Chatting About Comparison & Competition

Summary

Bad On Paper: Chatting About Comparison & Competition Release Date: August 6, 2025

In this engaging episode of Bad On Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve deep into the intricate dynamics of comparison, competition, and jealousy. Through personal anecdotes and thoughtful discussions, they unpack how these emotions influence their professional and personal lives, particularly within the realms of writing and podcasting.

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1. Sharing Personal Highs

Becca's Culinary Triumph Becca opens the conversation by celebrating her recent achievement as a two-time Lobster Roll Off champion. She shares her excitement and gratitude, emphasizing the competitive spirit of this event:

“...the roles across the board were much better this year than they have been in any previous year... I'm also doubly honored to win against such a competitive field.” ([00:55])

She details her winning lobster roll, highlighting the unique combination of Calabrian chili garlic butter, honey, basil, and lemon zest, which set her creation apart in a closely contested competition.

Olivia's Home Projects Olivia contrasts Becca's culinary success by discussing her recent projects at home. She and her partner, Jake, have taken a substantial break from house projects, allowing them time to dream up new ideas:

“...we did that with the kitchen, which is still on, and it's really exciting.” ([06:09])

She shares her vision of transforming an unfinished attic space into a cozy movie room, aiming to create a dedicated area for intentional viewing and relaxation.

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2. Sharing Personal Lows

Becca's Struggle with Balance Becca candidly addresses her ongoing challenge with balancing her writing endeavors amidst a demanding travel schedule:

“I'm really struggling with balancing writing with my travel schedule... I need to figure out how to do both, and I'm struggling with it.” ([13:24])

She reflects on the pressure of meeting self-imposed deadlines for her book, ultimately seeking to reduce the financial dependency on annual book releases to alleviate stress.

Olivia's Health Spiral Olivia opens up about a recent health scare that triggered a mini health spiral:

“I had a symptom that I've never had... it was a bit of a health spiral, but I'm feeling better now.” ([14:21])

She emphasizes the rapid shift from anxiety to relief once she sought professional help, showcasing her resilience in overcoming unexpected challenges.

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3. Deep Dive into Comparison and Competition

Defining the Concepts Olivia initiates the core discussion by distinguishing between comparison and competition:

“Comparison has always felt to me like I'm shrinking, sort of. And I hate that.” ([23:17])

Becca adds her perspective, noting that while she leans more towards jealousy, especially in aspects like style and hair, her feelings of comparison are fleeting and often irrational:

“...it's like an irrational thing that once you think about it a little more, like, it doesn't haunt me in any way.” ([23:17])

Personal Experiences with Competitiveness Becca identifies herself as a highly competitive individual, attributing this trait to being an only child and expressing how it permeates various aspects of her life:

“It's about everything. It's about important things, and it's about deeply unimportant things.” ([19:02])

Olivia contrasts her own competitiveness, rating herself around a 3 out of 10, and explains how she primarily grapples with comparison rather than active competition:

“To me, competitive is like, there must be one winner, you know, and it must be me.” ([20:07])

Impact on Careers Becca discusses how her competitiveness fueled her early career in marketing and consulting, leading to both success and burnout due to the high demands of startup environments:

“It has made me be a very hard worker... and then led to burnout.” ([33:08])

Olivia reflects on her transition from a competitive editorial role to the more ambiguous world of publishing, where success metrics are less transparent and more subjective:

“There's so little transparency. So it's really hard to even know how you're doing for yourself.” ([42:09])

Publishing Industry's Competitive Culture Both hosts highlight the intense and often isolating nature of competition within the publishing industry. Becca shares her struggle with keeping up with authors who release multiple books annually:

“I had somehow internalized that to be a successful author, I had to write a book a year... I felt a sense of failure.” ([41:06])

Olivia echoes these sentiments, discussing how the lack of clear success metrics and the constant comparison to peers can exacerbate feelings of inadequacy:

“It's this fixation on these details that you think, like, Amazon rankings... I struggle with sometimes.” ([52:27])

Coping Strategies and Personal Goals To combat these challenges, Becca aims to "go easier on herself," recognizing the need to celebrate her achievements rather than constantly striving for the next goal:

“My biggest goal is to go easier on myself.” ([66:13])

Olivia voices her intention to focus more on personal growth rather than external comparisons:

“I want to remember that comparison is not creative... to actually enjoy my life and like myself.” ([66:18])

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4. Reflections on Co-hosting the Podcast

Becca and Olivia discuss their journey as co-hosts, highlighting the initial fears and the organic development of their partnership. Olivia shares her apprehension about being compared to the previous host, Grace, and how her confidence has grown over time:

“I feel a lot more confident now in general in all things.” ([62:40])

Becca expresses gratitude for Olivia's presence and the seamless integration into the podcast, emphasizing the positive impact it has had on their dynamic:

“I'm so glad that you're the co-host and it has gone so well.” ([63:35])

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5. Obsessions and Book Club Picks

Becca's Board Game Obsession Becca introduces her newfound love for the board game Hues and Q's, describing its engaging and creative gameplay centered around color descriptions:

“It's a fun game for a big group... it scratched an itch for me.” ([69:00])

Olivia's eBay Fascination Olivia shares her recent obsession with eBay, detailing her discovery of vintage items and nostalgic memorabilia:

“I've gotten into a habit of looking up old toys I used to have as a nostalgia bomb.” ([70:53])

Book Club Selection Becca announces the August book club pick, The Night and the Moth by Rachel Gilligan, a Romantasy novel that promises a moody and atmospheric journey:

“It felt really like moody and atmospheric... I’m very excited to discuss it with everyone.” ([75:36])

Olivia adds her own book recommendation, Greenwich by Kate Broad, praising its gripping narrative and complex characters:

“I absolutely loved it... deeply flawed characters that I think people would find offensive.” ([74:04])

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6. Conclusion: Goals Around Dealing with Jealousy and Competition

As the episode winds down, Becca and Olivia reiterate their personal goals to manage feelings of jealousy and competition. Becca emphasizes the importance of self-compassion, while Olivia focuses on maintaining creative autonomy:

“I just want to lean into just focusing on myself and my work.” ([66:39])

Their heartfelt exchange underscores the ongoing journey of self-improvement and the pursuit of personal fulfillment beyond external validations.

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Notable Quotes:

• Becca Freeman at [00:55]: “It feels really good... I did not expect to win this time... even the last place ones were very good.”

• Olivia Muenter at [20:07]: “To me, competitive is like, there must be one winner, you know, and it must be me.”

• Becca Freeman at [41:06]: “I have had such a sense of failure and such a sense of competition and I'm coming up really lacking.”

• Olivia Muenter at [52:27]: “There's this fixation on these details that you think, like, Amazon rankings... I struggle with sometimes.”

• Becca Freeman at [66:13]: “My biggest goal is to go easier on myself.”

• Olivia Muenter at [66:18]: “I want to remember that comparison is not creative... to actually enjoy my life and like myself.”

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This episode offers a profound exploration of how comparison and competition shape our professional trajectories and personal well-being. Becca and Olivia's honest dialogue provides listeners with relatable insights and practical reflections on navigating these complex emotions.

Transcript

[Olivia Mentor]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Bow Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia, mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And today we are doing a deep dive into all things comparison competition jealousy. This is actually one of my favorite subjects, so I've been wanting to do an episode on this for a while. So, yeah, we're gonna dive into all of it.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm excited to hear your thoughts.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ditto. Okay, well, I think that people will be excited to know this, so tell us your high.

[Becca Freeman]

So I am a two time Lobster Roll off champion.

[Olivia Mentor]

Congratulations. How does it feel?

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you so much. I'd like to thank the fans. I'd like to thank my fellow competitors, the judges. It feels really good. I was not being falsely modest. I did not expect to win this time. And I feel like we all agreed that the roles across the board were much better this year than they have been in any previous year. Like, everyone took a step up. Usually there's one or two that are either straight up bad or just kind of lackluster or disappointing. And this year, like, even the last place ones were very good. So I'm also doubly honored to win against such a competitive field.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm forgetting, have you already talked about what you made?

[Becca Freeman]

I think so, but I mean, let's have everything in one place. So I did a Calabrian chili garlic butter with like a little bit of honey. So it was a warm roll. And then I did very thinly sliced basil on top and lemon zest. So another spicy roll, which is why I thought I wasn't going to win, because I thought people were going to be eye rolly because I did a buffalo lobster roll this year and I thought people were going to think it's too close.

[Olivia Mentor]

The basil is unexpected.

[Becca Freeman]

It was really good. It was a good compliment.

[Olivia Mentor]

What do you think is the thing that gave you the edge? Also, was it close?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes, it was. It was very close. The second place was my friend Molly, whose house we were at in Maine, and she did, by and far, I think, the most creative role. She did a French toast lobster roll. So she French toasted the bun.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's rich.

[Becca Freeman]

It was very rich. And then the inside was a buttered lobster and then hot honey on top, and it was very good. And then she also took somebody had, like, impulse bought Teddy Grahams at the store and she took them and she crumbled them and then she toasted them and put them on top as a crunch element.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. It was very good. I think that overall, the group flavor profile runs more savory than Sweet. But, like, hers was far and away more creative than mine.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. The Teddy Grahams. I've never heard of such a thing.

[Becca Freeman]

I know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. I think you should get, like, the winner should get, you know, those wrestling belts. Oh, yeah, it should be. Except for instead of, like, a gold plaque in the center, it should be two giant lobster claws, like in, you know, gold.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, you're absolutely right. I think that the weakest part of this competition to date has been the prize, which is usually just bragging rights. This year, my friend Elizabeth brought this two pack of lobster underwear for the winter.

[Olivia Mentor]

Not as good as the lobster belt, but you could combine them. The belt and the underwear.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think the underwear is, like. Is mine now. I don't think we're trading off every year.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm saying you, like, you're going to keep winning, I would assume.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I hope so. It's a lot to live up to.

[Olivia Mentor]

You kind of have to now.

[Becca Freeman]

I know.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm worried for you if you were to lose.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I mean, the first year, Molly won. The second year, she was dead last, so anything can happen here. In the Lobster Roll off, you're like the Patriots.

[Olivia Mentor]

You are Tom Brady. I think in this scenario, maybe I.

[Becca Freeman]

Don'T know enough about football to confirm or deny that, but at his overall, like, presence as a celebrity, like, does that mean I'm going to get, like, really out of touch and, like, a little scary, too? Thin, muscly?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen next if you keep winning it. I mean, clearly it. Something happened to him, but he also has a yacht, I think, so that could be for him as well. That could be you.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't.

[Olivia Mentor]

Lobster underwear. Lobster wrestling belt.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Lobster bra, maybe.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. I mean, we were saying that we should. And none of us actually want to do this, but, like, we should have a food truck or something that then, you know, serves the different lobster rolls. Just. There's not a lot of creative lobster rolls out there.

[Olivia Mentor]

They're all happening at your friend's house.

[Becca Freeman]

I know.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, Teddy Graham's is some. I'm still stuck. If you would have told me on this earth someone is combining Teddy Grahams and lobster, I would have said, nope, nowhere. There's not a single person doing that. And yet there is. And I'm only one degree of separation from you.

[Becca Freeman]

I know.

[Olivia Mentor]

And yet you reign supreme, which I think says a lot about the flavor profile that you developed.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. Thank you. I'm Already thinking about next year and how I retain my championship streak.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. The stakes are high.

[Becca Freeman]

The stakes are incredibly high. My friend Elizabeth has a list of 10 concepts in her phone. She's like the Peter Dinklage in Elf where he has his notebook full of kids book ideas. She has, like, a notes app full of lobster roll ideas.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. Well, I can't wait to check back in and see what happens. Congratulations once again.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. Tell me about your high.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is way less exciting, but Jake and I have taken, I would say, a pretty substantial break from house projects this year.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, not that substantial because I feel like you only finished the writing cottage three months ago.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it wasn't. It seems like a long time ago, but, yes. I wasn't really in here with the stove working until probably early March. It was. There was still snowing, but it was getting towards spring, so we took a break from most things. Jake is always doing something, but in terms of big projects, which has been really nice, but we're finally getting into that stage again where we're, like, dreaming up various things. So when we first moved in, we did this thing a lot where on, like, a Saturday or Sunday morning, we'd, like, get our coffee and just go to a room and just kind of talk about it in complete and total detail. Like, what could go here, what could go there? Like, standing in the different areas, imagining the different things. So over the weekend, we did that with the kitchen, which is still on.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that's so exciting.

[Olivia Mentor]

The roster for next year. And it's, like, actually starting to feel very real, which is thrilling. And then we also did. We made this decision over the weekend where we were like, I don't think we want our TV in our living room anymore. Oh, I don't know why. It just. It's always kind of like.

[Becca Freeman]

So you want, like, a formal sitting room for conversation and then a separate TV room.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, because there's no good way to. Well, right now our TV is displayed on top of the mantel, which is fine, and it works and it's comfortable and we use it a lot. But I just. I don't like that if I'm standing in our dining room, I can see the TV at all times. It just is, like this huge thing that takes up this massive amount of space, and I just think, doesn't look good within the room. Whatever. And I had always had this idea, we have an unfinished attic space. It's, like, half finished, actually. And we went up there over the weekend, and I was like, this is gonna Be an awesome movie room. I was like, we could have a mini fridge. We could have the most gigantic sectional couch. We could put a mini split air conditioner so it can heat and cool the space. And it'll just be, I don't know, it's very like, cozy and snug in there. And I just thought it would be so nice to have a space where we go and we choose to go there and we choose to watch something because as we know, I really struggle with like mindless scrolling on Netflix and yeah, I'm just excited about the possibility of designing a really weird space. And we don't go up there a lot. It's mostly just storage. So I'm like, cool, another thing to dream up in the next five years or whatever.

[Becca Freeman]

So do you have to finish it first or it's partially finished. Like, there's an area that's finished that you would use, then you would keep another area as like, unfinished storage.

[Olivia Mentor]

So there's two rooms up there. One is more finished, the other one is a little more rough. So like one, the floors are refinished, the other one, the floors are kind of like raw, unfinished wood floors. And so the one where the floors are unfinished, we'd probably just have to paint everything and. And refinish the floors. And then it would be like, very functional. The only thing is that in that space, it has a very cool floor fresco on the walls, which is, I guess, original because it's painted on the plaster. And then over that in certain parts is a floral wallpaper. But it's very cool looking. And it's this really nice. I can't even really describe it. There's something about it that feels very theater y to me. But it's really beautiful. And so I want to try to find a way to preserve it. But there is like drywall on the ceiling. So clearly at some point something was done in there. Also, there's two very large little closets, like where you go and sit in them. They're big enough for that, which I guess all closets are now that I'm thinking. But I don't know, we could do something cool in those too, like little reading nooks or something.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that feels a little claustrophobic to me. I don't know how I feel about that. I trust you.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm like, well, maybe if kids came to our house or something, it could be little kids, like reading nooks or something. Could be cute. I just love little pockets of books, cute spaces. So it just feels like another Another thing to discover and dream up.

[Becca Freeman]

I guess I have an unhelpful short term solution. Should you guys just get one of those frame TVs?

[Olivia Mentor]

I thought about that. The only thing is that, like, I don't think we could actually mount it on the wall where our TV is now because it's brick behind there and I don't know how the cords would work. Like, I don't think we could put the electric stuff in the wall.

[Becca Freeman]

No, you probably couldn't. But you could, you could put cord covers over it that are the same color, make it as unobtrusive as possible.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can, because I could see you.

[Becca Freeman]

I could see you finding some type of. I mean, it would have to be very specific measurements, but I could see you finding some like antique or Goodwill type actual frame to put around it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

And then, you know, you can put anything you want on the screensaver. So, you know, it could be whatever vibe you wanted or different vibes for different times of year.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I've considered that. And I've also considered we have like an alcove to the left of the, you know, the left of the fireplace. So I kind of thought we could just build a built in and hide it in there. But then I was like, I don't know, we have this other space.

[Becca Freeman]

Something tells me, I mean, I think it would be cool to have a movie room for like big movie nights. But on the regular, I don't think you're going to want to climb four flights of stairs to watch TV and then to have to come down to go to the kitchen to get something.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's why the mini fridge is key. I do see your point. My counterpoint would be if there's something that gets me to watch less tv, that might be better.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay. So reading still happens downstairs, you think, in the library? Oh, yes, of course.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, yes. And like, maybe we could have. Have you seen those TVs that are like on wheels, like on an easel? They're like. I think it's like Samsung or something. I see it a lot in reels of people, like in the bathtub and they wheel their little TV on. It kind of reminds me of like when you had a substitute teacher and they wheeled in the TV with like the Velcro strap over the top, but obviously it's cooler. And I thought, well, maybe we could have one of those if people are watching a game downstairs or something.

[Becca Freeman]

I've thought about getting one of those because I don't have a TV in my bedroom and I Don't want a TV in my bedroom. Like, I. I think I have very good sleep hygiene of, like, keeping bed just for sleep. But every so often, if I'm sick or it's really cold or it's really hot and my bedroom has the best air conditioning. Like, there are certain times where I'm like, wow, being able to watch TV in bed or like, after a long flight for some reason, like, once in a while would be such a treat.

[Olivia Mentor]

I totally agree with you. I find going to a hotel and watching TV in bed to be one of the most, like, delightful treats.

[Becca Freeman]

I do that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, my gosh. I love it so much. I saw a reel the other day, someone talking about how you have all your little snacks, you have your room service, you have your ice water. The room is like 25 degrees, it's ice cold, and you turn on cable and it's just the best. But I kind of thought, what if I could recreate that feeling in my own home? Because watching something would be a more special experience and less of a, oh, this is just what we do at 6pm I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm excited to see how this evolves.

[Olivia Mentor]

We'll see. Stay tuned. It may never happen. As many things with our house may or may not. Well, tell me about your low.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I have a real classic Becca low. Like, this is a repeat vintage almost low. So I'm really struggling with kind of motivation, but more so balancing writing with my travel schedule. So if you remember, I was supposed to get my edits at the beginning of July, and I had no travel in July. And now I'm gone almost every weekend of August, and then even for some longer trips, too. And I'm only here three days this week. And so getting myself to get into a productive groove, I. I'm like, ugh, like, I should just start next week. I don't know. The answer is that I need to figure out how to do both, and I'm struggling with it.

[Olivia Mentor]

You do have a lot of travel coming up. At one point, I was trying to move a recording, and I looked at your schedule and I was like, I don't think she's here one day. I know you're really on the move. I am, but it's exciting.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? What's your low?

[Olivia Mentor]

My low is also a classic Olivia low. So we're really just going back to the greatest hits place. But I had a, like a mini health spiral this week. Cause I had a symptom that I've never had. And for whatever Reason I was feeling like lacking self control. So I googled it. Which was a bad choice. Oh no, it was just a bad choice. But it did like kick me into full gear. I made all my appointments. Good. So. And I'm feeling better. The symptom is no longer in my mind. It's really amazing how fast I can go from depending on death to, oh, my tummy was just feeling a little weird. You know the swing. The swing is also very classic Olivia. But anyway, I'm feeling good now.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm glad. And I'm glad you have appointments set up.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you. Well, let's take a quick ad break and then we will get into this episode.

[Becca Freeman]

Let's do it.

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I think the thing that I personally love the most about Cozy Earth's bamboo sheets is that they sort of transform into exactly what I need in my bedding in any given season. So in the summer they feel cool and refreshing, and in the winter they feel cozy and luxurious. And all year long they feel so, so soft. And in fact, I have noticed, Becca, maybe you have noticed this too, that they get softer and softer and softer with every single wash. I love them like 10 times more now than I did when I first got them.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes, you're so right. I noticed that too. I found them to be almost a little slippery when I first got them. And they have matured into my favorite. So Cozy Earth bedding really does feel different from other products. I've tried their Cuddle blanket. Their faux fur blanket is absolutely my favorite thing. I get asked about this thing all the time. Also, anyone who comes over to my house wants to lay under it to try it. It really is the best combination of comfort and style. It's like a nice faux fur. It's really, really soft, but then it also has a weight to it. Like it's not quite a weighted blanket, but it is really soothing. Oh my gosh. It is my favorite thing. I've had to put it aside because it's been too warm here, but I am very ready to use the second temperatures drop even a scooch.

[Olivia Mentor]

I feel the same about my Cuddle blanket. I'm very, very excited. So head to cozyearth.com and use our code BOP for 40% off any of these products. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Because your bed should be more than a place to sleep. It should be your happy place. Cozy Earth makes that possible. But that's code BOP for 40% [e-mail].

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, Olivia, give us the background. Give us the origin story for this idea.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I have been wanting to do an episode on this topic, similar to the episode that we did on rejection for a long time now. And we have been trying to make it. Make it happen for a while. And our plan originally, full transparency, was to have multiple interviews in the same way that we did in the rejection episode. So we talk about our experience with rejection, then we talk to various professionals, authors, business people about theirs. And so we're doing a sort of modified version of that here. But actually, the more I thought about it, I thought that it would be cool if we just did an episode about this with you and I. And then we're going to have a bonus episode, a sort of mini bonus episode with the author, Chelsea Beaker, about her experiences specifically in the publishing world, in the writing world, with comparison, competition, jealousy, all those things. But for this one, I just thought. I don't know, why don't we just talk about it? I feel like you and I have actually never had a conversation about if we compare ourselves to each other, which I think is a super cool thing to talk about, although not necessarily the most natural subject to come up in conversation.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So, yeah, we're gonna. I thought we'd talk about our general experiences with these things, and then, of course, through the lens of, like, our careers and writing, and then also, like, as two people who work together and are trying to do similar things and if we ever deal with jealousy.

[Becca Freeman]

So light topics, let's get into it.

[Olivia Mentor]

So you just a couple weeks ago said. You basically said, I'm a very competitive person.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'm a competitive nightmare.

[Olivia Mentor]

Have you always been this way?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yes. I think part of it is an only child trait, I think. I don't know. Yes, I've always been this way. And it's. It's about everything. It's about important things, and it's about deeply unimportant things. I can make any board game experience not fun for everyone if I'm in the wrong mood and I'm not doing well.

[Olivia Mentor]

Have we talked about this? You were the child that was flipping the Monopoly board when you didn't win.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, probably.

[Olivia Mentor]

That was my brother. Like, he'd be like 6 or 7 and just flip it. He'd be like, I'm done, I'm done. The second he was losing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So you were competitive in school? In sports, all the things.

[Becca Freeman]

Not sports. I've never been athletic or sporty. But definitely academics in work, in play. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think you've always been the same level of competitive? Like, do you think it has shifted in any sense?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I. Well, maybe I do think I've mellowed with age. People listening are probably like, this is the mellower version. I actually think competitiveness is a trait that feels somewhat core to me. And I've never tried to disabuse myself of, like, I've never tried to train myself out of it in any way. So, yeah, I feel like it's kind of just always been a baseline. But comparison, I do feel like, has dulled somewhat increasingly as I get older.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's really interesting because I think I can be competitive and my parents have often been like, oh, you're so competitive. And I've just never really.

[Becca Freeman]

About what, though? I don't see you as competitive. Well, I mean, yeah, it's. It's for you to say, not for me to say, but, like, I don't know. If you were like, rank Olivia, on a scale of 1 to 10 about competitiveness, I would probably be like a 3.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I feel that's correct. Maybe like a little bit above a 3. But generally I don't identify with that word because to me, competitive is like, there must be one winner, you know, and it must be me. And I've really never felt that way. Like, I'm the person that. First of all, if you're explaining the rules of a board game to me, I'm already mentally checked out. I've left the building 10 minutes ago. And also, I don't care if I win at all. But I have been always hyper comparison prone in everything, every aspect of my entire life. And I think comparison and competition are inherently different. But I almost would rather be competitive because I think it's like, it feels more active, it feels more like you're going for something. Whereas comparison has always felt to me like I'm shrinking, sort of. And I hate that.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm trying.

[Olivia Mentor]

Does that make any sense?

[Becca Freeman]

It does. I'm trying to think this through in real time because I've never thought of that distinction between the two. But it does make sense. I don't know. I think there's also some aspect of comparison that's just inherent to social media and the way that we live these days. And I think everyone experiences it, I guess. And I don't know, I don't have as eloquent a distinction, but I feel like I experience less comparison and I experience more jealousy, which to me feels more fleeting. And more irrational. Like, for an example, I will see somebody who has a really great house on Instagram, somebody I don't know, or maybe somebody that I follow but only know peripherally. And I'll be like, oh, my God, I'm so jealous of this gorgeous kitchen. But it's irrational, because once you, like, take it two steps further, you're like, usually if it's a very large kitchen, it's in a suburb. And I'm like, oh, I don't actually want to live there. You know, it's just like an irrational thing that once you think about it a little more, like, it doesn't haunt me in any way. Or, like, you know, you see somebody on a great vacation to Italy or Paris or somewhere, and you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so jealous. And you're like, oh, well, I'm not on vacation because I'm going on this other vacation or because I've decided X, Y, Z. You know, Like, I feel like it's very fleeting.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a really good point. And I experience jealousy all the time as well. But I think comparison to me feels more like, not like I want this thing, but, like, what does it mean about me that I don't have this thing? You know, that, like, feels a very slight difference. It always feels like, okay, I need to catch up and meet the standard, because if I don't, then I'm not good enough in some way. Like, that's the core of it to me.

[Becca Freeman]

I need examples insofar as you're comfortable. Tell me more about, like, what areas we're talking about. Cause I was trying to think, and I can go first. I was trying to think of areas where I do feel comparison, because I was. Big comparison. Not just like, in a moment where you're like, oh, that person's doing better than me. And, like, it kind of just goes away. Two areas, actually, I can think of where I do think. I constantly feel comparison. One, oddly, is style.

[Olivia Mentor]

Really?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And it's interesting because I have different friend groups, and in some I feel totally comfortable, and I never worry about this. And then in other circumstances, and especially in a circumstance where I'm going somewhere that is, quote, unquote, cool, and maybe I don't know, the people going. I'm like, am I wearing the right thing? And then when I get there, I'm like, oh, this person is dressed this way. And I feel like I do feel comparison in that way. And especially if it's like a. I don't know, like, A fashion event or something that had, like, people who are known to be stylish. I'm like, oh, gosh, am I doing. Am I doing this right? And the other is hair. Anyone with really luscious hair, I feel I'm always like, oh, my God, I want to scalp you and wear it as a wig. But those are the only two areas which are. And I'm. I do think I'm being honest here. You can call me on any of this, but I, like, I don't think that I have a lot of, like, comparison that I stew on.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right, Right. It's more, like you said, it's fleeting. It's fleeting. It just kind of flits in and flits out. It doesn't. Like, you don't think about it for days. No. Okay. Not even when it comes to, like, work stuff. We'll get into.

[Becca Freeman]

We can. We can talk about this more. There's been. There's been eras. Whereas, like, when I lost my mind after my book came out, where I have definitely stewed more, but on. On the whole and, like, in the present. No, tell me your examples. Cause I feel like I need to understand this better.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Well, I was gonna say about the style thing, I felt that so much, and I think it was heightened because I worked in fashion in some sense, but I felt that so much when I lived in New York City. Like, every event I went to, I would start the day and I'd be like, I love this outfit. I'd end the day, and I feel like, what am I wearing? And why is it not better? I think there's something about New York where everyone has such amazing style. You can literally do whatever you want. It feels like you. And then it just. Everything seems to fall short.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree. And then there's. I think this is newer for me. But then there's like, is this unique enough? Because people also have such a unique style. And so you're wearing something and you're like. I don't love the word basic, because it's like. Like, whatever you like. I like tons of things that are, quote, unquote, basic. But, you know, is this what everyone's wearing?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yes. It's this balance of, like, this feels like me. This feels good. It feels. I don't know. It feels so stupid to be like. It feels cool.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I think especially as I've gotten older, I never used to think about that, and now I think about it a lot. Maybe that's just how aging feels all the time. Okay. But for me, I Mean, I don't think there's any area that I have not compared myself to other people. I won't say that it, like, rules my life in the way that it has at some points. Like, I've. I've talked about this a lot, but I had just have had such overwhelming body image issues that, like, first of all, I cannot view my body in a normal way. Like, I don't know what I'm seeing, but I'm sure it is not reality or. Which should be comforting, but actually scares me a lot because I think, oh, it must be worse, actually. And so then I feel the only way I can judge it is by comparing it to other people. Like, that's how I measure if I'm good or not or bad or ugly or. Or anything. So that definitely was something that has, throughout my life, affected me. And I think. And I've talked about this too, but I did walk into so many rooms as a teenager, and I was just bigger, like, than any everyone taller. And so I think that carries, you know, like, and that still happens sometimes, and it's hard to let go of it. But I do try to have it sort of, you know, be a fleeting thing more often, for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

How do you experience it? Because you said that you feel comparison in all areas. Is it like, if you're in a bad place, it's turned up to 10 on every area? Or is it like, okay, sometimes the body image stuff is turned up to 10, but the work stuff is a 2 and sometimes vice versa? Or do the dials go up and down? Or is it like a steady 10 on everything?

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, it. It definitely goes up and down. I mean, tell me if you can relate to this, but, like, if something, especially with work, which we'll go get into with writing, if something is not going the way I want it, or I didn't get something I wanted to get, everything else starts to feel, like, worse. You know, it's like, if it's all going okay, I'm okay at, like, having confidence in myself and, like, my career and whatever's going on my life. I mean, I love my life. I really do. And I like myself quite a bit. But it's almost like if one thing pokes at insecurity, it, like, lets in all the other stuff too.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you ever experience that?

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like I experience that more in times of uncertainty versus disappointment or, like, perceived failure.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. If you don't know what's gonna happen, yes.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like I spiral in uncertainty, for me, feels much worse than Actually the bad.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

For some logical reason.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, it's like a different form of insecurity, literally. Yeah, so I get that too. I also have struggled with that, for sure. Like when I'm waiting for news, as we always are, that's. That's a rough time for me, usually in most regards.

[Becca Freeman]

So this is an interesting conversation to have because there's, I think a seven year age difference between us. I'm turning 39 at the end of the summer. You're 32. So do you feel like your comparison has dulled as you have gotten older or no?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think yes and no. I think the thing that's really interesting is that I feel like as content with my life as I have ever felt. But I also feel when it comes to writing books and stuff, I feel like such a tight grip on it. Or if I, like, if I let one thing fall, it goes away, which it could at any point. And by the way, I can't really control it either. It would devastate me. So it feels like in that sense I am more prone to comparison because I am wanting to be successful so badly at this. Whereas in my other careers I wanted to be successful, but I was like, there'll be other jobs, you know, like, there'll be other titles, there'll be other things. And so it feels a bit different.

[Becca Freeman]

What about relative? Not in career, but like, what about like, relative to like when you were a teenager? Because I can almost picture mine like a really steep hill where it was like the highest. When you're a teenager and you're like, oh, I want this coach bag. I want this, like, it was so material, or I want to go to this college, things like that. And then, you know, in my 20s, it was very career centric. And I, I feel like in my 30s and throughout my 30s, it's like continually dulled because I think there's a sense of, like, you just have a better sense of self of like, what is for me versus you're not. Like, God bless you if you can. But like, if I woke up tomorrow and I was like, I want to be the best basketball player in the world. It's like, oh, babe, that ship sailed. You're 38, you don't like exercising and like, you have no hand eye coordination.

[Olivia Mentor]

I would pay for that reality show. Do you remember made. They should have made like the MTV show for adults. Like, I think you could do it like maybe an amateur league. That's how determined you are. That's where I think the competitive streak pays Off. Because if you decided you wanted to do that, I think you could.

[Becca Freeman]

I. I don't think I. That's very generous of you, but I don't think I could. But also, there's just like. You see other people, you're not as much like, why not me? You're like, good for them, not for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I can also relate to, like, the trend change in the sense that, like, I feel like I very much know who I am now, and 10 years ago I very much did not. I mean, does any 22 year old know who they are? So in some ways I think I had no. I was gonna say in some ways I have more confidence, but no, that's not true at all. So, yes, it has gotten better in a lot of ways. And I think actually the thing that throws me off is that I expect it to go away because of that, and it just doesn't ever completely. And it sneaks up on me. I'm like, why is that still happening?

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like there's kind of cultural tropes about your 20s, 30s, 40s, and so, you know, you expect to, like, wake up one day and you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm free of fucks, I give none.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yep.

[Becca Freeman]

And I think that's. That's definitely oversimplified.

[Olivia Mentor]

I totally agree. Do you think that your, like, your competitiveness has helped you be successful?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes, a hundred percent. I think it has made me be a very hard worker. I think that there's a flip side, there's a negative to it as well. But I. Yes, I absolutely think it has been helpful in almost everything I've done.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was putting together these questions and I was thinking about when you use the word competitive with men, it is so often, like, they're super competitive and hardworking and successful. And when you use it with women, sometimes I think it can be like, I don't know, like, you shouldn't be competitive or something. Or like, it's just somehow I just think there's a lot of sexism baked into it sometimes.

[Becca Freeman]

But you're right.

[Olivia Mentor]

But also, like you said, there's like so much about it that just means you're hardworking and you're gonna believe in yourself and, like, fight for the wins in your career and your life that you want. And there's nothing wrong with that at all.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? Do you think that comparison has ever been a positive?

[Olivia Mentor]

Helps me? No. Okay. But that's why I kind of wish I had a little more, like, flipping it around, like, Instead of saying, like, oh, I don't have this thing, and therefore there's something wrong with me, I should have, like, why can't I have this thing? You know, why can't I work towards that as well? And that doesn't mean that other person can't have it too. But you kind of mentioned this. But do you think competitiveness has ever hurt you in any way?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, absolutely. Like, I am extremely hard on myself. I am extremely hard on myself, and I have much higher expectations for myself than I do other people. And I think that I am really bad at celebrating wins because I'm, like, already onto the next thing. And I think I beat myself up over, like, small things. Yeah. I think that mental health wise, I still think it's a net positive, but I think that there's like, if you're looking at a bar graph, it's like, if competitiveness, like, the whole positive bar is a hundred percent. I think there's also like a 50% bar. That's the negative.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Is it kind of like if you don't hit some sort of marker that you are. You have been kind of challenging yourself to hit, like, some win that you wanted? Do you feel like if you don't beat yourself up that, like, yeah, it's your fault? And like, you. It's almost like, do you feel like you have to be mean to yourself to do better next time?

[Becca Freeman]

No.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or is it just pure, like, it's.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, that I should have done better. I should be able to do it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. And so it's just like this meanness, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

Absolutely. That I would never think or talk that way to another person.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Well, this is the thing that I can definitely relate to as well because that also is kind of what comparison feels like. If someone came to me with, like, you know, this person has this and I didn't get it and therefore I suck, I would be like, come on. Like, you're great for all these other reasons, but we really are, I think, meaner to ourselves than anyone else.

[Becca Freeman]

Absolutely.

[Olivia Mentor]

For me, sometimes it feels, though, like if I say the mean thing and I think it, then, like, it saves me. Like, it. Do you ever feel that way where it's like, oh, no matter what you think of me, it doesn't really matter because I have already been there. I've already predicted it. I could already tell you a million bad things. Or is that not really how it works for you?

[Becca Freeman]

That's not really how it works. But I. I recognize that in, like, isolated instances of, like, there were many points with the book that I'm working on now. And I know we're gonna switch to career topics after this, but there were many times where I felt unsure if it was gonna get there. And it was like, oh, if I say the shitty thing about it first, even in my head, I will be aware of it, so it won't hurt as much if somebody else says it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I've been there too. And I mean, that's like the perfect, I think, transition into talking about work stuff, not just writing. But we both have had, especially you, like, very different careers than to the ones we have now. And. Yeah. What has that experience been like for you? Your career evolution and dealing with all of these things in your various jobs?

[Becca Freeman]

So I think I'm going to discount the first two years of my career where I worked for a consulting firm and was like, this sucks. And then I started working in marketing for startups. And I feel like my competitiveness and just my hard work was always an asset because at a startup there's always too many things to do and not enough time to do them. And so I feel like I don't think it was healthy whatsoever, but, you know, I would be like, well, I can do it, you know. And so it was actually like a very helpful startup trait that then leads to burnout. But in terms of it's rewarded, for sure. Yes, it's rewarded. And in terms of, like, your usefulness to the company, like, it is what they're looking for. And I think the difference is, is that in past jobs, I was always really competitive, but I was always sure I was a top performer. And I always worked for smaller companies, so I was never working for, like, a multinational corporation where there's, you know, a thousand tens of thousands of people workforce. Like, I was always like, yes, you can. The people I work with, you can sit in a room and like, I'm sure I'm a top performer, you know, like, I'm giving my all, I'm doing well. And I think what's been really interesting about making the transition to consulting or doing freelance marketing was that there was no one to compete against. And I felt really unfulfilled by freelance marketing. It was good. It was a great means to an end because I had much more schedule flexibility. It was around the time the podcast was starting. It was good money. And eventually when I was writing my book, it gave me that flexibility that I wasn't in a 9 to 5 and then had to squeeze it in from 5 to 8 or something like that. And so overall it was good, but I felt very adrift, I think, partially because there wasn't this aspect of competition. And then also the social aspect of it was really lacking for me. Like, I felt like a mercenary as opposed to having this like, community of like your work family almost, which was a very toxic term. But we can put that aside for now. So, yeah, that felt really different. And then in publishing, it feels almost even more different because there's so little transparency. So it's so hard to know how you're doing. Like, you'll know if you're Taylor Jenkins Reid. Like, it will be very apparent, but there's a lot of shades of gray in the middle and there's a lot of secrecy. People aren't sharing because contractually I don't think you're supposed to be able to. Although I'm not a lawyer and don't know. But I like, I don't think you're supposed to share how much you're getting paid. A lot of times you're not even able to access accurate book sales info. So it's like, it's really hard to even know how you're doing for yourself. And I think that's been very, like, spirally for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

And there's very much a culture of like, this sounds actually insane to say it, but you can't just really email and be like, so like, are you guys happy?

[Becca Freeman]

Nobody shares a KPI with you. Like, marketing is so KPI based. You have a revenue goal or a customer goal or something and you're constantly tracking towards that. Nobody ever gives you a goal. It's very amorphous in publishing, but, like, on the non metric side, like, one area that I felt a ton of competition being an author is writing a book a year. I had somehow internalized that. To be a successful author, I had to write a book a year. And, you know, that's what Emily Henry is doing. That's what Carly Fortune is doing. It's what a lot of these authors whose books I love are doing, who are very successful as authors. And I thought that I needed to write a book a year. And I'm now over the two and a half year mark on this book. And I felt in 2023 and 2024, such a sense of failure and such a sense of like, I'm competing and I'm coming up really lacking. It was, it was comparison.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think it's just because, you know, these are the authors that you hold in such high esteem and you were just like, to Be them. I have to do this. Even though there are many very successful authors that don't do a book a.

[Becca Freeman]

Year, I think that it's partially that, but I think it's also just the financials of being an author. And so the way my book contract works is I get paid in quarters. So I get paid a quarter on signing, a quarter when the manuscript is accepted, a quarter when the book comes out, and a quarter a year after the book comes out. And so using this book as an example, I signed the contract in 2022 or at the very beginning of 2023. I'm going to finish the manuscript sometime, hopefully in Q4. It'll hopefully come out next year and then the year after payment will be in 2027. So like you're stretching it over such a long time so you almost need to be. I don't, I don't know if you need to be. But like writing a book a year is like one of the best ways to be an author as your main gig.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it's much more secure. Yeah. I mean, it's funny you say that because it's never even entered my brain to write a book a year because I just don't even think I could. It's so hard. It's so hard. But I get what you're saying because it's so much more financially stable.

[Becca Freeman]

But I think that's where my brain goes, where I'm like, okay, if they can do it, I can do it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right. Well, how do you feel about it now? Do you feel like it's off the table? Cause I mean, who's to say the next book is in a totally different experience? I mean, every book is different.

[Becca Freeman]

I think that I'm trying to like, not even entertain it. Like I'd like to get to a book every other year. I've had such a stressful experience with this book, so much of which is self created pressure because of my competitiveness with myself, with other people, that I've made myself miserable at times and I would really like to have a looser grip. And I'm trying really hard not to be like, okay, this was the one off and now next time you're gonna do it in a year, I'm like, no, no, no, we're not doing that. And I think that's so much of why one of my goals this year more broadly has been to diversify my income away from books. Not because I don't wanna do it, but because I wanna not have so much financial pressure on it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. That's very fair. I feel the same.

[Becca Freeman]

What about for you? How have your feelings of comparison and, or competition evolved in the different phases of your career?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think when I was an editor, I, I was almost more competitive in a sense because it was much more black and white. It was like, there is this promotion, you know, there is this salary raise. That is what is on the table. Those are your options for improving. You know, I only was an editor for, for four years right out of college, but like, I was fairly good at it. I felt like it was, it was easy for me to. Not easy, but it was, I knew it was at stake. You know, I knew how to be successful. And so in that sense it was, it was almost like I was competing with myself more than I was competing with anyone else, even though I might have been more competitive than I am now in some ways. Whereas now, like you were saying, like, there are just like, so, so many different ways to determine what success means and no one to tell you which of those is actually right. You know, like, I meet some authors who are obsessed with like getting awards or getting residencies, and I meet other authors who are obsessed with hitting lists or other authors who, you know, want to do a book a year. And it's just like all of them are sort of using these different standards to calculate how to have this as a career. And there's nothing to say that all of those aren't right. But I think for me, I'm always now looking for like, okay, what's the right way? You know, and the right way, sometimes the safest way, the surest way is like, you got to do everything. You, you have to get everything, you know, you have to get the most sales, the biggest deal. All these things that are really, really, really, really hard to achieve after getting a book deal, which is really, really, really hard to achieve. So it just feels much more intense now, I guess. And I'm, I am more comparison prone, but also I'm more invested.

[Becca Freeman]

I think that the other aspect that's really unique to publishing and a few adjacent fields as well is that there's an external element of other people speculating on how good or how successful you are that doesn't exist in other industries. You know, like maybe, yeah, maybe somebody is, has a really strong opinion on who the best plumber is in a certain metro area on Yelp or something. But, you know, there's not news media dedicated to covering the success of this career field. Like, nobody outside of your company or your field. Like, I don't Know that like many people care how good a like senior account manager you are or something, you know, and like versus in writing and I think also, you know, adjacently in acting, in music, in. In kind of any of these like creative careers where you're producing something, in art where you're producing something for external consumption. Like people have an opinion on it and it's not people directly in your community. Like, you know, at a school, I'm sure there's like, yes, this is the better fourth grade teacher. I actually specifically remember that for fourth grade teachers at my elementary school. But it's not like somebody in a state you don't live in online has an opinion about who's the best fourth grade teacher at your school system.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right. They're also not like, you know, Mrs. Thompson has been promoted in a significant raise. You know, like the deal in a very good promotion. Like it's not. There's literally a ranking. Like there's literally for anyone who doesn't know, publishers marketplace announcements are how people announce their book deals. And you can in those deals put like in a significant deal, which I think significant deal is 5. 500?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, they have like a.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or more major, major deal is 500.

[Becca Freeman]

They have like a coded language of like nice means. This very nice means that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good means that that is so publishing, by the way, that there is like a, a secret language that actually is a very direct meaning that you can Google. But no one is using the, the specific like actual words. It's like all of publishing is really a buy and fuck. And what you were saying about the creativity of it all and what I always try to explain to Jake is like, yes, this is a job, but also it is so much me, you know, like the book I am writing is a part of me and if it is rejected on a wide national scale, it feels much more intense than not getting a promotion, you know, or not getting a certain raise. It's something much bigger that I never experienced in freelancing certainly, and never in like working at a website either. Okay. Something I really want to ask you is how you feel about the concept of a work nemesis, Like a career nemesis, which I think is an idea that has been floating around the Internet for a few years now.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, when I worked in marketing, I specifically remember I had a deep work nemesis. I won't say her name because I don't know, I don't think our community is going to like dox her, like write her mean messages, but like just for her anonymity. She didn't she doesn't need to be brought up. But yes. Oh, my gosh, it's such a work nemesis. And I just feel like we were in different departments and we were often on different sides of the same issue. And oh, my gosh, she was the work nemesis. I think in some ways, socially, it's fun to have a work nemesis, because if you asked me about the ins and outs of many of my friends jobs, I could not tell you beyond, like, the top line Elizabeth sells diabetes drugs. But could I tell you all about her work nemesis and what they've done to her? Oh, my God. Yeah. So I think, like, it is a way to bond with people outside of your company about your job.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. It's like a social bonding thing, for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And also within the company and you have, like, your work friends. What about in publishing?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, so I. I don't at least yet have a author nemesis. I don't think maybe I'm somebody's author nemesis. But I alluded to this earlier. I said this earlier. I, like, lost my mind after my book came out. Like, the uncertainty undid me and I had such high expectations and I really wanted to hit specifically the New York Times bestseller list, but if nothing else, the USA Today bestseller list. And I remember so specifically Josie Silver, who wrote One Day in December, which is a book I loved and I admire so much, had a book coming out around the same time as me. And it was a holiday book and it was set in New York. You can picture the COVID I can't think of the name of it. Was it called Christmas in New York? I don't know. But I remember tracking that book with such vigor. And, like, watching on Goodreads, there's like, it's like eight buttons down. You can, like, find this, like, statistics tab. And I was like, are more people adding her book to be read? Does she have more ratings? Like, I didn't read the book. It could be the best book in the world. I have no idea. And it had nothing to do with that. But I did lose my mind. She has no idea who I am. I wasn't, like, spiteful about it. I wasn't like, I hope she fails, but I was just, like, using her as a measuring stick.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

And then, you know, like, I look at somebody like Emily Henry, who is like my North Star. I think. I think she's so funny. I think she writes this type of book that I love to read, but I don't feel, like, competitive or jealous or negative towards her in any way. And I'm not comparing myself to her really either. I don't think it's more like admiration. So I feel like in order to truly have, like, a publishing work nemesis, they would need to wrong me in some way. Do you. Do you got what I mean?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. No, I totally get it. I totally get it. I think, like, for me, that is what comparison feels like. It's never malicious. It's always like, I want everyone to succeed and be happy, but I also would like to be up there with people, and if I'm not, clearly I'm doing something wrong. Oh, my God. The way. I mean, you know about a lot of these, but, like, if there's a book that comes on my radar or an author that I'm like, oh, I wish I was that, or I wish I was doing that, or, why didn't I get that? Oh, I fixate. I fixate. I check the numbers, I check the lists. I become a monster. And in my own head.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you consider them your nemesis?

[Olivia Mentor]

No.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, it's usually people where I'm like.

[Becca Freeman]

You'Re like, running a. You're running a track meet, and they're like, the person in the next lane.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right? It's like. It's like there's. There's no comparison. It's just. I think all of publishing is just this fixation on these details that you think, like, Amazon rankings or. Which change, like, hour to hour. I think I think, like.

[Becca Freeman]

Or even shorter increments. I don't know if that's minute to.

[Olivia Mentor]

Minute, like, just refreshing, which I don't even. Anyway, you find people and you think, like, for some reason, there's something about their book or them that just makes you think, this is a good comparison point, even if it's not. And then you use it.

[Becca Freeman]

Is there anyone realistic or not that you're willing to share that you have gotten into a ghost battle with?

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, my gosh. I'm trying to think, to be totally transparent. I have absolutely compared everything about my career to yours many, many times. Not that you are my nemesis, but, I mean, if we're being totally honest here, which is the point.

[Becca Freeman]

I was really surprised by this when I read your thoughts in the outline. Less so about the podcast, because I know how when you started the podcast, you were like a jittery baby. What type of animal is really, like, jittery? Like, chihuahua.

[Olivia Mentor]

You're just calling me a jittery baby. That's good, too.

[Becca Freeman]

No, but, like, I'm like a chihuahua. That's, like, scared and shaking and So I think I probably intuited some of that, but more broadly, I was really surprised and I think, and I. I'm not saying this to, like, make myself out to be like a noble or good person, but I think for me, so much of my comparison and so much of my competitiveness is reserved for people I don't know, because the minute I know somebody, I feel like I just have so much of a clearer picture into any of the downsides or struggles that, you know, wouldn't usually show up in like a flashy author interview or on social media. And I'm like, oh my gosh, like, they've worked so hard for this. They. They absolutely deserve this. So I'm like, in a battle with Josie Silver, who doesn't know I exist, and who I, I bet is really lovely. And I would like a lot.

[Olivia Mentor]

To be clear, I'm not in a battle with you.

[Becca Freeman]

No, no, no, tell me, tell me more. I'm like, jumping ahead because I've read some of this on the outline and I really admire your openness about this. And I don't judge any of this whatsoever.

[Olivia Mentor]

Totally, yeah. I mean, well, here's the thing. It's like, when it comes to comparison, like I was just saying, it is never that I don't want something for someone else, like, especially you, especially people I know, especially my friends. But I think with us, and we can talk about the podcast stuff in a minute, but with book stuff, for me, I think it's hard because as we've said, we're always looking for these comparison points. Right? And so when you and I have similar platforms, we have a podcast that we share, even though this isn't like a one to one comparison, it feels like the easiest point where I can be like, well, if Becca did this, then, you know, I should do it too. And if I can't do it, for example, you have a lot of foreign deals and actually such a bad influence is being translated into Ukrainian.

[Becca Freeman]

My Ukrainian deal got canceled, which, I mean, God bless them that they're still publishing books in the middle of a war. Like, that's a testament to art.

[Olivia Mentor]

But yes. Anyway, that's it. And Little One is still on submission in the uk. And honestly, who even knows what will happen there? But like, when there are these things that you have achieved so successfully and then I haven't, of course, I would be a liar if I didn't say that I felt some type of way about that. And it's never because you don't deserve it. Of course you Do I want that for you? But I'm like, okay, well, what's wrong with me that I didn't. Oh, interesting. And that's tough sometimes. But you don't experience this.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, no, I. I guess. And maybe this is wrong, but I think of us, even though we're both writing books and in publishing, I think of our Venn diagram of our readers, that middle portion as being bad on paper listeners who I think would generally want to support both of us equally. And it's not like we're putting out so many books a year that they're like, I can only afford one. And if you can, that's totally fine. I don't hold that against anyone. But then outside of it, I'm like, I think that our ideal demo is generally pretty different just because your writing is much more literary than mine. And then also, you're writing kind of, like, more suspenseful books or potentially. Your first book was, like, marketed as a thriller, and mine is, like, it's not romance, but it's much more commercial, and it's much more like. It just feels like a different type of reader. And I know that readers read many different things, but I don't almost think of us as, like. I'm almost like, oh, well, it's completely different.

[Olivia Mentor]

Because that's smart.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

See, that's smart. And I do know that, too. But I think, to me, it just feels natural. It just feels baked into the publishing process that I would make that comparison. I knew going into selling my second book to a big five, I was like, do not compare your experience to Becca's Olivia. Please don't do that. And I did. And then when it wasn't exactly the same, even though it was great in its own way, I don't know. That's just the truth. I hope you don't think that it. It's like, it's. It's never negative towards you. It's all my own insecurity. But I figured people would wonder, yeah. Like, oh, did they ever do that? Personally, I do. What about with the podcast? Like, do you feel ever competitive or, like, it's. I don't know. I never feel that way. But I had a different experience coming into this.

[Becca Freeman]

No. I can think of two instances where I felt. In one case, I think jealous is the right word, and then the other one, I don't quite know if it's the right word, but I'm jealous that you've finished your second book. Because I've had such a hard time with Mine, but I'm not like, that's, like, comparing apples and oranges.

[Olivia Mentor]

Of like. Of course, yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

It's not as if it's like, Olivia should have done that slower. And it's like, we're writing different books, so it's not necessarily something that one could equate. I'm just like, oh, wow, it's gonna feel so good when I get there. And, like, Olivia's already got there. So, like, in that way, I think I felt jealousy. But again, it's totally. It's, like, irrational. So it's like, I can look at it and I'm not like, I don't know. And then the other one is like, sometimes I will read your substack essays, and they're so wonderful. And I'm like, I could never write like that. And I. Like, I don't actually. I mean, maybe it's jealousy, but, like, it's almost admiration more than that, where I'm like, oh, my gosh. Your writing of personal essays and being able to take a feeling or topic and make it universally relatable, or even if it's not relatable, making people understand what you're feeling, I think is so. And doing it in a beautiful way is so lovely. And I think a skill that I don't possess currently. And so sometimes I'll read them and it strikes as jealousy, but I think it's admiration. Like, it's like, wow, she's so good at that.

[Olivia Mentor]

And, like, that's a good way to frame it. You know, I think, like, some of these feelings, I always think of them, like, as surface, like, gut. Like, reactions that are very shallow. And, like, sometimes this, like, I should have had foreign deal. Why don't I have Whatever. It's very shallow, but, like, the deeper thing is actually maybe something else. And like you were saying, it's interesting to think, like, oh, she's there. I can't wait to be there. That's kind of how I feel about a foreign deal. Like, I can't wait to one day be published in the uk and, like, I wish it was now, but it's not. But, I mean, the substack thing is also interesting because I have definitely compared my substack to yours, and I feel like I'm not growing as quickly. And, like, am I doing something wrong? And, like, Beck is killing and, like, oh, should I be doing more content in this way? And it's just a good reminder that, like, you know, everyone's doing their own thing and has their own readers and their own Audience, but the numbers of it all, I think I struggle with sometimes. But anyway, thanks for saying those nice things.

[Becca Freeman]

Of course I believe them. Yeah, I think because I'm thinking about Grace just went on this wonderful looking creativity retreat in the south of France. And I think with friends, it doesn't manifest really as jealousy where I'm like, I'm like, oh, I would love to do that. And I'm like, oh, how cool for her. Or it does come out as admiration more. Or like, I want you to have finished your book and I think your personal essays are great and I'm so glad Grace had a good time on that. And I do think that I'm a really petty person towards people I don't know, but I am a very loyal person. And so I think that I direct it all outwards to people I don't know and who definitely probably don't deserve it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think that's healthy. I mean, they'll never know. Yeah. Well, I should say that these feelings, like, jealousy comparison, all of that, it's always something that's happening internally. I hope you know, it's never. I'm like, wow, wishing for failure for anyone. I only want good things for people, and especially you. So thank you.

[Becca Freeman]

How do you feel about the podcast, though? We haven't really talked about that.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, I think for me it was. I was coming into this situation where I was like, oh, obviously people are gonna compare me to Grace. What else would they do? Like, and I read comments that were like, oh, I don't like Olivia. This is the worst. Or oh, I'm so glad it's Olivia. And so I knew that people would be like, how does Olivia compare to Grace? I knew that Grace had a huge following. I knew that you guys had a dynamic. And I was like, they're gonna compare that. And so then it makes, you know, it makes me think about that. But like you were saying, I mean, I, I think I was very scared and I feel a lot more confident now in general in all things. Cause I think I know myself a lot better.

[Becca Freeman]

And I mean, it was very. It was like a quick transition, but like, you just feel more easeful about how you're just like showing up to a recording.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. I feel much more comfortable and confident in all things in the podcast and also like, just in my life and my career. Like, I feel. I don't know. The podcast found me in an odd time. I think I was doing like 12 jobs. I had no idea where my career was going. And I don't Know, it was this weird kind of, like, serendipity thing where I was like, my career is just aligning itself towards books and reading and writing. And then the podcast came along, and it was kind of like this sign, and now it just feels all aligned, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

It's so bizarre, like, crazy how little thought went into this. No offense, but it was like Grace was leaving the podcast, and we were trying to think of who should be the next host. And Grace was like, I'll help you. I'll help you think about it. And I didn't really have any strong ideas. Like, one person I thought of was Kate Spencer, who was, at the time co hosting Forever 35 and. But, you know, she was happy doing that. I was like, oh, that doesn't make sense. And like, I. I truly didn't really have any ideas. And Grace said, what about Olivia? Because you'd come on the podcast, I think, that fall, and it was such a fun episode to record. And it was such a fun episode that listeners really liked it. And I was like, oh, that's a great idea. I had never met you in person. I did no due diligence. I was not like, this is a trial period to see how. I was just like, do you want to co host this podcast? And I'm like, that it's worked out so well.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm like, yeah, there was no trial period. And in fact, I was kind of like, can I quit after a year? Because I was like, what am I just locked in for life for this thing where people might hate me? I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

No, truly, like, it ended up being such a good thing, but it, like, was. It was just like, oh, yeah, that's a good idea. Let's go. Like, I don't. Like, I could have not. This isn't a reflection on you, but I'm like, I could have. Being so thoughtless. I could have, like, easily tanked this thing and been like, it could have.

[Olivia Mentor]

It could have gone south.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Like, I wasn't like, let's record an episode together and see how it goes.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, literally, there was no test episode at all, which is probably why I was so nervous. I was just like, I'm here, I'm here. I think that's.

[Becca Freeman]

That is very me, though. Like, I can be quite impulsive about things that I feel strongly. I'm just lucky that they don't bite me in the ass more often.

[Olivia Mentor]

It worked out.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm so glad, to be clear. I'm so glad that you're the co host and it has gone so well, and I feel like after. Even just after the first month, I feel like you stopped being a shaky Chihuahua.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't bring myself to listen back to my.

[Becca Freeman]

I just remember the first episode sitting across from you, we recorded at my dining room table, and you were like. The fear in your eyes was just like. If it had color, there was, like an aura of it around you.

[Olivia Mentor]

It was. I mean, it's a really. When you've never done this before, other than interviews, it's a totally, like. It really does take developing a level of comfort and confidence. And I think I had to, like, find it's a lot in some ways, like, writing, like, the more you do it, the more confident you feel, and in some ways, the less that you compare yourself to anyone. Not to bring it full circle, but.

[Becca Freeman]

And it's also like, I think with podcasting, not that any individual episode doesn't matter, but the more episodes you bank, the less important one individual episode becomes. And you're not like, oh, people are gonna, like, never listen to this again after this episode that they didn't enjoy as much as others.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. You become a lot better at spotting the things that you actually need to edit out and the things where you just maybe could have said it in a slightly better way. Yeah, no, it's been great anyway. Oh, well, maybe we'll end. We'll end on a positive note. Okay. With one question we didn't get to. This is running. This is a really chatty episode. I know some people like them, but I have appreciated this conversation so much. But when it comes to your career or your life even, do you have any goals around how you deal with jealousy or comparison or competitiveness?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I think my biggest goal is to go easier on myself.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a good one.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? I feel like we are like the two sides of the same coin.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know. I really hope people don't think I'm an asshole for saying I compare myself and I get jealous. But, I mean, it's just.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like, if anything, like, I'm coming off as a liar or, like, disingenuous and, like, I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I mean, your truth is your truth. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Same question back to you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I think I just want to lean into just focusing on myself and my work. And one of the things I try to. I put on my bulletin board is that comparison is not creative. And I think that anytime I'm focused on comparing myself to you or to other authors or to anyone, I'm missing out on an opportunity to get better at writing and to actually enjoy my life and like myself and like, like, you know, the world I have built, which I genuinely really love. So I just want to remember that more.

[Becca Freeman]

I think that's wonderful.

[Olivia Mentor]

All right, well, let's get out of this discussion and into a quick ad break and some M matter. This episode is sponsored by Quints. I have to once again sing the praises of this strapless linen maxi dress that I got from Quint earlier this summer. It is striped, it has pockets. It fits perfectly. I wore it to a pool party and I felt better than I have in months, probably. And I didn't even sweat that much. So it was really just the nicest fabric. Quince nails it with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished, perfect for layering and mixing. Their styles are so versatile, and I really do find myself reaching for pieces like that strapless linen dress again and again.

[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

Can I go first for obsessions? Because I'm really excited about this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Please do.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so when we were in Maine for the lobster roll off, we got this new board game, ish, called Hues and Q's. Have you ever heard of it?

[Olivia Mentor]

I have not.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so it's a game that you can play with a lot of people. Like, I think maybe the max is 11. So it's a. It's fun for a big group. And it's this huge board and it basically has a color spectrum on it divided into little squares. Like, probably I'm so bad at estimating like 200 squares of, like, different variations of colors. And so you pick a card and you have to describe the color using one word. And people have to guess which color you're talking about. And then you get a second Round where you get to give a two word clue and then people get a second guess of what color you're talking about. This scratched an itch for me. Like, it was.

[Olivia Mentor]

I just blacked out. I'm gonna be honest. Wait, there's a lot of numbers in colors. Okay, go on. It scratched an itch for you?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Like, it was. First of all, it's very pretty. I really like thinking about colors and it was really fun. You can't repeat the same clues. So the clues were. So they got so weird. We were having a blast with this. And it was a game that I don't think I've seen anywhere before.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have not either. I have not heard of this. I'll take your word for it.

[Becca Freeman]

We bought it because the last time I was in Maine, there was this rainy day and we were at a brewery and there was this table with a bunch of people playing this. And they looked like they were having the best time ever. Like, it looked like a commercial. They were like cheering. They were having so much fun. And we were like, we gotta find out what this is. And I, after playing it, I'm like, yeah, it is really fun.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

It was not fun for my friend Peter, who is colorblind. Um, so he had to be on a team with somebody.

[Olivia Mentor]

That does seem like it would change things.

[Becca Freeman]

Wasn't a good game for him.

[Olivia Mentor]

No.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, tell me yours. What are you obsessed with?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm obsessed with ebay. I have just discovered it for the first time, kind of. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I've never really shopped there and I've just had the best time looking up, like, vintage clothes, weird jewelry, old items. Also not even shopping related. But I've gotten into a habit of looking up old toys I used to have as like a nostalgia bomb.

[Becca Freeman]

To buy it or just to see?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, no, just to see it. Like, I. I kept thinking about this little tykes blue wood paneled van that I had growing up. Like, it was just in my brain. And I googled it. Turns out in mint condition, there were $600, first of all. And also I remembered, like, it had a little gas station thing where you put in the gas. And it had like a little plastic phone. And I remembered that phone and like the. The plastic of that phone. It's so weird. It. It was just the most time travel y experience. And so then I was like, jake, tell me your favorite toy as a kid. And then I googled it and he was like, oh, my God, I haven't seen that in so long. Anyway, I Highly suggest this as a hobby instead of scrolling on social media.

[Becca Freeman]

To bring it back to board games. I would not mind having and playing the original Dream Phone.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, you can definitely find it.

[Becca Freeman]

Did you. Were you the right age for Dream Phone?

[Olivia Mentor]

No.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

But you could find it and then I could know what it is.

[Becca Freeman]

It's.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'll look it up.

[Becca Freeman]

It is so wildly, like, gendered in a way. It's like you have. You have to guess who has a crush on you and there's all these boys and you, like, call them and, like, get clues and they all have, like. You have, like, trading cards of hot boys and, like, some of them aren't cute and you're like, oh, I don't want it to be him.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow. It sounds kind of like in conjunction with Pretty Pretty Princess with the jewelry. Is that what it's called?

[Becca Freeman]

Pretty Pretty Princess. I love that game.

[Olivia Mentor]

Me too. So much.

[Becca Freeman]

What's your best ebay purchase that you've made so far? Not browse purchase.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's so many random things. I got a really cool beaded necklace that was only like $20. It said vintage. Who knows when it's from? But it's just this really strange looking floral beaded necklace. I haven't worn it yet, but I'll share it on Instagram when I do, probably, but I just. It was a deal and it came. This is really unsettling. I. I opened the package and it was wrapped in a paper towel, which for some reason, that was so gross.

[Becca Freeman]

And I don't know why.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know. It was so weirdly intimate to, like, a paper towel from someone else's home. Unused, of course. Just felt very weird. It looked untainted, but I don't know. Anyway, I like the necklace, so can't wait to see it. What have you read?

[Becca Freeman]

I've read nothing. It's been a heat wave. I've been traveling. I've read nothing. I've watched a decent amount of Barbecue Brawl. Still an obsession, if anyone was wondering. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of seasons. There's six seasons. We'll be in this for a while.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, got it.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? What have you read?

[Olivia Mentor]

I read Greenwich by Kate Broad, which was recommended by Kristin L. Berry, who came on the podcast. I loved this book, like, so much, but I read it and I was like, oh, this will be a divisive one. Oh, it's like, oh, people, this will ruffle some feathers. But I absolutely loved it. You say most unlikable character I've read in a while.

[Becca Freeman]

What about it is divisive without spoiling it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. So I'll, I'll do the quick plot summary. So it is about a 17 year old girl who goes to stay with her very wealthy aunt and uncle in Greenwich, Connecticut. And they have, I think a three year old daughter and a nanny who is Black. And this 17 year old ends up falling in love with the nanny.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And so the whole book you're reading and you just the feelings of dread that this book produced in my body. Like I was like, oh no, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no. But in such a page turning kind of horrible. But entertaining is not the right word. It was just like I could not stop reading it. I loved the writing style, but this will not be for everyone. But I absolutely loved this. And there are some controversial things about race and just deeply flawed characters that I think people would find offensive. But as a character study, as a story, I just found it like great. That's all I've read.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, well, maybe if people are looking to read something with us, you can pick up our August book club pick, which is the Night and the Moth by Rachel Gilligan. I think this is a little like oddball choice for us, which I'm excited about. It's a Romantasy book and we haven't done anything fantasy in a long time, I think since Fourth Wing. And this is about a female prophetess who all of her sister prophetesses start to go missing and she goes on this quest to discover what's happening to them with the help of this heretical knight who doesn't believe in the gods or in her abilities to see prophecies. I've read a decent amount of Romantasy and this just struck me as so different than any of the others that I've read. It just, it felt really like moody and atmospheric and I think for transitioning into fall, Olivia's like already wanting cozy and candles. Like I think this is the vibe, so I'm very excited. It's also less spicy than say Fourth Wing, but there is a great romance in there as well. I'm so excited to discuss it with everyone, but I'm specifically very excited to see what Olivia thinks of this.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't wait. If you want to talk about any of this with us, you can join us in the Facebook group under batonpaper Podcast or in the Geneva group under Baton Paper Podcast. We are also on Instagram @batonpaper podcast and I am on Instagram and substack.

[Becca Freeman]

At Olivia Mentor and I am on Instagram @beccam freeman and on [e-mail] and we would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. And we will see you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.

[Becca Freeman]

Bye.