Grace Is Back! (With Big Book News!)

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Grace Is Back! (With Big Book News!)
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Date: March 18, 2026
Special Guest: Grace Atwood

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Overview

In this lively, heartfelt episode of Bad On Paper, Becca and Olivia welcome back their beloved former co-host, Grace Atwood, for her most exciting update yet: she's writing a thriller novel! The conversation features bookish highs and lows, candid peek-behind-the-scenes author talk, and warm friendship vibes. The trio dives into creativity, writing struggles, evolving careers, and, as always, a whirlwind of reading recommendations.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Audio Chaos & Catch-up (00:17)

• Becca and Olivia comment on their suboptimal audio conditions, sharing laughs about construction noise, hotel ambiance, and visiting friends.
• “What quality audio experience we're delivering today.” — Becca, [00:53]

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2. Highs & Lows: Life Updates with the Hosts (01:16)

• Highs: Both hosts celebrate “fake spring”—the first warm stretch of weather—with outdoor reading and renewed creative energy.
  • “To open the windows and doors and just have the house air out was like truly taking just the biggest, deepest breath.” — Olivia, [01:59]
• Lows: Olivia recalls a sleepless night after a book event, blaming caffeine overload and hotel beds. Becca opens up about anxiety over early reviews for her upcoming book Back Where We Started starting to appear on NetGalley and Edelweiss.
  • “I'm just like, almost letting other people dictate how I feel about it, which is so bad. Bad, bad, so bad, so bad.” — Becca, [08:13]

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3. Grace Atwood Returns: Catching Up & Book News (16:36)

Grace’s Life Lately

• Substack has overtaken Instagram as her main platform, reigniting love for long-form content.
• She’s in her “tri-coastal era”—frequenting NYC, LA, and seeing family in Charleston.
• High: Receiving a sentimental heirloom brooch from her mother. [20:15]
• Low: Being “stare at the wall” sick after a trip. [19:43]

Grace’s Book News (21:21-26:33)

• Announcement: Grace is writing a book—a thriller with “boarding school, rich kids behaving badly, beauty industry intrigue, antique jewelry, fashion, and rich adults behaving badly.” [52:08]
  • “It still feels very crazy to say this and I asked you guys if you felt this way because I feel like I'm lying when I tell people, but I'm writing a book.” — Grace, [21:25]
• She started drafting during a phone-less vacation in Provence, switching from rom-com to thriller when darker elements kept cropping up.
• “I just started writing and it was like, I don't know, like 20 pages just like came out of my body.” — Grace, [22:56]

On Sharing The Drafting Journey

• Grace wants to bring her audience along and hold herself accountable by sharing progress early, aiming for honesty about highs and lows.
  • “One of the reasons people like following me is that I'm really honest about like the highs and lows of life.” — Grace, [25:30]

Inspiration, Craft & Imposter Syndrome

• Obsessed with twists (“I need three!”), books by Frida McFadden and Colleen Hoover (for plot), and the enduring influence of Gone Girl.
• Writing advice: Her partner Jeff urges her to “just write and stop critiquing as you go.”
• “I'm 44, and I'm, like, getting back in touch with that side of my brain.” — Grace, [46:01]
• “I want to do things that scare me. ... It's fun to take a risk.” — Grace, [51:26]

Support from the Hosts

• Encouragement about “shitty first drafts” and the recursive nature of editing. “There isn't the easy button to be like, oh, let me skip the drafts 1 through 5 where it’s bad, and just, like, come right in at the part where it’s good. Like, you can’t.” — Becca, [40:38]

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4. Podcast Memories & Dream Guests (53:12)

• Upcoming milestone: 8 years of Bad On Paper!
• Favorite memories: live Gramercy Theater show, celebrity guests in their living rooms (“Sidney Crawford was in my living room!” [55:42]), influential book club episodes, and forming real friendships with guests like Ashley Spivey.
• Dream future guests: Ina Garten or Amy Poehler. (“Gauntlet thrown.” — Becca, [57:24])

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5. Book Adaptations & Celebrity Castings (58:06)

• Anticipating (nervously) the Verity adaptation (“I don't think it's gonna be good because of Dakota Johnson.” — Grace, [58:16])
• Noting Anne Hathaway’s dominance in book-to-film projects.
• Brief debate on Project Hail Mary and TBR overwhelm.

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6. Grace’s Best Books of 2026 So Far (60:21)

• In Her Defense by Philippa Malika — “really transportive... queer sexual tension... very well written.” [61:08]
• The Force of Such Beauty — “So good. So transportive. ... Smart and social commentary.” [62:14]
• Strangers — “The writing is magnificent...there's an old money element which I love.” [63:00]
• Honorable mentions: The Storm by Rachel Hawkins, Lady Tremaine (Cinderella retelling), Klara and the Sun by Kazuo Ishiguro.

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7. Podcast Closing Banter & Personal Obsessions (72:48)

• Becca’s obsession: the new Harry Styles album (“I really like American Girls. I really like Taste Back ... I'm having so much fun listening to the album.” [73:02])
• Olivia’s non-book obsession, but many book recs—romance (You Between the Lines), literary (Understory), and thrillers (Warning Signs).

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Memorable Quotes

• Grace: “I want to do things that scare me. ... You can do something before you feel ready, and it's fun to take a risk.” [51:26]
• Becca: “There isn't the easy button to be like, oh, let me skip the drafts 1 through 5 where it’s bad, and just, like, come right in at the part where it’s good. Like, you can’t.” [40:38]
• Olivia: “Writing a book is such an exercise in... knowing you're enjoying it and you're proud of it, and also knowing someone out there will dislike it... But, like, what is life about if not that? That's kind of all we have.” [50:09]
• Becca (on creative energy): “There's like, an energy to it where I just feel like I can't sit still. Like, I need to go do more stuff or be outside or create something!” [03:19]
• Grace (on her creative return): “I'm 44, and I'm, like, getting back in touch with that side of my brain.” [46:01]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|------------| | Audio banter & highs/lows begin | 00:17 | | Review anxiety & book process talk | 07:01 | | Grace joins show/catching up | 16:36 | | Grace’s book announcement | 21:25 | | Craft, process, creative advice | 27:03 | | Early plot & inspirations | 52:08 | | Podcast nostalgia & dream guests | 53:12 | | Book adaptation discussion | 58:06 | | Grace’s favorite recent reads | 60:21 | | End-matter: obsessions & book recs | 72:48 |

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, supportive, humorous, and deeply bookish. The hosts trade honest anxieties about creation and vulnerability, but always swing back to encouragement and friendship—from obsessively checking Goodreads to sharing jewelry from mom. The episode brims with warmth, inside jokes, and the ever-present banter about literary trends and pop culture.

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Closing

Grace’s return is both a celebration of creative risk-taking and a testament to friendship’s role in creativity. Whether you’re writing, reading, or just learning to try something new—a recurring theme is that you just have to start. If you love books, writing process talk, and real-life literary camaraderie, this episode is not to be missed.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[B]

And I'm Olivia, mentor.

[A]

And I have a new microphone and I hope it's working.

[B]

I can hear you. Good.

[A]

I also have more.

[B]

So we're halfway there.

[A]

I also have more background noise than usual. My friend Molly slept over and is in the other room taking calls, so I keep getting snippets of it and I hope you're not. There's also construction on the other side of me, so we're dealing with a lot of interference.

[B]

I am in a hotel room that sounds like there's some sort of a. Like a. I don't even know, a mechanical room next to me or something. So we have a lot happening.

[A]

What quality audio experience we're delivering today.

[B]

But I think that's the purpose of these mics, is that they filter out a lot, hopefully. But either way, yeah, we're here.

[A]

I feel like it is worth it because we have a perennial most in demand guest. Grace is back today and she has news.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

I'm so excited to catch up.

[A]

Me too. But before we talk to Grace, we could have invited her for highs and lows, and we didn't. We'll ask her what her high and low is in the interview. What is your high?

[B]

My high is that spring is coming. I finally believe. I didn't believe for a long time, but the snow melted this past week. We had two days in the 70s, which was honestly a little too much, too fast for me. I was like, shut your mouth. 60s would have been fine. I was sweating at night. I was like, I know I can't go from, like, my room being 58 degrees to 68 degrees. That's too much of a swing. I like a more gradual return to the season, but I think we're gonna get that. But anyway, I still enjoyed it. I was outside, was wearing short sleeves, reading on the porch. It was. Oh, my gosh, it was so wonderful to open the windows. To open the windows and doors and just have the house air out was like truly taking just the biggest, deepest breath. It was so nice. And I'm. I'm so ready for spring to come. And things are popping up like little snowdrops and crocuses, which is always a good sign of life. So, yeah, that was definitely my high.

[A]

It's also my high. Fake spring. I cannot tell you what it did for my mood. It's both the weather that was so nice. I was taking two a day walks. I would take one after lunch and then I would take one after I finished work for the day just to maximize my time outside. But then also daylight savings in the later sunsets has been transformational for me. That. Yes, yes, there's longer daylight. I was reading in my five year journal that historically around this time of year tends to be a very fertile creative period for me. Like, I tend to get a little manic around this time of year with the weather warming up with the sunshine and so I don't think it's hit yet. I definitely feel good, but I don't feel like I've been gripped by a creative force. But I'm really hoping that's coming for me next week.

[B]

Oh, I'm. I hope so too. I'm excited for you. I definitely know what you mean though. There's a. There's an energy to it where I just feel like I can't sit still. Like I need to go do more stuff or be outside or create something. Yeah, I. I get it.

[A]

What about on the low side?

[B]

I am living through my low, which is that. Well, on the bright side, I had a really lovely book event at Back Cove Books in Portland, Maine last night, drove up here. Such a cute four hour drive. So cute. And just such a great team. They do so much good for the community here and really, really happy to be back. I did the event with my friend Ali Hofkossic who just had a book come out called Too Blessed to Stress. So that was really great. My fifth grade teacher came.

[A]

I saw that. That's so great.

[B]

Sweet, thanks. Yeah, it was really special. But yesterday I had the four hour drive, which I really like driving, so that's not too bad. But I was feeling really tired, so I had my morning coffee. I had then a shot of espresso before I left the house. Then I had a large Diet Coke from McDonald's and then I was still tired, so then I got an iced coffee and I got here and I was like, gosh, I'm still feeling kind of tired. I did the event and then I got back and I was like, oh no. It was like the caffeine, the adrenaline, the high of the event just coursing through my body. I think I fell asleep at 4.

[A]

No.

[B]

And I had to wake up and write the ads and do this episode and it was a battle. So it was just one of those horrible sleeps where you know, you have to get up and then it makes

[A]

you more anxious and then you can't fall asleep because you're anxious about how much sleep you'll get.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, I'm Familiar.

[B]

But I got everything done. I got some yogurt from downstairs. I have a nice latte and it is a bright sunny day, which is always the best for driving and driving home. So it's Friday. We're going to have this nice conversation with Grace. I'm going to drink more coffee probably, and the cycle may continue, but at least I'll be home in my bed tonight. So I think that helps. I just. I usually have a lot of trouble sleeping in hotels on the road, so.

[A]

Yeah, only semi related. Follow up question. What were you listening to on your car ride?

[B]

Oh, I listened to a lot. So I listened to about an hour and a half of Ali's audiobook. I had read it, but I wanted to brush up, which was a full cast, so love that. Then I listened to the latest episode of Glamorous Trash where they were recapping the Lindy west memoir, which is getting so much attention now. I don't know if you've been following the discourse. That was great. I enjoyed it so much. I listened to a little bit of the latest Pen Pals episode and then I listened to the Annabelle Dinda, her latest album, who I talked about last week with her song. I've gotten really into her. So it was like a smattering of things. Yeah, and a little hip hop in between.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

So four hours. You can get a lot in.

[A]

Have you listened to Harry Styles new album yet?

[B]

Not in full. That might be American Girls. Yep. Yeah, I did watch for some reason last night in my lack of sleep, I found myself watching his first X Factor audition. Oh, it starts cute.

[A]

Where he wins in the. In the bakery. Yeah.

[B]

And he sings Train.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's horrible. Yeah, I mean like it's really bad. And then I watched some of the first One Direction performances. Anyway, this is where I was at 3am last night. Anyway, I will get to the new album. I've heard it's really good. What's your low?

[A]

It's a high and a low. It's not a full low.

[B]

That was mine too. So, you know, it works out.

[A]

I've come down with a slight case of review anxiety. So I found out maybe like a week ago that my forthcoming book Back Where We Started is up on NetGalley and it's up on Edelweiss, which are websites for book reviewers, booksellers, librarians, media to get early copies of a book. And I have no control over approvals there. It's totally my publisher. I'm not in charge whatsoever. But some people, a small Group of people are starting to read my book and I thought I had more time. I thought I was in the wonderful Schrodinger's book period where I can talk about it, we can be excited about it, but nobody can read it. And I know I shouldn't. But I've been keeping an eye on reviews and they're all positive so far. They've all been so lovely. There's only a handful. There's like five. And they've all been five stars. I have my perfect little five star rating and I know that I should quit while I'm ahead, but I'm not going to. I'm going to keep reading until I get my feelings hurt, I think is what I assume will happen. But I already feel the compulsion of refreshing it multiple times a day to see if there's more. And every time I refresh, I get this nervous stomach feeling of, will this be the one? And this book was so hard for me. And I don't think I have a strong view of the forest through the trees. And so I wish I had more internal conviction of, like, this is better than my first book. Like, I love the characters, I love the story, but I'm so lost in the sauce. And I'm just like, almost letting other people dictate how I feel about it, which is so bad. Bad, bad, so bad, so bad.

[B]

Turn back, turn back.

[A]

I know, I know, but I get it. And I get it just because of certain things that happened during this process. Like, I just feel really insecure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so this is such a. I feel like I'm naked in Times Square.

[B]

I totally get that. I. Yeah, I. I mean, I understand that compulsion so, so much. So here's the question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How much do your feelings have to be heard to stop? I mean, I think we're gonna say that it's gonna be five stars till October, but this being the world, like, what is the line? Is it gonna be like the first three star, like, I'm out of here, or.

[A]

I think it's the first one or two star with the review that, like, says that I'm a shitty writer or, you know, something like that?

[B]

Well, I don't think that happened.

[A]

And that's inevitable. It's inevitable.

[B]

I think people on NetGalley, from what I've gathered, now that I am on NetGalley, like, requesting books more seem to be reasonable, you know, it doesn't seem like a where they're out for blood kind of thing. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I Haven't spent that much time in reviews.

[A]

No, I agree with that.

[B]

Are you going to be perusing all the review sites? Will you be also refreshing Goodreads? Oh, I am already on Goodreads.

[A]

I'm already on Goodreads. So last time I read Goodreads reviews up until publication, because I was so desperate, I was trying to read the Tea Leaves. I wanted to know what people were saying about it. I'm hoping I can cut myself off sooner this time. Like, I really do. This is so terrible. But I really do think that once I get the first one that hurts my feelings, not to encourage anyone to leave that one.

[B]

Yeah, don't do that.

[A]

You know, I can say, okay, there's one bad one, there's however many good ones, my feelings are hurt. I'm gonna not read. Yeah, it's so unhealthy as I say this, that, like, that's the line. But I. I really think it is.

[B]

It's different for everyone and every author, I think. So. I mean, you've just gotta figure out what works best for you. But I don't know that we aren't

[A]

working best, but it feels.

[B]

And we've got Tulsa.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I think that's actually more than, like, the actual reviews, good or bad. The compulsion, I think, feels really bad. Like, just the. The mental itch to keep doing it and keep doing it, keep doing it is uncomfortable, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But hard to ignore.

[A]

And it's also so bad to have my locus of approval for this book external.

[B]

It is. I will agree with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's also hard, like you said, when you've just been with it for so long and it's been through so many different versions where you're like, who knows what this is? Yeah, it's difficult. You just want someone to tell you, you know, okay, this is real. This is a thing. And there's never an amount of that. That's enough. Sometimes I think, well, I was talking

[A]

to my friend Laura Henken, who's also an author, one of my favorite authors. She asked if I had ever had a friend be my review friend so that somebody goes and checks reviews and sends me select feedback from good reviews so I can shield myself from negative reviews, but still get to see what people like about it and get that dopamine boost from people giving positive feedback. And I haven't done that before, and she offered to be that person.

[C]

So.

[B]

So is that going to be your strategy after you quit? Yes or no?

[A]

Exactly. No. It should be now, but it's going to be after I quit. Okay. Wait. Can I tell you. So I was reading some of your reviews. Can I tell you one that is not qualitative whatsoever but made me laugh so hard?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Somebody said cult leader made me think of RFK Jr.

[C]

What?

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

I just thought that was really funny.

[B]

Do you think they mean like the actual historical figure or as he is portrayed in Love Story? No, no, no. Because I haven't seen it.

[A]

No. Current Health and Human Services Secretary, RFK

[B]

Jr. Oh, RFK Jr. I thought you said JFK Jr. RFK Jr. Okay, well that I get more and that is actually accurate.

[A]

I know. I thought it was so funny.

[B]

Oh my God. That's hilarious. Wow. That's funny. Thank you. That is the tidbit I need.

[A]

I know it's like not qualitative whatsoever

[B]

but like, oh man, that's so funny. I was like JFK Jr. I guess he is sort of charming. Yeah. RFK. Yep. Good. Amazing. I didn't know. I was a little nervous. I.

[A]

No, I would never. I would never tell you anything actually review y but I just thought that was funny. That if I were your review friend, I would definitely have forwarded you that.

[B]

It's very funny. I will carry that that reference with me. So thank you.

[A]

All right, with all that said, should we take a quick ad break and get to grace?

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

So today's guest doesn't really need an introduction, but just in case, we have Grace Atwood with us, who was the co host of this podcast for the first four years of its existence. She's the writer behind the stripe and the.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

What's your substack called? Why Am I Blanking? Scratchpad and the Scratch Pad Substack. Oh. Welcome back, Grace. I feel like you're also probably our most requested guest.

[B]

Yes, welcome.

[C]

Oh, that's really nice. Thank you. I'm really happy to be back and that you guys wanted to have me on here to talk about this news.

[A]

Well, yeah, you have some news, but I realized as we were recording highs and lows separately, we should have invited you for the whole thing. But before we get into your news, like, I don't know, just catch us up. You haven't been here in probably, I want to say, like a year and a half years.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, it's been a minute. It's definitely been a little bit.

[A]

No pressure, but just what's been going on the last year and a half?

[B]

What's been your high for the last two years?

[C]

Oh, my God, That's. This is high pressure, guys.

[B]

No, no.

[C]

Like, I'm just, like, living my life with my cats in my little house.

[A]

I just saw Jamie come down the stairs behind you.

[C]

Oh, he. He will perform for us in the. In the staircase. He clim up the. The top and Just like, he loves super form. What have I been doing? I think that the biggest thing is that my business has changed a lot and that substack has kind of become the most important part as opposed to Instagram and my. I mean, my blog is still going, but I feel like substack has really taken over, which I love because I love long form content, I love writing and sharing, and I feel like it's a better fit for me than like all these, like, short term. And I'm still on Instagram, obviously, but that's been a nice little industry change. And then my life is like, pretty much the same. I have my cats, I love staying home. I see my parents a lot. I'm in LA every month to see Jeff. I've gotten to go up to New York a few times and see you.

[A]

Becca, I know you're very much in your tri coastal. Not that Charleston and New York are on different coasts, but I feel like you're. You're in your, like, bop up for a day era, which I love. I feel like I've already seen you twice this year and we already have the next one on the calendar and I'm living for it.

[C]

Yeah, it's been nice. I feel. Sometimes I get overwhelmed, but I'm really trying to do a better job at getting back. I just think there's a creative energy in New York that there isn't. It's not that it's lacking. Charleston has other great things, but I feel like when we were at that dinner with Jenna and all those authors, I was just. I left. So inspired. And then obviously the bon Bon candy dinner was super special because we love bonbon love.

[B]

It sounds like a really good balance of everything, all the good things.

[A]

I feel like it's too much to ask what your high and your low is for the last year and a half, but just in the last week, what would you say your high and your low is if you were here for the upfront?

[C]

Well, it's kind of been a boring week because I was super sick and that's my low. I had like, I came back from LA and I just got like, the plague. Like, it was one of those things where I couldn't get out of bed. I was so sick.

[A]

Like, I know it sounds like you were like, stare at the wall sick, which is its own special kind of sick, where you're not even like, oh, let me. Let me watch some trashy TV sick.

[C]

No, you couldn't even watch because the headache was so bad.

[B]

Oh, that's the Worst.

[C]

So that was the low. The high is just starting to feel better. And I had dinner with my parents last night and my mom is so cute. There's this brooch that she has. It's got. It's like just a daisy made out of sapphires and opals and you know how I love jewelry. And she was like, oh, I've just been seeing how many brooches you've been wearing and I wanted you to have this.

[A]

And I was like, oh, Denise, I've

[C]

only loved this brooch for my whole life. Like, thank you. So not to make it about a material thing, but I got this brooch

[A]

that I'm obsessed with, but it's like a family heirloom.

[B]

It's special.

[A]

It's beyond just something you could buy.

[C]

I love that. Yeah, that's beautiful. The history of it.

[A]

Did you go to a restaurant or did you go to your parents house for dinner? And if so, what did your dad cook?

[C]

We went to a restaurant this time.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

There's this French restaurant, Maison, which is amazing. And we had a really good dinner there.

[A]

Delicious. Sorry, interrupted you.

[B]

It's a nice way to come out of sickness for sure.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Come back to life.

[C]

Yes. Olivia, my mom and I are so excited for your book talk and like a little over. I guess it'll be like a week from the day this drops or the Tuesday after this drops.

[B]

It's Tuesday the 23rd. Yeah, I'm really excited too. Thanks for coming. My. My parents will be there too, and they're very excited.

[C]

Oh, good.

[B]

And my mom's bringing her book club, so.

[A]

Oh, my God, Kim.

[B]

It'll be a fun little group.

[C]

A few of my friends are coming too, so you'll have a good crew.

[B]

Oh, I'm looking forward to seeing you.

[A]

Well, shall we jump into the deep end of your news?

[C]

Yes. So it still feels very crazy to say this and I asked you guys if you felt this way because I feel like I'm lying when I tell people, but I'm writing a book.

[A]

I'm so excited.

[B]

I know nothing about this. I know even less. So I want to know. Tell me. Tell us. Tell the listeners the whole journey of this, please.

[C]

So it started when I went to Provence this summer and I felt like I really stayed off my phone. I deleted Instagram for a whole week, which when you work in this business, it's like a big deal. And I felt like my creative juices kind of just like started to kick in and come back to life and I would just like. We had Activities. And we like went all over Provence and did shopping and things. But during the breaks I would just go, like sit in a cafe, have like sparkling water rose, and just sit and write like in a paper notebook with a pen. And I found this like, these characters kind of emerging. And I had this idea for like a more rom com style book actually. It was like going to be about this woman who is loosely inspired by myself. But like, if I had stayed in a past relationship and she's in her 50s and she's divorced and she doesn't have a career and she's kind of just like finding herself for the first time. And so I was kind of writing about this character. But the problem I had because, you know, I read so many thrillers and that's like, those are the books that I love most, is that it just kept getting dark and.

[A]

And you were like, why does she keep finding dead bodies in this romance?

[C]

I just like kept making her kind of bad. And then I had this other character I wanted to write and she's kind of bad too. And I had this epiphany over Christmas, which again, I feel like I do my best writing when I am not on social media, which is a going to be a real problem for me. I've got to get better boundaries with the Internet if I'm going to actually finish this book. I realized it's going to be a thriller. And I kind of had this whole idea and I just started writing and it was like, I don't know, like 20 pages just like came out of my body. And then I was like, oh, I'm definitely a pantser. Like, I'm just writing by the seat of my pants. Like, and then I was like, I don't know, I don't think I'm a panther. Because then I went to dinner with one of my friends and he grew up wealthy. And you know him, Nick. I was like, I had this idea where. And this isn't gonna happen in the book, so it's okay. But I wanted to have one of the characters steal somebody else's trust fund. And I was like, how would someone go about this because of a trust fund?

[A]

How could I commit financial crimes?

[C]

I was like, nick, I'm not gonna steal your trust fund, but can you tell me how someone would? And we had like a good laugh. And he was like, you can't really do that. You'd have to do like X, Y and Z. And they were all boring things that wouldn't really make for a plot. But he was like, well, what if you had her do this? And then we just sat there like, I was totally sober. I was, it was dry January and I was drinking like non alcoholic wine and he was having martinis and like we just like we made an outline in my iPhone and I woke up the next day and honestly, like half of it was pretty bad, but it was a really good foundation and it was good to get out of my brain and hear someone else's thoughts. And I feel like I between those thoughts and then like the last month and a half I've had, I've been working on it more. I've probably got like 70% of an outline done. So that's kind of where it started. But the overall premise is going to be.

[B]

Wait, before we get into plot, actually, can I ask you why you wanted to share it now? Like, why was it important to you to announce it?

[C]

So I think I want to bring my readers along on my journey as I'm writing and I think it'll be good motivation and also just accountability and also fun to talk about it. Like, I'm not going to give away the plot, but I thought about it and like, there's like a couple so many ways you can go about this. Like, I could just magically pop up one day and be like, oh, here's my book deal. But I don't think that's really me. I think that one of the reasons people like following me is that I'm really honest about like the highs and lows of life and that I share what I'm doing and I'm really honest and I'll be like writing an essay on my sub stack and I'll be talking about creativity or I'll talk about like a problem I'm coming up against and it's about writing a book. But then I feel like I'm lying. So I feel like I have this thing that is taking up a couple hours every day and I'm not sharing it and I'm just being vague.

[A]

So yeah, I hear what you're saying about the accountability. I think when I was writing the Christmas Orphans Club, sharing it with people, and I can't remember when specifically I shared it, how far along in the process I was, but I do feel like it was really good accountability and also made me feed off other people's excitement for it.

[C]

That's one of the other things I was thinking that like other people's excitement would be a good factor in helping to push me along, if that makes sense. I mean, hopefully people are excited. Hopefully they're not like, what the fuck is she doing?

[B]

Oh, I'm sure they will be.

[A]

I think they will be. I was. I was telling you before we got on here, I keep telling people. Not people who are gonna tell, but, like, I told my friend Molly who's staying with me, who knows you, and she was like, oh, that's so exciting. Like, it feels so natural in some ways because you've been such a thriller connoisseur for so many years that it's like, I can't wait to see what Grace writes for her own thriller. So I think people are going to be so excited who have, like, loved your book recs for years and also just loved following you.

[C]

I hope so.

[B]

And you've also been really open about, like, how important writing is to you for the past year or two on your. On your newsletter. So I feel like that will, you know, that will be a natural, like, jump for people. It'll make sense to them and they'll be excited.

[C]

Yeah. I think because of my substack essays, people think I'm, like, trying to write a memoir, which is hilarious because I don't think my life is interesting enough to be a memoir. Like, I've got to write fiction.

[A]

We've always talked about writing some type of pseudo memoir slash book with your dad about his food and his recipes.

[C]

Like, I love to write a book was like, a recipe book with essays from me about, like, our childhood at the restaurant. I don't know how I can get my dad to do that. Like, he doesn't want to share his recipes and, like, also, like, it's really hard to, like, manage my own calendar and, like, get them to go out to dinner, let alone, like, get my dad to, like, do a photo shoot and write down all his recipes and manage that. Like, we would need, like, a creative project manager. That is not me.

[B]

Yeah, maybe that can be, like, one substack newsletter or two. Maybe not a full book.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

As someone who's eaten a decent amount of Bill's food over the years, like, I would definitely be game for that. But I do understand the inherent logistical complications.

[C]

Yeah, I think if I gave him, like, a big chunk of money, he'd give the recipes away. But, like, it's just like, getting them. You. You have to understand, like, this is. Sorry this is such a sidebar. But, like, for my birthday, all I wanted was. I was like, I want you to sit me down and show me how to make soul manure. And like, the next thing I know, he's like chopping. And he's like this. And he's throwing things in the pan. I'm like, no, you have to explain to me how to do this. And he's like, no. He's like, you can watch. I'm like letting you watch me. And I was just like, dad, that's not helpful.

[B]

He's like, I'm a chef, not a teacher.

[C]

Yes. So that would be a dream. I just don't know how we would pull it off logistically.

[A]

Fair. Okay, wait. Back to the book you are writing, though. I feel like you were gonna get into telling us broad strokes, kind of why I don't want no pressure or I'm even just curious, like, what your North Stars are as you're writing this in terms of other books or movies or.

[C]

I don't know how Olivia feels because Olivia writes thrillers. I think for me as a reader, I've been chasing the high off of Gone Girl for so long that, like, that would be the North Star. My book has nothing to do with Gone Girl. So it's. It's not going to be like that. But I think of that. I think a lot about Frieda McFadden's books. She's an interesting one. So I used to shit all over her books, to be honest. And I feel kind of mean because the writing isn't very good. It's very straightforward. But I think it's one of the reasons it's the best. And my writing is not going to be like her writing. But I think that she's a best selling author because first of all, she's amazing at plot. And secondly, the writing is very simple and straightforward. And I think that, like, it's a book that anyone can enjoy. Like, it's not, it's not literary. And I want my book to be a little more literary than that. But I think about her way with plot and I don't think anyone writes twists as well as she does.

[A]

Yeah, I kind of conflate her with Colleen Hoover in my brain where Colleen Hoover gets so much shit. But I do think that Colleen Hoover has a mastery of plot and pacing in a way that is so difficult to do. Like just the crushability of those books. Like, I have so many memories of reading a Colleen Hoover book in one sitting on a four hour train ride. Like, you can just gulp that down.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[B]

So what I'm hearing is that between Gone girl and Frida McFadden is that the twists are going to be very key.

[C]

Yes, I have one of them. But I need two more because I believe I need three twists to write. I know I could maybe, like, end up with more and maybe with less, but we talked about this over wine after the. The Jenna dinner, and I. I think I have two twists. I have one, like, really good one, and then I just need some more, but I feel like they come to me. I'll go on a walk, and I will, like, just be thinking about my characters for an hour. Like, I know that's not actually work or writing.

[A]

It is, though. That's so much part of it. And I think disabusing yourself of the notion that the only part of writing that matters is sitting at your keyboard, typing is. It's really hard because I think, like, in our capitalist society, that's what we are trained to think, but it's. It's not true. So much of it is on walks, and so much of it is, you know, the shower principle of, like, just turning over something in your head and it clicking. And that is the work, like, right now, kind of loosely getting started on my third book, and I'm reading a lot of books that are adjacent in some way, and even though the books aren't that close to what I'm trying to do, like, it brings up questions for me or it brings up ideas for me. Like, there is so much of a mental process outside of the typing.

[C]

Yes. I think that can be said for, like, any creative pursuit. Like, you can't just be in your. And I love being in my house. You can't just be in your house, like, just sitting in front of the computer. You have to be, like, out there living. You have to be, like, just, like, thinking about it, putting yourself in new situations that inspire creativity.

[B]

Reading. Reading is so much of writing that I didn't realize so much. Yeah. As an avid reader, it'll serve you so well, I'm sure.

[A]

And it is kind of like a mystical process. Like, there is something unexplainable about it. Like, I remember when I was writing the Christmas Orphans Club, and I was on deadline, and the deadlines that I had were really tight because we wanted it to come out. I sold it in October, and we wanted it to come out the following September. So it was a really compressed timeline because publishing moves so slowly. And so I want to say I had, like, three weeks to do my first round of edits, which is so fast. And I was really stressed about it. And there was a problem that I couldn't figure out how to solve. There was, like, a chapter that wasn't working. It was Priya's first Christmas that ended up getting pretty much fully rewritten, and I couldn't figure out what it was. And I was just bashing my head against the wall. And this was also over Thanksgiving, and my aunt was in town, and I was. Oh, my gosh, I was in such a bad mood. I was so surly. And we ended up. We had tickets to go see and Juliet, which has nothing to do with anything, but it was like, okay. I was, like, kind of salty that I had to leave my computer, leave the house to go do this thing. And I. During intermission, I just had this, like, brain flash come through me, and I started writing, like, the outlines of the scene in my phone. And it's like, I don't think that's replicable. Like, the answer isn't going to see and Juliet or going to see a play, but it is, like, you connect the dots sometimes at the computer, but, like, more often, I find myself connecting the dots out in the world.

[C]

Yes, I totally agree.

[B]

Are there any resources, books or substacks or. I don't know, as you've been starting this, are you absorbing a lot of craft tips or are you just kind of going for it?

[C]

I'm kind of just going for it. I've read Save the Cat like, once and a and like a quarter, and I'm on my second read of it, but I find that I just don't really want to read it right now. I don't know why I'm kind of just going with it. I really like Andy Bartz's Substack. I think that she gives such good advice. I just love what she's doing. Who else? I listened to some of you guys back catalog Episodes, but, like, I'm mostly just, like, kind of having fun right now. I'm sure that that's gonna change.

[A]

It's almost like. Do you remember when we were doing the podcast and people would ask us for advice and we would, you know, here's what microphone to buy, here's what platform to use, whatever. But it's like, you're almost better off going in knowing as little as possible, because if you knew what awaits you. It's overwhelming. Like, going in with beginner mind, I feel like, is so helpful. And I think maybe that's why I struggled so much more with book two, because I, like, knew how the process was going to go versus, in a lot of ways, my first book. And I think probably a lot of people's first books are, like, just absent any of those constraints, yes. It's like a very free.

[C]

One thing I really love about my relationship is he is such a creative, and he really pushes me to be more creative. I was having a little mental breakdown about the book at one point, and I was like, I'm not good at this. I, like, just wrote, and it sucks, and I hate this, and what am I thinking? Like, why do I think I can write a book? And he was literally like, you need to sit there and just write, and your biggest problem is you get in your head. And he said, you need to stop critiquing as you're doing the work. He's like, you can critique a day or two later, but you need to sit and write and just let it come out of your brain. And then in a couple of days, you go back and you edit what you just wrote. And I'm really bad because I sit on my laptop and I write, like, a sentence. I'm like, ooh, no, let's reword that sentence. And then I go to the next, and I. So what I'm trying to do is just, like, write and then tuck it aside. Like, it's like, a thing I'm ashamed of, and I'm never gonna look at it again. And then, like, two days later, I go back and I edit that.

[A]

And that's been helpful, so I completely know that feeling. If I can recommend you one thing, there's this essay. It's part of Anne Lamott's book Bird by Bird. But you can find you. You can find the essay online as a PDF, and it's. I think it's just called On Shitty First Drafts. Or I think it's just called Shitty First Drafts. And it's uploaded to the University of Kentucky's website. It's like two pages. But just reading that essay was really helpful for me.

[B]

I.

[A]

One thing that I really struggle with being such a reader, and I'm wondering if this resonates for you at all, is that because you're constantly reading. I am so inclined to compare my first draft to other people's final draft. And I find it almost hard to believe with a book that's like that. I love that it ever was bad or imperfect. But the more people I talk to, like, it really, truly does seem like almost every writer is writing shitty first drafts. And that's, like, part of the process, too. And even, like, Ann Patchett has a small craft book. It's probably, like, 30 pages, and she talks about how shitty her first drafts are. Or, like, I was. Was Listening to this interview, that really struck me on Ellen Hildebrand's podcast with Barbara Kingsolver, and she was talking about how when she starts a book for the first 150 pages, it always feels so dumb. And she's like, why am I writing this? This is so dumb. And you're like, you're Barbara Kingsolver.

[B]

I know. I was just thinking, like, I can't think of anything. Even her Instagram captions. I'm like, this is the best thing I've ever read. And it's three sentences about a leaf. Like, it's so good.

[A]

Totally. But hearing other writers express that, like, tremendous writers who I really respect say that. I'm like, okay. No, like, I'm like, I can kind of believe it, but it's so hard because, you know, the book that you're holding, any physical book, you know, who knows how many rounds of edits it's gone through from its first draft.

[C]

Yeah. Well, I just think. And I'm not kissing your ass, but, like, you were talking about that with your latest book, and I got to read the latest, and I loved it. I was like, I think this is better than your first one. This is amazing. It made me cry. My mom's reading it now, by the way.

[A]

Oh, my God, I love that.

[C]

And you were like, it was shit. I had all these issues with it, and you didn't tell me most of those. So I don't know, you gave me some of the background, like, with what you went through, like, last year. But I was like, I don't know how this was bad. It's so good. And so that even is reassuring to me.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I remember when I was writing the Christmas Orphans Club, if I had a genie who offered me a wish, I feel like the one wish I would have would be to read one of, like, Emily Henry's first drafts to be like, was it actually shitty? You know, or, like, just, you know, any favorite writer to, like, reassure myself. But I think that's part of the process, is you eliminate the fingerprints of struggle. Like, I remember talking to Annabelle Monahan, and Annabel Monahan has such an interesting Type B process that I could never have, where she writes really fast and then she throws away a lot. And with her book that came out last year, she was talking about how hard it was. And when I read it, I really expected that maybe, like, some of the fingerprints of the struggle would still be there. And it was phenomenal. I was like, what do you mean? You rewrote this book 12 times. What do you mean that this didn't come together until the last draft? What are you talking about? Yeah, but that's part of the process.

[B]

Yeah, I think the cheesiest but most true writing advice, when people are like, I want to start a book, but I don't know how. It's like, you literally just have to start. Like, everyone says that, but it is the most true. And it is also the hardest thing because you have to be willing to dive in and have it be bad and be scared and think that you're terrible at this. And, like, who do you think you are? Who do I think I am? And you have to do it anyway.

[A]

Process, too. Like, and you have to. You can't just skip to the end. There isn't the easy button to be like, oh, let me Skip the drafts 1 through 5 where it's bad, and just, like, come right in at the part where it's good. Like, you can't. Like, it's.

[B]

Yeah, you have to.

[C]

I mean, I'm just not even through draft one. I'm, like, starting out on draft one, and I'm like. I'm like, I want to have my first draft done in a year. Like, I'm taking my time.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

Well, enjoy it, too. You know, Like, I mean, when I first started writing, I shared about it right away on social and stuff, because it was just so fun. Fun. I was like, oh, I've discovered this thing that is wonderful and, like, makes me feel like writing does, but in this new way. So, yeah, just enjoy it.

[A]

And I feel like every time I've seen you and we've talked about it in person, I can just tell in your tone of voice and in your facial expression how excited you are about it. And that's, like, the best. Like, just being able to hold on to that.

[C]

It's really exciting. And I was telling you, I think sometimes I don't even want to read or watch TV at night. I just, like, want to spend time with my characters. And, like, that's like, a new feeling. It's really. Yeah. So I know that it's gonna get hard and it's gonna be a struggle, and I. But I've done, like. Like, hard things. We've all done hard things. And I think it's just, like, breaking it up into chunks.

[A]

I think one thing that surprised me, it's just the longest process I've ever undertaken, you know, with any other work I've done. You know, a newsletter, if you work really hard on it, maybe takes a Couple of weeks.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, when I worked in house, you know, maybe I was working on a big project for six months, but I've just never done something that takes so long. And it's, like, so hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes. And it's like, believing that it will get there is so tough sometimes, but it really does take just, like, so much of a commitment. And the fact that you're like, I just want to hang out with these fake people, and, like, I. I just want to play. Like, that more than anything tells me that this is, like, the right road and that you're. You're so excited about this idea, and, like, that's, like, all green flags.

[C]

Yeah. Again, I was telling you guys before we recorded, I feel like I'm lying when I'm telling people I'm writing a book. Like, I start to get, like, a little bit giggly, and I'm like, it's like the imposter syndrome.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

Because it's like.

[A]

Well, I remember when I started talking about it, I was like, well, I don't know if it'll become a book because I don't know if I'll sell it or I don't know if I'll finish it. So it's like, who am I to call myself?

[C]

I know. And my friends in Charleston, they're so, like, they're so sweet and supportive, and they're like, when are you going to publish it? And, like, how is that going to work? I'm like, girl, like, I don't have a first draft yet. Like, I don't have an agent. I don't have an editor. I don't have a book deal. Like, I don't have any of this. And I mean, whatever. At the end of the day, like, I'm having fun, and I feel like that's, like, the most important thing. And I think it's taking shape. Like, every day it takes, like, a little more shape, even if it's like, I didn't write, but I thought about it and I wrote down the ideas for it, or I had a conversation with a friend that can be used for research.

[A]

I know you're still really early days, but has there been anything about the process so far that surprised you?

[C]

I think the biggest surprise is kind of what happens when I take Jeff's advice and I just sit there and I write because there's so much in my head. And I also think it's weird because I grew up very creative. Like, my sisters and I, we did Crafts. And we did writing, and we did things every day with my mom. And, like, you know, the essay I published with my grandmother? Like, we were very creative kids.

[A]

Your klutz books. I always associate those books with you.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I love.

[C]

I had every single one. I love them. Especially the hair braiding. I'm trying to find the hair braiding one for Zoe. And not to keep bringing him up, but something else Jeff said was we just had our anniversary dinner, and we were talking about this, the book. And he was like, well, you know, you've just always been the big sister. And I was like, what do you mean by that? Like, and what he meant was eldest daughter. Like, he was confusing, and it was very cute that he called it the big sister. But, like, somewhere along the way, I did get. Become very practical, and I don't like doing things I'm bad at. You know, I literally switched my major from marketing to finance because I thought it would get me a better job, and it did. And I'm really good at, like, making business decisions and doing things that make money. I live in fear of being destitute. So I'm, like, always thinking about what's going to make money, what is going to be a good business decision and practical. And I think that those are all really good things. But I think somewhere along the way, I started to, like, stifle the creative side of me. Like, he was like, well, look at your sisters. One went to art school and the other one went into academia, and you went into business. And I was like, oh, my God. I feel really seen in, like, a weird way. Like, he was being really supportive, right? But he was like, you've always just had, like, the big sister energy where you do the practical thing. And he's like, now look at you. He's like, you're earning enough money from your influencer stuff. He's like, you. You know, you buy your own house. Like, you can spend some time and do this. And I was like, wow, this actually feels really freeing. Like, I can. I can. I'm 44, and I'm, like, getting back in touch with that side of my brain.

[A]

Yeah, you've, like, spent the time building your safety net, and now you can, like, enjoy that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think there's something really beautiful about finding something that you love to do that. I mean, especially, like, all of us who have, like, pieced together freelance careers in different ways and everything sort of was, like, had a dollar amount attached to it. When I started writing at first, and I was Just like, I don't know what this is going to become, like, exactly like you. It was just, I was like, oh, it's so nice to do this and not have to like submit it to a brand, you know.

[C]

Oh my God, yes.

[B]

And be like, okay, I need to get this paycheck. It's just like, oh, I actually like to do this. And I like to do it enough that I will do it for the next year or whatever until, or maybe if I don't get paid, you know, it's just like, I actually love this. Regardless, I think it's such a wonderful thing. And it's very kind of like you were saying, it's very childlike, you know, it's very like, this is just something I like to do and it's that simple and that's enough. And being able to have built a career that you can then do that is, you know, it's part of the benefit of working so hard. Like you should be able to enjoy that and to be creative in these other ways.

[C]

Yeah, I feel like very alive when I do it and I feel alive when I write my substack essays too. I think a lot of the, like, you know, you, you guys do it too. The, the branded content. And it's not to say that I'm working with brands I don't love or like doing partnerships that are inauthentic, but sometimes it is such a frickin grind to like hit the talking points, seem natural, look cute doing it, like the whole thing. Like I'm just like sitting like ugly with three beverages writing. And it's the best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's also something really invigorating about discovering something new about yourself, exploring a skill set or a practice that you haven't had before and being like, I'm not static as a person. You know, I started writing my first book when I was in my mid-30s, but like being like, oh, like I can do this other thing. I don't know. There's something really invigorating about flexing in a way that I, I hadn't before.

[C]

Yes, I totally agree. And I feel like for a while like the writing thing was like something I was just doing in private. So now it's like it's weird to be doing it publicly, if that makes sense. Like also like with substack, something I was thinking about, and this is another tangent, is like doing something that you're like, not great at and like working on your craft and working on your craft in a public way so people are Kind of watching you get better. Like, one of the reasons I got really bad and I haven't been on there in a while with Reddit was like, they were saying, I use AI to write, and I don't use AI to write. Like, I took an AI workshop and I learned a bunch of things, and frankly, I don't really use AI anymore. I use it for data analysis. I upload my substack data, and I have spreadsheets. Like, whatever. This is not. I'm getting sidetracked. But they were saying that I was using AI to write, and I was, like, in tears over this. I was like, I would never. And then my editor was like, but, like, I think it's because your writing's getting more polished. And I was like, oh, actually, maybe that's a compliment. Like, I don't know. But I think there is a real struggle to do something publicly and, like, start out. And you're like, when I was younger, I was like, I'm a great writer, and I look at subsec essays I wrote even two years ago, I'm like, ooh, that's like, pretty bad. And, like, even things I wrote six months ago, I'm like, oh, that's not great. But I think it's just, like, you're on a journey, and it's really hard to do be on a journey that, like, the public is observing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but that's honest, and that's, like, very emotionally vulnerable.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess with any, like, I'm not saying I'm an artist, but, like, with artists, even, like, you watch their trajectory over the years, and with writers, like, there's certain writers where, I don't know, like, both of you, I don't want to sound condescending, but both of you, I read your second books, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I'm so proud of my friends. Like, their. Their writing is getting even better.

[B]

Thank you. I think you're right, though. I think. And we talk about this a lot. I think writing a book is such an exercise in, like, having a personal relationship with the creative work that you're doing and really knowing you're enjoying it and you're proud of it, and also knowing that you want to give better and that someone out there will dislike it or someone out there will, you know, like, and you have to really accept that and to know that you're striving to get better, but you're still proud of what you're creating right now, and you're still Proud of yourself for taking the steps to make something, because it does require a level of bravery, no matter what kind of platform you have. You know, in fact, if there's more eyes on you, I think in a way it's even scarier sometimes. So, yeah, I. I totally know what you mean. And I think to say that you love something and you want to do something is really scary. But, like, what is life about if not that? That's kind of all we have.

[C]

I want to do things that scare me. I don't want to just be in this. Like, and I really like being an influencer. I like having my newsletter, but I also want to push myself. Like, you can only do the same thing again and again. Like, and, like, who knows what comes after this? Like, will I become a painter? Probably not. Like, I'm a really. I love to paint, but I'm really bad at it. Like, really?

[B]

So you can still do it?

[C]

Yeah. I just think we should all do more things that scare us. I think that you can do something before you feel ready, and it's fun to take a risk.

[A]

Oh, I'm so excited for you. I'm so excited to be on this journey. I mean, both publicly and then also privately. I'm so excited to have a seat in the front row for this.

[B]

Me too. I'm cheering you on.

[C]

Thanks, friends.

[A]

We. If there are any other book topics, I'm happy to chat about them, but I do have a few other things I wanted to talk to you about.

[C]

I don't have any book things. I think I said all. I have this one page. I'm still, like, in the stage where I'm, like, terrified of this and think that it's a lie.

[B]

Is there anything related to the plot or the characters that you want to share? Because I know people are going to be like, what's it about?

[C]

Yes. So it has a lot of my favorite things. It's going to be over a few different time periods. So there's going to be boarding school. I love the boarding school plotline. I love rich kids behaving badly. Rich kids. Yes. It's our favorite genre. There's going to be a lot this set in the beauty industry because I worked in the beauty industry for eight years and I have, like, a really fun thing around that. This isn't plotty, but, like, one thing I loved about the idea of you and about Katie Storino's book and about Erica Vorink's book Exit Lane was the fashion. So I'm really trying to, like, Describe the outfits and the fashion with care. Like one of the characters works in an antique jewelry store.

[B]

That's cool.

[C]

And then there's also, like, rich adults behaving badly. It's a lot of wealthy people behaving badly.

[A]

It's a very chic thriller.

[C]

I think it's going to be a chic thriller and I don't know very many thrillers. New genre, dropping fashion thrillers.

[B]

Love that.

[C]

Feels like a paper book series. What else did you want to talk about?

[A]

Okay, so first of all, I don't know if you know this, but in two weeks we are coming up on the eight year anniversary of the podcast.

[C]

Shit. Wow. So it'll be four and four. Four years with me and four years with Olivia.

[A]

Oh, my God. Isn't that wild? But I wanted to ask, as we like, begin to.

[C]

We're old.

[A]

Celebrate. I know you want to know what's something that's so crazy is eight years is fully, like when I turn 40 will be one fifth of my life. Like one fifth of my life is documented via this podcast, which is so wild and cool.

[C]

Wow, that's crazy.

[B]

That is cool though.

[A]

I wanted to ask you if you have like a fun or favorite early podcast memory to share because we're gonna do some retrospective stuff with Olivia. But that's only the second four years.

[C]

Oh, my gosh, there's so many. I mean, I feel like we had the always ask for more money episode, which I think was like just the messages we would get for like years after that. Frankly, for me, it was getting to meet some of my heroes and getting to know them better. Like when Sidney Crawford came to my house to record that episode.

[A]

The catfishing of people to come over, I think about all the time. Do you remember when we had Graham Norton on the podcast?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

He came to my house and I know he came to your house and some assistant, like, no shade whatsoever. But some assistant was like, it was raining and was like, can you make sure somebody is outside with an umbrella to, like, meet Mr. Norton? And we were like, it's just an apartment like

[C]

that.

[A]

And it was like, oh, like, we are so out of our league here.

[C]

And he was just like in a Hawaiian shirt. He's like, hey, guys. Like, he was so chill.

[A]

He was so great. But it was like, oh, like, there's not even a producer. There's not even a third person here. It's just like the two of us.

[C]

And then Cindy's people kept being like, well, what about glam? Will you be covering glam? And we're like, but this is not. There's no video for this. Like, it's literally just an interview at my house. That was funny. We got to meet so many people, and even though I was the one who made us stop doing them, like, the live shows were pretty cool. Like, we filmed Gramercy Theater. Like, I tell some of my friends in Charleston this because, like, I feel like I have, like, this kind of smaller life now. Like, it's like, I'm not doing, like, these big, crazy things anymore. I tell them that we went on tour, that we sold out Gramercy Theater, and they're like, excuse me.

[A]

What?

[C]

Like, even at. There was a party here, and I saw the Veronicas from Veronica Beard, and I was telling some of my girlfriends, oh, yeah. I was like, they came over my house. We had this podcast episode, and they're like, the Veronicas were in your living room? I was like, oh, honey. Like, Sidney Crawford was in my living room. Like, I didn't say that, but I'm just like. Like, when I think about the stuff that we did, I'm like, that's kind of surreal.

[A]

I'm so proud of it.

[C]

Oh, I also think I could talk about this all day. This is a problem. I think about Ashley Spivey's episode when we first met her, and we, like, form this lovely friendship with her, but also, like, she taught us about so many books that in that sitting, truly, that became our favorites, like, Tell Me

[A]

Lies and Tell Me I Knew. Yeah.

[C]

Yes. And there was others, but those two books, like, they've both become, like, such pop culture moments, and they both got adaptations. And.

[A]

Yeah, I just saw her last week, and I'm always so happy when I get to see her in person.

[B]

Yeah, she's lovely.

[A]

We were actually in a movie, and she scared the shit out of me because she, like, snuck up behind me and was like, boo.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I haven't seen her in ages. When she was in Charleston, she came over and brought Penny with her, but that was, like, a couple years ago.

[A]

Okay, so two more podcast questions.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I know you're out of your podcast era, but what guest could we get that would make you want to come back for an interview?

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Like, who would be your dream guest right now for our podcast In a Garten? Oh, yeah, That's a good one. Did you listen to her interview on Amy Poehler's podcast?

[C]

No. Or any puller. Like, do the reverse. Like, you bring Amy on.

[B]

Okay, that would be.

[C]

Yeah. Seems Doable, right?

[A]

Gauntlet Throne.

[B]

Totally.

[C]

Yeah. I think Ina. Yeah. Or Amy.

[A]

Okay, great. Noted.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Year nine. Noted.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Just invite. Just invite them over your house and see what happens.

[A]

Just see what happens. Okay. This is just like truly the wild card section of things I wanted to talk to you about on the podcast. Okay. So I feel like we also have the Verity adaptation coming up, which that was a big podcast book club pick. And I feel like that might be. Not that you didn't like the idea of you too, but like that might be your. The idea of you adaptation and how

[C]

weird that Anne Hathaway is the lead in both of them.

[A]

I know, right? But I'm curious how you're feeling about the Verity adaptation.

[C]

I don't think it's gonna be good

[A]

because of Dakota Johnson.

[B]

I was Dakota Johnson, but I didn't say it.

[C]

Do we not like her? I mean, she's not a very good actress.

[A]

I don't disagree with that. But then I feel like her and Anne Hathaway are too close in age to each other for me.

[C]

Oh, yeah, they are. And they kind of. Now that Anne's had her face left, they kind of look alike. Yeah.

[A]

Like I was picturing somebody younger, like early mid-20s in the Dakota Johnson role.

[C]

So I actually don't know if it'll be good or bad. I'm just telling myself it's going to be bad because I'm going to watch it the day it comes out. But it's easier for me with adaptations to just tell myself it'll be bad.

[A]

Protect yourself.

[C]

Because I get very excited. I get very excited. And when I get excited and I get let. Get let down, I get mad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Grace, have you read Project Hail Mary?

[C]

No.

[B]

Oh my.

[C]

Do you think I would like it?

[A]

Yes. Grace, I've told you this seven times.

[B]

I mean, I need to read Project

[A]

Hail Mary or you can listen to it.

[B]

But speaking of adaptations, I mean, I know, I know. And I do have to give it a try. Like, it is really something special.

[A]

It is the ultimate crowd pleaser book. Like, I truly can't think of a single person.

[C]

There's something in the description that made me think I wouldn't like it. And so I didn't read it and then I forgot about it. Frankly, you would love it. I will read it. I will read it.

[A]

I think it's going to be a book.

[C]

Can I come back and we'll talk about it on the podcast?

[B]

Sure. I'm happy to talk about it any day.

[C]

Yes, I will read it. There's so many books. Like, right now, my TBR pile is out of control. I'm reading Yesteryear. Oh, my gosh. I got the new Robin book.

[B]

Another Anne Hathaway adaptation.

[C]

Wait, with what?

[A]

Yesteryear?

[B]

She's starring in the movie.

[C]

What?

[A]

They acquired the rights, like, a year ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is Anne Hathaway the new Nicole Kidman? She's just, like, in everything.

[B]

That's actually a pretty good analysis. Yeah.

[C]

And they both like their faces. Like, I mean, they're both beautiful. I don't want to critique women for having work done because I will probably get work done at some point. But, like, oh, my God. Like. Yeah.

[A]

Well, wait. Speaking of books, I need to know, what have been your top three books year to date?

[C]

Year to date. Okay. I'm going onto my library page because my brain is an actual sieve. I have read a lot this year,

[B]

and it's only been two and a half months.

[C]

I'm not going to include your book because we've already talked about your book. Can I do that?

[A]

Yeah. Don't include my book.

[C]

Well, it's just there's a lot of other good books, too.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not offended. I'm. No, I would be like, I would melt into the floor if you included my book. I'm not used to it being.

[C]

Well, then I'm going to include your book because your book was one of my A pluses.

[A]

It's more that, like, oh, my God.

[C]

I want to highlight other books. Okay.

[A]

Oh, my God. That's so sweet. Tell me the other books, though.

[C]

Okay. The other books. In Her Defense by Philippa Malika.

[B]

Oh, I want to read this.

[C]

So this was a Reese's Book Club pick. It is set in the English countryside, in a courtroom and in Rome. And what I loved about this was the scenery was really transportive. Like, the book is not that similar to the talented Mr. Ripley, but there's this, like, queer sexual tension that is very similar to that. And it's really well written and it's really well described. Olivia, I think that you will love this.

[B]

Yeah. As you're talking about it, I think you'll like it.

[A]

You're like, you will not love it. It's a little too scary.

[C]

It's not scary. Like, the writing, in some ways, almost reminds me of Olivia's writing. Oh, thank you. That's nice. I just think it's a very you book.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

I still think you should read it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This will be moved higher up my list.

[C]

I would move it up higher. It's really good. Okay. The other one was a Becca recommendation. The Force of Such Beauty. Oh, my God.

[A]

How is that not a bigger book?

[C]

I don't know. See, this is why I wanted to talk about other books, because there's been, like, a lot of good books that you. Mostly Becca, like, threw a lot of wrecks my way that I read. Like, I also read that book that was your book club pick. The one about moving.

[A]

Oh, Best Overwinter.

[C]

Finding a House. Yes. That wasn't in my top three, but it was really good.

[A]

Well, to be fair, the Force of Such Beauty. Olivia read it first, and then I read it based on Olivia's recommendation and now passed it to you. So it's very.

[B]

It's a good one.

[C]

So good. So good.

[B]

So transportive. Yeah. But smart and social commentary. Yeah. Really, really nice.

[C]

And then I don't want to be a cliche, but Strangers. Have you read Strangers yet?

[A]

No, I haven't.

[B]

No. But I am considering reading it this weekend to screen it for maybe doing it for book club. But, Becca, we can talk about that.

[C]

Okay. I think you should at a later date. I loved it. The writing is. Is magnificent. I don't like a book about, like, I. When everyone was watching Marriage Story with Scarlett Johansson and Adam Driver, I was like, that is. I'm gonna pass.

[B]

Like, I feel the same way. Yes.

[C]

I don't like that kind of stuff, but it opens with her being left. And I think that for me, starting with, like, ripping the band aid off and then going back in time a little bit here and there was better than, like, this torturous. Torturous. Like, will they or won't they separate? Like, are they getting divorced? Like, the fighting and all of that. There's not really fighting in this. It's just describing what happens with, like, pretty magical writing. And also, like, there's like, some. An old money element in there, which I love. Like, her grandmother was Babe Paley, who was one of sharing Capote's swans. So I've read it in two sittings. Like, I found myself staying up late to read it and then, like, also Googling things. Like, I did go on Reddit. I didn't look at the blog snark stuff. I looked at, like, their family history because there was this whole Reddit thread, like, outing him and then, like, trying to figure out who his mistress was. And, like, I got really into the gossip for that.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

This is really, like, a hit. It's just everywhere. I couldn't. I went at the bookstore. I Was at last night. They didn't have a copy. It sold out. Yeah.

[C]

It's literally everywhere. I really like that. And then I got some others that I'll share just because Rachel Hawkins books I don't generally love, but I loved the storm.

[A]

I. This is on my list. I need to read this, because I do. That's like my perfect thriller where they're not scary.

[C]

See, I think gray thrillers can be scary.

[A]

Oh, I don't.

[C]

Well, this one was. There was a storm. I found this one scary.

[A]

Because of the weather of it or because of the. Like.

[C]

Because of the weather.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I think you'll like it. I think you'll both.

[A]

Weather is a trigger for me.

[C]

Okay. Weather is a trigger for me because I was Charleston.

[B]

It may be.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. Weather is a huge trigger for me. Every time there's a hurricane, I'm like, I'm going to lose my house.

[B]

Like, that's fair.

[C]

So I loved that. I loved Lady Tremaine, which was a modern retelling of Cinderella from the stepmother's perspective.

[A]

I know you recommended this to me when we were at dinner, and I need to read this one. I have it on my shelf, but I haven't gotten to it yet.

[C]

Yeah, those were my big ones. Oh, I loved. This was an older one, Klara and the sun by Kazuo Ishiguro.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[B]

Oh, interesting. I liked this one, but I. It's different.

[C]

It's different. Yeah. I thought it was interesting with all the parallels between AI and, like, artificial. Because it was written kind of a while ago.

[B]

Yeah. And it's.

[C]

I just thought it was really interesting that this, like. It kind of humanized this artificial companion.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I wonder how I would feel about it now, because I read it when it first came out, but you're so right with the AI of it all.

[C]

Yeah. I don't know that you need to reread it, but it just made me think and I thought it was really well done.

[A]

Well, thank you for those. This has exhausted my topics, but the floor is yours. Is there anything else you are dying to have an outlet to discuss?

[C]

Well, I had wanted to know if either of you read the new Robin Lee book yet?

[A]

No, not yet. I'm a little nervous because I love the idea of you so much that it's almost like my hopes and expectations are so sky high. I've heard that it's darker, and I've heard that it's maybe less romance.

[C]

Okay. I mean, that sounds like it's great for me, but yeah.

[B]

Maybe I will like it more because I like the idea of you, but I'm not. I am an outsider when it comes to the fandom, so maybe I will. Like, I never watched the movie, but maybe I would like this more.

[A]

I'm so.

[C]

You know, Becca begged me to read idea of you for like a year before I would read it. Olivia.

[A]

It wasn't a year, but it was like a few months. And you were like, I will not.

[C]

I was like, I will not entertain this.

[A]

Yeah, that's fair.

[B]

Yeah. It took me a while. I think I only did maybe because maybe it was before I started co hosting and I was like, I think I need to read this woman into the community.

[A]

Leave me alone. Unless I read this book.

[C]

You did the right thing. Yeah. I basically read it to shut Becca up and then I was like, love this.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot to love.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Have you read it yet?

[C]

No. It's like second or third in my TBR. I'm reading yesteryear right now and I'm like 60% through it and it's really hard. It's like, literally sitting on my kitchen island over there and I'm like, ooh, you look good for when I finish recording. But I have a lot of actual work to do.

[A]

I feel like that book is like, after I finished it, you were the first person I thought of where I was like, grace needs to read this.

[C]

Yes. It's great so far. She's not likable, but it's great.

[A]

I thought that the portrayal of what I imagine this level of Internet fame to be, like, really well done.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's based on a type of, like, ballerina farm type.

[C]

Yes, yes, yes.

[A]

Influencer, who's like, both huge in terms of reach and success, but also, like, very polarizing.

[B]

Yes. So still on my list, along with, as you said, TBR is more out of control than ever. I don't know what it is if it's just like these amount of books coming out or I don't know. But there's so much good stuff.

[C]

There's so much good stuff and, like, I can't keep up. And it's like, not like, I don't get sent that many books anymore. Like, every now and then I'll get one. Or like, the Thousand Voices team is so nice and sent me a bunch of books. And Becca was so kind and introduced me to Jenny, who does the publicity for yesteryear.

[A]

No, she's the editor. Jenny Jackson. She wrote Pineapple Street.

[C]

She's the editor. Oh, I Didn't know she edited it. I thought she was. Did the publicity for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, okay. I mean, I love Jenny Jackson. I have Jenny Jackson's new book in my pocket.

[A]

Me too. You know, I just reread Pineapple street as research for my own book, like the multi POV family book. And that book is so, like, the writing is so good. I'm really excited to read her next book. I forgot how much I enjoyed Pineapple Street.

[C]

I did too. And I'm, like, such a plotty person that, like, I felt surprised by how much I liked this book where, like, nothing was happening a lot of the time. It was just, like, really great writing.

[A]

Yeah. And, like, the specificity of the references were so good.

[C]

Yes, I agree.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. Should we leave it there? I mean, yeah, I feel like going back into podcast history. Would you like to have a desperation minute?

[C]

Oh, sure. You can pre order my book in, like, five years.

[B]

I think it'll probably be less than that, but. Well, little one was five years.

[C]

I'm totally. I'm totally joking. My little one. First drafts by January.

[A]

That could be an interesting plot for a book. Big influencer starts collecting money for pre orders for a book that then never delivers and, like, disappears.

[B]

That is literally the Caroline Calloway story.

[C]

Yes. So you guys can follow me. I'm on Instagram @graceatwood. I have a substack, which is grace is my name.substack.com, but it's called Scratchpad. And then my blog that I've had for 16 years and I still publish to the stripe.

[A]

Yay. I'm so happy you came back.

[C]

Thanks for doing this. Like, thanks for giving me a platform to talk about this. I appreciate you guys.

[A]

Dude, open invite.

[B]

I think it's for anyone who's like, well, where do I start? You start.

[C]

Yeah, you just really, no matter who you are, and it might be, like,

[A]

really bad, but it might be really good. I'm so excited about everything. I've heard about it.

[C]

I'm excited. Yeah. So that's it.

[B]

Well, I think people are going to be excited too, but thank you for sharing it with us. Let's take one last ad break. This episode is sponsored by Skims. I don't know about any of you, but something I find really satisfying in this life is finding an item that works well, serves its purpose, and sticking to it. For me, this is the Skims Fits everybody T shirt bra. In my opinion, this is simply the perfect everyday bra. It is comfortable enough to wear all day. It looks smooth and seamless under pretty much anything you want to wear. It is just flawless. And it is quite literally the only bra I wear. I even bought with my own money. By the way. This is far before this partnership started the strapless version to complete my undergarment wardrobe. And I love that bra too.

[A]

Speaking of buying skims with your own money, if you've listened here for a while you might remember that I'm going to say like three years ago I tried the skims for Fits Everybody thong and they quickly became my favorite. Go to underwear. They don't move around, they don't like roll down, they don't show through clothing. I find them really, really comfortable. Like it feels like second skin. And I decided in a very grown up move that I do not need to suffer through all the other underwear that I have that I don't really like. And I replaced basically my full underwear drawer with ones from the Skims Fits Everybody collection. I really like the thong and then I like the high rise brief and oh my gosh, my day to day quality of life. Just only wearing the underwear that I like. It's such a small thing that has such huge returns.

[B]

Shop Skims Fits everybody [e-mail] after you place your order, be sure to let them know that we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show Bad on Paper in the dropdown menu that follows.

[A]

All right, Olivia, into some end matter here. What are you obsessed with?

[B]

I don't really have an obsession.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

I have a lot of books though. So we will. I will cede my time to books.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yes. What is your obsession?

[A]

Mine is the new Harry Styles album. I'm having so much fun listening to it. I also feel like listening to the album gives me more preemptive excitement for going to the concert. Like it's all melded together in my mind. But I really like American Girls. I really like Taste back. I've been seeing a lot of edits on reels with the Summer. I turned pretty content and taste back and I watch every single one of them. But I'm having so much fun listening to the album. I also watched the concert that he did that was on Netflix and I really enjoyed that too. He played through the whole album. It's like a good alternate way to experience it.

[B]

Do you know what you're wearing to the concert yet? Have you even. I. I would be thinking immediately, but have you started thinking?

[A]

I have started thinking. I have an idea in my head, but I'm Also curious to see because there's many shows before kind of where the aesthetic nets out. So right now, one item I own and one item I need to find. So I have this. I've never worn it because I don't know where I would wear it, but I have. It's like a kind of see through sparkly long sleeve top.

[B]

That sounds fun. It's like silver appropriate.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm kind of thinking maybe that maybe this is the place where I wear this top. And then I. I'm kind of imagining wearing it with like magenta silk pants. So it's comfy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Easy to move in. I don't know. So I have a pair of silk pants from J. Crew that are lime green and right now they don't have any in magenta. But I'm like hoping maybe they add new colorways, I don't know. Or maybe I just find pink silk pants somewhere else.

[B]

I think that sounds like a great plan.

[C]

Thanks.

[A]

But we'll see. Thoughts are evolving.

[B]

I'll have to listen to this album more. I'm a Harry Styles fan, but very casually, so I'll just have to. I'll have to dive in.

[A]

I gotta tell you, I think seeing him live. I saw him in. Live in Paris in 2022, really changed how I feel about him. We had the worst seats at that concert. Like we were three rows from the very back of the stadium. And the amount of charisma he had, the showmanship, like telegraphed all the way to the back of the room. Seeing him do his thing live, it was one of those moments of like, oh, yes, this is why you're this famous.

[B]

Yeah, it changed you.

[A]

It changed me. And I think, yeah, seeing him live really upped the ante. And also seeing all the edits of him live on his last tour on TikTok or wherever, just, it really upped the ante on my. My level of fandom. Okay.

[B]

Understandable for sure.

[A]

Well, you teased that you have so many books I want to hear about em.

[B]

Yes, well, I've been reading many books at once and with that comes the day when they all finish the same time. So I have a wide range of genres too. So we're starting with contemporary romance. So we're starting out of my usual wheelhouse. I read you between the Lines by Katie Naiman, which had been recommended to me a couple times, and I was really curious about the premise, which is that two high school kind of creative writing rivals end up in the same MFA program. Poetry. They kind of had this like love, hate, relationship. They're not quite enemies, but so it's all about them being in this MFA program. And I really, really liked this. Like, I thought it was really sexy and fun. There was a lot of interesting commentary on writing. And I was kind of nervous about the poetry part of it because sometimes poetry and books and novels can just feel. I don't know, can feel off putting to me or, like, just a little strange. But I actually. I really loved a lot of it, and it was really stimulating to me from, like, a writing perspective. And, yeah, I just. It was. It was a little bit long for. For me, maybe, but. And, like, there's. I have some questions about the final thing that, like, really brings them together. I was kind of like, oh, it's a bit of a stretch, but as someone who really doesn't read a lot of romance, I just. I really, really loved this. And there's this one part where they're in the MFA program, and of course they had to. They have to workshop each other's work. And he reads this poem that is, like, clearly about her in front of everyone, and. But she doesn't know for sure. And there's this whole moment where she's like, well, who's the poem about? And he's like, you know who it's about? And I was like, this really does something for me.

[A]

So I feel giddy just hearing that.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, I really, really enjoyed this. Okay, changing gears completely, I read Understory by Chloe Benjamin, who wrote the Immortalist. Did you read that?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay. I didn't either.

[A]

I certainly remember hearing about it, but I didn't read it.

[B]

Yes. I knew nothing about it. This book comes out in September, so I was reading an early copy. I would describe this book as Project Hail Mary meets Wild Dark shore. What? With 50% more science.

[A]

What? And also 50% more science than Project Hail Mary?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's a lot of science.

[A]

That might be too much science.

[B]

It is so complicated and mind bendy that at times I got really confused and that. That took me out of, like, the emotional side of it, which is so strong and the character work is so strong. So it's about this woman who, after a divorce and like a tragedy that occurs, goes to work as a dishwasher in a station in Antarctica and discovers this portal to an alternate universe.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

And that's all I'll say. But it's beautiful writing. It is trippy as hell. I actually, after I read it, I had dreams where there's a part of the book how in the other universe, time is moving backwards.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

So, okay, so if you, like, did acid and read this book, I think you would probably just die. It's so confusing, but it's really beautiful and, like, it raised some really, really interesting questions for me. So, yeah, I can't wait to see. I've been reading reviews of this one, which I usually don't just because I'm so curious what people's takes are, and it's kind of all over the map, which doesn't surprise me. But when people love this, they love it. And I completely understand why.

[A]

I'm kind of curious about it.

[B]

If you can, like, just power through the parts where you're like, wait, what then? Then you. I think it's worth it. Okay, so next I read Warning Signs by Tracy Sierra, which was the second novel from Tracy Sierra, who wrote Night Watching, which is one of my absolute favorite thrillers ever. This is about a young boy. It's told mostly from his perspective, if not entirely on a ski trip with his horrible father and a lot of his business associates. And there is an avalanche. And there were a few aspects of this book that made me not love it as much as her first. And the first is that there's no female characters who are alive. Oh. Which, despite that, I think the main boy's voice is so strong. But I think that maybe took me out of it, at least paired with the next thing, which is that it's all about skiing and mountains and snow and avalanches, and I just know nothing about that world. I will never be in that world. So that was a little tough for me. But beautiful writing. And I will still read what she writes next.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Finally, I read A Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer Egan, which I mostly read because you mentioned once that there's a PowerPoint in it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it just always stuck with me. Yes. And I was like a PowerPoint in a book. It was so fascinating to me. So I checked this out from the library. For those that don't know. It's sort of a series of interconnected character vignettes, kind of not a lot of plot, I would say. I don't know. This wasn't for me. I'll be honest.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'll be honest. It won a Pulitzer, so I think I can say that it's punching up. I had trouble becoming invested. Even though the writing is beautiful, the character work is great. I just had trouble, like, latching onto anything. The PowerPoint I thought was so interesting, though it was worth it just for that, I think. But yeah, I don't know. I think it was a touch too plotless for me, maybe. But, I mean, it won a Pulitzer, so take that with a grain of salt.

[A]

This is a book I remember loving. I still have my copy of it that I felt compelled to hang on to. However, I think I read this when it came out, which was 2010, and so it's not high on my list to revisit, but I would be curious to see how I thought about it now.

[B]

Yeah, I would, too, because I also read this in fits and starts. Doesn't help, but yeah, I would really be curious to know what you think about it because it doesn't strike me as a you book, but maybe I'm wrong.

[A]

I do like anything set in the

[C]

music world, so that's a.

[A]

A point in its column for sure.

[B]

I did enjoy that stuff, too. Okay, enough about me. What did you read?

[A]

I only read one book this week. I read Lake Effect by Cynthia Dupree Sweeney, which just came out a couple of weeks ago, and I've been seeing a lot about it. And it's set in the late 70s. It's about these two people who are neighbors who have an affair and leave their respective spouses for each other and the ripple effects that that has in their families, in their community, in their lives. I loved this. It's like a very gossipy social novel told from many different points of view. So some of it is through points of view in their family, some of it are from points of view of, like, very random people in the community. I love this. It kind of reminded me of if you liked the book Eliza Starts a Rumor by Jane Rosen, or if you liked All Adults Here by Emma Straub. It kind of reminds me of both of those where it's like this one, semi harmless. I mean, I guess an affair is not harmless, but one event that then creates all of these downstream effects.

[B]

Okay, that sounds good. I really liked her first book.

[A]

So I never read this book, the Nest, but I really enjoyed this and I loved the writing. It's very. The writing is very funny. This felt like it went down easy.

[B]

Good. Well, would you like to plug our book club book?

[A]

Yeah. If none of those appeal to you, next week is book club. And we are reading so Old, so Young by Grant Ginder. And this is a book about a group of six friends. And it follows them over the course of 20 years from right after they graduate college into their 40s. And it's told only via five parties and I'm rereading this book now and I'm just so impressed by the scope of adult issues it deals with. Dating, breakups, marriage, children, divorce, death, addiction. Like there is so much packed into here. I can't wait to discuss this. I'm really excited about this one. So check that out and come discuss it with us next week. And in the meantime, if you would like to chat about anything in this episode, we are on Instagram BatonPaper Podcast. You can join our Facebook group under BatonPaper Podcast you can join our BFF group. Also Baton Paper Podcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is beccafreeman substack.com and I would love it if you would pre order a copy of my book that is coming out in October. It's called Back Where We Started. It's a second chance celebrity, normal person romance and I'm nervous to hear what you think but I'm also excited and

[B]

you can find me at oliviamentor all the places, all the ways.

[A]

See you next week.

[B]

Bye.

[C]

Bye.