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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Olivia, Mentor.
- [00:24]
A
And it is our monthly installment of three things.
- [00:27]
B
One of my things I am bursting at the seams to talk about.
- [00:30]
C
Oh, wow.
- [00:31]
B
I don't even know what you will have to say about it, but I just need to put some thoughts out there, so I'm looking forward to it.
- [00:37]
A
Well, I haven't been warned, so I can't wait to hear what it is. But before we get into that, tell me your high this week.
- [00:44]
B
My high is that I had a book signing in Natick, which is outside of Boston in Massachusetts, and it was out of Barnes and Noble. It was a signing, so it wasn't an event. I just kind of sit at a table and see what happens. Essentially, I just make eye contact with people until they wander over to me. But it was really nice, and a lot of really sweet podcast listeners and substack readers showed up and were just so supportive and kind. And I had this one interaction that I wanted to talk about because it relates to the podcast, but it was just so special to me. And it was that this woman came up to me and she, you know, bought the book. So nice. And I signed it, and then she handed me this book, and she said, I wanted to give you this because. Because of the podcast, I either started writing or I kept writing, or I felt inspired to keep going. And I had a short story published in this anthology, and so she gave it to me. And I just. I don't know, something about it was so emotional to me and lovely, and there are so many authors who I meet who have inspired me in some way to keep going. And so I don't know, the fact that the podcast sort of gave that to her, it was just really cool and that she gave me the book. I haven't had a chance to read the short story yet, but I haven't, and I'm looking forward to it. It's called other. It's a 2024 speculative fiction anthology from Bannister Press. Her name is Jacqueline Perez. Jackie. So thank you to Jackie. But it was just really something I'll always remember, and I will cherish the book.
- [02:27]
A
Oh, wow. What a lovely interaction.
- [02:30]
B
Yeah. I wanted to tell you, since you're part of it as well. Well, what's your high?
- [02:35]
A
Mine is less universally meaningful, but very personally meaningful. I knew that this would be the case, but I think really this weekend, I fully felt like having a dishwasher changed my life.
- [02:50]
B
Did you host something?
- [02:52]
A
I didn't host something. But on Sunday, I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm meal prepped, but I cooked a bunch of different things. It was Easter. I had a craving for deviled eggs. So I was like, I'm gonna make deviled eggs. And then there was this recipe that I'd seen on reels that I ended up making, which ended up being kind of a bust. It was these smash burger tacos ended up being very greasy. It looked good, but either I messed up or the recipe wasn't as great as it looked in videos, but I did that. And then because those were kind of a bust, I ended up meal prepping some turkey meatballs. Like, I. I cooked a lot on Sunday and the fact that I was able to do that without creating a whole second project in terms of cleaning the dishes, I was like, wow, this was so much less stressful than it would have been. And I think I finally felt it. I felt grateful for the dishwasher since I moved in, but this was like the first day that I did some heavy cooking. I am hosting next week, so I think again, it'll just continue to reinforce itself. But wow. And especially after not having one for 15 years. It's such a small thing, but having a dishwasher, I mean, I don't have to tell you, you had one and now you don't have one and then you're gonna have one again. Oh my gosh.
- [04:11]
B
I can totally imagine how you must be feeling and I'm so happy for you. It really does make the biggest difference, little things like that. So I'm glad you're putting it to good use.
- [04:21]
A
Thank you.
- [04:22]
B
Well, what's your low?
- [04:23]
A
My low is, is a serious low. I am kind of just beside myself at the current state of politics and specifically on Tuesday. We're recording this on April 9, so that would have been April 7, when the president threatened to end a civilization in those words on truth social. It was so bone chilling, so dystopian and nothing happened. Like, I just had this sense of like, oh, there's really no line. Like Congress did not get called back into session. Congressional representatives posted some strongly worded social media messages, but literally nothing happened. I don't know, like it's with everything that's come out in the Epstein files with this UN approved war that we are in with Iran that I personally don't support, I think I don't know how Congress feels because it. I don't know, I'm just, I'm being very inarticulate right now, but it's just like, wow, there are no lines. Who is going to stop this? Because making calls to my senators and protesting, I mean, those are all good things, but, like, the President's just on his social media platform, threatening. Maybe not directly, but, like, it seems like nuclear war. Like, that's insane. And on a personal level, like, my anxiety was just sky high that whole day, and only for it to be called off at the end, which I'm. I'm obviously glad it was called off, but, like, this is not normal. Like, this is not healthy.
- [06:06]
B
Yeah, it's not normal. And yet it has been so normalized that when you were talking about Truth Social, it made me not laugh, but it just made me think about the fact that, you know, 10 years ago or whatever it was at this point when he was so out of control that he was literally kicked off of Twitter and then created Truth Social. And you would think that that would have some effect, like being banned from a platform for inciting violence and hate speech, but now just. Just continues to. To do his thing. Yeah, it's horrible. It's. It's actually been kind of interesting, slash horrifying, because I've been going to A Planet Fitness. It's been so cold. I just wanted to go somewhere where I could walk inside. And they have all the news channels up. Like, all of them.
- [06:59]
A
Oh, gosh.
- [07:00]
B
You know, and in a way, it's been kind of eye opening to see the different ways things are positioned on different platforms. And I don't know, it's just at this point, I don't. I don't know what the answer is. I don't know if there is an answer, but I do have hope that this will come to an end at some point. Please, please, please.
- [07:24]
A
What is your low?
- [07:26]
B
I don't really have a low. I can definitely kind of join you in that low. It's. It's just upsetting. It's all upsetting.
- [07:36]
A
Yeah. Well, let's take an ad break and then hopefully get into some things that are less upsetting. I don't know what you brought. Maybe they're upsetting things.
- [07:45]
B
No, I don't think so. Well, no. No, I don't think so. I hope not. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I often look back at 2023 as one of the most stressful years of my life. It was a time with a lot of personal and professional challenges. And it was also the year that we bought our first home and moved, AKA we had a lot of financial things to Think about Finances can be a major source of stress for so many people.
- [08:21]
A
With 88% of Americans feeling some form of financial stress at the start of 2026, it's incredibly common to feel pressure when it comes to money. Financial stress can bring anxiety, sleep disruption, and even depression. This month, we want to normalize the emotional weight of financial stress and remind people that struggling with money doesn't mean they failed. Sometimes it's just about accessing the right kind of Support.
- [08:45]
B
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- [09:21]
A
Well, Olivia, you said you were bursting to talk about one of your things, so please, by all means, yes, I
- [09:27]
B
have to talk about Strangers. The memoir.
- [09:29]
A
The memoir. I was wondering if you were going to bring this because you said a few weeks ago that you were going to read it to screen it for book club. Then I never heard anything about it again. It didn't come up in our reading segment, so I didn't know if you didn't get to it or hated it or where are we?
- [09:44]
B
Yeah, I finished it this morning. I was considering it as a book club pick. It seemed so buzzy. It has only gotten more so. But then I read Good People and I just loved it and I thought it was a better pick for a lot of reasons, even without having read Strangers. Now that I have read it, I simply must discuss this book. And it is not for the reasons that I thought it would be. Okay, well, first of all, I have to know, how much do you know about this? Have you read it? I don't think you have, but tell me if you have. Tell me what you've gathered.
- [10:17]
A
I've not read it. I do not expect to read it. I have a pretty lengthy TBR and nonfiction, and especially Marriage memoirs is not necessarily my my bread and butter, but I've. I've heard from so many people who've read it. I'm sure many listeners have read it. I'm familiar with the broad strokes of it. I'm. I'm familiar with the fact that it's about a woman's husband who left her out of nowhere and she didn't have any Closure around that. Also didn't have a prenup, that she's from a very wealthy family. Her grandmother was Babe Paley, who was one of Truman Capote's swans and maybe involved in magazine publishing in some way.
- [10:57]
B
Yes. She was sort of like a fashion icon of the time.
- [11:00]
A
Okay. I am aware that there is a lot of privilege in this story. I think I know less than I would have now that I'm trying to explain it to you. I think I know the broad strokes, but I don't actually know the arc of the story outside of her husband leaving her. Like, I don't know the what happens next.
- [11:16]
B
That's the story.
- [11:17]
A
But there's no, there's no what happens next.
- [11:19]
B
Nope. She never finds out why ever. I mean, that is the story. And you know, the shocking thing of it is they're married for all these decades. He, you know, basically is put on the spot when she gets a call from a man who says, sorry to tell you this, but my wife is having an affair with your husband. And he's just like, yeah, I don't want any of this. You can keep custody of the kids. I don't want that either. I'm leaving. That's it. I'm never gonna tell you why.
- [11:47]
A
Wait, I know one more thing.
- [11:49]
B
Yes.
- [11:49]
A
I know that Gwyneth Paltrow is going to play her in a movie adaptation.
- [11:54]
B
Correct? Correct. There is one thing you said that isn't actually accurate, which is that they, they did have a prenup, but it had been altered in such a way that was a little complicated. Basically they both split everything. Even though she bought with her money or her, her family's money. I should probably say it was in a trust, their first apartment, but then he wanted half of it. Blah, blah, blah. It's. It's kind of convoluted. If there's any like, main takeaway that she seems to have in the book, it's that she should have known what was happening with the money. More, you know, she ends up being surprised that he is making, she finds millions and millions of dollars a year. This to me, baffled me. I was baffled on so many levels. Let me go back. I think I expected when I read this book and I knew the basics of it, as you did, to be really floored by, you know, the sort of horrifying narrative that someone in a 20 year long relationship can just be like, I'm out and I'm not telling you why. And that's true. Like, this man is horrific. If I saw him on the street, I would have the urge to bring him to the ground, just to physically tackle him. It's terrible. But honestly, I think the reason this book is so buzzy is not that I think it's the money of it. The money in this book is unbelievable. I was reading passages out loud to Jake last night, just trying to give him a sense of this. So, for example, one of the anecdotes in the book is that he really never was into birthdays at all. Like, he didn't grow up with them being a thing. His family didn't really celebrate them. But Bell loved birthdays and she just kind of accepted that, like he didn't get it. So then she's like, well, one year for my 47th birthday, he finally delivered and he gave me this box. And inside of the box was the key. And it was a key to a beach in Martha's Vineyard. And she was like, these keys are passed down family to family. Or, you know, you can buy them for a really large price. Please, just guess. I'm googling it real time. Guess what one of those beach keys
- [14:02]
A
costs to a fully private beach or to a semi private beach that you can only access with a key, but multiple people have access?
- [14:10]
B
Unclear, but I think it's the latter.
- [14:13]
A
$2 million. Okay, did I go too high?
- [14:17]
B
It's too high. It's like $300,000. Okay, but, but my point is like, it's just like he's buying you a $300,000 birthday gift and you're like, I'm surprised that he's making millions of dollars. And they have a wine collection that they store in a, a like separate climate controlled facility in another state. But that's part of his wine collection and part wine. She has inherited. She's inheriting wine. That's the type of money we're talking about. When they buy their first apartment, they have one kid, she moves in immediately, gets a nanny, and they have two washers and two dryers with one child and three people. And the thing is, she does acknowledge her privilege, but not that often. And it is hard for me to tell whether she has grown up amidst such otherworldly wealth that she doesn't realize it is jarring and unbelievable or because it's, it's like repetitive and annoying to be like, you know, I'm so privileged. I'm so privileged. I don't know, I just. There's a sense of like, you're in another world. And that to me, almost is more shocking than the separation and the divorce. Which is of course horrible. And I feel for her in a lot of ways, but I don't know. It's not that I, I don't have empathy and I'm like, if you're privileged, you can't feel pain. And I certainly feel like she experienced more than what anyone should have to deal with in a marriage. But there's a kind of like detached cold feeling from it that I just didn't connect with. I don't know.
- [15:56]
A
Okay.
- [15:56]
B
I don't know. I know people have loved this, but
- [15:58]
A
I have two follow up questions for you.
- [16:00]
B
Yes.
- [16:01]
A
Okay, so first, how do you understand her motivation in writing this book? Because that's something having not read, either that I do not fully understand about her memoir or Lindy West's memoir, Adult Braces, which has also been very buzzy, like we are all on the same Internet. They both had to have understand that these stories would be lightning rod moments for discourse. And in Lindy West's case, I think she does say something about needing the money versus in this case, Bell Burden does not need the money, even post divorce. So how do you understand her motivation? Like, is this just a fuck you? Like, I'll set myself on fire just to put it out there what a dick you are to her ex husband. Like, is it an ego thing?
- [16:51]
B
Well, you know, interestingly, I read both of those memoirs this week. And so in the book section at the end, I can kind of talk about Adult Braces too, because I do think there's some differences. And I think that, I mean, there's a lot of differences, but I think Lindy west is getting absolutely dragged while Bell Burden is getting completely celebrated and Gwyneth Paltrow is playing her in a movie. And I understand why there's a lot of differences to the stories, of course, but I mean, this whole book is based on a modern love essay that she wrote after the divorce. It, I think it was published in 2023. And when she wrote that essay, she had not written creatively anything in 30 years. She just sat down and wrote it. She described it as sort of wanting to just put the truth out there. And there is some interesting stuff in the book about her family history and how many of her relatives, women specifically, have been in relationships with men who do not treat them right and who take advantage of them and seem to just like operate in this, in this environment where they can do whatever they want. I think she just wanted to own her story. She talks about in the book how when she would run into people in the Wake of the divorce, she would just tell them immediately. She'd be like, james left me. And she really learned a lot from people's reactions to that and how they treated her. I don't know. There's just other things in the book. For example, when he tells her this and he leaves her, it's the very first days of the pandemic, and they're in Martha's Vineyard. Her son is staying with friends, her teenage son. And then he continues to stay with them for months and months and months. In fact, I don't even think he is living with her for, like, the next two or three years. He's like, with friends, or she explains it like he wanted to be with friends, but I'm like, that's your kid. And you're just. I don't know. Who am I to judge someone's parenting? I just found it, like, sort of this, like, boarding school culture of, like, detachment. They also. When they leave the city for the pandemic, the dog is at a border. They leave it there for three months, and I'm like, you couldn't go back and get your dog, huh? I don't know. It's just. There's some things that I think are like, she's in this really small bubble of wealth that I think she thinks is more normal than maybe it is. Okay. Every time I think it was going deeper, it kind of, like, swerved. And we were talking about ospreys. Huh.
- [19:12]
A
I didn't expect ospreys.
- [19:14]
B
It's a lot about ospreys. At the same time, I'm like, this man deserves to be hung out to dry. I don't know. Even him, though, there's this coldness. I mean, way beyond what she is. She. He has this coldness to him about just detachment from everything. And he doesn't see the kids on holidays or weekends. He hasn't had them to sleep over. Like, it's just really disturbing to me. And for some reason, I think it all ties back to just, like, an insane amount of wealth. And I can't quite figure out how, but that's my takeaway. But it really did move me to hear her write about how, like, she wrote this, and she hopes that her daughters will make different choices and her daughters will. Will have a different experience. And I respect anyone who's just, like, putting it out there. So I will end on that. But I really need to talk to many people about this.
- [20:05]
A
Wait. I have a second question for you.
- [20:07]
B
Yes? Sorry. I have so many thoughts. Like I said, I just Need. I need them out there.
- [20:11]
A
Okay. My second question is, have you done any of the extra credit here? Because there is obviously the narrative that is in the book, but then I have to imagine that people have uncovered more about what's been going on with both of them since then. I imagine you can find photos or floor plans of these apartments. Like, have you gone down the full rabbit hole, or are you just taking the narrative as intended in the discrete package of this book?
- [20:42]
B
Yes. I was watching an interview that the ex husband gave on CNBC about 12 years ago.
- [20:48]
A
Okay, so you're too tired.
- [20:50]
B
Yep. So, yeah, because I just had to put a face to this, like, monster of a person. Like, it's just this heartless, like, robot human being. Yes. I've been through the whole thing. I've tried to find everything. He has scrubbed himself from most parts of the Internet, but, I mean, I think he's still making millions and millions of dollars as the director of a hedge fund. She's doing quite well, I think, but he never gave her a reason. The most fascinating thing, though, I learned in this book, is that when she submitted her essay to Modern Love, and like, nine months after the fact, a year after the fact, they were like, we're going to consider this. They said, you need to get a comment from him and send it to him. Which I guess makes sense.
- [21:37]
A
So that he didn't sue.
- [21:38]
B
Well, I guess so. It was, like, fair. Okay. That he had a chance to comment.
- [21:43]
A
Okay.
- [21:43]
B
And she sent it to him, and he said something along the lines of. That was hard to read. It was sad, but it's great writing. Go ahead. And I was like, what? Nothing about it really makes sense. It just doesn't. Doesn't make sense at all. It's so different than I thought it would be. Having known what I knew about the whole thing and just the way money is discussed. I cannot believe people live this way. Like, I, I, I know people do. I know it's a thing. But, like, it was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. She very casually was like, yeah, he has a boat that he keeps in, you know, Battery park, and he just takes out around Manhattan on the weekends. Like, it was just things. Yeah, don't we all? And she's like, oh, and then we go to Martha's Vineyard, and it's just all. It's talked about as if it's normal and it's just not. Like, it's not. It's not. It's not. And maybe that's why him acting this way he somehow thought was normal. Too. Anyway, really curious to hear what everyone thinks. It is definitely a quick roller coaster of a book. And I do have lots of thoughts on adult braces too, but we can get to that later. Okay, what is your first thing?
- [22:53]
A
Where do I start? Okay, let me start with a bookish thing because I have two book things so we can bookend them. So I feel as though I have somewhat lost the plot in the last year on what constitutes literary fiction. And I'm wondering if you are similarly afflicted by this and. Or if you have a clear definition of it. Because I think that five years ago if you asked me, I would have had a much clearer answer. And right now I'm like, I'm almost resistant to calling anything literary fiction interesting.
- [23:31]
B
Hmm. I kind of feel the opposite.
- [23:32]
A
Like I think, oh, everything's literary to you.
- [23:34]
B
Well, I think more things can be considered literary, like, you know, this trend of literary romances. But I think literary fiction, full stop, is something very specific.
- [23:45]
A
Okay, tell me what it is, please.
- [23:47]
B
Like when I read A Visit from the Goon Squad.
- [23:49]
C
Uh huh.
- [23:50]
B
I was like, this is literary fiction.
- [23:52]
A
I agree, but that was older. I have examples that I want to
- [23:56]
B
ask you about too. Okay. I'm trying to think of the last thing I read, probably like that book Whale Fall, that that was literary to me because the form was different. There's something about it that is not going to be immediately understood or click with every single reader. Okay, yeah. Okay, tell me your examples or your thoughts. Because, yeah, I agree with you. It is confusing.
- [24:19]
A
So I think I would have previously told you that it is something. It is a book that is very concerned with the language used at a sentence level that maybe has less consideration for an overarching plot arc. Maybe something more character driven, something experimental, as you said, but less. And then, and then, and then concrete plot. Also I think of things like an Emma Cline novel where maybe the main character is somebody that you're not rooting for, or all fours, like somebody you're not rooting for, but you're reading this story. But then. Okay, so here are some examples that are really tripping me up. Would you call Wild Dark Shore literary fiction?
- [25:03]
B
I would call it upmarket, I guess.
- [25:06]
A
And maybe that's like there's been an emergence of upmarket plot focused fiction that does have a strong attention to language. And you know, there's also the weird thing of what happens when a literary novel is very commercially successful, which could be like a Visit from the Goon Squad, for instance, where it's like, by being commercial, is it not literary? Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. But, like, I do think that Wild Darkshore, being so commercially successful, being a Rhesus Book Club pick, like, is it a piece of literary fiction? Okay. Another one, experimental in form, is the Correspondent literary fiction.
- [25:42]
B
See, I think that's also upmarket, but I think it leans more commercial. Okay, But I think this is also subjective. You know, that's the other thing. Like, that's a tough thing with labels. I almost feel like literary fiction should be reserved for books that are not going to be commercially appealing to all, you know, like the FSG novels of the world, kind of.
- [26:05]
A
But, like, doesn't FSG publish Sally Rooney? Like, how can we say that Sally Rooney is not commercially successful?
- [26:12]
B
She is, but I think she's the exception in books of that type. Not the whole.
- [26:19]
A
Like, there are certain things that I know are a literary novel. For instance, audition by Katie Kitamura. I feel very confident in my mind. I understand that as a literary novel. But then something like Lost Lambs by Madeline Cline, which, to be fair, I have not read.
- [26:34]
B
I'm like, also fsg.
- [26:35]
A
I think I'm like, is that literary? Even though it's been very buzzy?
- [26:40]
B
Yes. I mean, I think things can be literary without being literary Fiction, I guess, is where I land.
- [26:45]
A
Okay. Oh, that's an interesting distinction. And then I've also seen. On the flip side of that, I've seen people saying Emily Henry is literary romance. And I'm like, I love Emily Henry, but I don't think that's true. I think she's an incredibly skilled writer, but I would never consider that literary fiction or even literary romance. Like, I would consider literary romance much more along the lines of, like, Heart the Lover or Deep Cuts. Deep Cuts or Talking at night.
- [27:18]
B
Yeah, I would agree with you there. I mean, I also think that Emily Henry is pretty upmarket, but again, more commercial probably than literary. So it's like a spectrum rather than a box.
- [27:32]
A
I've just. I've gotten lost in the sauce here. Every month, when I do my book report newsletter and I do forthcoming releases, I categorize them and I say, you know, romance or mystery or whatever. And I feel like I'm almost resistant to putting anything in the literary bucket these days.
- [27:49]
B
Yeah. Unless it's like, an audition, and it's very clear. It's confusing. Yeah, I see what you mean. I think also I've been thinking a lot about trends and stuff after we had those conversations last week for the podcast and Listening to expert opinions. And some things I've read recently fall into this. But I think we're going to see more of, like, complete genre mashups like you. There is no one box it can fit in, and I'm interested to see what that presents.
- [28:16]
A
I'll be curious, too, but I'm glad it's not just me who feels a slight bit of confusion.
- [28:23]
B
Well, it's especially confusing as authors, I think, because you're trying to describe your work like, you know, what you want to comp it to or what kind of bucket you wanted to fit it in, what place on the spectrum you want it to be. But then when you talk to people, you realize they might have different definitions, and so you don't want to. You know, it's just. It's very confusing. It's. It's very confusing. It's almost like you want people to tell you, but then that doesn't feel fair either. So I'm with you.
- [28:51]
A
Thank you for sitting in the confusion with me. Take me to your next thing.
- [28:55]
B
I want to talk about things that make you irrationally angry or annoyed, because I have a lot of them personally, and I've been thinking about them recently, and I wanted to know what yours are.
- [29:10]
A
Okay, take me through yours first.
- [29:12]
B
Okay. 1. People who listen to videos in public without headphones. Jail or FaceTime. Jail.
- [29:19]
A
Same with. There's always a guy on the. On the subway with, like, a boombox listening to his music, and then the whole train car is listening to his music.
- [29:30]
B
Yes. Trains, planes, airports, restaurants, lines for. I am immediately enraged. It feels so selfish. It feels so like, none of you exist. It's only me. I hate it. I hate it so much. Second is people who constantly comment on how much food you're eating, what you're eating, what they're eating, how much it is. I mean, this is personal to me and my issues, but, like, I hate it.
- [30:00]
A
How much?
- [30:00]
B
It is so common.
- [30:01]
A
Is it money or volume of it?
- [30:03]
B
No, no, quantity.
- [30:03]
A
Oh, quantity. Okay.
- [30:05]
B
Like, oh. And, you know, this is also very gendered. Like, it happens, like, a lot. With Jake, for example, if he eats everything on his plate, it's like, wow, you ate all of that? Wow, it's so great. It's just. I hate it. I despise it. Do not do this, please. Third, when people. I think this is kind of out of vogue now, if you will. But for a while there, it was a trend to call things aesthetic, and I'm like, no, no, that's not anything. There are aesthetics. Something can Be aesthetically pleasing. It can be a certain aesthetic. You can't call something aesthetic. And actually, I think. I think somehow this, like, reflects the sameness that is, like, present on the Internet so much of the time. Like, the fact that all aesthetics that exist somehow became just one word. Like, that's very aesthetic. I hate it. It just. It made me want to break things every time I heard that. Finally. And my mom does this, God bless her. I do not like to dog ear a page when I'm reading a physical book.
- [31:10]
A
Oh, I'm a dog earer.
- [31:12]
B
But I will do a little one. Just the tiniest. The tiny tip of the top corner. My mom will do the full tip to. To spine fold. So it's like there's a huge line going down the middle of the text, and that's where I draw the line. I don't like that. And then when I get a library book and it has it, I'm angry.
- [31:32]
A
I'm kind of in the middle of you two. I'm like the Goldilocks.
- [31:35]
B
Okay, now, do you dog ear all the time or only if you don't have a bookmark? Always.
- [31:42]
A
It doesn't bother me at all. Oh, my gosh.
- [31:44]
B
See, I would rather not ever do that. And I would just use my bookmark, but sometimes I, you know, don't have one or.
- [31:50]
A
And I think it's fun if I borrow a book from somebody or somebody reads something after me. If a book is, you know, a little manhandled in a way where it's like, oh, you can see where they stopped. Or I will sometimes highlight things and then forget that I highlighted something and pass it on to a friend and they'll be like, I loved seeing what bits you highlighted.
- [32:09]
B
That is charming. That is charming. I should. Maybe I'll eventually get there with the big dog ears. It's just. I don't know, it's so much of the page. Okay, those are a few of mine.
- [32:20]
A
Okay.
- [32:20]
B
What makes you irrationally angry?
- [32:22]
A
Okay, I've come up with a few as we have been speaking. The first one is pretty much any customer service menu on the phone where it's like an endless cycle and. Or you are trying to press 0 or saying representative, and they say that they didn't get that. I feel like menus have gotten longer and less useful.
- [32:46]
B
Did I tell you about my AI experience recently where it was an AI that was supposed to sound like a nice Southern woman and she called me sugar?
- [32:56]
A
No.
- [32:56]
B
I could have burnt my home to the ground in anger. I was like, do not, you robot freak. Don't call me sugar. And try to act like a nice Southern lady. I hated it. I. I think this is only getting worse, but I'm with you.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah, I had one yesterday that I just could not get to a human. It wanted some ID number from me, and I was like, I don't know what the ID number is. I don't have it. And it was like, we can't talk to somebody until you have an ID number. And then I was pressing zero, and they were like, you've entered 0,000,000. And I'm like, no, give me a person.
- [33:34]
B
And then you think it's a person, but it's AI.
- [33:37]
A
Okay, so that's definitely one of mine. Another is when you walk into a restaurant and it's completely empty and. And you say, hi, can I have a table for two? And they say, oh, I'm sorry, we're fully booked.
- [33:48]
B
Does this happen a lot?
- [33:50]
A
Yes. I feel like I understand that you're fully committed with reservations, but there's literally no one in here, so can you at least say, oh, like, we can give you a table, but we'll need it back in an hour or. It makes me irrationally angry when there's somebody tells me that and there's literally nobody there.
- [34:09]
B
Yep. This has happened to me a few times. Now that I recall, it's always, like, awkward because you just, like, look. You both look back towards the room and you're like, all right, you sure? Goodbye. Yeah.
- [34:20]
A
Okay, my next one. I have a lot of walking etiquette things in New York City.
- [34:26]
B
Right.
- [34:27]
A
And a family walking four across on a sidewalk slowly feels like a plant to drive me insane.
- [34:34]
B
Yeah, they're cutting you off.
- [34:37]
A
And I'm, like, ducking into traffic and in, like, tree beds. Try to get around them.
- [34:42]
B
Yeah, I feel your frustration here, but I have a lot of driving frustrations, which is I'm sure if I'm driving the speed limit and you're riding my ass, I hate you. Like, I find it so mean. I find it so mean I'm going the speed limit as the law dictates. Like, and you're going to punish me for that. It's ridiculous. Ridiculous.
- [35:07]
A
Yeah. That's all I came up with.
- [35:10]
B
Okay, well, those are good. Solid.
- [35:13]
A
Thanks.
- [35:13]
B
Get out of our way is what
- [35:15]
A
is the key here? Yeah, don't play us. Get out of the way.
- [35:20]
B
Put your headphones on, your volume down.
- [35:25]
A
Well, let's take another ad break, and then we can get into less enraging things.
- [35:35]
B
This episode is sponsored by Masterclass. Almost every day I think about how I can get better at writing and it's part of the reason why I read so much. I just want to learn and to be better. And it's also part of why I enjoyed the Masterclass lessons on creative writing so much. I still think of the Joyce Carol Oates class that I took and specifically about the short story she shared that was literally written in the shape of a maze. I can see it in my mind now. It just reminded me that creativity is limitless and writing can be whatever you want it to be, and your work doesn't have to fit into a neat little box to be good.
- [36:16]
A
But Masterclass offers so many lessons beyond just writing. And unlike other learning platforms, Masterclass puts you in the room so with people who defined their fields, not just experts, but the best in the world. Masterclass offers 200 plus classes across 13 categories. Business, Writing, cooking, creativity, wellness, and more. With plans Starting at just $10 a month, billed annually, Masterclass keeps adding new
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B
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- [37:08]
A
Okay, my next one feels a little bit like a non sequitur, but I want to talk about it. Have you been listening to Amy Poehler's podcast Good Hang at All?
- [37:18]
B
No, I think I'm the last person here. I'm a late adopter of everything.
- [37:22]
A
I think it's so charming. I started listening to it, I think maybe two years ago when she had on Ina Garten around her memoir. And she's just such a charming interviewer. She has chemistry with everyone. The premise of the show is really sweet, where she calls a friend of the person before the interview to talk well behind their back and to get somebody else's opinion of the guest and to get a question for the guest. And it's just, it's very sweet. And I also just love there's a lot of SNL lore in the podcast. It's become an auto listen for me and to the point where I will listen to an episode even if I don't know who the guest is or care that much about the guest. Which is a high compliment.
- [38:10]
B
Yeah, for sure.
- [38:11]
A
And so last week her guest was Steve Carell, who I obviously know who he is, but I have no strong attachment to like I've seen the Office, but I'm not like an Office head by any stretch. I'm watching his new show, Rooster, which I'm really enjoying. But I listened. I was like, cooking dinner. I was like, yeah, I'll listen to this. And something about their conversation kind of just really made me think and has really stuck in my craw, not in a bad way, but, like, I've just kept coming back to it. And. And that is. I think that when something feels easy to consume. So something like the Office, something like a lot of comedy performances, I think I have a tendency to dismiss it as having been easy to create in some way or just being people playing and having fun. And they were talking about how, as they've gotten older, they don't really like improv. Steve Carell was talking so thoughtfully about his comedic performances where it was clear that there was just like a ton of interior thought that he was putting into these characters. Like, as an example, he was talking about, I think one of his breaks was on the Daily show, and he was doing, like, man on the street interviews with Congress people with voters, et cetera. And he was talking about how he didn't really like that because it felt like he was gotcha ing them, basically. And so he was given the advice by Stephen Colbert to create a character that was doing it. And so he was really thoughtful in creating this character who just didn't quite get it. So he was the butt of the joke instead of the people. And I found it so thought provoking how much thought and intention was going into very comedic performances. And obviously, I feel like I relate everything back to books. And I think, you know, sometimes when I consume something that is very easy to read, like, say, a Colleen Hoover book, for instance, or, you know, like a really delicious, light, fluffy romance, there's this thought where it's like, oh, if it was easy to read, it must have been easy to write. And like, those two things don't equate in either case necessarily. And it's so masterful. What. Going back to mixing my metaphor here, going back to, like, the comedy of, like, keeping it light enough that it feels easy, but, like, being able to repeat that on command. I don't know, it just. It really made me think.
- [40:44]
B
Yeah, I've kind of thought about this a lot as I've gone sort of more into movies than I've been in a long time in the past couple years in terms of acting. And I think, you know, you watch a movie, you watch a TV show, and you kind of Think here's a person reading lines they have memorized. I mean, of course, we all know there's more to it than that, but when you're consuming it and it's fast and it's quick and it's entertaining, that's kind of what you think, but really grown to appreciate, like, how much thought, as you said, is put into acting choices, background stories, what each individual actor is bringing to this script, that had they chosen someone else, the words might be the same, but the performance would be totally different. And, yeah, I think there's so many things in art that are like that that we don't think for one second about the work that went into it. And it kind of reminds me of the feeling of, in a way, when people are like, oh, I read your book in a day or something, and you think like, wow, that's great. That's so awesome. Thanks for telling me. But it's kind of weird when you've spent years and years and years creating that experience.
- [41:53]
A
But that's something I so value as a consumer, is something feeling easy to consume.
- [41:59]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard to do. It's hard to do, for sure.
- [42:02]
A
It's so hard to do. I think maybe I was conflating so much of this from a comedic perspective with snl, where, you know, obviously everyone on SNL works very, very hard. The hours are really grueling. But, you know, for the most part, everything that's making it to air on Saturday is starting on Monday. And so you're putting hours into it. You're putting time in it. There's famously a no improv rule on snl, so it's not made up on the spot, but it's just these very funny people playing in some way, and they're perfecting it over the course of a week, but it's not years and years and years. And then when you think of a show like the Office, there is much more than a week's worth of work going into each weekly episode. It's not just people showing up who are funny. And although I'm sure there's some of that, too, like moments they didn't expect, I just realized I was like, I'm really underestimating what goes into this.
- [42:58]
B
Yeah. I think comedy, especially because you look at someone like Steve Carell and he's so. He's so funny, and you just know he's funny in real life, which he is. Right. But that doesn't mean that his comedic acting is the same thing as telling a joke on the Fly.
- [43:12]
A
Right.
- [43:13]
B
And I think some people think it is.
- [43:16]
A
Well, he's much shyer and more reserved, based on this podcast, than his character Personas usually tend to be.
- [43:24]
B
I'll have to listen to it because I really. The times I've heard him speak or interviews, I've really found him quite charming. So please do.
- [43:33]
A
I highly. I highly recommend it. It gave me a lot to think about.
- [43:36]
B
Well, I will. Maybe. This is my foray. Finally. People have been telling me to listen to this podcast for years.
- [43:42]
A
It's so, so good. Do you like snl?
- [43:44]
B
I mean, casually.
- [43:45]
A
Okay.
- [43:46]
B
Like, I'll watch the famous skits and stuff, but I'm not, like, watching every Saturday. No. Okay.
- [43:52]
A
Well, listen to the Steve Carell one. After that, there's an episode with Brandi Carlisle, so, you know, you can use that to.
- [43:59]
B
I do love Brain Carlos Ride the
- [44:01]
A
Wave Chain Smoke episodes, if you will.
- [44:04]
B
I look forward to it.
- [44:06]
A
Okay, what is your. Are we on your final thing?
- [44:10]
B
Yeah, my final thing. This is also kind of inspired by our conversation with Alyssa Morris, but I've been thinking about sequels, and I wanted to know how you feel about writing them and reading them. And that is because something that surprised me about publishing books and you probably, I would assume, feel the same way, is that with both of my books, neither of them, I was like, yes, they have ambiguous endings, but I never thought someone's gonna be like, would you write a sequel to this? But inevitably, it does come up sometimes. And I'm sure you've gotten similar questions. And so, I don't know, I wonder, would you ever write a sequel or a duology? Have you gotten that for the Christmas Orphans Club? And do you have weird reactions to it? Do you enjoy reading them? What makes you want another book? Or is it the fact that another book already exists in the series that makes you want it? I don't know.
- [45:04]
A
I have complicated feelings on sequels as a reader, because I. As we were saying in that episode, I feel like the best time to read anything that's a series is after it's all out, so I can read them back to back to back. Because otherwise I forget in between. Sometimes I will, if I really enjoyed something, go back and read the previous installment before reading the new one. But that's a really tall ask. And so I find that my enjoyment of something can sometimes just be killed by my own memory of it. You know, Like, I would probably enjoy the second book if I read it back to back with the first, but I've forgotten too much. So I find that Challenging, but I really enjoyed the experience of getting sucked into a series. But I think I enjoy it more when that happens after it's all out. Like, I'm thinking of with Zodiac Academy, which I read when it was mostly all out with A Court of Thorns and Roses with Throne of Glass. For the most part, I read those when most of the books were out and so I could just go from one book to the next. But then on the flip side, Carly Fortune did something last year where she wrote a. I would call it a Cousin, not a sister to her debut book Every Summer After. I was kind of peeved about this in a way that I had no right to be. Her debut Every Summer after is about brothers, and one brother plays a bigger role than the other. And they were like, we want Charlie's love story. Who's the other brother? And from some of the DMs that she was, like, screenshotting and sharing on her Instagram stories, I was like, leave her alone. Like, let her write whatever she wants to write. We don't need this. Like, we don't need the sequel for this other brother. Like, it doesn't feel necessary to me. She ended up writing the book. I have no idea how much of it was pressure versus inspiration. And I went into it, like, with a bad attitude. I was, like, miffed for her that I was like, this didn't need to exist. Olivia. I was so wrong. I loved that book. I loved that book. And it was so sparkling and so wonderful and so. Oh, it was so, so good. And if you'd asked me before, I was like, this doesn't need to exist. So, like, who am I to judge? Clearly not a good judge.
- [47:31]
B
I understand that.
- [47:32]
A
The other side of the question for my own work, Never say never. I don't feel called to write a sequel to the Christmas Orphans Club. The most common request that I've gotten is wanting a book from Priya's point of view, who's one of the characters. And that's a really complex ask, too, because that's a side character in this book who I obviously tried to be incredibly careful with representation of her experience. But it's not a lived experience I share as an Indian American character. So that just doesn't feel like my story to write. Like, I really enjoyed writing her. I share that. It could be really interesting. She was a side character in that story. And I think there's always something interesting when you're like, what if you looked at a story from a side character's point of view? But I don't see myself writing that. And then as far as the sequel going forward in time with the same characters, I think the challenge is always that you have to rip people apart in order to have any stakes or story there. And so that's really difficult, too. I don't. I don't know what that would be. And never say never. And years I could have an idea of, oh, what does their life look like in their 40s? And that could be interesting fodder because, like, I think it can be done. I just don't have any inspiration for it right now. How do you feel?
- [48:57]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I think similarly, I think there's something creatively interesting about exploring stories in the same world, I guess, in some way. But to me, it feels a little bit like going backwards. And I think that would be really tough because you know how much time you spend in a story to then go back to the same place. It could be really interesting and challenging in a fresh way, but I think it will be hard for me in a lot of ways, too. Yeah.
- [49:28]
A
How do you feel about them as a reader?
- [49:30]
B
I think. And I said this, I guess, to Alyssa, but I think I just. It feels so daunting to be like, there's so many more books, you know, in this world. Like, I would almost like all of it to just be in one chunky book, but if anything, it makes me want to read a book less, not more, if I know that there's multiple, which I know is not the case for everyone, but that's how it is for me. Yeah.
- [49:54]
A
Have you seen the series that is kind of gaining steam right now called the Unselected Journal of Emma M. Lyon?
- [50:02]
B
I have. Yes, I have.
- [50:04]
A
I've been seeing this everywhere, and it's a series of eight books. They're very short, and they are historical fiction, all written as diaries, as if, like, you know, one of the Bennet sisters from Pride and Prejudice was writing a diary, and people love them. And I think. I don't know if there's more planned. I think it's done.
- [50:24]
B
Yes. I have seen this. The covers are really great. Like, if I saw one in, like, a free library box, I would pick it up.
- [50:31]
A
Okay.
- [50:31]
B
That's, like, my level of. Of curiosity. I don't know. I would go out of my way to buy them all. Okay. But I have also seen these everywhere.
- [50:38]
A
Yeah. Same Historical is not really my jam, so I don't. I'm intrigued by the. The buzz, but I'm not super inclined to go out of my way to pick it up.
- [50:50]
B
We'll report back if one of us gets to them.
- [50:52]
A
Yeah.
- [50:54]
B
Well, what's your last thing? Your last thing?
- [50:56]
A
Right, my last thing. I'm phoning a friend. I have a bookstore question. And so when we talked to Emily Summer last week, I took the occasion to sneak in one unrelated question to that interview that I needed to know. So let's go back in time. Okay, so for my next thing, I'm phoning a friend. We talked to Emily Sommer from East City Books last week, and I kept her on the recording session a little after because I had a question about how something works in bookstores that I would like to have demystified. So Emily is back with us.
- [51:35]
C
I'm ready. I think I know what the question is, so maybe I'm not, but I'll.
- [51:39]
A
It's not a gotcha. I think there will be a very obvious answer that is just not obvious.
- [51:43]
B
I don't know either. So we're along for the Rushellers.
- [51:46]
A
Yes.
- [51:46]
C
Okay, we're ready.
- [51:47]
A
Okay, so I saw this thread that said, just a friendly reminder from a bookseller. When you see books out on the sales floor in a store before release day, it's not because the bookstore is trying to sabotage the author sales for new release data. If a publisher does not put a book on on sos parentheses strict on sales list, the bookstore has to put the book on the sales floor regardless of the release date. So you're shaking your head no, that is not true. Okay, I want to hear how this works because I feel like sometimes when I see people finding a book before it comes out, like some of our listeners finding Olivia's book before it came out, it feels like finding a winning lotto ticket.
- [52:29]
C
Right.
- [52:29]
A
And then sometimes people are dming us. Like wanting to start a fight with our publisher. Like this bookstore is like breaking the rules.
- [52:40]
B
Well, wouldn't it all count towards, like pre sales if someone bought it? So the week before if it was. I don't know.
- [52:47]
C
Okay, well, first of all, not every store reports to Bestseller Reports. So not every store reports to the New York Times. We do. And a lot of stores that get the best events do because publishers don't want to send authors to stores that don't report their sales because they want those event sales to count. So we report to both the American Booksellers Association Bookscan, and we report directly to the New York Times. I run that report myself every Monday, and it is a Sunday to Saturday weekly report. So if your book sells before the Saturday before the Pub date, it will not show up on your New York Times bestseller reports because your book isn't out there enough to capture enough sales for it to make a dent. If it sells the Sunday or Monday before your Tuesday pub date, it'll still get captured just because of the way the calendar works. So that's just. That's like Nitty Gritty Inside Baseball. If it's within the calendar week, it'll count.
- [54:00]
A
But even outside of the lists, how does it work when books come in early? How does it happen that a book ends up on shelves?
- [54:07]
C
So it depends on whether you're getting it from a publisher or from a wholesale distributor.
- [54:13]
A
Okay.
- [54:13]
C
We order the vast majority of our forthcoming releases directly from the publishers. And different publishers release on different schedules. So for example, Penguin Random House books usually arrive to us the Monday before they are released on Tuesday. If it's a holiday weekend, like the same week, Friday, the same week. Yeah.
- [54:33]
A
Okay. So one day before, one day before.
- [54:36]
C
So there's not really an opportunity to put them out early. Some publishers, HarperCollins is usually several weeks in advance. They're. They ship earlier than some of the other publishers. For many books they have that SOS that strict on sale date. And either it'll say it on the packing list or the invoice. Do not lay down. It might say it on the box if we've ordered it in carton quantity, like strict on sale, no lay down. Or it might say it in our computer system. It'll have a flag that the publisher has put in like do not sell before the on sale date. We are trained in our store. We have a couple of people who do all the receiving. So they're the ones that when the books come in, they put them into inventory. And they have been trained not to put things out until the release day. So we have a pre order shelf or a pre release shelf and they go there by date. And then every Tuesday morning our staff puts them out on the day that they're to be released. Some publishers care less than others. So like a smaller publisher, an independent publisher, they will say the pub date is April 14, but if you get it two weeks early, go ahead and sell it. Europa Editions doesn't seem to care when books go out. Grove Press doesn't seem to care as much as some other. This is my memory. I don't want to call out any publishers. But like smaller independent publishers seem to care less than the big five care. So if it is a strict on sale book, we have sometimes even signed an affidavit saying, we will not put this out early. That's only for like really big books. Like the latest Suzanne Collins came out. We had signed an affidavit as a store. Sometimes if a celebrity memoir comes out, we will sign an affidavit as a store. We can't put it on an individual title level. On an individual title level, but that's rare. That's only for, you know, really big. I would imagine that the new John Green book that his, you know, he has an adult title that was just announced. I would imagine that we'll be signing an affidavit saying we won't put that out early. But that's rare for most things. They come in and we just have to pay really close attention to the pub date. But it is not true that once it comes in, we have to put it out.
- [57:00]
A
Okay.
- [57:00]
C
That's up to the bookstore. And some bookstores are looser with it and some are stricter. We try to be really strict with it because sometimes it matters in the case of those affidavit titles. So we try to be really strict and careful and not put things out until pub date. In part, that's because we're rule followers at East City Bookshop. We like to. We want to do exactly what we're supposed to and also we want to capture those first week. So sales, you know, I don't want to sell five copies on a Saturday that aren't going to get counted to somebody's New York Times bestseller reports. Yeah. So you do not have to put it out when you receive the book. It's discretionary, usually up to the publisher. But the bookstores have the discretion to display as they see fit and. Or are supposed to.
- [57:51]
A
Not that you would ever do this.
- [57:53]
C
Yes.
- [57:54]
A
But if you were to put out Actar 6 before it came out after having signed an affidavit, what happens? Do you get a sternly worded email? Are they like, you no longer get our books? Like, what happens.
- [58:06]
C
You don't get the books ahead of time anymore. So the publisher can say, we won't ship any early, we won't give you any titles early. So you can't, you can no longer get it until the book's already been released. Which of course puts the bookstore at a disadvantage because it's in the case of one of these huge titles that everybody's pre ordering. They're going to be at the store when we open at 11am and if we have broken the law, the publisher law, then next time they can say, nope, you don't you don't get it until after it's already been released and everybody else gets a head start and we'll lose all those first day sales and pre order sales. I don't know how often that actually happens, but that's the risk.
- [58:47]
A
Okay, this is fascinating. I'm so glad I asked because that's something I've always wondered about how things make it on the shelf early. Why, if it's a big deal. So this was very helpful.
- [58:56]
B
Yeah.
- [58:57]
C
Yes. Well, I'm very glad it was a question that I could actually answer. And I will say sometimes, because we are so careful not to put things out early, sometimes someone will come in looking for a title that comes out on Tuesday and it's not a big deal. You know, it's not a book that probably is going to hit the bestseller list. It's some small obscure title. And in that case, I have been known to, you know, go pull a copy from the pre release. Like I'll sell it to somebody a few days early if I think that the consequences are for everybody. If it's a happy customer and there are no consequences, then I will, I will break the rules in the name of customer service, but on a very limited case by case basis.
- [59:36]
A
That sounds fair. That sounds fair to me. So that concludes our things. Let's take another quick ad break and get into some end matters.
- [59:45]
B
This episode is sponsored by skims. As I have shared about a lot this year, I have become sort of obsessed with keeping track of how much or how little I wear certain items of clothing in my closet. I simply do not want to buy things anymore that I only end up wearing once or twice. And this is why I love my skims everyday cotton T shirt bras. I wear them, as the name suggests, every single day, day, over and over and over again. They have been a 100% worth it addition to my wardrobe. And by the way, I have been wearing these long before skims was an ad partner and so is Becca, because I think Becca is the one that suggested that I buy them in the first place.
- [60:27]
A
So I too have been a very big fan of skims. But I've really kept myself hemmed in by their fits everybody collection. But recently, for our ad partnership, I tried their cotton T shirt bra. I really like this. It is a underwire bra lined, very soft cotton. I will say as a sizing note, I did need to size up 1 cup size. Does that hold for you as well?
- [60:57]
B
Yes. Okay.
- [60:58]
A
I mean, it's really supportive. It looks good under you know, any kind of like tight t shirt, etc. But it's like also really comfortable. I. I'm really curious also to try some of the cotton underwear.
- [61:08]
B
I also have the cotton underwear and they have become my favorite sleep underwear.
- [61:12]
A
Yeah.
- [61:13]
B
Which I am really picky about. So can't suggest. So shop everyday cotton and all of our favorite bras and underwear at skims.
- [61:21]
A
Com.
- [61:22]
B
After you place your order, be sure to let them know that we here on Bat on Paper sent you select podcast in the survey and select bat on Paper in the dropdown menu that follows.
- [61:38]
A
All right, Olivia, into some n matter here. What are you obsessed with again?
- [61:43]
B
Late adopter. I am an old person. Check back in 15 years to see my takes on AI. No, I'm just kidding. So I have been loving the song Taste Back by Harry Styles.
- [61:55]
A
So good. I think that's my favorite song off the album.
- [61:57]
B
So good. It's so good. I walked out of the gym today and it was sunny and 60 degrees and I was listening to this song on my headphones and you could not tell me anything. I was like, this is. This is heaven. It is such a good song.
- [62:11]
A
It's so good. You didn't watch the Summer I Turned Pretty though, did you?
- [62:15]
B
No, I had the first season, but that's it.
- [62:17]
A
I don't assume Harry watched it, but it feels like it was written for season three when Belly Goes to Paris. And oh my gosh, there are so many edits that I'm still seeing. And I love the song, but I also loved the Summer I Turned Pretty. And like, the combination is just. It's very potent.
- [62:34]
B
Well, I didn't watch it, but I will tell you, when I was standing in the parking lot of that Planet Fitness, I had the thought, I want to be on the streets of Europe listening to this song. So I totally get how it could fit. It's just so pleasant and happy. Such a bop.
- [62:50]
A
Such a bop.
- [62:51]
B
Well, what is your obsession?
- [62:53]
A
So I took a online writing course this week. I actually retook an online writing course this week that I also listened to when I was in the very early stages of writing, back where we started. So Jessica Brody, who wrote Save the Cat, Writes a novel, has this online course library called Writing Mastery Academy. It's fairly reasonably priced. It's $30 a month for like an all you can eat model. So you can like sign up for one month, take as many courses as you want, and then cancel. And if there is anybody who has been able to sum up writing as a documentable Step one, step two, step three, process. It is Jessica Brody. Like, she is incredibly type A seemingly. And she loves a process. She has a plan, a document, a tracker for everything. And, yeah, if you're like, I need a teacher to tell me exactly how to write a book, go look at her course library. Anyway, she has this course called her novel Fast Drafting Course. And I took it with back where we started, and I took the whole thing, but I ended up kind of, like, getting frustrated with the process. And this time I was, like, doing a terrible job explaining everything this week. So basically, the theory is just to, like, not look back, which is one of my pitfalls when I'm writing, and to just make a messy first draft. Write it as fast as is reasonable for you, and then you'll fix it later. And I feel like I spent so much time mired in drafts throughout the process of back where we started. And I was like, I just want to, like, write this quickly. And so I took it, and I. I found her. She has, like, a. A coach vibe where she's like, you can do this. And I was like, I felt very capable after doing it, but I really enjoyed it. So I have three index cards taped to my wall across from my desk. And one says, persistent forward, momentum, only forward. And then the other one says, first draft discovery, not perfection. And the third one says, you're making a mess. Embrace it. And, like, I'm really just trying to hold on to all of that as I write this first draft.
- [65:17]
B
And to.
- [65:18]
A
You know, it's usually taken me nine months to a year to write a first draft, and I'm interested in doing it more quickly. Not because I think that will make the overall process faster, but just it's the part I like least. So, like, get it out of the way. I don't know.
- [65:36]
B
No, that sounds super helpful. I imagine having, like, a coach of some kind, you know, like a structure, a system. Something in your ear must be helpful. I actually. I literally think in my writing journal today, I think I literally wrote the words, like, forward, forward, forward, something like that.
- [65:55]
A
Aren't we all just, like, Shakespeare hair? Like characters, like, forward, forward, forward. Go out of the damn spot.
- [66:03]
B
Move, move, move. Momentum, momentum, momentum. Yeah, I'm also like, reread, edit, write. And I'm like, I just need to write. I need to stop doing the first two parts. But it's so hard for me to get into it without that. It's so hard to see how it be useful.
- [66:17]
A
And I can recognize from the process that I went through with back where we started, that there was so much time I spent on things that ended up being cut that I was not equipped in my first draft to have good judgment about what would make it into the draft. And so it's kind of just like, who cares about the language? Who cares about the holes in it? Just like, I think last time I maybe went too far where I. Because I didn't know the characters, I got to a point where I was like, I can't keep going forward because I, like, don't know enough about these people. Like, I can't make them fight. I can't make them fall in love because I just have these, like, very cardboard people. And so maybe I'll also reach a wall with this. But I. I think that because I'm not outlining, trying to move through this quickly and tell the story to myself, and then to be able to separate what goes in versus what goes out feels more sane than spending weeks on one chapter that may or may not make it to the end.
- [67:16]
B
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
- [67:18]
A
I always come back to this Jordan Peele quote. I don't know if we've talked about this, where he said. And he's talking about screenwriting, but he said, when I'm writing the first draft, I'm constantly reminding myself that I'm simply shoveling sand into a box so that later I can build castles. And I love that.
- [67:35]
B
Yes. Yeah, that sounds vaguely familiar.
- [67:38]
A
What about on the reading front? I mean, you've touched on this. So let's get into the Lindy west of it all and then some, and then I'll read it.
- [67:45]
B
Yeah, I read a lot. I read five books this week, or I finished five books. Okay, so we'll start with Adult Braces by Lindy West. So I listened to this over the course of a few weeks. I had been seeing it pick up in the Internet dialogue and I started it though, before it got really, really intense.
- [68:07]
A
How familiar were you with her before?
- [68:10]
B
I know of her pretty well. I watched Shrill. I did not read the book. I followed her online. I've read some of her essays, for sure. The work that she's done in like the fat activism body positivity realm, like has, is very familiar to me and all things I. I deeply admire and I knew of her relationship situation.
- [68:31]
A
Okay.
- [68:31]
B
Because I had watched a very now talked about famous video. I forget the name of the series, but it's essentially this video series where people are interviewed as they are getting undressed. Uhhuh. And the three of them Basically came out as a throuple. And so this memoir, adult Braces, is about a road trip that Lindy takes cross country, but it's about how the three of them came to be. And it's controversial because her husband, Aham, essentially broke the rules of their polyamory. She didn't really want to be polyamorous in the first place. She was, I mean, some could say pressured into it. She kind of did it because she felt like it was the only choice she had is sort of what comes across. He ends up getting this girlfriend, Roya, and essentially at the end, they all become a throuple. A lot of people think that it's just disappointing. Like, the whole thing is sad. They're sad. For Lindy, it's polyamory under distress, I think, or under duress is what I've read. It's kind of like. And she even says this in the book. It's like, in order to stay in her, in her words, her fucked up marriage, she inserts herself into her husband and girlfriend's relationship, and now they're all together. Or at least that's like one of the interpretations of it, I should say. And so I think a lot of people just think, like, she deserves better. You know, she doesn't want this. She's fooling herself. There's a lot of talk. There's a lot of talk.
- [70:00]
A
What do you feel? How do you feel after reading the book?
- [70:04]
B
I mean, I feel a lot of different things. I think that there's so much in the book about sex and body image that I found really, really interesting and relatable. And I think that, you know, my friend Amanda Richards wrote this essay that's essentially about how fat women are often not believed. Like, when they say, like, I'm happy, people don't believe them. You know, people think that if you're in a larger body and you're like, I don't want to lose weight, they don't believe you. And I think there's something similar happening here where Lyndy is saying, like, I want to be in this relationship. I love Roya, I love my husband, and I'm happy in this system where I sleep in the guest bed sometimes or with them sometimes. And, you know, and I think that the thing is, it's her memoir. She said that she's happy. Like, why can't we all just be like, okay, you know, okay? And I also think that we're all telling ourselves certain things. We're all convincing ourselves of things in real time, all the Time. And anyone who says that that is not true is lying. I think what I will say is my opinion changed slightly when I saw the email that Aham sent a journalist about a profile that she wrote on them, which was incredibly aggressive, extremely rude, not warranted, and I have not read or heard great things about him in general. So that sent red flags up in a different kind of way for me. But I found the memoir so deeply vulnerable. And just like I am laying bare everything. And even at the end, she says, like, all of this may blow up in my face in 5 years and 10 years. I may look at this and everyone may think, well, told you so. But, like, as of now, this is what it is and this is my truth. And I think there's something very, very, very scary and brave about saying that. Does a part of me want better for her?
- [72:04]
A
There. There is the most cynical part of me that is like, you're breadcrumbing your future divorce memoir.
- [72:16]
B
Well, I don't know if she knows that she's doing that, but I think that could be true. But I think reading this and Strangers back to back is so interesting because I listened to adult braces and I was, like, very confident that she believes all of this, that this is the deepest, darkest thoughts that she has. This is all of the contradictions in the gray area that she exists in. It's all out there. Whereas strangers, I was like, we are floating on a surface level of wealth and drama in some ways, and one is much more digestible somehow than the other. Anyway, I could keep going. I have a lot of thoughts on both, but I think it's worth the read. And I think people are being cruel to her in a way that she does not deserve. Her husband may, but not her when it comes to Lindy. Okay, Okay, I read a lot.
- [73:08]
A
What else have you read other than adult braces? Because I'm looking at a list here.
- [73:13]
B
So I read to blurb Murder Bites by Mimi Montgomery, which is out on August 4th. And this, I read the pitch of this and I was like, I really don't think I'm going to like this. I was like, I will read it. I will consider it. But, like, I just don't think this is for me. It's like a small town cozy murder mystery about this town in South Carolina that has a reality television show about designer dogs.
- [73:42]
A
Okay.
- [73:43]
B
There's a lot happening, and I just was so absolutely surprised by this book. It is the. One of the funniest things I have ever read. It is laugh out loud Funny on every page. It's so much about, like, feeling isolated in a community and isolating ourselves from other people. And it's a true romp. Like, it is a cozy murder mystery where ridiculous things happens, but it has some of the funniest lines I have ever read. It's just completely singular, original. I loved it. It was great. I thought it was just great. I was really impressed.
- [74:17]
A
Is that the best feeling when a book surprises you?
- [74:20]
B
Yes. It was so nice, too, because I just wanted something different. And it was exactly what it was. I also read the Names by Florence Knapp, which I had had on my bookshelf for definitely more than a year now. This was everywhere at a certain point in 2024, 2025, I think it was last year.
- [74:38]
A
I have had this in my queue as well, and I have avoided it because I feel like it is too depressing for me to handle right now.
- [74:48]
B
It is very depressing. Like, you know how much I like a dark book. And it. It was borderline too sad for me. And I don't mean like in a you're crying every page kind of way. It just was, like, bleak. And this is about a woman who is in an abusive relationship and. And she has her second child and is deciding what to name him. And the story then splits off into three timelines. One where she names the child after her husband. The other where she gives him a name that his older sister picks out. And the third where she chooses the name. And so it's this kind of braided narrative of this sliding door. Such a scenario. It is. It is. I really, really liked this. It's very sad.
- [75:36]
A
Yeah.
- [75:38]
B
But it's very well written. And, you know, the only thing I'll say is that I found it a little confusing because you're reading about the same people, but in three different stories.
- [75:49]
A
Yep.
- [75:50]
B
I was also reading 16 other things, so, you know, surprise. But you're really getting through them.
- [75:55]
A
This. These last two weeks.
- [75:57]
B
I cope with the state of the world by reading what I'm doing. Okay. Then I read this story, Might Save youe Life by Tiffany Crumb, which came out recently. This is kind of billed as, like, a romance thriller comedy, which I guess it is. It is about this man and a woman who are best friends, and they host a wildly successful true crime podcast together about difficult scenarios to survive. And it's called the Story Might Save youe Life. And they have this really interesting history. It's sort of like a will they, won't they kind of vibe. And then at the Very beginning, the female co host goes missing and they have to find her. So, yeah, it is sort of this genre mashup. Like I was saying, it is 350 pages. But I sped through this. I was just flipping page after page after page. It was such an enjoyable reading experience from start to finish. I really, really liked this. Also. Then I listened to a podcast with the authority who has the most interesting story. But the part I want to tell you is that she wrote the first draft of this book in six weeks.
- [77:05]
A
Oh, I feel nauseous. I like that. I'm taking this fast drafting course and I'm like, can I write a draft in four to six months? And you're like, six weeks?
- [77:16]
B
Well, I was in the shower listening to this and I literally was like shampooing my hair and I was like, what the fuck?
- [77:21]
A
I also saw in an interview with Carol Claire Burke, who wrote yesteryear, that she wrote that in two months.
- [77:27]
B
Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. I do know.
- [77:30]
A
What jobs are these people taking and where do I get them?
- [77:33]
B
I don't know.
- [77:33]
A
What are their. Why are their brains better than mine?
- [77:36]
B
Oh, I'm not sure. But I will say with. With Tiffany, the thing that's also cool about her story is that she had been writing for 20 years. She had three novels die on submission. She wrote this in six weeks, sent it to her agent, and her agent was like, I like this, but I don't think we should work together anymore. She had to find a new agent, and then now it's a New York Times bestsel book of the month, all this stuff. So I'm really happy for her and it's a really enjoyable read. I've heard it's great on audio and I can imagine that is true.
- [78:08]
A
I'm seeing this everywhere.
- [78:11]
B
Yes, yes. Tell me what you have read.
- [78:13]
A
I only read one book, but it was great. So I read the Lost Book of Lancelot by John Glynn, which is out May 12, and this is a queer retelling of Arthurian legend, which I know nothing about. John is a friend, and I had read the first 50 pages of this while he was working on it. And I thought it was just like fantastic and such an undertaking to do a retelling of a story that has been so documented and told. And it is. I wouldn't call it quite romantasy, but it's romantasy adjacent. It has more of a magical realism vibe to it, but there is magic. The story that we're told is about Lancelot and Guinevere usually, but this is about that Lancelot met another knight in his training named Gale Hoot, and they were in love. And that was his, like, fated one true love. And this was so special. Like, it really connected me with this love, like, childhood version of myself reading adventure stories. Like, it is an adventure story and it has this magic and it just. Oh, it was so transportive. And also the language of it was so rich. The descriptions of everything. I loved this. It would not have been my normal read. And I. I really liked it.
- [79:43]
B
I have an arc of this on my shelf and I. There's something about the pitch of it where I'm like, I want to read this, I want to read this, I want to read this. It's just something about it. The, like, adventure stories, the fantasticalness. That's not a word, fantasy. It's just. There's something about it that really appeals to me. So I'm looking forward to it too.
- [80:01]
A
Yeah. And don't let it turn you off if you're not a fantasy reader. Like, this kind of straddles a line for me. Like, it doesn't feel fantasy in the way that a fourth wing does.
- [80:11]
B
It's kind of like Lady Tremaine.
- [80:13]
A
I still haven't gotten to that one.
- [80:14]
B
Oh, well, it reminds me of how you're describing it of that. And it is sort of a retelling in a way.
- [80:20]
A
So I haven't been reading that much because I have been dealing with my feelings about the world by rewatching Homeland, which is a capital C choice. That's.
- [80:33]
B
Would not advise.
- [80:34]
A
No, no.
- [80:37]
B
That's one way, you know, different strokes. We're getting through it.
- [80:42]
A
Are we?
- [80:44]
B
I think so. God, I hope so.
- [80:48]
A
Take us out, Olivia.
- [80:49]
B
Well, if you would like to read our April book club pick, we are reading Good People by Padmina Sabit. Blanket apology. I've looked this up several times. The pronunciation of her last name. And I have come to the conclusion that Sabit is correct. So there we are. But this is a novel about an Afghan American family. There is a tragedy that takes place, and you learn about what happened and their family through the perspective of dozens of different people in their community and beyond. And it has this sort of panoramic, documentary style feel. It is the ultimate page turner. But there's a lot of very meaty themes to discuss. So I'm. I'm just really looking forward to it.
- [81:35]
A
If you would like more of us or to discuss any of the topics in today's episode, you can find us in our Facebook group under batonpaper podcast we have a BFF group, which is kind of like a chat room style app. Also under BatonPaper Podcast, we are on Instagram at, you guessed it, BatonPaper Podcast. I am on Instagram eckamfreeman and my newsletter is @beccafreeman substack.com. and I have a book coming out in we just hit the six month mark and it's called Back Where We Started. It's coming out October 13th and I would be incredibly grateful if you would consider pre ordering it.
- [82:14]
B
Yes, you should do that. If you're thinking like, oh no, I'll do it in a couple months, a couple weeks. Just do it now. Just do it now. It really helps. I'm an Olivia mentor on Instagram substack.com World Wide Web, all the ways. That's where I am.
- [82:29]
A
See you next week.
- [82:31]
B
Bye.
- [82:31]
C
Bye.