Bel Canto Book Club

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: Bel Canto Book Club Episode Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Bad On Paper
• Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
• Episode: Bel Canto Book Club
• Release Date: October 30, 2024

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1. Introduction and Personal Updates

Olivia and Becca open the episode by sharing their personal highs and lows to set a relaxed and relatable tone for the discussion.

• Olivia’s High: Olivia expresses excitement about an upcoming book fair and her new Substack format. She shares feeling productive and pleased with her current busy schedule.

  • Olivia (00:48): "I've just been really like busy lately... I just feel like now I'm really full steam ahead."

• Becca’s High: Becca looks forward to a weekend getaway upstate, highlighting the meticulous itinerary Olivia has prepared. She also shares her joy in rearranging her office, which has made her workspace feel more personal and comfortable.

  • Becca (02:21): "The weather is peak fall, like timing wise. I can't wait to hopefully see some foliage, eat an apple cider donut."

• Olivia’s Low: Olivia recounts a frustrating experience with a faulty computer charger that disrupted her workflow, emphasizing her dislike for technological issues.

  • Olivia (03:54): "I hate tech stuff going wrong. It really just bugs me in a very specific way."

• Becca’s Low: Becca admits to falling off her workout routine despite feeling successful in other areas of her life. She reflects on the challenges of maintaining all aspects of personal productivity.

  • Becca (05:22): "I just looked around and I don't think I worked out in a month."

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2. Overview of "Bel Canto" by Ann Patchett

Before diving into the discussion, Olivia provides a succinct plot summary of "Bel Canto."

• Olivia (08:04): "A famous opera singer is flown in as entertainment for the birthday party of a powerful Japanese businessman. But midway through her performance, the party is infiltrated by a band of terrorists and all the guests are taken hostage."

Becca acknowledges Olivia's initial reservations about the book, setting the stage for a deeper analysis.

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3. First Impressions and Reading Experience

Olivia's Perspective:

• Olivia shares her struggle to engage with the book despite recognizing its literary merit. She cites the lengthy chapters and minimal dialogue as factors that hindered her enjoyment.
  • Olivia (09:19): "I was dragging myself through the pages. They felt incredibly long... a lot of trouble with very little dialogue."

Becca's Perspective:

• Becca describes her mixed feelings, appreciating the book's depth and recognizing its quality but feeling it wasn't her preferred type of story. She mentions the lack of deep character connections and limited dialogue.
  • Becca (10:05): "I could recognize that it was good... something about it felt like school reading... It did not feel like my type of book."

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4. Insights from the Annotated Edition

Becca delves into insights gained from the annotated edition of "Bel Canto," revealing behind-the-scenes details about the book's inspiration and Ann Patchett's reflections.

• Real-Life Inspiration: The book was inspired by the 1996 Japanese embassy hostage crisis in Lima, Peru, where hostages were held for 126 days.

  • Becca (16:24): "This book was directly inspired by a real life hostage situation at the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru in 1996."

• Ann Patchett’s Reflections: Patchett revisited the book years later to add handwritten notes, offering a critical and reflective perspective on her own work.

  • Becca (12:03): "She marked up the pages... it was so cathartic that she ripped parts of her book to shreds."

Discussion on Annotated Versions:

• Both hosts express a desire for more annotated editions from their favorite authors to gain deeper insights into the writing process and characters.
  • Olivia (13:43): "I love the idea of more annotated books."

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5. Themes and Narrative Style

Narrative Style:

• The book employs an omniscient third-person narration, seamlessly transitioning between multiple characters' perspectives without causing confusion.
  • Becca (17:32): "It feels really beautiful. It lends so much perspective."

Themes:

• Communication and Language Barriers: Central to the book is the challenge of human connection without a common language.

  • Becca (38:20): "Ann Patchett said that the book focuses on the question what do we do without a common language?"

• Redemptive Power of Art: The role of opera and music in bridging cultural and emotional gaps among the hostages is emphasized.

  • Becca (38:39): "The unifying power of art."

• Wealth Disparity and Empathy: The contrasting backgrounds of the wealthy hostages and their captors highlight issues of privilege and empathy.

  • Becca (38:39): "The wealth disparity in this book... the very rich men in this hostage situation and their captors being so much less privileged."

Character Analysis:

• Mr. Hosokawa: A reserved Japanese businessman whose passion for opera is juxtaposed with his business dealings. His character embodies the themes of guilt and responsibility.

  • Becca (38:20): "He felt responsible for this situation in some way, and he ends up stepping in front of a bullet for one of the children."

• Roxanne: The opera singer who becomes a central figure due to her talent and the way she influences the dynamics among the hostages and captors.

  • Becca (35:21): "She brings in the music. She's like, I'm gonna practice. I'm gonna be productive."

• Gen Watanabe: Another main character who, along with Roxanne, forms a key relationship in the aftermath of the hostage situation.

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6. Reactions to the Ending and Epilogue

Ending:

• The abrupt and violent conclusion, where the terrorists are killed, left Olivia feeling unprepared and unsatisfied with the pacing.

  • Olivia (33:05): "It just felt very abrupt to me."

• Becca felt the ending was fitting given the themes of guilt and sacrifice, particularly Mr. Hosokawa's role.

  • Becca (44:33): "I felt like it was fitting... he ends up stepping in front of a bullet for one of the children."

Epilogue:

• The epilogue, which reveals the future marriage between Roxanne and Gen, sparked mixed reactions. While Patchett intended it as a culmination of their shared experience, the hosts found it jarring and somewhat disconnected from the book's main narrative.

  • Becca (48:40): "It felt really jarring to me, just in the prose and... it was like in a piazza in Italy."

• Ann Patchett’s Explanation: Patchett explained that the epilogue was envisioned as a wedding day in Italy, aiming to provide closure to the characters' relationships.

  • Becca (47:34): "I imagined a wedding day in Italy... nothing sadder than Roxanne and Gen having to spend the rest of their lives together with people who would never understand what they had lost."

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7. Comparisons to Other Works

Similar Books:

• "Anxious People" by Fredrik Backman: Becca draws parallels between "Bel Canto" and Backman's book, noting similarities in the ensemble cast and confined setting, though she prefers the latter's literary depth.

  • Becca (54:37): "Fredrik Backman... like a more modern and more overtly comedic take on the same premise."

• "Never Let Me Go" by Kazuo Ishiguro: Becca mentions a similar feeling of recognizing a book's quality without personal enjoyment.

  • Becca (10:05): "I read Never Let Me Go... I recognize it's good, but it's just not my thing."

Narrative Style Comparison:

• Olivia likens the pacing and narrative blocks of "Bel Canto" to Sally Rooney's "Intermezzo," highlighting a similar literary and contemplative style.
  • Olivia (26:09): "Something about it... reminded me a little of Sally Rooney."

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8. Controversial Aspects and Author’s Approach

• The book's portrayal of Japanese characters by an American author raises questions about cultural representation and accuracy. Both hosts discuss the potential controversies of writing from an outside perspective.

  • Becca (53:20): "If a white woman wrote two Japanese men as main characters, I just don't. I find people."

• Political Context: Becca reflects on how the book's themes resonate differently in light of current geopolitical events, feeling that the book's tone clashes with real-world violence and suffering.

  • Becca (28:28): "It feels really complicated... in light of what's happening in Israel and Gaza right now."

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9. Conclusion and Future Book Club Pick

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts reveal their next book club selection and encourage audience engagement.

• Next Book Club Pick: Ina Garten's memoir, Be Ready When the Luck Happens, aimed for a cozy Thanksgiving read.

  • Olivia (61:26): "We are going to do Ina Garten's memoir, Be Ready when the Luck Happens."

• Audience Engagement: Becca invites listeners to join their Facebook group to share thoughts on "Bel Canto" and discuss its relevance over time.

  • Becca (61:54): "Tell us what you thought about Bel Canto... You can find us at all the places. Batonpaper podcast."

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Notable Quotes

• Olivia (00:48): "I've just been really like busy lately... I just feel like now I'm really full steam ahead."
• Becca (02:21): "The weather is peak fall, like timing wise. I can't wait to hopefully see some foliage, eat an apple cider donut."
• Olivia (05:54): "No one's doing it all."
• Becca (16:24): "This book was directly inspired by a real life hostage situation at the Japanese embassy in Lima, Peru in 1996."
• Olivia (13:43): "I love the idea of more annotated books."
• Becca (35:21): "She brings in the music. She's like, I'm gonna practice. I'm gonna be productive."

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Summary:

In this episode of Bad On Paper, Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into Ann Patchett's Bel Canto, exploring its narrative structure, themes of language and art, and character dynamics within a hostage situation inspired by real events. While acknowledging the book's literary prowess and innovative storytelling, the hosts express mixed feelings regarding character development and the abruptness of the ending and epilogue. They also discuss the challenges of writing authorship across cultures and the contemporary relevance of the book's themes. Comparisons to other literary works and discussions about annotated editions enrich their analysis, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Bel Canto and its place in modern literature. The episode concludes with a preview of their next book club selection, inviting audience interaction and continued engagement.

Transcript

[Olivia]

Hi everyone, and welcome to Bow and Paper podcast. I'm Olivia, mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia]

And today is our Bel Canto book club episode. Our book club episode for October. There's a lot here. Becca put together a banger of an outline and I'm ready to dive in.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm ready to teach a masterclass on this book. Or maybe not teach a masterclass, just talk a lot.

[Olivia]

I am too, but I feel like you have the more interesting information, so I'm ready to go through it all.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, before we get into that, what is your high?

[Olivia]

My high is that I've just been really like busy lately and I have this book fair coming up, which would have already happened when this goes live, but I've been just dealing with that and then I'm writing a lot. I've been working on substack. I have sort of a new substack format I've been experimenting with and I'm really excited about. And it's just been busy in a good way, I guess, for most of the past three months. I've just been in this sort of limbo state waiting for stuff with work and book stuff and I just feel like now I'm really full steam ahead. I'm just productive and busy and happy and excited to see you this weekend and yeah, it's just good.

[Becca Freeman]

It's always great when busy falls on the high side of the highs and lows spectrum.

[Olivia]

Yeah, it's true. It's a good busy. It's like a. Oh, I'm doing so many things I'm excited about and happy about and yeah, it's a very good feeling.

[Becca Freeman]

That's great.

[Olivia]

Well, what's your high?

[Becca Freeman]

My high is absolutely that I'm coming upstate this weekend. The Reddit haters can rejoice that I finally weaseled myself an invitation. I. I am so excited. Olivia is so cute. She has put together like frankly, almost a minute by minute itinerary of what we're going to do, but like with cheeky commentary, like, I can't wait.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I was also busy doing that. I'm not always productive things, but I do love a funny itinerary. So I'm really excited to give you the small town gossip tour of Columbia County.

[Becca Freeman]

I cannot wait. I can't wait to also just. I feel like the weather is peak fall, like timing wise. This feels great for me too. I'm very excited to hopefully see some foliage, eat an apple cider donut. Like, cannot wait. So the rest of my high is my office is still continuing to be such a high point. Like rearranging my office. I was talking about last week and I just rearranged it literally 10 minutes before we started recording. So I was optimistic, but I didn't really have any proof. I have spent so much time in my office this week. It feels really cocoony in a great way to me that it's like my little workspace. And I don't know why I feel so differently having just swapped two pieces of furniture. And then also there's this chair behind me. I have sat in this chair a sum total of one time since I moved into this apartment over five years ago. And wow, it probably feels so lonely this week. It has become like I've written in it, I'm reading in it. Like, the energy of the room to me just feels so different.

[Olivia]

It kind of reminds me of that feeling when you shop your closet and it's like something you already own that suddenly becomes really exciting.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

So it's like this chair has always been there. You didn't have to even. It was free, basically, because, you know, it was just right there and it made your office better. And it's a great feeling.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I'm still so excited about my office.

[Olivia]

It looks beautiful.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. What about on the low side?

[Olivia]

Oh, I've had some, like, technological difficulties lately. And I left my computer charger in South Carolina when we were there in September, and so I ordered a cheap one on Amazon because I needed it for the next day to record. And that was a mistake because yesterday I was working and I was like, really in a groove and my computer just announced that it was dying. And so I went to plug in my charger and it just wouldn't work at all. So I had to interrupt my workflow, go to Staples, which R. Staples. I won't bring you there on the tour, but our Staples has what I would describe as a truly apocalyptic feel. Like I don't know what is happening in there. It is one of the most terrifying, liminal spaces I have ever been in. It's like what feels like 10,000 square feet, completely unnecessary. This is a Staples, but I hate going there, and I had to go there, but I got a charger and it worked, so I'm grateful, but it was just. I hate tech stuff. Like, I hate tech stuff going wrong. It really just bugs me in a very specific way. Sorry, but what's your low?

[Becca Freeman]

My low is just that I. I feel like I'm in a really good groove. Writing wise, mentally, life wise, socially, in every other aspect. And I have just completely fallen off with workouts. And I just feel like it's like one of those things where it's like everything else is working. There's gotta be the one thing. And I just looked around and I was like, I don't think I worked out in a month.

[Olivia]

I feel this way lately, too. Like, I was really in a good groove. And then I feel like I figured out everything else. And then I was like, well, this I've given up on, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

Totally. And I keep booking Pilates classes, then canceling them. I'm still paying for my membership, and I just cannot. It is the one plate that I can't keep spinning right now. And I think because I'm trying to finish a draft of this book, I'm hoping by Thanksgiving, but we'll see. I'm like, maybe I just figure it out after.

[Olivia]

It's always something.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

No one's doing it all.

[Olivia]

No. Well, let's take an ad break and then we will talk about this book. This episode is sponsored by Cozierth. I just want to take a quick second to shout out a very specific person in this world, and that is whoever is naming the products. Over at Cozy Earth, my latest product obsession is their Cuddle blankets. There's also a version of this called a bubble Cuddle blanket.

[Becca Freeman]

This sounds so cute.

[Olivia]

It sounds adorable. And they look so luxurious. I get targeted ads every day because I look them up so much. So Cozy Earth is just like, we know you want this. I just every time I hear the name and see it, I want it. And I'm very much considering getting one to make my fall and winter even cozier than I know they will already be.

[Becca Freeman]

But here's the thing about Cozy Earth. It is not just brilliant product names and marketing. I am obsessed with all of their products. The products that I've tried are all just as soft and high quality as you expect. So take for example, my favorite bamboo pajama set. They're so cozy, but they're also so well made and they're so durable. My Cozy Earth joggers. My Cozy Earth wide leg pants. My pajamas, like, all get worn a lot and they wash so well. Like, I have not had any issues with, like, needing to replace anything.

[Olivia]

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[Becca Freeman]

Go to cozyearth.com batonpaper and use code Bop for an exclusive discount for up to 40% off. That's 40% off with code BOP. And just a note that if you get the post purchase survey, say that you heard about Cozy Earth from this podcast.

[Olivia]

So before we get into the discussion, let's do a quick plot summary of Bel Canto by Ann Patchett. So a famous opera singer is flown in as entertainment for the birthday party of a powerful Japanese businessman. But midway through her performance, the party is infiltrated by a band of terrorists and all the guests are taken hostage. The book tells the story of their captivity over the following months as guests from many different countries, many without a common language, remain hostages at the resident of the vice president of an unnamed South American country.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, Olivia, I feel like I got some red flags from you. Last week you mentioned that you had started this book and it didn't sound like we were gearing up for a rave. Ann Patchett, stop listening. If you're listening.

[Olivia]

No, I mean, okay, so it's funny is that when I said that and you got those vibes, I had read about a hundred ish pages and I was like, kind of on the fence. I would say I was on the fence. I just could not get into this book. I don't know what it was. It was like, as I was reading, I was like, this has so many elements. I love. The writing is beautiful. Obviously, I feel like it's a me problem. I don't know what it was.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree with that.

[Olivia]

I just, I was like, I was dragging myself through the pages. I have a couple theories as to why. One is that the chapters were 9,000 pages long. Oh, I did not. Did you notice how long? Oh my God. I think I had gone more than a hundred pages and it was like three chapters or something. I don't know. They felt incredibly long. And it was also like, I don't know if you noticed this really long blocks of text with a paragraph baked, no dialogue. And I think like some combination. I don't know, it didn't work for me. I feel like I did something wrong though. Cause everyone loves this. Everyone. And on paper I should love it. And I just, I was struggling. But how did you feel about it?

[Becca Freeman]

I hear you. So I had a very weird experience with this book because I felt exceedingly medium about the book itself. However, it also, I think, has ended up being one of my favorite reading experiences, which I can get into. Why? But like, the Book itself, I feel like I could recognize that it was good. Like, something about it felt like school reading, where you're like, I can tell this is good. I can tell this has important things to tell me. It's not really my thing. Like, it did not feel like my type of book. And I think from my end, I kind of diagnosed it as, first of all, mostly male characters, which I don't tend to care as much about, to be honest with you. I also had a lot of trouble with very little dialogue. And I get that that's part of the point of the book, that they don't share a common language, so, like, they're not talking to each other. But that was really hard for me. Like, I did have a similar feeling when I read Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro recently, which was also on the list of the hundred best books of the 21st century by the New York Times. And that prompted me to read that book. That also prompted me to really bump this up and want to read this book. And, like, in both cases, I was like, I recognize it's good, but it's just not my thing.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I'm with you. I completely recognize it as being good. And there's so many moments of beautiful language, but I just was not invested, like, in the outcome in any way for some reason. And then the outcome really threw me also. Like, I got to the end, and I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I actually Googled to make sure I understood. Okay, so explain to me more about what you said about really enjoying the reading experience of it, because I feel like I know what you mean, but I want to hear you talk about it, because I think I've had this with other books, too.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I don't think you know what I mean. Or maybe you do. I don't know. So I read the book, but then I also read it alongside Ann Patchett, or Ann Patchett's publisher is putting out an annotated edition of this book, and it comes out November 5th. And I read somewhere or somebody told me that basically she decided to release this version because there's so few books coming out with the election that she wanted to give indie booksellers a reason for people to come into their stores because she also owns Parnassus Books in Nashville, which is an indie bookstore. And so the annotated version is a hardcover version of this. And it's like the text of the book is kind of centered and smaller on the page, and then it actually has her handwritten notes on it and she went back this year or last year and re read it and like marked up the pages. So it was so fascinating to see Ann Patchett, one of the greatest writers of our time, come back to this book that she wrote in 2001. You know, whether she was reading it in 2023, 2024, like come back to it some years later, like almost a quarter of a century later and reflect back on it and like also be critical of it. It was fascinating. Like I think any person who is a writer, well, I guess anyone who loves this book first of all would love the annotated version. But then anyone who's a writer, I found it so fascinating but also really cathartic that she ripped parts of her book to shreds.

[Olivia]

I wish every book had this option.

[Becca Freeman]

Me too.

[Olivia]

And wait, I actually have a question for you. As you were talking, I was thinking, what is another book that you wish there was an annotated version from the author that you would just the second you heard it was coming out, you're first in line or you like want to manifest it?

[Becca Freeman]

I think any Emily Henry. Well, I think it has to be a very large author because you know, to not just sell the regular version, but then for people to want to buy a second version of something. Like, I think you have to be a pretty famous celebrated author. So I'm like any Emily Henry just to hear what inspired some of her jokes or like how things ended up the way that they are in the book. Like I know everyone is like, I'm convinced that in Happy Place originally she didn't quit her job in Move to Montana. I would love to know those stories behind it. So I would say anything. Emily Henry I think would be really fascinating. Thinking more of a literary novel. I mean she would never do this. This would be never in a million years. But I would die to read an annotated copy of a Sally Rooney novel.

[Olivia]

That's the most. Can you imagine?

[Becca Freeman]

She would never do it.

[Olivia]

Sally Rooney would be like, how dare you even ask me. I just finished Intramezza, by the way. But we'll get to that at the end.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? What would your dream be to read an annotated version of?

[Olivia]

I mean, I think any of my favorites that I talk about, like any of Gillian Flynn's books I think would be fascinating.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that would be really fascinating with a thriller to point out what the clues were. Oh, this is the Lisa Jewell book that I read recently. None of this is true.

[Olivia]

None of this is True.

[Becca Freeman]

I would actually love that book specifically for her to tell me what is and is not true in it. Somebody sent us a fascinating like notes app screenshot that somebody had been dming with Lisa Jewell and then Lisa Jewell sent them a list of like what was true and not true. But I would love to see that in the text.

[Olivia]

Yeah, same. And also it'd just be interesting, like the parts that weren't in the book to the very end or that were almost not in the book or the way something was different. I would be fascinating.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I know you didn't love this book, but I almost feel like you need to just look through the annotations on the annotated version.

[Olivia]

I definitely will do that. I'm actually reading different, but it's like an annotated version of Wuthering Heights right now. Oh, and the first annotated it 50 pages. I don't know, some scholar or whatever. A lot of it is just defining certain terms that are kind of old timey. But there's a whole hundred page intro about how the book came to be and about the Bronte sisters and stuff and I'm really, really enjoying it. Anyway, we're really off topic, but I love the idea of more annotated books.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I hope it does well so we get more. But one of the things I learned in the annotated version, which was not on my radar, was that this book was directly inspired by a real life hostage situation at the Japanese embassy in lima, Peru in 1996, where I guess the hostages were held for 126 days after it was the birthday party for like the Emperor of Japan, I think. Did you know that this book was somewhat based on true events?

[Olivia]

No, I have no idea. That is very interesting. Also. 126 days is so long.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Well, it's also fascinating because the book came out in 2001. So in 1996 this was five years old. But this has been lost to the sands of time for me. Like, everything old is new again. I was like, this feels so completely like it would never happen in real life and yet it's based on a true event.

[Olivia]

Yeah, absolutely. What did you think about the narration in this book or the perspective? I should say. It's kind of like, I don't know, like, what is it? Omniscient third?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

[Olivia]

What did you make of that? Did you have any feelings either way?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. The thing that's so hard about this book is like my writer brain is saying, oh my God, this is incredible. This is such a feat that she uses this omniscient narration and kind of goes in and out of so many people's heads, even in the same paragraph. And it doesn't feel confusing. It feels really beautiful. It lends so much perspective. Like, as a writerly feat, I thought it was great. As a reader, I just wanted more backstory. I didn't feel like I had a character to grab onto, like, I guess we would say. But the main characters were probably, like, Mr. Hosokawa, Gen Watanabe and Roxanne the opera singer are kind of the three main characters. And then I guess you could maybe debatably say Carmen as well, but not until, like, the second half. And I just. I wanted more backstory. Like, I feel like the first character that we're introduced to is Mr. Hosokawa, who's the businessman whose birthday party it is. And, you know, that would usually indicate that he's, like, the main character of the book. But part of it is Japanese culture that he's so reticent and just reserved as a person, that he's. He's not very emotional about the events that are happening.

[Olivia]

I mean, like, none of them are kind of.

[Becca Freeman]

None of them are.

[Olivia]

Yeah, it's a very, like, reserved experience that you're reading about.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

But it's not, you know, it's incredibly intense and violent, even. But I felt. And maybe this is my larger problem with the novel, but I felt zero emotional attachment or, like, relatability or, like, connection to any character. Like, none of them. But at the same time, it's not that they weren't well developed. They were. It's just that I didn't find myself.

[Becca Freeman]

Well in some ways. I don't think I know any detail about Roxanne outside of opera. Like, I know she grew up in Chicago. I don't think we got a single memory from her childhood or her opera training or anything outside of her being a famous opera singer. And, like, one of the most, like, specific memories I can recall from her point of view is the accompanimentist who dies early on declaring his love for her on the airplane. But, like, outside of that, like, I just. I'm like, are you single? Have you been married before? Have you been in a relationship? Like, I don't know anything about your life.

[Olivia]

Do you think that that was a way to sort of reflect this idea that, like, they were really in this other universe? Like, it was almost like their other lives stopped? And in this house where they're all being held hostage, there was, like, New rules, kind of. And, like, this is all that mattered before was not relevant because that's kind of how it felt with, like, Mr. Hosokawa and his wife. It was kind of like, well, I'm here now. None of that matters. It seems really distant. All that matters is this.

[Becca Freeman]

I think in some ways, I actually felt like I had the most backstory on him. Like, there's a memory of his father taking him to the opera for the first time. There's a bunch of recollections about his relationship with opera versus, like, the passion he feels for that versus how he feels about his business. Like, there's a scene of him courting his wife. Like, I felt like I had the most of him, but he just was, like, a fairly unemotional person. Yeah, maybe it was that. I definitely felt like it was more like the trade off of having such a large cast and trying to understand so many people in a shallow sense versus going really deep with one character, which I didn't. I don't know that I would have said before this book, but I've learned that I strongly prefer.

[Olivia]

Yes, I agree.

[Becca Freeman]

Another thing that was really interesting that was revealed in the annotated version was that Ann Patchett said, and this is a spoiler, so if you plan to read this book, I'm gonna spoil the ending right now. She said that there was originally an introduction chapter from Gen. The first line was, this is the story of how I met my wife.

[Olivia]

Oh, I would have loved that.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you?

[Olivia]

Would you have preferred that? I personally like the idea of that a lot.

[Becca Freeman]

I like that. I like that as a container. She said that one of her friends who read it said that it was training wheels and that she didn't need it. And so I guess it is more surprising where it goes. But I do like the container of, like, it's the How I Met yout Mother, you know? And then you watch Nine Seasons to find out how he met your mother.

[Olivia]

I also think it would have helped with the sense, at least I felt, while reading that I didn't really, like, know where it was going because the attitude of everyone at various points was like, we're never gonna leave. Whatever. Like, maybe something violent will happen, maybe something won't. And then when the end finally did happen, it felt very. I don't know. It didn't feel surprising or fitting, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia]

I was confused. But I would have really liked that. But I do understand that, like, that might be seen as more safe, I guess, to some writers.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm curious if there were any of the side characters that you had a particular affinity for.

[Olivia]

I guess I liked the kid at the end who was good at singing, but it felt so towards the end that I was like. I didn't even get a chance to really like him. And then he was dead. It was really fast. What about you?

[Becca Freeman]

I loved the vice president. I loved the vice president who was.

[Olivia]

Hosting the hostage situation.

[Becca Freeman]

And he's cleaning and he's like, buffing the floors and making sure everyone has what they need because it was his party. And then everyone is in a hostage situation. Four months later, he's, like, hosting this kidnapping. I was really delighted by him, and I was also delighted by his pettiness with regards to the president. Like, I thought that was great.

[Olivia]

This actually begs a question, which you put in this outline. And as I was rereading it, that Ann Patchett kind of reread it and re explored it to see if it was funny. I did not find it funny, but I can kind of see some of the humor. But it wasn't like. I don't know. What did you think of that?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Well, first of all, she says she never rereads her books, which I can understand. I think a lot of authors don't. I don't know how I feel about rereading my own books yet. She said she wanted to know because this was the book that really broke her out as an author. She wanted to know if it was her best book, if she felt that way. And then the two things that she said she was reading for was to see if the book was funny and to see how she felt about the epilogue, which is the thing in her writing career she has gotten the most feedback on and the most negative feedback on. So with regards to your question about funniness, like, yes and no. If we roll this up in an umbrella to, like, the umbrella category being war novels, because it's like a politically motivated kidnapping. Yeah. This is on the funnier side of war novels compared to an actual comedic novel. No, I did not find it particularly funny. But there are moments it's funny at the line level, but it's never ha, ha funny. It's like, oh, that juxtaposition is witty. It's a very genteel form of funniness.

[Olivia]

Yes. There were some parts about. I think there's one part where they assume that Roxanne can cook.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Olivia]

That was funny, I found funny. But if someone said, like, you gotta read this hilarious book, I would be like, Are you okay?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I would be very confused. I would be very confused about that. And I was listening to an interview with her the other day. Not related to this book. It was related to her career. And then she was specifically talking about the Dutch House and. And she was saying that she thinks she's a funny writer, but nobody else does.

[Olivia]

I mean, live your truth.

[Becca Freeman]

Live your.

[Olivia]

Like that's all that matters. Live your truth, Anne. You're doing well.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

You're doing really well. So. But maybe it's just a different type of humor, you know?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, maybe it's a different type of humor, but also this book is a literary novel, first of all. So, you know, if we're comparing it to other literary novels and there are funny literary novels. Yeah, I would say it's funnier than most. It's just, I guess. What do you compare it to?

[Olivia]

This felt more literary to me than Tom Lake. Would you agree?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, absolutely. One zillion percent. Which was surprising to me.

[Olivia]

That threw me too. A lot.

[Becca Freeman]

Because you haven't. Have you read any other Ann Patchett's?

[Olivia]

I read the Dutch House.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. I have not. Tom Lake is the only one I've read. I tried to read State of Wonder and I didn't love it, but I was surprised by how literary this felt as well.

[Olivia]

It actually. Something about it, specifically the length of the blocks of text and the chapters, reminded me a little of Sally Rooney, weirdly because I was reading Intermezzo at the same time.

[Becca Freeman]

Anyway, well, how about we take a quick ad break and then let's get back into it because I have a lot more thoughts. This episode is sponsored by Prose. I've officially used Prose shampoo and conditioner for more consecutive years than I think any other hair care products that I've ever used. Except for Maybe the Pantene 2 in 1 I used when I was a kid. So the reason is so simple. The customized formula is literally created to work for my fine oil prone medium hair. It's specialized to me. Other products try to be one size fits all and it's just never effective for everyone.

[Olivia]

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[Becca Freeman]

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[Becca Freeman]

Okay. Another thing that was so surprising to me about this book was that it was incredibly sedate. Like, it was a slow burn.

[Olivia]

That's a good word. That's a good word.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, it was a slow burn for a book about a hostage situation. When I read that description after the New York Times 100 Best Books list, I was like, oh, wow, this sounds so much plottier and pacier than I would have expected for a novel called Bel Canto. I was right the first time. Like, I guess. Did the juxtaposition work for you?

[Olivia]

No.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia]

I mean, I don't know if it was again, like, I wasn't prepared for it to be as literary as it was, or my brain was just like, hostage situation. Like, it needs to be faster paced, like, what is happening? Or all the structured stuff. That just didn't work for me. But, no, it felt very slow to me in a way that I usually enjoy. But it was tough for me this time. But what about you?

[Becca Freeman]

So I found myself getting angry at some points. And this is not Ann Patchett's fault. Like, Ann Patchett could not have predicted our current political climate when she wrote this in probably 1999 or the year 2000. But, like, something about this book just felt really complicated to me in light of what's happening in Israel and Gaza right now, which, again, Ann Patrick could not have known 25 years ago. But there was something about this thematically where it was like, it's kind of this beautiful life to be kidnapped. And Mr. Hosokawa is like, I always wanted time to listen to music. And like, I think one of the French men says, like, I always Wanted time to listen or something. And like.

[Olivia]

And also like, isn't it so beautiful that we can teach these children these wonderfully. Know was kind of a little.

[Becca Freeman]

And there was something that at some points I was like, I get that the point of this is like art bringing people together, music bringing people together. And you know, these terrorists or guerrillas or whatever we're going to call them are, Are not as brutish as they seem when they take over this dinner party. But I'm like, this just felt so tone deaf to our current time of like, I don't think that anyone who is held hostage by Hamas is like having this beautiful time discovering opera. And like, likewise, you know, no government and like foreign superpower is fucking leveling the country that the guerrillas are trying to liberate. Like, you know, there was something about it that at this particular moment, at times I was like, I can't.

[Olivia]

Yeah, that's a good point. And I also think, like, this is not a political book. You know, it's like a political situation, but it's really more of a story about. What would you say this is a story about.

[Becca Freeman]

About our actual human connection.

[Olivia]

Okay, there you go. You've got. You've got it. So. And I think today it's harder to write a book in the context of something political, something like war, and not be on some level talking about that. And maybe it was just easier then.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, you know, obviously the author could not have predicted this situation, but this book did come out the same year as the 911 attacks. The book came out in May and so before. Yeah, it came out before. But, you know, this book, I assume to be such a blockbuster, had to have been continuing to sell throughout the year and in the years after. And like, that's really fascinating because that was a point in our country where we were probably like the least receptive to humanizing a terrorist.

[Olivia]

Well, they all died.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, yeah, but at the same time, so much of it was like, these people are misunderstood and this boy is the greatest opera singer of our time.

[Olivia]

Yeah, that's interesting. The timing is interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

I was trying to find anything about this book in the context of 911 and I couldn't find anything. I wish there was a bibliography of critical takes about this book, and I would love to read something from around that time.

[Olivia]

I also think it's hard because so much of the book is like this really kind of leisurely, like artistic, very quiet. And then it's just like everyone dies in one violent outburst. And that's literally how fast it Feels to me like there felt like there was no buildup to that at all to me. And that was tough. And then the epilogue, you get into it, and it's also this, like, really slow, leisurely thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Were you surprised by the love plotline? That really shocked me, based on the first half of the book. And I feel like those really only come in in the second half. And I was like, oh, I did not realize this is where this was going.

[Olivia]

I knew they were in there somewhere, I guess I don't understand why there was two. Like, could we have had one? And both of them felt a little weird to me. I'll be honest.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, the pairing of Gen, Carmen felt very strange to me. Mr. Hosokawa and Roxanne actually felt fine to me, despite the fact that he's married and they don't speak the same language. I was like, let's go. Like, strange. Badfellow is like, let's go. But Gen and Carmen felt really weird to me, specifically because they talk about how young the gorillas were.

[Olivia]

She's 17.

[Becca Freeman]

She's 17. But the way they're talking about them, sometimes, it makes it sound like they're, like, 12. They're really childish. And I was like, huh? And now you're in love with her. I was like, this makes me uncomfortable.

[Olivia]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

And, like, there was at one point where I thought it was just like, we were shocked that she was a girl when we thought she was a boy and we're admiring her beauty. And then I was like, oh, no. Oh, we're in love with her. Okay.

[Olivia]

Yeah, we're having sex in the closet. It's happening.

[Becca Freeman]

I did find the gender roles in this book really interesting, because on the one hand, well, I mean, all of the hostages are male except for Roxanne. So there are so many more male characters populating this space. And then there's maybe about halfway through the book, we find out two of the gorillas are girls, and they both, I feel like, have fairly underdeveloped backstories, as does Roxanne. You did point out the scene already where Roxanne. Somebody tries to get her to cook, and she's like, I don't know how to cook. Roxanne is also like. I did feel like it was telling and accurate that Roxanne was the first one to get over the wallowing of the situation. And she brings in the music. She's like, I'm gonna practice. I'm gonna be productive. And everyone is reacting to her. And she's really the one who both Moves the plot along, and then also who moves the mood and the power balance along. But I don't know.

[Olivia]

The gender role felt like everyone being obsessively in love with her.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. I actually loved that.

[Olivia]

I kept thinking in my mind, if this was a real situation, which I guess it was, like, who is the celebrity that would be the person that inevitably, like, everyone is going to declare their love to at some point? Like, who is the Roxanne of our modern times?

[Becca Freeman]

But I don't even think it's that because I think it's like having a work crush, where it's like, you are just in this confined space with this person who, I mean, she does have an incredible talent, but you're just, like, in this place with somebody so many hours a day, and you're like, I'm in love with this person. Then you. You, like, see them outside and you're like, why?

[Olivia]

It actually did make me think about growing up in a really small school for, like, 10 years and how everyone ends up dating or, like, having crushes, but in reality, like, no one is. No one is really good for each other or probably even, like, would be attracted to each other outside of that environment. So that's definitely a good point.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah. But I loved how everyone was using Gen to try to help them declare their love for her, because nobody spoke the same language as if, like, what was going to happen. And I especially loved. I mean, the only one you actually see. You see a lot of the men think about it and you know that they're talking about doing this. But I loved the scene with the Russian when he declares himself to her. And I thought it was very interesting, both in that her having her public Persona of just, like, being like, yes, I am used to this. I will accept this declaration of love. Thank you so much. And I know the appropriate way to handle this, where he is seemingly genuinely in love with her and she is like, this is a fan interaction. But then also, I thought it was so interesting when he goes into how Americans have too narrow a definition of love, and he's like, oh, my wife would be angry anyway. Like, he wasn't actually proposing that they. I don't know where they would run away to, but you know that they actually get together. He was just like, I just thought that I should tell you that I loved you because when else will I get this chance to. And I, like, I thought there was something very beautiful about that.

[Olivia]

I agree. I do have to say I feel really bad for the accompanying. At the beginning.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, the poor diabetic accompany us.

[Olivia]

Good. Good God. That man got the short end of the stick at every. Every turn. It was just the descriptions of him being sick were so painful to read. That was a heartbreaker, but also like a little. You're not really meant to like him. Yeah, exactly. You're kind of like, oh, you're a little bit sad.

[Becca Freeman]

So in the annotated version, which I swear, whatever I'm giving you here, it's still so worthwhile to get it. Like, I'm not giving away all the good stuff. Ann Patchett says that the book focuses on the question what do we do without a common language? Was like her central theme. Did you find that to be what you gravitated towards most? Or were there other key themes that you would have said are the point of this book?

[Olivia]

That's interesting. No, I mean, it is so much about language that it makes sense to me. But I think there was just a lot going on and it was hard. Kind of like we touched on. It was hard for me to land on just one theme that felt really, really pertinent to me. I don't know what about you?

[Becca Freeman]

I guess I agree that that's the theme. I would have maybe articulated it slightly differently about, like, the unifying power of art. I think that was not necessarily the theme that was most interesting to me in it. I think there was something about, like, the wealth disparity in this book. And I kept thinking of, like, what would this book be like if it were written in a modern context? Like, there's so much dialogue about billionaires right now. And it's like, I don't know that specifically net worth wise, the men in this hostage situation are billionaires. But, like, it is these very rich, unsympathetic men in this situation who Ann Patchett extended so much empathy to in her writing. And I feel like in a modern context, there's like a very Lord of the Flies esque version of this that you could tell. And I thought that the disparity of these very rich men in this hostage situation and their captors being so much less privileged and the detail of all of the kids have their spaces where they go and one kid being obsessed with the bathtub and just how being in this hostage situation is such a. Not a privilege for them, but it's such a contrast to how they live. I thought there was something really interesting about that. And then also how the slowness of not having responsibilities of like, you know, most of the men are government officials or businessmen. Like they're appreciating the slowness of the situation and how that's a luxury to them versus, you know, running water, beds, et cetera, is a luxury to the terrorists. I don't know. I thought there was something really interesting in that.

[Olivia]

It's very interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

I also thought there was this one moment, and I don't think this is the central theme whatsoever, but I did think that there was this one moment that I was really interested in, where Mr. Hosokawa and Roxanne talk about guilt, where he asks Gen to apologize to Roxanne because if not for him, she wouldn't have been in this situation. And how he never had intentions of building a factory in this country. And, you know, if he hadn't loved opera, she wouldn't be here. And then she says, well, I could also be to blame. Like, I said no a lot of times. And I've said no to many of these things in the past. And I made them, like, raise their rate five times. And then I said yes, where it's like, if she hadn't said yes to this monetary offer, then, like, he wouldn't have been there. And I thought that was really interesting. And, you know, objectively also, it's none of their faults, but I thought that conversation of how you perceive or role in blame was really interesting.

[Olivia]

I think that the ending kind of has. Like, there's the ending before the epilogue, and then there's the epilogue.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. We have to both put them separately. You cannot group them together.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I feel like I had whiplash from both in very different ways. But how did you feel about the ending before the epilogue?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, so I have to admit that I spoiled it for myself because in reading the annotated version, and she said it in the upfront, she said, if you've never read this book before, don't read this first, because there'll be interruptions and there'll be spoilers. And I decided I didn't really care. And so, you know, maybe on. I don't know the exact page number, but on, like, page 13 or something, she points out to this moment where she says, this is where I tell you exactly what's gonna happen, that all the terrorists are going to die. And nobody really paid attention to that line because everyone's still so surprised at the end. And she, like, says it in plain black and white. So I knew that. And then I also knew, because of when she talks about the epilogue and how people were so mad that Gen and Roxanne ended up getting married, I knew that was gonna happen, too. So I didn't know quite how things were gonna happen, but I did know the terrorists were going to die.

[Olivia]

You knew they were gonna get married. I feel like that changes a lot because, I mean, that's the epilogue. But when I got to that point, I was like, what?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, so, I mean, okay, so I knew it was gonna happen. So I'm not the right person to ask if it was surprising, because I knew. But there was something about the lead up to the ending that was so after school, especially, like, the. The vice president was going to, like, adopt this kid as a second son. Like, enjoy explaining that to your wife. Like, hey, I've adopted this teenager who held me hostage, and he's our second child now, and he can teach our other son how to read. Or, like, who knows? And then, like, the Roxanne teaching Cesar how to sing and being like, he's the next great opera talent and I'll bring him to Milan. Like, everything felt just a little too far of, like, we have too much sympathy for our captors. And again, they're children. But I was like, we have gone too far. And there was something in me that was like, this can never happen. That cannot be the whole thing.

[Olivia]

And also, the end kind of just felt like a dream.

[Becca Freeman]

What did you think was gonna happen? How did you see it? Cause were you reading a physical copy? Like, you could see the pages dwindling. Cause the ending really happens in, like, 10 pages.

[Olivia]

I assumed that there was gonna be some giant act of violence and people were gonna die, but it just felt very abrupt to me. It's like, oh, the kid that just started singing is now bleeding out on Roxanne. Like, okay. I didn't really have time to like him, but, like, I guess he was cool. So, like, we're really just really moving on. And I was like, okay. Wow. Whoa. And then we got to the epilogue, which we've touched on.

[Becca Freeman]

But how did you feel that Mr. Hosokawa was the only hostage who died?

[Olivia]

I don't know. I didn't feel really sad that he died, which sounds, like, terrible, But I was kind of just like, he got to live his dream.

[Becca Freeman]

I felt like it was fitting. Yeah, he got to live his dream. But I felt like it was fitting also, given the conversation about blame and guilt and that he felt responsible for this situation in some way, and he ends up stepping in front of a bullet for one of the children. It felt right to me. That did feel right.

[Olivia]

Yeah. I think it made sense, given the themes and him.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, let's take a quick ad break and then let's talk about this very controversial epilogue.

[Olivia]

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[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia]

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[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I was similarly impressed by the sweater that I got. I don't think in a blind test I could tell the difference between a cashmere sweater from here and something that was three, four, five times the price. $50 for a cashmere sweater is just such a good deal. And they have eight zillion colors for their core sweaters, so this is a great tip to stock up. Also, this would be great for gifting, so get cozy in Quince's high quality wardrobe essentials. Go to quince.combop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.combop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.combop all right, Olivia, we gotta talk about the epilogue. I copied this from the annotated version to hear what Ann Patchett said about it. She said, the second thing I wanted to know was whether or not the epilogue held up. If I may make a generalization based on more than 20 years of audience questions, many people hate the epilogue of this book. I've been asked if my publisher Forced me to write it, or if they wrote it themselves and stuck it in there without my knowledge. Did I actually like the epilogue? In all my years of giving talks, it's the only question I'm sick of answering, but I'll answer it here again. I love the epilogue. And it was always the ending to the book. Before I wrote the first sentence, I imagined a wedding day in Italy. I could think of nothing sadder than Roxanne and Gen having to spend the rest of their lives together with people who would never understand what they had lost.

[Olivia]

You know what's weird is that it's not that I hated the epilogue. I was just kind of like, a little confused by it. But reading that explanation, it does make more sense to me. It makes even more sense when you consider that one of the first lines or the first line was, this is how I met my wife. That feels a little bit more like. It would have been kind of a full circle thing to me. Did that change how you felt about the. How did you feel about the epilogue? I asked. You knew, so.

[Becca Freeman]

So I wasn't surprised. It felt really jarring to me, just in the prose and, you know, it was like in a piazza in Italy. The quick change of setting, having more dialogue, that everyone speaks a common language. All of a sudden, like, just everything about it felt so disparate from the text of the book, which sounds like it was sort of the point. So, okay, here's the thing. I would hate it if somebody was doing this for my book. But, like, I hear what she's saying. I feel like there was a bit better way to express this point. Like, I wonder if there could have been a different scene after they're already married, where, you know, they're somewhere and they hear a car backfire and they think it's a gunshot or something, where it's like, something where, like, Gen and Roxanne are married and they have an experience. They look at each other and it's like they're not in love, but they're grateful for each other because, like, they are the only two people who could understand this thing. Yeah.

[Olivia]

At least me. I didn't get to the epilogue and then think, ah, yes, there were all these little things in the book that pointed to exactly this. That's what made it, to me, a little difficult. But maybe there's a different way to read it where you do see those things a little more clearly.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I don't think the point was that they were in love at all. And I also would have loved some it seems like they were getting married like a year after the hostage situation ended.

[Olivia]

And.

[Becca Freeman]

And I almost wish there was like an allusion to them going back and trying to live normal lives and not being able to like, you know, Gen goes back to Japan and he's like, I can't be here. We don't need to see it. Just like a quick sentence telling me that or something. So I don't know. Like, I. I get the intention, but I found the execution very jarring. I also did not like the last line of the book whatsoever.

[Olivia]

What was the last line?

[Becca Freeman]

The last sentence was Thiebaud was sure there had never been such beautiful women. And the beautiful women came to them and held out their arms. And I was like, first of all, why are we in the French guys pov? Second of all, if you think of a last line as like summing up the book, the sum of the book was like the absence of beautiful women and now they can possess the beautiful women.

[Olivia]

Well, this kind of. Okay, so this makes me want to talk about the fact that this book was so widely popular because I don't really view this book as like, widely accessible to a lot of readers. Like, it felt very literary, kind of in the way Intermezzo was to me, where I was like, I don't think a lot of people would finish this because it's not like a pacey, you know, it's different. So what do you think made it hit so hard with people?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I do think that we have to acknowledge that the reading landscape was probably very different in 2001. Like, commercial romance did not exist. It was like, you know, the supermarket checkout line, mass market paperback Fabio romances. You know, if we say that Gone Girl ushered in a new era of thrillers, like, that didn't exist. Like, I constantly see people lamenting the death of book criticism in terms of like magazines and other outlets covering books. So I do think, like, theoretically we're just more literary readers and like, the reading that was happening was more literary. But I do think that as a society and readers, especially because they are art loving people love a book about the redemptive power of art in some way.

[Olivia]

That's true. I mean, opera isn't really important, but I don't know many people who know anything about opera or care about it.

[Becca Freeman]

That's true, but I didn't know. I didn't feel like that was necessary. Like, I felt. I didn't know the pieces of music that Roxanne was playing. Like, I've been to the Opera once or twice, but I don't have an extreme passion for opera, but just the redemptive power of any artistic medium.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I mean, that's universal for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

But it's also something that I feel like the reading population wants to believe in more than the average bear.

[Olivia]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you have any theories about why this was a breakout for her?

[Olivia]

I feel like people love a locked room mystery. Or not mystery, but suspense.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. There is something slightly Agatha Christie about, like, the contained setting.

[Olivia]

Yeah, that's kind of my best guess. I mean, it's beautiful writing. Maybe I'm not giving readers enough credit. Maybe it's just me that thinks that this is not as accessible other bestsellers. But, I mean, I love Ann Patchett, so the more success she has and had, the happier I am.

[Becca Freeman]

The other thing that I was really struck by as I was reading this is like, this book strikes me as a huge challenge to take on as a writer. Like, two of the main characters are Japanese men. It's a politically motivated hostage situation in a country that the author does not have deep, direct experience. Like, do you think this book would have gotten written today, or do you think Ann Patchett would have written this book?

[Olivia]

No.

[Becca Freeman]

No, Me either.

[Olivia]

No way.

[Becca Freeman]

I think it would be too controversial given the political climate. And I think it's more acceptable in literary novels to write outside your lived experience. But. But I cannot imagine even an acclaimed writer taking on writing two Japanese men and people not just ripping that to shreds. No matter whether or not it was a good. If a white woman wrote two Japanese men as a main character, I just don't. I find people like.

[Olivia]

You can call them.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Olivia]

Yeah. I think for me, the political stuff, I just don't. I think it would be too hard not to say that she shouldn't have written it then, but I think it would be too difficult. So do you have any books that come to mind that are similar to this?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God. I have to imagine it was inspired by this. But I couldn't stop thinking about the book Anxious People by Fredrik Backman. So this is probably from two or three years ago. Fredrik Backman, who wrote Beartown, who wrote A Man Called Uwe. It's basically like a more modern and more overtly comedic take on the same premise, where it's basically all of these different people at an open house to buy a apartment. And this young kid who's a bank robber was trying to hold up the bank across the street and ends up running away and coming to this apartment and taking all of the people at this real estate showing hostage. And it's again like different people who are. There's not an aspect of language barrier, but it's just different people who don't know each other, who come from different, very different situations and backgrounds who are all of a sudden trapped in this, you know, I think the situation is a one day thing too, but like are trapped together in this high pressure situation.

[Olivia]

It sounds great. Would you say you like that more than this?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes, I think the writing in this is more beautiful. I think like the insight into humanity and art is really beautiful and anxious people does not have that. But I do think that it felt more akin to my reading preferences and tastes.

[Olivia]

I think for me, nothing really.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, it's a very singular premise of like birthday party gets taken over by terrorists.

[Olivia]

Yeah. There's something about it that reminded me of Sally Rooney's writing style. I don't know why, just something about the pace. But no, it's pretty singular. Right.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, let's get out of this because I want to hear your takes on Intermezzo. But before we get to that, what are you obsessed with?

[Olivia]

I am obsessed with Andrew Garfield.

[Becca Freeman]

He is killing this press tour.

[Olivia]

Does the man sleep? I am both impressed and a little scared for him because we went to that screening of his movie, what feels like years ago at this point and he was there and you know, I was like, oh, you know, he's probably wrapping up this press tour. Oh no, he's got like a month more of events. But I am so charmed by him. Like it's getting to the point where I'm like, how much of this is really forced or how much this is you? But I don't care because I like it so much. And oh my gosh, I just, I watched the chicken shop date. I was like. Jake was like, wow, you're really smiling over there. I was watching it on my phone.

[Becca Freeman]

And he really was thinking of leaving you.

[Olivia]

Jake, like the Sesame street thing, when he does the thing with Elmo and he's like, I'm feeling a little sad today. Elmo, That's a terrible accent. But I love him. Like, I love him. I just. My celebrity crush of the moment.

[Becca Freeman]

It's really interesting because I don't think I obviously knew who he was. I knew that he was Spider man, but I don't think that I had a very deep consciousness of Andrew Garfield or of his work before this. I don't know that I've ever seen an Andrew Garfield movie. Before this. And so I'm really charmed. Yeah, I don't think so. I'm really charmed in discovering him for the first time.

[Olivia]

Yeah, well, welcome. It's. It's you and I and the rest of the world. Yeah, well, what are you obsessed with?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so do you remember a few weeks ago when I told you about the red Mary Janes that I bought from an Instagram ad from this brand called Vivaya?

[Olivia]

Is that the one with the ankle monitor or is that.

[Becca Freeman]

No, no, that's different.

[Olivia]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

It was just like the.

[Olivia]

I don't remember. They sound great.

[Becca Freeman]

In an Instagram ad. I was like, oh, all right, let me take one for the team. It's like a square toed Mary Jane and I bought it in red and I loved it. And I thought I had talked about them on here, but maybe I hadn't. But I ended up liking them so much that I went back and I got another pair in black because I. It's like all I want to wear right now.

[Olivia]

I love a good Mary Jane.

[Becca Freeman]

They're so cute. They're almost like. I think it's kind of like a Rothy's material, but it's the way it's constructed. It looks like corduroy.

[Olivia]

Interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, so they're interesting texturally. I think the shape is really on trend. And they're super padded.

[Olivia]

They're super comfortable and breathable, I imagine.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know if I've worn them anywhere. That's hot. So I don't know if I can speak to that. But you'll definitely be seeing them this weekend. Okay, so get into reading. I can go first. I read this book. Your turn.

[Olivia]

Okay. I also read this book and I made good progress with Night Circus. So I have like, I don't know, 50, 75 pages left. But I also finished Intermezzo by Sally Rooney, which is about two brothers who are kind of dealing with life in the wake of their father's death. Various relationships they have with women. That's pretty much the entire story.

[Becca Freeman]

This is like the zeitgeist book of the moment.

[Olivia]

Yeah, I liked it. I didn't love it. I saw someone say, this is like not a good introductory Sally Rooney book because it's very choppy. Like the structure that she. It's like every sentence is like dark. The night I saw a tweet that.

[Becca Freeman]

Was like, why is Sally Rooney writing like Yoda?

[Olivia]

That's exactly. That's exactly what it's like. It's like shiny. The light on the lake it's just. It always starts with the description. It's hard. But then I found myself really getting invested in the characters and the relationships, which is what she's good at. So, yeah, liked did in love. But I think she'll be okay.

[Becca Freeman]

You know, I don't know. I will read this at some point. I feel right now a little overwhelmed by the discourse around it. So, you know, give me like six months until it's not relevant, and then I'll read it.

[Olivia]

I would love to know what you think. I was thinking about your review of Beautiful World. Where are you? I think that's the title.

[Becca Freeman]

Did you also have the feeling of, like, I either love this or hate this, and I don't know which. And like, either it is stupid or I am stupid and I'm not sure which?

[Olivia]

Yes. Around the, like, I would say 15th description of someone's wet, warm mouth, I was like, I think. I think I may need to move on. But there were parts of it that really worked. So, yeah, I had a similar feeling to Bel Canto when I was like, I think I should like this more. But I don't know. Report back.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, I will. Olivia, would you like to do us the honors of telling us what our November book club pick will be?

[Olivia]

Yes. I'm really excited.

[Becca Freeman]

Our last one of the year.

[Olivia]

Oh, my gosh, it's gone by so fast. I'm really excited about this one. We are going to do Ina Garten's memoir, Be Ready when the Luck Happens. I have heard nothing but good things about this. I am very excited to listen. Read this around Thanksgiving Times. Cozy Times.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm gonna let Ina read it to me. I'm gonna do the audiobook for sure.

[Olivia]

I might do it too, actually. I might. Oh, I'm looking forward to this.

[Becca Freeman]

So please join us for that. But before that, join us in the Facebook group, the Geneva group, wherever. Tell us what you thought about Bel Canto. I'm also curious if anyone read it back when it came out and re read it for this and has thoughts about how it's changed or maybe how their opinions have changed as literature has changed. I'm very curious to hear what everyone else thinks. You can find us at all the places. Batonpaper podcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman.

[Olivia]

I'm oliviamenter. All the places.

[Becca Freeman]

And we will see you next week.