Best of 2025

Summary

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Bad On Paper Podcast: "Best of 2025"

Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Date: December 3, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode kicks off Becca and Olivia’s end-of-year wrap-up with a lively, heartfelt, and candid discussion of their “Best of 2025”—covering personal highlights, new obsessions, favorite pop culture moments, and hard-won insights. Books are notably excluded (book talk coming in a dedicated episode), and the conversation runs the gamut from deep personal growth to the year’s most memorable sandwiches. Expect warmth, vulnerability, fun recommendations, and plenty of signature banter.

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Highs and Lows of the Year

(01:23 – 13:12)

Personal Highs

• Olivia: A magical Thanksgiving outing in Orlando seeing "Wicked" with her five-year-old niece:

  • “She wore her Glinda dress... brought all her dolls... it was so cute. Seeing how unbothered she is by all the things adults worry about—it was really inspiring.” (01:30)
  • Led to reflecting on the grounded confidence and freedom children often have.

• Becca: Turning in the final draft of her second book after nearly three years’ work:

  • “What a way to end the year. I’m really proud of myself... this has been really hard in many different ways.” (03:07)
  • Anticipates a well-earned rest: “I am just gonna take a breath.” (03:40)
  • Olivia on finishing a personal book: “The idea of finding the people that get it... and find something in it that makes them feel less like, ‘oh I thought I was the only one’—that’s exciting.” (04:34)

Personal Lows

• Becca: A classic “overreacting home alone” story involving a frying pan when she noticed a shadow outside her window, convinced an intruder was lurking, before realizing it was a trick of light from workers on a nearby roof.

  • “I look like an absolute nut job…and I’m like, false alarm.” (09:13)
  • “I was like, am I in one of Olivia’s thrillers?” (09:31)

• Olivia: Thanksgiving upended by a stomach bug running through Jake’s family, including the designated cook.

  • “Everyone was together…if we’re gonna get it, we’re gonna get it.” (11:09)
  • Used the time after to sleep and decorate for Christmas, leading to a recovery.
  • “When you work really hard, then you stop, you immediately get sick.” (12:10)

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The “Best Of” 2025 Superlatives

1. Best Personal Win (15:54 – 18:20)

• Becca: “Having a better 2025” after a tough previous year. “Just pulling myself out of the muck and being in a better mindset...my biggest win of the year.” (16:05)
• Olivia: “I’ve felt really settled in my friendships, our house, my career...I’m very all in.” (17:11)
  • Admits feeling settled doesn’t always mean feeling secure, but it’s a milestone.

2. Best Comeback (18:20 – 23:46)

• Olivia: Building deeper confidence grounded in her actions/values, not appearance.
  • “I am having to pull myself up from the down feeling. And that is just confidence...in myself and how I look and my choices and who I am.” (18:28)
• Becca: “Income streams”—facing the reality that writing books doesn’t pay steadily, she grew her newsletter and affiliate income, reducing panic and giving her “more stability and control.” (19:47, 22:13)
  • Advances the conversation on how ‘influencer work’ is culturally diminished: “There’s a lot of misogyny in that mindset…It’s an income stream that largely benefits women and their careers.” (23:12)

3. Best Mantra (24:11 – 27:48)

• Becca: “Consistency is key”—kept her motivated on the book project and in habits.
  • “Reminding myself it’s showing up and being consistent...was something I returned to a lot this year.” (25:49)
  • Ellen Hildebrand, esteemed author, approves: “Consistency is key. This is my number one advice motto.” (24:29)
• Olivia: “Shame is not the way”—identifying shame as her most paralyzing emotion.
  • “Sometimes I think feeling bad is going to make me better...actually the more I sit in shame I do worse. So I try to remember that when I feel shame...it’s not going to help.” (26:31)

4. Best Hard Lesson

(27:48 – 35:10)

• Becca: “You can’t make everyone like you”—after reading negative Reddit threads, she’s working toward thickening her skin.
  • “My first instinct was: I want to stop doing the podcast, shut down, not give any ammo...but I love doing this.” (28:41)
  • Olivia: “I was like, well I’ll just change all these things that they hate...but you can’t. There’s nothing you can do.” (30:36)
• Olivia: “It’s okay to just be...I’ve always had this feeling like I’m not worthy unless I’m improving myself, becoming thinner, making more money. I’ve had to teach myself I don’t have to be constantly seeking betterment to be valuable.” (32:54)

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Pop Culture & Personal Favorites

Best New Artist Discovered (35:24 – 41:30)

• Becca: Five favorites:
  • Painter Frances Featherstone: “Obsessed with her ‘From the Perspective of the Angels’ oil paintings…these could be me in bed reading.” (36:25)
  • Illustrator Anna Kwan: “She live-sketches what she eats in restaurants. So cool.” (36:52)
  • Illustrator Sarah Martinez: “Quick sketches of women…love her color palettes.” (37:40)
  • Author Barbara Borland (“The Force of Such Beauty”): “So severely underhyped…incredible.” (38:29)
  • Balanchine ballet - “Variations on a Door and a Sigh”: “Batshit crazy…one of the most interesting things I’ve ever seen.” (39:37)
• Olivia:
  • Author Allegra Goodman: “Isola and Sam—so different, both amazing. I’m obsessed with her now.” (40:01)
  • Musician Joshua Burnside: “More into Irish folk music than ever, random yet delightful.” (40:47)

Best Sandwich of the Year (41:30 – 44:44)

• Becca: “Hillstone French Dip…don’t care about French dip but it’s so good.”
  • Runner-up: the Potbelly Tuna Sandwich, particularly at LaGuardia Airport.
    • “I wouldn’t do anything differently. I love that sandwich so much.” (42:32)
• Olivia: Fork and Whisk’s chicken salad sandwich in Chatham.
  • “It’s the perfect classic shredded chicken salad on warm focaccia…comforting and hearty but fresh.” (43:55)

Best Song of the Year (44:56 – 46:28)

• Olivia: “Baby Steps” by Olivia Dean. “A perfect song…catchy, emotional, timeless.” (44:56)
• Becca: “Moves” by Suki Waterhouse. “Not a new song, but this year it was on every playlist I made.” (45:56)

Best Movie/Show of the Year (46:30 – 48:58)

• Becca: "The Summer I Turned Pretty" Season 3 for best experience.
  • “Cultural experience…not my highest critical rating, but I enjoyed every second.” (46:33)
• Olivia: "Train Dreams" (Netflix): Sparse, beautiful, moving.
  • “Sound, score, nature shots…the highs and lows of life. Watched it twice in one week.” (47:12)

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Work and Creative Wins

(51:17 – 55:07)

• Becca: Turning in her second book, after major edits and uncertainty about whether it would be publishable.
• Olivia: For “Little One,” set a goal of confidence—stepped into her identity as a full-time author, cared less about reviews or negative opinions.
  • “If this is what I want…then I should be confident, own it, and just settle into it.” (51:59)

Best Source of Inspiration (55:07 – 57:57)

• Becca: Doing “The Artist’s Way” (even partially) with a podcast, which finally gave her permission to focus on process and take away what worked.
  • “Doing something is better than nothing…permission slip I needed.” (56:37)
• Olivia: Her ever-evolving bulletin board, with notes, ideas, and positive feedback.
  • “Little note cards with book ideas are now realized...it’s a visual representation for my brain.” (57:41)

Best Writing Place (58:01 – 59:52)

• Olivia: Her home office: “The bird bath, morning light, candles…just a dream come true.” (58:01)
• Becca: Loves writing at home at her dining table—in silence.
  • “People fetishize writing at coffee shops...but that doesn’t work for me. I like to write at home in silence.” (58:50)

Best Podcast Episode (59:58 – 60:31)

• Becca & Olivia: Their interview with E. Jean Carroll.
  • “So inspiring…she had fight left in her, which was surprising and heartening.” (59:58)

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Miscellaneous Bests

(60:34 – 68:22)

• Best New Skill/Hobby:
  • Becca: Watercolor painting. “Can’t shut up about it...my crush is watercolor.” (60:41)
  • Olivia: Getting (even more) into movies, especially seeing them in theaters.
• Best First (New Experience):
  • Becca: Stepping into a new friend group on a trip—and enjoying herself.
  • Olivia: Teaching a writing workshop to high schoolers; hosting her own retreat.
• Best Purchase:
  • Olivia: Shiseido “Illuminating Micro Spot Serum” from TJ Maxx—luxury skincare at a discount.
  • Becca: Weighted eye mask (“It actually stays in place!”), but also her watercolor kit.
• Best Outfit:
  • Becca: Bright teal vacation dress; brown suede miniskirt with academia vibes.
  • Olivia: All-red color-blocked outfit: “I really like wearing red, and it was a happy outfit.” (68:16)

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End-of-Year Obsessions, Reading & More

(71:01 – 78:38)

• Becca’s Obsession: The “Avoidance Advent” calendar (Inspired by Margaret at "Bad Art Every Day" substack): Tackling one lingering task a day before the new year.

  • “I think this is genius...I might not do mocktails but I'm making my list.” (71:01)

• Olivia’s Obsession: “Pluribus” (Apple TV+), a darkly funny, dystopian series from Vince Gilligan.

  • “It’s everything I love…suspenseful, emotional, dystopian, and funny.” (73:10)
  • Both hosts are watching—theorizing about the show’s mysteries.

• Becca’s Recent Reads:

  • Between Two Kings by Lindsey Straub—“Basilisk porn, but genuinely good. The author’s next is a prequel.” (75:12)
  • I Wrote This for Attention by Lucas Gage (audiobook)— candid, wild youth memoir, less about Hollywood than expected.

• Olivia’s Recent Reads:

  • Rec by Kathryn Newman (sequel to Sandwich)—“So cozy, perfect for the season, with beautiful family dynamics and food writing.” (76:51)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Becca, on growing income streams:
  “Developing these income streams has...allowed me to say, these are work. It’s not only when I’m typing words into my novel that I’m working.” (22:13)

• Olivia, on shame:
  “Shame is not the way. Sometimes I think this feeling will help me be better...but it doesn’t. I create less.” (26:31)

• Becca, on public criticism:
  “What sucks is I love doing the podcast, I love the community we’ve built...the lesson I need to take is not to diminish myself but to fucking get over it.” (28:41)

• Olivia, on self-worth:
  “I have always had this feeling like I am not worthy unless I am improving myself...I’ve had to teach myself again and again that’s not true.” (32:54)

• Becca, on favorite sandwich:
  “I don’t even care about a French dip. Why is it so good?” (42:03)

• Olivia, on settling in as an author:
  “This is what I want—if that’s the case, I should be confident, own it, and just work on settling into it.” (51:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:23 – Highs and lows kickoff
• 15:27 – Start of “Best Of” superlatives
• 35:24 – Best new artist(s)
• 41:30 – Best sandwich discussion
• 51:17 – Work/writing wins
• 55:07 – Inspiration and favorite places to write
• 59:58 – Best podcast episode
• 60:34 – Miscellaneous bests (hobbies, firsts, purchases, outfits)
• 71:01 – Obsessions and hacks
• 75:12 – Recent reads

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Final Notes

Look out for their upcoming “Best Books of the Year” episode—and if you want your book pick featured, send them a voicemail or email as requested in the episode.

Connect with the hosts:

• Becca: Instagram | Substack
• Olivia: Instagram | Substack | Pre-order Little One (Feb)

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This episode is a fun, full-hearted snapshot of two women reflecting on their growth, challenges, favorite things, and friendship at the close of another year.

Transcript

[A]

Hi everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[B]

And I'm Olivia Mentor and we are.

[A]

Starting our end of year wrap up content this week and today we're talking about our best bests of the year for everything except for books, which is separate. And yes, if you want to tell us your best book of the year, that is an upcoming episode, we would love to hear about it. Send us a voicemail. You can either record a voice note on your phone and email it to [e-mail] or you can call and leave us a voicemail at 843-4405-3157.

[B]

I can't wait to hear all about your favorite books. Although I am sort of in denial that we are already starting end of year content. It seems impossible.

[A]

I feel ready. I'm excited. I'm excited both for the wind down of this year and maybe getting some quiet and relaxing time. And I'm excited for the fresh start. You know, I love a a new notebook, a new page.

[B]

Well, let's get into some highs and lows first and then we'll go through this episode.

[A]

Let's what's your high?

[B]

My high is that Jake and I visited his family in Orlando for Thanksgiving, which was a bit of a mess in some ways, which I'll get to in the low. But there was this one day that was really good and I went to see Wicked to the second Wicked with our five year old niece and her mom and it was so cute to just see how excited she was about it. And she like wore her Glinda dress to the theater and she had like all of her dolls and she brought them all with her and they sat in the seat with her and it was so, so cute. And then afterwards we went to like a playground and our nephew is two and so they were both playing and I'm not around kids that much, I'm really not around kids that age that much and it was just this nice reminder of like how unbothered they are by so many of the things that we think about. Like I was just thinking about her walking into the movie theater in her princess dress, like not worried about oh, is everyone else going to be this dressed up or am I going to be the only one? Or is this too much or is this too fancy or too dramatic or like you know, playing on the playground and just not a care in the world, not worried about like tomorrow or the next day or what's going to happen. And it was just really inspiring In a weird way. And it was very refreshing.

[A]

As you're saying this, I'm like, geez, I want to channel some of this.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, same. It was really nice. And so, yeah, that was a really great day with them.

[A]

Oh, that's lovely.

[B]

What's your high?

[A]

I turned in the final draft of my book last night.

[B]

What a way to end the year.

[A]

What a way to end the year. I'm really proud of myself. This has been really hard in many different ways. It took way longer than I expected. I've been working on it since January of 2023 and so it feels really major to have pressed send on that final draft.

[B]

I'm so happy for you. And now you can just enjoy the holiday season, like get some rest, come back fresh in the new year. Yeah.

[A]

I have my list of everything I've put off while I was working on the draft, so I have some catch up admin. You know, the newsletter and the podcast are obviously also on my plate, but I don't think I'm gonna start anything book wise beyond, you know, maybe some light research reading or some brainstorming until January. I am just gonna take a breath.

[B]

What are you most excited about when it comes to publishing this book?

[A]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't think that I've. I don't think that I really thought about that because I feel like there's been this little voice in the back of my head saying, you're never gonna finish this. I don't know. It's felt so far off that now that I'm switching from writing mode to, I guess, anticipating publication mode. I don't know. How would you answer that for little one?

[B]

I mean, I think maybe now that I've had time to sit with it for a little bit. I'm sure when I first finished it I felt a lot like you. Or when it sold, I was just. I don't know, I'm just relieved that it's like happening, I think maybe because this one is so personal to me in a lot of ways. Like the idea of finding the people that get it and that love it or, you know, resonate with it in some way or find something in it that makes them feel a little bit less like, oh, I thought I was the only one that felt this way. Like, I think that idea is really exciting to me in a way that I think I was so nervous with such a bad influence, I couldn't really even get there. So. So yeah, I guess maybe that's it. But again, like, I think maybe it takes a little while to just be like, oh, yeah, it's done. And now it's coming out.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not there yet.

[B]

We'll check back in. Don't worry.

[A]

Okay. Okay. We have time.

[B]

Bullets are low.

[A]

I think you're going to both laugh at and appreciate my low. So on Saturday, I was working on my book. I was in my office, and it's probably noon. It's broad daylight. And I get up from my desk to stretch, pee, get a drink. I don't know what I was doing, but I got up, and there's this one window in my office that I always keep the shade closed because it looks directly into the bedroom of another apartment building. And it's just awkward. I have two other windows in my office, so I just keep the shade down on that so I'm not just peering into somebody's bedroom. And I look, and there's a shadow of a person behind the shade. And it's just the top, like, shoulders up, of a person. And I'm like, is there a person on a ladder outside of this window? And then I'm like, am I the shadow? Am I somehow casting the shadow? So then I'm kind of ducking and weaving and trying to figure out if I'm casting the shadow, and then the shadow disappears. And then it reappears eventually. I'm like, I think somebody's out there. And I'm like, what?

[B]

Wait, tell me. Do I. Tell me again what time of day this is. Noon. Okay.

[A]

Broad daylight. Broad daylight. And I don't hear any noises, but I'm like, I think someone's out there. And I don't often get like this. But for whatever reason, I worked myself into a panic, and I was like, what do I do? So the answer to what do I do? Was not call the police. Leave my house through the door, which is on the other side of the house. Anything, rational or sane. What I do is I'm like, I need something heavy. Like, what can I use as a weapon? So I go. I'm looking around my house. This is not an ad, by the way. I don't think they would like this at all. But there's a Caraway home frying pan on my stove, and those things are heavy.

[B]

Yes. I was going to ask if you had a copy of Katabasis by R.F. kuang, because that thing weighs at least 50 pounds.

[A]

I don't. But I grabbed my Caraway home frying pan, both a cookware vessel and a weapon, and I go into the office, and I'm like, okay, I have to look behind the shade, the drawn shade. And so I'm kind of trying to peer around it. And the whole time I'm like, I think if I can see this person's shadow, they can see my shadow, that I'm just creeping around behind her. I have the frying pan.

[B]

Silhouette of the frying pan.

[A]

Yeah, I have the frying pan poised like a baseball bat over my shoulder, and I look out, and I don't see anything. And I'm like, huh? And I'm like, well, maybe they're on a ladder, and they saw me coming, so they, like, went down. So then I'm trying to look directly over the window to see if there's, you know, someone ducking there, and there's not. And then I'm looking. I still have the frying pan in my hand. And then I'm, like, looking around, and I'm like, what the fuck is happening? Like, I'm positive that was a human shadow. Finally, I realized that there are workers on the roof of the building next door. It is both not the same floor, and it is not even connected to my building. It was just somehow the way the light was shining happened to cast the shadow, and it happened to be at the base of my window, so they. It looked like somebody was coming up. And so I'm looking around, and I finally spot them on this next roof, and I still have the frying pan in my hand. I look like an absolute nut job. And I'm like, false alarm.

[B]

Just making lunch. Yeah.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Just in your office.

[A]

Yep. False alarm.

[B]

Wow. Well, that is scary. I'm glad that didn't happen at night.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I don't think the shadows would have been play at night, but yes.

[B]

Oh, right. Sure. That is how light works.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Forgot that part.

[A]

I was like, am I in one of Olivia's thrillers?

[B]

Well, I think you reacted well.

[A]

You. No, the right answer would not be to deal with it myself.

[B]

True. But, like, if, you know, you had no other choice. Like, you have a weapon in one hand and you have a line to help on the other with the foam, you know, that way you're not caught with just the foam, because what can you do with that?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. Although, I don't know. That frying pan is heavy. I was like, I don't know what damage I was gonna do.

[B]

Oh, it could do some damage, I think, if wielded correctly. Efficiently, anyway. And that's an ad from Kerouac.

[A]

I know, right?

[B]

Well, I'm glad you're all right.

[A]

I'm an idiot who freaked out. Although, to my credit, it really. It really did look like a man was on a ladder or a person was on a ladder outside of my window.

[B]

I mean, very bold if they were to be burgling your home.

[A]

That's the other thing is I was like, what type of burglar is this?

[B]

Not a very intelligent one, I think.

[A]

All right, what about you? What's your low?

[B]

My low? That I alluded to.

[A]

Did you almost kill anyone with a frying pan?

[B]

I did not. Not this time. But, you know, check in next Thanksgiving, who knows? But basically, a stomach bug rolled through all of Jake's family in the five days we were there. Less than five days. And so one person got sick, then the next person got sick, then Jake's mom got sick. Who's cooking Thanksgiving dinner? So it was just all.

[A]

And not just sick. Stomach sick.

[B]

Yeah, stomach sick.

[A]

So it was like, not the holiday for it.

[B]

Yeah, it was not great. And everyone was together. So it's. You know, if we're gonna get it, we're gonna get it. So I was really worried that we were gonna be at the airport and it would in. But Jake and I were fine. I ended up on the way back with like a very mild. I think it was like a very brief sinus infection or something. I'm still not 100, but I'm almost there. And I was so nervous that I was getting the flu or something on the way home. But I'm feeling good now. And we had the weekend, which was so nice. We got back on Friday night, and then we had the weekend to Christmas decorate and stuff. But it was just a bummer because, like, Jake's brother wasn't there for most of the time we were there, and everyone's was out of sorts and kind of the vibes were off. And so I felt really bad. But, you know, it happens that way sometimes. But we took family photos, which was fun, and we had some fun days, and the wicked day was very fun. So I think it's just. There's a lot of stuff going around right now, especially if you have kids in school. I'm sure that's where it originated with the kids.

[A]

But I also feel like sometimes when you work really hard, then you stop, you immediately get sick. Like, I remember in college, I always used to get sick at Christmas because, you know, I would have finals, I would be work, I would be studying so hard. I would be burning the candle at both ends and then I would stop and then I would immediately get sick.

[B]

Yeah, we were just talking about this before we recorded. I think with me, like, I think I was really just run down from like going really hard for a deadline and then going to the city and coming back, going to Orlando, having that trip. And so I came back and I basically just Christmas decorated and then I slept for like 14 hours and I was healed by the Christmas decorations or the sleep. Who knows which one was more effective. But yeah, everyone stay healthy out there.

[A]

Yeah, I was just telling you before we started recording, the one thing I have to do on my list today post deadline that I am forcing myself to do is go get a flu shot and a Covid booster. I've put it on.

[B]

Yeah, I have too. And as soon as I got that sore throat I thought, you dummy. You dummy. So yes, let's do that. We'll hold ourselves accountable. Well, let's take an ab break and then we will get into this episode. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I know that we have received a lot of questions about our favorite cuddle blankets from Cozy Earth lately, so I'm here to catch you up on all of the need to know sponsors, specs and details of our favorite blanket. It really is such a great gift for the holidays, combining comfort and style. And they also have the Bubble Cuddle blanket, which has a distinctively textured design which is extra cozy if that's what you're going for. It is the ultimate holiday gift for.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

All right, Olivia, we have some best ofs. You did the outline and this was a very fun thank you, by the way. While I was finishing my deadline, you came up with some very fun categories.

[B]

I was trying to keep some classics in there while also doing some new ones that I don't know if we've covered before. So I'm looking forward to this.

[A]

Okay, so kick us off. I like that these are like, you know, Academy Award categories where it's like best leading actor drama.

[B]

Yes. Okay, so we're starting with the best personal win of the year. That isn't work related. Kick us off. What is your best personal win? Biggest personal win.

[A]

You know, this is a big question and I really struggled to answer it. I feel like my biggest personal win was just having a better 2025. I don't know how much of that was action versus luck, but I had a crummy 2024 on a lot of fronts and just like pulling myself out of the muck and being in a better mindset I think was my biggest win of the year. But again, I don't know if that was just the cards that were dealt to me or that I actually proactively did anything. So I don't know if I can claim this as a personal win, but it felt good. I will also say that there's another one that's brewing in the background that I'm on the precipice of, but I can't talk about it. Just what everyone loves somebody who has a podcast or, you know, any content creators to say to have a vague, secret thing, but I'm really excited. But it's too jinxy to share just yet.

[B]

It is very exciting, but I do think you should count this.

[A]

Good. Okay, well, I'll count just having a better year.

[B]

Good. We love that.

[A]

What is yours?

[B]

Mine is that I think this is the first year in a while that I have felt really settled. Like, I felt very settled in my friendships. I felt very settled in our house. I feel very settled in my career. Not to confuse that with.

[A]

Look at her face.

[B]

Secure. Because I don't necessarily feel secure in my career, but I feel very.

[A]

She said that and then did a double take.

[B]

Well, I think I'm very clear on, like, I have Chosen this. I have chosen that I'm pursuing being a full time author. Of course, I do other things. Like, I am all in. That doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of insecurity and risk. There is, but, like, I have no doubts about the fact that I am very all in. This is the first year where that has really been the case. And I realize that is work related. But I think in terms of the big picture, like, I just feel very comfortable in a way that I haven't in a long time. And that is a huge win. I think that's so exciting.

[A]

That's so aspirational in a way, to just feel settled. Honestly, it's nice.

[B]

It's nice, but it's taken a bit.

[A]

All right, tell me your best comeback of the year. So something that wasn't going or feeling great that you turned around?

[B]

Well, I think this is something that has been sort of a continuous comeback because I feel like I am constantly, like up and down and I am having to pull myself up from the down feeling. And that is just confidence, like, in myself and how I look in my life and my choices and who I am and. And I think I've gotten a lot better at, like, deriving my confidence from who I am as a person and not how I look. And that takes, like, a lot of unlearning, a lot of it. And it's very difficult, especially when we live in such a, like, appearance obsessed world. And I've really had to get very good at training myself of being like, here are the things that make you feel good about yourself, and they're not the likes you get on a photo or how much you weigh or, you know, like what your face looks like or how many books you sell. But, like, how you treat other people and stick to your values. And not that I'm always perfect at any of that, but I've been very disciplined at, like, trying to come back from feeling low in this way. So I felt good about that.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

What is your best comeback of the year? This is very Oscars, by the way, or like Teen Choice Awards come back of the year.

[A]

I would say income streams. It was something I was really stressed about at the beginning of the year. And look, I have a lot of privilege in every respect. When I was stressed about money, it wasn't, I'm going to be out on my butt. You know, there are safety nets in place. But when I was sitting at the beginning of the year, I was really thinking about where my income was coming from this year. And I had a lot of uncertainty about that because when I signed my book contract, I thought that I was gonna be a full time author. And I completely miscalculated how long it was going to take me to write books and how long these payments were going to be paid out over. And to be honest, I've made no money from books this year. Finishing this book triggers a payment for my second book. But, like, that has been zero income this year. So, you know, really being consistent with and growing my newsletter, which is something that's been, you know, kind of two years in the making. And then also building up my affiliate income revenue stream, which I know you have complicated feelings on, but has been really meaningful to me. And doing these things has made me be able to approach writing books with a lot less panic of, you need to finish this yesterday. This needs to be incredible because your livelihood is dependent on this. And, you know, if books went away, I would really have to scramble because it is still a meaningful piece of my income. But it is not the only piece of my income. And having kind of other buckets that are contributing has been really meaningful to my mental health.

[B]

Yeah, I totally understand that and I think you should be really proud. And I do have complicated feelings about affiliate links for myself, but, like, I have no judgment towards anyone else. And I think that they were part of, again, part of the reason why I started writing fiction because it gave me, like, you know, breathing room in my career and my income. And I think that's why they serve as such an amazing tool for women who are running their own businesses, which you are. So I'm happy for you.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's also given me more confidence to be able to say, I think I've previously felt like the only valid work I'm doing is writing books. And the podcast and the newsletter are things I do for fun. And the affiliate thing is like, oh, just some fine money, pocket money. And I think that developing these income streams has really allowed me to also say, these are work. You know, it's not only when I'm sitting down at my desk typing words into my novel manuscript that I am working. And I think owning that has also been really helpful to take away a tool that I used to beat myself up.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. It's a ton of work. It's a ton of work. It is.

[A]

But I think before some of these things were meaningful contributors to income, I was more apt to dismiss them as work.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's like a larger cultural Thing with, like, anything that is considered, quote, unquote, influencer work is very. Just diminished. And I think it's so much because it's like this income stream that largely benefits women and their careers and their wealth. And I think it's. There's a lot of misogyny in that mindset that I think I personally definitely absorbed when I was doing it. I felt a lot of. Not shame, maybe, but like, I felt a lot of judgment that I think was there from the world. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Is it the most noble profession? Absolutely not. But, you know, before this, I had an email job. I was sending emails and attending meetings. And I think that in my head, I have minimized it myself in a way of it not being work. And so I'm very proud both that I feel like I have more stability and control, and then I feel like I have a broader definition of work.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. I'm happy for you. What about the best mantra of the year? I don't really know if either of us are mantra people, but I think maybe I am more than I think because I tend to write a lot of them down and hang them up all around me. And I think you have some on your bulletin board in your office, too. Or maybe I'm wrong.

[A]

I mean, I have some quotes, but they're longer. They're not. I wouldn't call them a mantra, but I do this exercise every year at the beginning of the year where I make a vision board for the year with images from Pinterest. And some of them do have mantras on them, and it's my desktop background. Earlier in the year, it was my phone background, but I think I switched it away. And one of them that is very front and center. And I feel like I have returned to a lot this year is consistency is key. And it's so funny because when I put this on the mood board and I posted the mood board to Instagram, Ellen Hildebrand, who's one of my writing idols, who follows me on Instagram, rarely interacts with me, has anything to say popped up in the comment section? She was like, consistency is key. This is my number one advice motto. And so I think I was like, oh, wow, if this is working for Elena, I have to take this seriously. And it's something that I've returned to over and over this year because, you know, I just turned in this book project that I've been working on for two years and 10 months. And it, you know, when you sit down at your desk on a random Wednesday, you're like, does this even matter? Does this make a difference on such a long project? And reminding myself it's showing up and being consistent and not just with writing, with other things too, I feel like was something that I returned to a lot this year.

[B]

Yeah, I love that. I also love that it's Ellen approved.

[A]

I know, right?

[B]

I notice such a night and day difference with how I feel about what I'm working on or creating when I just like take some time with it every day. If I step away from it and then I'm just like ruminating on it and what needs change and if it matters and if it's good enough, then I don't. I feel terrible. But the consistency, you're right, is so important. It makes a huge difference and it.

[A]

Makes me feel good. It gives me a sense of pride to be consistent with both working on my book, but also habits and routines that I know that I want to have in my life. What about you? What is your mantra of the year?

[B]

I have a lot, as I said, but one of the ones that has been on my bulletin board for a very long time throughout this year is at the very top of the board. I tried to put my most important reminders at the very top. And that is shame is not the way. And I think I've realized that a lot of my worst tendencies or feelings are all based in shame. Like when I feel bad about book stuff or I feel bad about a review or about sales or something. The feeling isn't actually like disappointment necessarily or like sadness. It's like always shame. Just this feeling of wanting to shrink into the ground and no one look at me and how dare I try something and put myself out there? And what I've learned is that sometimes I think that this feeling, feeling is going to help me be better. Like I'm. If I feel bad enough, then I'm going to work harder. And actually that's not. It's not productive. Like, the more I kind of sit in the shame, I actually do worse. I create less. I am less interesting. So I have tried to remember that whenever I'm like, in a feeling that I recognize as shame, that it's. It's not going to help me move forward. It's not going to help me be a better writer or better friend or a better person. And that's really been helpful to me.

[A]

I recognize this a lot in myself. Have you come up with the inverse.

[B]

Blank is the way I try when I am feeling this to either create something or do something. Or give someone else something I would want. So sometimes, like with those letters that I have written to people, I do it in these moments because I'm thinking like this will reset my brain to remember that, like, there are nice people out there, there are nice gestures, there are, there is kindness in the world. So I try to do something nice like that, or I try to make something or dream about something or. Honestly, I think we've both talked about this. Just going on a walk cures most shame in some way or another. I think in a weird way gets you out of it. I love that. Okay, finally, in the life category, what is the best hard lesson you've learned this year?

[A]

I don't know that I fully learned it, but I think I'm on the road to learning it. I'm like, I don't think it's fully in there yet, but I'm really trying to mentally write the pathway for it. You can't make everyone like you because, God, do I want everyone to like me. I do. I want everyone to like me. And the reality that I've chosen to have this semi public life makes that an even steeper hill than if I, you know, even in my day to day life, I'm sure not everyone likes me, but. Yeah, I don't know that I've talked about this that much here and I don't know how deep I feel comfortable going, but I stumbled into a Reddit hole earlier this fall and seeing the scope and frequency of people listening to this podcast, going on Reddit and, and talking about taking a bad faith read on anything I say was very jarring. And my first instinct was I wanna stop doing the podcast. I wanna shut down and I want to not give anyone any ammo to be able to go talk about me on the Internet. This hurt me so badly. What am I doing this for? And what sucks about that is that I love doing the podcast, I love talking to you, I love the community we've built. It's an extroverted part of my career. And I think the lesson that I need to take from this is not diminish myself and give people less fodder to dislike about me and just to fucking get over it. And so as I said, I'm not fully there yet, but the lesson that I want to take from this year is that the answer isn't changing myself because then everyone will like me or not talking about certain things because people will find them unlikable. But the answer is just I cannot make everyone like me. And that is Reality?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as you know, I have been there, and I think that instinct is so real. And I think what's funny is that when I experienced it, I was like, well, I'll just change all these things that they hate, and then they will like me because I will have changed all the things, or I will explain myself better or I will present myself in a different way that's, like, more. They'll understand that, like, my intentions are good and I am a good person and I do work hard or whatever. But you actually can't do that even.

[A]

There's nothing you can do. I feel myself doing it. I mean, the income thing and talking about that, which is something I feel really passionate about, is talking. You know, I don't want to give people dollars and cents because I just don't think that's going to be productive. But talking openly about finances and like, oh, my God, the issues that people have on, the vague stuff I have said, and I'm already, like, caveating that, and I'm like, I know I have privilege, blah, blah, blah. And it's like I feel myself doing it, this episode, and it has colored everything I am doing. I really don't want that. I want to be able to say my piece and walk away. And if you like it, great. And if you don't, that's fine. I think Kate Kennedy has talked about this in past iterations a lot about, like, attract and repel of, like, get rid of the people who don't like you and, like, find the people who you are for. And I think what I'm just challenged by is it seems like there are people who don't like me who are making a hobby out of it, and I'm like, oh, I hate that.

[B]

Yeah, it's painful. And I mean, I haven't been on there and I. You've told me some of this stuff, but I haven't read it. But, like, just a word on the income stuff. Like, you are a single woman living in the most expensive city in the world, like, thriving financially and working for yourself. Like, anyone who is shitting on that, like, is misguided. I think that's inspiring to me, like, and it should be inspiring to people, in my opinion. I don't know. I don't know if you feel that way, but I think you should be really proud of yourself.

[A]

I don't know how I feel generally. I feel a little lost in the sauce right now, but I do feel like I want the takeaway to be I can't make Everyone like me, and I'm trying as hard as I can to, like, ingrain that.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's all you can do.

[A]

What is your hardest lesson that you've learned this year?

[B]

Well, similarly, I think I'm still constantly learning this, and I will probably be learning this for my entire life. And it's actually a lot about what Little one is about. But I think I have always had this feeling like I am not worthy of existing unless I am improving myself. Like, unless I am becoming thinner, unless I am looking hotter, unless I am making more money, then I'm not good enough. And because I am less than I have to be, constantly working to improve myself, quote, unquote, you know, improve as in quotation marks here. And I just really have had to teach myself again and again, especially this year. Like, it's okay to just be, and it's okay to change, too. Of course it is. And I do that all the time as. As well. But I don't have to be constantly seeking, like, betterment to be valuable. And, yeah, I don't know. That's really hard for me to accept because I'm like. I can't just. I feel like if I am just existing, I'm failing, you know, if I'm just, like, showing up as I am, I'm failing if I'm not signaling to the world that I am, I don't know, trying to look better than I'm failing. And, yeah, that's a really hard thing to unlearn.

[A]

That's incredibly hardy. I mean, you phrase this as if it's like a personal issue, but, like, this is the entire messaging of capitalism. Like, yeah, this is the constant drumbeat.

[B]

So, I mean, and I think just that's how women are taught to feel. It's like, exactly. It's like what we are sold. It's like, do this, then do this, and then there will be something else for you to do, you know, and something else to buy and a new outfit and whatever. And of course, I buy all the new outfits, too, but it's hard. I've had to really recognize the spirals that I go on, because it's never just like, I'll do this one thing that will make me look better to the world. It's like, I'll do that, and then I'll do five other things in order to make that thing even better. You know, it's like, it's cyclical. It's endless. And, yeah, it's in progress. In progress.

[A]

I mean, that. That makes sense. It's a. It's like a constant daily.

[B]

It is. It is for all of us.

[A]

Okay. This has gotten very, very deep, which is fun, which is fun, which is good. That's an Olivia episode for you, for sure. But.

[B]

But I balanced it out. The next section is all fun.

[A]

I was gonna say, let's get to some fun.

[B]

I wanted to know who is the best new artist you have discovered this year? So that could be an author, a filmmaker, a dancer.

[A]

I struggled with some of the previous category for this one. I was like, how many is it appropriate that I can put? Like, how many can I get away with? I put five. I was like, that feels okay. First of all, I debated not talking about this because I am constantly trying to get one of her prints and I always miss them. So I was like, I don't need more competition. But I am so obsessed with this artist named Frances Featherstone. She is a British artist. She's an oil painter, and she's doing this series called from the Perspective of the Angels, which sounds very like religious and Christian, but it's basically these portraits from above. And they are usually of women in bed and sometimes women in bed reading books. And I think these paintings that she does are so lovely. And so, I mean, they're aesthetically pleasing, but I'm also like, oh, this could be me in bed reading. There's something that I really like, relate to about them. And they're oil paintings. The paintings are, you know, probably like five or $10,000. But she does prints of them limited edition, sometimes through her email, and she's in the UK and hours wise, I always end up missing out.

[B]

You know, I don't know this name, but I think I have seen these paintings. They sound really familiar to me.

[A]

I'm obsessed. Another person I'm obsessed with is this woman who I follow on Instagram named Anna Kwan. Her Instagram handle is Xoxo Anna Kwan. And she used to live in New York and now she moved to Paris and she goes in public to restaurants, and she live sketches and paints what she's eating. And, you know, she goes to both places that have personal significance to her, but then also, you know, iconic restaurants and paints their, you know, most known dishes. And I just think this is so cool to see what she comes up with on the spot with it in front of her. I love seeing her posts. I love seeing she does videos sometimes of her doing it live. It's so cool. Another artist that I have been really obsessed with recently is a woman named Sarah Martinez. And she is somebody I just started following on Instagram. And she makes these women. She does these like, very quick sketches of women. And I love them. I think they're so cool. And I especially love the videos of watching her get to do it. Obsessed. I also really love her color palettes. She does these kind of palette prints of different swatches of color, and I'm very drawn to them. Okay, my fourth one, I can already tell I've gone overboard, but I can't stop gushing about all of these people that I'm obsessed with that I've discovered. My fourth one is the author, Barbara Borland, who wrote the Force of Such Beauty, who I feel personally obligated to counteract the fact that I think this book has been so severely underhyped. You read it first. It had been sitting in my pile. I pulled it out because of your recommendation and it blew me away. This is the book about the dark side of being a princess, which sounds fluffy, but is anything but. And my last one, I saw this ballet sometime in the spring and it was a Balanchine ballet. So Balanchine was the co founder of the New York City Ballet and he was the artistic director starting in the late 40s and going through, I think, the 70s. And he very traditional composer like you usually see George Balanchine's the Nutcracker. And I would usually say, like, maybe a little too stuffy for me. I saw this batshit crazy ballet from him called Variations on a Door and a sigh, which I know is also an obsession and I cannot stop thinking about it. It was so weird and so cool. It was just one of the most interesting things I've ever seen performed and visually arresting. It really made me think of him differently. The duality of his more traditional stuff versus this weird stuff. And it kind of blew my brain open.

[B]

What a good mix of things.

[A]

I will stop talking now, but oh my gosh, this was such a fun. Thank you for this prompt and giving me a reason to think about who are artists that I've discovered this year that I admire. Tell me yours.

[B]

Okay, so two people that I've discovered that we've both talked about on here, so I'll try to be quick. But Allegra Goodman, I read her book Isola for the first time this year and I loved it, as we all know. But then I also read another book by her this year called Sam could not possibly be more different than Isola. I mean, in every single possible way. Artistically, it is so different and yet I absolutely adored it. Too. And that the fact that you can write two such drastically different books, have them be just as resonant and meaningful to the reader. Me, like, I'm fascinated by. And I'm obsessed with her now, and I want to know everything. And she has like a thousand books, so I really have to read it.

[A]

She's a new book coming out next year, right?

[B]

Yes, she's prolific. I'm like, what do you sleep? Like is. She just had Isla come out last year, and in February, I believe she has a new one. And then also I discovered Joshua Burnside this year, who is this musician that I have been talking about lately from Northern Ireland. And I just love him so much. And I'm more into Irish folk music than ever, which random yet delightful.

[A]

This is the right reminder, the right day for me. Because after you talked about it last time, I wanted to listen. And I think I was just too much in a tizzy with draft mode. And today I am not. And I'm gonna go listen to this. I'm gonna go listen to him right after we finish here.

[B]

Well, I hope you enjoy. Next up, very important category, which is best sandwich of the year. I'm so glad you put this Best meal. And then I was like, no, we're getting more sandwich.

[A]

I'm so glad you put this. And frankly, I wish I had better notes because I feel like I am just snubbing someone right now. My answer is not interesting. It's a little bit of a basic bitch answer. But I don't think I could have a better best sandwich if I had a hillstone French dip this year, which I did. I don't even care about a French dip. Why is it so good?

[B]

I've never been into a French dip in my life. That makes it more intriguing to me then.

[A]

Oh, so good. I would say my runner up, also a wild chain restaurant answer, is rediscovering the potbelly tuna sandwich, mostly through LaGuardia Airport. For better or for worse, as the listeners know.

[B]

I was literally just thinking about this, like a couple days ago. I don't know, probably cause I was making this outline. But I was thinking about your incident with the tuna.

[A]

I wouldn't do anything differently. I love that sandwich so much.

[B]

Love that for you.

[A]

Now in my head I'm like, am I gonna listen to Joshua Burnside? And like, I would have to go to Union Square to get one, which seems insane. Like, get on the subway to get a tuna sandwich. But I'm like, well, I'm in post deadline mode. I Can do whatever I want.

[B]

It's quite a combination. But it could work. We'll see.

[A]

I mean, like, is that my reward for getting a flu shot? I don't know, Olivia.

[B]

Oh, I like that idea.

[A]

You tell me about your best sandwich of the year, but really paint the picture for me.

[B]

Okay. Well, there is this restaurant in a town near where I live called Fork and Whisk. And it is open, like, two days a week. It's never open. It's closed often for vacation.

[A]

So.

[B]

So a lot of times it's elusive, it's confusing. I thought it was just closed forever for a while, but we went finally last weekend. And it's just this very cheery, sunny, like, Main street, small town cafe with very fresh ingredients. No wifi. You're not allowed to be on your phone. You're not allowed to be on a laptop. It's very Luke Steiner in that way. And they have this chicken salad sandwich on warm focaccia bread. And I love a chicken salad sandwich. This is one thing about me I don't know if I've talked about enough on here, but I love it and it's perfect.

[A]

What kind of chicken salad? Because I feel like chicken salad is a big spectrum, but of what you can get.

[B]

And also of preference, there's mayonnaise, cranberries, celery. Kind of a classic, traditional American chicken salad. But what's the chicken?

[A]

Is the chicken, like, shredded, or is the chicken like shredded, cubed? Shredded. Shredded. Okay, shredded.

[B]

And I get it with lettuce and tomato, and it's just so good. And it comes with this little chickpea salad on the side, and it just feels so comforting and hearty, but, like, fresh. And I think about it every weekend now, and I'm like, well, we've got to get there on the one day it's open. I think it's technically open three days maybe. But I really love it. And also, this is unrelated, but I went there over the weekend and Jake got the pancakes, and they were spectacular. I mean, out of this world, so can't recommend enough.

[A]

What a repertoire. What town is it?

[B]

It's in Chatham.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

And it's across the street from a very cute independent bookstore. So enjoy.

[A]

What was your best song of the year?

[B]

This is not exactly a unique choice, but I really am a firm believer that Baby Steps by Olivia Dean. Fellow Pisces birthday, March 14th. Like me just throwing it out there, I just want to be friends with Olivia Dean in any way possible, and this is my way. But the song Baby Steps, I think, is a perfect song. I think in 50 to 100 years, there will be some teenager who discovers this song and agrees with me. I think it is timeless. I think it is flawless. It has, like, an emotional resonance, but it's also just catchy. It's fun. I love it. It's. I think it's, like, not as popular as some of her other songs, but it is.

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna say, I don't think I know this song off the top of my head.

[B]

It was, like, trending audio for a second there because it's all about, like, when you leave a relationship or a phase of your life and you're, like, kind of having to, like, hold your own hand and be your own best friend and. Oh, it's just beautiful. And also just really catchy. No notes. What's your best song of the year?

[A]

Well, I was thinking about this, and I was having a hard time coming up with it. And I think the song that I have most consistently listened to to this year is Moves by Suki Waterhouse, which is not a new song, but I went to a Suki Waterhouse concert in December of last year, and I feel like it really ignited the fandom in me. I went from very casual to being like, oh, no. Like, I'm very into her as a musical artist, and I feel like this song has ended up on every playlist I've made this year.

[B]

This is a good song. This is a solid song. I think it's a good choice.

[A]

It was such a good concert.

[B]

What about best movie or show of the year? A large category.

[A]

I would have to say the Summer I Turned Pretty, season three, because I have never experienced so much anticipation between episodes. Like, it was not just a show. It was a cultural experience. I was talking about it with people between episodes. I was theorizing. I was consuming content on Instagram. Like, this captivated me this summer. So I feel like, would I give it my highest critical rating of the year? No. But, like, I enjoyed every second of the summer I turned pretty Mania.

[B]

Best experience.

[A]

Yeah, Best experience, hands down.

[B]

Overall.

[A]

What about you?

[B]

Can't believe I missed it.

[A]

Well, you could still experience it. You can't experience the cultural fervor.

[B]

I think you need it. Maybe I could go in without it, but it just feels like the ship has sailed. But it's always there for me should I choose to go back. For me, I. This is recency bias, because I just watched this twice in the period of a week. I watch her twice. Or like, 11 3/4 times. And that is the movie Train Dreams, which is on Netflix right now. This is such an absolutely beautiful movie. Jake said it's one of his top 10 movies he's ever watched, which I was like, wow, tell me everything. Few of the year. This is based on a short story. I forget the author, but it's all about this man living in the late 1800s, early 1900s, who is a logger. And it's the film that kind of spans his entire life, from his youth to his 80s, I guess. And it's very, very sad. So I will warn everyone, but it's about, I believe he lives in Idaho, and it's about his marriage and his relationship and this cabin that they built together. And it's really just gorgeous nature scenery. I mean, the most beautiful nature shots I've ever seen. The sound is gorgeous, the score is gorgeous. And it's just about like, the highs and lows of life and the very, very small moments of life that are beautiful and painful and how even with, like, great loss and tragedy, you can still have a really meaningful existence. And it really spoke to me. And there's a last scene that's just so perfect. Yeah, it's very sad. So you have been warned. But it's beautiful.

[A]

I mean, the endorsement of watching it twice in a week is huge.

[B]

It's so nice just to look at it. It's so nice just to look at it. It's Felicity Jones and Joel Edgerton. But gosh, the nature, like the trees and the. It's just. It's something special for sure.

[A]

Well, why don't we take another ad break and then we will get in to some work bests and some miscellaneous bests.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

And Quince also has gifting covered beyond clothing. I am a big fan of their candles and I have also been wearing their Amber Noir perfume nonstop this fall. All of their fragrances look incredible actually, and they have a Discovery set which has a ton of mini versions of those fragrances for just $20, which I think is a great stocking stuffer idea. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quints. Go to Quince.com BoP for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N C E.com BoP to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com BoP. Well, let's talk about some work stuff, which we kind of have already touched on, but let's talk more. Yes, let's talk more. Okay, so what is your best author writing win of the year?

[A]

I don't even think this is recency bias, but hands down, turning in my second book and thinking back to the beginning of the year, I had just turned in the biggest edit I've ever done. This huge edit I did on this book. It probably changed by 50% during that edit. And I really came into the year saying, I don't know if somebody's gonna be like, good effort, just stop, or if I have made a coherent book out of this. And I really was uncertain at the beginning of the year if this was going to get shelved. And so turning an ID and being proud of it feels like a huge accomplishment.

[B]

It is. It's massive.

[A]

What about you? What is your biggest writer or work high?

[B]

Well, with my last book, I had sort of like a phrase or goal in mind when I was kind of leading up to the publication. So I did the same with this one. And my word for this book to publication was confidence, which is I both am and am not a confident person. I don't really know how to describe that exactly, but I really just wanted to, like lean into the fact that this is what I want and this is what I'm pursuing. And if that is the case, then I should be confident, I should own it and I should just work on, like settling into, like I said, owning that I want to be an author for as long as I can do it. And I think that's really scary because I think with such a bad influence I was doing more stuff. And so I was able to be like, well, I'm also this, this, and this. And I'm also doing this, this and this, which I had to financially But I think it made me less confident, I guess, in a way. And so with this book, I was like, I just want to own that this is what I want. It's okay if people out there don't like it and don't think I deserve it. And that's. I think the thing that tripped me up in the past was, like, this feeling of, like, this is what I want more than anything in the world, but the world might tell me no. And how embarrassing is that? I guess. And I'm not perfect at this, but I will say that, like, I am much more confident this time around. Like, I can notice it. And, like, when I have other people reading the book, I'm much more relaxed about it. Like, my family reading the book, my friends. Like, I don't overanalyze people's reactions as much. I don't read between the lines as much. I was much quicker to stop looking at reviews. I've been very dedicated about that. And I think all of that requires a level of confidence that is not natural to me, but it is definitely something that I have been practicing.

[A]

It's so hard. I mean, I feel like there is a whole cottage industry of the Internet telling you how tenuous writing as a career is. So having confidence and owning it is huge. And I also think, speaking for myself, not even in the publication cycle yet, having just turned this book in, but I think also there's some comfort in knowing what to expect, because I feel like with my first book, I had no frame of reference with what was normal. It was cobbled together from, you know, wild, unlikely success stories that were shared broadly and people complaining on the Internet. And I didn't really have a baseline of what was. I don't think there is a normal. But, you know, so everything was a panic. And so, yeah, I'm really happy for you that you feel confident and that you're owning this. And it also makes me excited for my own book, too, that this is a. This is the place that you find yourself in two months from publication, which I think is a heady anxiety time, if my own experience was anything to go on last time.

[B]

Yeah, it is. And I still fail at this. But I think it helps to remind myself that, like, being confident actually only helps the book's publication and me. Well, what about best source of inspiration of the year for you?

[A]

This is fun to reflect back on, because I think I might have forgotten this if you hadn't put this prompt in here. But I think midway through the year, I did the bare minimum Artist's Way Following Julia Cameron's book the Artist's Way with the Internet People Podcast. And this is a book that I've had for probably four years. I've started it at least twice before this and it has all these exercises, it has all this stuff that you're supposed to do. And I found it really overwhelming and I never saw stuck to it. And having both the permission from this podcast of just read the book and then listening to the episodes that they did and you'll get something out of it. Maybe you're not going to get everything, but doing something is better than doing nothing was such a permission slip I needed. And then also just hearing the conversations that it sparked. I know many people do the Artist's Way in groups, in a group setting, so that you have people to discuss it with, but hearing other people's takeaways from certain things was so powerful for me. And this was really. I didn't jive with all of it. It's very God heavy. But there were a lot of takeaways I had from this process in this book that I think were really helpful. And this informed some of the index cards I have on my bulletin board of quotes about perfectionism and motivation. And yeah, I'm so glad I did this and I'm so glad you gave me this chance to reflect on it.

[B]

Oh, of course. I really like the idea that it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[A]

Yeah, I tend to be somewhat of a black and white thinker sometimes, so having somebody sign my permission slip and say you can just read the book and see what you get from it and that's enough was powerful. What about you?

[B]

You know, I've had this bulletin board up in my office this whole year and it's very large. And so I've just been adding to it slowly. It's still not completely full, but I think it's very cool now, a year later to see the little note cards that I stuck up with like two word ideas for book three that are now actually fully realized in some way. And it's a nice visual representation of what my brain sometimes feels like, but also my brain sometimes forgets the nice things. And so, like, I have a really nice email from my editor that I printed out that I like want to always remember and that's on there. And oh, what a great idea. Songs and notes from Jake and stuff. So it's just been really, really the best investment ever that I've made at Office Depot.

[A]

I love this. You inspired me to get One. And I love having my bulletin board. I am loath to take mine down because I made such a mess of the wall behind it, but I would like a bigger one because I. I would love to be able to hang more stuff.

[B]

Yes, just bigger is better. I hesitated and I'm so glad I went with the giant size.

[A]

What's the best place that you've written this year?

[B]

This is my first year. I've really been in my office and so I. I love it so much. Such an amazing gift to have a space that is just mine. I think I didn't realize, like, how much I needed to, like, go somewhere, even if it's just two steps out my back door. It's so nice just to have that little separation and just to fill it with all of my weird things. Is. Is so lovely. And you know, I have a bird bath and I really love, like, at 10:30am when I'm facing a certain way at my desk. 10:30am to 11:15am is the busy hour for the BIR. And so they're always in the bird bath or like, I put a feeder out now, and I love just looking at them and lighting my candles and it really is just like a literal dream come true. So I'm happy to be in here.

[A]

You know, I felt pressure with this question to come up with an interesting answer, and so I. I put in the outline. I wrote a newsletter on the train from Paris to Bordeaux, but honestly, the answer to this is at my house, in my office, at my dining room table is always where I'm most productive. And I. I feel like sometimes people fetishize writing at coffee shops or writing when you're traveling. And like, that doesn't work for me. I like to write at home in silence. It's very boring, but that's what works.

[B]

Yeah. Very rarely have I written like, on a plane or on a train. And when it works, it's like a really great feeling, but it rarely works.

[A]

I. I totally agree.

[B]

But yeah, I think just being in your cozy place is like, the best.

[A]

Yes. And the ritual of it, of I. I find it really hard to get my brain to turn into work mode in unfamiliar places versus, you know, I'm like, I'm going into my office, I'm lighting my candle, I'm sitting at my desk. It is time to work.

[B]

Totally agree. What about your favorite or the best podcast episode of the year?

[A]

Hands down. I only needed one second to think about this one. Our interview with E. Jean Carroll was so inspiring, and in some ways Surprising. I think I expected her to have a lot more negative sentiment or takeaway from the process of the trial and hearing how fired up she was and how. How much fight she had in her after. It was really heartening.

[B]

I totally agree. Yeah, this was really special and I will probably never forget it. It was amazing.

[A]

Okay, let's go to miscellaneous.

[B]

What is your best new skill or hobby of the year?

[A]

Do you want to say it.

[B]

For you?

[A]

Well, I just. I feel like I can't shut up about it. I'm the teenager with a crush and my crush is watercolor. I am obsessed with watercolor and I bought a watercolor set on such a whim over fourth of July weekend and it was the best thing I did this year.

[B]

I'm so glad for you. It's such a. Such a nice hobby. Like we can be with you forever.

[A]

It is. And especially I feel like when I first was starting, I was, you know, following exercises or practicing. But the idea of making cards for people and so both making something and then being able to give it to someone that I love and share it has added a dimension to this hobby.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

What about you? What is your best new skill or hobby?

[B]

Well, I don't think it's a skill, but I have gotten very into movies this year and I've always loved movies, but I have gotten very into going to movie theaters this year, going to new movie theaters. I listen to a lot of podcasts or a couple podcasts that talk about movies critically. I love that. I love thinking about movies. Jake and I are always ranking our favorite movies of the year. I don't know, I've just gotten very into it in a way that I haven't been before. And it's really enjoyable.

[A]

I don't know what it is, but I've never been a movie person and I always feel slightly jealous of people who are very up on movies and have thoughts on, you know, kind of like the Oscar contenders or things like that. It's something that I would like to. I would like to do more of next year because sometimes I am totally. That meme of a two hour movie. No, like eight consecutive episodes of tv.

[B]

Sure, Yeah. I understand that. I think with movies you kind of have to have a theater that you love or feel dedicated to or feel comfortable at because that makes a huge difference and it's close enough to you that you can just pop in on a Wednesday or whatever.

[A]

Oh, so you feel like an event. More of your movie watching is happening. Not at home.

[B]

I think one informs the other. But yes, I like the event of going to the movies. I like listening to the, like a critical review of the movie afterwards on the way home or before and. Yeah. Or like watching the movie that inspired it at home afterwards, that kind of thing. But I think the seed of it was like finding a movie theater that we really loved and multiple movie theaters now in the area. So that helps. What about your best first of the year? Like something you. You did that you have never done before.

[A]

Okay. So I went on a trip this year in September for my friend Natalie's 40th birthday. And I was the outsider. I was like the new friend. I was the kind of the least tied into this group, even if I'd met most of the people before. And I was really proud of myself for going and being flexible and having less control and really enjoying myself.

[B]

Good. That is kind of an intimidating thing.

[A]

Yeah. What about you? What was your best first?

[B]

I have two. I'll try to be quick. The first one is I taught that writing workshop to high schoolers early spring and I kind of forgot about it, but I had written a substack post about it and someone liked it and I was like, oh. And so I read it really quickly and I remembered the experience and how much it gave to me and it was very scary for me. And I had so quickly forgotten that I was like shaking the first class because I was so nervous. And then by the end of it I was more comfortable. So definitely that. And it made me like be curious about teaching in the future and then also hosting that retreat myself and planning it all myself. Like that was many years in the making in terms of like in my brain. And it happened and everything went fine. So I, yeah, I'm really proud of both of those things.

[A]

I had totally forgotten about your teaching excursion, like lot you have done this year. Truly. Like, I feel like I need a better record keeping system maybe on the bulletin board to keep track of milestone moments in a year. Because I've certainly forgotten yours, but I've also forgotten mine. What's your best purchase this year?

[B]

This is the first thing that came to mind and since specifically it came to mind because every time I go into a TJ Maxx, I now look for this because I bought this on a whim in the TJ Maxx skincare aisle. And it is the Shiseido Illuminating Micro Spot Serum. And I wanted like a lightweight moisturizer that's good for dark spots and stuff that felt good on my skin. And I don't know why I bought this but usually it's like a hundred plus dollars and at TJ Maxx it was like 30, maybe five months ago and I used the entire thing like to the very last drop which is always a really good feeling with skincare. And so I think it's my best purchase one because I love using something in its entirety. I find it really satisfying, especially with beauty products. It made my skin feel amazing and I think it brightened up some of the dark spots I have especially because I have a really dark spot from when I had the skin biopsy. And yeah, I really love it and I got a great deal on it. So now every time I go into a TJ Maxx I like scour the shelves for this. But is it a regular find for Christmas?

[A]

Like is it regularly at TJ Maxx or it was just like a one off treasure?

[B]

I don't know. I mean they regularly have Shiseido products. Shishido. Apologies if I am mispronouncing that my beauty editor days are long behind me. But I haven't been able to find this again which I almost bought. I should have bought two of them anyway. I just, I really loved it and I don't like wearing a heavy moisturizer in the mornings and so it perfect to put on before sunscreen, hydrating glowy. My best Maxines to find and the.

[A]

Elusive thrill of a deal.

[B]

I know I'm sure there are other purchases I've made that are more substantial. But anyway, what about you?

[A]

Would you accept my watercolor kit? Yes, it's just all I want to talk about. But I again I brought something else because I don't want to be that girl who can only talk about watercolor. Although you know what? Maybe I do want to be my weighted eye mask and not because of the weight. I do think the weighted is relaxing. I think if I slept on my back the weighted would be a real factor. But the thing that's great about my weighted eye mask is that the weight makes it stay in place. Because previously I would start with the eye mask on my eyes. And an eye mask, not like skincare, like for sleeping. And then I would inevitably wake up at seven in the morning with it on my forehead so it wouldn't stay down or in place. And this one stays which is game changing.

[B]

That sounds very relaxing too. Just soothing.

[A]

It's not as soothing as I would have thought because I sleep on my side so the weight isn't on my eyes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I see. Still great.

[A]

Yeah, great. Fine. Best of the year.

[B]

What about your best outfit of the year? Okay.

[A]

I thought of two that came to mind. The first was this teal and white dress that I bought for vacation. I find such joy in vacation clothes even though I usually don't wear them in my day to day life. And I bought just like the brightest teal dress and I felt like a million bucks in that dress. Oh my God, I felt so good.

[B]

I love a good vacation dress.

[A]

Yeah, right color. And then my other favorite outfit was this brown suede miniskirt that I got from Saison and I worn it with both a black T shirt sweater and a black long sleeve sweater and I wore it with some leopard flats and I just felt very academia chic in it.

[B]

I like that combo. I'm into brown suede right now. I just, I like it every form I see it in.

[A]

What about you? What is your best outfit of the year?

[B]

I have this all red outfit that I've worn a few times and it's a red Sam sweater, these red sort of barrel e pants, red Converse. And I love it because I think I've gotten a little bit better this year at like shopping my closet, coming up with outfits. Whereas in the past I think that most of my outfits were inspired by having a new item. And so then I'd be like, oh, I have to wear this new thing I got. Whereas this outfit, I just happened to have all of the items, they were all the same shade of red. I really like the idea of color blocking. It made me feel happy. I put like a trench over the top so it kind of broke up all the red. And I really like wearing red in general and it was a really happy outfit that I enjoyed a lot.

[A]

I can picture this outfit on you. I love this.

[B]

Thank you. Well, let's take one more ad break and then we will get into some end matter. This episode is sponsored by Uncommon Goods, which is the type of website that makes holiday gift shopping as fun for you as it is for the people that receive the gifts. Because the items on Uncommon Goods are so unique that browsing for the perfect item really does feel like a delightful and surprising process. Instead of just kind of boring and tiresome and seeing the same stuff over and over again. Uncommon Goods looks for products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the U.S. many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses, so every gift feels special and thoughtfully chosen. My current obsession on Uncommon Goods is if you just search bookish gifts on the website and you look through the options, you will find so many unique bookish items. There is a really cute book hair clip that I saw. There are lots of different like reading challenges and journals and just a ton of other items for the bookish people in your life.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Yes. Okay, so I saw this substack note from somebody named Margaret who writes a newsletter called Bad Art Every Day and I'm just gonna read it to you. So she says avoidance Advent AKA my now annual tradition where I make an advent calendar with a fun mocktail, a timer and 25 tasks I've been avoiding for two to 10 months to not bring them into the new year. I think this is genius. I don't think I'm going to go the whole nine yards with the mocktail and doing this, although that would be very fun. I feel like that feels stressful to me of the planning of it. But I think I am going to come up with a list today of however many. Doesn't have to be 25 of tasks that I have been avoiding, the first one being getting my flu shot today, and put them on my calendar for the rest of this month while I am having my generally slower decompressing post deadline month.

[B]

Oh my gosh. I kind of want to do this also. This could be a whole episode just talking about what we would put on the calendar, the things that we're putting off. Oh my God. Oh my gosh.

[A]

I mean I have so many medical ones of, you know, making doctor's appointments and I need to price shop my health insurance for next year. But there's like returns I need to make. There's like I need to update the welcome email for my newsletter. Like there's so much stuff. I haven't actually sat down to make the list, but I feel like I could very easily come up with a solid handful of these.

[B]

I kind of want to do this too. I might do this. It's such a good idea.

[A]

It's such a good idea. And putting a fun name on it makes doing these tasks feel in service of something rather than this annoying thing that's been sitting on my to do list.

[B]

Yeah. And imagine just going into, like, Christmas feeling like you did all just. Oh, it's like euphoric. I just.

[A]

I know. We'll have to check back on this. Maybe in our. Yeah, maybe in our first Three Things episode of next year it can be.

[B]

Yes, a check in.

[A]

Okay. What about you? What are you obsessed with?

[B]

I'm obsessed with Pluribus on Apple tv, which is quickly becoming my favorite TV show. It's by the creator of Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, which are two shows that I never got into, which I feel like everyone has. But this show combines everything I love, which is it is dark, funny, emotional, dystopian, suspenseful. We could go on. But it is about this virus that attacks the world where everyone becomes part of a giant hive mind, except for a very small group of people. And one of those people is this very grumpy author who ends up losing her partner. And I don't even know what the happening. The thing where's the hive mind takes over. And so she has to deal with being the only person who thinks independently that she's aware of. Have you been watching this?

[A]

Yes. So I share this obsession. I saw you mention it in the BFF group. I initially did not think that it was going to be for me. Like, the pitch did not appeal to me. I did watch Breaking Bad, but I didn't feel compelled to follow Vince Gilligan's filmography. And somebody in the BFF group, Lizzie J. Said it's like Severance X the Good Place. And that was all I needed to hear. And I started it that night and turns out it is for me.

[B]

Yes, the cliffhanger on the most recent episode. I was all over. I don't know if you watched all of them.

[A]

Okay, spoiler warning. Just fast forward twice. What do you think is under the sheet?

[B]

So, I mean, of course my first thought is, like, the bodies and that they're grinding them down into the dust, but that seems too predictable almost. But maybe we're overthinking it. I was on the Reddit page last night going through all the theories and wow, it's wild there.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

What do you think? Do you think the same.

[A]

I thought bodies.

[B]

Yeah, it got me. I was like, oh, gosh, I can't believe we have to wait for the next one, but soon. Well, what about reading?

[A]

I had a finishing week. I was finishing my draft. Didn't have a lot of time for reading, but I did finish Between Two Kings by Lindsey Straub, my Basilisk porn novel. It was really good. I cannot believe. So she is doing a third book, but she's doing a prequel. But the series is not moving forward in time at all. And I wonder if she'll go back on that because I feel like there's a lot of fodder that she could play with. So enjoyed it, but could want more if offered to me.

[B]

Well, we'll keep an eye on her.

[A]

And then I finished the audiobook that I was listening to, Lucas Gage's memoir called I Wrote this for Attention, and I thought it was really interesting. And also, you know, you just know I love a celebrity memoir narrated by the author. I thought this was really compelling. I think you should know going into it that it is much less about his life as an actor and his Hollywood life than it is his youth, which I did know going in. And I think as long as you go in with that expectation, he has, like, a very wild, kind of troubled youth, and he's very candid about it, and he has some wild stories.

[B]

Sounds good.

[A]

It was really good. It was. Who knows how honest it is. He cops to being, like, a frequent liar. But it really felt like I compared it to Jessica Simpson's memoir last time I talked about it. Of, like, kind of putting all your cards on the table and just being like, here's my shit, which is fascinating. What about you? What did you read this week?

[B]

I read Rec by Kathryn Newman, which is her follow up to Sandwich. It's the same characters, the same family. The main character, Rocky, is dealing with, like, a chronic kind of mystery illness in it, but it's really just about their family unit. And it is so cozy and the relationships in the book are so beautiful. And I really, really loved it. It's perfect to read during this time of year. Like, it's just. She paints a portrait of a family that, like, you just want to be part of so badly. Like, you want that feeling so much. And also has inspired me to get a couch in the kitchen when we redo it, because there's this recurring theme that there's a couch in the kitchen, which I think she has in her actual home. But I just loved it. Also gorgeous food writing. I got, like, a early copy or special edition copy because I bought it the first week it came out in a store, but it has a bunch of recipes in the beginning which are featured in the book, which I want to make some of them. There's like a maple muffin thing that sounds good but it's just so, so so cozy.

[A]

I still haven't read Sandwich and so I've been meaning to take on this double feature and my TBR is overflowing but this is definitely on my list.

[B]

They're both cozy in their own ways, but Rec is very fall Thanksgiving forward.

[A]

Well, we do not have a December book club. We're doing a short month. We're taking the last two Wednesdays in December off as a little break. So no book club pick this month. We will announce January's on Instagram when we have it. That's on me. I'm gonna go make a tuna sandwich. I think I'm gonna try to make a potbelly tuna sandwich. So just so you want, just so you know what I'm up to after this.

[B]

I feel like now I wanna make a tuna sandwich. So who knows.

[A]

Also, we have our Best Book of the Year episode coming up. So if you wanna share a voicemail about your number one book that you read this year, you can record a voice note and send it to [e-mail] or you can call and leave us a voicemail at 405-3157.

[B]

If you want to talk to us about any of this, you can join us in the Bat on Paper podcast on the Bat on Paper Instagram or in the Bout on Paper BFF Group formerly known as Geneva. The link to that is in the show notes. I am on Instagram and substack liviamentor. I would be so grateful if you pre ordered my book Little One which is out in February. You can also preorder a signed copy if you are shopping for the holidays or just really want to make my life happier. I appreciate you.

[A]

I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is at beccafreeman.substack.com Bye.