← Bad On Paper
Bad On Paper
Elin Hilderbrand & Shelby Cunningham on Their New Mother/Daughter Book Collab
00:50:32
We are SO excited to chat with and her daughter, , about their new book, ! We ask how their collaborative writing process worked, about Shelby’s boarding school experience that inspired the book, and Elin’s feelings on venturing into a new world...
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- [00:18]
A
Hi everyone and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:23]
A
And today we have an interview with Ellen Hildebrand and her daughter Shelby Cunningham.
- [00:29]
B
Who recently wrote a book together that just came out yesterday. If you listened to last week's episode, it was what I was reading. I am very excited as an Ellen head to share this with all of you. I think we got some inside scoop. Never before heard. All right. But before we get to them, I feel like everyone's just now like + 15 + 15. Scrolling ahead Olivia, tell me about your high.
- [00:52]
A
My high has been this weather, which has been unbelievably beautiful. Just in the mornings it's in the high 50s, low 60s. In the afternoons it's 70, 75, it's sunny. I've been trying to make the absolute most of it reading in the hammock. I have been going to different cafes around town and working outside, which I haven't done in a long time, ordering hot coffees, iced coffees. You can go either way in this weather, which, you know, that's one of, it's one of its many perks. But I also went to an outdoor silent reading club at my local bookstore last night, which is essentially they just open up the garden, they put out these comfy seats and you can order drinks and bring your book or buy a book. And then starting at 6pm for an hour, you're just not allowed to talk and everyone just sits around and reads, which is so nice. Oh wow.
- [01:50]
B
And you were reading your own separate books. You weren't reading the same book.
- [01:54]
A
Yes, everyone brought their own book. Although weirdly there was a lot of overlap. I brought culpability and there was someone else reading culpability, but it was really relaxing because sometimes you want to be a little bit social, but like not all the way, you know. And so it was like a little bit of chit chatter at the beginning and then, then we couldn't talk and it was just nice to be with other people reading in a group like that. So I've just been enjoying this weather. So, so, so much love. What's your high?
- [02:23]
B
My high is that I came back from my trip to Italy with big September energy. I like wanted routine, I wanted productivity and I have gotten it. I have had a Early to Bed, early to Rise week thanks to Westward jet lag, at least early for me. I have gotten really into the weeds with this edit on my current book, hopefully the second to last draft, and I'm hopefully submitting it. Hopefully I have submitted it by the time you listen to this. So yeah, I'm. I'm feeling good.
- [02:55]
A
Good. Well, what's your low?
- [02:57]
B
Who am I to have a low? I have a new printer that works. It is in my living room. It will not get rained on.
- [03:03]
A
You should get a little cover for it. Like an upholstered.
- [03:06]
B
I know bench, not upholstered. I should get a like weatherproof cover for it.
- [03:13]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean if it's in the middle of your living room, I'm. I feel more confident about it. Survival.
- [03:19]
B
I do too. What about you? Do you have a low?
- [03:21]
A
I hope not. Really. No. I. I'm still a little bit getting over this cold. Just that lingering mucus, you know. Lingering mucus is never. It's always a low, no matter what form it comes in. I think. Anyway, yeah, that's it.
- [03:38]
B
Well then let's take a quick ad break and get into this interview.
- [03:46]
A
This episode is sponsored by Quint. Fall is about to be in full swing and it really is the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that feel as good as they look. Luckily, Quince makes it easy to look polished, stay warm and save big without compromising on quality. Lately all I want to wear is various shades of the color brown. So I have been actively browsing quints for cashmere sweaters and fall jackets in a similar color palette and I have found so many affordable options.
- [04:18]
B
I actually just got two more of their Mongolian cashmere crewneck sweaters because I got one last year and I loved it so much. So I had a camel one and now I got a red one and a black one that are in the mail. But if you haven't purchased from them before, Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50 washable silk tops and skirts, perfectly tailored denim, all at price points that feel a little too good to be true. I have been eyeing their wool coats which look completely designer level but cost a fraction of the price and the quality from what I've experienced so far is just as good, if not better.
- [04:57]
A
There's also a button down cashmere cardigan in of course brown, but they have other colors as well that I cannot stop thinking about. Everything I've bought from Quince has been such excellent quality, so even if I haven't purchased it yet just thinking about it, I feel like it is something that will be worth it. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com bop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com bop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com bop.
- [05:41]
B
Let'S get into this interview. Today we're joined by Ellen Hildebrand who is a graduate of the Johns Hopkins University and the University of Iowa Writers Workshop. The Academy is her 31st first novel and the first co written with her daughter Shelby Cunningham. Hildebrand is the co host of the podcast Book Speech and Beyond along with TimTalksBooks creator Tim Ehrenberg, friend of the podcast. She is raising four young adult children and likes to spend her free time at the beach and on her peloton. And she is a grateful 10 year breast cancer survivor. We're also joined by Sheldi Cunningham who was born and raised on Nantucket Island. She's a 2024 graduate of the St. George's School in Middletown, Rhode island and she is presently a student at the of Miami and Coral Gables. Hello Ellen and Shelby, welcome. We're so excited to have you here.
- [06:30]
C
Thank you for having us, Becca. This is so much fun. This is Shelby's first time on Bad on paper.
- [06:35]
B
Ellen, this is your second time on Bad on paper and last time you were here you told us that you were retiring and I have to say it feels like a little bit of a fake out. You had Swan Song last year, your finally in Tuckett novel and then this fall you're already back with a new book, the Academy, which is what we're here to talk about. Has your day to day changed in any meaningful way since retiring?
- [06:55]
C
No, it hasn't. One of my favorite lines ever is how can I miss you if you won't go away? So basically what happened was I had always planned to retire with Swan Song. That was last year. And then Shelby and I just got the idea to write a boarding school book and my publisher for obvious reasons wanted to bring it out asap. So here it is. It's out next Tuesday. Just a scant year or year and change after Swan Song. So yeah, no, my life has not changed.
- [07:27]
B
Well, I mean I'm sad for you, but I'm happy for us, the readers that we get more Ellen in a different format.
- [07:34]
C
Well, thank you.
- [07:34]
A
Can you give our listeners a. I mean I'm sure most of them know, but can you give the quick pitch for the Academy?
- [07:41]
C
Yeah. So the Academy is based at a fictional New England boarding school called Tiffin Academy, set in the northwest corner of Massachusetts near the Vermont and New York border. It is a whole world. So basically the novel is just a look at one year at an elite New England boarding school. We follow the junior class in book one, and they're called fifth Formers. And at the end of their fourth form year, the year previous, in the spring, one of their classmates died by suicide. And so they're all a little shell shocked when they come back in the fall and a little tender. And on the first day of school, they find out that in fact, Tiffin Academy has been ranked the number two boarding school in the country, which makes no sense. They were number 19 the year before. It was a 17 point jump. Nobody knows why. And so everything feels like the year's getting off on the right foot. And they have a new student, which is the girl that came in to replace the child that died. And so she's an object of curiosity, of course, and she becomes sort of the main character in the novel and everything feels like it's gonna go just fine because they have this amazing number two ranking. And then as the year progresses, the wheels fall off the bus.
- [08:55]
B
So I have to know, how did the idea for this come about? Like, who approached who and said, let's write a book together?
- [09:02]
D
It was definitely her. I would cover her with stories every day. I mean, the things that go on you just literally wouldn't believe, which you will now because they're in the book. But when I would tell her, she was like, this is so good. Like, it has to be a book. We joke all the time. We always say, stfp, straight to the fucking pages. So everything I tell her, straight to the pages.
- [09:20]
B
So she's been saving up material, your whole boarding school career to put into a book.
- [09:25]
D
Even now, everything I say.
- [09:27]
B
So next the kids are going to go to college and it's going to be. It's going to be a continuing series.
- [09:32]
D
Yeah.
- [09:32]
B
So, Shelby, you are currently a sophomore in college. I'm curious what your major is and if this was kind of like a right time, right place project for you or if you have aspirations to follow in your mother's footsteps and to continue writing novels.
- [09:45]
D
Yeah, people have been asking me this. So I am an English major, specifically in creative writing, and I kind of wanted it just because of the book. It was sort of like an angle. But I've really liked it. I love writing. I do, but I don't know if that's like, I don't think I want to be a novelist per se, but I would. Since we have movie stuff going on at the Academy. Technically, we're executive producers, like, on it automatically. And so I think that that's sort of the route that I'm leaning towards. I'm taking, like, screenwriting right now, and I'm taking survey of motion pictures, so I think that's what I'm going to pursue.
- [10:20]
B
Well, what cool on the ground experience you're getting either way. I know to figure that out in the industry.
- [10:26]
A
And we're definitely going to talk about the adaptation a little bit later, I hope, or whatever we can talk about. So, like you said, you're bringing your unique stories from boarding school and that experience into this, and your mom is, of course, bringing the expertise of having written dozens of novels. What was the collaboration process like, and how did it work? Exactly?
- [10:50]
C
So, basically, Shelby's contributions are threefold. So first of all, we're using her lived experience, right? So when we sat down to do this, she helped me create the characters. So we created the characters together, and then we discussed their arcs. And then every single detail that goes into this book, of which there are many, came from Shelby's lived experience. Right. I'm not saying that we used exactly her experience, but just like the school year and the way the school day is set up and the afternoon activities and the sports schedules and the ay, it goes on and on. You know, the food truck, everything, all the things were pulled out of Shelby's lived experience. And then Shelby wrote scenes that feature the kids. So, like, for example, the first scene she wrote was where Dovi. It's the night of first dance, and Davi's getting ready with all the other girls in the bathroom. And they realize that Charlie, who's the new girl who will play Cinnamon, is not going to first dance. And so Davi goes down to talk to her, and Shelby wrote that scene because that kind of scene can only be told from her perspective. And then the third way that she contributed is that she edited every single page of this book so that it sounded like it was authentically taking place in 2025.
- [12:07]
B
So, Shelby, I think. Tell me if I'm wrong. I think you were writing this book while you were still in boarding school, right?
- [12:14]
D
Yes, I was.
- [12:15]
B
What was the reaction from your classmates? Did they think it was cool? Did they want to be fictionalized and, like, included in some way, or were they, like, keep me out of this?
- [12:23]
D
That's a great question. So when I. We started writing it my junior year, it was sort of like an idea of my mom's, but I didn't Think it was really gonna happen. And then it did, and we had a contract in the spring, but I didn't tell anyone, really, other than, like, my very close friends who sort of also were just like, oh, yeah, like a. But you're writing a book. You know, and then my senior year, people really started to figure it out, and I just think the main question was, am I in the book, or am I gonna be in the book? And my answer is no. Like, you're not interesting enough to be in the book, but some of the things you do will probably or have done will probably be in it. So. Yeah.
- [12:58]
B
Have they read advanced copies? Are they thrilled to see what the fictionalized version of your boarding school looks like?
- [13:05]
D
Not really, because I don't know where they would get advanced copies either.
- [13:08]
B
Oh, you're not giving them to them?
- [13:09]
D
To your friends?
- [13:10]
C
Well, we sent them to her teacher, so her advisor, the head of humanities, her history teacher, and then they passed it around, of course.
- [13:20]
A
Oh, of course, of course.
- [13:21]
C
Yeah.
- [13:22]
B
You guys are fueling the gossip cycle for this school year at the real. The Real Proxy for Tiffin Academy.
- [13:29]
C
I feel like this is the podcast shell where we break the story out. What do you think?
- [13:34]
D
Gosh. Okay.
- [13:36]
C
Do we need it?
- [13:37]
B
You can't tease us with that. And not now.
- [13:40]
D
You have to so truly just sprung this on me. Yeah, Shelby.
- [13:44]
C
So there's, like, a scandalous story that happened at the end of Shelby's senior year, and she's going to. She's now going to tell it.
- [13:50]
D
Tatum's laughing. Okay, so we have not talked about this with anyone at all.
- [13:55]
B
Breaking news, basically.
- [13:57]
D
Yes. Breaking news at the end of my senior year. So I'd been there for three years, and we have an honors disciplinary panel, and I had never gone. I never been in trouble. I've never had any sort of. Like, it's both academic and also just, like, for everything else, never gone. And then two nights before prize day. So Prize day, it's graduation. Everyone wears white. You get your diplomas, all the parents come. It's out on, like, the lawn by the ocean. And everyone's senior year, it's, like, tradition to go into each other's dorms. Not to, like, hook up, but, like, it's sort of like a last hurrah. It's like, everyone's so sad, because the thing about boarding school is when you leave each other, you're actually leaving. It's not like graduating from high school and going to college and then coming home for the summer. Like, I still haven't Seen so many of my friends, like, since I left. So it's like, very emotional. And we've lived together in such close quarters for so many years. And it's just become a tradition, like, to spend, like, the last nights, like, just like, you know, living it up. And so two nights were prize day. My friends and I went into the boys complex, which is in the novel version of it, and all of a sudden a bunch of boys came running down from the second floor. Because you're not. Even if you're not like, with a girl, you're not technically supposed to be, like, running around the dorms in the middle of the night. And they were like, sellers coming, Sellers coming. And I was like, oh, my God, what? And everyone was like, pause. And everyone, like, ran into rooms. And I was standing there in the hallway, like, so confused. I was like, the girls were upstairs, so I was going to go upstairs and I didn't really know what was going on. And the teacher came down and saw me and was like, get out. And I was like, okay. So I ran back to my dorm, I went to bed. And I woke up to my dorm parent, like, waking me up. Mr. Staples, like, was shaking me and he was like, you have to go to the dean on duty. The dean on duty is, like, really trying to get a hold of you. And I was like. So I told my mom, like, shouldn't answer no one.
- [15:55]
C
I was in my bar class, it was morning.
- [15:57]
D
I called my brothers, I called my dad. No one answered. So I was like, okay, I guess I'm just going to. Honesty is the best policy. Like, I'll just like, go in there. Like, what are they going to do? And we had a change in the head of school for my senior year. So we had had a woman named Ms. Callan for, like, I don't know, probably almost a decade. She decided to leave as I was going into senior year. And so all of my junior year, they were trying. They were like, head hunting for a new head of school, and they found one. And it was this guy named Mr. Wirtz. Everyone was just like, oh, he's harmless. But then he, like, really cracked down, like, very traditional, like, change the dress code, like. And so I walked in as the dean on duty, and he was like, where were you last night? And I was like, this is not Mr. Wirtz. This is just our dean. And I told them. I was like. I was in the boys forum with, like, a bunch of people. And then we, like, talked. It was fine. It was like a long conversation. He was like, you understand why this is bad? And I was like, yeah, but I've never been like, I've never done anything like this. It was harmless. You know, that afternoon I get a call that's like, you need to go to Mr. Wirtz's office. They call my advisor, too, Doc Matt, who's like, one of my favorite people ever. And we all sit down and he's just like, shelby. Because I was thinking, like, talking to her, I'm like, what really could they. What could the punishment be? Like? I've completed all my courses is like, the last three days, the seniors don't have anything. So I didn't have school. Like, I'd finished my finals. I finished everything. So I was like, what really are they going to do? We sat down and he was like, I'm sorry, Shelby, but you can't walk and you can't get your diploma. And I immediately started bawling, crying, and I was like, what? Is there anything I can do? I've never been so upset about anything ever. It was like the morning. The past three years, I had literally been looking for. It's everyone's favorite day, and then it's a week of celebrating, and you have a party that night. Whatever. I was so distraught over this, and that kind of fueled. So I sort of left with a bad taste. I love St. George's and I would tell anyone to go, but left with a bad teeth to my mouth after that situation, which we've never talked about. And so that also fueled some characters in the book, which you will see.
- [18:04]
B
So wait, so you just had to sit in your room while all of this was happening? Not even that.
- [18:09]
C
They made her leave camp. Tell me's dad and I were on our way. We were on the boat because, of course, we live on an island. We were on the boat and we heard that, you know, and our parents are coming and you know, somebody's grandmother's coming. And I'm like, wait, what do you mean? And not only did she not walk, they said, you have to get her out of the dorm as soon as possible.
- [18:28]
D
So basically, like, which again, as I. Like. Which speaks to what I was saying earlier about, like, it's different leaving because I'm not gonna see these people. So I didn't get. Like, there was a dance. It wasn't prize day. It wasn't that night. Prize day was the following. Not even the next day. It was.
- [18:43]
C
No, no, it was the next day. Left Saturday. Yeah.
- [18:46]
D
Okay, so it was the next day. And so that Night. We had like a dance or whatever and they were like, nope, you can't go. They were like, we're removing you from campus and move immediately. So I wasn't even moved out. Like I had to move all my stuff out. I couldn't say goodbye to anyone. I also didn't want anyone to know that this had happened. So I just like didn't know what to do. They sent out a school wide email to every single faculty explaining the situation, like in detail. So then everyone knew. So then all the kids knew. It was terrible. Like literally so bad. And I had to move everything out of my room. I didn't get to say goodbye to anyone. It was the worst, probably like three days of my entire life.
- [19:17]
C
Terrible. And you know who was not happy? Becca and Olivia. It was me. I was not happy.
- [19:22]
B
Of course not.
- [19:23]
C
I spent, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars sending her to this boarding school. And then in the last day, they. She got her diploma, like sent in.
- [19:32]
D
The mail, mailed it to me. They wouldn't even give it to me.
- [19:34]
C
She wasn't allowed to go to graduation. And the thing that broke my heart was seeing on Instagram the picture of all the kids in there. The girls wear white dresses and have roses and the boys are in their jackets. And Shelby has been completely erased after three years of having a perfect, like, great grades, wonderful grades, good college, perfect record, not one disciplinary problem. And she's been completely erased from the class of 2024. It was horrible. And I will never forgive the head of school for doing that. Never ever. There's a person in this book who, where we take a little. Some digs, some fun digs.
- [20:12]
A
You're not worried about offending anyone?
- [20:14]
C
I don't care if he sues me. I would be, I would be thrilled.
- [20:17]
D
I would be too.
- [20:18]
B
Never cross a novelist. I think that's the lesson here.
- [20:22]
C
That's what I said. Like when, you know, my ex husband and I were on the phone with him and I said, you do realize.
- [20:29]
A
We'Re writing a book also, it's senior week. Like boarding school or not. I still remember. It's like everyone is checked out. Everyone is silly. It's just, I don't know. That's. I'm sorry. That's so disappointing.
- [20:44]
C
She told the truth. She did not turn, you know, she could easily have turned in the other girls that were over there. She said, not one word. You know, they said, or there are other girls there. And Toby was like, I'm not, I'm not telling you any names. Like that it, like everything was honorable about it and it's just very disappointing.
- [21:00]
B
That just feels like the punishment doesn't match the crime. To me, like, that feels like he was on a power trip.
- [21:05]
C
Yeah, 100%.
- [21:06]
D
I think it was definitely just sort of to send them out. It was at the end of his first year. I think he was just sort of like used me as. Send a message.
- [21:12]
C
Yeah.
- [21:13]
B
So now we know that there is some real life inspiration in this book. But Ellen, for you, this was your first time in a minute kind of creating a whole new world outside of Nantucket. Like, how did you decide what to bring in from Shelby's real life boarding school? Like, what we were making up? Like, what was the process like? Because, you know, I know from your Nantucket novels, I'm like, yeah, Fast Eddie sells the real estate and like Blonde Sharon's running the gossip mill. Like, you know, you explain it at some point, but they're kind of built into the world.
- [21:43]
C
Yeah. And that's exactly what it was. It was world building and starting over. And Shelby and I are in book two right now and where the world continues. But it's so. It was so much fun to have like a new canvas be like, okay, I'm now gonna. And I really used the hotel Nantucket as my sort of blueprint because in that novel, you know, you have, you know, the owner and the housekeeping and the, and the front desk and the manager and the guests. And so you have all these different people chit chatting from points of view. And I really wanted to build a world like that where we had everybody from the head of school, Audrey Robinson, down to, you know, the kids to the chef to. To Mr. James who drives around in the gate, or the head of security. Like, I wanted everybody to have a sort of a place in the universe and have it so well built that you want to be part of it.
- [22:35]
B
I have to admit, like, I was surprised. I didn't know what to expect when I went into reading the book. But it still feels so you. I was expecting, I think it to feel more ya. But for our listeners, the book is actually, I would say like 50, 50, if not 60, 40 between the adults and the students.
- [22:52]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:53]
B
So it doesn't feel like ya. And there's so much of like the Nantucket novel elements that make them special, like the food descriptions. The boarding school has a great chef that they've hired away from a private club in New York. The first person plural narration blocks the like brand name drops, the restaurant name drops. Like it feels very Ellen. Just in a different world.
- [23:16]
C
Exactly. And now that's what I tell people. Like, you Will, if you have enjoyed my novels in the past, this is. Right. It's in the same vein. It's just a different topic altogether. But, I mean, I love writing about food. So I said to Shelby, although The food at St. George's was not good, and I followed the Instagram of the company that did the food at St. George's for three years, and I watched every meal that they posted. I am like, we can't use any of this.
- [23:41]
D
One time they did pancakes with macaroni and hot dogs in them.
- [23:45]
B
No, just. Oh, God, gross.
- [23:48]
A
Someone took some creative license there, I guess.
- [23:51]
C
So I was like, we have to have a real chef. Because I wanted it to have, you know, you want. The thing that I wanted most about Tiffin is I wanted everybody that read the book to be like, I wish I had gone to school here, like, or, you know what I mean? It's aspirational. Like, I wish this was where I'd gone to school and make it really appealing. Even though all this, like, all the drama that's going on.
- [24:11]
B
Well, I think you. You did it. So diving into the editing process, I heard on the interview that Shelby, you did with your mom and Tim on her fantastic podcast book Speech. And beyond that, you were quite a tough editor on Dialogue. So, Ellen, I have to know who was the harshest editor, Shelby or your actual editor?
- [24:34]
C
Oh, God, Shelby. Shelby, you know, Reagan, who is my beloved darling editor at Little Brown, who I've been with for years and years and years. I mean, 20, 20 years. She's kind, Shelby, as you heard her read, the notes that she sent me was like, nope, no, absolutely not. This is so cringe. Please take this out immediately. Like, she just. It was humbling. It was humbling.
- [25:01]
D
But that's what's so nice about writing, like, with my mom is I can just sort of, like, I can just talk to her and I just can tell her how it is. I don't have to be around the bush at all.
- [25:09]
B
Nice for who?
- [25:11]
C
I know, right? I'm like, oh, only me.
- [25:13]
D
Yeah, but nice for her because I think it paid off. And just at least with the language.
- [25:18]
B
I would be terrified to be writing Gen Z slang. So, yeah, like, it is nice to have an in house editor in that regard.
- [25:24]
A
Speaking of, like, Gen Z language, was there a moment that your mom wrote something that sticks in your mind that you were like, I would never say that. My friends would never say this.
- [25:35]
D
There's literally so many that I can't even like, I think the one specifically. What did you say that was like, there was a lot of like, this is fire.
- [25:46]
C
So I tried. That's when she got so embarrassed because I was like, oh, this is fire. She was like, absolutely. Take that, please. Like, don't even attempt. Like, just take it out.
- [25:57]
D
So understood the assignment.
- [26:00]
C
Remember when you said that, like, do.
- [26:02]
B
I admit here that like I would have but like, yeah, that seems. That seems right.
- [26:07]
D
I think most people think that, but like, if anyone. My. That's also like what I was thinking. Like, people that I like, my age and my friends read this, they're going to be like, like, you did not, like, please tell me to write that. Which I did. So I had to like, even though I don't think it like translates as much to the adults reading it, I think at least for the kids, like they talks to them, you know.
- [26:29]
B
Oh, totally. And that's important. Like, this does feel like a novel that you could buddy read. I don't know how many teenagers are buddy reading novels with their mom, but like, that you could. Yeah, that like both could enjoy equally.
- [26:40]
A
Were both of you or either of you a fan of boarding school novels before this? And were there any books that you had in mind as sort of like inspiration or Guiding Lights of any kind?
- [26:53]
C
So I love. Give me any boarding school novel. Like one that I read recently was Rebecca Mackay's. I have Some Questions. Loved, loved, loved, loved it, loved it, loved it. But when I was younger, you know, 20 years ago, I read Prep by Curtis Sittenfeld, who's a dear friend of mine. She wasn't a friend of mine then. I didn't know her then, but I was like, this book is so good. Now I'm going to talk about Prep for a second. Prep is told from only one perspective, right. We're in Lee's head the entire time. So you're really just getting like a fairly narrow view, very specific narrow view of what the boarding school is. Although I have to say I think that book is an absolute masterclass. I love everything about it. But I was very intentional when we went into this. Like there was going to be a hierarchy. There was going to be like many points of view and like real world building, as we've said. And then for Shelby's junior paper, her thesis paper, she chose a separate piece, which is another book I read in high school and absolutely loved. Set at a boys boarding school during the second World War. And there's not one woman in that book, I read it. I reread it with Shelby, and I'm like, okay, so we definitely want to have, like, a school where women are in charge, right? So both the head of school and the director of admissions, Audrey Robinson and Cordelia Spinner, who I absolutely love, are. They are sort of running the school. And that was very, very important to me.
- [28:17]
B
And, Shelby, I saw you nodding when your mom said prep. Are you a fan of boarding school books as well? Are you like, I lived it. I don't need to read it.
- [28:25]
D
I mean, honestly, like, people have been asking me what I kind of read to research, and my answer is, like, to research for, like, writing this book. I wasn't reading boarding school books. I was reading my mom's books because it was important to me to make it as seamless as possible and write in her style, which I've said before. Like, I think that we sound very similar, because that's what I've. I've been reading her book since I was in sixth grade. Like, that's what's like, sort of formed my writing style. And so I think that that made it a lot easier to write because I was writing very similarly to her. So, no, I haven't really been reading. I read a separate piece that was, like. It also wasn't intentional that it was a boarding school. It just happened to be that way. And then I loved it. And also, Dead Poet Society is, like, my favorite movie ever. And so that also love, but also, like, all men. So, yeah.
- [29:13]
B
You know what I was thinking of so much when I was reading this is Gossip Girl because there's a new app that comes onto campus called Zip Zap, where there's anonymous gossip that's getting posted. Did either of you watch the show or read the books?
- [29:26]
D
I mean, I watched Gossip Girl for the first time in third grade.
- [29:29]
B
Oh, wow.
- [29:29]
C
I think I watched it. Didn't I watch it with you? I did. I watched it with you.
- [29:33]
D
We lived in Lily Street. It was very formative for me. That was, like, my show.
- [29:36]
B
Well, I loved the original Gossip Girl, and then I was so excited when it got rebooted, but then so let down by the execution of the reboot.
- [29:43]
D
I actually do. I was, like, too scared.
- [29:44]
C
I watched. I watched part of the reboot. I mean, it wasn't to the quality of the first.
- [29:49]
B
It wasn't at all. And they. They looped the teachers and more as characters. And when I was reading the Academy, my brain just lit up and I was like, yes. Not that they're related entities But I was like, this is the redemption that we needed for the original Gossip Girl.
- [30:02]
C
Correct. Correct. Because that, that was the thing. Because, like, the, the first Gossip Girl is really student oriented. Then they try in season two to bring the teachers in and they don't do a good job. I agree with you. Don't have sympathy for any of them. Like, there's no connection really with the teachers. And that was sort of all in my head when I was writing because I was like, you know, I also have an adult audience, so I definitely wanted there to be like, adult perspectives on what this is like.
- [30:30]
B
Yeah. And I think that's so unique versus a lot of the boarding school genre is. You know, I read a lot of, like, prep school mysteries that come from the kid point of view. So I thought that was really interesting that you looped in so many different points of view, both the administrators and then also some of the parents as well, to give kind of different perspectives.
- [30:47]
C
Yeah, the parents was there. There is one short section of the parents, and I thought it was important. Well, I mean, part of it was self serving because I'm like, I have to have a say here. Like the parents who are footing the bill, like, they have to have a say, but it also like, informs the kids because then you're like, okay, this is what they're dealing with at home.
- [31:07]
B
Totally. So you mentioned earlier in the interview that you're working on book two. Is this a two book series? Are there potentially even more? Like, what are we looking at here?
- [31:17]
C
I would like to say it's a two book series. Shelby, what did you say yesterday?
- [31:22]
D
I really want to do a college one.
- [31:24]
B
Oh, fun.
- [31:25]
D
Not necessarily even the same characters, although that would work as well. But I just like being college. The stories are even better. They're like, there's more. There's so much content that I just want to put out there.
- [31:39]
B
So potentially spin off or.
- [31:41]
C
Yeah, new collab, her own spin off. Because as we know, maybe after this.
- [31:46]
D
I'll be ready to.
- [31:47]
C
Mom is done. Yeah.
- [31:49]
B
Well, talk to us about the adaptation of this because you, you spoke earlier. And Ellen, I'm curious to know if there's any news on any of your other adaptations too, because I think we were all so excited to see the perfect couple come to screen. And it feels like it just like opened the floodgates to your TV era.
- [32:04]
C
Yeah. So about a year ago, in fact, probably exactly a year ago, Shelby and I were on nonstop phone calls and zooms. This book, really? And it was. The timing was good because the Perfect couple had just come out and had done so well. And then. And then I sent this book to my Hollywood agents and we talked to everybody and there was a little bit of a bidding war, which is always good. And Shelby and I ended up at a. I can't. We can't announce it yet, but we ended up at a major streamer and we have a showrunner. Writer. Showrunner who wrote a show that I'm sure you guys have seen. Everybody in the universe has seen it. And so. Yeah, and it should be announced right around the time the book comes out, or so I'm told. So we won't have to keep it a secret that much longer. But that's exciting. As for my other work, right this instant on Nantucket, there are 275 people from Universal Peacock filming Five Star Weekend here on Nantucket.
- [33:01]
B
Oh, wow.
- [33:02]
C
They filmed in LA for three months and then wrapped there. And everybody came to Nantucket. They're going to be here for a month filming. Jennifer Garner is here. I met with her. I went on set Wednesday and had a really nice chat. She's of course. Do I even need to say the loveliest human being? And I just really adore her. And Gemma Chan, Chloe Zvigny, Regina Hall, Darcy Carden. Like the Timothy Oliphant's in it. Like, the cast is so elite. And they're all going to be on Nantucket for the next month filming.
- [33:34]
B
Oh, I cannot wait for this. And do you have any update on when that's slated to come out?
- [33:39]
C
I believe it will come out late May, early June.
- [33:41]
B
Oh, my gosh. So fun.
- [33:43]
C
That's the hope. And then, you know, I have in development. 28 summers is in development. Hotel Nantucket is in development. Paradise series is in development. Swan Song is in development for season two of the Perfect Couple.
- [33:57]
B
I feel like you're working on one of these or maybe something completely different with Jenna Bush Hager. Which can you say which one?
- [34:03]
C
That is Paradise.
- [34:05]
B
Okay. I'm so excited.
- [34:06]
C
Paradise is the St. John series. Yeah, the St. John series is in development with Jenna.
- [34:11]
B
So fun.
- [34:12]
C
So fun.
- [34:13]
A
I actually, I was at the Nashville event that you were at. I went to it with my mom.
- [34:18]
C
Okay.
- [34:19]
A
So, yeah, I was there with my mom. And the thing that stuck out from your interview of many Things was that you have an idea that has been percolating about a novel that follows people in an MFA program. And in the years after. Correct me if I'm wrong with the details. Is that still in your. I know you're said you're retiring for good. But I. But I don't know if we believe you. But how are you thinking about that project and potentially other writing projects going forward?
- [34:47]
C
That's a great question. So I am thinking about a book called the Novelists and I will not be taking a contract. So a little bit of inside baseball. The way my career has worked since I think my second book is that I'm offered a contract, like a two book deal and then I have to deliver two books. A lot of writers, they write the book first and then they sell it. And that has only been the case with me with my first book. So since my second novel on, I've had a contract and then I've just had to deliver the novels. This is so great because it means that the publishers have faith in me and I'm so incredibly honored and humbled. But it puts me on the hook because I'm definitely signed four book deals and then I have to come up with four, like, really good book ideas. So where I am now once Shelby and I finished book two is I am going to write the Novelists at my own pace and then sell it to my publisher when it's finished, as opposed to taking a contract for it and having to deliver. So doing it that way is going, I think is going to be the thing that changes my life because I'll just be able to write it at my own pace and I'm not on anybody's schedule and it's not going to be a summer book. So I don't, you know, I'm just going to write it, take my time. My guess is it's going to sound just like every other Ellen Hildebrand novel in style. I can, I cannot imagine writing any other way, but that will be a big, A big difference for me. Me.
- [36:12]
B
Well, good for you taking the time. I mean, I respect the hell out of the two book a year schedule you were on. I cannot fathom that.
- [36:19]
C
So, yeah, it's crazy.
- [36:20]
A
It's crazy.
- [36:22]
D
I didn't even know this. Now I'm excited.
- [36:24]
C
Yeah, That'll be what you're writing the college book, Shelby? Yeah.
- [36:28]
D
You never told me.
- [36:30]
A
Well, before we let you go, one more question. It's an easy one. What are you both reading right now?
- [36:35]
D
I'm reading A Thousand Acres. What's that, Gene Smiley?
- [36:39]
C
Have you not read A Thousand Acres, Becca? Because if you haven't, it's one of my all, all time. Oh, it came out before you were born. No, it probably came out in 93. I think it came out 92 or 93. It is by Jane Smiley. It is absolutely fantastic. It takes place on an Iowa farm. It's a retelling of King Lear. So a man owns a farm, he's got three daughters. And it is unbelievably great. One of my favorite books of all time. I am reading a book called Dominion by Addie Kitchens. Has anyone heard of this book? No, Because I'm here to tell you it is freaking fantastic. It's published by fsg, I believe. It is set in a small town in Mississippi, late 90s, 2000ish. And it's about a reverend of a small Baptist, primarily black church. And he has five sons. But the novel is told between two points of view. His youngest son is called Wonder Boy and he does everything beautifully. And he's the football star and he's smart and he's all these things. It's told from the point of view of Wonder Boy's girlfriend and Wonder Boy's mother, so the reverend's wife. It is absolutely, like, beautifully written and evocative. And it's like To Kill a Mockingbird and Toni Morrison. Like, it's that sort of genre. I mean, it is so, so good. So highly recommended, Dominic. I'm convinced.
- [38:02]
A
Yeah, same two amazing suggestions.
- [38:05]
B
We'll all be looking that up. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us. And as this episode airs, you are both heading out on tour, or I think maybe Shelby, an abbreviated tour to promote this book. Where can people find information about that?
- [38:20]
C
So my Instagram is probably always the best way to figure out what I'm doing. Shelby is gonna come with me. She's flying to New York on Monday night, and we're going on the news CBS with Gayle King on Tuesday. And then we fly from there straight to Miami to do an event at Shelby School, the University of Miami. And then I go on the road for two weeks. So fun dates are all on my Instagram.
- [38:43]
D
Yes, my Instagram is Shelby K. Cunningham, but it's not like, really book content. It's more of, like, me sorority Miami content. You can still check it out.
- [38:53]
B
Go there too.
- [38:55]
A
Thank you both so much.
- [38:56]
C
You're so funny. Thank you, guys. You're the best. Thank you. Bad on paper.
- [39:00]
D
Thank you.
- [39:01]
B
Let's take an ad break.
- [39:07]
A
This episode is sponsored by ritual. As Becca and I talked about last week, this season is really all about getting back into a cozy, boring routine. And for me, that means little things like getting into bed earlier and cooking more meals for myself at home. And it also means taking my Vitamins Ritual's essential for women 18 plus multivitamin isn't exactly a salad and a pill, but it is formulated to help you fill key nutrient gaps in your diet. To me, it feels like a very small way to take a little bit of extra care of myself.
- [39:38]
B
Ritual is essential for women 18 + multi contains nine key nutrients and two delayed release capsules designed for optimal absorption per day. I love that they're designed to be gentle on the stomach with a minty essence in every bottle that helps make taking your multivitamins actually enjoyable. Instead of something that feels like a chore, I take mine after I brush my teeth in the morning. I feel like it's like a double shot of mint mint then mint every day. Have taken other vitamins that literally taste like licking the sea floor and I really like that these are both a gel cap which I find easier to take, and also that it has that mint taste so it's not an automatic gag for me.
- [40:19]
A
So it's not the sea floor not ideal. I know what you mean though. Instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Get 25% off your first month only at ritual.com batonpaper start ritual or add essential for women 18 + to your subscription today. That's ritual.com badonpaper for 25% off. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. One thing about me is that when I am feeling anxious or depressed about something, I will almost always talk about it with my friends. Or that's my first instinct anyway. I tend to process things throughout through talking and my friends are all great listeners, but I often have to remind myself that they are not therapists. And knowing that I have therapy every week means that I am better about processing my feelings in the moment and then bringing them up in therapy later instead of blabbing about them to anyone who will listen right away before I can actually, you know, try to understand them myself.
- [41:20]
B
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- [41:44]
A
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- [42:08]
B
All right, Olivia, into some n matter here. What are you obsessed with this week?
- [42:13]
A
I am obsessed with these taper candles that I have put in my bedroom. So for. For, like, I don't know, two years now, maybe, I have had these. I guess they're kind of like sconces. They're four taper candles. You hang them on the wall. They're like brass. They're really pretty. But I've had fake taper candles in them for two years that I use for Christmas, mostly because I was, you know, afraid I would light real candles and then forget about them and then die in my bedroom.
- [42:41]
B
That's where I'm at. Yeah, I'm still there. Are you lighting them? Are they just for show?
- [42:46]
A
So I had the fake ones there forever, and for a while I was using them. They were fine. They look kind of real. I would use the remote, but then the batteries died. I never replaced them. And finally I was just like, these look cheesy and ridiculous. Let me just put. I got a bunch of new, different colored taper candles over the weekend. Let me just try real candles. Because I was. I've been getting in bed really early and reading for a long time, and I was like, let me create this nice little moment for myself. I'm really trying to. Just after I got sick, I was like, I need to just take care of myself for a moment here. So I was like, I'm going to pamper myself and light these candles. And now I am obsessed with lighting these candles every night while I read. It just. It is so vibey. I'm looking straight at them, so it's like I never really forget that they're there or I will die in a fire. And one day this clip will be played when people realize that it was the candles that did it. But for now, I'm feeling very responsible about it. Obviously, Jake is here, so he's like, you know, remembering if I. I don't really. The other thing is, like, I don't fall asleep reading or anything like that, you know, so there's no risk of that. But I just love it. It's a vibe.
- [43:51]
B
I'm happy. You're happy. Living on the edge.
- [43:55]
A
It is a little bit on the edge. I'm. It's very bold of me. Well, what are you obsessed with?
- [44:00]
B
I am obsessed with saison miniskirts. So I think my legs are tanner than they have ever been after two back to back beach vacations or at least tanner than they've been in the in my adult life. And my current kind of transition into fall outfit template is miniskirt and a T shirt. And I ended up buying a saison houndstooth miniskirt. It's like a wool, it feels a little 70s but I wore it the other night. I was obsessed with my outfit. I felt so good in it. So I came home and I ended up buying another one and I bought a brown suede miniskirt from them. And I am loving this outfit template.
- [44:43]
A
What shoes are you wearing them with? Because I really like the idea of a miniskirt, especially a suede or houndstooth with a leather boot. But I don't know if you've gone there yet.
- [44:54]
B
No, I've not gone there. I have intentions to go there but I think that right now it is a little too warm still to go there.
- [45:00]
A
So.
- [45:01]
B
So I did my outfit the other night with like a Mary Jane flat.
- [45:06]
A
Cute.
- [45:07]
B
I mean very apropos for this episode. It felt very schoolgirl.
- [45:11]
A
I. It sounds adorable.
- [45:12]
C
I love that.
- [45:13]
B
So can't stop buying miniskirts for the you know, one and a half month window that a wool or suede miniskirt is appropriate.
- [45:20]
A
Well tights, you know, don't forget tights over the knee boots.
- [45:23]
B
It's true.
- [45:24]
A
You know it's true. But make it work.
- [45:26]
B
What about reading? What are you reading?
- [45:28]
A
I read and finished Culpability by Bruce Hulsinger which like I touched on, I've been seeing everywhere probably cause it was an Oprah's Book Club pick. This is. It's kind of like a mystery but it's all about AI really. It's a family who is in a self driving car and the 17 year old son in the family is driving and they end up getting into an accident and two people in the other car die. And so the story is all about what happens after that accident and who is at fault and how AI plays into all of this. Okay. The first half of the book I was like 5 stars. I'm obsessed with this. I could not put it down. It reads so fast. The writing is really good. And the second half I was just like I don't know. I don't really mind if I can predict a twist. But it was like every single one I was like yes, yes. Okay. That seemed obvious to me. And I also just. I don't know. There is this. I. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it. They lost. They lost me in the second half a little bit, but the first half was definitely five stars. The second half, I would say, was more like two and a half.
- [46:36]
B
Oh, wow.
- [46:37]
A
But, like, overall, I would say still a strong. I don't do enough numbers, but I would say still like a strong 3.5 for me. So, like, it wasn't bad. And there's certainly a lot of themes to discuss. It's, like, very interesting from an AI standpoint, but also, at some points, I think it veered. It was almost so much like philosophical talk about AI because the mom in the book also is a philosophical expert on artificial intelligence. And at a certain point, I was like, but I'd rather just be reading a mystery. But if you like thrillers that pack a lot of punch in terms of themes and cultural moments, I think you will like it. Okay, what have you read?
- [47:20]
B
Well, I finished the Academy, as we. Well, not that we discussed my finishing it, but we discussed the book in this episode. I loved it. I'm excited for book two, but it's not such a huge cliffhanger that you're gonna be angry that you should wait and not read it now. So, yeah, there's some loose ends. I'm excited to see where it goes. But mostly what I've been reading is just my own book over and over. I'm very excited to turn it in and get some time to read other people's books.
- [47:51]
A
Don't you love that when you've read it so many times, you're like, I would rather be doing anything else in the world.
- [47:57]
B
Yes, absolutely. But there are also so many things that I'm catching that I'm like, there's a word missing in this sentence. I've read this book hundreds of times. Not an exaggeration. How is there a word missing in this sentence?
- [48:11]
A
It's hard to catch everything.
- [48:12]
B
Yeah.
- [48:13]
A
And it's just. It's just you. So it's just you looking at it right now. So, I mean, there are gonna be words missing. I'm sure it's great.
- [48:21]
B
Well, time will tell. But in the meantime, tell us about what we're reading for book club.
- [48:27]
A
We are reading Notes on youn Sudden Disappearance by Alison S. Pack. This is the author of the Wedding People and the book that she wrote before the Wedding People. Like the Wedding People. It is dark, funny, emotional, heartwarming, heartbreaking. It's about a family with two sisters and what happens when a tragedy breaks up the family and all of the repercussions of that. It's great. I love it. You will laugh, you may cry. And yeah, I hope you join us.
- [49:01]
B
I've been seeing raves about this in our formerly Geneva group that I no longer know how to refer to because it has been bought by Bumble. And on my phone it is called bff, but on my computer it is still called Geneva. So in the artist formally known as Geneva, I've been seeing raves from our listeners. So I'm very excited to read this once I finish my book. And if you would like to chat with us about how much you're enjoying notes on your sudden disappearance. The academy, whether Pedro Pascal is a bird or a potato, any, any topic, really, you can join us in the Facebook group under Batonpaper Podcast. We're on Instagram @batonpaper podcast, we have a Geneva BFF chat room group. If you aren't in it, maybe now is not the time to try to find it. But you know, come join us there if you can find it under badonpaper Podcast.
- [50:00]
A
Link's on the show Notes.
- [50:02]
B
Oh, good.
- [50:02]
C
Yeah, great.
- [50:04]
B
I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is @beccafreeman substack.com.
- [50:12]
A
I am on Instagram and Substack under Olivia Mentor. And you can pre order my forthcoming book, Little One right now. And I would be really, really grateful if you did.
- [50:23]
B
See you next week.
- [50:24]
A
Bye.