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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Olivia Mentor.
- [00:23]
A
And today is our June book club pick. And we're discussing Almost Life by Karen Millwood Hargrave.
- [00:29]
B
Yeah, I had a lot of fun putting this outline together and remembering what I loved about this book. And I can't wait to hear what you thought.
- [00:36]
A
Yeah, well, before we get into that, tell me your high from this week.
- [00:40]
B
My high is that I think for once, work timing has worked out with life timing. And I am so grateful that before I went to Ireland, I turned in my draft of book three, because when we got back, the renovation started in earnest and I really underestimated how loud that would be.
- [01:01]
A
Yeah, I can imagine.
- [01:04]
B
And so I've been really grateful to have a little bit of space between drafts where I can kind of get used to the new construction state of my home. And I don't have to be like, I was imagining if I was in the final stretches now. And I was, like, trying to finish this book while there was so much else going on. And I'm glad I'm not doing that. I'm glad that I can focus on other things like the podcast and fun partnerships we have and getting into the swing of things with the newsletter again and being creative there. And so, yeah, I'm just grateful to have this little second to reset.
- [01:43]
A
So do you know when you are getting your draft back or can we not tell because of the scammers? I think a scammer.
- [01:54]
B
That's a fair question. I was talking to someone at a book event the other day. They were like, what happened with that? What's their game? How did they know about the timing? And I'm like, I don't know. I've chosen to not think about it ever again because it makes me scared. But I am supposed to get notes back before the end of the month. So soon, probably next week or the week after.
- [02:15]
A
Okay, so they will overlap somewhat, the kitchen renovation and resuming work.
- [02:20]
B
Yeah, they'll overlap, but I think at least by then I'll be a little more used to it or I'll have, like, better strategies at place. Right now I'm like, it takes a second to get used to, like, people being at your house every day at 7am and when you used to have like an hour. Yeah, no, I'm. I wouldn't say I am thriving, but I think I'll have, you know, better systems in place. I'll, like, make a point to wake up at six so I have time to Read before everything kicks off. I'll go to the library more. I'll get that settled. So, yeah, I'm just glad I have this little moment to not be writing for a second.
- [02:56]
A
A sliver of peace.
- [02:58]
B
Yes.
- [02:59]
A
Well, work peace. Not actual peace. Yes.
- [03:02]
B
As I. I'm hoping that the recorder is not picking up the sound of drills. What is your high?
- [03:08]
A
My high is my new dining room chairs. So I got my dining room chairs custom upholstered, and I am so excited about how they turned out. I've had on Pinterest this fabric saved for years. I don't remember where I saw it, but I was just like, I love this fabric. And when I moved in here, I was, like, talking with my designer, Emma, and she had the idea that we should reupholster some chairs. The chairs are just from Wayfair. The seats were originally just white and, you know, make them a little more special. And so we ended up reupholstering them in this block print kind of olive green and blue and yellow fabric. And I am giddy about how they turned out. I love them so much.
- [04:00]
B
They look so cute. I saw them, and then I went to the upholsterer's Instagram, and I. I saw he did, like, a little, like, a cool, artsy video of them. He did, and it was very cool. They look great. And what a good reminder that, like, you can get something that's affordable and then spruce it up a little bit and make it your own.
- [04:20]
A
Yeah, it's really exciting. I am slightly afraid of them right now because I don't want to ruin them in any way. So I'm going to have somebody come and spray them with protectant along with, you know, some of the other furniture in my house. So I'm sitting on a towel on them right now, as if I'm not sure what I think is gonna. Like, I'm spontaneously going to pee my pants. They're just so lovely that I don't want anything to happen to them.
- [04:43]
B
I understand. I wouldn't even think of spraying them, so that's really smart. But I totally understand. They're really, really beautiful. Thank you.
- [04:50]
A
Well, what about on the low side?
- [04:52]
B
My low? I guess I kind of touched on it. I'm not stressed out about the renovation in any way. I am deeply overstimulated by the amount of noise and foot traffic and just things happening all the time for. For about eight hours a day. So, like I said, I'm just gonna create better systems and habits. So I don't feel that way. But I'm pretty sensitive to noise and it's, you know, it's like bone crunching nails on chalkboard sounds constantly. So that's not great. But. But I can't complain. Cause they're making great progress and that is what is most important. So yes, that's where I am.
- [05:36]
A
Okay.
- [05:37]
B
But it's a low within a high. Yep. You know, it's all good things.
- [05:40]
A
Yep.
- [05:42]
B
Tell me your low.
- [05:43]
A
I am feeling deeply overwhelmed by my to do list. Do you know that feeling when you come back from vacation and you're on the plane and you're making your list and you just have the world's biggest case of Sunday scaries regardless of if it's Sunday? Yep, I made my list and I've been working my way through it all week since I've been back. And I feel like I cannot make headway. The minute I check things off, new things get added to it. Like I just feel like I owe everyone things. I am behind on everything I need to do. I am not thriving work or to do list wise at the moment.
- [06:28]
B
You just got back. I mean you only got back a few days ago. So maybe it takes about a week to sort of reach an equilibrium state.
- [06:36]
A
Maybe. I'm really excited for this weekend because I feel like it's a three day weekend with Juneteenth and I don't think that people will be putting more stuff on it. So, you know, hopefully I can start to chip away at the list I have and get into a better place. But yeah, I just am feeling crushed under the weight of my to do list right now in a way that I don't feel like I can quite get back into the saddle writing wise because I just have 8 million one off things spinning around like flies in my head all the time.
- [07:08]
B
Yeah. I was gonna ask you if this includes book stuff or if it's getting in the way of book stuff.
- [07:13]
A
It's getting in the way. So right now one of those flies is just guilt about not getting back to the book yet. I did a little bit yesterday and today I was like, oh, I owe this newsletter draft. I gotta write this right now. I haven't had a chance to write yet and I don't know, it's 3:30. So by the time we're done and I finish everything I have to do, I don't know that writing's happening today.
- [07:38]
B
Yeah, that's tough. I feel like when we record at three and we're done usually around five or even after five, I just, it's done. The day is done for me. Maybe I'll send some emails, but the writing is not happening. Yeah, well, I hope you have some days to just power through everything, get back to a more normal schedule.
- [07:58]
A
I hope that too. Well, let's get into this book.
- [08:03]
B
Yes, so I will read the summary of this book. Almost Life centers around Lore and Erika. Erica is a college student from England. When she meets Laure, who is French and they meet in Paris during the summer of 1978. Queen quickly they fall in love. But when Erica goes back to England at the end of the summer, their connection is challenged. Despite falling in love with other people, other marriages, addiction and more, they manage to stay in each other's lives for decades. But at what cost?
- [08:33]
A
Well, let's take a quick ad break and then we can discuss this book.
- [08:42]
B
This episode is sponsored by Caraway Home. As you can probably tell, I spend a lot of time thinking about kitchen organization lately. And last night I actually fell asleep while trying to decide which drawers of the new cabinet will hold what items. There is just something about a clean, organized kitchen that really feels like giving your brain a massage. And it makes me more likely to cook from scratch or to make the most of leftovers instead of ordering in or going out to eat. And Caraway makes it easier to keep food prepped or organized and fresh.
- [09:16]
A
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- [09:39]
B
Caraway is in over 2.5 million homes and and over 155,000 people have rated their caraway kitchen items five stars. Now it's time to try it for yourself. Right now you can save up to $230 on the 12 piece cookware set versus buying the products individually. Plus if you want to include their fan favorite minis duo, you can save up to $350. Visit CarawayHome.com BoP to take an additional 10% off using code Bop on your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com bop or use code Bop at checkout. Well Becca, this was my pick. Yes, and I don't know what you thought of it at all, so let me in to your brain. How did it work for you?
- [10:34]
A
So I read this and there were certain things about it that I absolutely loved. So I loved the beginning setup of the meeting and falling in love in Paris. I was really touched by the Michelle plotline having AIDS and Lahr and her friends caring for him. I thought that was incredibly tragic and in some ways beautiful, the caretaking among found family. But I found myself liking the book less and less as it went on. And you have a question about this in the outline that kind of speaks to this as well. So I think that I maybe never fully bought into the fact that they were meant to be together and maybe they weren't, and that was the point. But my romance lover brain wanted them to be meant to be. And I just never fully bought into that. And so. And I was a little frustrated by some of the back and forth and some of the cheating. I'm not usually that puritanical about cheating, but I was. I think the repetition of it really started to get to me. So I netted out as a like but not a love on this book.
- [11:47]
B
Okay, that's definitely fair. You know, I agree with pretty much all of what you just said, which is interesting because I still loved it, but I totally. I hear you. Like, I think for me also, it kind of lost a little bit of steam towards the end, but I still. And I think I've mentioned this before, but. And we'll probably talk about this more towards the end when we discuss the ending. But there is a sort of like, round and round quality to the book that can be a little hard, I think. But I also loved the same things you loved as well. Paris, especially the Michel plotline. Just wonderful.
- [12:28]
A
Well, tell me why you chose this book. Why did you want to talk about this? Why did you want our listeners to read this along with us?
- [12:34]
B
I mean, selfishly, I just couldn't remember a time where I had started reading a book and I was so in it immediately. Like, I felt as if I read that first page and I was sitting on the steps with them in that scene. And I couldn't recall a time that I had been that drawn into a story. And as you said, the whole Paris section is just so atmospheric, which of course I'm a sucker for. But I also think as I got deeper into it, there are so many different themes and struggles and interesting characterizations that I just really wanted to discuss with you and to hear everyone else's thoughts on. I also think I know you love romance. This is maybe a different sort of romance that I loved. And I thought talking about it, especially in comparison with. With into the Blue, which we did last month, could be kind of interesting because I think there are some very baseline parallels yet. You get two completely different reading experiences, to say the least. But yeah, I think those are some of the reasons. And I think also I knew that it is a divisive book in some ways, and I think that makes for a great conversation.
- [13:49]
A
It was funny. As I was reading it, I could completely see some glimmers of oh yes, this is an Olivia mentor book. And there were certain aspects of it that really reminded me of One Day, which. Did you read the book of One Day or only watch the TV adaptation?
- [14:05]
B
Only the TV adaptation.
- [14:07]
A
Okay. But I know you absolutely loved that. The reboot, the new one. And then also a lot of it reminded me of Talking at Night by Claire Daverly.
- [14:16]
B
Yes, I definitely had feelings and memories of when I read Talking at Night while reading this too. Like, it gave me that same feeling, feeling of being swept up. I had to laugh at myself because I was listening to an interview with this author and she said that there were three things that inspired this book. One was listening to Good Luck Babe by Chapel Roan on Repeat. The second was Past Lives, the Movie, and the third was the One Day adaptation. So you were right on the money. But I laughed because all three things are things that I have been individually obsessed with. And so I'm like, okay, this was created for me, I guess.
- [14:57]
A
Well, wait, did you listen to the interview on the Women's Prize podcast?
- [15:02]
B
Yes. Did you watch it on YouTube? Because I've never seen such soothing lighting and oh my gosh, no.
- [15:09]
A
I only listened to the introduction part because then she went on to recommend books and I was looking for more context and background on the book. But one thing I was really surprised by was that it seems like this author. Well, first of all, this author is incredibly prolific. I thought that this was perhaps a debut. And when I googled it, they have an incredibly deep back catalog. Although it's only their second adult book, they've written many books. She was calling it children's fiction on the podcast, but I don't know if it's actually children's fiction or it's what we would call ya. Because she's British. I was unclear about, like, what the age guidelines were for her earlier books, but she has not done a lot of press about this book. I could not find her talking about it very much. And I really, I was like, oh, are you a, like one of those mysterious writers who doesn't give interviews or we're just people not interested. I was so curious.
- [16:06]
B
Yeah, I had the same thought. And I mean, this was a book of the month pick. Yeah, I don't think it's, you know, like the splashiest publication ever, but I've definitely seen it around. As I said, I first heard about this book because there were people talking about it in the Facebook group saying how much they loved it. And this was either around when it came out or maybe even months before. But yeah, I'm not sure if she just doesn't give that many interviews. I was able to find one podcast, but I was like one. She has the most beautiful speaking voice ever. An accent like someone. And of course, as a talented writer, I'm like someone interview her more. Or maybe she just is very private.
- [16:44]
A
Yeah, maybe she's reclusive. Maybe she's just a mysterious lady, which you and I could never understand as I don't consider myself particularly mysterious. Speaking of mysterious.
- [16:53]
B
No, I mean, it's admirable. I mean, same. I'm right there with you. There's way too much of me to be seen at all times online. But I want to know more about her because I read a very inspiring like 6 year old interview with her on substack or not 6 years old maybe, but a few years old definitely predating this book. And she just had such a fascinating things to say about writing and the writing process. And I find authors who write between genres and age ranges just really, really interesting.
- [17:27]
A
Same.
- [17:28]
B
Do you think this book falls into the literary romance trend you've been talking more about?
- [17:34]
A
Oh yeah, absolutely. This definitely feels like literary romance to me. I feel like in addition to the writing of a literary romance, just kind of, you know, a lyrical quality to the prose, more attention to language. I feel like literary romance is not beholden to the happily ever after requirement or happily for now that a contemporary romance has. So this definitely fit the bill for me. Can I tell you, I wish I had written this down where I heard this quote, but in the last week I read somewhere somebody saying that in highbrow books the sex is bad and in lowbrow books the sex is good. But in this case the sex was good but they, they weren't meant to be together. And I was like, oh, that's a very interesting distinction of kind of what makes a literary romance.
- [18:27]
B
Yes, that's so funny. I thought the, the sex scenes were very well written as well in this book.
- [18:32]
A
It was sexy sex between two people who maybe didn't belong together.
- [18:36]
B
Yes. Yes. Although I really, I was very surprised how it ended even though when I look back, I'm like, oh, okay, this makes sense, but we'll get there. But speaking of romance. So as I said, I read this and I think right after, soon after, what is time? I can't even remember. But I think after this, I read into the Blue and there are sort of some parallels. Like, you have this decade spanning romance. You have characters really getting in their own way and, like, communicating poorly and causing chaos, pushing people away for reasons they may or may not understand. Then there's this idea of, like, faded love. There's even, like the subplot lines about alcoholism and then illness, sickness and death. So they're obviously vastly different. But if you had to compare them, like, one is a love for you, the other's alike. And I think they flip flopped for me. Does that come down to the happy ending of it all? Is it something else? Are they too different to compare in your mind?
- [19:39]
A
You know, I hadn't thought about this comparison until I saw this in the outline. That was not one of the books I was thinking about while I was reading this. I said I was thinking of you with one day and talking at night, but there were a couple others that it really reminded me of too. So I was not thinking of them in tandem, although I totally see what you mean. I think that what made into the Blue work better for me was the sense of fadedness. Like, I truly believed that AJ and Noah were meant to be together versus with Lara and Erica in the first section. I was totally into them as a couple, but after that, I was never convinced that they should be together. And one book that I was thinking of as I was reading this was Broken country by Claire Leslie Hall. And the way that that book is translated, structured, is dual timeline. So you're getting both the past and the present at the same time versus this one. And also into the Blue are just told on a straightforward timeline. And with Broken country, you kind of get the sense that there's something missing in the adult version of the narrator's life that is then fulfilled by kind of the past or by this person from her past versus I didn't have any sense of that with Lahr and Erica. And in fact, there was this moment at the very end, if you'll allow me to, like, skip ahead for a second, where Erica says, I miss you to Laur, and then Laura says back to her, you miss being young. And I felt like that encapsulated the entire book so much. It was like what they represented to each other was this very burning hot young love. But it was not their end game versus with AJ And Noah. Like, I was convinced it was their end game.
- [21:38]
B
Yeah. Yeah, that's such a good point. And I think I. I agree with you. It was a strange experience while reading because in that first section, like you said, I really was like, oh, these people are meant to be. And letting go of that, I think, was hard for me. And maybe is why towards the end, I too, felt like by the time I got to the end, I felt like it was maybe the weakest part of the story in some ways. However, I listened to another interview with this author, and something she said that really struck me was that it's as much about their not love story as it is their love story. Like, it's as much about who they are without each other, in spite of each other and because of each other as it is just about them as people. And I think that is maybe the thing that you don't. Or. As a reader, I didn't understand in the first section, and then I felt like I said I had trouble sort of accepting. But I think it's also why some of the character work is so, in my opinion, impeccable in this book. And I think one thread that's present in into the Blue and this book is that alcoholism is present both in the family and in one of the characters. And I think we both said it maybe didn't so much work for us in into the Blue, but in this book, I felt it was so fully rendered. Like, the addiction, the recovery after it, I just thought it was so. So well done, and it spoke to who Laura was as a character so fully. I don't know if you felt that as well.
- [23:18]
A
No, I totally agree with you that it was much more fully baked here. And I thought that, you know, what plotline did not totally work for me was the woman who was controlling her, that kind of relationship where she got isolated from her friends while it was happening. I was like, I don't like this, but, you know, I don't like when bad things happen to characters in books anyway. But then afterwards, I was like, I don't know that that totally had a point other than getting her sober. And that didn't feel like the only way she could have gotten sober. But okay, that was just an aside. But between the alcohol addiction and then also her relationship with Michelle and Michelle's disease, I felt like I could so clearly understand Lore's trauma and kind of like where. Where things were coming from. Like, I. I felt so clear on her wounds. And I felt less clear on Erica's, which is. You know, I know we're talking about the comparison to into the Blue, but I really felt like Laura was very well fleshed out. And I agree with you that the alcohol plot line was, like. It was very hard to read, but it was very well done.
- [24:21]
B
Yeah. This is a question I had later in the outline, but when I was reading it, I really felt like, okay, this is about these two main characters, and it's their story shared, and I think they probably get equal page time. But looking back on it, reflecting on it, I really feel like this is maybe Laura's story and not Erica's in a way. Or she came off as more of the hero, if there is one, I guess. Or it just felt like the story was weighted towards her emotionally.
- [24:55]
A
I can see what you mean. I wonder if some of that is because Laura's on an upward trajectory through the book, so she's getting through things like her struggles happen earlier in the book versus Erica's on a downward trajectory in the book. So as we get closer to the end, she's more lost than she's ever been.
- [25:16]
B
That's such a good point.
- [25:18]
A
But I did feel like there was something about Erica that didn't fully click for me. And I'm curious how you feel about this, because there was a lot of discussion of body image throughout the book. And one thing that I. I just couldn't quite get over was it was talking about that she was in a bigger body. It was talking about that she was insecure about her body. But the very first time that we meet her, she's being chased by a man in sacre corps, and she's talking about all the male attention she gets and how everywhere she goes, there are men kind of like, whistling at her or trying to flirt with her. So it's clear that she's sexually desirable, whether that's in a fetish way or some way that she's not comfortable with, or she just doesn't believe her own beauty. But, like, that felt like such a basis. Like, her insecurity about her appearance felt so core to some of her behaviors. But I was like, I just don't know if I buy this.
- [26:13]
B
Yeah, I can see how you would think that. I mean, I think body dysmorphia is a real thing.
- [26:18]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [26:19]
B
And I think the two things can exist. Like that she was viewed as largely conventionally attractive and still had, you know, really debilitating insecurities, I think, especially like I don't really remember if this is reflected in the book, but I think there is a stereotype of, like, French women being very, very, very small, like, and not necessarily voluptuous or curvy. And so maybe it was, like, emphasized because she was in that setting. I don't know. But I do think that there was a bit of a disconnect with. As someone that has, like, also been affected by my own securities my whole life, there was something about it that felt. I don't know, that felt this kind of surface level, even though, of course, that's what it is in some ways, but. But it just didn't seem to connect with who she was in a way that affected me or felt emotional. I don't know. I see what you're saying. It's hard for me to put into words exactly why it didn't work for me, but it just didn't feel as real.
- [27:26]
A
Yes. And I think also, comparatively to the very real struggles that Laur went through.
- [27:33]
B
Yes.
- [27:33]
A
Both with her father's alcoholism, with being out and gay in the 70s, with her own alcoholism, with losing Michel to AIDS. Like, there was, like, almost like a frivolousness or a brattiness to some of Erica's character.
- [27:52]
B
Yes. I didn't think of this until now, but something I heard the author say is that Erica is kind of aimless. Like, she doesn't have this big. She doesn't feel everything like Laura feels. She doesn't have these big, deep passions, and she doesn't know what her thing is. And maybe even her insecurities are a little like that. Like, they're kind of rootless and.
- [28:16]
A
Oh, that's an interesting way to put it.
- [28:19]
B
And she doesn't even really understand them. So as the reader, you're kind of feeling that as well, maybe, because that is how she is with kind of everything. It's kind of like, surface level constantly. Whereas Laura is, like, in the deepest, darkest emotions, experiences, pain, tossed people so often.
- [28:37]
A
Well, the other thing that I was feeling through this book, I feel like I'm giving this fake person a really hard time right now
- [28:46]
B
is, well, they're both very unlikable in their own ways.
- [28:49]
A
Both very unlikable. But one thing that I don't think I ever fully understood going back to the fadedness of the relationship and whether these characters belong together, is I think I fully understood what Erica liked about Lore. There was this brashness to Lore. She was, like, unconventional. She didn't care what other people thought. She was very secure in herself to Both be gay and to be very opinionated across everything. She kind of represented everything Erica was not. But then on the flip side, I don't know that I could tell you what Lore liked about Erica outside of their sexual connection, because it seemed like a lot of times she was annoyed by her. Both in the youngest timeline, when they first meet, she found her kind of frivolous and, like, there was a oh, how cute, like, you're so untested type energy. And, like, you know, maybe she liked that she could pontificate, that she could teach her things, but, you know, and then in the older timelines, it seemed like she straight up didn't like Erica as a person many times.
- [29:58]
B
Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. The more I reflect on it, the more I really think that this wasn't a story about two people who were meant to be together and tragically could not be. This was a story about two people who were meant to be together for a summer, and that was it. And what do you do with that moving forward? And I think, as you were saying, I think with Erica, she never grew enough to really understand herself beyond it in some way, whereas I feel like Laura did.
- [30:30]
A
Yeah, I kind of expected the book to be more about Erica grappling with her inability to step outside of convention and to be gay, but it didn't feel a lot of times, even in her inner monologue, that that was truly even what she wanted. And maybe to your point earlier, she doesn't know what she wants. She's hiding it from herself. But I expected that to be a lot more of the thrust of the later chapters in the book of, like, she's meant to be with Lore, but she's not willing to come out. But I was like. I don't. I was like, but I'm not convinced that you're meant to be with Lore. I actually thought, as it was happening, I really thought that the assault that happened at the nightclub was going to be much more pivotal to the rest of the book as it was happening. And I thought that maybe that was going to scare Erica into the closet more and it was going to turn Lore into more of a crusader for gay rights. And I thought that was going to be, like, a key friction point in the book. And it didn't ever feel that way to me.
- [31:38]
B
Yeah, I felt about that. Kind of how I felt about the woman who is controlling and abusive to Laura. Like, these big, huge things happen, but we kind of move on to the next big thing.
- [31:51]
A
To be honest, I think that One felt more earned in the book just to show what it meant to be an out lesbian or a queer person in general in that time period. Like, I understood why it was there more so than the woman who was kind of, like, controlling lore. I was like, huh?
- [32:09]
B
Mm. This book spans from 1978 to 2013, which is, like, such a huge swath of time.
- [32:15]
A
Yeah.
- [32:15]
B
And I think one thing it does really well is to show the evolution of what it meant to be gay and out or closeted or somewhere in between in Paris, but also beyond throughout each of those decades. And I think what's really kind of cool about how the author did it is that it would have been so easy to show that only through the relationship of the two main women. But instead, I think you really see it through so many of Laura's other friendships and relationships, and especially with Michel and everything that happened and him, you know, dying of AIDS and the way she caretakes for him. And I think even her discussion with her father and, like, and all of that just. It just. It was unexpected for me. And I thought it was so well done to show, like, an entire world, not just these two people, but these two people within it.
- [33:13]
A
Did you have a sense of. Because they were separated in decent swaths of the book, did you have a sense of, like, when they were separated? Did you enjoy reading one character's chapters more than the other?
- [33:27]
B
I can't say that I enjoyed one more than the other or I had that feeling while reading. I. Looking back, I am very much. Like I said, this is Laura's story. I like her more. I like hearing about her more. And Erica is just so kind of blob, like, and lost in some ways that it's, like, hard to really connect with her. But I can't say that during it, I was like, bring me back to this narrative. I'm done with it. How do you feel about that?
- [33:54]
A
No, I agree with you. I didn't dislike Erica's sections for as much grief as I'm giving this character. I actually really loved the section where she is getting her MFA and she's falling in love with Ant. And I also liked, you know, that party when they go to his estate home and she's meeting all of his school friends and she's not feeling good enough, but he's like, I've been so stupid. I should have kissed you. I loved that section. Likewise, I really love. Similar to what you were saying, I really loved the exploration of Lar's queer friend group and kind of what that meant and kind of this found family element of them being there for each other. So no, for as much grief as I just gave Erica, I didn't dislike her sections until the end. I didn't like her final or I guess maybe second to final section when she'd had some kind of mysterious breakdown that I didn't quite feel like was explained. I was waiting to see if that was gonna be a reveal of some sort, but it was more so. I was like, does she have depression? Did she have. I was like, what's happening? It was clearly brought on by her miscarriage, but I was like unclear what was happening. And not that that's unrealistic, but it was difficult to see her be on that downward trajectory.
- [35:19]
B
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think in a lot of instances it was hard to see her as a character somehow, which again, maybe that's the point. But I do have more questions for you about Ant, which we will get to in a minute. But first let's take an ad break. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. As we talked about in our most recent three Things episode, we both love Cozy Earth's bamboo sheet set. These sheets are smooth and cooling while still feeling comforting and of course cozy.
- [35:54]
A
I've had my sheet sets for a few years now and I really think they just get better and better, AKA softer and softer the more you wash them. And I've also really gotten into Cozy Earth's sleep dresses, which is basically just a longer oversized T shirt that's made out of their incredibly soft fabric. So my whole sleep situation is very cozy earthified right now. And I love that Cozy Earth stands behind everything they make. They have a 100 night sleep trial on the sheets and a lifetime warranty on the clothing and hassle free returns if anything isn't quite right.
- [36:29]
B
And Cozy Earth has so much beyond bedding. I feel like men's clothing in particular is really hard to shop for, but Cozy Earth has the best men's basics according to Jake, who is a man, so take his word for it. Their pants are classic and comfortable while still looking put together. And same thing with their everyday polo, so definitely check those out. If you have a man in your life that needs clothing, summer should feel easy for everyone in the house. Cozyearth's bamboo sheet set, everywhere pant and everyday polo are designed to keep him cool, comfortable and actually relaxed all summer long. Dad lives here. Head to cozyearth.com and use our code BOP for an exclusive 20% off. That's code BOP for an exclusive 20 percent off. And if you see a post purchase survey mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. This episode is sponsored by Skims, makers of my favorite bras of all time and Becca's favorite underwear. I am also a new fan of their cotton ribbed T shirts which are the perfect shape, style, fit, fabric, everything. I was just wearing one earlier and I love them as a new basic layering piece. I also recently got their pointelle lace boy shorts and they are so cute I can't even tell you. I was delighted when I opened the package and they're still comfortable enough for everyday wear or even sleeping in, which is high praise in my book.
- [37:51]
A
How did I miss these? I haven't seen the pointelle fabric I have to look after we record, but as Olivia mentioned, I've been a longtime fan of the Fits everybody thongs. But more recently I added a few pairs of their everyday cotton undies to my collection because I know experts recommend that you sleep in cotton underwear for breathability. And not surprisingly, these are also so great, so comfortable.
- [38:14]
B
Shop everyday cotton and all of our favorite bras and underwear@skims.com and after you place your order be sure to let them know that we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our Show Bad on Paper in the drop down menu that follows. So we touched at this at the top, but if there was anything that I struggled with when it came to this book, it was how circular it felt at times. You know, they would have an issue, break up, get back together, sort of, but not really. And it just felt at a certain point very frustrating and not satisfying. So it seems like you felt that as well. I did.
- [39:01]
A
I felt more frustrated with the third and fourth times when Erica has children than with the earlier times. Like I was with them wholly in the first section. I was still with them when Erica went back to Paris with Donna. I was with them when Erica went back to Paris after getting married and I was fine with the affair that they were having. I was like, you married a man, you're now realizing you made a mistake, that these feelings are still here. And then I was like, no, we've like gone too many rounds here. And I was really frustrated. Although it ended up being explained, I was really frustrated at the time that Ant was the one to bring Lore back into the fold. And I was like, this is pretty patently unrealistic. Like that he met Lord, why are they going to her house? I was so angry as I was reading it, but then that was explained that he sought her out on purpose. And then I was like, oh, okay, this makes more sense. I don't know why Erica didn't have more questions, but it did square to me, the reader. And then by the last time, I was horrifically angry. And specifically, I told you that quote that I loved, when Erica says, I miss you, and Laura says, you miss being young. And then they fudged. Anyway, I was so mad at Lore because it really felt like Lore understood what was happening, and then she didn't. And I was so angry by that point, I was like, you two are destructive to each other. Like, you not only do not belong together romantically, like, you should not be in the same room.
- [40:41]
B
Yeah, I'm with you. I did not like that last scene. And it just felt bad to read for so many reasons. But you could also tell that they kind of felt bad, and it was just. It was just kind of ugly. And I think as a reader, instinctually, you almost expect it to be the opposite. And so when it's not, it's really unsettling. But, you know, the more that I think about it now, thinking that past lives was inspiration for this, it makes more and more sense to me when I think about the ending. Because I think there is a narrative in most of literature and love stories that, like, the one that got away is the one. And I don't think that is necessarily the case. And in fact, I think that thought can be toxic to good things that are already right in front of you or to even just like, knowing yourself, because it's so much fantasy.
- [41:40]
A
That's such a good point about it being corrosive as an idea to the people living it.
- [41:45]
B
Yeah. The more I think about this in context of past lives, which I don't want to spoil as well, but it just makes sense because I think in a weird way, I was reading the whole book and I was thinking like, oh, here are these. These people, this almost life and this romanticizing of it. And in fact, it's kind of like that's not the best thing, maybe. So it's not like a neat romance, but maybe that's why I loved it.
- [42:11]
A
Talk to me about Ant. I wanted to hear what you felt about the man that Erica did marry. And were you feeling bad for him as she was cheating on him multiple times? Do you feel like he deserved it? Like, how. How are you feeling about Ant's character?
- [42:29]
B
I have complicated feelings about his character. So when I was reading, I felt like there was a concerted effort to not make him Very likable to kind of make him straddle this line between, oh, he's kind of charming to like, oh, he's kind of boring to, oh, he's nice. Oh, he's not. He's like this annoying, tortured male author, you know. And because of that, I felt like we were gearing up for her to leave him. And because, like, as a reader, I didn't feel very bad for him. Did you feel bad for him?
- [43:03]
A
I did. I didn't find him as off putting as I think I would have needed to to justify the amount of cheating. Again, the first time when she goes back to Paris after they were married, I was fine with it. Like, I was like, he's traveling so much. His needs have taken precedent in this marriage. Maybe you've realized that you don't even want to be with a man. Like, I had a lot of grace for Erica at that point, but the longer it went, like, the less I had for it. And oftentimes, even when he acted poorly, it was explained like he was being a dick about not wanting to clean the house while the women went off to go to the Monet Gardens. But then he ultimately did it. He did clean up and he was making dinner when they got back. Or, you know, he was unpleasant to be around. Both. It was explained that he had a bad writing day. And then, you know, later it was explained that he knew that Erica still loved Lore and he was being a bear that whole trip because he was jealous. Like, I just. I didn't feel totally unsold on him that I was like, yeah, cheat on him. Fuck him up. And there was this moment in the last section where Erica said, yeah, I've been pretty sure that ants having affairs anyway. And I was like, that just felt so thrown in. Like, I wish there was, like, evidence of that. I didn't feel like he was bad enough to deserve how she treated him.
- [44:28]
B
Yeah, I agree with you. The more I think about him, the more I think about the whole book, everyone. It exists in this really gray area, you know, it's like, did Erica have justification to be a little bit unsatisfied or unhappy? Sure, maybe. But did she have justification to cheat? Probably not. And I think I. I ultimately appreciated, like, how messy it all was. Like, there is no clear moral high ground in any of this.
- [44:58]
A
I think I found the relationship between Ant and Erica and their aspirations as writers to be really interesting too, because, you know, they start off on equal playing field that I think it's set up that they're supposed to be, like, the two best writers in this, albeit very small writing program. And then he goes on to write his books to great acclaim. And who knows how much of that is any inherent sexism of the time or that could still exist today, that he's a man. And Erica both struggles to produce writing, but then when she does produce her book, it's to, like, a much smaller deal, much less fanfare. And how him traveling and kind of like being the star in their relationship felt for her. I just. I thought that plotline was very interesting. Absent anything having to do with Lore, like, that dynamic. It really reminds me of, you know, how much I love the show the Diplomat with Keri Russell.
- [45:55]
B
Oh, yeah. Yes. Oh, my gosh, you're so right.
- [45:58]
A
Where it's like, two people in the same career, and one of them's maybe overshot the other. And, like, what does that mean in a marriage?
- [46:06]
B
Whenever. I mean, it's rare, but whenever I have met couples who are both published authors, are both pursuing that, I always think, God bless you. Couldn't be me. I feel like it would be so. It could be the best, most amazing thing, I think. But, my God, it has to be so complicated.
- [46:22]
A
Yeah.
- [46:23]
B
And hard at times, for sure. But, yeah, I loved that as well. I wasn't expecting that little subplot, and I really enjoyed it.
- [46:31]
A
Yeah.
- [46:32]
B
Again, I find I'm discovering a lot in the reflection of this book. But at the time, reading the ending really shocked me with how bleak it was in so many ways. I think in some ways, Lore dying. And I was reading a review where they said that the portrayal of death was very beautiful in a way, and I agree with that. I thought it was really moving without being overdone, but there's no real resolution. I don't know. How did you feel about the ending?
- [47:03]
A
I mean, I was shocked as I was reading it that all of a sudden it went from we're having sex in the water to Laura's dying. It felt like a really hard turn. It was really funny because I feel like we're really dancing around trying to not spoil other books in this episode. But in my Book Matchmaker series that I do on my newsletter, somebody had submitted a query that was looking for books like the Girl who Never read Noam Chomsky that follows a woman from her college days to her deathbed. When I got that query in my head, I was kind of like, good luck, babe. Like, I can't think of any other books like that. And as I was reading this, I was like, oh, Found one. But I found it so jarring that Laura died. And I. I was wondering if she was going to die too. Like, I was like, are you going to go there? And the author did. And I think that in retrospect, I do like the choice of Laura dying because I liked Erica discovering that Laura had been dead for three years without her knowing. I found that to be really powerful, and I found that to be a very powerful end cap on the story where it was like, it really did go from, you are the object of my obsession to, you are somebody in my past.
- [48:26]
B
Yeah.
- [48:27]
A
And I think not knowing somebody is dead for three years is, like, maybe the ultimate reflection of that. They are not somebody who's very present in your life. So I do think it was a really powerful way to end the book, but very jarring to read. How did you feel?
- [48:43]
B
I also felt it was very jarring, and I do remember having a reaction of like, oh, really? Like, are we really going to go to the darkest possible place here? But I think, as you said, like, it was a fitting end cap to the story and one of the parts of it that really moved me. And I don't think I'm quoting this exactly, but something Lore said was like, I forgive you preemptively for not coming. I thought it really showed the arc of Laura's whole life and that, like, she moved through this great love and found things beyond it and found herself beyond it. And I don't know if really the same could be said for Erica. I've read that a lot of people cried at the ending. I didn't. But that was the only point that I did tear up. That that got me.
- [49:34]
A
I didn't cry either. I did cry in some of the Michelle scenes. That was very emotionally powerful to me, but I didn't cry at the ending at all.
- [49:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think those scenes were very tough, but, like, so emotionally resonant and true. And that was just such a well developed side character. It didn't even feel like a side character, you know, and that is so tough to do, especially when you're dealing with really heavy subject matter that you want to make sure you are respectful of, you know, and it doesn't feel like a throwaway. So hats off to the author there.
- [50:14]
A
The other thing I was left with in this book that we haven't discussed was a deep urge to go see Monet's house.
- [50:23]
B
Oh. Oh, yes. I thought the same thing. I thought the same thing. Oh, wait, you haven't been.
- [50:30]
A
No, I haven't. Been. You know, the other thing we haven't talked about is we didn't talk about Laur becoming an author. I really liked that, too.
- [50:38]
B
Oh, yes, yes, yes. I forgot about that. You're so right.
- [50:42]
A
Speaking about Ant and Erica's kind of professional jealousy, I thought it was so interesting that Laura became an author. And I felt like it was fitting. It didn't feel contrived in any way. And I loved. I loved the moment after her and Barbara got in that fight. And she went and found the bookstore that Michelle had mentioned to her all those years ago. And she was in the bookstore and she found this book of poetry about aids. And she saw her own book. Like, that whole scene was very powerful to me as well.
- [51:09]
B
Yeah. And I guess that also is kind of. It kind of speaks to this idea that maybe it sort of is Laura's story, you know, like, it kind of. I don't know, it just feels more like hers to me in some way.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah, I agree at the ending.
- [51:24]
B
It does.
- [51:25]
A
I want to say, like you already theorized. I want to say that I do think they got somewhat equal page space, though. But it did feel like Lore was the dominant character in some way. Which is funny, because I think I've read writing advice that says that the dominant character, even in a multi POV book, is the one whose POV you get first. Whose POV do you get first in this? I was tempted to say it was Erica's going into the church. So it seems like the first two paragraphs of the book are told in omniscient. They are not directly in either character's pov.
- [52:05]
B
Okay.
- [52:05]
A
It is told in they. They met on the steps of Soccer Corps beneath a sky of the most fierce and unerring blue. So without variation or hesitation, it was as though a painter had brushed cerulean across the horizons. On and on and on. And then that section ends by saying each will remember it differently. But on this fact, they agree it was Erica who smiled first and said, and then it goes into Laura's pov. I did not clock this at all as I was reading it, but the first does seem omniscient. And then you go to Lore.
- [52:39]
B
I love. I love starting there. That's so interesting, too, because there's something about this idea of, like, an almost life in this book where you think it's like, about the life you didn't live, but it's almost like Lore is like living Erica's almost life, or vice versa. It's like how you move through the one life you have provides these two different experiences too. And like it's sliding doors in that way.
- [53:05]
A
It's also somewhat the way that rumination deprives you of your actual life. Yes, because in different places, you know, certainly when Lore is in the depths of her kind of like rock bottom, and then Erica, certainly in the later sections, are both so heavily focused on the other person and what they don't have that they could both be having theoretically, like perfectly good lives with other partners that are fulfilling in many ways. But like they are too focused on the other.
- [53:41]
B
Mm. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm glad you liked this. I'm glad I loved this.
- [53:48]
A
It was a very good discussion book to your point of picking it.
- [53:53]
B
There's a lot of tough gray areas and like, like I said, that's kind of the best stuff for discussion sometimes. But I'm so curious to hear what everyone in the Facebook group and beyond has to say. So we'll be sure to post a discussion thread about this one shall we
- [54:08]
A
take another ad break before getting into some ed matter?
- [54:11]
B
We shall. This episode is sponsored by Frippery, an online and brick and mortar vintage store in the Berkshires. Frippery, which is the French word for that's fitting, I guess, is the French word for secondhand clothing, was started in 2025 by Beth Conkey, who happens to have listened to this show since episode one. So hello Beth. Thank you for listening. Thank you everyone for listening. Frippery is located in the heart of downtown Great Barrington and is home to vintage and secondhand clothing and accessories for men, women and children. The store is curated with intention and each piece is hand selected by Beth.
- [54:51]
A
Brands include current pieces from Anthropology, Reformation, Ceson and Eileen Fisher, just to name a few. But Beth also offers styling services and customized thrifted capsule wardrobes for folks who love the idea of shopping secondhand but don't have the time to scour thrift stores for the perfect pieces. I think that offering is so unique and cool. So what you do is you share your style goals with Beth or send her a mood board with inspiration photos and she'll thrift just for you and create a stylish, sustainable capsule wardrobe with timeless pieces that can be easily mixed and matched.
- [55:28]
B
So if you're looking for one of a kind vintage treasures, head to fripperyburkshires.com to shop Beth's thoughtfully curated vintage and secondhand collection or sign up for your own personalized capsule wardrobe. There's also a special offer for our listeners. You can use code BOP50 when you sign up for your capsule at fripperyberkshires.com and get $50 off. That's frippery. F R I P E R I E Berkshires. B E R K S H I r e s.com and you can also visit the shop in person seven days a week starting July 1st. I know that I have plans to go there very soon or follow along on Instagram at February. Underscore Berkshires for best thrifting adventures and weekly Instagram story sales. Frippery Berkshires secondhand, but make it chic.
- [56:21]
A
Okay. Olivia, you have an obsession that I have been hearing about everywhere and I need to hear it directly from you.
- [56:29]
B
Yes. I don't think you can watch this though. I think it's too scary. Oh, that was my question. I know, I know. It is. It is. Well, maybe. I don't know. Okay, so it's Widow's Bay on Apple tv. I have been hearing so much about this and the other night, Jake and I, it was so hot out, we put the air conditioning unit in the living room and we were like, let's go to the gas station, get a bunch of snacks and just like settle in for an evening of binge watching something. We didn't actually have a subscription to Apple TV anymore, but we got one for this. And it is such a me show in so many ways. It is set in a fictional island off the coast of Massachusetts called Widow's Bay that is cursed. Matthew Reese stars in it of the Americans and many other things. Who he is just excellent. He's the mayor of this town and he's trying to get tourists to come there and to like, be the next Martha's Vineyard. And there's a curse, so just terrible things happen. But it's not just scary. It's also very funny and it's this really weird balance. It's also very atmospheric. There's like this small town aspect of it. There's like an old haunted house. It's just very quirky and weird. I think the writer creator used to be a writer for Parks and Rec. So it's.
- [57:47]
A
Yeah, so I saw it pitched as if Stephen King wrote Parks and Rec.
- [57:51]
B
Correct. That is absolutely correct. And there is a clown episode which I wish I could unsee, to be honest. I don't love horror usually, but I do did do really enjoy this. We still have one episode to watch. It's a great binge watch. Would be excellent Halloween television. Yeah, it seems like a missed. It's too early to be talking about
- [58:09]
A
that, but a missed opportunity to release it in the summer.
- [58:12]
B
I know, I know. But it is also like, you know, an island, there's swimming ocean, that kind of thing. So. So, yeah, it lives up to the hype. Well, what's your obsession?
- [58:23]
A
My obsession is Olivia Rodrigo's new album. You Seem Pretty Sad for a girl so in Love. And I especially am really vibing with. Well, I like Drop Dead, the single, and then I really like Stupid Song. And I like Expectations. I just think it's an incredibly solid album. Like, it's a no Skips album for me. Have you listened yet?
- [58:43]
B
No, but I saw a clip of her singing Stupid Song or maybe someone reacting to it. I'm not sure. But I was really intrigued.
- [58:50]
A
It would be a great driving soundtrack if you're going on any, like, adventures in the next few weeks. Like, it's. It's a really solid album to just, like, listen to straight through.
- [59:02]
B
Good to know.
- [59:03]
A
And one thing that I saw that I found particularly interesting was somebody said it feels really good to listen to pop music that wasn't produced by Jack Antonoff. And it's true. As much as I love Jack Antonoff's music, like, it does feel really different in a way that feels good. Like, it doesn't feel the same as all the rest of the pop music right now.
- [59:28]
B
I did see the interview where she's talking about the Taylor Swift feud, which I don't fully understand myself, but I'm sure she appreciated that. Tweet silently. Well, what have you read?
- [59:40]
A
I've read nothing. Well, I mean, I've read this book, but I've read nothing outside of this book to add. I am being a very delinquent reader in June, and I'll tell you that I'm very excited. Tomorrow is Friday. I don't have any plans except for to curl up with a book.
- [59:56]
B
What's on your radar?
- [59:58]
A
That's a good question. I really want to read Phoebe Berman's Gonna Lose it because I keep hearing so much about that. My goal for vacation was to read Dolly all the Time by Annabelle Monaghan. So that's also at the top of my list. And then I'm also really intrigued by. It was a book of the month pick this month. I'm really intrigued by this book called Main Characters by Bobby Palmer, which is a rom com told from everybody's perspective except for the two people in love.
- [60:28]
B
That is my. One of my editor's books. Oh, really? And I am also very excited for that because it is Also comp to one day.
- [60:34]
A
Oh, okay. So yeah, So I think it's something in one of those. But it might. Who knows what mood will overtake me and it might be something totally different.
- [60:45]
B
Well, you'll keep us updated?
- [60:46]
A
I will. I have a podcast for purely that reason. What about you? What have you read in the past three days?
- [60:53]
B
I have not finished anything. I too have been very delinquent. I'm reading June Baby so I'll report back on that.
- [61:00]
A
Okay. Well, in the meantime, we have our listener pick book club in July. So every July you get to pick the book club. We already voted on it in the Facebook group and we're going to be reading the Burning side by Sarah Damoff in a nail biter of a win. I think it won by one vote. So this is a story about a couple on the brink of divorce whose world is turned upside down when their home burns down overnight. So I've heard it is a very character driven novel. Doesn't sound like an upper of a novel, but I've heard that it's incredibly well done. So I'm excited for back to back
- [61:36]
B
to back tears here on baton paper. Like if you're not crying when you're reading our book club picks, I don't know what to tell you.
- [61:42]
A
Oh gosh, that's a lot of pressure. I have August so I'll try to pick something that is lighter.
- [61:47]
B
I personally love it, so I'm. I'm good with any and all books. Well, if you want to discuss any of this, you can join us in the Facebook group under Batt on Paper Podcast. We are also on Instagram at Paper Podcast and we have the BFF group under Bat on Paper Podcast. I am on Instagram and substack and
- [62:06]
A
everywhere at oliviamenter and I am on Instagram ecamfreeman. My newsletter is at beccafreeman. Substack.
- [62:13]
B
Com.
- [62:14]
A
If you're here, I bet you're a big reader. I have my second book coming out in October and I would be honored if you would pre order it. It is called Back where We Started and it's available October 13th. And we haven't talked about this lately, but I do feel like a little bit of a broken record. But pre ordering a book is one of the biggest things you can do to help me or any author because it helps to show both publishers and retailers that there's excitement around this book. So if you're planning to buy it at some point, buy it now. I would be very appreciative. Do that and in the meantime, we're gonna go read some books.
- [62:47]
B
Bye. Bye.