← Bad On Paper
Bad On Paper
A Deep Dive Into Our Reading Lives
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This week, we’re sharing an inside look at our reading habits! We dive into how we choose what to read, our favorite times to read, who we talk about books with IRL, our rules of thumb for DNF-ing, and more! Becca’s TBR - , , ...
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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:21]
B
And I'm Olivia, Mentor.
- [00:23]
A
And today we are doing an episode that is a whole deep dive into our reading lives. I mean, I think we could. We can maybe call it Life of a Book Girl.
- [00:32]
B
I'm ready. I have the fireplace going behind me. It is a bright and sunny October morning, and I'm ready to talk about my favorite thing. Really? Yeah.
- [00:42]
A
You brought the vibes.
- [00:43]
B
I try. Well, tell me about your high.
- [00:45]
A
Okay, so my high is going off of my low last week, which was that I was feeling very off. Like I just felt kind of skin scattered and not myself. And I've had a really slow week this week, and I've really been listening to myself instead of trying to just be productive at all costs. And I feel less off, which is the goal.
- [01:09]
B
Good. Yeah, I'm glad you said you needed that. So the universe delivered.
- [01:15]
A
Yeah, no, I'm feeling much better than I was. We recorded that on Monday, and today is Friday. And I feel pretty night and day from the beginning of the week. In a good way.
- [01:23]
B
Don't you love how that can be the case? Just a few nights of good sleep.
- [01:28]
A
Some rest, like new, some reading, some painting, some hobbies. Less scrolling.
- [01:34]
B
Good way to kick off the month.
- [01:36]
A
Yeah. I said rabbit rabbit on October 1st. Are you a rabbit rabbit person?
- [01:40]
B
No. I only really know that in relation to Sarah Jessica Parker because she always posts it. Oh, I don't know. Is there a meaning behind it? I don't actually know.
- [01:49]
A
I don't know what the origin is, but it's something that my mom always told me as a kid. The first words out of your mouth have to be rabbit, rabbit on the first of the month. And it brings luck.
- [01:59]
B
Oh, I didn't know that. I just was like, this is a quirky thing that Sarah Jessica Parker does. That's nice. Well, maybe it's paid off already.
- [02:07]
A
Yeah.
- [02:08]
B
Good luck.
- [02:08]
A
What about you? What is your high?
- [02:10]
B
I already kind of mentioned this, but we've officially entered fireplace season. We had our delivery of our first couple cords of wood to the house yesterday, which was perfect because it was the first truly chilly day of the year. And we had the fireplace going in the library. I had the fireplace going in my cottage this morning. It is.
- [02:31]
A
You have fireplace in your cottage or it's just the wood stove?
- [02:34]
B
It's a wood burning stove.
- [02:35]
A
Oh, okay. Is there a visual component, though?
- [02:37]
B
Like, you can see the fire? Is that what you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a door. You can see through. It's like the same style as we have in the library where you like open the glass door and you put the logs in. So not quite a real fireplace, which I do love, but I just call them that because it's easier than wood burning stove for some reason. Anyway, it's just. It's one of my favorite things to have a fire going. It sounds good, it looks good, it's cozy. I love having them going at night because it just creates this really nice glow. And it's the first fall where we have had the wood burning stoves in the library and my office. And it's my first fall in this office actually too. So it's just. I love October already. I love it. I'm here for it.
- [03:20]
A
I'm so happy for you. We recorded an interview yesterday and yesterday and today. Both days you've logged on and you're wearing a sweater under overalls, which I feel like is a very you fall outfit.
- [03:31]
B
I. You know it is. Thank you. This is my brand, I guess. I have to say I have been feeling very shoppy lately. And these overalls that I absolutely adore from Gap, they have them in a brown corduroy.
- [03:45]
A
Oh, how has that not happened?
- [03:47]
B
I know. And I have a brown cashmere sweater that I could wear underneath and I would be like a giant human teddy bear. Which I had them in my car and then I abandoned them. I don't know why. Now I need to go buy them. They're probably sold out.
- [04:01]
A
Sometimes I feel like when you wear too much brown on brown though, you look like a monk. Not saying. You just anyone?
- [04:07]
B
It's a good point. I mean, I have to keep that in mind. But I might go buy them. I might go buy the corduroy. Great. Well, what's your low?
- [04:16]
A
So my low in a roundabout way kind of enabled my high. So there's a few different things that just so much feels out of my control timing wise right now. So. So I'd said last week that I was supposed to be getting my edits today and there was like a little bit of a snafu mix up. It's totally fine. And my edits aren't coming October 3rd, they're coming November 3rd. So now I actually have a month before them. So that is out of my control. There's a couple other things going on and I'm just like as a control freak and impatient person, it's driving me a little nuts. So on the plus side, at least I had a slow week this week because I wasn't like, oh, gosh, you're gonna have to jump right into deadline mode again.
- [05:02]
B
Right. Do you have any plans for distracting yourself while there are so many things out of your control?
- [05:07]
A
I haven't decided yet. Part of me is like, maybe this is a good time to jump into some low pressure work and go back to my manuscript on book three. Part of me is like, maybe I'll do some of that research reading that I talked about last episode. Part of me is like, hey, maybe just take the break and, you know, do substack, do the podcast and just read a lot, go on a lot of walks, like, paint during the day, like, just take it easy. So I haven't quite decided yet, I think, because this week I was feeling off. That was my priority. And then I think next week I have to decide what path I'm taking there.
- [05:48]
B
All right, well, you have some time, you know.
- [05:50]
A
I do.
- [05:51]
B
You can figure it out.
- [05:52]
A
Do you have a low?
- [05:53]
B
I don't really, but today is the first day of Taylor Swift's new album being out in the world, and we spent a not insignificant amount of time discussing it together before we started recording.
- [06:07]
A
Correct.
- [06:07]
B
But I think my low is really just. I walked down the stairs this morning. I. I didn't even put on pants. I was so excited. I was like, let me just run down the stairs. And I was like, jake, it's very.
- [06:17]
A
Risky business of you.
- [06:19]
B
Yes. Tom Cruise.
- [06:20]
A
And I. I picturing you, like, in your sunglasses.
- [06:24]
B
I, like, ran downstairs and Jake was there. And I was like, jake, it's Taylor Swift's new album day. I had already listened to, like, half of the songs in bed, at least the important ones. And I was like, would you believe it if I told you that there is an entire song about Travis Kelce in intimate detail? We'll just say that I'm paraphrasing what I actually said. And I was like, would you like to listen to it with me? And Jake said, no. And that's.
- [06:47]
A
I mean, that's your low, is that you got rejected about listening to a song about Travis Kelce's manhood with your husband?
- [06:55]
B
Yes. I thought he would be like, yeah, I'm curious. Let's listen together. And he just said no. And I'm going to need more enthusiasm, you know, I'm going to need more commitment to sharing in the cultural moment, which is Taylor Swift singing about her fiance's manhood.
- [07:13]
A
Well, I'm just gonna throw it out there. Do you think that this is actually jealousy because Jake is mad that you have not written a whole book about his manhood because I think that's what you do when you're in love.
- [07:26]
B
Well, book three, I haven't really talked about what it's about just yet.
- [07:29]
A
One big euphemism.
- [07:31]
B
I actually was thinking when I listened to Wood, there's gotta be someone out there who did a YouTube video who did a TikTok that was like, what if Wood is just all about Travis Kelsey's penis and that person was just.
- [07:43]
A
Making a joke and now they are like.
- [07:45]
B
And that person was right.
- [07:46]
A
Yeah.
- [07:47]
B
Anyway, so not really a low. I am feeling pretty good on this Friday. Maybe going off of that. I don't know if you find this Whenever there is big Taylor Swift news, albums, the engagement, there's such a sort of frenzy of energy in the air. I really have a hard time concentrating on things because it just feels like I want to be part of the cultural conversation. You know, I want to be looking at the memes and talking about the lyrics and not doing my actual work. Anyway.
- [08:16]
A
I feel less that way. But I do feel like after this I really want to go for a walk with the album on headphones.
- [08:23]
B
I'm with you. I'm driving half an hour to get my nails done later and I will be blasting that that album.
- [08:30]
A
Well, that's enough about life of a showgirl. Let's take an ad break and get into life of a book.
- [08:40]
B
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- [09:12]
A
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- [09:38]
B
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- [09:57]
A
All right, Olivia, I'm excited for this episode. I put out a call for questions for a Q and a newsletter for paid subscribers and somebody submitted this very multi pronged reading question and I was about to answer it and I was like, no, wait, this is a podcast episode.
- [10:16]
B
Yes. I'm so excited that you've brought this to the table and that I can participate in this conversation too. Cause I truly one of my favorite things to talk about.
- [10:24]
A
I mean, I feel like we've talked about this a lot over the years in pieces, but I don't know that we have one holistic episode about our reading lives. So we're going to tackle everything. So the first bucket of questions I have for us is about how we choose what to read. So I guess at the highest level, like, how would you describe your process for choosing what to read next? Is it pure mood? Do you have like a list going of next steps or priorities? Like, you finished a book last night. Take me through your thought process.
- [10:57]
B
Much like Travis Kelce, I am very much a vibes guy. I just. It's all vibes. It's just whatever feels right. The exception being if there's something I have to read for a blurb or for book club or some other reason. But pretty much it's just what am I in the mood for? And maybe a background detail is like, is this something that's coming out in the next few months that I could screen for book club? Okay, how about you?
- [11:24]
A
I kind of have a list of next up or priorities. And sometimes what I will do is I will take books out of my main TBR and make a mini tbr. Although recently I've been reading much more on my Kindle this year because the piles of books were starting to stress me out. So having it on my Kindle does not. And so that's become less feasible. So sometimes I keep like a little list in my notes app of kind of the things that I'm most interested in reading next and try to pick from there. But I would say even still 50% of the time I go away from that and it's pure mood. Like I finished a book that I was reading on Monday and so then Monday night I went into my Kindle and for whatever reason I was like, let me go back to the oldest book that I have saved on my Kindle. Or not the oldest, but like among the oldest. And I downloaded a sample of the Idiot by Elif Batuman and I had never tackled it and I was like, I'm gonna do this. So I feel like I have a little list that I'm going off of, but I feel like I veer from it fairly often.
- [12:41]
B
It's funny you say that because I just picked up a book that I have had in my pile and now on my TBR shelf for five or six years.
- [12:50]
A
And I just.
- [12:51]
B
I was like, this is the time. This is the time I'm going to read it. It's a Take Me Apart by Sarah Sligar. It's like a literary thriller. I think my mom got it for me years ago, but I was like, now is the time. And actually I enjoyed it because it's like I've had it for so long that the pages are kind of yellowed and like crink. And I really like when the pages are a little crispy. Do you know what I mean?
- [13:13]
A
I. No, I don't like that. Actually.
- [13:16]
B
They make a sort of sound when you turn them. It's like a crinkling is really delightful. In a weird way, I will say.
- [13:22]
A
I feel very free in my reading life right now because I picked October's book club pick and now my next pick isn't until January. So I feel very free that I have all of Q4 to kind of read whatever I want.
- [13:36]
B
I love that feeling.
- [13:37]
A
So you just mentioned your mom. I'm curious, who are the readers or media outlets or I don't know, just like the factors who influence what's on your TBR in the first place?
- [13:49]
B
This is a really good question. There's not like one source of inspo that I'm like, if they read and like the book, I will absolutely read and love the book. It's kind of a. An accumulation. Also, if I hear people talking about a book a lot, it will kind of create a curiosity, the confluence of.
- [14:07]
A
People talking about something.
- [14:09]
B
Yes, but sometimes it takes a little bit. I do really align with Sarah's bookshelves taste a lot of the time, I found. And whenever she posts her roundups on Instagram, I pay close attention to them and that can influence me sometimes. Other authors I really like if they post about a book. So I remember Ashley Audrain posted about Mad Woman by Chelsea Beaker and I was like, okay, I'm pre ordering this right now. Say no more. So it's kind of. I don't know. There's not one single source. But it's an accumulation of things, I think. And sometimes I just choose books totally at random. Cause I like the COVID or the title or the blurb. I'm very influenced by blurbs, actually.
- [14:53]
A
That's interesting. Cause I feel like there's been a discourse about how blurbs don't matter. And you're like, they matter to me.
- [14:59]
B
Yeah, they matter to me because I take them as a whole. Like if I look at the back of a book and I really love the authors that are blurbing it to me, that's really impactful because it shows me that the author is trying to sort of be in that realm or is in that realm and I might like them, you know. So that's how it matters to me. Not so much the content of the blurb necessarily, although that does impact things as well. But it's more so the selection of authors. What is this process like for you? Like what are you influenced by? I don't know if I know this at all.
- [15:34]
A
I agree with you about the confluence of Voices where you're hearing something about a book over and over. Like I remember in the very early days of Fourth Wing, that's what made me so feral to want to read it because I was hearing about it everywhere. But in terms of individual readers, I feel like Ashley Spivey has turned me on to some of my favorite all time books, including the idea of you. So I always pay attention when she raves about something. Morgan Pager, NYC Book Girl I feel like I get a lot of recommendations from things that she's enjoyed. Oh, you know who I get a lot of recommendations from? Following is Emily Sommer, who is the book buyer at East City Bookshop in dc. I think has impeccable book taste. She kind of straddles the line between commercial and literary and kind of goes both ways there. And she's usually reading quite far in advance because she's buying books for the store. And when she posts a rave about something upcoming, I feel like she has a very good picker. So I always pay attention to there too. But more and more I feel like I'm building my list pretty publication, you know, like I'm looking at upcoming lists for Goodreads, I'm getting pitches, et cetera. So in some ways I'm also just picking based on jacket copy.
- [16:57]
B
That's interesting. It's sort of more pure in a way.
- [17:00]
A
Yeah, I guess so.
- [17:02]
B
Because you're not hearing a bunch of buzz. You're pre buzz kind of. You're coming in before all of that.
- [17:07]
A
Yeah.
- [17:08]
B
Well, what about tracking your tbr, like organizing it? How do you do that outside of the Piles.
- [17:16]
A
Well, so, yeah, so I have a pile of physical books in my living room next to my couch. That's like a physical TBR mix of new, forthcoming and backlist things that I want to read. And then I talked about this notion template that I started using at the beginning of this year in an episode probably in Q1. And we can link the notion template in the show notes, but it's from a substack by somebody named Kim Peek. And I've added onto that both a TBR and a forthcoming book tracker. And so I track like upcoming releases that I'm interested in there and that flows into my substack. I've been doing twice a year book previews in January and in June. And then every month in my book report, I do the next month's releases. And so that's how I track all of that. And then I also just keep a list in my phone. I have this like master note in my phone where I kind of track everything. And if I'm in real life and somebody recommends a book to me, I'll like put it there with the person who recommended it. And so I kind of just always have a list there. And those are usually books I don't own yet. I mean, you know, I love a list.
- [18:28]
B
I know, but that's. I'm impressed.
- [18:30]
A
What's your process? Or do you have a process? Is it just the physical piles?
- [18:34]
B
Wish I did. Well, now I have the shelf, which is helpful because I can see them all at once.
- [18:39]
A
Is it just one shelf that's the TBR shelf or is it multiple shelves?
- [18:42]
B
It's multiple shelves. It's a whole bottom shelf across the entire bookshelf. So I mean, that's a lot of space. And I'm quickly filling it up because my God, do I have a lot of books that I need to read. I very rarely know the next book I'm going to read when I'm reading a book ever.
- [18:58]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [18:59]
B
It's really just I get to the end of it and then I think, oh, I want to read this or I want to read that. Which is probably different than most people. And it's kind of surprising to me. I mean, sometimes I have books that are top of mind or that I'm really excited about, but it's very random. Very random.
- [19:14]
A
Well, do you know this? Like, what are three books that you have right now on your near term tbr?
- [19:21]
B
I have the Bewitching by Sylvia Moreno Garcia, which is something I'm really looking forward to reading. Just cause it's spooky season and it just feels really fitting. And I loved one of her books that I read in the past. I also really want to read this book, what a Time to Be Alive by Jade Chang, which I want to screen for a book club potential. And I've had it just forever and I just haven't gotten to it for whatever reason. I should have brought it to the beach, but I didn't. One book that I don't actually own but is on my TBR is the Correspondent. And that's a great example of you talked about it and recommended it and loved it. And I was like, yeah, I should love that. But then I've heard more and more about it and it's just one of those things where I haven't gotten around to honestly most of the time it's just if I see it at a bookstore and I remember that I want to read it, you know, because usually I'm buying my books in a store. I'm rarely will I order on Amazon, but I will sometimes. But because of that I forget a lot and it's not until I actually physically see it. And if I don't see it because it's sold out or the store doesn't have it, then you know, it takes me a while to get to it. What's next on your tbr?
- [20:29]
A
I would say three things that are kind of on my near term tbr. There's this book called the Ten Year Affair by Aaron Summers that it's a book of the month book in October and I've heard it comped to Big Swiss but less weird. It's a sliding doors narrative about these two people who meet at either children's playgroup or their children's preschool and they instantly connect and they're both partnered with other people. And so I think there's one narrative where nothing happens and then there's like a second timeline where they get together. And I'm very intrigued. I'm always very intrigued by sliding doors narratives. And yeah, something about this piqued my interest, so I want to read that. I'm also very interested in Daddy Issues by Kate Goldbeck, which is a romance. And Kate Goldbeck wrote you again in 2023, which I really loved and I thought it was a very unique voicey romance. And this is her follow up. The premise doesn't do much for me. I think it's about a very messy 20 something young 20 something who then falls for her neighbor who's a much older guy who's a single father. And I'm curious because of how much I liked Kate's debut if I'll like this. And also I have heard that there is a strong plotline having to do with Chili's, so I feel beholden that it is my job alone to read this.
- [21:56]
B
I really like the COVID of this one too.
- [21:58]
A
It's cool, right? It looks like a comic strip. It looks like a 70s comic strip.
- [22:02]
B
Yeah, I really like it as like a iteration of the cartoon cover that feels really fresh and new and modern and. Yeah.
- [22:11]
A
And then I would say the third one that I have on my mind is I have an arc of Anatomy of an Alibi by Ashley Elston, which is her second adult novel that comes out in January. And I do kind of have this on my mind as a book club pick because we haven't done a kind of popcorn thriller in a minute. And this is something that at least her adult debut was perfect for me in the not scary, but still Pacey Lane. And so I'm like, this could be a really good Venn diagram book.
- [22:44]
B
Oh yeah. I'm excited to hear what you think of that.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah.
- [22:47]
B
Do you spend a lot of time on Goodreads or storygraph?
- [22:51]
A
I spend way more time than you would think on Goodreads. It is on the first page of my home screen and I would say I check it on my morning scroll every day. I'm such a lurker. I love to know. I feel like the people I follow on Goodreads are a mix of some OG podcast listeners, real life friends, and then I follow a lot of authors and book influencers on it and I am constantly creeping on what people are reading.
- [23:18]
B
Is it just Goodreads or are you on storygraph too?
- [23:21]
A
No, I have a storygraph account, but I don't really use it and I know people are very Vocal about preferring StoryGraph. Goodreads is owned by Amazon. StoryGraph was founded by a black woman and it's an independent business. And I agree with all of the points. However, for me, I want to follow my friends on it to see what my actual friends are reading and they're all on Goodreads. And so storygraph just doesn't have for me the same community aspect of being able to follow the people who I know and want to follow in real life.
- [23:59]
B
And what is your experience using Goodreads? Do you actually use it like want to read? And that's your want to read tbr? Or is it kind of more of a mental like, oh, I remember this person gave it A good review and so I want to buy it.
- [24:11]
A
Yeah, no, I've stopped actually tracking anything on there. I've stopped rating anything except for if I read a really good debut that I really enjoy. I do try to remember to go on and leave a five star and leave a review for it. But otherwise I'm just kind of lurking at this point. And yeah, like if I see enough people reading it, I'll either download a sample on Kindle or I'll like add it to my notion tracker of something that I want to keep an eye on.
- [24:37]
B
So yeah.
- [24:38]
A
What about you? Are you on any of these platforms?
- [24:41]
B
I am not. I mean, I'm on Goodreads technically. Like I have an author account and stuff. We've already talked about how I don't read reviews. But I find Goodreads personally to be really triggering because I really struggle with like the numbers of it all in many aspects of my life actually. But I just. When you bring numbers into it, I just, I have a really hard time, I don't know, feeling okay. And it's not really like I would go on Goodreads and then inevitably end up looking at my own books reviews. It's more like when I see a book I love that has a horrible rating or when I see really, really, really harsh Goodreads reviews, I'm so empathetic to the author that it just like it pains me to read them. Like I can remember horrible reviews I've read on Goodreads. Cause I have been on there and I do go on there of course of other people's books. And I think about them all the time. Cause I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, it just, it hurts me so much. I did use it when I before I had published books as in the traditional way. And I wish that a version of it existed that wasn't attached to any numbers and it was just like actual qualitative reviews instead of like whatever. I don't know if that makes any sense.
- [25:54]
A
Like a more noble, not snarky version of it.
- [25:59]
B
Like I think people are as much as there is like very valid criticism. I think people can be cruel because it hits like it creates engagement. And I don't like that part of it a lot. And I feel like the really cruel stuff gets more engagement than, you know, this changed my life stuff. And I don't know if that's fair. I also think. I think a five star system is inherently flawed. I don't know if we've talked about this before, but I just don't think. I don't know. Same word. I just don't think it. I don't think it leaves any room for nuance. For example, when I was briefly looking at reviews for Little One, there was one that really made me laugh because it was like beguiling writing, great characters, three stars. And that's fine. Technically, three stars, I think in Goodreads own rating means liked it. But that to so many authors and readers, like somehow translates as a failure or not good enough or not enough to make someone want to pick it up. And I think that part is really tough because, I don't know, it just. I think a five star system does not leave room for nuance at all in my opinion. But maybe that's just me being an overly sensitive person slash overly sensitive writer.
- [27:10]
A
Well, it's definitely a reader space. And I feel like it took me a while after becoming an author to rip myself away from it because I've used Goodreads to track my reading since 2012. It was so ingrained in my reading life and I started to feel like, oh, this is slightly inappropriate, that I would feel deeply insulted if another author left a three star rating for my book. And so I don't want to do that to somebody else either. And I've kind of gotten to this place where I'm tracking my reading and ratings privately on this notion template that's just for me so that I do remember what I've read. And I can go back when I'm making recommendations or book lists or things like that. Like I have a record. But yeah, like it's definitely a reader space.
- [28:01]
B
It's also very easily used as a tool for comparison and I don't like that either. So I try to stay away. And there are so many other ways to find reading recommendations. But yeah, I'm happy to let it be just for readers.
- [28:14]
A
I guess I feel like one common question that we get or one common like point of interest is how does receiving books as either a podcast host or an author work? Do you want to go into that?
- [28:28]
B
Sure. I mean for me, I have people reach out to me personally over DM or email and then also I'm on email blast list for PR people who are promoting a book that's coming out in three months or four months or six months and they ask if we want a copy. And sometimes I just get them in the mail and I don't know how they got my address, but I don't really mind that.
- [28:50]
A
What happens when you get a book you didn't request. Are you, like, considering it? Are you going to put it on your shelf or are you like, I didn't want this.
- [29:01]
B
I usually put it on my shelf. I consider it. I don't feel, even if I request something, the book from the publicist, I don't feel like I absolutely have to read it and I have to talk about it necessarily. I feel like we all understand in this business, authors, readers, podcasters, that, like, there are only so many hours in the day, you know?
- [29:22]
A
Yeah.
- [29:23]
B
So I do my best to read. I do my best to share on social media, although I'm not the best at this. If I get, like, a mailer, that's clearly something that the publisher spent a lot of time, effort, and money on. Just because I again, I'm like, this helps the author. And it takes two seconds to share a photo of a mailer. And even if I haven't read it, I feel like that's a nice thing to do. But I could be better about that. Do you like this or hate this? When you get a book that you didn't request and they just send it to you?
- [29:51]
A
I hate it. I don't like physical clutter. I would say I very rarely get a book in the mail that I didn't request that I actually.
- [30:01]
B
Well, you do have one coming your way soon.
- [30:03]
A
I'm so excited. No, that I want little one.
- [30:06]
B
I know. I'm kidding.
- [30:07]
A
I've thought about requesting it on NetGalley, but I'm like, no, I'll read it when Olivia wants me to read it. I will not, like, go behind her back and read it.
- [30:13]
B
So it's on. It's on its way to you.
- [30:16]
A
Yeah. I mean, if I get one from a friend or somebody, I know I'm always excited. But publicists will sometimes send books. Here's an example. Last year, there was this book that came out that was about Taylor Swift. It was by Rob Sheffield, and it was called Heartbreak is the National Anthem. Olivia. I got five copies of that book over the course of its promotion cycle. I got, like, early galleys. I got arcs. I got finished copies. Like, I got five of that book. And I was like, I'm not going to read that. I don't really read nonfiction. I was like, I'm not going to read this. How do I get off this list? This is so annoying that I now have five copies of different states of this book. Or for a moment, I was on a list where I was getting, like, probably twice a month. I was just getting a big package with the Harlequin romances, like the grocery store small copy, Fabio on the COVID romances. And I was like, how did I get subscribed to this? I don't want this. So more often than not, when I get a book I didn't request, I mean, I always look at it. I'll read the jacket copy, but it usually goes into my giveaway pile because I feel like I have enough that I have requested that I do want to read that unless something really catches my eye, I'm, like, more annoyed if I get something sent to me that I didn't ask for.
- [31:38]
B
How often does this happen to you? Because I probably only have a book that I didn't request end up on my doorstep maybe a couple times a month.
- [31:46]
A
I would say now that's probably true too, but I would say before the pandemic, it was way more common.
- [31:52]
B
Okay, okay.
- [31:54]
A
Like, maybe multiple times a week.
- [31:57]
B
I also think I probably receive less because I've just been in the space for a shorter amount of time.
- [32:02]
A
You've also moved.
- [32:04]
B
Yes, I have. So you're sure there's some in my old.
- [32:07]
A
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And what I've started doing this year is I used to always ask for a physical copy because I preferred reading a physical book, and I would always have more books than I could read. And I've started doing Kindle now, and I got a paperwhite, which, like, for my eyes, feels better than any kind of, like, glowing screen. I don't mind reading on the paperwhite that way if I don't get to it. A, it doesn't stress me out. It's not a physical object in my space. And then B, like, nobody spent money on the printing or shipping. Arcs are very expensive, so I didn't waste an arc that somebody else who would love a book could have gotten. So, yeah, I've started taking a lot more in digital format.
- [32:50]
B
I need to do that. I'm physical only at this point. I rarely charge my Kindle, but it is easier.
- [32:56]
A
Probably having 200 unread books in my Kindle doesn't stress me out. The same way of having a giant 200. Yeah, probably of having a giant teetering pile of books in my living room does.
- [33:10]
B
200 is wild. I probably have unread books right now in my collection. Maybe 50. So are you just requesting these, like, left and right?
- [33:19]
A
So what I will do is I'll also kind of use it as a tbr. So if somebody sends me a pitch, like an email pitch, and I'm Interested. And usually those pitches have just like a link that you can directly go to NetGalley and download the Ark and is. I'll just download it so that I have it as a reminder that I wanted to read it. So I am definitely like slutty with NetGalley in a way that I don't feel like I A, have to read it or B, I don't feel like it's wasteful in the same way that getting a physical book is. So, yeah, I'm kind of slutty about it.
- [33:50]
B
Should we tell people what NetGalley is? I'm sure most people listening know.
- [33:53]
A
But Yeah, I mean, NetGalley is a platform for early readers. I think kind of the main buckets on it are people who are press, people who are librarians and educators, people who are reviewers and then influencers. And that's where the publisher has advanced digital copies that they've uploaded. And so there's kind of two ways to get them. So you can either go through and you can request the book and publishers go through and they approve or deny people. And I think there's like a feedback rating on the back end of how many books you've reviewed. You know, if you have a good feedback rating, not that the feedback has to be good, but that you're reading and reviewing the books that they're giving to you, I think that maybe helps your approval chances or as I said in pitches a lot of times, like a pre approved NetGalley link is usually just like included, so you can just click through and automatically download it from there. I feel like people always ask tips about NetGalley and I'm like. I feel like I'm in a different position where, like, my feedback rating is probably close to zero. Like, I don't think I'm the person to ask. Like, I'm mostly accessing NetGalley books through pitches or sometimes I'll apply for them. But, like, I think I'm being approved as media as opposed to being approved on the basis of my feedback score, which is abysmal.
- [35:19]
B
I honestly did not even know what NetGalley was until probably the past two years.
- [35:23]
A
Oh, really? There's another platform called Edelweiss, and that one I think is more for bookstore buyers. And that one's very confusing to me.
- [35:33]
B
It is. I went on there recently. It's.
- [35:36]
A
It is, yeah. Okay. We've talked so much about how we choose what to read. I can already tell this is gonna be a long one. I wanna talk about the actual reading. Like the Nitty gritty. Like, when and where do you read and for how long are your reading sessions?
- [35:53]
B
Pretty much on the whole, the only times I read are 30 minutes to an hour in the morning and every morning, 75% of the time, and then an hour to two hours at night before I go to bed. In bed. And that's really it. Occasionally I will read. Like, if I have finished all my major work for the day and it's four or something and I have something I have to read for work, like to blurb or for the podcast, I will read it then. But I try to reserve the morning and the evening reading for just the books I want to read. Like, not to say I don't want to read a book club pick, but as we've talked about, sometimes it's like, oh, I have to read that. You know, it's kind of. It doesn't matter if I love it or whatever. That's pretty much it. And then, of course, on vacation, it's pretty much all I want to do.
- [36:42]
A
You're reading a half an hour in the morning and one to two hours in the evening. How many books are. Would you say you're getting through a week with that?
- [36:49]
B
It's so different week to week.
- [36:51]
A
I feel like you're averaging like two or three from the outside, probably.
- [36:55]
B
I actually just looked at this the other day because I've been keeping track of everything I read this year in a notebook. I just write the title and the author, and then I highlighted if I. It was like a standout. But I think I've read so far this year. I think it was like almost 80 books, so I don't know what that was.
- [37:11]
A
Two a week? Yeah.
- [37:13]
B
Yeah, two seems pretty right to me. Okay, what about you? What's your routine? Like?
- [37:18]
A
I feel like I read for longer stretches, so I. If I don't have plans in the evening, I will read, and that will be my evening activity. Like, I will read for like three hours. But again, I have plans at least a few times a week, so I'm not reading every day necessarily. But when I'm reading for longer, I guess, and I don't watch a ton of tv. I mean, I definitely watch tv, but I am not somebody that if I don't have plans, I won't just, like, turn on the TV and find something to watch. For the most part, there are exceptions. Like, if I'm on deadline and I really feel like my brain can't handle reading, I'll do that. But in the regular times, I would Say, yeah, I usually opt for a book rather than tv. And if I watch tv, I'll only watch, like, an hour. Like, the other night I was like, oh, there's a new episode of the morning show. I have to watch that. And I'll just, like, watch that episode and then read. And then I'm a big weekend morning reader. Like, my ideal is that at least one morning of the weekend I can wake up, go to my couch with a cup of coffee and read from, like, 8:00am to noon.
- [38:26]
B
Four hours. Yeah, it's a long stretch. I enjoy a morning like that, too, but it's usually an hour.
- [38:33]
A
No, I like to take out, like, half a book at a time. Like, I feel like it's harder for me to feel into a book if I'm dipping in and out. Like, personally, I prefer longer reading stretches where I'm, like, really getting into a book.
- [38:47]
B
Okay. I mean, that sounds lovely. Sounds really nice.
- [38:50]
A
I like it.
- [38:51]
B
How many hours do you think you read a week?
- [38:53]
A
That's a good question. I mean, I'd say that I probably get through, like, one to one and a half books a week. And so, I don't know. I'm just thinking of, like, what the average Kindle reading time estimate is. It depends on how many pages a book is. But I'd say, like, I'm reading eight to 12 hours a week.
- [39:11]
B
Okay. Yeah, I think I'm somewhere around there as well. Do you have reading goals? Like, do you have a Goodreads goal?
- [39:18]
A
I always used to set one on Goodreads because otherwise, if you don't do the reading challenge, it, like, won't track your books all on that page. And I really liked that page. So I would always just throw in a goal that I knew I would hit. Like, I think I would throw in, like, 50 or something. I find reading goals, like, I could see cases in which they're useful, where if you're somebody who's not reading and you're like, I'm gonna set a goal of reading one book a month. And that I could find that being really helpful. However, I more often see people at the end of the year panicking that they haven't hit their reading goal and being like, give me short books to read so that I can hit my goal. And I'm like, I don't feel like this is the point. And, like, what's the difference, really? If you've read 50 books or you've read 60 books, are you enjoying those books that you're cramming in? So I Don't believe in reading goals for myself. The notion template I have does track how many books I've read. So it says that I've read 54 books this year so far. So I know how many I've read. But I'm not like, I have to read a hundred or I have to read however many. You don't have a reading goal, do you?
- [40:25]
B
No, but I used to set reading goals, even, like, how many books I wanted to read a month. Oh, wow. And then I did the Goodreads goals and stuff. I again, going back to numbers, I feel like numerical goals are the enemy of actually having deep satisfaction in your life, in a way, because I think if you're reading half a book a week and it's something that brings you a lot of pleasure and joy, you shouldn't get to the end of the year and feel like you failed because you didn't hit some number that you arbitrarily set at the beginning of the year. I think that's so ridiculous. And like you, I see those posts where people are like, I just read this really short book to hit my reading goal. Like, I vividly remember one of the weird erotica books we did. One of the reviews was like, I just had to hit my reading reading goal, which. Okay, fair. I just think that it takes the joy out of just reading for pleasure, and I don't want anything to take the joy out of that. But it has been kind of nice keeping track of the books I've read in this journal because it's not numbered. So if I want to go back like I did just this week and count them, I can. But it's not like I stare at my phone and the number is hitting me in the face every time I want to read something or track something, you know? So I'm anti reading numerical goals.
- [41:38]
A
I think, okay, well, are you pro or anti? Do you use any reading accoutrement? Do you use highlighters? Do you, like, underline? Do you, like, write in the margin, sticky tabs? Like, do you use any accoutrement in your reading life?
- [41:52]
B
Not really. If I read a sentence that just knocks me on my butt and I love it so much and there's something about it that speaks to me, I will get up and I will find a pen or a highlighter and I will underline it or take a picture of it as well, usually. But I don't read with a pen nearby, usually. I don't even really have a go to bookmark. I don't use tabs and actually I think, I don't know if you saw this, but I saw some posts somewhere and it was a photo of someone using tabs and all of the notes were just kind of nonsense. It was like underlining things that didn't need to be underlined. And the point was just about people using tabs and notes and stuff for like, just for the, the aesthetic of it all instead of like, oh, I.
- [42:37]
A
Love the aesthetic of it though. I find it so satisfying when I see a tabbed up book.
- [42:43]
B
I, I agree there is something satisfying about it. I just don't think they're necessary. Maybe, but if you enjoy them, I support it and I do like the idea of them. What do you usually use? You don't use tabs every time though, right?
- [42:54]
A
So, okay, so if I'm reading for pleasure in my real life as opposed to my fake life, if I'm reading for pleasure, I do not use highlighters or tabs or anything else. I do, however, if I'm reading something as research for something I'm writing or if I'm reading to prep for the podcast book club, I will use highlighters and tabs. You know, for the podcast. It's like, here's a passage that I want to talk about. Here's like maybe a quote I want to read on the air for my research. Reading. Like, I just took apart my pile. I had this like teetering pile of books in my office for the last two years as I've been working on my current book of books that I kind of was like pulling out and revisiting and reading for that. And so Sometimes my book 2 is a second chance romance. And so I would be reading other second chance romances to be like, oh, how do you balance the pace here? How are these reveals shown? Like, where are the steamy scenes? You know? And so I would be tabbing things where I was like, okay, here are the steamy scenes. So I could like go back to them. And it depends. Like, I remember when I was writing the Christmas Orphans Club, one of my agents big notes for me was more big emotion on the page. And I don't think I fully understood what that meant when she gave the note. And so I would be reading other books and I would like highlight when I got something that I was like, oh, yes, this is what she means. And I would like tab it so I could go back as examples. And I would say 99% of the time I never go back to the tabs. But like almost the act of rereading Highlighting and tabbing something. I'm like, it kind of registers in my brain in a different way.
- [44:37]
B
Yeah, I will say that I do highlight and take notes and tab when I'm studying, like an edit letter or an email from my agent or my editor where there's like a lot of notes about things that need to change or I'm going through my own manuscript and I. I enjoy it a lot. Like, I really like back to school, sitting in class, taking notes, kind of feeling.
- [45:01]
A
Yeah, a lot. We've kind of touched on this. So how do you balance reading for pleasure versus reading insofar as it's become a facet of your professional career, whether that's blurbing, reading for the podcast, or reading as research for books that you're writing?
- [45:21]
B
Well, like I said, I try to. If I can read the books that are for professional purposes during, like business hours, if you will.
- [45:30]
A
Oh, I feel so guilty about that. I almost never read during business hours unless I have really painted myself into a corner. I don't know why it is a part of my job. I should be allowed to read during business hours and I almost never do.
- [45:46]
B
Yeah, it's only something I started doing recently. And it's only, like I said, if I get to the those last couple hours of the workday and I have the space for it. And it's because I found that I would wake up in the morning and really look forward to, you know, that morning reading or get in bed and look forward to the evening reading. And if it isn't a book that I had specifically chosen because I want to read it for pleasure, even if I will love it anyway, you know, it's just something about it I feel, I don't know, graded at me. And so this is my job.
- [46:15]
A
Grudge against it if I have to read. So I think of the weekend as my pleasure reading time. So sometimes during the week I'll have to read something for work in the evening, but on the weekend, I try to keep it that, like, I'm reading something purely for pleasure. If I don't get that, I find that I become like, kind of resentful.
- [46:34]
B
Resentful.
- [46:35]
A
Yeah.
- [46:36]
B
So during the week you're only reading books for book club and.
- [46:39]
A
No, not only, but like if I'm screening a book for book club or if I'm reading something to blurb, like, I'll do that on a weeknight, but then have something going simultaneously or step away from that and read something on the weekend that's for pleasure. I think I would like to figure out a better balance of reading during the workday. I think it's challenging because I read during the workday for research for my own books while I'm in the drafting phase. Because as we've spoken like in the drafting phase, I'm really sitting down and writing for one to two hours a day. And so there's many more hours in which I could, you know, be reading for research because I read a lot while I'm writing as research for my own book, whether that's like nonfiction stuff that I'm reading for, like facts or background information to layer in, or whether that's just as like, comps or other similar books for inspiration. And so I do that during the drafting phase, but during the editing phase, I feel like that takes up much more of the day. And so I don't feel like I have as much time during the day that I'm like, oh, yes, I have an extra two hours in the day and like, let me read.
- [47:50]
B
Do you feel like that feeling about reading has evolved since you've joined the podcast or from the beginning? Have you always sort of felt resentful of the things you had to read?
- [47:58]
A
I. It's not that I feel resentful. It's that if I don't also have a pleasure book going, I can feel that way. But I'm like, it's very cool and very fun that I get to read as part of my job. And I like, I still really delight in getting early access to books that I'm excited about, especially by favorite authors, like, oh my gosh, there's nothing cooler. So it's not that I feel resentful about having to read for my job, but if that's all I'm doing, I can become resentful, to be clear.
- [48:27]
B
Yes, I understand.
- [48:29]
A
But it is interesting because in the earliest days of the podcast, we were just picking willy nilly books we'd already read to do as book club. Like we, in the very beginning it was, we mostly read YA books and it would a lot of times just be something we'd already read. And now I do feel like I put a pressure on myself, probably also on YouTube that like, we want to pick new releases. And so there's like an element of screening that happens now that didn't happen at the. In the very earliest days of the podcast.
- [48:58]
B
Yeah, I think the screening, I mean, as I've said, I. I was not as good about the screening in the beginning. I've become better. I also have more access to books I'm still not on NetGalley, which I will just probably remain that way. It does add a certain layer of thought and planning to. To your reading life that doesn't exist.
- [49:18]
A
Otherwise, you know, And I really want to do a good job about it. So I'm. I take it really seriously. And I. I can get stressed if I am like, oh, gosh, like, I don't have the right book for book club. Sometimes I know, like when I read Hart the Lover over the summer, like, I wasn't even necessarily reading it as a book club screen. I was just reading it because Lily King is one of my favorite authors. And I knew immediately. I was like, oh, this is something I'm really excited to talk about. This should be a book club pick. Other months I'm like, I don't know what should be our book club pick. And I can get really stressed about it because I want to have a book that I'm excited about. I want to have a book that's a good discussion.
- [49:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, same. At this point, I kind of. My goal is like, is it something that's coming out? Which sometimes it ends up being backlist, but also, like, is this something that I feel passionately about is really all that I can do? And of course, I hope you like it too. Or I think you might, or, you know, you never really know, but that's all I can worry about, I guess. But sometimes those are hard to find. You know, how often do you read a book and you're passionate about it? Well, then add in, how often do you read a book, you're passionate about it, and it's coming out in the right time period.
- [50:27]
A
And sometimes books I'm passionate about aren't great discussion books. It's something I've learned, too. Okay, before we. I do want to talk more about the podcast book club, but before we get to that, I feel like such a popular question that people want to know is about dnfing. What are your personal rules of thumb for dnfing and how often are you DNFing?
- [50:48]
B
I DNF very rarely. Sometimes I will DNF, like, unintentionally I start something and I get distracted. I want to read something else, and then I don't go back to it, which is dnfing. But it's not like I hit a page and I think, I can't do this anymore. I'm moving on. Occasionally I will read, like, if I get to like a couple hundred pages in and I'm just absolutely dragging through it. I will stop a couple hundred pages. I know. I just really want to give it because I'm coming from a point of view of, like, I finish everything usually. So I'm getting better just because of the sheer amount of books I have to read of. If I'm a couple hundred pages in and I'm like, this just isn't hitting for me. I set it aside, but I have no rules about it, really. I think you have more set rules than me.
- [51:35]
A
Maybe it's not like hard and fast, but I usually give it 50 pages. And if I'm reading something and by 50 pages, I don't feel like I'm enjoying or I don't feel committed, I will put it down. I really liked this. I think it was in the Atlantic there was a rule for dnfing where it should be 100 pages minus your age. So meaning, like, if you're young. If you're 20, give it 80 pages. Like, you have more time in your reading life. Give it some time. But if you're 87, give it 13 pages. Because, like, life short, you should, like, only be reading bangers.
- [52:10]
B
That's a very good method.
- [52:12]
A
I really liked that. I was like, for anyone who feels like they need a prescriptive rule to adopt, I was like, I think that's a good one.
- [52:19]
B
Do you ever reread books?
- [52:21]
A
Sometimes? Rarely. These days in my personal reading life, I mean, I frequently reread the podcast book club pick. If it's my pick and I've read it a few months ago, I like to reread it to be fresh. So I'll always reread that. And sometimes I'll do that on audio versus if I read it with my eyes on paper the first time. I reread a ton of books for research for my books, I would say I'll usually have a few books that I'll read quite a few times during my writing process. So for this book that I'm writing now, like, I reread every Summer after by Carly Fortune and Love and Other Words by Christina Lauren, which are both second chance romances. Like probably three or four times during the writing process, which was, you know, I mean, this is over the course of like two and a half years so far. I do reread for inspiration frequently. I would say the cases where I reread in my present reading life is if a sequel or, like, book in a series is coming out. Sometimes I will reread the first book so that I'm like, fresh to read a sequel for like that's usually a Romantasy series or something. I feel like I have so much new reading to do. I don't reread a lot. Prior to having reading be a part of my professional life, I would occasionally reread. I wasn't a heavy rereader, but sometimes I would reread favorite books as, like, comfort.
- [53:51]
B
It's hard to find the time when you have 200 unread books waiting for you on your Kindle. You know, hard to justify it.
- [54:00]
A
Have you ever been a big rereader? Do you reread now?
- [54:04]
B
Not really. Very rarely. I've reread Project Hail Mary. I've reread the Awakening. Very different, but two of my favorites. I think I've reread the Push, but very rarely. I think I've said this before. I'm really afraid of like, tainting the purity of a perfect reading experience.
- [54:22]
A
Yeah.
- [54:23]
B
So I don't reread things as research for writing because I think I'm a little worried that it would almost influence me too much. But not that I think that's actually ever possible because every writer is so different. But just the fear is still there. But I have looked at the Paper palace again. I've looked at the God of the woods sometimes for like, structure stuff, but it's rarely like I'm sitting down and reading for pleasure in the same way that I've read that book for pleasure the first time.
- [54:52]
A
I find it just the absolute biggest compliment as an author. I had posted that it was the two year anniversary of the Christmas Orphans Club coming out last Friday and so many people said they were like planning to reread it in December. And I just, I find that the ultimate compliment of wanting to read something again. And I know there are so many people who have like comfort rereads of like every fall I reread X. I mean, I guess, you know, the thing I do reread is Big Magic. I've reread that four or five times in January. I didn't do it this January, but I think I will next January.
- [55:27]
B
That's so special that people are telling you they're rereading it. That's like, I.
- [55:30]
A
It makes me emotional. Like, it makes me feel misty.
- [55:35]
B
Yeah. I'm. As it should. That's wonderful.
- [55:39]
A
I. And I know it's like with all the choice of new books to be able to read, like the fact that you want to read this again is like the highest compliment.
- [55:47]
B
Yes. And a good reminder for people that if you read something and you reread it or it meant something to you. When you tell an author that, it really is like something very special to take the time to say that. So I always try to tell people, if you read something and you love it, message the author. Because I'm telling you, no matter how famous they are or whatever, it'll make their day.
- [56:06]
A
See something, say something. Well, let's take a quick ad break and then we have two more buckets of topics.
- [56:18]
B
This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. As I write this, we are experiencing our very first day of can we please start a fire or turn the heat on kind of weather. And I have been drinking hot tea and hot chocolate chocolate pretty much every single day already, and I am ready to hunker down and be cozy for the next few months. Cozy Earth makes that very easy. I highly recommend their Bubble Cuddle blanket, which is a blissful combination of comfort and style. And it has an extended plush pile and midweight construction, which means it feels really lush and luxurious and comforting. It's the perfect centerpiece for your bedroom or your living room.
- [56:58]
A
I have been in personal cuddle blanket season pretty much since I got back from my last trip in September, and I gotta tell you, the quality of my relaxation, the quality of my reading has gone up from this blanket. Like it is my favorite lounge blanket. It's a little bit heavy. It's so comforting. It's so soft. Like, oh, I do my best reading under this blanket. Not even joking. I mean, last year I was an evangelist for this blanket. I got so many of my friends to buy their own because it is that good. Also, gifting season is coming. This makes both a great gift to give or to ask for, so just planting that seed. Olivia and I are also big fans of Cozy Earth's bamboo sheets, which get softer and softer every time you wash them. I love them so much more today than I did when I first bought them. And I can't say that for most of the bedding I've owned in the.
- [57:49]
B
Past because home isn't just where you live, it is how you feel. Let's go home with Cozy earth. Head to cozyearth.com and use our code BOP for 20% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. That's code BOP for 20% off.
- [58:13]
A
Okay, I have two last categories here of reading questions, but I think they are shorter and we've covered some of them. So I did want to talk about. I don't know if we've talked about this in a while, how we choose books for the podcast.
- [58:26]
B
Yes. How do we choose them?
- [58:28]
A
Well, we've implemented a system that I feel like we've had maybe the last two years of alternating months, which I think is working really well. So we're not both screening for the same month. When Grace and I did it, it would always kind of just be a free for all where we were always screening for every month and we were both reading books in advance and agreeing on them before we made them a pick versus now. We're kind of like dividing and conquering. So we're doing every other month, which I think is also good because our taste is quite different. So it lends more variety to the book club as well. And I think both of us have a veto that we fairly rarely use. I think the last time I vetoed you was maybe when you wanted to do We All Want Impossible Things by Kathryn Newman. And I was like, I physically, this book was so emotionally intense for me. I do not think I could have a conversation about this on air without just sobbing the whole time. I would say more often we come to each other with like two or three options of like, hey, I like a few different things. For book club this month, do you have any opinion on which you are most excited about? I feel like that happens fairly often. Like this month for Heart the Lover, I was like, it is this use your veto or bust. But other months I feel less certain about what one book it is. Or, you know, like, maybe with Audition, I was like, I have this book that I really want to do, but it's like, kind of weird. So I have this alt. What do you think? Do you want to go weird or do you want to go more crowd pleaser? And so that'll happen.
- [60:04]
B
I think we also think about, like, the range of books we've chosen. Have we done anything historical? Have we done a thriller? Have we done too much of something? Is our range of authors not diverse enough? Like, I think we talk about all of that when we're considering too.
- [60:18]
A
Yeah, I mean, as far as how far in advance and how many books we screen, I would say it totally depends. Like, I read Hart the Lover in July and I knew that I wanted it to be the book club for October because it came out September 30th. So that was the first month. That was my month to pick and made sense. I would say, yeah, I'm usually trying to screen two to three months out and I'll like, read as many as it takes. And sometimes that's two books and sometimes that's 10 books. And that's where I'm doing a lot of dnfing. That's where I'm doing a lot of dnfing of things where I'm like, I'll read 50 pages and be like, this is not the podcast book club pick. Like, for instance, when I was screening for August, I read 50 pages of the Road to Tender Hearts, and I was like, oh, this has too many triggers. And so even though I was enjoying it, I was like, this is not the book club pick. I'm going to put it down. And then I went back to it later to read. But, yeah, I'll do a lot of dnfing in there of trying out a lot of books, reading 30 to 50 pages and being like, does this feel like a book club book?
- [61:26]
B
Because I'm not on NetGalley and I don't request a lot of books. It's like I kind of just choose from what I have in front of me. So, like, Isola was an early copy that was sent to me. Wild Dark Shore, I got an early copy that was sent to me. But I also, like, I read an early copy of Broken Country. So if you're listening to this, keep sending me early.
- [61:45]
A
Apparently, that's how I choose. I chase I will get. If I see a pitch for something or I see it on Goodreads or something, and I'm like, oh, that sounds like a good one. I'll, like, go find the publicist for something. I'll ask publicists at the house. I'll be like, oh, I don't know anyone at this imprint. Like, can you tell me who the publicist is for this book? And I'll, like, track books down.
- [62:08]
B
Yes, you're very good at that. For me, it's just if I read a book and I feel really passionately about it, I try to make a case for it. And I think usually there's something that works or that we haven't done in a while.
- [62:18]
A
Do you reread books before book club?
- [62:21]
B
Generally, I don't, but I will watch interviews with the author if they're available. Or I listen to podcast interviews with the author about the book, which tends to jog my memory with things. I think you reread, though, don't you?
- [62:35]
A
I always do, and especially if it's my pick. I read. I'll just admit it. I read a Reddit thread a couple years ago about how people thought we did a bad job facilitating Our book club conversations. And it really hurt me, but it also motivated me to get better at it. And I think we have gotten a lot better at how we discuss books and, like, being more rigorous about the outline as opposed to just, like, stating our opinions and being like, do you agree? Or like, what do you think? So I have tried to get more rigorous at coming up.
- [63:08]
B
What was the criticism about? Remind me. I don't.
- [63:10]
A
I feel like it's.
- [63:11]
B
I know you told me, but I told you.
- [63:12]
A
It's just that, like, we state our opinions and be like, what about you? And, like, the discussion wasn't that structured or rigorous.
- [63:20]
B
Huh. That's interesting because we've always done very thorough outlines for book club. I think we have.
- [63:27]
A
But I do think that I've changed the way I create outlines for book clubs after that. And I've tried to hone it as a skill of bringing in more textual examples or, I don't know, just trying to be more rigorous about it. And so I always reread the book right before I try to have it, like, very fresh. And I try to, like, read the first time when I'm screening just to be like, am I enjoying this? Do I think this would be a good discussion? And then the second time I'm reading more. So to be, like, right before the episode, to be like, okay, what elements of this do I want to talk about? Like, what questions do I have? What's interesting about this book that we want to discuss?
- [64:09]
B
But I think as long as one of, at least one of us, if not both of us, is passionate about the book, I think it's always going to be a good conversation. And in fact, when we disagree about the book, I think it's even more interesting.
- [64:19]
A
Yeah, I've heard that from. From listeners, too. I also think I've gotten maybe better at what books are good for discussion because, like, I. Historically, I like a lot of romance, and I don't think romance tends to lend itself to a good book club discussion. It's great for gushing over, oh, my gosh, I loved this. This was so great. This was so fun. But it's written in such a way that you're supposed to be rooting for the characters. You're supposed to want the ending. You know, there's a full genre of book club fiction that is supposed to have big questions and, like, multiple sides and opinions versus, I think romance, when done well, is supposed to go down easy. Not that it's easy to write, but that it's supposed to go down easy And I think that makes for less good book club discussion. Sometimes I do really like. I feel like there's a mini trend right now around literary romance, which I think does tend to have more book club conversation chatter. But, like, Emily Henry is one of my favorite authors, and I think it's generally really hard to discuss an Emily Henry between two people who enjoyed it because it's like, oh, did you like this? Yeah, I really liked that. Did you like that? Yeah, I really liked it too, which is, like, a boring discussion.
- [65:37]
B
I also think that one of the ways that maybe that could be interesting is if both of us had read every Emily Henry book, or we were, like, both of us, like, deep in romance as a genre, you know, and then we can compare it to all these other books. Whereas I have not read the majority of popular romance novels, so I have not. Even though I will probably love it and I'll enjoy it and I'll have a good conversation, I can't be like, well, you know, remember how Ali Hazelwood did this in this book? And I really liked that the trope was this way in this book and this way in the other book. And I think that sometimes makes it difficult for a romance as well.
- [66:10]
A
Oh, I feel like we should tackle this one. I feel like there's a common theme of why don't you announce books further in advance and why don't you choose more backlist? Basically, like, I'm a library reader, and I have a hard time getting timely access to your picks. And to that, my answer has always been, the great thing about a podcast book club is that it's there for you whenever you want to listen. I understand, and I'm honestly flattered that you want to, like, listen the day it drops, which is awesome. I don't know. I have a weird chip on my shoulder, and this is me, not Olivia. I think Olivia would be, like, so happy to have more backlists. But, like, I really think about the Jenna's Book Clubs and the Reese's Book Clubs, and I totally understand that we're not on that level. But, like, I want bad on paper to be a tastemaker in terms of this is what you should be reading and guide people to new releases. And so, I don't know, that's something that I feel really passionately about as a dream that, like, I don't know, one day there would be a bat on paper sticker that goes on books in a bookstore, and you're like, oh, yeah, like, I saw the bat on paper sticker, and I wanted to read this.
- [67:19]
B
Yeah. And I hear you there for sure. I think I'm partial to doing more backlist because it's easier, it allows for us to go a lot of different directions and it's less planning. But also I like the idea of, you know, giving a little shout out to a book that maybe people missed the first time around. But we do that and we have done backlist.
- [67:40]
A
Yeah. I think we've been trying to do like two a year maybe that are backlist.
- [67:45]
B
Yeah. And I think that's a good balance. But I hear you on this question and I also hear you on the why can't we be Jenna's book club one day dreams goals.
- [67:56]
A
Well, for our last topic here, if anyone's still with us, I wanted to talk about like our broader reading life. I'm curious to know, who do you talk about books with in your life?
- [68:08]
B
I have three best friends from college, Haley, Ayanna and Gabby. And I talk to them about books quite a bit. It's actually quite interesting because Gabby really only does audiobook ever and she like goes through them so fast and so it's so interesting to hear her point of view on stuff. And then my friend Hailey is also a big reader and my friend Ayanna is a writer and a reader as well. So we definitely are always talking about books in the group chat and sending suggestions. I have a lot of friends here that read, but so many skew romantasy in primarily romantasy. And I always feel kind of left out of that conversation, but I'm always taking their wrecks and giving them wrecks. I talked to Jake about books quite a bit. I will give him books quite a bit and then we will discuss them afterwards because I had read them a lot of times. I'll DNF a book, but I think he might like it. So then I'll give it to him and it'll be interesting to hear his take. That's pretty much it. I talk to my mom sometimes about books. We have pretty similar taste, but my mom really doesn't like a depressing book. Like her review, I would say 90% of the reviews I hear from her, like, it was just so depressing. And personally I'm like, well, life is kind of depressing sometimes and I don't mind the dark stuff at all. You know, as I get older, I feel like reading is such a precious experience. And when you love something, I just love to love something in a vacuum sometimes, you know. And like, I love to just have my moment with the Book. Like, I don't know if I would really like being in an in person book club so much. I don't know. I mean, I like talking to you about books, of course, but I just like liking what I like, I guess. And I'm sort of leaning into that. And just being in a reading world alone is sometimes kind of nice, I think. Weirdly.
- [69:50]
A
Oh, I like fetishize the idea of being in a real life book club. Every real life book club I've been in has not had great staying power just due to scheduling woes. But I feel like every couple years I'm like, should I start an in person book club? I don't have the follow through. I don't want to be in charge of it. But I would love to be invited into a thriving in person book club because I love the experience of reading together. I mean, that's one of my favorite parts about the podcast is like all reading the same book. And I feel like some months are better than others for people talking back to us and people like talking about the book throughout the month and their experience reading it. But like, I love reading in community.
- [70:32]
B
I mean, I enjoy it too. I guess. I just, this is enough for me. I don't need to.
- [70:37]
A
Oh, I want everyone to have my interests. Like when I'm obsessed with something, I start like when I read a book and this is probably only once every other year, but if I read a book that I'm obsessed with, I just start buying it for people in my life who are readers because I want them to read it and talk about it with me and love it too.
- [70:53]
B
Yes, and I agree with you. But I think the thing is that like, for example, I was reading this post the other day. We'll link it in the show notes. And it was someone who had had an in person book club and she picked Wild Dark Shore. And she was like, I love this. Everyone's going to love it. And most of the people hated it. And I was like, that experience would devastate me. Like, I would not enjoy that at all. And I, again, maybe I'm too sensitive for the world. You know what I mean? Like, I love talking about what I love and sharing what I love. But if everyone hated it, that it would just take something away from my love of it almost a little bit.
- [71:29]
A
I think it would depend, like, did they give it a good shot and why did they dislike it? If we could have a discussion about that. I always find it really enriching when you and I, like last month for Example with Notes on youn Sudden Disappearance, which was a book I don't regret reading because it was very interesting to see the career threads that led to the wedding people. But it was really enriching for me to hear why you liked that book so much.
- [71:55]
B
I agree with you. I think what's great about this setting and us having book club discussions is that we actually do sit and talk about the book in detail from a lot of different angles for an hour. I think in book clubs, what often happens and has been my experience is like, one person likes it, two people like it, and the rest hate it. And that's the end of the conversation. And everyone's moving on to like gossip and drinking wine and so. And maybe I'm just not a part of the right book clubs. You know, actually I can't remember how this came up, but someone messaged me in town about something and they mentioned a book club and I said, oh, if you guys are ever looking for new members, I'd love to be part of it. She's like, actually, we're good for now.
- [72:35]
A
Like, wow. Wow.
- [72:39]
B
I could be totally wrong, but I think she might have messaged me about maybe reading. Such a bad influence for a book club. And so maybe it was just that they didn't want me there if they read it. But like, ever you, like, what about the week after that? Like, you could all hate it. But then like the week after could I show up and like, no. Anyway, so I think, think when you find a good book club and maybe it has the same groove that we're in where it's like an actual in depth discussion, it feels different. But I think to me what feels bad is like if I'm like, oh, I'm obsessed with this book and someone's like, I hated it. And that's the end of the conversation that feels bad.
- [73:11]
A
So my friend Jenna is in this book club and I can't decide if I'm gunning to get invited or if I want to stay outside of this. I don't know. But she's in a very intense book club of mostly Brooklyn moms and the woman who hosts it and I think does most of the coordination for every book club pick, she also does an activity or like some kind of aspect for it. So for their most recent book, they read Martyr by Kava Akbar and they read very literary books, very like of the moment books that might be nominated for a Booker Prize or like a National Book Award type books. And I have not read this book and this is A light spoiler. So fast forward 30 seconds if you don't want it to be spoiled. But apparently a facet of that book is that the main character has a job as an actor in a medical school where he's pretending to be patients. And so for their last book club meeting, she got an oncologist to come, not somebody she knew, just like a random oncologist to come. And then everyone had to act out different medical ailments and they had to guess what ailment they were acting out. I was like, this is the most intense book club I've ever heard of.
- [74:26]
B
Who the hell has time for this? What? That's crazy. I guess if you're like only reading that book that month, maybe you also have time to plan a full theatrical event along with it. But wow. I mean, you should go because who knows what will occur?
- [74:44]
A
I know.
- [74:45]
B
How do you decide which books you keep?
- [74:47]
A
That is a very hard thing for me right now because I feel like my bookshelves are at capacity. So we're really in a one in one out policy on the bookshelves. I try to make my rule. I keep anything that I think I might want to reread in the future as research or in reference for my own writing. And then I keep anything that is a five star book just as like a physical memento of that reading experience. And then I also try to keep at least one book from any series I read also as like a memento of that era of my reading life. But I don't need like all of the acotar books. I just want one of them on my shelf as like, yes, I read this series. I try to hold on to things that I had a very special reading experience with. But other than that, I'm very unsentimental. And I'm trying to anyone who comes over to my house, I am like, take a tote bag of books. Like take so many books home with you.
- [75:48]
B
Yeah, you have to, I guess, if you're doing the one in one in, one out.
- [75:52]
A
I know. And I. I keep piles in my office of books. And I try not to do this before they come out because I get a lot of advanced copies. But I would say like once every other month or so, I'll put a stack of books on my stoop. And it truly is like, there's that episode of How I Met yout Mother where they have the Bermuda Triangle in front of their apartment where anything they put there just disappears immediately. And it is true. I don't know if it's just one person scooping up all the books and like taking them to sell them secondhand. Or if it's, I hope it's individual people who are like going through and being like, I'd like to read this, but yeah, I put it on my stoop and I'm like, New York City, take the wheel.
- [76:33]
B
That's good. Paying it forward in books.
- [76:35]
A
What about you? I feel like you've been hanging onto things because, you know, you have these bookshelves to fill. Do you get rid of anything?
- [76:41]
B
I've been. No, apparently is what I'm learning as I fill them in. But I'm being very ruthless with my organization of the book. So right now I'm only keeping on the shelves like my five star favorite books of all time, really special reading experience books. Then it's sort of like the tier below that where maybe it wasn't like a book that changed my life, but I, I really enjoyed it enough that I would like to keep it around. And then I have my TBR and the rest I am purging and giving away to friends, donating somewhere. And I'm probably donating like hundreds of books.
- [77:18]
A
Where are you donating them? Do you donate them to the library or are there like little free libraries in your area?
- [77:24]
B
There are a lot of little free libraries, but I don't know where I'm gonna donate them to yet. I do know my local library. They actually are having a book sale this weekend, so I might donate them there or somewhere else. The Goodwill near me takes books, something like that. But I have a lot of empty shelf space now. But I wanna grow into it, you know.
- [77:43]
A
Yeah.
- [77:43]
B
But it's been really interesting to see like what I feel attached to and what I don't and the things that are really special to me and why. And oh, I'm also keeping any books that are signed. Okay. So, yep, from friends or, you know, events, all of that. That's my system right now. And oh, I should mention, I don't really read on a Kindle that much now, but when I was reading on a Kindle. More, if I read something digitally and I absolutely loved it, I would go buy a physical copy.
- [78:10]
A
I try to do that as well. I'm not always very good at it, but I do try to make that my policy because back in kind of the earliest days of the podcast or before the podcast started, I was primarily reading on Kindle. And if you looked at my bookshelves, it looked like I was like a hyper literate person that stopped reading in 2012 because then I switched over to Kindle and I just didn't have physical copies of anything I'd read. And I was like, oh, I have to remedy this. And so, yeah, tried to make that my policy that if I really loved something, I would buy it a physical copy to keep.
- [78:41]
B
What's a book on your shelf that you've owned the longest?
- [78:44]
A
I mean, my mom passed away, so in a lot of ways, like, I'm the keeper of my own memories. And so I have a few childhood books on my shelves that are like, I'm looking right now, like, I have Wacky Wednesday, which is a Dr. Seuss book, which was a book I loved when I was a kid on my shelf. I have a few others too. I'm not close enough to the bookshelf to read them, but I see some board books on there.
- [79:08]
B
Oh, I love that.
- [79:09]
A
What about you? What's the oldest book you have?
- [79:11]
B
Probably my copy of John Keats poetry from high school with all my annotations.
- [79:18]
A
Oh, wow, that's kind of lovely.
- [79:20]
B
I revisit it often. Actually. That was like my most exciting placement on the bookshelf because I just love the idea that I can flip through it and see my handwriting from 17 year old me. Makes me very happy.
- [79:33]
A
Yeah, I don't have any books from high school, but I do have a few from college.
- [79:36]
B
Which ones did you have? Like a favorite college book? Sorry, this episode is.
- [79:40]
A
I mean, at this point we might just be talking to each other.
- [79:43]
B
People are like, how am I supposed to read when you guys won't fucking shut up?
- [79:47]
A
What was my favorite book in college? Oh, maybe to the Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf was a favorite, which I have on my shelf somewhere. I took a class in college on Don Quixote in Spanish and so I have my Spanish copy of Don Quixote on my shelves. I would have to go through. I don't remember what else is in there, but I definitely have some books from college.
- [80:10]
B
I love that Don Quixote in Spanish. Not what I would have guessed.
- [80:15]
A
Yeah, I think that was more for the accomplishment because Don Quixote is so long, it's probably five or six hundred pages that I'm like, I've conquered that. Not that Don Quixote is my favorite book.
- [80:26]
B
What if you just pulled that? And for our next book club pick, it's Don Quixote in its original Spanish.
- [80:34]
A
Do you feel book guilt about books you don't get to.
- [80:39]
B
I feel guilt only when it's someone I know and they've sent it to me and I haven't gotten to it yet. For whatever reason, I do feel guilt. And sometimes I feel guilt when a publicist emails me. I say, oh yes, can I have a physical copy? And then they email me like two months later. They're like, so what did you think? And I'm like, well, I found that. Haven't gotten to that yet. I do feel guilt about that. And sometimes I feel guilt just from an over consumption point of view. Cause I just have so many books that I've bought I haven't gotten to. And I think about the money I've spent. And though I never feel bad spending money on books at an independent bookstore, sometimes I'm like, this is a little excessive, Olivia. Like just tone it down a little. But I mean, if I'm going to waste money on something, it's probably the thing I want to waste money on. Better this than spending hundreds of dollars on ASOs every month as I did for many years.
- [81:29]
A
Yeah, I agree with that.
- [81:32]
B
How about you?
- [81:33]
A
I do feel a flavor of guilt, which maybe is very egotistical of like there are so many books I'm excited about and that I would enjoy and I want to support and like I don't get to all of them, you know, and even authors I really love, like there are my ride or die authors of like, I will read every book that I was. We were just talking before we got on the podcast that I'm so excited that Maria Semple has a new book coming out next year. And I'm like, I will read that book. But there's other authors who I really love. But I'm like, oh, I didn't get to that. And that makes me feel not guilty because it's not like I need to support them, but I'm like, oh, I know I would enjoy that. And I didn't get to it. Yeah, I do feel a weird amount of book guilt. But I will say I didn't even read this book. But this nugget has stuck with me. I heard somewhere about in Oliver Berkman's book Meditations for Mortals, which is the follow up to Time Management for Mortals, he says something about thinking about your TBR pile as a river, not a bucket and thinking about it as like a stream of things going by you and you can pick out a few, but you cannot grab all of them. And it's going by. It's not like a bucket where it's just getting fuller and fuller. And thinking about it that way has really helped me that is an interesting.
- [82:57]
B
Way to look at it. I do sometimes feel like I'm really sad to die one day because I'll just not be able to read anymore.
- [83:04]
A
Oh, yeah, that's very dark. But I. I understand it.
- [83:09]
B
I feel that way about writing, too. I'm like, oh, I really need to move because one day I'm going to be dead, and then I'm going to be like, I wish I wrote more books. I wish I read more books. Which is probably a sign that I should prioritize it whenever possible. But I get what you mean. Like, there's a sense of, like, oh, I wish I could read that and that and every book that I've ever been interested in, ever. Yeah, I think that actually helps me think about something that I would like to improve on in my reading life or change. And that's that. Well, we've talked about this before, but, like, I love tv, but I don't like the habit of watching tv. And I'm a lot like you. As you were saying, like, I don't. I don't usually sit down if I'm bored and turn something on just to turn something on. I usually have something in mind. I want to watch a specific show, a new episode or a movie or something. But I hate watching TV after dinner for no reason. And I'm just. It's so ingrained in my life. It's like from childhood. That's just what you did.
- [84:01]
A
Yeah.
- [84:02]
B
And I feel so much better when I use that time to read instead. And I could get in a couple more hours a day, and then I could get in, you know, a few more books a week or a month. And that's something I think I would like to work on. And every evening I look at Jake and I'm like, I'm getting rid of that tv. I'm getting rid of it. I'm putting it away to the third floor, where it shall only be used when it actually needs to be used. So, yeah, that's something I think about a lot. Is there anything like that you like reading habits or routines that you would want to change at all in your life?
- [84:38]
A
I would really like to release myself of whatever weird puritan capitalist guilt I have about reading during the day. And I would like to figure out putting my reading for work during work hours and keeping my evenings and weekends more for personal pleasure reading.
- [85:01]
B
It's a good plan. It's a good plan.
- [85:03]
A
Yeah.
- [85:03]
B
It's helped me a little bit.
- [85:05]
A
Yeah, I would like to do that. I hope this has been Fun.
- [85:10]
B
I don't think there's anything we didn't cover.
- [85:11]
A
It's a comprehensive one. If anyone wants to know anything about our reading lives.
- [85:15]
B
Yes. If you're not picturing us in vivid detail reading in our separate homes, then this has been a failure, I guess.
- [85:25]
A
Well, let's get into some N matter, which I think will be quick.
- [85:32]
B
What are you obsessed with?
- [85:34]
A
I don't really have anything.
- [85:35]
B
I don't really either. I'm sure we did just record though.
- [85:38]
A
I know. I'm sure that there is something, but I couldn't think of something that I'm truly obsessed with.
- [85:44]
B
I'm with you.
- [85:45]
A
What about reading? What have you read this week?
- [85:47]
B
I have not finished anything this week.
- [85:50]
A
Oh, this is gonna be real quick. End matter. I read Boomtown by Nic Stone, which is coming out October 14th, and she is going to be the guest on next week's episode. We're talking to her about this book and I think this is so interesting because she is a very well known YA author. She wrote Dear Martin, I think is her most acclaimed book, but she's written many. And this is her adult debut. And it is a mystery set in a strip club in Atlanta. And I was like, oh, this isn't just like a little adult. This isn't just like, oh, well, now the characters are 20 instead of 15. It's like, oh, no, now the characters are strippers. So I was really fascinated to kind of see this other side of her as a writer.
- [86:37]
B
The interview is very good.
- [86:39]
A
We already recorded it. I'm really excited to share the interview with you next week. But in the meantime, we also have our book club pick for this month, which is Heart the Lover by Lily King. And I've been getting so many DMs about this. I've been seeing in the Geneva Group. People are loving this book. I read it in July. I'm gonna read it again before book club. I think about it regularly.
- [87:03]
B
It's everywhere right now. Absolutely everywhere.
- [87:06]
A
I was really convinced it was gonna be a national book club pick, and so far it hasn't. But I wonder if it'll be Reesa's, which I don't think she's announced yet.
- [87:13]
B
Oh, probably.
- [87:15]
A
Well, it's ours. I cannot wait to discuss this book the last Wednesday of the month. If you would like to talk to us about your reading life or there are questions we somehow missed in this about our reading lives, talk to us in the BFF group, formerly known as the Geneva Group. Come join us in the Facebook group. Both are Under Bat on Paper podcast. We're on Instagram Batonpaper podcast. I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is beccafreeman.substack.com I'm on Instagram and.
- [87:46]
B
Substack at Olivia Mentor and you can pre order my novel Little One right now. And I would be so grateful if you did go do that. Bye Bye.