Deep Cuts Book Club

Summary

Bad On Paper – Deep Cuts Book Club Summary

Episode Release Date: March 26, 2025

In this engaging episode of Bad On Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into a comprehensive discussion of Holly Brickley's novel, "Deep Cuts". Skipping over the introductory segments and advertisements, the hosts provide insightful commentary, personal anecdotes, and critical analysis, making this summary perfect for both fans and newcomers alike.

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1. Personal Updates: Highs and Lows

Olivia kicks off the episode by sharing her current endeavors:

"My high is that I just have a lot going on, and it's all great things... I'm working on revisions. I'm drafting at the same time." (01:03)

Becca responds enthusiastically about her book draft:

"I'm feeling so good about my book draft that I'm working on. I'm feeling so good that I'm going on this trip soon." (05:16)

Amidst their successes, Olivia also opens up about her emotional challenges:

"Last week, I became enamored with two eagles named Jackie and Shadow... Turns out the chick did die." (07:52)

Becca empathizes and shares her own struggles with character development in her writing:

"In my revision, I got to this chapter, and I have to rename a character... I'm having to rename this character." (11:52)

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2. Book Discussion: "Deep Cuts"

Book Summary

Becca provides an overview of "Deep Cuts":

"Deep Cuts is about Percy and Jo, who meet as college students at UC Berkeley in the year 2000... they grapple with if they can be together romantically, if they can work together musically, or none of the above." (18:06)

Characters Analysis

The hosts delve deep into character dynamics, particularly focusing on Percy, the protagonist:

Olivia: "I loved the character of Percy so much more than I loved their relationship. She is just such a sharply drawn character... real and relatable." (19:01)

Becca highlights Percy's nuanced sexual and dating history:

"Percy comes from a very normal family... she had a very compelling and interesting sexual and dating history that felt really nuanced and real." (30:15)

Themes and Plot Points

The discussion touches on significant events that shape Percy's character, such as her experience with sexual assault and the impact of 9/11:

Becca: "Percy holds so much uncertainty around it afterwards... it wasn’t central to the plot, but it deepens her character." (34:10)

Olivia: "I think it mirrors her songwriting experience with Jo... she has trouble owning her own anger about it." (36:40)

They also explore the representation of music as a central theme:

Olivia: "It's about the emotional experience of feeling so connected to certain songs, not about the songs themselves." (21:54)

Ending Analysis

The hosts express mixed feelings about the book's conclusion:

Becca: "I kept rooting for them to be together less and less in every subsequent section." (45:17)

Olivia: "I felt perplexed by the ending... I'm confident they will not stay together." (55:43)

They debate whether the ending aligned with the book's literary romance elements, discussing its departure from conventional romance tropes.

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3. Literary Romance Discussion

Becca and Olivia engage in a thoughtful conversation about what defines a literary romance:

Olivia: "I think it's mostly about language and the focus on character rather than the stakes or, like, the tension." (61:09)

Becca: "I think it's a language, I think it's a lack of tropiness... an acknowledgement of the darker parts of the world of relationships." (61:12)

They cite examples of literary romances, mentioning authors like Sally Rooney and discussing the balance between character depth and romantic plotlines.

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4. Adaptation News

Exciting news is shared about the adaptation of "Deep Cuts":

Becca: "A24 is adapting this into a TV series or a movie. Saoirse Ronan and Austin Butler are playing Percy and Jo." (64:44)

The hosts speculate on casting choices and potential portrayals:

Olivia: "I think I can see [Saoirse Ronan] for this role more than I can see Austin Butler." (65:06)

They express enthusiasm and curiosity about how the book's nuanced characters will translate to the screen.

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5. Book Club Pick for April

Looking ahead, Olivia introduces the next book club selection:

"For April, we are going to read 'Wild Dark Shore' by Charlotte McConaughey... it's about the Salt family... there's a woman who washes ashore, and the mystery unfolds." (76:26)

Becca shares her anticipation and willingness to explore new genres:

"I'm excited to go outside my comfort zone and hopefully find a sliver of our Venn diagram." (77:35)

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter offer a blend of personal insights and critical analysis, making their discussion of "Deep Cuts" both relatable and intellectually stimulating. Their exploration of complex characters, thematic depth, and the intricacies of literary romance provides listeners with a rich understanding of the novel's strengths and nuances. Whether you're a fan of the book or considering it for your next read, this episode delivers valuable perspectives and thoughtful commentary.

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Notable Quotes:

• Olivia on balancing creative projects:
  "I'm working on revisions. I'm drafting at the same time. Oh, wow. I actually didn't know if that was possible, but I'm trying to maintain both things." (01:03)

• Becca on character naming challenges:
  "I just feel it in my heart that this character needs to be renamed... I feel like I am solving, like, a calculus equation on one of those huge boards." (12:05)

• Olivia on Percy's relationship with music:
  "Percy's relationship to music... it really does feel like when you're growing up... it just means your deep love for something matters." (28:13)

• Becca on the portrayal of friendship:
  "The portrayal of that type of friendship... just forgive yourself. It's too exhausting not to." (47:35)

• Olivia on literary romance elements:
  "I think it's mostly about language and the focus on character rather than the stakes or the tension." (61:09)

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This summary captures the essence of the "Deep Cuts Book Club" episode, highlighting the hosts' discussions, key insights, and memorable moments. For a more detailed exploration, tuning into the full episode is highly recommended.

Transcript

[Olivia Mentor]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And today we have our March Book Club episode. We are going to be discussing Deep Cuts by Holly Brickley.

[Becca Freeman]

We haven't talked about this. I think you just finished this, so I'm very excited to hear your thoughts, because I think this is one of my favorite books of the year. I read it last year, but I reread it this year, so I'm counting it in this year.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm really looking forward to talking about it, especially on the heels of our music episode. My life has been so full of music with this book and that episode and all of the random rabbit holes that sent my brain down, and it's. It's been a joy. So I'm really excited to talk about it with you.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, before we get into that, tell me your high from this week.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that I just have a lot going on, and it's all great things. Like, I feel like my brain is firing on every creative cylinder that it has. Maybe the music is part of that. But I'm working on revisions. I'm drafting at the same time. Oh, wow. I actually didn't know if that was possible, but I'm trying to maintain both things. We'll see if it.

[Becca Freeman]

How are you doing that? Like, do you. One in the morning and one in the afternoon? Or one day? This one day that I've basically been.

[Olivia Mentor]

Doing, like, whatever I have the most time for. So I prioritize the revisions first just because I have to, and then if I still feel inspired or I have time, I write, like, 500 words. Like, I was doing about a thousand a day, and I cut it back. So it seems manageable. Like, I don't want to abandon it altogether because, as you know, it's just so hard to give back to something once you put it aside. So I don't know that's what I'm doing so far. We'll see if it works. It's two very different parts of your brain, you know? So I'm doing that, and then I also am teaching this. As you listen to this, I will be midway through my writing workshop at this high school that I'm doing, and I am so nervous and excited. But as I prep for it, I'm just getting really anxious.

[Becca Freeman]

I didn't realize that it was a workshop. I was kind of picturing it more like a guidance counselor thing where you were just available to talk to kids who were interested in writing, but you're actually doing a Full course.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's somewhere in between, I think. So I'm there for five days. I sort of have six different classes. So it's like I'm going to be repeating the same stuff a lot. But my whole goal is just kind of teach them the value in getting started and that it doesn't really matter how you get started as long as you do. Because I think there's so much pressure with writing. Like, I have to start out with an outline. I have to start out with a perfect idea, a perfect sentence. So I don't know. I really wish I had this. As a high school student, I'll be.

[Becca Freeman]

Very curious if high schoolers have those same hangups because I think that I was probably a lot more open as a high schooler than I was starting as an adult.

[Olivia Mentor]

Really?

[Becca Freeman]

Maybe.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, Maybe they'll surprise me. I don't know. I'm excited, though, and scared and nervous. But it's been a lot of, like, standing in my office, just like rehearsing things, like driving to places, like, talking out loud, just trying to, like, talk through the points. So I've practiced a bit. But also I'm like, what do they call me? What do I refer to myself as? Am I gonna be standing in front of them the whole time? What do I wear? What do I not wear?

[Becca Freeman]

I think you're definitely a first name teacher. There's so much that just really sets you up as a cool teacher.

[Olivia Mentor]

I feel like you wear this. I feel so weird.

[Becca Freeman]

To me, this is all informed by 90s television where. Who was the cool teacher in boy meets world?

[Olivia Mentor]

Mr. Turner.

[Becca Freeman]

Mr. Turner. But then Sean lived with him and so they called him by his first name. I think you want to channel him. So if you want to get like a feathered 90s haircut, that could really help.

[Olivia Mentor]

They'd probably love it.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, you're riding a motorcycle. You're wearing stonewashed jeans. I'm picturing you sitting on the front of the desk kind of with like, leaning, but like with one thigh up. And you're kind of like. It's kind of the thinker pose a little bit. And you're just kind of holding court.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Imagine me riding down to Maryland on a motorcycle.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Winnie in the sidecar.

[Olivia Mentor]

There is one thing that is kind of specific that's making me even more nervous, which is that this is an all girls Catholic school.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh.

[Olivia Mentor]

And so my cousin's a teacher there, and she was like, headmistress Sister Patricia doesn't like jeans. And I was like, if there's one thing I'm not going to do, it's anger. Headmistress Sister Patricia.

[Becca Freeman]

No, anger her. You go head to head, come in and be the outside force.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, maybe I'm gonna talk to them about my pre journaling before writing routine. So I hope it kind of inspires them to like, I don't know, just fall in love with the process a little bit.

[Becca Freeman]

I can't wait to hear more.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or ride a motorcycle or get a feathered haircut. We're not either one.

[Becca Freeman]

I can't wait to hear more.

[Olivia Mentor]

What's your high?

[Becca Freeman]

I am feeling really good right now. I. I'm just. I'm feeling so good about my book draft that I'm working on. I'm feeling so good that I'm going on this trip soon. Like, everything just. The weather is starting to turn. Like, I just feel good. I feel like everyone in the world is feeling so stressed and anxious and I feel slightly guilty and privileged to be feeling good. But I'm like, I feel great. On a personal micro level.

[Olivia Mentor]

You gotta embrace it. When. When the joy comes, you gotta be like, all right, I'm ready for you, Truly.

[Becca Freeman]

But if I had to pick a specific high, I would say I'm having a really great week with writer friends. So I've had two things happen. So first, on Sunday, I had this great conversation with a few writer friends about expectations and specifically expectations that we put on ourselves for the reception of our work with books specifically. So what it means for it to be well received or to hit a bestseller list or to sell a certain number of copies and kind of how we think about those things. And I think it's no surprise that I'm very type A and achievement oriented. And so I put so much pressure on myself. And somebody else in this conversation was talking about how they put much less pressure on themselves. And I was like, what's that? Like, explain that to me in detail.

[Olivia Mentor]

Was this someone who has published multiple books or how have they arrived at this mindset? I'm really curious.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm not sure. I think through therapy, to be honest.

[Olivia Mentor]

I recommend.

[Becca Freeman]

So that's part of it. And I just felt so safe having that conversation. And it was so interesting to share our mentalities around it. And then last night I had drinks with Andy Bartz, who's somebody who I know through you, who's a thriller writer. Her next book comes out in May. It's called the Last Ferry Out. But she lives in Brooklyn too. And it was so lovely to. We've known each other through the Internet, through you for a while. And we ran into each other in an event the other week and decided to set up drinks. So, yeah, I. I'm just feeling very in community in a nice way.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that's so nice. I love Andy. I love her. Substack.

[Becca Freeman]

Same. Same.

[Olivia Mentor]

I always learn so much. Like, she just has a way of talking about writing and the industry that's so smart and, like, accessible and comforting and just great.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. What about on the low side?

[Olivia Mentor]

As you know, last week, I became enamored with two eagles named Jackie and Shadow. They had. Well, at the time, I thought they had three chicks. Little did I know I was coming into this in one of the most dramatic moments of this nest that's ever existed. So. So there was a winter storm the night before that. I shared this obsession. One of their three chicks went missing, and everyone was like, where's the chick? Maybe we just can't see it because it's, like, out of view in the nest bowl. And there's a Reddit page that I've now become interested in. So, like, there's a whole community of people. Anyway, turns out the chick did die, so. Did it.

[Becca Freeman]

Did it blow away? How did it die?

[Olivia Mentor]

No one knows for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think maybe it just, like, couldn't deal with the cold or something.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

But then this is really dark. But then Shadow removed it from the nest and at one point started eating it.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, no.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I was like, what have I walked into? Like, I know this is nature. And then at one point, the two remaining chicks were fighting so intensely that I thought one was going to eat the other, which is the thing that happens. And I was like, I thought this was a wholesome thing. And it is dark.

[Becca Freeman]

No, this is the animal kingdom.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know. And you can't control it. Like, you want to stop them, you want to save them. You just can't. So I had to, like, actually pull back a little bit because I was getting way too invested, way too intensely.

[Becca Freeman]

What would you say is your current eagle consumption level?

[Olivia Mentor]

I like to tune in at lunch, see what's going on, see what food they brought back to the nest. Like, they brought a live fish back last time. And I was like, wow, that fish just had quite a day. It was, like, just swimming along and bam. In the air. That's nature chicken, like, twice a day. But sometimes, like, if I'm doing chores around the house, I'll just put it on, like, downstairs, and I'll just walk by the room and I'll be like, oh, okay. What's going on?

[Becca Freeman]

Here's a question I have. Can you only tune in live, or can you scroll back to, like, highlighted moments?

[Olivia Mentor]

You can tune in live. You can also scroll back. But there are so many people, like, invested in this that people will take important moments and, like, share them as their own YouTube video.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or on the Reddit page, people will be like, look at this. Look at Jackie Wing slap this raven or whatever.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So. So you don't miss anything. So, like, that's how I saw the dead chick being removed.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. That's what I was wondering. Cause I was like, I feel like there must be a lot of really boring moments, too. So how do you adjust for tuning in at the right time?

[Olivia Mentor]

There's a lot just of the eagle staring out into the abyss. It's a great deal with it. And the audio is broken, so it's just silent. Anyway. It's really taken some turns in the last week. What is your.

[Becca Freeman]

I was like. I'm trying to, in my head, come up with. What do I say to you to that? Like, I'm like, I'm sorry for your loss. Like, I don't know how to.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't even know what the. It's. Listen, I don't know how to process it either.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I don't know how to. I don't know what the right words are for an eagle you're attached to through the Internet. Dying. There's no card for that.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, there's nothing. Like, it's. It just. It is what it is. But tell me about your low.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my gosh. My low is silly. But it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, it came close to mine.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah, that's true. So I. In my revision, I got to this chapter, and I have to rename a character. Nobody told me to do this, but I just feel it in my heart that this character needs to be renamed. It's a side character. Her name was currently Alexis, but the main character has a sister named Alyssa. And I was like, it's too confusing. They both start with Al. This doesn't make any sense. She needs a different name. I don't know how you feel, but I feel like naming a character is hard in general.

[Olivia Mentor]

Why?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

You just feel like it has to be perfect.

[Becca Freeman]

It's not that it has to be perfect, but it has to feel right.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I tend to just choose one and then just not change it ever, which is kind of helpful because I don't think about it too much. But I see your point. Like, if it doesn't feel right, it kind of throws off the whole character.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And so I'm having to rename this character. And usually when you're naming a character, it's kind of in the flow of you writing a first draft or them first coming in. And this time there's so many constraints because everyone else is already named. It's like a fixed system. And then I need to find the name that works within it. And oh, my God, Olivia. It has been so challenging because I'm like, okay, well, it can't start with any of these letters because these letters are already other characters. There are a bunch of people whose names end in IE sounds, so it can't end in an IE sound. And then it's like, okay, well, where is the character from? Like, what area? So that would inform what type of name they have, like when they were born, et cetera. I just feel like I am solving, like, a calculus equation on one of those huge boards. I have looked up so many lists of names. I have. Oh, my gosh, I'm. Some point. I'm like, ma'am, you're taking this too seriously. Just name her something and move on. But, oh, my gosh, set myself for a loop.

[Olivia Mentor]

This makes me very excited to see what you end up with.

[Becca Freeman]

So I renamed her.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, you chose it.

[Becca Freeman]

I chose it. And then I. Oh, it's also something that I want to have a nickname. Like there needs to be. It needs to be nicknameable.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. That is a lot of criteria.

[Becca Freeman]

It could be like Lex or Lexi. So, yeah, I wanted it to be nicknameable. I've come up with something I like but don't love. Then somebody else suggested something to me and I was like, oh, should I change it again?

[Olivia Mentor]

Does the new suggestion feel more right to you or is it just more fun or.

[Becca Freeman]

It feels more right. It has a letter overlap with another character, but I do feel like it's different enough, sound wise, that it wouldn't be confusing.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think it also depends on how close within the story. Like the two characters with the names that start with the same letter are. If they're interacting a lot.

[Becca Freeman]

They're not interacting, but they are. The other one is mentioned in the scene where the character I'm trying to rename appears. So, yeah, I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

All right.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

In the Christmas Orphans Club, did you choose the names? Do they always stay the same or did you go through something similar to this at some point?

[Becca Freeman]

No, the name stayed the same and the names I don't know. They just. They felt right right away.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

This character in particular in this book has had about five different names because this character has changed a bunch of times in terms of who they are. Like, they've always served the same purpose, but the type of person they are has changed a lot through drafts. And so this person has already had one two. This is their fourth name.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow. You really have to go through drafts with a fine tooth comb then, because it's so easy to get them switched or to accidentally type the wrong one.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I had this with another character too, that I needed to change their name in this book in an earlier draft. And yeah, I feel like once you get used to a name too, it's really hard to change it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Because it's like in your head. That's how you think of the whole book.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Anyway, I have confidence you will find the right one.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. See, you have much better words of wisdom for my singular and not that low. Low.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I have more of a relation to it, you know.

[Becca Freeman]

Sure.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also write, whereas you have never experienced keeping close watch on a live cam of a bald eagle nest, which is fair, I don't expect that from anyone.

[Becca Freeman]

I've never experienced that type of loss before.

[Olivia Mentor]

Luckily, I have my my comrades in the Jackie and Shadow Reddit group. Not that I post, but I'm just creeping.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, let's take an ad break and let's get into this book.

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by macmillan Audiobooks. I personally could not be more excited to be here today with the chance to formally, officially gush even more about one of my very favorite books of this year and possibly all time, Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey. And spoiler, it is also going to be our April book club pick. And so this means I will be rereading it soon. And this time I will do so with my ears. The audiobook features a full cast, and I am actually kind of like giddy to hear the characters that I grew to love so much come to life again via audio. And if you haven't heard about this book already, somehow, for me, if you've tuned me out, that's fair. Here is a plot summary. The story centers around the Salt family, who are the caretakers of a research station on a remote island near Antarctica. When a woman washes to shore, the family is tasked with nursing her back to health, and the mystery about who she is and why she is there starts to unfold.

[Becca Freeman]

And if you're looking for another great audiobook to Queue up. Consider the Sirens by Amelia Hart. So this is the author who wrote the runaway New York Times bestseller Wayward, which I didn't check out, but it makes me really curious about this one. So this story features multiple timelines and points of view, which makes for a super engaging audio experience. The book highlights an interesting period of history when more than 800 ships carried convicts from Great Britain to Australia. But it's also more than just historical fiction. This is a sister story. There are mermaids. There's a bonus conversation at the end with some tidbits about research. So basically, if you're looking for an audiobook with a little bit of everything and great accents, which we cannot underestimate with audiobooks, the Sirens might be for you.

[Olivia Mentor]

You can download the audiobooks for both Wild Dark Shore and the Sirens wherever audiobooks are sold.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, enough about those books. Let's get into this book. So, quick summary. Deep Cuts is about Percy and Jo, who meet as college students at UC Berkeley in the year 2000 and bond over their shared love of music. Jo is a musician and Percy is a music lover with no discernible musical talent of her own. So the book follows the two as they come in and out of each other's lives over the next eight years as Jo goes on to become a semi famous indie musician and Percy gets her MFA and then ultimately lands working at a marketing agency as they grapple with if they can be together romantically, if they can work together musically, or none of the above. Olivia, I'm not overstating this, but like, I've been waiting with bated breath to hear what you think about this book, because it feels like an Olivia book. But I'm not sure because you're not really a romance person. So I'm very curious to hear where you netted out.

[Olivia Mentor]

I loved it.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I loved it. It was a joy from start to finish.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh good.

[Olivia Mentor]

I loved it.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh good.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, it was great.

[Becca Freeman]

So do you have any nostalgia for this era? Like, do you think it's necessary to have nostalgia for this era to enjoy the book? Because that was one of my hesitations with it for you, where it was like in the year 2000, you would be eight.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things that I wasn't sure about going into this book was if you think about a book where it has songs listed on the COVID you know that songs are going to come up throughout the book. You kind of think like it's immediately going to alienate someone because if you're a 50 year old reading this book, I don't know if any of the references would really. Or maybe they would, I'm not sure. But having read it and not necessarily being in my 20s, in the early 2000s, I was so shocked by how much still felt nostalgic to me. I think part of it is that, like, a lot of the bands and music still were things I listened to. For example, in high school, I was very obsessed with Neutral Milk Hotel. Is this just a rite of, like, indie musician obsession passage? I think probably. I loved the Decemberists. It also reminded me that Heartbeats, which is one of my favorite songs, was not originally by Jose Gonzalez. It was by this other Swedish band, I think. But there were just all these moments, like, I love Sam Cooke, I love Joni Mitchell. Like, it just. It still managed to feel universal, which I think is such an impressive feat from the author. So, yeah, like, it still did feel very nostalgic to me, even though not necessarily every reference hit the same way.

[Becca Freeman]

It was interesting for me because the first time I read it, I was like, this is a nostalgia bomb. I have so much nostalgia for this era. And I do. But reading it the second time, I think I overstated it because the book starts in the year 2000, so I would have been a freshman in High School. 911 happened when I was a sophomore in high school. So I remember these things, but my experience of them was very different. Age wise and musically I have some overlap. And I talked in last week's episode about going to indie shows at the Paradise Rock Club in Boston, which was really important to me. And I definitely have some musical overlap, especially with the third section of the book where it's like the Decemberists, Beach House Girl Talk, who I remember seeing live, like when they were first getting popular and it being like the best thing. So I do have some overlap, but I think more than anything, like, I was just picking up the vibes of the book.

[Olivia Mentor]

I totally get that. Cause I think the thing that works so well about it is that it's about the emotional experience of feeling so connected to certain songs, not about the songs themselves.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Even though they do feature so heavily in the book by, like, you know, to the point where the chapters are named after songs and stuff like that. But, like, that's the thing that really hit me. Like the scene from the very beginning where she's listening to Surf's Up, I think, and is like, describing what it's like to hear a song that, like, so perfectly encapsulates this emotion and, like, heightens everything you're feeling like I related to that so deeply. Cause, like, I feel like I've had that moment with so many songs, and especially when I was in my early 20s or my late teens, like, so many times over and over and over again. Did I feel that way with songs?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Even if it's not the same song, the emotion is familiar. So I saw people discussing in the Geneva Group that they felt like the first half of the book was slow for them. But I feel like it very much, like, grabbed me by the lapels from the very first chapter. Like the very first paragraph. I'm curious where you felt were you in right away?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I loved it right away. And to be honest, I think what also surprised me about this book is that I loved the character of Percy so much more than I loved their relationship. Like, I didn't actually really care that much by the end. Like, I did care. Like, I was into the story and like, I was invested. But I think she is just such a sharply drawn character. So, like, real and relatable and unlikable, but, like, charming and smart that, like, them finally getting together was like, okay, whatever, I don't know. Sure. And so I actually think the first half for me was like, what I was drawn to even more than the second half, if I had to pick. Although I liked it all.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree. I feel like you want them to be together because Percy wants them to be together. And you feel like she's not somebody that fucks around with being fickle about what she wants or her emotions. She's an all in type of person. So you're like, you want Jo, so I want you to have Jo. But you're like, is Jo good for you? Is this the right relationship? No, probably not.

[Olivia Mentor]

Is Jo even that great? That's a question I have as well.

[Becca Freeman]

Absolutely. Yeah. I felt like the first chapter, I felt like it had an aura around it. It had this fuzzy aura of, like, gold around it for me, where it just felt so special. Where, you know, she introduces. It's these two characters who have this shared love of music. They have this vocabulary for it that normal people and certainly myself, like, I do not have. And she has all these big opinions. She's clearly really prickly. She's not somebody who clicks with everyone. There's this great line about her friendship with her roommate and how it's, like, special for its uniqueness, where it's like an ugly diamond or something. Like, you get the sense that she doesn't click with a lot of people. But she's clicking with him and he's totally picking up what she's putting down. And I felt my romance spidey senses just tingling from the first chapter.

[Olivia Mentor]

It does have a. A very specific, unique tone, like feeling. I don't wanna use the word vibe. Cause it seems too like small for what it is.

[Becca Freeman]

But it's so vibey. Like it is about vibes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, it is. And it's also just the format of it is very different. I think the fact that you're hearing from her the whole time obviously is not the most like, unique structure in the world, but like something about it for a romance felt really.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I felt like her voice was really singular. I felt like I have not read many characters like Percy before. Like, she's not unlikable because I think, you know, she has this low self confidence that is really human, but she's. She doesn't give off best friend energy. You know, like in a lot of contemporary romances, it's like the main character is like really fun and sparkly in a way where you're like, this person seems great and you're like, Percy seems kind of like a downer.

[Olivia Mentor]

And that's what I mean by unlikable. I like her.

[Becca Freeman]

She's annoying. She's like a know it all. But yeah, like, she's a very unique romance character.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I loved her so much more than Jo.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, one of the things that I think also really stood out about this book was like just the relationship dynamics. Like there were a lot of. Certainly, I think a literary romance in general tends to not be tropey. And so, you know, it's not following the same conventions of like Grumpy Sunshine or Best Friend's Older Brother or something that you've seen before. But I felt like there were a lot of really interesting relationship dynamics. Like, okay, so first, like the triad of Percy, Jo and Zoe in the college section where it's like Jo and Zoe are together. Zoe's like, I'm a lesbian, but I'm like afraid to leave him because we've been together for so long. It was just like a really specific, unique dynamic. And it's like we're all friends, we're all hanging out with each other. Percy and Jo clearly have some kind of spark that even Zoe knows about. And this is all kind of above board, but nobody's acting on anything. Like, I loved that. And then I love the dynamic of Zoe going from Jo's girlfriend in the first section to like throughout the book becoming Percy's best friend of her staying in that. And then also Percy and Jo's working dynamic. I think it's not uncommon in a romance for the two main characters to be working on something together. They're planning a festival. I'm thinking of. Okay. In Book Lovers by Emily Henry. They're editing this book together. Why can't I think of any other examples? But it's like, usually it's not uncommon for them to be tied together by a project that they're working on. But this dynamic of Percy being jealous of Jo's talent and him becoming famous and her kind of not like, I just. I thought all of the dynamics were so singular and interesting.

[Olivia Mentor]

I totally agree. And I also think it's really the first time that I've seen a character in any book describe this thing of having a deep love of something but not an innate talent in the traditional sense.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

So Percy's relationship to music. And I found it really comforting and inspiring because it really does feel like when you're growing up, like, if you can't sit down and play the piano, your love of music is kind of meaningless. It's like, if you're not going to choir and getting the solo, it doesn't really matter if you feel drawn to music. You're just the same as everyone else. Everyone likes music. It's a human experience. But I think that some people, and I have certainly felt this way over my life, have a uniquely intense relationship with music, and that's meaningful. And I certainly cannot write or produce songs, but I think it was, like. It was validating to see, like, the things you are drawn to this intensely matter, even if you can't perform it to the world in the way they expect.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk more about Percy as a character. So one thing that I found really compelling about this character was her sexual and dating history. She comes into the book saying she's kind of half lost her virginity in a consensual act. But then she kind of. It hurt. She got scared. She ran out of the situation. She later decides to go back to finish things with that guy because she feels like it's hanging over her and she cannot be a fully formed adult without finishing it. And she doesn't want to bring somebody else into the situation. So she just goes back to this guy that she doesn't really like to fully lose her virginity. She goes to her MFA program and she has basically a sexual assault experience at a concert. She then goes on to have this boyfriend, Raj, who she doesn't want to have penetrative sex with. Like, I just, I thought that she had a very compelling and interesting sexual and dating history that felt really nuanced in real and kind of her emotions about it. Just. I don't know, I. I don't, I don't quite know what I'm trying to say, but I thought that that was a really interesting part of her character.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I agree with you. And I think that it was refreshing, I guess in the sense that I think that when you open a book and it's a romance, you're expecting a lot of sex. Yeah. You know, you're expecting steam. You're expecting these people who go to bed and like they just kind of know what they're doing, whether they're in college, 18, or they're 40 or what, or, you know, whatever. But, you know, I think everyone's sexual experiences are all over the map, especially when you are in college. Who among us hasn't, you know, had an experience or an encounter that was not how we envisioned it would be? Or horrifyingly more like the thing that happens to Percy at the concert? And I think, I don't know, I think it's just nice to have that like honesty reflected on the page in a book that some people might open and expect like tons of hot sex. That goes perfectly.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I can't help but compare it to. I just read Deep End by Ali Hazelwood, which is about two college aged characters and it was great. It was very hot. But like the sexual confidence that both of these characters had and especially the female main character who is wildly low self confidence in every other area. But like, I was like. It did strike me as unrealistic fun to read a blast.

[Olivia Mentor]

But yeah, yeah, it made the character seem even more real to me. And I mean, Percy felt like one of the most real characters I've read in a very long time. So it worked. It was hard to read in parts.

[Becca Freeman]

But one thing, I want to circle back to the sexual assault plotline. But one thing that I thought was really lovely. So I had the opportunity. I moderated Holly's event in New York City for her book tour. And when we were talking about Percy, I'd asked some type of question about, you know, that they say that there's always some of the author in their first book. And I was like, what parts of yourself did you give to this book or this character? And she said something along the lines of. And this is a paraphrase that I'm probably going to butcher, but it hopefully gets the spirit of it. She basically said that she put a lot of the things that she likes least about herself in Percy, and she learned to appreciate them more or forgive herself for them through the experience of, like, writing and editing the book. And I thought that that was so lovely. And I had it in the back of my head this time when I was reading the book for the second time. And it just gave me such a deeper tenderness for Percy, the character, knowing that this was kind of all of the author's insecurities about herself.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I love that so much. I can relate to that a lot. I feel like that's how I tend to write. But I definitely had moments reading this book where I knew I was like, this is so much the author. Because it felt so human.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And that's kind of the beauty of writing is like, we never know which parts. You know, it's. It's all an amalgamation. But I loved it because, like, you always think of writing as, like, an empathy building experience, but I think you think of it less as a empathy building experience for yourself. But that's how it feels sometimes. And yeah, I loved it. I'm glad that she did that.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I feel honored to have read about her in this way.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. All right, back to the sexual assault scene for a moment. So it was very fast. It was maybe about half a page. It comes very suddenly, out of nowhere. I found it really surprising and jarring both times. So first of all, I'm curious if it felt that way for you, but I'm curious if you feel like it was additive to the story. If you're like, why was this included? Or if you're like, yes, I totally. I totally think this was necessary.

[Olivia Mentor]

I do agree it was jarring. I actually had to stop, go back and read. Cause I wasn't sure what happened. But I do wonder if that's intentional because it reflects what the actual experience is probably like. Like, if you're in that situation, in a crowd, in a concert, and something that horrifying happens, like, I don't even think you have time to process it. Percy certainly didn't. I think it does add something to the story, but I'm having trouble communicating exactly what. Like, it's hard for me to imagine Percy without it in a weird way. But at the same time, it doesn't feel central to the plot. So it's. Do you know what I mean? I. It's hard to kind of put my finger on, but I think it does deepen her character in an important way.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree I think that gives a lot of concreteness to some of the feelings that she has, like Percy. And I'm certainly not saying that she deserved this. Nobody deserves to have this experience. And that's not what I'm trying to say at all. But Percy comes from a very normal family, seemingly middle class upbringing, and she has a lot of anger in herself, even though nothing that bad has happened to her. And so I think in some ways this as a character helped to calcify that and helped to make us understand some of that. And then I also think one thing that I really appreciated about the portrayal of it is that there's so much uncertainty around it, that Percy holds so much uncertainty around it afterwards of, like, I didn't stop this, so did I kind of like, sort of consent to this? Like, oh, I still have my tights on. So it, like, wasn't. It could have been so much worse. You know, like, there was like. And I feel like that feels very real of like, the trying to rationalize and trying to like somebody else's experience was so much worse. So how can I claim this thing for myself almost?

[Olivia Mentor]

And in a way, it sort of mirrors her songwriting experience with Joe. And this isn't to compare the, you know, like apples to apples, of course, but because she does go through this thing of like, well, you know, I said it was fine, like, I didn't need, or like, I didn't really write it or I did really write it. You know, like, she kind of goes back and forth for a while and has trouble, like, owning, like, her own anger about it. You know, she's like, angry, but she's like, well, should I be or shouldn't I be? Or he did this to me or I did this to myself. And I think that's a kind of interesting parallel.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. That's so interesting. Another traumatic event that we see on the page in this book is 9 11, which has this, like, very small but important role and goes on to be the basis of one of Joe's biggest hit songs. And I remember there being such a wave of like, 911 specific fiction where 911 was like, very at the forefront. And then we were kind of like, okay, we're done with this. We're over this. But here it's kind of just used as, like, a marker of time and shared emotion. And I found myself wondering if. I wondered if this is how the pandemic will be used in fiction at some point. Like, right now I'm thinking of books that Are very pandemic forward that, you know, I'm thinking of Jodi Picoult's Wish youh Were Here or I'm thinking of romantic comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld that are, like, very in your face pandemic stories. But I thought this was interesting, just having much more removed from 911 than from the pandemic. I was like, oh, yeah. I could see this becoming. It really hurts me to call this historical fiction, but I think it might in some ways be historical fiction.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think you might be right.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[Olivia Mentor]

I really kind of felt that way remembering Joanna Newsom as a. Oh, I know. Oh, my God. And then I realized she's not even on Spotify. So I like. Because I had actually, it's funny when we did the music episode, for some reason, when I got Spotify in college, I transferred all my itunes playlist from high school. So they're still, like, in there. And I can see some of them aren't. They're, like, in a secret folder. It's really weird. I have to, like, drop down. But I was looking through them and they're all titled things like Senioritis and, like, just. It really brought me back. But one of them had a Joanna Nome song. And I was like, God, I haven't thought about that person for years. I think she is married to Andy Samberg. She is. I thought about her in that context, which probably isn't very fair to her, but I was like, oh, my God. Like, it did kind of feel like, oh, yes, this is a different time and place going backwards, but, well, isn't it?

[Becca Freeman]

Clothing needs to be over 20 years old to be vintage.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I guess. Which would.

[Becca Freeman]

So if we used that rule, this would be historical fiction.

[Olivia Mentor]

Also, the descriptions of, like, the vintage dresses with the messy hair and the flats with the toe cleavage, I was like, you can see it. Oh, my God. Add like, a dramatic cat eye to that mix and like, those owl necklaces.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God. I know exactly what you're talking about. I haven't thought about that in years.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, my God. It did feel like really painting a picture.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. It felt like a time capsule.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Yes. I think. I think you're right. I think the pandemic will be used similarly. I wasn't expecting this, actually. It was a part of Morgan Pager's book. Oh, the Art of Vanishing, which I really didn't expect. And it's both a big part of the plot and also not. So it was really interesting to see it come to life there.

[Becca Freeman]

But yeah, it's part of my next book in a smaller, very small way. Like, it's not a pandemic book whatsoever. But the pandemic did happen and it impacted especially one character in a big way. I don't know. I remember there were discussions when the pandemic was happening about how will people want to read about this? Will they want to pretend that it never happened? Or will they be like, it's unrealistic for you to write about this time period without writing about it. And I think that's why a lot of fiction that we've seen coming out since then has either been like, the Christmas Orphans Club was set in 2018, going into 2019. So specifically so it didn't hit the pandemic, or you see a lot of fiction dealing with like the very current history. So the pandemic is far enough in the rear view that you don't really need to deal with it.

[Olivia Mentor]

But yeah, I think I can already feel with the pandemic similar to 9 11, like, the further away you get from it, the less it really just like stabs you right in the gut to even think about it, you know, and it becomes more a historical fixture than your own personal traumatic experience of it, which we all have versions of course. So I imagine it will pop up more and more.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Let's take another quick ad break.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quince. Go to quince.com bop for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com B O P to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com bop so this book is divided into three pretty distinct timelines. There's college, grad, school, and then post grad. Was there one in particular that you just loved or hated?

[Becca Freeman]

I would say that I probably gravitated. Oh, I'm trying to decide between the first and the second timeline. Yeah, I would say I gravitated most towards the first timeline because her and Jo are in the same place and since that's the key focus of the story. Like I loved the could be of it, you know, both romantically and his career. And then by the second one, I think she's really living her life without Jo and I did really enjoy the portrayal of her MFA program at Columbia and like her having these new friends, her having a boyfriend. Like I really liked her New York life, but it's almost like her fighting against her feelings with Jo. So I think yeah, I probably liked that second most. I don't know, what would you say?

[Olivia Mentor]

I definitely think I loved the first one the most, the college of it all. I think partially this is because it was the only time when their reasons for not being together felt like it felt like he had a girlfriend. So it's like, okay, certainly you wouldn't be together. And then once it got into the like the promise of it all, I started to. It's not that I wasn't invested because I was, but like he started to annoy me so much. Which is weird to say because I also still liked him and like, surely if this was a real person I would be like following him around the edges of the earth as a 20 year old.

[Becca Freeman]

You would be in a Facebook poke war with him for sure.

[Olivia Mentor]

100%. If I have any note about this book, it's not a criticism whatsoever. There is no chance that those two would not have slept together in college. Like, I'm sorry, there's no world College students are way too horny the 911 of it all feels like the world is ending. Like, come on. I just. It's gotta be. It would have happened. I understand why it didn't for the plot, but I. I don't. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just feel like, come on.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I did find myself rooting for them to be together less and less in every subsequent section. So, you know, in the college section, you're like, yeah, be together. In the MFA one, you're like, you still love him. Like, okay, yeah, maybe you should be together. And then by the end, I was like, you guys should not be together.

[Olivia Mentor]

You know, the part that probably pissed me off the most was it's towards the end, but when she's thinking about going to his show, and he's like, well, you don't have to worry about us accidentally sleeping together because I have a girlfriend or whatever. And I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. So that matters when it's your girlfriend. But when Hersey shows up at this wedding and says she has a boyfriend, you literally don't even respect that for one second. You pull her in, you don't care at all. So it's just like, oh, but when you have a girlfriend, you expect her to. To care or, like, to stop her. I don't know, man.

[Becca Freeman]

He's an incredibly selfish character throughout, and it feels in a way that feels realistic, and especially given that he is a touring musician, he's performing for crowds. Like, it all felt very realistic. But, yeah, you're like, all right, bro. Get over yourself.

[Olivia Mentor]

Also, I rolled my eyes so hard when he's texting her, like, come backstage for a hug at least.

[Becca Freeman]

But, you know, he would be real. But, you know, he would be.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, of course. And I would go backstage for the hug. Of course I would. But, oh, man, I was like, leave this child behind, Percy. Be free of him.

[Becca Freeman]

So I hope we can agree on this, but one of the relationships that I did like so much was Zoe and Percy's friendship. I felt neutral on Zoe in the college timeline, but. But especially when she comes back into the story at the end of Percy's mfa, and Percy has emailed her, and Zoe emails back with such tenderness. It made me just. It made me really teary thinking about, on a more macro level, like, the grace that a friend views you with versus the harshness you view yourself with. And Percy's talking about having slept with Joe and how it ruined her relationship, whatever. And Zoe says, just forgive yourself. It's too exhausting not to. And I was like, just the portrayal of that type of friendship.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also liked the part of the email that was like, you're gonna go to bodega or whatever and get ice cream, and if they don't have this specific type of ice cream, you're gonna be walking to the next one and the walk will be good for you anyway. It's just so highly specific.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

But also, like, this is the kind of advice I would want. But yeah, I loved her and I loved their friendship too. It was great.

[Becca Freeman]

Or even in the third, when Percy calls her from the studio and Zoe has known the call was gonna come and looked up music producers to. Was like reading Rick Rubin's Wikipedia to her to give her a counterpoint. Like, I just. I thought the tenderness of that friendship was so lovely.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it was great. It really balanced the story very well, I think. And also, honestly highlighted how Jo really sucked.

[Becca Freeman]

There was this moment at the end in the very last where Zoe's leaving for the night and Percy says, zoe, I love you. I said, and then added, more than Jo. I love you more than Joe. She laughed. I love you more than Joe, too. And I think that that is such a.

[Olivia Mentor]

And he's like, I'm right here.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. And that's like such a saving grace of the book where it's like, not that the book needed to be saved. I loved this book. But like, the awareness that these two female characters love each other more then they love this selfish man child character that one is like, romantically hung up on.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, yeah, it was great.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. Another small moment that just really did it for me in this book and I have been thinking about a lot. There's this moment after she goes to see Jo perform at the Troubadour in la and it's like kind of her first time seeing him perform since he's famous. And she's outside and I'm just going to read you the section. You're the girl from the bridge. It was the super fan. She was about to get into a parked car with her friend who was opening the driver's side door. I wrote the Bridge, I said. She shook her head, a look of awe on her face. Damn Bay Window is basically my favorite song ever. Did all that really happen? I nodded down to the black beans. Amazing. That is the best fuck you in the history of fuck yous. Like, okay, you don't want to kiss me. I'm going to make you sing about this mistake for the rest of your life. Dude, you're going to be singing about this at the fucking Troubadour in a fucking decade, dude. I laughed. Well, September 11th was, what, five years ago? He'll still be singing about it in five years. He'll be singing about it when he's 40. And I thought about this, probably not in the way the author intended, specifically with Taylor Swift and centering your discography around past relationships and what that must be like, to then be singing about them so much later, loving them or hating them, and, like, having to relive and hold onto those emotions.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. This is a perfect time to reference Karma is the guy on the screen coming straight home to me versus Karma is the guy on the Chiefs. Which begs the question. They break up, does she change it a third time?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or does she just own it to.

[Becca Freeman]

Karma on the screen?

[Olivia Mentor]

You think, yeah. But then it's like, you're going back to Joe.

[Becca Freeman]

Maybe she just stops performing. Maybe she just stops.

[Olivia Mentor]

She's done.

[Becca Freeman]

No, no, she takes the song out of. She's like, no more karma.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, I think she's gonna have to. Because there's something really, like. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? It's like you kind of just have to own at a certain point that. As she does in all her other songs, of course, less directly sometimes. But, like, you know, this song was about Jake Gyllenhaal, and now they're both adults. And, yeah, it has a life of its own beyond that. But it must be strange. Like, I wonder how often Taylor Swift thinks of the person she wrote the song about when she's performing it. Or maybe she's just thinking about, like, her cats. I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Or maybe she's performed it so many times that it's, like, lost meaning. When you say a word over and over and you're like, is that a word anymore? But yeah, like, theoretically, the ERAS tour is just getting up there and reliving every breakup she's had.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. You know, it reminds me a lot of publishing a book, actually, because you publish a book, and when you publish it, it means a slew of things to you. Right. Like, you know, every deep thing that went into it. You know, every little reference. As time goes on, it kind of belongs to other people and you move on to something else. And it's like, you know, that existed in that time period and it's fine, but it doesn't hold the same power that it once did. You know, it doesn't feel like the shining beacon representation of, like, your life's work. It's like, okay, it was a creative thing, and now I moved on, and maybe something will be better or worse or a better representation of me or whatever. So I bet it's a lot like that.

[Becca Freeman]

In the last episode, the music episode, you brought up the Weepies, who said were a husband and wife band who then divorced. Do they still perform at all?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't think they do because I follow them on Instagram and they mostly post about their separate, like, solo careers.

[Becca Freeman]

Because that's a whole nother level of needing to sing with. And I'm also thinking about Daisy Jones and the Six in this. But needing to perform with somebody that you've written a song with about a specific time in your relationship and your relationship has changed with them. Oh, God.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yep. Oh, man. I. There. Gosh. This could be a whole episode.

[Becca Freeman]

Or what's that band that you're obsessed with that then?

[Olivia Mentor]

The Civil Wars. The Civil wars who have not spoken.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. So they're not performing. They're not performing, no.

[Olivia Mentor]

But imagine being them and, like, hearing the song and, like, you're with your spouse.

[Becca Freeman]

Imagine being in Walgreens and hearing that song. Like, the name of Percy's blog in the third section is Walgreens Songs. But, like, imagine being somewhere completely mundane and hearing this, like, love song that you wrote for somebody that you now hate.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't imagine. I do have to mention one of the, like, Percy's writings that I loved in the book was the. I believe it was Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Janis Joplin. Oh, Janis Joplin, Graham Nash, Janis Joplin.

[Becca Freeman]

Leonard Cohen, Jodi Mitchell.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I loved that history and, like, listening to those songs again through a new lens, and it just was so interesting to me.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. All right, let's get into the ending. How did you feel about the ending? I have layered and complex thoughts.

[Olivia Mentor]

All right. I do, too. I have actually an interesting experience with the ending because I do this thing usually when I'm about 30% through a book, I, like, I go to the end and read the acknowledgments.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Because I'm, like, so excited. I love acknowledgments. Me, too.

[Becca Freeman]

Sometimes I'll read them first. But 30% through is an interesting place to take a breather because it's at.

[Olivia Mentor]

That point I have, like, a sense of what I admire about the author and, like, kind of like, questions about their process or who they work with or their history, whatever. So then I usually go there, and this time, while I was there, I like Just flipped to the last page because, like, I knew they were going to end up together, so. So I was like, okay, let me just see. And it was so strange to read that last scene.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

And then read the rest of the book up to the end because it was so much smaller than I thought it would be. Like, it was so much. It was just, okay, yeah, now they're gonna try. Like, it was just all right. Like, it wasn't some big reunion. And I know that was intentional on the. The part of the author, but it was just like, all right, Zoe's gonna leave, and now we're gonna have sex.

[Becca Freeman]

And it's musical, and we're, like, listening to headphones, and we're writing a song. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I didn't hate it. Like, I didn't hate it. I was just like, all right. I feel very confident they will not stay together. I don't know. So I'm like. I think maybe that was kind of what it was meant to represent that, like, they were always going to have both of these, like, this professional relationship and the sexual relationship, and it was impossible to separate the two. And, you know, it's going to just take its course. But you have complex, layered thoughts. So I want to know them all, because it did surprise me. I'm going to be honest. I was like, ah, different than I thought.

[Becca Freeman]

So, okay. What I loved about the third section is I loved Percy's career arc of getting into producing, of realizing that she did have a talent even if she couldn't sing or play an instrument, that her taste was talent in and of itself. I also loved where she produced the song for Jo's shitty ex bandmate. And she was like, I don't even care that I was a revenge hire. Like, it doesn't matter. I'm getting mine. And I loved that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Relationship arc with Jo. I loved the spikiness and, like, pettiness of them communicating with each other indirectly. Like, he pulls a line from her blog and puts it in a song, and then she hears that he was drunk singing this Fleetwood Mac song at a party, and she writes a blog post about it and deletes it. Like, the whole thing of them communicating indirectly, I loved. Is it healthy? No. But I loved it. And there's this line where she emails something about Bay Window to him, and she goes, I'd started to think of us as a divorced couple with a successful grown child. And that might be, like, my. One of my favorite lines in the book. And I thought the scene where they're at Union pool, which is a real place. It's in my neighborhood. And they are pretending not to know each other. And somebody's like, oh, do you know Joe? He's the lead singer of this band, Caroline, and she pretends not to know him, and they're going through for her job. There are these questionnaires where she's trying to recruit trendsetters, and she's, like, going through the questionnaire with him, and they're kind of, like, talking obliquely about themselves, not directly. I thought that was electric. They, like, get up to go to the bathroom to theoretically fuck, but then she gets the ick while she's in line. And if she had just walked out of that bar and, like, there was a couple lines on it of, like. And then I realized that, like, this was in my past. Like, I think that would have been the perfect ending for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it felt a little bit like, start stoppy at some parts, you know, I was like, oh, okay. Oh, okay. Like, and I guess that's the point, but, like, it felt a little chaotic.

[Becca Freeman]

You know, I think that's maybe inherent to how much time she was trying to move through in such a short book, because it's only 270 pages. So that didn't bother me. But the. The perfect bow on it at the end of, like, we're going to move to Montana. I was like, it was so much better when it was spikier and he was wrong for her and she knew it, and she almost gets sucked back in, and then she walks away. Like, would have been so much more satisfying to me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Something rubbed me the wrong way about how she was like, look at this place in Portland, Maine. And he was like, no, we're going to Montana.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, right.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was like, well, why can't you go to Maine and find a studio? But to your point, that scene, the line where he says, let me suffer you.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Was giving me, like, Neil, like, priest energy from Fleabag. I was like, okay. Like, I see it. That scene was.

[Becca Freeman]

It crackled?

[Olivia Mentor]

It was. It was very good. And then just kind of. Okay, we're moving on.

[Becca Freeman]

Josh Laura, friend of the podcast from Tell the Bees in his newsletter, he hated the ending to this book. He's like, I loved the book, and I will never forgive the ending. And, yeah, the ending felt. I want to talk about literary romance in general and what makes a literary romance, but it almost felt like the book was a literary romance all the way through. And then the last scene switched to being a standard contemporary romance.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I agree with you and I do wonder, slash suspect that this went through many endings. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

I wonder if somebody was like, maybe it did end with that scene at union Pool. And then somebody was like, no, they need to end up together.

[Olivia Mentor]

I just wonder if there was a way that. And I guess this is kind of what it's doing, where it could have been even more clear that even though they're together in this moment and they're gonna try, they're not actually going to end up as each other's one and only. I just think it's almost too. Like, you kind of have to imply that, but, like, you could definitely read this and be like, oh, they're meant to be, you know, so. I don't know. I see your point, though. I didn't hate it. I didn't hate it. I didn't think it. I still love the book. I just was perplexed.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah. And it was also interesting to have the most graphic sex scene when they have sex in the hotel. It's. It's pretty fast. We do get some details, but I felt like the one at the end was more detailed as a sex scene. And I was like, this is a really interesting choice to have this in the last three pages.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mm. This is another good example when. When it comes to the sex of, like, it really felt like a character study about Percy, not a romance.

[Becca Freeman]

Totally.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I liked it because. I think I liked it more because of that. But to me, like, I didn't even. There were sexy parts, but it was always the dialogue or, like, the banter. It wasn't really, like, the sex just felt kind of sexual, secondary to me, which is fine.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, they've only had sex twice.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And briefly.

[Becca Freeman]

And briefly. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about literary romances, which I feel like are somewhat rare, but maybe on the rise. What do you think makes a romance literary?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think it's mostly about language.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And, like, the focus on character rather than the stakes or, like, the tension, you know, Even though you can't, you have to have both. What about you? It's such an interesting question.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree with you. I think it's a language. I think it's a lack of tropiness. And here's a thought that I can't quite fully dot the I across the T on. But, like, I wonder if there's something to the tone of it and almost an acknowledgement of the darker parts of the world of relationships. Like, I think a lot of times in a contemporary romance, like, I'm thinking of an Emily Henry. Like, if the main character has been cheated on, this is, like, the worst thing that's ever happened to them. And there's like, an exceptionalism of like, oh, my God, I can't believe he cheated on me. As opposed to, like, I feel like if that had happened in this book, it was like, this is the nature of humans and, like, I'm not special. Like, the way that Percy thought through her sexual assault of, like, does this count? Like, was I complicit? As opposed to, like, if a character in a contemporary romance has anxiety, they're the only person who's ever had anxiety, you know, so it's like, almost an acknowledgement of the darker parts of the world.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

And also, like, the messiness of relationships. Like, an acknowledgement of that not every relationship is, like, a million orgasms and, like, sparky banter all the time.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I think it's also really hard to write a successful contemporary romance if the love interest is kind of like Joe in this book. You know, it's like, this book is so much not about Jo in a lot of ways that, like, it kind of doesn't matter that, like, he doesn't treat her particularly well at any point. But in a contemporary romance, if the whole point is that these people end up together, then, like, it really does matter that, like, you're as deeply invested in their relationship as you are with the individual characters, or vice versa, you know?

[Becca Freeman]

What are the books that you think of when you think literary romance?

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, Talking at Night, of course.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

We've talked about it so many times. Also Shark Heart for me. But I think the thing about those is that they're like literary romances and also sad.

[Becca Freeman]

Again, I think it's tone. Like, I do think tone has something to do with it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. But what was cool about Deep Cuts for me is that it was literary romance but also funny and fun, and I think that's an incredible feat to pull off. So round of applause for Holly Rickley. But is there any that come to mind for you, like, immediately? I would love to have more of these in my library.

[Becca Freeman]

I think one could argue that Sally Rooney writes literary romance.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Especially, like, I'm thinking of normal people in Beautiful World. Where are you? I haven't read Intermezzo yet, and I think Conversations with Friends is much more a friendship story. But, like, I do think that Sally Rooney writes literary romance. I'm really intrigued by this is a Love Story by Jessica Soffer, which was the February read with Jenna Pick Which I think was pitched as a literary romance. It has shockingly mixed Goodreads reviews. I'm very curious to read it for myself at some point and see what I think.

[Olivia Mentor]

I want to read this one too.

[Becca Freeman]

But I think that might be a literary romance. I'm very curious if we'll see more.

[Olivia Mentor]

I hope so. I love these.

[Becca Freeman]

So, last thing I want to talk about is that big news came out right at the publication of this book that A24 is adapting this into. I don't know if it's a TV series or a movie. And Saoirse Ronan and Austin Butler are playing Percy and Jo. I'm very curious how the casting tracks for you and if you think the book will work well as an adaptation.

[Olivia Mentor]

Great question. This is fascinating to me. I am a huge Saoirse Ronan fan and, like, I watched a movie recently. What was it? Where, like, one of. Oh, my old ass. There's like a 12 year old boy, like. No, no. There's a plot line where, like, the sibling of the main character, he's like 12 or 13, and is obsessed with Saoirse Ronan and has, like a collage wall of, like, all photos of her. And that's me. I love her. I think she's an incredible actress and I think I can see her for this role more than I can see Austin Butler. Because to me, Austin Butler, though beautiful, has, like, an inherent sliminess to him. You know, he just.

[Becca Freeman]

I think he's gonna be a perfect Joe. I. Well, I think that he. I mean, he needs to lose the Elvis accent that he picked up and then integrated into his whole life. But assuming he doesn't play this with the Elvis accent, I truly think that he has this, like, detached, I'm too cool for you thing that could be perfect for Joe.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. See, this makes me think they're gonna lean really hard into him being kind of an ass.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Which I then makes me think, how can you write the ending the same way if that. Because it would. If you're gonna portray him as slimy Austin Butlery, whatever. Sexy, of course, hot the whole time. And then at the end, you're gonna be like. And they all lived happily ever after. Montana. I think the audience is gonna be like, what? So I don't know. I will watch this. I'm excited. I think it will be hot. I think it will be well done. I love Saoirse Ronan.

[Becca Freeman]

I think this will be such a good adaptation because I think the amount of longing eye contact, like, it could just be longing eye contact. You could, like. There's gonna be so much eye contact in this movie, and I cannot wait.

[Olivia Mentor]

I am literally counting down the minutes until I can see the interpretation of the scene where he's like, is Percy in the audience? And then everyone. And she's like, it's me. And then he's like, I wrote this both with her and for her. And then everyone's looking at her when he's, like, singing it. Like, the way I. Oh, my God. The teenage me. I think I had this exact fantasy, actually, at some point in my life, so I am so excited. I am so, so, so excited.

[Becca Freeman]

I like Saoirse Ronan for this. I almost feel like I would have preferred Florence Pugh. I think Florence Pugh has a.

[Olivia Mentor]

That could have been good.

[Becca Freeman]

She likes Spikier. Yeah. She has a spikiness to her that I think I could really see working with Percy.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I recently watched On a Plane, which was a really strange decision. The Outrun that came out last year with Saoirse Ronan, and it's such a beautiful film, but it's really hard to watch. It's about. She's, like, a severe alcoholic in the movie, but she's, like, really intensely harsh in certain scenes, and it's physically painful to watch. So I think she'll deliver. But I see what you're saying about Florence. I think she will deliver, though.

[Becca Freeman]

I can't wait for this. I am so excited, and it seems like it's moving at warp speed for any kind of adaptation.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I imagine it's, like, exactly what producers and stuff were looking for in the. Like, after how many people were obsessed with Daisy Jones? Like, I imagine it'll be the slightly more highbrow TV music version of that.

[Becca Freeman]

Wait, can I tell you one more thing that I learned when I moderated the conversation with Holly Brickley that I think you'll appreciate.

[Olivia Mentor]

Sure.

[Becca Freeman]

She took piano lessons while she was writing this book and she. All of the songs that are not real in the book, like, she wrote versions of them.

[Olivia Mentor]

I want to hear them. I would see.

[Becca Freeman]

I do, too.

[Olivia Mentor]

I try to hear them in my head so badly. I guess we will hear them.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know if. I don't know. I don't think she's going to share them with the producers. I think they'll just write their own versions. But she felt like it was important to get into it. She has music and lyrics, and she very much downplayed. She was like, they're so bad. I would never share them with anyone. But I was like, I Am obsessed with this fact.

[Olivia Mentor]

I am so impressed by that.

[Becca Freeman]

I was like, did you tell the piano teacher why you were learning this? And she was like, no.

[Olivia Mentor]

It literally just occurred to me that the songs will be in the show. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm gonna get to hear Bay Window.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a hard thing to pull off, though. It's a hard. They make it sound good enough.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. But I trust the taste level of everyone involved. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

I know that Austin Butler can sing well enough that it won't be Butcher. Like, I feel confident.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man. Wow. Oh, wait. I do have one question. Was there, like, an early 2000s frontman, indie musician, or band you were picturing when you pictured Caroline or him?

[Becca Freeman]

Mm, that's such a good question.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's a tough one.

[Becca Freeman]

I. Do you have one?

[Olivia Mentor]

So I do have one, but only in terms of vibe, because I don't know what they look like. But in, like, late high school, I was really into this band called the Kooks.

[Becca Freeman]

They're mentioned in here.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, are they?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I didn't know that. But they. I think they're British. But, like, they were exactly the level of famous that I imagined Caroline being, which is that, like, if you're in the indie music scene, you absolutely know a few songs 100%. They sold out shows, but also, like, not the Killers or something, you know, it's not like you two or whatever. I'm naming, like, any band I can think of. So that was the only, like, fame level equivalent I kept thinking of.

[Becca Freeman]

She was saying that she was thinking about the Shins. I don't think the Shins have a front man. That is. That is Joe.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that's a good one. I also appreciated all the Shins references because that was another band that I was also into.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I don't know who I was picturing. Like, I guess I was kind of picturing. I'm Googling it, because first of all, they're French, and second of all, they're older and don't have the same. They don't. Joe is not the frontman, but I was kind of picturing Phoenix. Like, do you remember that song that they had that was everywhere?

[Olivia Mentor]

Is that list Mania, or is that.

[Becca Freeman]

Was that the one that was everywhere?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know if that's their song, but that's.

[Becca Freeman]

It is their song.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

I might be thinking of 1901. Yeah, I'm thinking of 1901.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Yeah, I do remember that song. And I remember Listimania as well. But yeah, that's a good.

[Becca Freeman]

I was kind of thinking of that level of fame. I remember seeing them headlining at ACL and it was huge. Or they weren't even headlining. They were like mid tier. But, like, there was such a big crowd for it. Like, I was picturing them where it's like they had this level of fame. They had a couple of singles, but like, they never became household name. And then. This is totally inaccurate. Looks wise. But I was kind of picturing Bourne's.

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

As Jo, I think.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that. See, that's actually very interesting because I was also sort of picturing Alex Turner from the Arctic Monkeys, but taller.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Which is actually kind of born in a weird way. Like, dark hair, dark eyes, mysterious. Like, if you saw him on the street, wouldn't be like, wow, what a hottie. But like, as a frontman.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

In a band with the right sunglasses, like. Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

I actually think if you, of course.

[Olivia Mentor]

Alexa Chung would date him.

[Becca Freeman]

If you crossed Alex Turner and bourns in a lab, I think you might have.

[Olivia Mentor]

Joe, we've cracked it. Do you remember I went to an arctic monkey show and it was at the height of the. Everyone was obsessed with Alex Turner and Alexa Chung. And like, on Tumblr, it was literally just like their relationship just reblogged. And it reminded me so much of when she was talking about Joe dating this bassist and like, how. Oh, gosh, it just. I don't know, it really brought me back to a time when, like, I could imagine, like, being obsessed with Joe as a listener.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's get out of this book and let's get into some men matter.

[Olivia Mentor]

What are you obsessed with?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, it feels appropriate for this episode to have a music obsession. Have you heard the new Haim song Relationships?

[Olivia Mentor]

I have not.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm obsessed with it. It has this 80s 90s feel. I don't have the vocabulary to describe its references, but it is. I feel like it has come out slightly too soon and is slightly too indie to be the song of the summer, but it has song of the summer energy to me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay. Hi, Marx.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm gonna send it to you after this. I need you to listen to it immediately.

[Olivia Mentor]

I will, I will.

[Becca Freeman]

What is your obsession?

[Olivia Mentor]

I am obsessed with a show on Netflix called adolescence. It's four episodes. It's about this young 13 year old boy who is accused of murdering a female classmate.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, God.

[Olivia Mentor]

And yeah, it's dark. But what's so interesting about the show is that every episode Is about an hour. And it's all one continuous shot. So every episode you see, they filmed from start to finish, all in one go. There are no edits. Like, it's unreal that they pulled it off. And the main child actor has never acted before and is like Oscar worthy performance in episode three. Yes, it's crazy. And so a lot of them took like 10 or 15 takes. And like it's an hour. You know, these people are acting for an hour straight. Plus they're keeping track of the cameras. Plus they're like. What is the word for it? Not spotting. But anyway, what does that do for.

[Becca Freeman]

The pace of the show though? Cause usually you would cut out so much of the filler versus if you're doing a continuous take, you have to show everything.

[Olivia Mentor]

So it's really specific what it does. It's like in one sense, it feels a little bit slow because there is so much like moving from place to place that you're not used to seeing. But on the other hand, it feels so real because you feel like you are with them, like traveling to each of these rooms and having these conversations. And it's like you're just holding your breath the whole time. But it also feels. The pace feels different. It's just different than anything I've ever watched. Like, I have no idea how they pulled it off. The end of episode two, there's a drone shot and they literally like film the whole hour long thing. Everyone got their lines perfectly. That's the other thing. Like, if you mess up, you have to start over or you have to keep going. So it's so interesting. But they took the camera, they attached it to a drone, then it went up over the neighborhood. It's. I can't stop reading about, like, how they did it. It's just so cool.

[Becca Freeman]

Nothing about the pitch for this show appeals to me content wise, but hearing you talk about the shooting of it actually makes me want to watch it.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's really fun to watch knowing that because then you can kind of almost see the parts where they maybe they start a word and then they start it again or something, but they keep going. Like there's like one of those moments most episodes. It's just impressive. Very impressive.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow. All right, so neither of us read anything new. We both read this book this week. But tell us about our book club pick for April.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, for April, we are going to read Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey, which came out this month. And so maybe some of you have already read it or you already have it. I'm so excited to discuss this. It is one of my favorite books I've read in so long. This is about the Salt family. It's a father and his three children living on this island near Antarctica and they're kind of taking care of this research station. A woman washes on shore. She's like severely injured and they have to figure out why she's there, where she came from, what she's looking for. It is really beautifully written, but super fast paced in my opinion. Lots of twists at the end. My heart was like pounding out of my chest. I cried. The characters are great. It's different, a lot of heavy themes, but I think it'll make for a great discussion.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm excited. This is not my normal fare, but having heard you pitch it previously and then just seeing a lot of hype about it on the Internet, I was already excited to check this out. So I'm excited to go outside my comfort zone and hopefully find a sliver of our Venn diagram.

[Olivia Mentor]

I hope you love it.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, if you would like to discuss this book with us, Deep Cuts Meaning please join us in the Facebook group Search Baton Paper. You can join us in our Geneva group, which is basically a chat room app with like 2,000 people in it. You can find us on Instagram atonpaperpodcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is@beccafreeman substack.com youm can find me on.

[Olivia Mentor]

Instagram oliviamentor or on substack at liviamentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And we will see you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.