Atmosphere Book Club

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: Atmosphere Book Club Summary

Episode Title: Atmosphere Book Club
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Release Date: July 30, 2025

Join Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter as they delve into "Atmosphere" by Taylor Jenkins Reid in this engaging episode of Bad On Paper. The hosts share personal updates, provide in-depth analysis of the book, compare it to other works, and discuss their upcoming book club picks. Below is a detailed summary capturing all key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

1. Introduction to the Book Club

The episode kicks off with Becca and Olivia announcing the book club day, highlighting that "Atmosphere" by Taylor Jenkins Reid was selected as the listener's choice from their Facebook group poll.

• Becca Freeman [00:17]: “Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Bad On Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.”
• Olivia Muenter [00:21]: “And I'm Olivia Muenter.”

2. Highs and Lows

Before diving into the book discussion, Becca and Olivia share their personal highs and lows of the week.

Olivia's High [00:58]:

Olivia expresses joy over discovering and frequenting an independent movie theater in her town, finding it a healing and comforting experience after past traumas related to movie theater shootings.

• Olivia Muenter [00:58]: “I love it so much. It is so comfortable and cozy... And I just love movies lately too.”

Becca's High [04:55]:

Becca shares her excitement about receiving minimal and manageable feedback from her editor on her book draft, alleviating her anxieties about the publication process.

• Becca Freeman [04:55]: “I am thrilled. I'm still waiting on feedback from my UK editor. So there's like a little bit of uncertainty around... but oh my gosh, I feel like I can see a very bright light at the end of the tunnel.”

No Lows Shared

Both hosts mention having a "lowless week," extending well wishes to their listeners for the same.

3. Advertisement Breaks

The podcast includes brief promotional segments for Cozy Earth and Quince. These sections are skipped in this summary as per guidelines.

4. Deep Dive into "Atmosphere" by Taylor Jenkins Reid

Book Overview [10:18]:

Becca provides a spoiler-filled summary of "Atmosphere," introducing the protagonist Joan Goodwin, an astronomer turned NASA astronaut who develops a secret romantic relationship with Vanessa Ford, another female astronaut. The plot fast-forwards to 1984, where Joan manages a perilous space mission involving Vanessa.

• Becca Freeman [10:18]: “So the year is 1980, and astronomer Joan Goodwin leaves her job in academia to join NASA...”

Choosing the Book [11:09]:

Olivia discusses the selection process of "Atmosphere," noting it was a runaway favorite in the poll, surpassing even Becca’s initial expectations.

• Olivia Muenter [11:09]: “I was not surprised. This one was the runaway pick from the very beginning.”

Discussion on Taylor Jenkins Reid's Works [12:45]:

The conversation shifts to Taylor Jenkins Reid’s bibliography. Olivia admits to having read only "Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo" before, while Becca shares her extensive reading history with the author, rating her books and expressing preferences.

• Olivia Muenter [12:45]: “I have only read Seven Husbands.”
• Becca Freeman [14:12]: “I have read most of her books...”

Critique of "Atmosphere" [16:00 - 22:24]:

Becca and Olivia delve into their critiques of "Atmosphere." Becca feels the main character, Joan, lacks relatable flaws, making her difficult to connect with. Olivia echoes this sentiment, suggesting Joan's perfection might contribute to the emotional manipulation felt throughout the narrative.

• Becca Freeman [16:00]: “This was a three and a half star. I think that I preferred definitely the Seven Husbands, which is my favorite.”
• Olivia Muenter [18:19]: “The main character, though I loved her, I felt had no flaws.”

Emotional Impact and Ending [25:15 - 50:00]:

The hosts discuss the emotional climax of the book, where Vanessa’s fate is a central point of tension. Both anticipated Vanessa's death due to the buildup but were ultimately led to a more nuanced emotional resolution. They debated the effectiveness of the ending and whether it necessitated additional chapters.

• Becca Freeman [25:15]: “I felt like Vanessa was gonna die.”
• Olivia Muenter [26:20]: “It really killed me. It really killed me.”

Comparison with "Project Hail Mary" [50:47 - 54:25]:

Becca and Olivia compare "Atmosphere" to "Project Hail Mary," with both expressing a stronger emotional connection to the latter. They discuss why "Project Hail Mary" resonated more, citing its immersive and unexpected elements.

• Olivia Muenter [51:03]: “It felt more transportive to me.”
• Becca Freeman [52:12]: “I adored it.”

Space Facts and Realism [33:08 - 37:06]:

The hosts humorously discuss their limited understanding of space, debating facts such as the altitude of space and the number of people who have died in space-related incidents. This segment adds a light-hearted tone to their analytical discussion.

• Becca Freeman [35:07]: “The actual amount of people who have died in space, I think it's one guy.”
• Olivia Muenter [36:03]: “A total of 21 people have died during space flight incidents.”

5. Upcoming Book Club Pick

Becca announces the next book club pick for August, "The Night and the Moth" by Rachel Gillig. She describes it as a Romantasy novel with a unique atmospheric setting, diverging from their usual literary-heavy selections. The book features a female prophetess and a skeptic knight in a multi-god realm, promising a fresh and engaging read for the hosts and listeners.

• Becca Freeman [68:14]: “... this is our August book club pick is the Night and the Moth by Rachel Gillig...”

6. Personal Interests and Obsessions

Towards the end of the episode, Becca and Olivia share their current obsessions outside of books. Olivia is captivated by Alexander Skarsgard's interviews and unique sense of humor, while Becca has developed a passion for watercolor painting, finding joy in creating art without the pressure of skill.

• Olivia Muenter [58:25]: “I'm obsessed with Alexandra Skarsgrd's current media circuit interview circuit...”
• Becca Freeman [60:02]: “I am so into this hobby, but specifically... I really unlocked something.”

7. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with Becca and Olivia encouraging listeners to join their Facebook group for further discussion and reminding them of their social media handles for updates and interactions.

• Becca Freeman [71:36]: “You can find us on Instagram and see if Maddie has been able to concoct a graphic...”

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Olivia Muenter [00:58]: “I feel very healed by this movie theater near us. Like, it's so comfortable and cozy.”
• Becca Freeman [04:55]: “I am thrilled. I feel like I can see a very bright light at the end of the tunnel.”
• Becca Freeman [16:00]: “I think that first of all, sometimes when I'm reading for the podcast...”
• Olivia Muenter [18:19]: “The main character, though I loved her, I felt had no flaws.”
• Becca Freeman [25:15]: “I felt like Vanessa was gonna die.”
• Olivia Muenter [26:20]: “That it just… it killed me. It really killed me.”
• Becca Freeman [50:59]: “I adore Project Hail Mary.”

Conclusion

This episode of Bad On Paper offers a heartfelt and critical examination of Taylor Jenkins Reid's "Atmosphere," balanced with personal anecdotes and future literary plans. Becca and Olivia provide listeners with thoughtful insights into character development, emotional manipulation in storytelling, and the intricate balance between high-stakes plot and personal relationships. Their candid reflections and engaging dialogue make this episode a valuable resource for book enthusiasts seeking deeper understanding and community engagement.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia, mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And it's book club day.

[Olivia Mentor]

We're going to be talking about Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins. Reid, you mentioned may have heard of it. I gobbled this up this week in probably like total 3 1/2 hours. I was zooming through. I'm excited to discuss.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, very importantly, this was your pick. Not you, Olivia, you the listener. So you picked this book in the Facebook group and we're discussing it. So excited to deliver on what you want.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm glad you all did.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, before we get to the book, let's do highs and lows. What is your high?

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that I have checked off another, I don't know, small town badge of honor, I guess. I don't. I'm not sure what to call it. As I've said many times, we found this independent movie theater here that we love, and we've been going like one or two times a week basically all summer. It is. I. I know I've. I love it so much. It is so cold in there. They have snacks, we go with friends, they have drinks, they have pinball machines. And now they know us. And when we come back, they're like, welcome back. And as we all know, I love to be seen and recognized within my community. It's been so nice. And there's something about going to the movies a lot that I find really healing because I used to go all the time in high school, and I think I got traumatized, as most of the nation probably did, by the shootings that happened in movie theaters, specifically the midnight showing of. I think it was the dark night that happened in Colorado. That was when I was in high school. And I just remember from that moment on, like, the movie theater was not the same thing for me anymore. And for a very long time up until still sometimes today, whenever anyone would come into the theater with a backpack, I'd be like, this is it. You know, we're done. And I'd spend the whole time just being terrified and, like, thinking about where I would hide and where I would go and if we're close enough to the exit. And anyway, I feel like this is what it's like to live in America sometimes. But I feel very healed by this movie theater near us. Like, it's so comfortable and cozy. It's independently run. It's like, I think a couple that runs it as far as I can tell, and. And I just love them. So it's story Screen in Hudson. If Anyone wants to go. Do not be fooled by its location. It's not in a great location, but it's just really charming. And I'm just loving movies lately too. I'm really loving it.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm so glad. I feel like I will rarely watch a movie at home for some reason. It feels like so much more of a commitment. I'm totally that meme. That's like a two hour movie. No, eight one hour episodes of tv. Like, yes. Yeah, I'm totally that meme. But I do really enjoy the experience of going to a theater. You're fully off your phone, you're fully immersed. You're not getting up to pee unless you absolutely have to. Like, you're buckled in.

[Olivia Mentor]

Exactly. It's so relaxing to really just unwind in this way. We saw Eddington. Have you heard about this movie?

[Becca Freeman]

This is the second time I've heard about it today, but I don't. I haven't seen a preview. I don't know anything about it.

[Olivia Mentor]

You would absolutely hate it. Like, I have no doubt in my mind, but I just saw it because I was like, I want to get out of the heat. And it was two and a half hours long, which I did not want to scare. It was very long. It was very dark. I'm glad I saw it. But anyway, that was the latest one. Just to report my movie theater habits.

[Becca Freeman]

So I'm picturing. Did you watch Gilmore Girls?

[Olivia Mentor]

I did. Casual viewer.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you know that movie theater that they go to quite frequently? It's not a traditional movie theater. Like, it's not movie theater seats. It looks like a living room.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. It's not like that. Oh, okay.

[Becca Freeman]

That's what I was picturing.

[Olivia Mentor]

They have four theaters. They range from kind of on the smaller side to like a very large theater. You walk in, the room is like lined with pinball machines and video games. They have like a bar set up. They have a TV with a VCR that's always playing in different VHS tape. So like yesterday it was Little Women, the 90s version with Winona Ryder. They have all kinds of weird things, but it is like a movie theater, which I do like. And they have. I think I've mentioned this. They have tables in front of your seats for drinks and snacks, which I really love. Okay. Because then you don't have to put everything on the ground. Yeah, but yeah, story screen. Go support them if you're in the area.

[Becca Freeman]

Great.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, tell us your high.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. My high is very high. Very high. I got the book feedback that I had been waiting for. And it was very minimal, which is incredible. It feels incredible. Basically, my editor said that she had no editorial letter. And so the writers in the audience will know, like, what a relief that is. The editorial letter is. You know, anywhere between 1 8. I've heard of a 20 page editorial letter before, but more high level feedback and usually not as prescriptive of how to fix something more. So just here's a problem that I'd like you to address much harder and usually signals much larger changes. And so this time it is just comments, some longer responses back to questions that I had asked her, but then, you know, more line level feedback that's very specific, which feels so much easier to implement. And so I am thrilled. I'm still waiting on feedback from my UK editor. So there's like a little bit of uncertainty around kind of the scope of this draft and when I'm planning to finish it based on how much feedback that is. But oh my gosh, I feel like I can see a very bright light at the end of the tunnel. And also after two quite significant edits having somebody say like, yes, all the big pieces are in place, like, yes, this is working. Oh my gosh. I feel wildly relieved.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm so happy for you. I can't imagine a better feeling for you after everything. And you've worked really hard, so I hope you're.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm so excited.

[Olivia Mentor]

Soaking it up.

[Becca Freeman]

I am. And I'm also really excited to kind of go in and tinker, you know, and to be like, oh, like, let me spend time deliberating over this one sentence. You know, like, it feels really luxurious.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I told. I totally know what you mean. I totally know what you mean. It's just a good way to switch your brain to a different mode too. Like, it's just such a relief to be like, okay, we're not thinking that way anymore. We're thinking this way.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. And I think this is the type of thing. Before I wrote a book, I thought editing was. And so in this way it feels more comfortable, right?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Yeah, I get what you mean. When I heard editing, that is what I thought of. Like, you're making sure the comma is in the right place.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

In reality, revisions in the early stages are more like, make this chapter more this way, which is so hard.

[Becca Freeman]

Or like, cut seven of these chapters and combine them into one. Or, like, remove this whole plot line and make the book still work.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Like, build tension and you're just like, okay, how will I do that? Well, I'm very Happy for you and so excited to read this book.

[Becca Freeman]

One Step Closer.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Well, any lows?

[Becca Freeman]

No. Who am I to have a low? This has been such a monkey on my shoulder of. Is this feedback going to be good? What's going on with my book? Like, oh my gosh, I feel light as air.

[Olivia Mentor]

Great. I'm so glad.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? Do you have a low?

[Olivia Mentor]

Not really. I don't think I have a low.

[Becca Freeman]

A lowless week across. Well across the hosts of Bad on paper, but hopefully all across the Baton Paper universe. Hopefully all of our listeners don't have a low either.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, passing the lowless week on to all of you. If you have not had one, hopefully the next one will be lowless.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, let's take a quick ad break and I want to talk about this book.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

Okay, into this book, quick summary, spoiler warning. I'm going to spoil the book and we're going to spoil it even more in this discussion. So if you don't want to hear that, not a safe space for you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so Many spoilers.

[Becca Freeman]

So the year is 1980, and astronomer Joan Goodwin leaves her job in academia to join NASA, where she quickly finds friendship and belonging among her fellow astronauts. And over time, a beautiful but secret romantic relationship blooms with one of her fellow female astronauts, Vanessa Ford. So Fast forward to 1984. Joan is running mission control on a space mission gone awry, where Vanessa is one of the few survivors. But her life is still in peril. Okay, Olivia, so this was our listener pick month for book club. Were you surprised that this was chosen?

[Olivia Mentor]

I was not. I actually think we discussed it between ourselves, our predictions and I think I did call it, actually. You did not to toot my own space porn.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought for sure it was going to be Great Big Beautiful Life by Emily Henry because we voted on this in kind of mid June. And that book has been more controversial than Emily Henry's past books in that some people really love it and some people are really not loving it. And I thought for sure people wanted to bait us into maybe shit talking that book. And so I thought for sure it was going to be Great Big Beautiful Life. I felt I would have put money on it. I felt so confident. I don't even think it was one of the poll options because people input the poll options themselves. It's really funny every year I love watching it because so much of it matters what somebody puts in first because you could either put in your own or vote for somebody else's. And so it really matters kind of what the first four are.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. This one was the runaway pick from the very beginning. I'm pretty sure. I don't even know what was second place. I can't even recall because I don't think it was close. In past years there have been close races.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. No, you called this one. Okay. So getting into this book, or at least this universe, I actually don't know. I want to hear your Taylor Jenkins Reid origin story. Like which of her prior books have you read? Are you a fan? Where are you?

[Olivia Mentor]

I have only read Seven Husbands.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I know.

[Becca Freeman]

Did you read it Pre or post TikTok viral fame?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think I read it slightly before maybe.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I. I remember reading it very early on when we lived in Philly and I didn't have TikTok at that point. Okay. So I'm not sure. I don't recall seeing it on TikTok and then reading it. I recall seeing it somewhere else or maybe a friend told me about it. I loved was also, I think before I started doing the podcast. And so I was reading a little bit less. And I think my taste wasn't as, like, honed in. And there's no real reason I haven't read her other books. I think it's mostly that when there's like, a book every single person in the world is reading, part of me is like, I must support the other books. I don't know. I have no idea.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I know what you mean.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I don't get to it. But I mean, I watched Daisy Jones and I enjoyed that.

[Becca Freeman]

I remember, I think that the soundtrack was one of your obsessions at one point, I think.

[Olivia Mentor]

So, yeah, I was really into the show. Jake and I both loved it. But yeah, that's it. And there's no real reason why. Cause I loved Seven Husbands. I remember just zooming through it. I remember having a very specific reading experience where I was like, oh, that was so fun to read. Like, that was such a wild ride and just so skillfully done. But you've read a bit more of Taylor Jenkins Reid than I have, if I'm correct. But correct me if I'm wrong.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I've read most of her books. So I recently did a newsletter where I went back and looked at my reading from 2015, so 10 years ago. And that was my first Taylor Jenkins read book. I read maybe in another life in 2015, and I gave it four stars. And I was a much harsher grader in 2015, so I think that means that I, like, really liked it. And that one hasn't really popped the same way that her quartet of novels about famous women in different decades has. But that one's kind of a sliding doors type. Contemporary, I guess you'd call it women's fiction, but like a little bit romance. And I've read every one of her books since then and I've enjoyed them all, with the exception of I didn't love Malibu Rising.

[Olivia Mentor]

Any reason why or.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't even remember at this point. I wish I had better records to tell you why I didn't like it. I think that one came out since the podcast has been in existence, so maybe I talked about it, but that one wasn't my favorite.

[Olivia Mentor]

That does seem to be the general take on her books. And weirdly, I was at the library the other day and I looked to see which of her books were available, and it was only that one.

[Becca Freeman]

Interesting. I. Yeah, I feel like that one maybe veers a little more family drama than the rest of her books, which are very focused on one woman's career. And I mean, it's not to say that Malibu Rising doesn't have that, but it's more centered around the day of a party than a whole past timeline about this family story.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, that's good to know. What is your favorite though? If that's your least favorite?

[Becca Freeman]

I would say my favorite is the Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, where does atmosphere rank?

[Becca Freeman]

Not that high, really.

[Olivia Mentor]

The truth comes out.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I need to know.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't regret reading this. I would have read it anyway, even if it wasn't a book club pick. But I don't think I liked this as much as other people did. Like, to me, this was a three and a half star. I think that I preferred definitely the Seven Husbands, which is my favorite. I prefer Daisy Jones the six over this. I preferred Carrie Soto is back over this. I don't remember maybe in Another Life well enough to really have an informed opinion there, but this four stars in.

[Olivia Mentor]

2015 though, is pretty high. About your harsh rating.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, this feels pretty middle of the pack for me. I think that first of all, sometimes when I'm reading for the podcast and I didn't leave it till the last minute in any way, but sometimes when I feel like I have to read something and I have to speak about it, like I have to have thoughts about it, I sometimes can kind of begrudge reading it, which is not something you want to hear from somebody who runs a book club. But sometimes I do think that colors what I think of a book. Like if I'm not in the mood for it and I'm like, I have to read it. And then I think I also have a little bit of what you were saying where it's like, oh, this book is so hyped. Everyone likes this book that I.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right.

[Becca Freeman]

I want to find flaws with it, but that's not my M.O. as a reader because there's plenty of times that something is a huge commercial hit and I'm like, I'm jumping on this bandwagon a la Fourth wing. All of so many romantasy things. You know any of the kind of big contemporary romance writers. So it's not that I have an exceptionalist streak in all of my reading life, but I don't know, something about this just felt medium to me. Where did you net out?

[Olivia Mentor]

You know, I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought we were gearing up for you to be like, this was a rave for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

I loved reading it. I had so much fun reading it. I did cry. I thought it was the whole time I was like this woman, how does she write something this compelling? From the very first chapter, I was hooked. I was like, I am going to do whatever I need to do to finish this as fast as possible. Which I did. I've been trying to put my finger on though, what is the thing that made me not go crazy over it the way other people are. And I can't quite identify it, but I have a few theories.

[Becca Freeman]

I do too.

[Olivia Mentor]

One is for me, the first one. And you can tell me if you have the same. The main character, though I loved her, I felt had no flaws.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And so I was like, okay, maybe that's why she's reading a little flat.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know. I. I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

Totally.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm questioning myself.

[Becca Freeman]

Agree with you. I think that Joan is the perfect character to root for. She's like very self contained, she's competent, she's somewhat joyless. So you want to see her find joy and friendship in love. But she's like very hard to identify with. You know, like that same joylessness in that same lack of flaws. Other than being a bit of a stick in the mud, which I don't think you can really be like, that's not a huge flaw a little bit. But yeah, a little bit in that way. Like she just isn't fun to read. Like, I felt like what I love about Taylor Jenkins Reid's other characters is how brash and unapologetic they usually are in different ways. Like Evelyn Hugo gives no, you know, Carrie stto was somebody who was so rigid and single minded in her pursuit of this one goal and didn't care if people thought she was a. Like she just had a strength to her like that Joan lacked. And you know, in Daisy Jones and the six, Daisy Jones was really self centered and flighty, but you got the sense that she was doing what she wanted versus Joan felt so go with the flow. I wasn't like, wow, I really see myself in Joan in any way. But at the same time. And I think I also felt somewhat manipulated by the book because of that. Because it was like I'm set up to be rooting for Joan to find joy, to find friendship, whatever, and then to have it ripped away from her. And I was like, oh, this all just feels like I can almost see the magic trick.

[Olivia Mentor]

I see what you mean. I kept thinking about the phrase which I think people throw around quite a bit when it comes to Colleen Hoover books. The like emotional manipulation. But what is a book if not supposed to manipulate, supposed to manipulate you emotionally. So then I kept thinking, I don't know if that's a fair assessment to make, but I see what you're. You're saying.

[Becca Freeman]

And it was like, Joan was always gonna do the right thing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

There was no, like, what's gonna happen next? You're like, joan's gonna be competent and do the right thing. Like, I almost found myself at certain points wishing or wondering what it would have been like if the book was told from Vanessa's point of view.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. And so two things. One, I think what I would've really loved to maybe see from Joan is we'll talk about the relationship with Frances later, which is a huge part of the book, her and her niece, and how much she loves and cares for her niece, like, essentially a second parent. I kind of thought, if you're Joan and you're an astronaut and you are falling in love for the first time, do you not have a little bit of resentment of how much responsibility you are required? And this is touched on very lightly. And I think it mostly gets directed towards the bad parenting of her sister. But, like, I think it would have been interesting if there was some conflict where she snaps at Francis or something, you know, and she's like, you know, I'm allowed to have. Have a world separate from. From you or something like that. I mean, that sounds so cruel, but I think that's very human. Like, I think most people would have that reaction. If you're essentially parenting a child when you are not the parent and you don't have any of the benefits of being a parent, the child doesn't live with you, or at least she hasn't for a while anyway. That's just a thought. That was one thing. And the second thing that I kept thinking was I loved the actual drama in space so much more than I loved everything else.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I've heard this critique of this book before, that people thought it was gonna be spaceier.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right. And it's not that, like, I necessarily needed it to be all space, because I think without the backstory, without the love story, that final scene is not gonna hit as hard. But I wish it was more balanced. It was so heavy in the backstory and history of this relationship. And then I just was speed reading to get to the scenes, like, what's gonna happen next?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I really liked the romance. I thought that the romance was really beautiful. And actually, the actual romance itself is really only happening from maybe, like, halfway through the book to 3/4 when there start to be cracks and they're both Training for their separate space missions. I was so invested, and I so believed in the romance. And I thought it was really humanizing for Joan to go off your point, though. Their training felt so mundane at so many points. Like, except for that one scene where they're parachuting off of the back of the boat. Like, everything about training for space and maybe this is how it is. I would certainly have no idea. It felt so. Almost like any other job.

[Olivia Mentor]

I didn't mind the space training stuff, but I think maybe there was so much relationship building woven into it, and not just between Vanessa and Joan. And I, too, really thought the romance was beautiful, and I thought the chemistry was excellent. Like, it was all great. But I also thought the friendships were really interesting. I think they were all meant to just add depth to both of the main characters, and I think they did that very well. And then again, it made the control room in the spaceship that much more impactful. I don't know. I would like a version of this where somehow instead of it being like, 75%, you're in Texas and 25% not even. I think it's actually more like, what would you say the split is? To me, it kind of felt like 90. 10.

[Becca Freeman]

I was going to say 85.

[Olivia Mentor]

15. Yeah. Yeah, that's probably closer. I would like a more even split at least, because I just thought there was so much tension in that room in that scene. Like, ugh. When she's like, the end of that chapter, and she's like, I'm the only one left. I was like, oh, my gosh, you genius. You genius. Taylor Jenkins Reed. My God.

[Becca Freeman]

I highlighted that, wrote it down in the outline. Like, I was like, yes. That gave me spine tangles. That was the line. Okay, so in the time profile that we have discussed before about Taylor Jenkins Reid, we discussed it in a Three Things episode. Maybe, like, two months ago. She said that she wrote this book after asking herself the question, what is my Titanic? And I'm curious if you think that this book lives up to that premise. Because for me, that line. Houston, I think I'm the only one left. I was like. When I read that, I was like, yes, I get why she said Titanic.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I feel the same. Except. And this is gonna be the biggest spoiler of all, but it made me think that Vanessa was absolutely going to die.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought you.

[Olivia Mentor]

It really played a trick on me.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought that Vanessa was going to die even more because I've. Because of the podcast consumed. There's Facebook group threads, and, like, people have been Posting, like, their reactions, which I love. Like, please do that. But everyone was saying how hard they cried. So I, like, really thought Vanessa was gonna die.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. And then at one point, I. When Frances was left at the school for Thanksgiving, I thought that something was gonna happen to Frances and it was gonna really throw me. But then that too was wrong. Did you cry?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I did cry. So I lost it. When Jack, the head of Mission Control, said, tell her what you need to tell her to Joan, I was like, that's so human. Like, these people really love both of them. And, like, she's losing Vanessa and there's so much unsaid between them. Like, they left on such unideal terms. And I was like, I lost it then.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. That got me the final scene where they're trying to say stuff without saying stuff. That it just. It killed me. It really killed me.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Okay, so let's kind of break this book down into its elements. Maybe I want to know, like, what you were here for, what worked for you outside of that kind of single scene that's woven through of everything going wrong in space. So I guess how did you feel about the historical narrative piece of it?

[Olivia Mentor]

Eh, same.

[Becca Freeman]

It felt a little after school, especially where it was like, we can't be out because of cultural norms, which I. I thought was really well done, but the story just felt a little stale. And then also the sexism of, like, the pilots are. Think the women can't do anything. I was like, oh, yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I kind of kept forgetting that it was in the 80s. And then that would come up and I'd be like, oh, yes. Like, oh, yes. I thought a lot about how different things are now. And, you know, the things that we're going to look at in 20 years and say, I can't believe that's how we treated people who are different. You know, that's how we treated marginalized groups.

[Becca Freeman]

And you said 20 years, but 1980, like, that's over 40 years ago. I think of. No, I think the same thing. Like, think of it as 20 years ago.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is a side note, but I saw a video yesterday of someone interviewing, like, tweens on the street about, like, how can you spot someone who's not Gen Z? And one of the questions they asked was, what year is someone born to be considered old? Do you wanna.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes, I saw that video too.

[Olivia Mentor]

2001.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Anyway, so I'm clearly doing some weird mental math about the years, but, yes, 45 years, not 20.

[Becca Freeman]

No, but I know what you mean. I'm there with you mentally?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it just. It feels so modern, like people were going to space. You know, we had phones, we had all these things. But there's this fundamental difference in some ways, at least in how we treat queer people. And it's a good thing to remember so we don't fall into some of the same patterns, for sure. But I kept forgetting it was the 80s death part.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that's interesting. I felt like the 80s part felt very in the foreground for me. I didn't lose sight of that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, but you didn't care for it.

[Becca Freeman]

It didn't enhance it. I didn't dislike it, but it didn't add anything for me. I mean, I guess maybe that's just when. Based on the United States space program, this story made the most sense to be set. And also the narrative about firsts. First woman in space. Like, can women go to space? Like, that's when that was happening. So I guess it makes sense.

[Olivia Mentor]

What did work for you?

[Becca Freeman]

The romance, for sure. I thought that was, like, really lovely. I felt really frustrated with Joan in the first half of the book. And I think once her and Vanessa actually got together after their first kiss, it opened her up in such a beautiful way that she felt so much more relatable.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. And as much as I wish that she was a little more flawed, I do think one of the best aspects of Joan's character development is it felt really. Obviously I don't have the same experience, but it felt really real the way that she was just so unaware of her sexuality in this way. Like, it felt human to me to be, like, very unaware of it and then once it clicks, to be like, oh, yes, this of course, you know. And I really liked the way Taylor Jenkins Reid explored that and, like, showed the evolution of Joan in this way.

[Becca Freeman]

You know, it really reminded me of. I realized you haven't read this yet, but it really reminded me of the Safekeep by Yael Vanderwouden, which I don't think this is a spoiler to say it's on the COVID copy, but it's about this woman who is in a slightly different era. I think it's set in the late 1940s, early 1950s, maybe, but it is about a woman who is different than Joan, but is similar in kind of her how self contained, how joyless, how regimented she is. And it's also about her discovering a heretofore unknown aspect of her sexuality. And again, like, it kind of followed the same arc in terms of, like, you don't really relate to the character, maybe love the character. And then this relationship opens them up.

[Olivia Mentor]

I've got to read it. I've got to read it. I look forward at every store I go to.

[Becca Freeman]

I can't believe they don't have it. I feel like it's like, very probably sold out. Oh, yeah, it could be sold out.

[Olivia Mentor]

Because she just won the women's prize. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. Wait, have you ever thought about writing something historical? Like, if you had to write something that was not contemporary, what decade? Or I guess it could even be century, what would you write in?

[Olivia Mentor]

This is such a good question. So. So I have thought about it in the sense that I feel like it would be an interesting way to just do something different. You know, I feel like with each book you kind of want to explore something from a different stance in terms of structure or setting or whatever. And so I thought that could be a cool thing to play around with. It seems so hard to me. Like, so hard.

[Becca Freeman]

Terrifying.

[Olivia Mentor]

I do think. Yeah, I do think that there is something really interesting about the 90s in a similar way.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that would be fun.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, yeah, I know enough. But also, I think, like, the 80s, it's a time period that for a lot of us, doesn't feel that far away. But when you actually sit and think about it, it is very different. Like, I think about women, you know, being in your 30s, in the 90s, and making decisions about what you're gonna do with your life, about career, about kids, about marriage, is in some ways a totally different experience than it is today. And in some ways it's exactly the same. And I think that's really fascinating. But I don't know if I have the chops for writing anything historical at this point. What about you? Is there an era you're like, ugh, I would love that, but. Or I'm planning on doing that.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I don't feel drawn to writing a historical book whatsoever. I don't think that it suits my skills as a writer. I don't think I'm a very research heavy or care to be a research heavy writer. But I do think the era of history that I'm most fascinated about and like to read about is I really love kind of the 60s, Andy Warhol, New York City factory scene. And so I don't think I will ever write a historical novel. But that's something that I would really delight in kind of diving deeper into.

[Olivia Mentor]

I would read it.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Did you find that you learned anything about space in this book?

[Becca Freeman]

Olivia, this was mentioned, like, 1700 times in this book, but they kept talking about how they were 200 miles above Earth. I have terrible spatial relations, just as a person. If you had asked me how high above Earth space is, I would have said thousands of miles.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I couldn't even have told. I couldn't even have given the number.

[Becca Freeman]

I would have said thousands. I would have said, like, 5,000.

[Olivia Mentor]

It makes sense, I guess. But you're right. Like, I. I can't conceive of it. Me either. Me either.

[Becca Freeman]

But she. First time she said that, I was like, huh? And then she. It was in the book at least five or ten times, somebody saying that they were 200 miles above Earth. And I was like, that is not. That does not compute for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, me either. But I'm also someone that, like, can't calculate the size of a room. So if I'm shopping for furniture, it's just, like, always wrong. So it does make sense that I would really be off pace.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, it totally makes sense that I would be wrong, too.

[Olivia Mentor]

But it.

[Becca Freeman]

But. But so wrong.

[Olivia Mentor]

But I almost just asked the question, and I'm not sure if this is a question that makes sense or it's the most asinine thought that's ever entered my head. How far is the sky?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

From where we're sitting.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, what defines the sky exactly?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

Because if you're flying, you go through clouds, and you do that before the WI fi turns on, so you're below 10,000ft.

[Olivia Mentor]

So, like, here to outside of Earth. How far is that?

[Becca Freeman]

Apparently 200 miles.

[Olivia Mentor]

So they're. Oh, they're just outside. I was thinking from outside of Earth to where they are is 200 miles.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Listen, this is why I'm not going up to space. This among many reasons I would not.

[Becca Freeman]

You don't want us.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I would be turned away immediately. They put me in that ball thing. They'd be like, get inside this ball. Curl up into a tiny. And nope. I'd be like, I'm out. I don't know why I'm here to begin with. Guys, how did I get here? Who let me in?

[Becca Freeman]

You know the other tangential space fact I learned through this book? At one point, I felt compelled to look up how many people have died in space? It is far lower than I would have expected. I mean, I guess not many people go to space. So on a percentage basis, it's probably quite dangerous. But maybe it's from movies, you know, people floating away or. I just thought more people died in actual space accidents. And a lot of the accidents have been on takeoff or re entry. But the actual amount of people who have died in space, I think it's one guy.

[Olivia Mentor]

One guy?

[Becca Freeman]

I think so. I mean, I don't really trust the Google summarized answers. I gotta find my notes here, gotta find my screenshot.

[Olivia Mentor]

We gotta say his name.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. A total of 21 people have died during space flight incidents.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow.

[Becca Freeman]

The Soyuz 11 died during reentry. 1971, Challenger, the whole crew of seven died during takeoff. 1986, Columbia, all seven crew members were killed during reentry in 2003. And then Apollo 1 three astronauts died during a ground test in 1967 due to a fire inside the command module.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Columbia is the one I remember very well. And I actually got confused because in the book, there's a different Columbia. They're watching with Sally Ride, and I was like, oh, they're all gonna die. And I was like, oh, wait, I'm 20 years off. Once again, interesting. I didn't know that. It does make sense.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought people were floating off all the time. Like, I thought that was a real thing we had to contend with in space.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I think it's like probably. It's probably like air travel. It's like the most highly regulated thing.

[Becca Freeman]

550 people have gone to space so far as well. This is as of 2023. I don't know if anyone's gone to space since then, probably. And only three have actually died there.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, do we count Katy Perry in this?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah, I guess so. So however many people went up during that, it's now 560 at least.

[Olivia Mentor]

What a year it's been. But the fact that I learned that I thought was really fascinating is I'm gonna get the dates wrong. But it's this article that Vanessa mentions about how I think it was the New York Times, some newspaper said that space travel or flight would never be possible in a million years. Yeah, a million years. And then it was like two weeks.

[Becca Freeman]

Later after the Wright brothers did it or something.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, two weeks after the Wright brothers were like, watch us and their sister, which I never knew about. And I've driven past the Wright brothers monument, which is in the Outer Banks many times, where the first flight was. And I never knew that. So I. I really enjoyed learning that as well.

[Becca Freeman]

Same. Okay, before we talk about kind of the big space plot line, Joan's trip to space felt very anticlimactic, huh? Like, I remember very early in the book, it was mentioned that she had already been to space. So I was like, oh, cool. Can't wait to get to that. And then it was like three pages. I felt like. It felt anticlimactic. But I did love that she was sick in space. It felt like there was a certain realness to the disappointment of something that you've built up so much and then it not being how you expect. Like, I feel like there's the writing advice where it's like, the bigger something is, the smaller you write.

[Olivia Mentor]

I've never heard that, but that is. I like that.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm definitely butchering it, but it's something along those lines. So, like it. I was like, yes, this makes sense. So the thing we're focusing on with Joan in space is that she's vomiting like such a human. Small understandable thing. Honestly, could not imagine having to sit down and write about the experience of somebody taking off on a spaceship in any type of believable way.

[Olivia Mentor]

Me either. No, because I would just be like. You just be like. I guess she did an incredible amount of research, which is the through line that seems to come up whenever I read reviews of this or I read the acknowledgments or whatever. So I guess that's the moment, as a writer when research is absolutely key because you're never going to experience something similar.

[Becca Freeman]

On the flip side, nobody can really call you on it.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's true.

[Becca Freeman]

There's only 550ish people who actually. Unless Katy Perry gets in touch.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I mean, I thought it was good. There's something with, like, going to space. And I think the movie is Apollo 13 with Tom Hanks. Right. Where I think they die or do they live?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

We just went over this.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm like, is this Apollo 13 or Armageddon? I think I've conflated those two movies in my head.

[Olivia Mentor]

Apollo 13 is a true story.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was definitely getting those vibes when reading this. But anyway, all those movies, also fictional stories, interstellar gravity. There's just a sense that, like, none of it is real, you know? Like, I kind of think the reason that there are conspiracy theorists about people never having been to the moon and it's all a lie, whatever is because it seems so absurd to look up at the moon and be like, we have traveled there by flying object. That's crazy. When you think about it, it just doesn't connect, you know? So any depiction of going to space, to me, no matter how realistic it Is feels a little fantastical. It feels like science fiction still, even though I know it's real and it's happened. So I think you can kind of do what you want.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

When writing it.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I feel like my books are going to stay in the present. Roughly in the present and out of space.

[Olivia Mentor]

You're done with space now. I would never want to write it. Yeah, it's hard. It's so hard.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, fun side tangent before we get into some of the deeper stuff. At one point, they're debating what is the best song about space. Do you have an opinion?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. It's a little song called Zoom Zoom by Protozoa. In the movie, Xenon goes zoom, zoom, make my heart boom, supernova girl. You don't know it.

[Becca Freeman]

It's not ringing bells.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have to tell you, for my Xenon people out there, that for my birthday this year or Christmas, I can't remember, my sister in law got a cameo from the guy that plays Protozoa in that movie. And I feel like we should include the audio of it at the end of this episode or something because he sings the song and then he goes like, olivia, happy birthday. I hope you're having the best, most supernova day ever. And it's like this. He's like walking down a street in London and it's like, I heard you wrote a book.

[Becca Freeman]

We gotta include it.

[Olivia Mentor]

We gotta include it anyway. I know my xenon heads are out there. Supernova girl. Sorry, is what is Now I'm like, the song is playing in my head, but okay, what's yours?

[Becca Freeman]

I was gonna. I was going to agree with the unpopular opinion in the book that it's Rocketman by Elton John.

[Olivia Mentor]

But now the traditional choice.

[Becca Freeman]

Now I'm second guessing myself because I haven't heard the Xenon song in so long.

[Olivia Mentor]

The catchiest Disney Channel original movie song.

[Becca Freeman]

I wonder what Terrence thinks.

[Olivia Mentor]

Zoom, zoom, zoom, make my heart go boom, boom, supernova girl.

[Becca Freeman]

I bet he probably agrees with you.

[Olivia Mentor]

I feel like I need to be wearing a matching metallic outfit, a mini skirt, holographic earrings.

[Becca Freeman]

Maybe Maddy can put you in that outfit in the promo for this episode. I feel like she makes some really good graphics.

[Olivia Mentor]

I loved it so much. The premise of the movie is that she gets grounded and she gets sent to Earth. It's just genius. Anyway, we're gonna move on because I could stay here for a long time and no one wants that.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, I want to talk about the Francis plotline and you said that you had some issues with This. I want to talk about that. I also have a really failed theory that I had during this plot line, but.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I want to hear that. But, yeah, I mean, I thought it was beautiful and very sweet. I just think that it would have been an interesting way to give Joan some, like, darkness to be like, you know, I love Frances so much, but I am an astronaut and I'm raising a child and I shouldn't have to do that. And, like, as angry as she was towards her sister, I was like, I need. I would be so much angrier. Like, I would have so much built up resentment, and I would have that. At the same time, I had, you know, the love for this child. I think I was reading and I knew, without even getting to the acknowledgments, like, oh, this is about Taylor Jenkins Reid's child. Like, I could just tell that the relationship between Joan and Frances was Taylor Jenkins Reid and her kid. And she intimated as much in the acknowledgments. I don't know if you read them.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought I did, but.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or maybe it was her niece. I think it was. She said, basically the last line is like, you are my Frances.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I. Apparently I wasn't reading closely. I was paying more attention to, like, the astronaut stuff she was talking about.

[Olivia Mentor]

In it, But I wasn't expecting her to say that. But, like, I thought while reading it, oh, this is based on a specific relationship. Okay, but tell me your theory.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so not directly having to do with Frances, but I really thought so. Do you remember the scene where her sister is about to get married and Joan wants to bring Vanessa as a date to the wedding, and her sister kind of flips out and says, like, no, what will people think? And the husband pulls her aside into another room and says, you should bring whoever you want. And for some reason, I got it into my head that it was going to later be a plot point that the husband was gay himself and that the whole marriage was a sham marriage to the sister. Because he was a little bit older. He seemed like such a catch. He was rich. He was, like, good looking. And I was like, oh, this is all going to connect in some way that I don't know if the sister always knew or the sister was going to find out. And it was something that was ultimately going to make her have more empathy for Joan's sexuality. And I. I don't know why that little moment gave me that. But the whole time I was wait. I was like, okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I thought it was a way to make that person, a likable character in some way. And so I kind of thought he was going to soften something in the situation. I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought that at the wedding, there was this moment where Joan and Vanessa step out onto the balcony while Frances is sleeping, and I thought they were gonna see him with a man.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. I really invented a whole plot line in my head that does not exist and did not need to exist.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, hey, I think this is only really occurring to me now as we talk about it. But in the same way that I felt like Joan was perfect, I almost felt like they kind of cartoon villainified the sister, you know, and, like, she was a terrible parent and she was very selfish at the same time. She was a single mother who had a child very young, clearly didn't have a lot of support around her. Her sister is an astronaut. I mean, that is a lot to carry and doesn't excuse how she treated Frances. But I think I would have maybe connected with it all more if it was, like, not so black and white. It felt very like, this is a good person and this is a bad person. And I just don't know if anything is that simple.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I hear you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I hear you. Okay, let's get into the very meaty 15% that everything's fucked in space scene that is kind of sprinkled throughout the book. We both already said we thought Vanessa was gonna die. How did the actual ending work for you?

[Olivia Mentor]

It felt quick, like. It felt very, like, oh, it's done, you know?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, that's an interesting question, because in the Facebook group, there's a debate going, would you want one more chapter?

[Olivia Mentor]

That's such a tough question. How do you feel about it? I'm not sure.

[Becca Freeman]

I think the ending worked. It was very emotional. It was satisfying to me. I feel like there might be an alternate ending on a laptop somewhere where Vanessa doesn't make it, because I feel like Taylor Jenkins Reid kind of straddles this weird line where she writes books with heavy romantic subplots, but she is not ever considered a romance author. Romance readers who also read Taylor Jenkins Reid have, like, a very strong expectation of a happily ever after. I wonder how much that came into her own thinking about what she was allowed to do or potentially what her editors or publishers allowed her to do. I felt like there might have been an alternate ending where Vanessa did die. As far as wanting one more chapter goes, I would say no, because I don't think the way she left it, you could have just had one more chapter. I feel like you would have had. Needed to have multiple chapters. You would either need to have, like a flash forward epilogue, which I don't think this needed, or you would need to have, like, multiple chapters. That's them reuniting and then figuring out what to do going forward, which was kind of a. Like, it was all logistics. I don't think it would have been, like, exciting to read. To me. It ended in the right place.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I don't know. I have complicated feelings about it because there's a part of me that thinks it would have been stronger if she died. At the same time, I think it's kind of cruel to tell this love story of these women who have already had to sacrifice so much of their relationship to hide it from the world and to, like, go through their life and their career successfully. It's like, really, you're going to do this to them? It's kind of unfair. And I wonder if my instinct that she should have died is also clouded by the Titanic thing of it all. I was kind of expecting that.

[Becca Freeman]

It's a doomed love. One of them has to die, and only one of them is in space. So we know which one it probably was.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think it could have used another chapter, but I don't think it could have been another chapter that was just continuing the narrative where it left off. I think it would have had to be something different, something unexpected, something surprising, a different, I don't know, character's point of view or something. It would've had to be different. I don't know what it would've been.

[Becca Freeman]

Then the fast forward to. At one point, Vanessa says something about when we're 60. So I'm not exactly sure how old they are in the book, but if we say they're around 35, that would have been 25 years later. So that would have been 2010. And so, like, gay marriage would have been legal. I can't remember where she says she wanted them to move. It was like a cabin maybe in Colorado or somewhere. And like, I feel like that would have been the flash forward with a dog.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yeah. And it's almost like that would have been too neat.

[Becca Freeman]

Exactly. That would have been like.

[Olivia Mentor]

So, yeah, you're right.

[Becca Freeman]

She wrapped in a. Francis is an adult now.

[Olivia Mentor]

And then you retire her mom. No, I think, you know, if I could have had anything, it would have just been more space and not necessarily more at the end, more sprinkled throughout.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. I need to acknowledge that I would hate this if it were done to me. I'm putting aside my instincts as a writer and I'm just being like a full reader right now. I would hate it if somebody were to compare me to a white CIS straight. As far as we know, man author. But I do need us to talk about because it's so part of the podcast DNA. How did this compare to you to Project Hail Mary, which is. Would you still say it's your number one favorite book?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I don't think it's my number one favorite book. One of my favorite books.

[Becca Freeman]

A top 10 for sure.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't think I liked it as much. It does feel wrong to say.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. I feel like the worst.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't think I liked it as much.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you have any instinct as to why?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm trying to puzzle through it in my head.

[Becca Freeman]

You want to know one thing? I realized there was no strong reason for them to be in space in this book. In Project Hail Mary, there was like, they were saving the world. There was something that was greater than them versus I think if you kind of extrapolate from this book, it's like partly the space race with Russia.

[Olivia Mentor]

The satellites. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Second, it's like launching this rocket program, which is a different kind of. So it's like the advancement of space travel in general and like, theoretically experimenting and understanding more about space. But it was like, kind of indulgent.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I think part of the reason I liked Project Hail Mary more is that it felt more transportive to me. Like, it felt.

[Becca Freeman]

It felt more transportive.

[Olivia Mentor]

It also immersive.

[Becca Freeman]

Way more unexpected.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. And I think it does. The sort of warm and fuzzy feeling it provides is different, but I felt it more intensely than I felt like, emotionally affected by atmosphere, even though I was. And I thought it was beautiful.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree with that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. What about you? Would you rank Project Hail Mary higher?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. I'm trying to figure out how I can say this without spoiling Project Hail Mary for anyone who hasn't read it, but there's such an unexpected element in it that was so delightful to me that even though nothing about Project Hail Mary on its surface is a book that I would like, I adored it. And also, if you are a newer listener, when Olivia joined the podcast In April of 2022, we did project Hail Mary as a book club episode. So if you want to read that book or if you're getting ready with the movie coming out next year, like, we do have an episode about that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Go.

[Becca Freeman]

Listen, I brought us astronaut ice cream. Do you remember that?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I do.

[Becca Freeman]

It was not good. I had that in my drawer for a long time because I had to buy like a three pack.

[Olivia Mentor]

We should bring it back when the movie comes out. We're gonna have to do a bonus episode just reviewing the movie full circle.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you feel like you would read more space books or, you know, you read this because it's Taylor Jenkins Reid. You read this because.

[Olivia Mentor]

Because it was.

[Becca Freeman]

The listeners picked it. Project Hail Mary is its own thing. Are you curious about more space books? Because I'm asking because I did my book matchmaker email last week and one of the queries that somebody submitted was like, basically wanting more astronauts in love. And I was like, oh, wow. I don't know if that exists. But also, I don't know that I need more.

[Olivia Mentor]

Personally, yeah, I think I do want more, but I feel about it the way I feel about sci fi, which is that when I read sci Fi, that hits me. I'm obsessed with it, but I've tried a lot of it and a lot of it doesn't hit for me. So it's very few and far between. I think I'm reading a book right now that's sort of sci fi and it's like apocalyptic survival. I also like that which somehow feels related to Project Hail Mary.

[Becca Freeman]

So.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Are you going to seek out more space books? It seems like probably not. No, no, no, you're good.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm earthbound.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's understandable.

[Becca Freeman]

Much like Joan at the end of the book, I would like to keep all my extremities on the ground.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, me too.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I feel like we had that conversation in the Project Hail Mary episode. Like, we must have. Like, would you go to space? How would you fare in space? The answer is bad.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, the answer is I wouldn't be there. And if I am there, I've been sentenced to some sort of punishment.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm a detriment to the team, not an asset.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm being sent up to some sort of experiment. That's the only. It's like Olivia is. We're done with her. Like, let's launch her up there, let's send her up. Let's see how tall people do in space. Something like that. That's the only thing I can think of. The tall people space experiment that I keep hearing about is finally going to kick off.

[Becca Freeman]

Are astronauts generally short?

[Olivia Mentor]

I would assume they can't be that tall because that's gotta be a rule. Okay. Right. I'm gonna look this up.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. Do you want to know one of my favorite space facts?

[Olivia Mentor]

Sure.

[Becca Freeman]

That. I guess it wasn't Sally Ride, but the first time that a woman was in space on a prolonged mission, NASA sent 100 tampons for six days and they tied them together like sausages.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's disturbing. Well, you will be happy to know the minimum height requirement for astronauts is 5 foot 2 inches, and the maximum is 6 foot 3. So I would make it. Jake would be cut off.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, he's.

[Olivia Mentor]

I wonder if he knows this.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, poor Jake. He has allergies and he can't go to space.

[Olivia Mentor]

Let's break his dreams. You also have to have 2020 vision in each eye.

[Becca Freeman]

Nope.

[Olivia Mentor]

But it says corrected vision. So I'm like, you can contacts and you have to have certain blood pressure, but it has to be when you're in a seated position. Anyway. Wait, no, I'm. Wait, hold on. See, AI is bullshit. This is. The AI said the 5 foot 2, the 6 foot 3, but scroll down and then you get a NASA link that says you can't be more than 5 foot 11 inches.

[Becca Freeman]

Really?

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, specifically in the Mercury space capsule, actually.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, so maybe they have taller spacecrafts.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm really. So that. That would. I would be out then. Okay, whatever.

[Becca Freeman]

I could go. But again, they don't want me. I cannot emphasize that enough. What a detriment I would be in space.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm saying that, like, that is the only thing holding me back is my height. It's not every other issue that I have. Like, for example, the fact that I don't want to be there. That would be number one.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man. Okay, well, let's take one more ad break, and then we will get into some Ed matter. This episode is sponsored by Quint's. I don't know about all of you, but sometimes I absolutely hate getting dressed in the summer. Because all I want to wear is the most simple, basic, lightweight, comfortable items. And I never seem to have enough of them. But this is why I love shopping at Quince. They have things like 100% European linen tops, starting at $30, washable silk dresses and skirts and soft cotton sweaters. So versatile warm weather pieces that you will reach for again and again. And the best part is that everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands.

[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com bop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com bop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com bop.

[Becca Freeman]

All right, Olivia, what are you obsessed with?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm obsessed with Alexandra Skarsgrd's current media circuit interview circuit. I might be a little behind on this, but I, for some reason have been seeing tons of Alexander Skarsgrd interview clips lately. Am I alone in this?

[Becca Freeman]

No. He just did a press tour for whatever his most recent movie is. Now. I've gotta know because I have heard that he got a new stylist in advance of this tour. Are you obsessed with him and like, the quotes he's putting out or are you obsessed with the looks? Is the combination.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's a combination. He just has this very specific sense of humor that I find amazing. I don't know what it is. It's so dry and weird and just like he does not give a fuck. He's in these short, tiny shorts, these ridiculous outfits. He pulls them off. He looks cool, calm and collected. And have you seen the clip going around from Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard? Taylor Swift, about Taylor Swift?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I don't know. For some reason that made me laugh. I just. He's such an interesting person. His family is so interesting and his sense of humor is so bizarre and strange and I just can't stop watching them.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm a big Alexander Skarsgard fan. Like, I have been a fan since the Eric Northman days of True Blood. A blonde man usually isn't my celebrity crush cup of tea, but Alexander Skarsgrd, like, does it for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, he's beautiful and just a tall drink of water. He's very tall.

[Becca Freeman]

He could not go to space.

[Olivia Mentor]

Tall. So tall. Handsome as hell. I was like, oh, maybe it is about him. This narrows it down. But there's just something about his attitude and his sense of humor I find just intriguing. So I keep watching the interview clips. But anyway, that's it. That's what I'm into. What are you obsessed with.

[Becca Freeman]

Sorry, I'm trying to picture him in my head. I might need to pull up a picture. Is he a bird or a potato?

[Olivia Mentor]

Alexander Skarsgrd.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

I feel like a bird.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I agree.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like a very.

[Becca Freeman]

Like a falcon. Like an intense bird.

[Olivia Mentor]

Not a delicate bird, as we've established. Pedro Pascal is a falcon.

[Becca Freeman]

We will never agree.

[Olivia Mentor]

I will fight you on this till the day I die. It's the one thing I've never. I've never. I watched him again in Eddington last night, and the whole time I was like, falcon, falcon potato.

[Becca Freeman]

Falcon potato.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, what are you obsessed with?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I'm obsessed with watercolor. It's all I want to talk about. I feel like every day this week, all day, I'm like, I can't wait to watercolor when I'm done with work. Like, I'm so into this hobby, but specifically, I made this little doodle guy of Ruby, my friend's dog, dressed as a chef, making lobster rolls as, like, a little card to give my friends in Maine. And the way that I delighted myself with this pretty bad painting that I made. Oh, my God. I was like, I forgot how delightful making art that isn't particularly skilled can be.

[Olivia Mentor]

I like this hobby. It sounds so fun and rewarding, and.

[Becca Freeman]

I've really unlocked something. And I was thinking the other day, I. You know how I feel like it's come up multiple times this year on the podcast how much I love painting pottery. You know what you can do just paint. Not on pottery. And I never put that together.

[Olivia Mentor]

Apparently, the Color Me Mine or whatever it's called. People don't want you to know that you can take a piece of printer paper and just go to town. They do not want you to know. They want you to have to use a kiln. But you heard it here, and it's.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, I don't know that the pottery part is, like, particularly important to me. Like, I don't use these things most of the time afterwards because they're not like. I don't know if they're, like, microwave safe or. I don't know if you're supposed to eat off of them.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I'm sure you could.

[Becca Freeman]

God, I'm loving watercolors.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good. I'm so glad.

[Becca Freeman]

I have a cart full of other, like, exercise books to buy.

[Olivia Mentor]

So when I was going through my coloring phase, I just acquired, like, 45 coloring books. Okay, Are you doing sort of that, or are you kind of trying to work through one, then get another one? What's your strategy so you don't go wild or are you going wild?

[Becca Freeman]

The one that I bought, it's 30 days of activities, and I'm on day 18. And it builds skills. So you learn, like, new, different skills about either technique, how to draw, like, increasingly complex things, or, like, something about, like, light or shadow or whatever. Every day I feel like I need to finish this one, but at the end of it, this sounds so silly. And the ruby thing was an exception, which I really enjoyed. I'm like, what do I paint? So I feel like I need more guided exercises to, like, I almost want to. Like, there are watercolor coloring books where you just kind of color it in. And I'm like, oh. Like, maybe I'm going to get one of those so I don't have to worry about, like, deciding what it is or, like, the shape of it and just. I can just fill it in and, like, learn how paint and water works and, like, learn more about, like, brush technique and control. So I feel like, yeah, we'll see.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's a good plan. Brush technique. I love, you know, this skill.

[Becca Freeman]

You know, the other thing is that I'm like, I'm trying not to make this about getting good at it, which is so hard for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think once you bring in the words brush technique, you. You might already be heading down that path. But he. There's nothing wrong with it as long as you're. As long as it's bringing you happiness.

[Becca Freeman]

But that's the thing is, I don't want my happiness with it to be dictated on how good or bad it is. Like, I want to do something playful and fun, and maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. And to have the activity be its own reward versus the outcome, I am.

[Olivia Mentor]

Fully supportive of that.

[Becca Freeman]

Work in progress.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, what have you read?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so I read this, obviously, and then I read this book that I really enjoyed that comes out in August. It's called Loved One by Aisha Muharrar, and it comes out August 12th. And this author apparently was a writer on Parks and Rec. She was a writer or is a writer on hacks. So, like, comes from screenwriting. And the book is pitched as an emotional mystery, which I've never seen before, is positioning. And I was like, oh, I love that term. But the book is about a woman who's 30 and her best friend dies suddenly. He's 29. It's like a freak accident. And she kind of gets obsessed with knowing things about him outside of their friendship. And she kind of gets obsessed with his ex girlfriend who lives in London. And she's kind of like a restaurateur slash florist. And so she goes to London and kind of puts herself in her path and both her and the girlfriend have their own secrets about aspects of their relationship with the deceased. I found this so compelling. I loved it. It also has the man who Dies is an indie musician, so it does feel like it kind of has some DNA in common with Deep Cuts. Emotional mystery really works for me. It's not scary in any way. It's not actually a mystery. It's just like what's going on between these people. I really enjoyed this.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds great. August 12th.

[Becca Freeman]

August 12th. And it's definitely dealing with a heavier topic. The first scene is his funeral, but I didn't find it to be overly sad or heavy, which is, I feel like kind of a no fly zone for me right now. Like, there's a bunch of books that I've heard such good things about and I'm like, oh God, this just sounds way too heavy for me right now. And even though this is dealing with a really heavy topic matter, it didn't feel like something I couldn't handle right now. Okay. So I want to call that in case anyone's like, wow, that pitch sounds like a downer. What about you? What have you read?

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I read Atmosphere. Yep, great.

[Becca Freeman]

Cover it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also read what Kind of Paradise by Janelle Brown. And this is about a young woman who grows up in this very isolated cabin in Montana with her father who homeschools her and has these very extreme ideas about the world and what happens when she kind of discovers more and more about who he is, who she is, who her mother was. I don't want to give away too much, but set in the 90s, this woman grows up in this very isolated cabin in Montana. The writing is beautiful. I really liked this. I especially loved the Montana scenes. Like, I just love a small, isolated little world. Like, I love it so much I can't get enough of it in fiction. And I thought the author did such a good job of just writing what it would be like to have the only person you really know in the world be evil. Maybe. Or maybe not. I'm trying not to give anything away, but I've seen this one everywhere and I really enjoyed it.

[Becca Freeman]

Would you like to talk about our book club pick for August?

[Olivia Mentor]

I would. I don't really know the full pitch of it, but I will announce the title and author. Our August book club pick is the Night and the Moth by Rachel Gillig. This comes highly recommended by our own Becca Freeman, who is here with us today. Becca, tell everyone what it's about.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I thought this would be very different from anything we've picked this year so far. I know we've been very literary heavy. We've been reading books with tougher themes. I don't know, I just thought this would be such a good departure. So this is a Romantasy, but it is unlike any Romantasy I've ever read before. It's very atmospheric and Olivia has been talking about how she can't wait for it to be fall. It feels very dark and gloomy and wet and like, like almost in a sepia toned.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wet.

[Becca Freeman]

Wet? Yeah, like gloomy. I don't know. So this book is about a woman who is a female prophetess who is in service to this church and tells rich people's futures. And her fellow prophetesses start to go missing one by one. And so she teams up with this knight who does not believe in any of this, does not believe in the gods. It's in a different realm that's like a multi God system. He doesn't believe in any of this and she has to team up with him. She like runs away from the convent to figure out where her sisters have gone. And there's no dragons, there's no fairies, There are non humanoid elements. There's like gargoyles, but it doesn't feel anything like fourth Wing. It doesn't feel anything like Acotar. Like it feels totally its own thing. There is a romance, it's a little bit spicy, but it is not like fourth wing where there's like a lot of sex scenes. I loved this. It's very viral on TikTok, I think. But I don't know anyone who's read it in real life and so I can't wait to read it and discuss it. I feel like, Olivia, this is like your brand of romantasy.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh.

[Becca Freeman]

Like if there's a. Well, if there's a Romantasy that you can get into, like, the writing is really great. It's very atmospheric and very like setting heavy. Like, I feel like you'll really enjoy it. Also, I gotta say, I respect the hell out of a romantasy novel that's 400 pages. It is not overly long.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm excited to read this. I don't think I've read Romantasy since I read Fourth Wing. Well, well, no. I tried the second one and didn't get very far. But I am ready. There are a lot of Romantic Eve readers in my life and sometimes I feel just on the outskirts of the cool club.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, hopefully this is in the Venn diagram. I mean for us, but also for you and them. I'm really excited to read this and talk about this, and I feel like it'll be a good transition into fall book.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I'm ready. I've got my fall TBR in my head and this is now at the top of the list. Oh, starting in August.

[Becca Freeman]

Can't wait. So we will discuss this the last Wednesday in August. In the meantime, you picked our book for July. We need to hear your thoughts. So please come talk to us about atmosphere in the Facebook group in the Geneva group. You can find us on Instagram and see if Maddie has been able to concoct a graphic of Olivia dressed as Xenon girl of the 21st century. Maddie's on Paper podcast why I am on Instagram ecamfreeman. My newsletter is Becca Freeman substack.com I.

[Olivia Mentor]

Am all the places at Olivia mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And we will see you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye bye.

[C]

Olivia. Happy birthday to you to this very day, the 14th of March. We're wishing you many happy returns, you supernova girl. That's Lucas and Rachel. Up myself, protozoa. Zoom, zoom, zoom. You make our hearts go boom, boom, boom. I hope you're having a wonderful day. You're staying dry. You're not in the pouring la rain like this. He's got a fantastic podcast and I'd.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like to hear it.

[C]

Is there a way you can send that to me? All right, well, listen, lots of love. You're a published author, you're married, you've got a dog.

[Olivia Mentor]

Dog.

[C]

It's all incredible. You're a very, very busy lady. Well, zoom, zoom, zoom. You make my heart go boom, boom, boom. Lots of love. Happy birthday, Olivia. Bye.