reading about cults. I don't know how you guys feel, but I often feel like I could easily be sucked into joining a cult. So reading about them is very fascinating. But in this book, the main character, she's sort of like burnt out from city life and she decides to get away to the countryside for a few days and packs up all her camping stuff and goes camping. And then once she's there, she encounters a group of people living by the river and she's observing them. She's sort of starting to interact with them. And then she comes to realize that they're. I don't think she calls it a cult, but they're called the Colony. So they're very much like a cultish group. They're led by this woman who's very intriguing and everyone has a very specific role in the colony. So the main character starts spending time with them. She's finding it very idyllic. But then, as usually happens, something starts to tickle her spidey senses, and she's like, something is kind of weird here. So the book gets into her uncovering the truth of this society. But it sounds like the perfect blend of what you guys were saying, like literary with a little bit of mystery thriller to it. So I'm really excited for this one.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm in.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, the minute you said cult, I feel like Olivia was like, I.

[Olivia Mentor]

Was like a cult down by the river. I'm joining. I'm definitely reading. Sounds great.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. This is fascinating. Especially that it was such a sensation in Sweden. I've never heard of it. I'm very excited.

[Michelle Martin]

Yeah. And I think when I read about it, it was comped to the Girls by Emma Cline and the Water cure by Sophie McIntosh. I don't know if you guys read either of those, but those were two books that were right up my alley, so it was an immediate yes for me.

[Becca Freeman]

Ooh, did you tell us when does this come out?

[Michelle Martin]

It comes out March 25th.

[Becca Freeman]

Amazing. Well, tough act to follow. What is your second book that you brought for us?

[Michelle Martin]

Okay, my second book is one by a pretty well known author, Karen Russell. So it's called the Antidote by Karen Russell. It comes out March 11th. Have either of you read any of Karen Russell's books?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I don't think so.

[Becca Freeman]

You're like, she's pretty well known and I'm not familiar with the name, I don't think.

[Michelle Martin]

Mm. I feel like that's surprising because her biggest novel is called Swamplandia and it's set in Florida. And I feel like you both have, like, Florida ties, right?

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, yeah. I grew up in Florida, so I would like to read that very much.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, you know what? Now that I'm looking at the COVID of the Antidote, I recognize having seen it. And I have heard of Swamplandia. So it's just a disconnect of the name, the author, and the name, the.

[Michelle Martin]

Book cover, the visuals.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Michelle Martin]

So this one comes out in March, and it is surprisingly about the Dust Bowl. So that didn't immediately sell me when I heard about it because it is marketed as a Dust bowl epic, which I was like, eh. But I did get an advanced copy and I started flipping through it and I was immediately hooked. So it takes place during the Dust bowl in the 1930s America and it's told from the perspective of five different characters. But one of the things I really love about Karen Russell is that she has this really strange, beautiful, enchanting way of writing. So, you know, it's going to be this, like, historical fiction story, but, like, told in this really, like, beautifully strange way. And the thing about the five characters that really sold me was one of them is a scarecrow. So part of the story is told from the perspective of a scarecrow.

[Olivia Mentor]

I like a non human narrator so much.

[Michelle Martin]

Yeah. I think it follows through five years of the dust bowl, these five characters living in this area. And I sadly don't know that much about the dust bowl. So I did a quick Wikipedia search after I started flipping through this book, and it's a fascinating historical moment. And her desire with this book was just for us to sort of think about historical moments and the impact that they've had now, especially as we deal with climate change. So I think it'll be a really cool, creative take on that Clifi storytelling aspect.

[Becca Freeman]

So I was trying to figure out as you were talking, I don't know if either of you know, this is the Heaven and Earth grocery store. Also a Dust bowl book. Are Dust bowl books a trend?

[Olivia Mentor]

I only read 75% of that book, but I did read, I think, is it Kirsten or Kristin? Hannah. Kristin. Hannah.

[Becca Freeman]

Kristin. Hannah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Kristin. Hannah has a book.

[Becca Freeman]

It's Kristin in the end.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that's. I get so confused with that. But I believe she has, like, one of her books. They're always set in, like, a very specific historical period, and one of them is the Dust Bowl. And I've read it, and I had no idea how horrifying this was like and how much it affected. I just pictured literally, like a tumbleweed. Someone said the dust Bowl. I was like, there was dust. That's all I knew. But that book really opened my eyes and I would read more about it for sure. So this sounds very interesting. Yeah.

[Michelle Martin]

Olivia. I had a similar experience after reading a few pages of this book and looking up photos of the Dust bowl and just seeing, wow, it was like a climate disaster. One of the most interesting facts I learned was that one of the years it was happening, New England got red snow because the dust has traveled that far, and it snowed like red dust in the winter in New England. So it's a wild piece of history that I don't know that much about.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, can you imagine that happening pre Internet, pre tv, where you can't look anything up and it's Just raining red snow and you're like, God is angry.

[Olivia Mentor]

The world is ending.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, this is a terrible omen. Wow. Okay. These both sound fascinating. And so if people are looking for more of your book recs, where is the best place that people can keep up with them?

[Michelle Martin]

I would say Substack. I write the Substack Literary leanings, and the URL there is michellereadsbooks.substack.com I publish a couple times a week and share lots of book recommendations over there. I'm sometimes active on my Instagram, which is ichellereadsbooks, but Substack is the place to be.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you for giving us these amazing book recs.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you so much.

[Michelle Martin]

Thank you, guys.

[Olivia Mentor]

We are so excited to have Jordan Bojejian. Jordan works in branded content at a popular women's media company, and she's also the voice behind her substack, which I love. It's called the Composite, and it helps readers digest the latest in consumer culture trends and beauty standards. Like I said, I'm a huge fan and I also am obsessed with your book content, and that's why we brought you here today. So welcome to the podcast, Jordan.

[Jordan Bojejian]

Thank you so much for having me. I am a major fan of both of you guys and a really longtime listener. So it's like a dream come true to be here. I'm very excited.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, thanks.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, Jordan, we would love to hear what is the first book that you brought for us.

[Jordan Bojejian]

So I knew immediately that I wanted to talk about this book. I'm about 25% of the way through it right now and loving it. And it's Immaculate Conception by Ling Ling Huang. I read her debut novel, Natural Beauty last year, which was so great. So up my alley, kind of like anti girl boss, wellness industry. Like, something sinister is happening. Goopy black mirror vibes. And so that one follows a young woman who moves to New York City, and she's in these kind of, like, desperate circumstances, and she starts working for this, like, wellness beauty startup. And everything they sell, of course, is sort of in pursuit of, like, assimilation and adhering to the beauty standard. And the longer she works there and becomes more homogenous with her peers, she kind of realizes that the true cost of that is really dark and not worth it. So this is a really cool social commentary. And so I was really excited to read her new one. And in Immaculate Conception, you follow a young woman this time at art school. And I know people love to read books about art. It's not usually my jam, but I'm Actually really loving it. I feel like if you read Sirens and Muses, you might like this. If you're also into a darker storyline, she does use some like, body horror and light sci fi elements, so it's something you do have to be into. But so it's a main character going to art school. She lives in this society that has a really stark class hierarchy. And not only that, but they're sort of like physically separated from each other into the haves and the have nots. And she gets this opportunity to go to this art school on scholarship. And when she gets there, she realizes that maybe she doesn't really have anything interesting or original to say through her art. And she's sort of floundering. And then she meets this fellow student who is having the opposite experience. She's just effortlessly talented and prodigiously successful, but also has this really dark past and she's dealing with grief and trauma. So the book is dual timeline and you see them at art school getting to know each other, becoming friends, and then also into their adult lives in the art world. And something that I'm finding really interesting about this is it really explores like the intersection of AI and technology with art and how those things, like, compete with each other and the concept of originality, like, can anything truly be original in this day and age? But then there's this also sort of like big tech corporation aspect where this company is sort of commodifying empathy and they create this technology where you can like be inside somebody else's brain and understand like their emotions and their feelings. So it also explores like bodily autonomy and like envy and obsession. So it's very up my alley. I love like a sci fi body horror, things like that that have social commentary. And I think she just does a really great job of using these very unrealistic literary elements to talk about very real issues of these, like, industries that are impacting us a lot on the day to day. So yeah, I'm loving it so far. Very interested to see where it goes.

[Becca Freeman]

And when does this one come out?

[Jordan Bojejian]

It comes out in May of this year.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, great. And just to be clear, it's not interconnected to her first book. It's like totally separate.

[Jordan Bojejian]

Totally separate. There's definitely, I would say, and from what I've seen from other people, this one people are responding to this one better than they did from the first. And people really liked that one too. But it seems that she, I don't know, you know, grew and did some interesting things with this one. So people are loving it. I'm loving it a lot.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't love body horror for sure, but I do love anything that's set at an art school. And some of the elements you were talking about sound really appealing. So I'm gonna wait for your review. I'm gonna see if Olivia checks this out. Like, I need a scaredy cat sensitivity reader, but I'm interested.

[Olivia Mentor]

I wanna read both of her books. Cause I love anything that has a black mirror sort of flair to it. It's just. It scratches a very particular itch for me for some reason. So. Those sound great.

[Jordan Bojejian]

They're so good. I would definitely say Olivia and I have much more similar taste in books than you and I. Becca. Her first one, Natural Beauty, definitely went a little off the rails towards the end on, like, the horror aspect. But this one so far seems more tame. But I'll. I'll let you know.

[Becca Freeman]

Please.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, what did you bring for us for your second pick?

[Jordan Bojejian]

So, for my second one, I ended up picking something a little more similar to my first one that I wanted. I was, like, waffling between some different options. One of them is like, Universality by Natasha Brown, which sounds really interesting and has a beautiful cover, or Good Dirt by Charmaine Wilkerson. But I feel like we all know and love her because of Black Cake. And I wanted to pick something a little more obscure that I hadn't heard of. And when I was looking through the new releases, I found this book called Old Soul by Susan Barker. This one's actually out next week, so if you are interested in reading it, you don't have to wait very long. I'm really excited to get my hands on it. I have not started it, but it is described again as a little bit of horror, a little bit thriller, a little bit Western, which I think sounds really interesting. The New Yorker just did a really interesting podcast episode about the resurgence of the American western. So I'm very into that right now. But it does say in a lot of the reviews that it is more literary and unsettling than actual horror or scary. So hopefully this one will be a little bit easier too, for anybody who's also on the fence. But this one, I haven't read it, like I said, but it starts with two strangers who meet in the Osaka airport. It is like a Japanese horror story. And they both miss their flights and they decide to get dinner together. And after they, like, have some drinks, they're feeling a little loose, a little vulnerable. They share with each other and discover that they have both lost Somebody close to them in the same sort of way. And how that is is that they both met this woman who photographs them, and then shortly thereafter, they sort of, like, devolve and, like, lose their minds and die. And then upon, like, investigating their death, there's some really weird discoveries. Like, all of their organs and their bodies have been, like, reversed, and they're on the wrong side. So it just seems, like, very weird. But the woman that they met is described as sort of, like, immortal. She never ages, she never looks the same, never uses the same name. And that's where they kind of get, like, the old soul title of the book. And so the book follows over time and, like, across the world just how she sort of came to be and why this is happening. All the reviews that I've read said it's just very singular and haunting and intriguing. It sounds really amazing. So I'm excited to dive into it.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you know what this reminds me of? That is probably absolutely not the intention.

[Olivia Mentor]

What?

[Becca Freeman]

Do either of you remember the Goosebumps book, the Camera Will Steal youl Soul?

[Jordan Bojejian]

I was not a Goosebumps reader.

[Becca Freeman]

It was about this camera that when it took your picture, you died. I thought about it every time I had my picture taken for at least a decade. Oh, it really stuck with me.

[Olivia Mentor]

I sound familiar, but as lore, not like, as. I didn't realize it originated there, I guess, is what I'm saying. But that does sound scary.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. I mean, who knows if Goosebumps originated it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I doubt either of you have seen this, but on the most recent season of Unexplained Mysteries, there's an episode about cows being mutilated. Anyway, it's basically the whole point of it is aliens. But the thing that made me think of it was the organs. Anyway, I'm not really suggesting anyone watch this, but I like something that is unexplainable, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

Jordan brought us an earnest book recommendation, and we were like, here are two weird things that made him feel like we have to talk to you about.

[Olivia Mentor]

I watched that episode of Unexplained Mysteries, and I need to know what happened to the cows, and I need to know what happened to these people at the airport as well. So it fits. It works.

[Jordan Bojejian]

No. First of all, I love Unsolved Mysteries, and I have not seen that episode. So clearly we're missing some of the new episodes. So that gives me something to do this weekend.

[Olivia Mentor]

There you go.

[Jordan Bojejian]

And I don't know, I love. I think it's nice to have things that Just don't make sense. Or they're just really weird. Because what else are we doing in our world right now? We just need some crazy stuff to read. So I do think this one has some supernatural. I read one review that said something about planets, so maybe there are aliens involved. I don't know. But I'm here for it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow. Yeah. I'm curious. I have to say. I am.

[Becca Freeman]

Jordan, you have been fantastic. Thank you for bringing us two amazing book recs. Can you tell people where they can find you on the Internet if they would like more of your recs?

[Jordan Bojejian]

You can certainly find me on Substack, my newsletter, the Composite. I love Substack. I love both of your substacks. It's just, like, truly the most wonderful place to be on the Internet, I feel. And I do book content there, too. And then besides that, you can find me on Instagram @jordanboji gym. My background is in, like, inclusive fashion, so I share a lot of, like, outfit style content, also book reviews and, like, pictures of my French bulldog. So it's a good time.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, Olivia, you have a tough act to follow with all of these great recommendations, but I'm positive you're up to it. Tell me the first book that you have brought to recommend.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. I have two books, one of which you've heard me talk about a bit, but I've already read, so I feel like I can solidly recommend it to the people. And the other one is one I am excited about, but I haven't read. So I'll start with that one because that one's new. And this one is Isola by Allegra Goodman, which comes out on February 3rd, so pretty, pretty soon. I haven't actually read anything by Allegra Goodman. She wrote Sam, which was, I believe, a Jenna's Book club pick a couple years ago, and some other books as well, I think. But this book is historical fiction about a young woman and her lover, and they are marooned on an island and they have to survive. So I think it's like a survival story. It's a love story. They're on this island and they have to find a way to survive, like I said. But I needed to read this, like, brief review from Literary Hub, which says, Resilience, Surviving the Elements, Polar Bears, which I'm in just. It sounds good. And then it also goes on to say, but one of the best parts of Goodman's writing is her insistence that all young girls have stories and lives worth sharing. That just sounds like a combination of elements that I will really enjoy. I also have not read a romantic historical fiction novel in a long time that I felt really swept up in. Another review of this said that it's like the perfect book to read by a roaring fire. I liked that a lot. So, yeah, I've been screening books for the February Book Club pick. Having a lot of difficulty.

[Becca Freeman]

A lot of options. You mean difficulty in that there's too many good things. Right.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I've been reading a lot of. And nothing is like, nothing is clicking. So I may check this one out if I can get my hands on an advanced copy in the next couple weeks. Coming down to the Wire. But anyway, I think it sounds very, very interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

I can't tell where this island is. I mean, first of all, maybe the most beautiful cover I've ever seen. Fantastic cover.

[Olivia Mentor]

Very beautiful.

[Becca Freeman]

The COVID seems Mediterranean to me. But then the addition of polar bears in that review then just makes me wonder if there's like a Lostian element to it. The TV show Lost, where there's mysterious things happening on this island. So I'm intrigued. It was only lightly intriguing until I heard polar bears, but now it's incredibly intriguing.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know. I saw that review because I was like, oh, which one? I have this list of all these 20, 25 books I'm interested in. And I was reading reviews and I saw this one. I was like, I'm in. I'm ready. And then my second book is, of course, Heartwood by Amity Gage, which is also, weirdly, a survival story. I guess I'm very into surviving the elements this year. I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

Are you being paid to promote this?

[Olivia Mentor]

You would think I really am. But I just, like, I feel like she's one of my new favorite authors. So I'm, like, very passionate about it. Anyway, this is a book about a woman who is hiking the Appalachian Trail despite not really being an experienced hiker, and she gets lost. It's, I think, roughly based on, I would assume, I don't know if you read the news story about this woman. She was older, maybe in her 60s or 70s, and she got off trail on the Appalachian Trail and couldn't find her way back, even though she was relatively close, like a walkable distance from the trail. She just got so disoriented that she ended up dying.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I think I do remember hearing about this story.

[Olivia Mentor]

And she wrote in her journal, I believe, when she was out there, in case someone found her. And so that's also a part of this book. So, like, it switches from the Story to excerpts of the letters that this main character is writing as she's lost. So it's like. It's literary suspense. It's very short. I read it in literally one night, couldn't put it down.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. You all know how I feel.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like I have to check this out also. Seawife. Seawives.

[Olivia Mentor]

Seawife, yes, Seawife.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like you've just. You have such glowing things to say about this author's work that I feel. I feel deeply compelled by your recommendations. I feel like our listeners do too. They just can't get their hands on this yet.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm scared because I'm like, maybe I'm hyping it up too much. But I mean, if you like literary suspense, I just think that, you know, standing ovation.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't think that's gonna be the case. But I do think there's something delightful to that too. Of finding something that you are singularly so excited about that feels like it was written just for you, that nobody else likes or gets.

[Olivia Mentor]

I would be fine with that too. There's something really pure. I think part of the reason I'm so passionate about this book is because I had never heard of it. I had never heard of the writer. I requested the arc on a whim. It arrived. I read it in one sitting and I was like, yes, this.

[Becca Freeman]

What a perfect reading experience.

[Olivia Mentor]

It just felt very pure. And I was like, I don't need. Like, I hadn't read anyone else's opinions on it. It was just mine. And like, I trusted that. And that's such a nice feeling with reading.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I love that. Hopefully you all have picked up many book recommendations this episode. If you have more, please come tell them to us in the Geneva group or in the Facebook group. We would love to hear about them, but should we get into some ed matter?

[Olivia Mentor]

Let's.

[Becca Freeman]

It seems like you have a podcast related obsession.

[Olivia Mentor]

I do. I. Okay. After our goals episode went live, in the two weeks or whatever, it's been one week, I don't even know what is time. I think I have maybe gotten 50 messages related to Jarlic and or Garlic. Like the tools, the suggestions, the tips, the tricks, this community really came out for me to support my goal of not using Jarlic from this point on in my life. I was kind of laughing to myself because at one point I had like. I think someone actually emailed the Bat on Paper podcast email with the tiff. I had so many DMs on Instagram. Someone requested to message me on substack about this someone? Like, the list went on. Like everyone was trying to contact me to make sure I knew the tips about how to avoid getting the smell of garlic on your hands and how to use fresh garlic. But I was just imagining, like, if I died and someone were to like go through my social accounts and they would just be like, who really loved garlic. Look, why is everyone messaging her about garlic? Like, what kind of weird garlic community is she part of?

[Becca Freeman]

Like a garlic fetishist?

[Olivia Mentor]

Garlic after dark.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, we are doing an obscure erotica soon. Maybe you can find a garlic themed one.

[Olivia Mentor]

I probably could. Anyway, thank you to the people for helping me through this time so far. I am staying strong and that's it.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you guys have a Trader Joe's? I feel like those cubes of garlic feel like they could be a nice, happy medium for you.

[Olivia Mentor]

We don't, but there is a hack with like putting a bunch in a food processor and then putting in a bag and then sort of making into a grid and freezing it. Will I be that dedicated? I don't know. I think I will just smell. So if you meet me and my hands smell of garlic, still, just know it's because I'm dedicated to this, not because I am disgusting.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you think that Olivia is a vampire and this is all like a really long ruse that she touched garlic, but also doesn't want to come out as a vampire and so has just been slow rolling this?

[Olivia Mentor]

The poster of Edward Cullen on my wall as a teenager? My paleness. I think that's my main thing to add up. Yeah, no fangs. My teeth are way too small for that. But one day anyway. What's your obsession? One day? I don't know. Am I planning to get fangs? Why did I say that?

[Becca Freeman]

That feels like an admission of guilt.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm so sorry to everyone. What's your obsession?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, my obsession is a new purse that I got for Christmas that I asked for. It is the Madewell Essential Bucket tote. And this is important, it's the medium size, not just the essential bucket tote, which I have a friend who has and she says it's way too big. So the medium one. And I have it in the color Merlot, which on the website looks redder, but in real life is more purple. I am obsessed with this bag. But moreover, I have been carrying such small purses for the last for years or so. I have forgotten how convenient it is to have a big old purse that I can throw whatever I want in. I need to bring an umbrella, throw it in my purse. Gloves, Throw it in my purse. A book, Put in the purse.

[Olivia Mentor]

Garlic in the purse.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know that I want to put garlic in there, but if I wanted to, I could. That is a case for Jarlic. I want it to be contained.

[Olivia Mentor]

True.

[Becca Freeman]

I am loving having a larger purse. It's not that heavy though, the purse itself. So, you know, I mean, I guess I could load it down with books and then it would be heavy, but it feels like a good, lightweight, medium sized bag that I can still fit a lot of shit in. Like, I could fit my laptop if I needed to, but it. It would be a little too small for a laptop.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm right there with you because similarly parallel experience. I asked for that coach suede bucket bag for Christmas and I. I'm like, afraid to take it out of the house because it's suede and I'm just like terrified it will get ruined. But I love the idea that I can just put anything in there.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I could fit a child in there. I don't have one. But, like, it is significantly sized. I think it's probably like too big. I think yours is probably the right size, but I love it.

[Becca Freeman]

I used to carry bigger purses and then I just. I don't know, I started carrying very small crossbody bags and I've forgotten the joy of just having anything you could need.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, well, we've been in like a tiny bag trend era for a while. You know that like, I think it's called Jacquemoucmou. That brand where they had the tiny, tiny version of the bag that you could only fit, like a lip gloss. Jock Moo, I feel like only. Yes. Is that how you pronounce it? Yeah. I'm really Giacomo Jacquemou. Giacomo. Okay, that's good to know. I sometimes imagine that bag, like, with myself.

[Becca Freeman]

Now I'm self conscious as a bag.

[Olivia Mentor]

A larger person. It would be hilarious. It would be like a necklace charm for me. I don't know. It could be anything.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, well, apparently, According to this YouTube pronunciation video, it's Jocamoose.

[Olivia Mentor]

Jocamoose.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. This is from a YouTube pronunciation video, so I'm not positive. Yeah, it is. No, now I'm on a different side. It says Jacquemus or Jacques Mousse. So I was wrong. Well, I don't know that you were.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right either, but it's fine.

[Becca Freeman]

What did you say? Did you say Jacques mousse? Did I correct you?

[Olivia Mentor]

I said Jacques Jock Moo. Because I assumed the S is like, who needs it in French? I don't know if that's true. I know nothing about French.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, what an asshole I am. You were closer all this time.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, it's okay. I didn't know what I was saying. But anyway, I'm with you. Let's move into the big bag era. Back to the early 2000s. Giant. I had a giant leather knockoff Dolce and Gabbana tote that I could have fit the world in. Who knows where that bag is now? But yeah, I'm with you.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. What about reading?

[Olivia Mentor]

Like I said, I've been screening a lot of books for the February picks, so I haven't finished anything. But. Okay, stay tuned. What about you?

[Becca Freeman]

So I'm in the middle of this, which I feel like we've learned usually not to talk about something until you finish it, but I am so freaking giddy about it. Like I. Oh my gosh, I cannot imagine it taking a turn that I do not like it. So I am reading Beg, Borrow or Steal by Sarah Adams. And this is the third book in the Rome, Kentucky series. And it's a series of small town closed door romances. Semi closed door, like Fade to Black, I guess. The first one was cute. The second one was so good. And I might like the third one even better. Like they are so good. So, so good. It's about a bunch of siblings. The first book is when in Rome and it's about a pop star who gets stranded in this small town and ends up falling in love with this guy. The second one is the guy's younger sister who falls in love with the pop star's bodyguard. And then this one is about another of their sisters who is in a rivalry with. She's a second grade teacher like the other second grade teacher in her school. Such cute romances. So well done.

[Olivia Mentor]

Everyone loves this author. I feel like she has a fanatical fan base.

[Becca Freeman]

This series is so cute. I will say that I've read some of her earlier ones and they're a little bit too sweet for me. They're not my cup of tea. A little almost like a little too silly too. But this is perfect for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh great. Sounds fun.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, perfect for Valentine's Day. I was also very disappointed because I just had to DNF something that I was really looking forward to. So this is my palate cleanser and it is great.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, if none of those interest you, you could join us in reading Stolen Focus, which is our January book club pick. And we'll be discussing soon. Becca, do you want to give the quick pitch for that?

[Becca Freeman]

Sure. So it is a nonfiction book about our inability as a culture to pay attention. And it is the author's personal story of a summer where he goes to Provincetown without a phone or a laptop that will connect to the Internet. And he tries to live off the grid, along with a highly researched narrative, talking to a bunch of experts about the reasons why we can't focus and propose solutions for how we might fix that. So if you're coming into the new year thinking about your phone habits or, you know, wanting to slow down quality over quantity, just be more focused in any aspect of your life. I think you'll think this is really interesting. I think this was recommended in our episode that we did with Leslie Stevens about phone addiction. And so, you know, if that struck a chord with you, I think this will as well. So very excited to discuss it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm very excited as well. And if you want to talk to us about any of the books we talked about here today or what you're excited to read in 2025, you can join us in the Bow and Paper Facebook group, which is under Bow and Paper Podcast, same name on Instagram. And I am on Instagram and substack at Olivia Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I am on Instagram ecamfreeman. And my newsletter is Becca Freeman substack.com just no M. So see you around the Internet. And we'll be back next week for book club.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.