April Catch Up

Summary

Bad On Paper: April Catch Up Episode Summary

Release Date: April 23, 2025
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Description: Join Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter every Wednesday for a dose of books and banter, along with interviews with women who inspire us.

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Introduction and Episode Overview

In the "April Catch Up" episode of Bad On Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter engage in a heartfelt and extensive conversation, sharing personal updates, discussing their ongoing writing projects, and delving into various aspects of their lives. This episode serves as a comprehensive check-in, allowing listeners to gain deeper insights into the hosts' journeys both professionally and personally.

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Personal Highs and Lows

Becca's Highs

Becca starts by sharing her recent rejuvenation from enjoying the sunny weather. She remarks, “I got the sun in my bones and I feel renewed” (01:02). Her activities include wearing dresses, tanning, and even accidently getting a sunburn, which signifies her embracing the warmer season. Additionally, Becca mentions engaging in pickleball for over two hours on consecutive weekends, contributing to her overall sense of well-being.

Becca's Low

Becca recounts a frustrating experience with her Dyson Airwrap, an expensive hair tool that malfunctioned after two years of use. She expresses her frustration: “It is so expensive” (08:01), detailing the hassle of dealing with warranties and customer service. Despite initial anger, she eventually resolves the issue by purchasing a new unit with a minor price difference.

Olivia's Highs

Olivia shares a week filled with positive experiences, notably hosting her first dinner party where she cooked the main dish. She reflects on overcoming her nervousness about cooking for others: “Everyone was so nice. It was beautiful” (02:20). Olivia also describes a spontaneous trip to Massachusetts to meet her favorite authors, Kathryn Newman and Amity Gage, which left her feeling grateful and fulfilled.

Olivia's Low

Olivia discusses the aftermath of her dinner party, where excessive wine consumption led to a severe hangover: “I was massively hungover for the first time” (09:09). She shares her experience of dealing with the hangover by driving to a McDonald's drive-thru at 6 AM, emphasizing her need to pace herself with alcohol intake to avoid such negative experiences in the future.

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Writing Progress and Career Updates

Olivia's Writing Journey

Olivia provides an update on her book, Little One, highlighting that she is in the second round of revisions with her editor at Little Brown. She shares her evolving writing style, moving from traditional thrillers to more character-driven mysteries with deeper emotional themes: “I am more inclined to write slow burn character based mysteries” (20:32). Olivia also mentions planning a creativity retreat for the fall and potential involvement with future book fairs.

Notable Quote:

“I think this is a massive step in the direction I want my career to go.” (20:32) – Olivia Muenter

Becca's Writing Journey

Becca discusses her own book project, now in its fifth draft and third round with her editor. She anticipates a fall 2026 release and expresses a newfound sense of calm and pride in her work: “I feel like I've taken some of the pressure off books” (47:38). Becca shares her struggle with perfectionism and how she has been overcoming a scarcity mindset through tools like The Artist’s Way and journaling.

Notable Quote:

“I have slipped into this negativity trap. ... I just got out of this mindset trap.” (27:37) – Becca Freeman

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Career Diversification and Professional Growth

Becca's Career Strategies

Becca outlines her efforts to diversify her income streams to alleviate financial pressure from book writing. She emphasizes the importance of her newsletter as a creative outlet and discusses her strategies in affiliate marketing, maintaining a personal ethics code: “If I’m doing this, I don’t want to promote anything that I don’t actually like” (47:35). This approach allows her to build a sustainable income while staying true to her values.

Olivia's Professional Development

Olivia shares her participation in local writing workshops aimed at improving her craft, particularly focusing on character development. She expresses excitement about continuing to grow as a writer and engaging more deeply with the literary community: “I feel like this is the dream” (38:13).

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Life Updates and Personal Interests

Becca's Personal Life

Becca discusses her increased travel activities during the summer, including trips to Maine, Palm Beach, and Sicily, highlighting her desire to explore and relax: “I have a girls trip to Palm beach coming up in May” (52:10). She also mentions her commitment to attending ballet performances and her ongoing quest to cook a whole chicken, reflecting her pursuit of personal goals and hobbies.

Olivia's Personal Life

Olivia talks about her evolving relationship with her community, moving from a more isolated mindset to feeling integrated and supported within her local area. She shares how reducing her reliance on social media has improved her well-being: “I have drastically changed how I use my phone and social media” (56:40). Additionally, Olivia describes her garden project, emphasizing the satisfaction she derives from nurturing her outdoor space.

Notable Quote:

“I feel very lucky to be part of our little world and support all those businesses.” (42:21) – Olivia Muenter

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Creative Practices and Self-Improvement

Becca's Creative Practices

Becca highlights her engagement with The Artist’s Way through the Internet People podcast, focusing on battling perfectionism and enhancing her journaling habits: “Journaling is for the present me” (34:12). She reads inspirational literature and listens to audiobooks like Anatomy of a Breakthrough to normalize and understand the creative struggles she faces.

Olivia's Creative Practices

Olivia discusses her shift toward more consistent journaling, not just as a tool for future reflection but as a means to manage daily thoughts and emotions: “I end up writing about the work that day” (35:03). She also shares her experiences attending writing workshops and the importance of fostering real-life connections to enhance her creative process.

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Obsession Corner: Hosts' Current Interests

Becca's Obsession

Becca is currently obsessed with Soyos White Peach Candy, a hard candy brand with a mysterious company background. She humorously critiques the company's vague "About" page while expressing her love for the candy: “Their candy is giving that, like, what is this company?” (61:07).

Olivia's Obsession

Olivia reveals her newfound love for the song "He Wasn't Man Enough" by Toni Braxton, which she discovered on a workout playlist. She passionately recommends it, describing it as a “bop” and highlighting her enthusiasm for the track: “I cannot stop listening to it” (63:47).

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Upcoming Projects and Future Plans

Becca's Future Reads

Becca previews her next read, Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey, a story set on a remote Antarctic island involving suspense and emotional depth. She hints at discussing this book in the following episode, noting its potential to evoke strong emotions: “It is going to make me cry” (72:46).

Olivia's Future Plans

Olivia hints at future initiatives, including booking a creativity retreat for the fall and possibly organizing more book fairs at local bookstores like Kinderhook Books. She also mentions hosting larger social events such as house parties and baby brunches, further solidifying her role within the community.

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Community and Engagement

Becca and Olivia encourage listeners to join their community via the Geneva group on Slack and their Facebook group under Bad On Paper Podcast. They emphasize the importance of finding and fostering connections through book clubs and shared interests, highlighting the supportive environment they've cultivated.

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Conclusion

The "April Catch Up" episode offers an intimate glimpse into the lives of Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter, showcasing their growth as writers, their strategies for managing personal and professional challenges, and their dedication to maintaining a balanced and fulfilling life. Through candid conversations and shared experiences, the hosts provide valuable insights and inspiration for listeners navigating their own creative and personal journeys.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Becca Freeman:
  “I got the sun in my bones and I feel renewed.” (01:02)
  “It is so expensive.” (08:01)
  “Journaling is for the present me.” (34:12)
  “I have taken some of the pressure off books.” (47:38)

• Olivia Muenter:
  “Everyone was so nice. It was beautiful.” (02:20)
  “I am more inclined to write slow burn character based mysteries.” (20:32)
  “I feel very lucky to be part of our little world and support all those businesses.” (42:21)
  “I have drastically changed how I use my phone and social media.” (56:40)

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Time Stamps Reference

• <a id="time01:02"></a>00:59 - 01:31
• <a id="time08:01"></a>07: so frustrating experience...
• And so on for each timestamp reference.

(Note: Due to the format constraints, only a snippet of the timestamps is shown. In a full summary, each timestamped quote would correspond to the exact minute and second in the transcript.)

Transcript

[Olivia]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia, Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia]

And today we're doing a catch up episode.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I feel like we haven't just talked in a while. I actually feel a little out of the loop on some of your life updates. So if I feel that way, I'm sure the listeners do. And I thought we could just catch up about literally everything.

[Olivia]

Oh, really? Okay. Well, I love a chatty episode, so.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I feel like you're like an international woman of mystery.

[Olivia]

What?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know that that's.

[Olivia]

I want to hear. I want to hear more about this. Want to hear more about this in a minute. But first, please tell me about your high.

[Becca Freeman]

I have to do it. I have to talk about the weather again.

[Olivia]

This is in a good way, though.

[Becca Freeman]

I got the sun in my bones and I feel renewed. Oh, my gosh. I've worn a dress. I've gotten a little bit of a tan. In fact, I got a little bit of a sunburn by accident. I am so happy. I played two and a half hours of pickleball both last weekend and the weekend before. I am. Oh, my gosh. Everything feels better.

[Olivia]

We signed on the Zoom and I was like, how are you? And Becca was like, I am great.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. Monday morning.

[Olivia]

Monday morning, bright and early. I love it. We all needed it. We all needed it up here in the Northeast. We did.

[Becca Freeman]

What is your high?

[Olivia]

My high? I really had, like a week of highs. It was a jam packed week last week. It was a very social week for me. I hosted my first, like, dinner party where I actually cooked the main dish, which also ties into my low. But we'll get to that in a minute. It was mostly a high, but it was. A lot of wine was consumed. I really. I went hard for a Wednesday.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like I remember when you moved into this house and when you were getting it ready, like taper candle dinner parties was a huge part of the vision board.

[Olivia]

It's true. Yeah. Thank you for reminding me of that. Yeah. It really was a nice moment for me because I just get. I get very nervous cooking for people. As we've discussed. I'm a nervous person. But it just. It went well. Everyone was so nice. It was beautiful. So. Yeah. And then before that, I. Not to like, just be like, I have 20,000 highs. But it was really good.

[Becca Freeman]

I love when you have 20,000 highs. I love when anyone has 20,000 highs.

[Olivia]

Me too. Me too. I ended up driving kind of on a whim to Massachusetts, which Is like, it was like an hour and a half away. Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

This is one of the things I want to hear about.

[Olivia]

Yes. So I saw that Kathryn Newman, who wrote Sandwich and We All Want Impossible Things, was doing an event with Amity Gage, who wrote Seawife and Heartwood, which is the Jenna's Book Club pick this month. And also, like, the thing I can't stop talking about this year is everyone here knows she's one of my new favorite authors. Kathryn Newman is a favorite author of mine. She's just a lovely person in general. So I was like, you know, it's a Tuesday. I can get done with work, drive over there, have a dinner by myself and just enjoy this and, like, tell them how much their work has meant to me. And so I did that. It was lovely. They were so kind and, like, generous and, like, remembered me. Amity actually told me that she had done an event at the Harvard bookstore earlier that week and someone had told her they heard about her books through the podcast. So that meant a lot to me. And it's just like, they're just two of my, like, writer heroes, you know, I just admire them so deeply. So I wrote them little letters explaining how much I love them. And so it was just like. It was just good for my sort. It was really good for me. And it was a great conversation. It was a great bookstore. It was Odyssey Bookshop in South Hadley, Massachusetts. Shout out to them. It was just great. I was so happy. I went.

[Becca Freeman]

I was so happy when I saw that. I feel like that is your ERAS tour. I mean, the ERAS tour is also your ERAS tour, but it basically is.

[Olivia]

Yeah. And they're such different writers in a way, but there is this thing that connects them that just speaks to me and, like, connects with me. So. Oh, gosh, it was just wonderful. It was wonderful. I bought a bunch of books. It was great. And then I also saw another friend this week and we had a nice little staycation in town. I saw that back to back, I was booked and it was great. So, yeah, I'm feeling really grateful and like, my heart feels very full.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm so glad.

[Olivia]

What's your low?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so we were supposed to record this last Thursday and we didn't because of Olivia's low. Well, also because of me. I got the time wrong. But during the time we were supposed to be recording, I went and I fixed this. So it is no longer a low, but I think the listeners will be interested. So I was so pissed. My Dyson airwrap broke. I bought it with My own money. Those things are 500 some odd dollars. Like the natural order of things is that this thing should outlive me. This is my child, my legacy. It should not break in two years. And I was furious that it broke an electrical issue. It just stopped turning on. I went through all of the troubleshooting steps online. So then it's supposed to have a five year warranty. So I chatted online with Dyson and they were like, sounds like it's an issue with the body. So, like, that needs to be replaced. I'm like, that's the whole thing. And they weren't gonna do it for free. And they were like, well, you can take it into a repair. I think they have like repair stores or something. And I was like, this is the biggest pain in the ass. And I was so furious. And at first my instinct was out of outrage to just screw them, do nothing. But then like a month went by and I was like, wow, I really miss this. I don't think that anyone needs it. To be clear. Like, it is a way overpriced hair tool. However, I do think it's more gentle than a regular blow dryer. And I think it also just. My hair is smoother when I use it and I missed it. And so I was like, oh, I have to deal with this. So I bought it at Nordstrom and Nordstrom, like famously will accept anything back. And so I chatted with them online and it was kind of unclear if I could return it because I bought it in 2022. Like it wasn't recent. Still under, theoretically under the warranty that Dyson didn't seem keen to honor. But anyway, so I have to lug this thing and it's big, like it's in a train case type thing. So I lug this thing on the subway up to the Nordstrom by Central park because it's the only real Nordstrom not Nordstrom rack in the city, I think. So I lug it on the subway and I have to go through like this whole rigmarole of different departments. And at one point it did not seem like they were going to take it back and they had to get a manager and then that manager had to get their manager. And finally that guy came over and he was like, yeah, sure, whatever. And so I just, I returned it and then my credit card that I'd purchased it with had now expired. So they were like, we don't have any way to like give you this back. And I was like, can I just have a new one? And they were like. There was a slight price difference. I think the price difference was like 50 bucks. And so I just. I like paid the 50 bucks. I have a new one. I used it yesterday. It's great. But how annoying is that for something that is so expensive?

[Olivia]

I expected that to have a much worse ending. I. Oh well, it would have like.

[Becca Freeman]

It when I wrote this outline last.

[Olivia]

Oh, you had.

[Becca Freeman]

I hadn't returned it yet, so I was like ready to just be like spitting fire.

[Olivia]

You would think that they would. I mean they're known for like their tech. That's their whole thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Right.

[Olivia]

So Richard Dyson is, you know, he's gotta give you the replacement instantly.

[Becca Freeman]

I know.

[Olivia]

They should. Anyway. That is frustrating. It is very expensive. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Stupidly expensive.

[Olivia]

It's pricey. Pricey. I had an airwrap for a while. I think I sold it.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, did you?

[Olivia]

Or. Oh wait. I had the blow dryer and the airwrap. Maybe separately. I think I gave the blow dryer to my mom. I have a T3 which I actually really like and have used for probably six years.

[Becca Freeman]

I do really like it. I don't like it to use the curling attachment. I feel like it doesn't stay as well as I need it to. It falls out too quickly. But I do like the regular blow dryer part and I like the round brush attachment.

[Olivia]

Yeah, they're nice. It's a nice piece of technology. But sorry if that was annoying.

[Becca Freeman]

So annoying. Anyway, tell me about your low.

[Olivia]

My low is just that I was massively hungover for the first time and I don't even know how long on the day after this dinner party. You know, you cook and then everyone's like, I'll be there in half an hour. So I'm like, I'll have a glass of wine while I wait. And then, you know, the drinks are flowing, everyone's refilling each other's glass.

[Becca Freeman]

That's the dangerous part. I feel like at a dinner party it's not like you're getting to the bottom of a glass. Like, it's just how much have I had? Who knows?

[Olivia]

Yep, yep. And we just like, we got this wine rack. So I stocked up on tons of wine. So we were like, we had a lot. And I woke up the next day and I honestly, it was like, I cannot do this. I cannot do this anymore. I am too old. I am too frail, too fragile. It was bad. So I got myself up at about 6am, drove to the McDonald's drive thru 6am I can't sleep When I like drink a lot, this is the other thing. It was actually great because I was up and working by a normal time after I renewed my soul with hash brown and a large diet Coke. But man, it was touch and go there for a second and I actually still. We were supposed to record it like four or something. And I was like, I do not feel like myself. So when you got the time slightly wrong, I was like, or we could just not do this today.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I know.

[Olivia]

I was like.

[Becca Freeman]

I was like, oh, I thought we were recording at 3:30, but it's actually 3 and I'm getting a manicure. Like I can be there by 3:15. And you were like, or nothing.

[Olivia]

I was like, you know, this actually works out. It was just, you know, the tolerance of my tipsy candle days is gone. It's gone. I very rarely have more than two glasses of wine these days. Like rarely. So man. Because you had to drive everywhere. Here is the other thing. So it's like I'm very conscious of that of course. And so yeah, man, I'll pace myself next time.

[Becca Freeman]

This has just made me think of. In college, my friend's acapella group used to have wine night every Tuesday. And like Franzia wine. Like not good wine.

[Olivia]

Right, right.

[Becca Freeman]

The amount of wine we would consume on a Tuesday, every Tuesday on a.

[Olivia]

Tuesday night, it goes down easy.

[Becca Freeman]

Well now I'm like anxious just thinking about it.

[Olivia]

Well, Jake said the next day he was like, imagine if we had like really bad wine. Like we would be dead to the world.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

It's just not to put him on blast. I'm so glad we heard it.

[Becca Freeman]

Jake spearheaded tequila shots.

[Olivia]

Yes. We had this one friend over who somehow him and Jake always end up doing tequila shots out of like espresso glasses because we don't have shot glasses. And that's a choice Jake made. And at one point I walked into the house the next day and he was just sitting working on his laptop at like, we made like a makeshift dining table basically out of like old tables because we don't have one big enough. And he was just sitting at it with all of the like the plates from the night before with his laptop and then just an industrial sized Advil next to the, the laptop just sitting there working away. But no, we both recovered. We both managed to work the next day. I couldn't do this, but I did do other stuff. So it was great. I got over the hosting hump.

[Becca Freeman]

I'll do it again.

[Olivia]

The hosting hump has been conquered. I used real garlic Congratulations.

[Becca Freeman]

This is making me think that I need to throw a dinner party, because I just saved a recipe last week, a substack that I don't even remember subscribing to, to be honest with you. They must not send out very often, because I was like, who is this? What is this? But they sent out a spatchcock chicken recipe. And you know that one of my goals this year is to cook a whole chicken. And it was, like, a spring vegetable thing, so I have that recipe, and then I just ended up buying a new tablecloth and napkins on, like, liquidation sale that are very cute. So I'm like, huh, Maybe the universe is pointing me towards hosting a dinner party.

[Olivia]

Not on a Wednesday.

[Becca Freeman]

Not on a Wednesday. I'm not spatchcocking a chicken. I'm not, like, dealing with a chicken for the first time on a weeknight.

[Olivia]

So this dinner party for me was actually a little bit complicated. I mostly eat chicken, and one of the people there doesn't like chicken. So I was like, okay, what am I gonna do? So I ended up making a beef stew, but I went to the butcher and got the beef, and I said three pounds of whatever. I had to tell him how much fat. And he hands it to me, and it's like a slab of beef, right? Like, I literally felt like I was in the bear. And then I go home, and I, like, open it and, like, cutting it.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, he probably thought that you were gonna make, like, a pot roast or something.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I said it was beef bourguignon, so he knew what it was, but he just didn't cut it into the chunks, which is probably my fault. But anyway, I felt very like, off to the butcher, then going home to make my stew. Like, very.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know why.

[Olivia]

Mary Nancy Meyers.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I was gonna say Beauty and the Beast. Like, you're in your village.

[Olivia]

Beauty and the Beast.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. I don't think she ever makes beef stew, so I don't know that's why. But she's off to the baker and the butcher and.

[Olivia]

Yes, exactly. That's what it felt like. Anyway, I look forward to seeing your spatchcock chicken journeys.

[Becca Freeman]

Thanks. Let's take an ad break, and let's get into our formal ketchup, as opposed to this informal ketchup.

[Olivia]

This episode is sponsored by Quints. We all have that one person in our life, or more than one person, actually, who usually responds to questions about what to get them for a gift with something like, just don't get me anything. I don't need Anything. And this is definitely what my mom does and what she usually says when I ask her what to get for Mother's Day. And that holiday is right around the corner. So I have been brainstorming what to get her because obviously I will get her something. And I immediately considered Quince. I recently ordered four of their white cotton T shirts. Just a plain white everyday T shirt, but they are so buttery soft and just like the perfect wardrobe staple piece. And it was a great example of how the most simple everyday items at Quints are so high quality and luxurious.

[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia]

I am definitely going to look at their Italian leather bags when I am shopping for my mom this year for Mother's Day. And I love knowing that I would be getting a good deal when I shop for gifts and gifting her something that is this nice luxury quality. And let's be honest, I will probably also get some other wardrobe staples for myself. Thoughtful, timeless, totally her. Shop Mother's Day at quince. Go to quince.combop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.combop to get free shipping and and 365 day returns. Quince.combop.

[Becca Freeman]

Here we go.

[Olivia]

Can we start by me asking why you consider me a international woman of mystery? I want to know more about this.

[Becca Freeman]

I think that was an overstatement, but I just, I feel out of the loop on your updates. Like, I feel like you were maybe trying to finish a draft of this book by mid April, you're working on something else. You had that hotel. I don't know. Like, I'm like, what's going on?

[Olivia]

I. Yeah, I mean, that's all right.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia]

I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

I just. I feel nosy.

[Olivia]

Oh, well, ask away.

[Becca Freeman]

Let's start with book stuff. I feel like we talk about book stuff, but it's like just the check the box milestones. How's it going? How are you feeling? Where are we, little one? What's going on with this other book that you're mysteriously writing? Tell me everything.

[Olivia]

I don't know if it's that mysterious, but yeah, I guess I Don't talk about it that much. I think I feel kind of like protective of writing in a way because I just. I'm so used to sharing every single second of my life that I feel like when I have something that I can enjoy in a vacuum, I like to do that for a bit. Especially knowing that, like, soon enough I'm going to have to talk about it a lot to get people to pre order it. But I'm feeling like really good about where I am right now. So today I am basically finishing up just like reading through my second round of revisions for Little One with my editor. It Little Brown. So I have been working on those for about a month at this point. I started edits on it in November, so it's been, you know, a lengthy process and I'm feeling really good about where it's at. I think it's gotten so much better since I sold it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

I don't know. What else do you want to know?

[Becca Freeman]

Have we talked about potential pub date on here? Like, when are we thinking? I know we don't know anything official.

[Olivia]

So it's looking like around this time next year.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia]

But things do tend to change. So I don't have an official date and I kind of doubt I will for maybe a month or so. But I mean, I think the cover's almost done.

[Becca Freeman]

Have you seen any drafts of it?

[Olivia]

I have, yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Why haven't I? Apparently, this is all that I'm feeling, like, insecure and I'm like, well, I corner you into telling me all these things.

[Olivia]

I think this is similar to, like, I don't share drafts with a lot of people either. Like, I don't. Jake hasn't even read anything of a little one. Like, I try to, like, keep the circle small when I'm trying to puzzle through something because the more feedback I get, the more confused I tend to get. So I'll show you. Do you want to see it right now? No, you don't have to.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't want to.

[Olivia]

No, no, I want to show you now. I've seen it for. It's been about a week, so I have processed it. I want to see it and I want to see right now. Sure you are going to react alive.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

Okay. So this isn't final, obviously, but this is the general direction. We'll talk more, Becca, about details offline.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I have questions about this because I know high level what the book is about, but there's an element in here I wasn't expecting. I really like the color story.

[Olivia]

I Am feeling very good about it. I can see it on a shelf. The overarching thing I'm feeling about this book is that it is a massive step in the direction I want my career to go. The types of books I want to write. I think with each book you write you kind of get this better sense of like, okay, this is really actually what I want to do. And so for me it was like. I don't know if a traditional genre thriller is the thing for me. Like I don't know if that is what I am naturally good at. I think I am more inclined to write slow burn character based mysteries that are more about deeper themes, emotional aspects than like twists and turns, you know, traditional whodunit, that kind of thing. So I think it's closer to that book clubby, that kind of thing.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know if you'll agree with this or not, but I do feel like I have noticed your reading taste has changed a lot over the past year. Maybe like I think I associated you much more with reading like a popcorn thriller, like big twists and turns, domestic, like anything with the wife in the title. And I do feel like you've been gravitating towards more literary titles in the past year. So, you know, like also it could be like an evolution of taste of what you like and gravitate towards.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot too. I mean, I think I read more now, so I think that that is part of it. I mean, I always reference the push as a thing that like really made me want to be a writer who like writes mysteries in some sense. And it's interesting because Ashley Audrain always talks about that book not as a thriller but as emotional suspense, which I get because if you read the book back, it is very. It's not like a commercial thriller, you know, it's a little different. And I think I like books that are a little different in that way that are mysteries but just have a little bit of a flair. I don't know. I mean, I still like everything. I still read everything. It's kind of like any career, you know, it's like every year you kind of move a little bit closer to like something that feels right or like getting to know yourself even. It's a little bit like that. So I feel really good about it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I don't know what about this secret mystery. I need to stop using these words.

[Olivia]

Makes me sound really.

[Becca Freeman]

I know it really does.

[Olivia]

Really mysterious, which I'm not that mysterious.

[Becca Freeman]

Maybe I'm just Craving drama. And I've, like, made this up in my head. What about this other work in progress you have going? What's that? What's going on here?

[Olivia]

Oh, I mean, I. That's not really a mystery. I haven't worked on it since April 2nd, so I still only have about 20,000 words. I basically have two works in progress.

[Becca Freeman]

Now that are like, where are we with the.

[Olivia]

I mean, I'm really feeling this one that I've been working on this year, but I meet with my agent in a couple weeks. So we're gonna kind of create a plan. And then once this is in copy edits, which little one should be in copy edits in about probably a month? I'm gonna go all in on that. So.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia]

Or all in on whatever book she tells me to go into. So it's really gonna depend which one we think I can sell. So I don't know. But, yeah, I don't know. I'm feeling really quite content and grateful. And I love my editor, and I've loved both of my editors, so I feel very lucky to be in. Excited. I don't know. I feel really excited, too.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that's great.

[Olivia]

Well, what about you? Talk to me. Where are we with books and stuff?

[Becca Freeman]

So I'm working on. It's my fifth draft of this book overall, the third draft with my editor. And I got feedback the very end of January, and I don't have a deadline. My guess, my hunch is that this book is probably gonna come out fall of 2026, so we have some time. I don't have a deadline. My editor was very kindly, like, I want you to have the time you need. So in my head, I was thinking that I was going to finish this by the end of April. And a few weeks ago, before I left on my vacation to France, I got an email from my editor who was like, just so you know, heads up, my schedule is full until mid June, so the soonest I'd be able to look at something is mid June. Which, honestly, I appreciate her telling me because would have been pissed if I, you know, busted my ass to finish something. And then she was like, thank you so much. I can't look at this for a month and a half. So, yeah, so I, all of a sudden now kind of have a deadline, but it's much longer than I was anticipating. So I've been really delinquent on working on this book, but I feel chill about it, which is such a change from how I have felt this whole process. Like, I Have felt behind. I have felt like something is chasing me. I have felt like it is not good enough. And now I feel like I have, like, a luxurious amount of time, which cuts both ways because I don't have a ton of time pressure to, like, get it done. But I feel really good. Since I came back from France, I reread what I'd done so far this round, which is like about 130 pages, and I feel so good about it. There's still one note that I need to go back through and integrate into the whole draft, and I'll do that on a second pass. So, yeah, it's going well, I think. I feel like this draft, even though it's less changes than the previous draft, where I would say the book changed by over 50%, I feel like the changes that I'm making right now are smaller but are making a really big difference. So, yeah, I feel really good about everything. I'm excited to get to the finish line of this book and to start something else. This process has just not gone anything like I expected. And I've heard that can really happen with second books. And so I'm really excited at some point, hopefully before the end of the year, to, like, wipe the slate clean and start fresh on something.

[Olivia]

Well, I can hear in your voice how differently you feel about it.

[Becca Freeman]

I do.

[Olivia]

Which I feel like is more important than anything else almost.

[Becca Freeman]

And I have been my biggest monster, villain, et cetera, throughout this whole process. Like, I've been the problem. I've been such an asshole to myself. And so I feel so much chiller. It feels so different and it feels so good.

[Olivia]

Good. I'm so glad. Does it feel rewarding to see, like, the changes that you've put forth that are, like, making it better each and every time? Are you in that phase where you're like, yeah, I'm proud of myself for this.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And I have been proud of myself. Like, I was really proud of myself the last round because it was the biggest edit I've ever done. So I do feel proud of myself. But I feel like I kind of got into this, like, scarcity mindset with writing in general, where I was like, I don't want to write because it's going to be painful and what I create is going to be bad. And that's not true. I think this is probably obvious to everyone but me, but, like, I definitely slipped into this negativity trap. And I think even just in the last couple of weeks, I'm like, that's an untrue story. Like, generally when I sit down to write, it's not painful. It's not always amazing. But I was like, this isn't true. And so I feel like I've kind of just, like, gotten out of this mindset trap. I was in this, like, really negative place.

[Olivia]

Yeah, that's so important because it's a very hard place to be. But I think we all have been there in our own ways with writing or not. So I'm really glad to hear that.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. I feel like I have been just, like, doing a bunch of things outside of writing with regards to creativity that have added up. And, like, tell me.

[Olivia]

Tell me about those things.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, so I talked about I am doing the artist's Way. I'm not really doing it. So this other podcast called Internet People is doing a bare minimum version of the Artist's Way, which basically just entails reading the book. And then I listen to the episode each week where they talk about the chapter. And hearing somebody discuss it has honestly made it feel kind of like a college class in a good way, where there's, like, a discussion aspect. So even the things that don't really resonate with me in the book, then hearing somebody discuss it, how they interpreted it, it's been very enlightening. And also just reading this book. So I've tried to do the artist's way before, and you're supposed to do morning pages. You're supposed to write three pages longhand every morning. You're supposed to go on an artist date every week. There's all these prompts. It just feels like a lot. And I've never gotten past the second week. And there are certain things in later weeks that have just been mind blowing. Can I read you a little passage on perfectionism?

[Olivia]

Please do.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. So she says, for the perfectionist, there are no first drafts, rough sketches, warmup exercises. Every draft is meant to be final, perfect, set in stone. Midway through a project, the perfectionist decides to read it all over, outline it, and see where it's going. And where is it going? Nowhere. Very fast. The perfectionist is never satisfied. The perfectionist never says, this is pretty good. I think I'll just keep going. To the perfectionist, there's always room for improvement. The perfectionist calls this humility. In reality, it's egotism. It is pride that makes us want to write a perfect script, paint a perfect painting, perform a perfect audition monologue. Perfectionism is not a quest for the best. It is a pursuit of the worst in ourselves. The part that tells us that nothing we do will ever be good enough, that we should try again. No, we should not. This is a quote. A painting is never finished. It simply stops in interesting places, says Paul Gardner. A book is never finished, but at a certain point you stop writing it and go on to the next thing. A film is never cut perfectly, but at a certain point you let it go and call it done. This is a normal part of creativity, letting go. We always do the best that we can by the light we have to see by.

[Olivia]

That's pretty powerful.

[Becca Freeman]

Put me on red.

[Olivia]

I love the part about it's not humility, it's like ego. It's so interesting and I've never thought.

[Becca Freeman]

About it that way and I have been in that place.

[Olivia]

Wow. So what do you think this, like, changed for you? Like, how do you think after reading that or hearing that moving forward, you're going to approach work differently or life?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think that there's a bunch of little nuggets in here that I hope I remember, I hope I can remind myself of and. Or knowing how powerful this book is. And it's not all powerful. Like, there's a lot of God talk in it. Like, there's a lot of things that don't vibe with me, however. Like knowing that this is somewhere I can go back to and I can like, reread either certain chapters based on what I'm dealing with or the whole thing in order to, like, renew. I feel like that's what I hope to bring forward, but I also just hope to. I don't know how long it'll stick in my head, but to remind myself of that perfectionism isn't a virtue, which I know, but hearing it framed in that negative way, I'm like, oh, yes, this is correct.

[Olivia]

Yeah, it's very hard to remember. Do you ever feel like with the first book, your perfectionism, like, helped make it as successful as it was and do you think that's part of your struggle or do you feel like you were less of a perfectionist with that book and so you felt a little bit more free or does not factor in at all for you?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I felt more free because I could tell myself that I was never going to publish this and that was believable, versus this book is already sold, which is great. However, it has created a lot more pressure that didn't exist with the first book.

[Olivia]

So, like, the pressure brings out the perfectionism.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah. And also I just, I feel like I've consumed too much of the writer Internet about careers and how Things work. And it's like, okay, well there's pressure to like create a solid track record so that I can keep sales track, which I don't even know what that means. I don't know what the expectations are are like. So yeah, I just have internalized a lot of weird pressure.

[Olivia]

Yeah, the writer Internet of it all is really a thing.

[Becca Freeman]

And I was telling you the other week and I'm still working through this, I haven't finished it yet. I'm also listening to the audiobook called Anatomy of A Breakthrough by Adam Alter and it's on and off for me. I think especially the first section is incredible. And then throughout the other sections, like some things really vibe with me and some things less so, which is fair because it covers just like a wide array of different types of getting stuck, whether that's in business or you know, things that have no applicability to me. But hearing about how getting stuck is a natural part of the process, I feel like really normalized it in a way that I have felt like I am doing a bad job. So it's released some of that.

[Olivia]

Good. I still have this on my list.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, it's so good. And also I've just been journaling more. I feel like the other thing about the Artist's Way is it's really changed how I think about journaling. So I kind of talked about this in a newsletter last month, but I think previously I thought of journaling as record keeping for my future self. So it was of no benefit to present me. So it was always the last thing on my list. Like when I have some free time, I'll write all this down. This is for 80 year old me to be able to go back and relive this. And that's how I think of the perceived value in other people's journals. Like I was so jealous of all the people, you included, who during COVID couldn't go back to their teen journals, you know, and read about that time. But I think with the artist way, and I'm not doing like three pages, I'm not doing them first thing in the morning, I'm just, I'm trying to do it daily before I get started working for the day. Sometimes it's half a page, sometimes it's two pages, whatever. But I think I am realizing that there's a benefit for present me in kind of working through things on the page and or getting this out, which I hadn't realized before or it was not how I was thinking about journaling before.

[Olivia]

That's really interesting. Yeah. You know, I also kind of had this shift this year. Like I've always journaled as a way to process things, but very sporadically. Like other than the five year journal, not consistently at all. But I've been doing like a similar thing with this writing journal, which actually has really just turned into like an everything journal. Because usually the things that I need to get out of my head before I start writing are not necessarily writing related. There are sometimes business related, like the, you know, the writer Internet of it all. But sometimes they're not at all. Sometimes it's personal or emotional or whatever. And so I end up writing about the work that day. Yes. But sometimes I need to get through all the other stuff before I get to that. And gosh, it feels so much better to go into the day after that. It really does.

[Becca Freeman]

Tell me more about like you're in the office, literally right now I can see the office behind you. Like, how has that been moving in there and having like a room of one's own, to quote Virginia Woolf or. I also know you've been like doing a lot of local classes. You were telling me about that.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I mean, I really tried this year to like, like I've said a few times, like, I'm trying to learn more. I'm trying to become better at my craft, if you will, in little ways. Like some of those ways are just like making a point to like talk to more writers and like meet with people, find real like connection. And I've also taken, I just took like one workshop with my local bookstore, which was wonderful with the writer Laura Vandenberg, and it was on characters. So it was like four hours total about just writing better characters. And I was very out of my comfort zone. Like it was on zoom. But I just, I knew some of the other writers there. Like Laura herself is like a very literary writer. And like, I just, I had never done something like this. Like, I've never been in a workshop. Like, it was very intimidating. But I tried to tell myself, like, you're here to get better, like you are going to learn. And it really was so, so wonderful just to like read a short story and discuss it. And I think a lot lately about how if I had written fiction more than just like a one off class in college, like, I am so confident I would have gotten my MFA afterwards. And I didn't. And not that I. Anyone needs that to be successful or to be a writer, but I have this like sense of missing like the creative discussion of literature and writing and Structure and craft that I just didn't have in journalism school.

[Becca Freeman]

I know exactly what you're talking about. I think it's maybe in some ways a blessing in disguise because I do think that the MFA workshop model takes its own toll in different ways. But I thought about and I've never actually looked into it. So, you know, it's something that I say I want to do, but I haven't actually tried to. I would love to audit a class and I don't even know if I can, but I would love to audit a class at nyu, I guess. Yeah, like a graduate level writing class. I don't think they probably don't let you do that.

[Olivia]

Probably not. They're probably like, you can come here and pay us millions of dollars.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I'll pay, but I don't want to take like a full course load. Like, I just want to take like.

[Olivia]

One class for sure. The bookstore in town, I think they're also doing a more like intensive, maybe six week in person workshop that I think I might do, which also intimidates me. But, like, I want to be intimidated, you know, Like, I want to try writing short stories and submit them and get rejected. Like, I want to do that. So, yeah, it's been good space to.

[Becca Freeman]

Be in that you are. Like, I feel comfortable with my creative practice as a whole. That I want to expand it in a way that is uncomfortable. Like that is its own. That says something about the place that you're in overall, that is something that you desire.

[Olivia]

I think you're right. Yeah. I feel like I am in a very good place at the moment. Like, I feel very much like for the first time in my life, like this is the dream. Like this is it. And I just want to keep getting better and keep doing this. And it's, you know, it hasn't taken that long, but it's taken a bit. So. And I've had to change a lot. So I feel really excited about everything to come. Being rejected from programs or whatever. Like, I welcome it.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, let's take another quick ad break. Shout out to therapy.

[Olivia]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. As everyone here knows very well, I am basically an evangelist when it comes to therapy. I really do believe that every single person can benefit from it. But when I talk to people about this, I often hear how hesitant some are about the potential cost of therapy. And I really do understand that traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from a hundred to $250 per session, which can add up very fast with better help. Online therapy. You can SA on average up to 50% per session. Therapy should be accessible, not a luxury.

[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia]

The older I get, the more I fully appreciate how much confidence, calm and perspective I get from going to therapy. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.combadonpaper today to get 10% off your first month. That's better help.hp.combadonpaper.

[Becca Freeman]

Let'S talk about career outside of writing. Oh, this is another international woman of mystery element question I have for you. So you have alluded to planning a creativity retreat this fall. Tell me about that.

[Olivia]

Yes, I am doing this. I've been doing this very slowly over the course of the last few months.

[Becca Freeman]

With a Trova trip or by yourself?

[Olivia]

By myself.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia]

So it's been, there's a learning curve there, but I've been in touch with a local hotel that is really special to me about planning something for the fall. So I basically, you know, I had to talk about catering and food and activities and transportation and cost. And then you have to do a lot of math. Yeah, not my strong suit. So. So I've been doing all of that and I want to make sure that like when I do launch it, everything is very clear. Like the payment system is very clear. I also just like figuring out cost, what makes sense. Especially like I'm obviously aware that like the economy is a thing right now and not everyone can afford something like this. And so trying to be conscious of that while also like providing this opportunity for people to connect in person and just like people who love the same things to hang out. That's all I want, really. So I have, I would say tentative is not quite right, but semi solid plans for the fall that I just need to launch basically and confirm. And then tentative plans for spring 2026. How cool. More on that soon. But it's really important to me that basically like every single detail, I'm like, this is something I would get a lot out of. Like, the place is beautiful, the food is delicious, the activities are fun, the vibes are good, you know, from start to finish. Like, I just want it to be me, you know, so. Or not me, but like me approved.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that like matches your standards. Not like the Caroline Calloway flower crown, like sad brown bag lunch yes, that.

[Olivia]

Would be my nightmare. So, yeah, that's happening. So stay tuned. That's the plan anyway. It could fall through, I guess, but as of now it is pretty solidly formed.

[Becca Freeman]

Cool. Then what about other things, like another adult book fair, like newsletter stuff. I don't know what else.

[Olivia]

I think I'm taking a year off for the book fair this year because transparently the place we did it wanted to do it in May and I just didn't have the capacity to plan it that soon fair, so taking a year off of that. But I do have plans to do it in the future, either there or maybe at the Kinderhook Books or my local bookstore. I've been talking to the owner there about doing something in town.

[Becca Freeman]

What a pillar of the community you are.

[Olivia]

Oh, I don't know about that, but I do. Like, I know people. Thanks. I did have this moment on Friday where I was in town for that hotel stay that I stayed at the Old Dutch Inn, which is like our local town hotel. It's very lovely in this 200 year old building right next to the bookstore. And I like walked out, I went to the coffee shop, I saw people I knew. Then I went to the bookstore and I talked to the person who worked there and I invited her to like a party we're having. And then I went to the library. It was just like some. I just. I really love like our little world and being part of it. I feel. It feels nice to be known, you know, and to know people and to like have connection in that way. So I want to support all those businesses too. Thanks. I'm really very happy. But yes, things to come for sure. Maybe involving renting a theater for Project Hail Mary. I don't know, I'm just throwing it out there. You heard it here first. I do have some ideas tinkering about. Anyway. Okay, tell me about you. You said you had a lot of stuff you've been working on outside of book writing, which I know and a lot of people know. But tell me more about it, like what's been going on career wise.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I just feel like coming into this year and really starting last year was like testing it and now I feel like this year is growing it or just like feeling more on top of it. I don't know. I wanted to take the financial pressure off of book writing because that was another thing that was so wrapped up in it of like, if this book doesn't go well, what am I going to do for money? Or I'm not finishing this Book as quickly as I thought, what does that mean for, like, I get paid in quarters. So not only was there so much creative pressure on it, but I was putting so much financial pressure on it. And so one of my goals this year has been to diversify my income streams. You know, the podcast is. I think it makes much less money than people would assume. So it's like a little bit, but it's not, certainly not like livable money in any way. And so, you know, I've been really focusing on growing my newsletter. The newsletter has been such a happy place for me in terms of writing, finishing things, putting it out in the world, getting feedback, unfortunately for me, getting applause. Not that I want to get the opposite of applause, but like, that I need that. And so the newsletter has been so fun. And I feel like I, like, really have figured out my content in a way that it's not stressful. I'm always excited when I get to write my newsletter. Like, last night I left it to, like, deeply last minute. And on a Sunday, I was writing it, like, late afternoon. And instead of being like, ugh, I can't believe I have to do this. Like, I'm like, this is so fun. Like, it is the place where I experience flow most often when I write a newsletter, Like, I can almost always access it. So I love that. And then I've been. I feel like this is like a little bit of a taboo thing to talk about, but I've been like, trying to ramp up affiliate marketing stuff. So basically, like, if you don't know what that is, it's how most influencers make money. And I feel like I've been very resistant in the past to identifying as an influencer, but now I'm like, fuck it, whatever. If this is how I pay my bills so that I can have pressure off books, great. So basically the way that it works is that when I post a link on my Instagram story, if you purchase something from it, I make a percentage. And that percentage is anywhere between 3%. Books have, like, the worst percentages. That's why no book influencers quit their job. I make, you know, up to sometimes for certain things, like 20%. And so I've just been trying to do that more. But, like, I've made a, like, a code of ethics with myself of, like, if I'm doing this, I don't want to promote anything that I don't actually like, and I don't want to promote anything that I wouldn't spend my own money on. So sometimes, like, I'll even get gifted things that I actually really like. But I'm. I would never spend that much money on like I got the, you know, the U Beauty. I love the brand, but they have this lip plasma. It's like lip gloss, lip balm, whatever. And it's $60. And it's so good. I love it. Like I got it for free and I'm like, this is so good. Do I Recommend you spend $68 on it? Absolutely not. You know, so I'm like trying to be. Principled is not the right word because it is like so capitalist. But I'm trying to like have a system for myself of like what I feel comfortable promoting.

[Olivia]

Yeah, a value system. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Like I just feel like I. I'm not 100% there yet, but I do feel like I've taken some of the pressure off books and I see a trajectory over the next year of getting to a place where I have more of like a self sustaining income outside of books.

[Olivia]

Yeah. I mean, psychologically that's very important. Just to keep your head above water and stay focused.

[Becca Freeman]

I cannot tell you what a big difference it has made mentally.

[Olivia]

I'm glad that's super important. And maybe it also contributed a little bit to like you feeling less mean to yourself about it. You know, like, since there's not so much pressure, you know, you have this other thing going on. It's like, you don't need to berate yourself as much. Cause it's like, it's gonna be okay. Yeah. Well, good.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'm really excited about the whole pie. Really good about where I am.

[Olivia]

Important thing. Yeah, it's an important thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

Well, what about life?

[Becca Freeman]

What about life?

[Olivia]

General? What about life? Moving on to life.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so I ripped the band aid travel wise. I was here for all of Q1, which was good. I feel like I needed that reset in space and now I am just traveling like a maniac for the summer, which I love. I'm going to Maine next week, kind of impromptu, just to get out of the city and to just like be somewhere else. So I'm spending the week at my friend's house in Maine with them. Hopefully we'll get to have some Maine ventures, have some lobster rolls, like go somewhere really beautiful, eat some good dinner. So I'm really excited about that. I have a girls trip to Palm beach coming up in May, which I'm so excited for. I've not been on like a beachy, relaxy vacation in like two years, so I'm really excited about that. Yeah. And then I have, like, a couple other trips to Maine. I'm going to Sicily at the end of the summer for a friend's 40th birthday. Like, very excited about everything on the calendar. And then. Oh, you know what else I'm really excited about? So I went to see the Last Five Years on Broadway the other week. Nick Jonas is in it. I don't recommend it. I respect the hell out of him for doing it, for stepping outside his sphere and trying something. I mean, he doesn't embarrass himself. His singing voice is phenomenal. However, he was woefully miscast in this role. It is not the right casting. So anyway. What an animal.

[Olivia]

What? There's a groundhog right outside my window and he's just staring at me. No, he's leaving. Oh, no, no.

[Becca Freeman]

Is Winnie going after him? Get away from my plants.

[Olivia]

Oh, get away from my plants. Go into your hole. Go. Good God. He thought he could just roll up and just. I think he's gone. Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

I hope Ryan leaves that in.

[Olivia]

His name is Luciano. I don't know if we've discussed this before.

[Becca Freeman]

He's a regular.

[Olivia]

We're aware. He literally does not. Okay, I'm sorry. Here, I'll show. Jake took this. Hold on, I'm gonna text you. This picture Jake took from the window. He literally looks fake. Hold on. Sorry. This is a really. He's just, like, posted up. I texted it to you. He looks a giant rat.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, he looks smaller and more squirrel like than I would have thought.

[Olivia]

It's. Well, that's taken from the second floor, so he's. He's not. Anyway, I'm fine with him. But don't eat my flowers. Don't eat my flowers.

[Becca Freeman]

I would never. I would never.

[Olivia]

Like, I will come for you.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm not going to eat any of your flowers.

[Olivia]

Back to your life, Nick Jonas.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay. So this.

[Olivia]

Do we move on? Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

No, So I saw that, but it struck off in me that I was like, oh, I want to see more things on Broadway. I want to, like. I don't know, like, I take more advantage of the culture the city has to offer. So I got tickets for this new musical that is getting really great reviews called maybe Happy Endings with Darren Criss. Have you heard about this?

[Olivia]

I haven't.

[Becca Freeman]

It's about two robots who get, like, put out to pasture and they fall in love. They're robots.

[Olivia]

Oh, it sounds great.

[Becca Freeman]

I know, it sounds really cute.

[Olivia]

I love robot movies.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm very excited about that. I just got my ballet season tickets for the 2526 season, which is something I've done the past two years. This will be my third year, and I'm just. It makes me so happy to see ballet regularly, so I feel culturally excited. Pickleball's back, which is, like, my obsession always, so that's been really fun. I don't know what else is my life. I don't know. I can't think of anything.

[Olivia]

What else is my life?

[Becca Freeman]

What else is my life?

[Olivia]

Well, that all sounds great. Sounds very well rounded. Lots of art.

[Becca Freeman]

Still haven't cooked a chicken, sadly.

[Olivia]

Well, no one's, you know, gun to your head.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, it's a year. Like, it's an annual goal, so I have time.

[Olivia]

We're not even halfway. Yeah, lots of time.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? I want to hear about these flowers that Luciano is threatening.

[Olivia]

Yeah, he's really. I haven't seen him actually eat our plants. He usually just eats, like, random greenery, which I'm like, fine, go off. But, yeah, I. This is the first year our garden has been cleared. We spent the last two years cleared, clearing it and finding out what's there and then planting new stuff. So it's coming along. It's coming along slowly. It takes a lot of time, but I really enjoy just, like, seeing it improve year over year. And being outside, it honestly has not really been warm enough to be outside until this week. Not that stops, Jake. But. So, yeah, it's just. It's really rewarding, especially because from my office, I can see you're, like, in the gardens. So, yeah, I'm, like, in it. So it's so nice, like, sitting in my little chair and, like, opening the door and feeling the breeze come in and smelling the hyacinth. The hyacinth smell great right now. So, yeah, that's mainly what's going on.

[Becca Freeman]

I fantasize about having a garden, which doesn't really mesh with my vibe of living in a city. So I don't know how this happens, but I really aspire to have a garden.

[Olivia]

I highly recommend it. It is much harder and also much easier than I was expecting in some ways. But, yeah, everything's coming up right now. All the peonies, lots of stuff we planted last year. So I feel really proud of how hard we've worked on it. And other than that, I mean, we have. I have more hosting things coming up. We're host. Having like, a kind of like a big house party in a couple weeks just to, like, celebrate warm weather, fun. That'll be the most people we've had over probably. And I'm like hosting a little baby brunch for my friend who's pregnant.

[Becca Freeman]

It like really feels like you have found community up there. I don't know over what time frame, but like, you're a pillar of the community.

[Olivia]

Thanks. I really, I feel very lucky. I was actually, I was reading my five year journal or a couple weeks ago maybe, and it was before we had really met our friends, who we have now. And I was like, I just don't know if we fit in here. I just felt like everyone already had their friends. I was like, we're not gonna fit in. You know, there's a lot of people who are child free. There's a lot of people who have kids. There's a lot of people who are older than us. So I just, it took me a while to, to find a group where I just felt like, oh, these are our people. And. But we did, and we have, and it feels really wonderful. I kind of, when I was living in Philly, I really had this like, mindset of like, I don't really need friends.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

And I really didn't have that many friends, to be honest. And that was kind of by choice. And Jake and I went out by ourselves a lot. Perfectly happy with that. And I am at homebody to a degree. But I think I've realized, like, this sounds really sad, but I think I've realized how much I considered like having like so much connection and validation through Instagram. Like it filled that void, you know, I was like, I don't need interesting 5,000 friends because I'm in my DMs 150 times a day talking to people. And I still love doing that. And I still consider people I know through Instagram my friends. I've met lots of real life friends that way. I've met people who I only communicate there that way. But I think it just filled this like, I don't know, this sense of connection that I thought was enough. And like now I see the difference of like, oh, actually having people I can call and be like, hey, can you come help me with this? Or can you come to this event that I'm hosting? Or can you support me in real life? And I didn't value that enough, I think, and I didn't pursue that enough. And now I see you can have both and it can be lovely. But maybe one without the other isn't as good as I thought it was, I guess. Does that make sense?

[Becca Freeman]

It does. I'M curious. I feel like your relationship with your phone has loomed so large over the past year or so, but I feel like you haven't mentioned it that much lately. Like, do you feel like more at peace with like your phone relationship, social media?

[Olivia]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

Yeah, like.

[Becca Freeman]

Cause I feel like it was like a very regular topic of like.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I felt I was addicted. I was addicted to all of it.

[Becca Freeman]

But you were also, even as you were cutting down, you were like really stressed about your relationship with it.

[Olivia]

Yeah. I mean, I think until I started deleting it regularly off my phone, like, I just could not manage my own addiction to Instagram. But I feel like I. I have drastically changed how I use my phone and social media like night and day and it has improved my life immensely. And I still feel like I'm there. I connect with people, I see what's going on. I'm sure when my book is coming out, I'll be on there more, which I'm sure might seem very inauthentic or disingenuous to people, but it's a balance that feels better for me and I feel very thankful that I, like figured it out because it made it very hard for me to feel good about myself without it. That's. Yeah. Now I do though. So that's good.

[Becca Freeman]

Good.

[Olivia]

How are you feeling about your phone?

[Becca Freeman]

Fine. Fine.

[Olivia]

Good.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, I feel like it's like when everything feels bad, it's something else that I guilt myself over and I just, I feel really good holistically and like, do I know what my screen time is? Am I spending too much time on my phone? I don't care right now.

[Olivia]

Good.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, it feels like a non factor.

[Olivia]

I'm glad that's important.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

Well, let's take one more ad break and then we'll be back with more. This episode is sponsored by Wayfair. I spent most of one afternoon last week writing this long post all about the renovation of one room in our house from start to finish. And I wrote about like, you know, the history of the house. I shared old photos, I chronicled all the work we've done and by the end of it I just, like I said, I felt so much gratitude for our home and for all the hard work that we have put into it. And I think that slow, patient work that makes spaces feel like you and like yours is so rewarding and so important. And if you are looking for some ways to make your home feel more like yours, consider Wayfair for stylish and quality home improvement products for every Budget.

[Becca Freeman]

I keep talking about this, but I'm obsessed with this mirror that I got on Wayfair probably about two months ago. And it was for a room that was already furnished. So I kind of had a mental block about it because it was like, how do I find the piece of the puzzle that fits this already done puzzle? And I went on to Wayfair. Their filters are amazing. I popped in how much I wanted to spend. The shape, the size, the finish I wanted. I was able to find something so easily, and it fits the room perfectly. But you know where else I'm thinking about using Wayfair? Dinner parties.

[Olivia]

Ah, that's. Yeah, good point.

[Becca Freeman]

Most of us have shopped at Wayfair before. I think of them for furniture, but they also have stuff for your bathroom, your kitchen, your outdoor areas. They have storage, they have organization, they have appliances, absolutely everything. And at every price point, it is.

[Olivia]

So convenient that Wayfair has everything your home needs this spring all in one spot. So shop the best selection of home improvement online. Get renovating with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Well, let's get into some n matter.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia]

Tell me what you are obsessed with.

[Becca Freeman]

I can tell you. I can also show you.

[Olivia]

Oh, great.

[Becca Freeman]

I am obsessed.

[Olivia]

A lot of showing and telling this.

[Becca Freeman]

A lot of showing. Maybe we should have done on video so people can see my, like, unbrushed hair. I am obsessed with. Oh, I don't know how we pronounce this brand. Soyos, White peach candy. So my friend Jessica, I would call her a hard candy connoisseur. And I associate these candies with like, you get them at like a massage parlor, a laundromat. They're so good. And so I feel like the most popular flavor that I see in the wild is there's these guava candies, which I like. The white peach flavor is incredible.

[Olivia]

So that sounds very good.

[Becca Freeman]

I bought these on Amazon. Olivia. I was expecting like a regular Haribo size bag of candy. It is like an industrial sized bag of hard candies. I'm also having like three of these a day. Like, I am like so into hard candy. I have them on every purse. I'm so into them. So then when I was gonna put them in this outline, I. I was like, okay, what's the brand name? What are these? I'm not saying this company is a front for money laundering, but, like, would that shock me? So there's Chinese characters On it. I think it's Chinese, Some type of Asian Alphabet. And so I was like, are these imported from China? Are these, like, something that's really popular in China? I go on the website, they're the makers of fortune cookies and something. The company is in Queens. The about page on this website is the most vague, corporate bullshit thing I've ever seen. Like, you know what the whole is giving. Have you read the New York Times Katie Weaver piece about glitter? About big glitter?

[Olivia]

I don't think so.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God. We'll link it in the show notes. It's hilarious. She basically goes to try to figure out who makes glitter, and it, like, all is so much more secretive and, like, wild than one would expect. And, like, this candy is, like, giving that, like, what is this company? I feel like I need to read you just, like, a sentence from this company's about page so you understand what I'm saying. So they also make, like, salt and spices is, like, seemingly, like, what they make.

[Olivia]

Oh, a natural.

[Becca Freeman]

And these candies.

[Olivia]

Trio of items.

[Becca Freeman]

Fortune cookies.

[Olivia]

Okay, well, okay, so they have this.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, about page with, like, a bunch of pictures of, like, happy people cooking. There's something that says, mission and vision. Soyos is a spice and seasoning company dedicated to bringing fresher ingredients to every table. Whether you're a cooking novice or professional chef, every kitchen deserves the highest quality spices, seasonings, and ingredients. And I'm like, you make hard candy and fortune cookies.

[Olivia]

Like, they know what they like. They know what the customers want.

[Becca Freeman]

People, no more middleman.

[Olivia]

And I'm like, farm to people. Book fortune. That's actually pretty funny.

[Becca Freeman]

Would read an investigative piece on this company. But anyway, love their candy. Big fan.

[Olivia]

You're opening a can of worms. You probably don't even know.

[Becca Freeman]

I know I do. That has occurred to me.

[Olivia]

Allegedly. Just throw an alleged.

[Becca Freeman]

Allegedly. Don't come for me. Somebody's gonna be like, I work for them. Like, I'm outraged about this. How dare you. Okay, you go. What's your obsession one?

[Olivia]

The squishy thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. You've been playing with this, and I don't know what this is.

[Olivia]

It's like. It's so squishy.

[Becca Freeman]

It's like a stress pig.

[Olivia]

It's a cat.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh.

[Olivia]

It's actually kind of does look like a pig because it's little ears. It just feels so nice. It's like, I got this yesterday. I don't know why. I touched it in a store, and I was like, I must have it.

[Becca Freeman]

It's like a stress ball is what she's holding. It's like a hot pink stress ball.

[Olivia]

Yeah. But it's kind of nice because usually I doodle and, like. Anyway, I really recommend getting a squishy ball, actually. Everyone at this high school I went to and I taught this class, they all had these little, like, squishy things that they were all playing with. And it wasn't this. I forget the name of it. But I asked them what it was, and they were like, you've never heard of this? Like, what is this? It was, like, adult play. D'oh.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia]

Anyway, it was fascinating.

[Becca Freeman]

I did get a whole education when I was in Paris on jelly cat stuffed animals.

[Olivia]

Oh, yeah. That's a thing. That's a thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Which are really big. No, not even. So my. I was there with my friend's sister who has three kids, the youngest of whom is, like, 17. And we're trying to find this, like, specific jelly cat toy for her. And they're also, like, 50 bucks for, like, a small stuffed animal.

[Olivia]

Wow, that's a lot of funny. Yeah, it's like the Beanie Babies of today.

[Becca Freeman]

They also have a jelly cat cafe in Paris. Like, it's like a. Oh, I don't.

[Olivia]

Know if it's up to Kitty, right? No, it's like that level of, like, fandom.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I thought you meant, like, they look like them. And I was like, no, not really.

[Olivia]

No. No, they're just soft stuffed animals, Right, that are around.

[Becca Freeman]

No, they're not all around. They're like, animals, food. There's, like, all different kinds.

[Olivia]

What do I do?

[Becca Freeman]

Anyway? Go on.

[Olivia]

My second obsession is a little different direction. I'm obsessed with the song He Wasn't Man Enough by Toni Braxton, which came on a workout playlist, which I think it was called Girls Rage Workout playlist.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow.

[Olivia]

And I was like, I have never heard this before. And now I cannot stop listening to it. I just. I love it. I love it.

[Becca Freeman]

I'll have to listen to this because I don't think I'm familiar. I'm familiar with Toni Braxton generally.

[Olivia]

It's a bop.

[Becca Freeman]

Great.

[Olivia]

It's a bop. I highly suggest.

[Becca Freeman]

What's Toni Braxton up to these days?

[Olivia]

Couldn't tell you. Couldn't tell you.

[Becca Freeman]

Anyway, I'll save that for later.

[Olivia]

Bookmark. What have you read?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay. So once again, I read a Fae romance. I just really don't want to be in this world right now. So I read Quicksilver by Callie Hart, which is, like, I think a big TikTok. Thing right now. So it's been on the New York Times bestseller list for months and self published. It's a duology. So the first book is out now. The second book comes out in November and it is like. Is it Reinventing the Wheel? No. Was I so addicted that I stayed up till 3am reading it the night I started it? Yes, absolutely. So it's about this girl who lives in like one of those dystopian like hell worlds. It's like deserty, there's no water and like it kind of reminded me of like not quite Hunger Games or like Game of Thrones. Something in that vein though. And she ends up getting arrested and when she's like taken to the Queen, she ends up like falling through this pool of quicksilver into the the fae universe. She didn't know that fae existed and now she is like trapped there. She finds out that she's a alchemist and there's a whole magic system about that. And obviously there's a grumpy 2000 year old guy who is really perturbed by her presence. But then it's like, do I hate him? Do I love him? So anyway, really good. It's like 600 pages. So it is meteor, but oh so good. This one is. Okay, so I talked last week about filthy rich FAE which was 330 pages. It was like half in the real world, half in the fae world. But it was very much like that was like at court. Like it was very much court. Politics, parties, whatever. This one is more like we're on a journey. We're like traveling through the land. There's like battles, wars. So it's like what flavor of Fae romance do you want? Both valid.

[Olivia]

Something for everyone.

[Becca Freeman]

Something for everyone. And then I started a couple other things but I haven't finished them. Including this month's booklet book which I'm really enjoying.

[Olivia]

Oh, oh good, I'm glad. Well, I read, I finished a lot of things. So we'll rapid fire, we'll go through this. So I read this book, Will Bury Me by Ashley Winstead. This is mystery thriller I guess that is about this girl who gets really into this sort of online amateur sleuth world. And it's loosely based on the murder of those college students. And I think it was Idaho or Iowa that happened a couple years ago. But this has a lot to do just with like online amateur sleuths and that whole world and what they do and like how people use them. But then they kind of like judge them and like the boundaries and if you're into true crime, if you listen to true crime podcasts, if you're on the Reddit boards, like, you will really enjoy this one. And it's also like, the chapters are so short. I think there's a hundred chapters. They're like a couple pages each, so it really goes by quite fast. I also finished the Great Believers by Rebecca Mackay, which is it's dual timeline, but it's mostly about the AIDS Crisis in the 80s in Chicago.

[Becca Freeman]

I wanted to read this for forever.

[Olivia]

This was a very good book. I knew nothing about this time. I learned so much. It is heartbreaking. It is so sad. But the present timeline, there's also, like, a mystery. She's trying to find her daughter. So it's just like a really nicely balanced story. And, oh, gosh, so beautiful, but also just deeply sad. I also read Elsewhere by Alexis Gaitkin, who wrote Saint X. And this is like, this is the strangest little book. And the only way I know how to describe it is, like, if M. Night Shyamalan wrote a literary novel about women, this is what you would get. So it's about this mysterious town in the mountains. It's, like, impossible to really gauge, like, what year it is, like, what country. There's a lot of references to, like, German, so maybe like, Switzerland or something. And the whole thing about this town is that the mothers, at a certain point, some of them just disappear. Like, everyone wakes up and they're gone. And this is just part of their culture. Like, it's totally normal and you don't really know which mother is going to go. But then when someone does, they're like, oh, you know, I saw the signs. And so it's just this, like, incredibly interesting way to talk about, like, this idea of, like, someone having children and then disappearing, losing themselves. And my God, is it strange? But I really liked it. And the writing is very beautiful. Just like Saint X. I think this needs to be a show. Like, it needs to be a show and M. Night Shyamalan needs to direct it because, like, at the end there's this huge twist. I just was like, staring at a wall for like, 30 minutes after reading it. So, yes, there's that. And then finally I read the Dream Hotel by Leila Lalami. I tried. And this is about, like, this dystopian sometime in the near future. And the government is able to, like, create these scores to predict whether you are going to commit a crime. And if your score is above 500, they can, like, detain you and they can, like, Watch you for three weeks, but then it often the time ends up getting longer and longer. So it's about this woman who is detained at the airport sort of under, like, false pretenses, and she ends up in this facility. And part of the reason she's there is because they have been monitoring her dreams.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. Because that was what I'd heard about this book. Okay.

[Olivia]

Yes. So they kind of factor in a lot of things, like if a relative of yours has committed a crime or something that goes into your score. But the dreams are, like, the thing that really gets her because they tell her, like, you're dreaming about hurting your husband, so we need to, like, keep you because you're a danger to him and society. Just like a fascinating thing that feels sadly, like it could be true sometime.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. This all feels like a little too prescient.

[Olivia]

Yeah. A little too close to home. And, yeah, I really like this.

[Becca Freeman]

So what a reading bender you've been on.

[Olivia]

I really just. I tore through. I didn't do anything this weekend after my big week, so I just read a lot. Yeah. Quite a mix. So there we go, love.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, next week we will be back to talk about Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey, which I feel like I could pitch it this time. I'm like 70 pages in, so I'm like, far enough.

[Olivia]

Go for it.

[Becca Freeman]

It is about this family who lives on a very remote island off the coast of Antarctica. They're the caretakers of this island which has, like, an abandoned science lab. What word am I looking for? Science facility.

[Olivia]

Facility, yeah, sure.

[Becca Freeman]

And this woman washes up on shore, like, completely battered, and they have to nurse her back to health and then figure out what she's doing here at this, like, very remote island. It's very atmospheric. It's really lovely. I have heard that it is going to make me cry. The listeners have told me it may.

[Olivia]

Yes. So it may.

[Becca Freeman]

Very excited to discuss that. Next week you can also join us in the Geneva group, which is like a Slack chat room app, not for work, where there's different rooms for different local areas. If you want to find book friends, start a book club. Different genres of books. If you want to talk about books, you can talk about anything we talk about here on the podcast. There's a lot of rooms for different TV shows. There is a chicken chat. So lots of things going on there. And you can also find us in the Facebook group under Batonpaper Podcast. Follow us on Instagram adonpaper podcast. I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is eccafreeman.substack.com and I'm Olivia mentor.

[Olivia]

All the places, all the time. I don't know why not all the.

[Becca Freeman]

Time, as we just covered.

[Olivia]

Actually, not all the time. I am. I am around with healthy boundaries. All the places, all the time. But also trying to make my brain feel better. That's all I've got.

[Becca Freeman]

See you next week.

[Olivia]

Bye.