Into the Blue Book Club

Summary

Bad On Paper — "Into the Blue" Book Club

Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Date: May 27, 2026
Episode Theme:
This episode of Bad On Paper is a lively, in-depth discussion of Emma Brodie’s novel Into the Blue. Becca and Olivia deep-dive into what makes this contemporary romance unique, discuss its structure, themes, characters, and dissect personal highs, lows, and notable moments within the text and their own lives. The conversation is enhanced by behind-the-scenes insights from the author, listener questions, and plenty of bookish banter.

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Episode Structure

1. Personal Highs & Lows — Catch-up on recent life adventures & woes
2. Book Overview & Initial Reactions — Plot summary, big-picture impressions
3. Deep Dive Discussion — Characters, themes, structure, and writing
4. Listener Hot Takes & Voicemails — Community reactions and questions
5. Author Voice Notes — Emma Brodie on writing process and themes
6. Obsessions & Current Reads — Hosts’ recommendations
7. Next Month’s Book Club Pick — Announcement

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1. Personal Highs & Lows

Segment: 00:35–11:55

Highs

• Olivia: A picturesque Saturday attending a local farmer’s market, the quirky paranormal festival (complete with Bigfoot experts, the legend of the Kinderhook Blob, and a psychic reading gone awry), a spontaneous dinner in Wyndham, and an impromptu author Q&A at a reader retreat.

  • "I went to a reading retreat at a random house in the Catskills where they had read my book for book club. So I sat with them on the back porch and answered questions and it was really nice." (03:04, Olivia)

• Becca: A chill, restorative weekend spent reading two books—reconnecting with her love for reading.

  • "This sensation of just sucking down books, it felt like coming back to myself in a way." (05:29, Becca)

Lows

• Olivia: Unimpressed psychic reading, with the male psychic coming in “hot and wrong,” fumbling guesses, and suggesting merch for her book.

  • "Immediately he looks at me, he goes, 'All right, so your mom is dead.' And I was like, 'no.' We started from there and from there it did not get better." (06:52, Olivia)

• Becca: An “off day” spent fatigued and exhausted due to the first day of her period, requiring unplanned bed rest.

  • "I woke up, I felt like I had bolloc angles on my arms and legs, like those exercise weights, like, I was just, like, dragging. And then I, you know, I responded to some emails from the couch, and then I was walking towards my office and I just, like, swung a hard left into my bedroom..." (10:26, Becca)

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2. Book Overview & Initial Reactions

Segment: 14:12–19:18

Plot Summary (by Olivia, 14:17)

“AJ and Noah meet as teens working in a video store and train together as actors under the tutelage of his aunt, an aging screen icon. After losing touch, the two cross paths again and again in ways that feel fated as they blaze their separate paths in the entertainment industry.”

Overall Impressions

• Olivia: Liked it, didn’t love it. Found it long and sometimes overwritten, especially the sex scenes, which “felt like 145 pages of sex.” Wanted more AJ, less “magical sex god who was Noah.” Liked the emotional core and character work, but didn’t entirely swoon.

  • "The sex scenes were incredibly well written, very hot, very compelling. Sometimes I felt like there was so much descriptive language… I almost wish were in other parts." (15:21, Olivia)
  • "Whatever it is, that spark when you get while reading, it wasn’t there for some reason." (17:01, Olivia)

• Becca: Absolutely loved it, possibly her favorite book of the year. Praised the novel’s expansiveness, vibrant secondary characters, and how it broke romance conventions, especially in its ending.

  • "I felt like this book was so different than the many contemporary romances that I have consumed. And especially the ending just really surprised me in a way that many contemporary romances do not." (17:19, Becca)

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3. Deep Dive Discussion

Structure & Sections

Segment: 24:07–29:53

• Four Books In One:
  • YA coming-of-age, Hollywood fame, classic romcom, and a “doomed romance.” Both hosts agree the structure delivers a sweeping chronology.
  • "This book almost felt like four books in one… the YA novel in the first part. The second part is this Hollywood story. The second part is kind of a classic rom com. And then the third part is this doomed romance." (18:52, Becca)

Section Breakdowns

• Part 1 (YA & Acting Training): Both loved the specificity (hair dryer exercise, “now four” motif). Becca: “I loved the YA section…so much.” (27:12)
• Part 2 (Improv Show & Hollywood): Neither loved the “show within the book” device—felt disorienting, too serious, and not the comedic romp expected from “improv.” Becca: “The show did not work for me… I was like, I’m gonna keep reading this, but, like, this is not doing it for me.” (28:18)
• Middle Sections: Both agree these are the book's weakest. As Olivia puts it: “The most dangerous part of a book. The middle of the book, like, didn’t work that well for me.” (28:21)
• Part 4 (The Play): Becca loved the meta, emotional confrontation onstage; Olivia found it confusing, “like a Russian nesting doll,” (29:57) but still appreciative of the author’s ambition.

Sex & Romance

Segment: 15:41–30:43

• Olivia: Felt there was “way too much sex,” making it repetitive and undercutting other facets of their relationship. Preferred more emotional depth or personality for AJ.
• Becca: Admired the “abundance,” enjoyed how it subverted typical romance structure—sex was woven into character growth, not just plot progression.
  • "Usually there’s kind of a pattern of escalating physical contact that culminates in one major sex scene…But this, I feel like we were having a lot of the same sex. Like, it was like deep, intimate connection sex again and again." (51:20, Becca)

The “Salty” Motif

• Both laugh over Noah’s repeated “salty” scent description.
  • Olivia: “What are your feelings about how often he was described as smelling salty?” (28:45)
  • Becca: "I like this so much more than hearing about some weird scent notes of cologne…” (28:50)

Character Casting

Segment: 35:45–39:53

• Noah:
  • Becca: Adam Driver is “canon” (military, Juilliard, nose, speech cadence, plus Reylo fanfic inspiration).
  • Olivia: Pictured Jacob Elordi after hearing an interview referencing him.
• AJ:
  • Tall, strawberry blonde, messy bun. Becca thought of singer Audrey Hobert; Olivia cited Sadie Sink and Rachel McAdams as possible types.
• Quote:
  • “It lent so much specificity that I was picturing Adam Driver because, you know, he also has that speech cadence…” (37:09, Becca)

Themes: Fandom, Agency, and Illness

Segment: 30:43–50:15

Fandom & Fanfiction

• Both hosts are fanfiction outsiders but note its prevalence, especially starting with Twilight.
  • "It's kind of a whole other world that I'm just not familiar with, but I do have a lot of respect for." (32:16, Olivia)
• Becca reveals she attended Beanie Baby conventions as a child (33:07), connecting to the novel’s exploration of fandom.

Huntington’s Disease & Foreshadowing

• Both quickly recognize the foreshadowed diagnosis from clues about Noah’s mother.
  • “As soon as he said, 'Have you ever heard of Huntington's disease?' The whole thing came together for me in a very satisfying way...” (40:12, Olivia)
• Both hosts are clear: they would not want to know when/how they die (42:12).

Magic vs. Reality (“The Black Room”)

• Both hosts grapple with whether AJ and Noah’s connection is magical or heightened empathy.
• Author Voice Note (Emma Brodie, 44:30–47:39):
  • “My approach…was to try to push reality right up to the brink, but not to cross the line. AJ and Noah have this heightened empathic connection…but AJ isn’t always right… They have a higher-than-average ability to read each other. So, you know, they’ll see a micro expression or get a vibe… but sometimes that isn’t correct… They are right next to magical realism, possibly sticking a toe in, but it really is just this heightened moment in reality.” —Emma Brodie (46:30)

Questions of Agency & Toxicity

• Major listener voicemail (56:50) questions the “down bad” female trope and asks if AJ loses agency through yearning.
• Becca & Olivia debate: Is AJ’s agency truly lost? Is Noah toxic?
  • "In part four, she did lose her agency, but I felt like she gave it up willingly.” (63:44, Becca)
  • “For me…I don't know her as a character outside of him at all. But I don't really know. When you have this story, I don’t know if that’s even possible because the whole point is that you know them in relation to one another.” (63:47, Olivia)

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4. Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "You wanted things stuffed into different places is what you're saying?" —Becca (15:41, gentle ribbing about sex scenes)
• “This really does sound like an SNL sketch…the van down by the river life coach. But it's like the psychic twist.” —Becca (08:30, about the psychic experience)
• "If you have your full dignity, I don't know that you're yearning hard enough for the romance audience." —Becca (58:45, on romance tropes)
• “I like him the same amount you do, about Brian.” —Emily (73:25, named as best line in the book by both hosts)

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5. Author Insights: Drafting Process

Segment: 74:21–78:31

• Emma Brodie shares she cut the novel down from 182,000 words—double the usual length for contemporary love stories.
• Early drafts were heavily focused on acting exercises and building psychic ability, which were trimmed.
• Characters (including a sister, more show cast, and Noah’s dad) were cut to streamline.
  • "If I go through the blood, sweat and tears of writing 182,000 words, I’m keeping them…" —Olivia (77:44)
  • "The fact that she was like, so we cut 17,000, then we kept...I would be like, do you know what I went through for this? But that’s the writing process." (77:56, Olivia)

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6. End Matter

Segment: 79:02–88:22

Obsessions

• Becca: Margaux Palermo sandals (“so chic…also very comfortable”)
• Olivia: Gracie Abrams’ single “Hit the Wall”

Recent Reads

• Becca:

  • Our Perfect Storm by Carly Fortune (best friends-to-lovers, “so swoony”)
  • Habits of the Sea by Shea Ernshaw (“dreamlike,” “beautifully written surprise,” with Time Traveler’s Wife DNA)

• Olivia:

  • Maine by J. Courtney Sullivan (“liked it” but “preferred The Cliffs”)
  • Catterskill Falls by Allegra Goodman
  • Lake Effect by Cynthia D’Aprix Sweeney (“funny, great character work, made me cry so openly while reading”)

Next Month’s Book Club (Olivia’s Pick)

• Almost Life by Kiran Millwood Hargrave:
  • “Decade-spanning romance and friendship between two women, Erika and Laure—1970s Paris through years…so beautiful…can’t wait to talk.” (88:22)

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7. Time-Stamped Section Guide

| Topic | Timestamp (MM:SS) | |--------------------------------------|-------------------| | Highs & Lows + Blob Story | 00:35–12:07 | | Book Plot & Impressions | 14:12–19:18 | | Structure/Section Debrief | 24:07–29:53 | | Sex & Romance | 15:41–30:43 | | Scent/Casting | 28:45–39:53 | | Fandom/Fanfiction | 30:43–33:50 | | Huntington’s Foreshadowing | 40:12–42:18 | | Magical Realism vs Reality (Author) | 44:30–47:39 | | Astronauticals Improv Show | 48:48–50:15 | | Agency, Toxicity, Listener Call-in | 56:50–64:16 | | Part Four & Ending | 65:10–73:15 | | Author’s Drafting Process | 74:21–78:31 | | Obsessions/Reads/Book Club Reveal | 79:02–88:22 |

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Final Thoughts

• Becca and Olivia deliver a rich, multi-faceted book club that’s both a granular textual analysis and a meta conversation about modern romance tropes, female agency, and how books make us feel. The episode is punctuated with laughter, revealing tangents (paranormal blobs, beanie babies, casting debates), and draws on listener perspectives and author inputs to provide a uniquely interactive bookish conversation. Perfect for readers looking to parse not just the plot, but the bones, muscle, and soul of a buzzy contemporary romance.

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Notable Quote to Close:
“We are in an era of yearning in romance. That's what everyone wants. That's the buzzword right now. And I think you can't yearn without being down bad for someone in a way that makes you a little bit pathetic.” —Becca (58:20)

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[B]

And I'm Olivia, mentor.

[A]

And today is our May book club. And we are talking about into the Blue by Emma Brody. And I have been so excited to record this episode all day.

[B]

I have a lot of thoughts. I have a lot of thoughts. Ooh.

[A]

Okay. I won't ask you good thoughts or bad thoughts yet, even though I want to get into it. Tell me your high from this week.

[B]

I had a really nice day last weekend. It was a Saturday. The weather was absolutely perfect. It's been very all over the place here, but it was flawless. Sunny, 70 degree day. Jake and I went to the farmer's market. We got coffee with Fred, then we walked over to the library where they were doing their annual paranormal festival.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

Which included Bigfoot experts and psychic mediums. We'll get to that in the low.

[A]

This feels very Gilmore Girls. This feels very small town charm.

[B]

It was. Including the fact that. I don't know if I've told you about this, but in Kinderhook, which is a town very close to mine, there's this legend of the Kinderhook Blob.

[A]

Oh, no, I haven't heard about this.

[B]

Yeah, it has a Wikipedia page. It is a paranormal creature that has been sighted over the last. I think it's like a hundred years. And there's an expert in town, his name is Bruce, and he likes to give talks on the Blob. I think there's. This is serious, by the way. If you think like this sounds like a joke, it's. It's a real. I'm not saying the Blob is real necessarily, but there are people who do.

[A]

The lore of the Blob.

[B]

Yeah, he has a documentary on it. So they did a screening. But yeah, it was outside. It was just very beautiful outside. There was a tarot card reader. I sat with her. I did a little 15 minute psychic reading. And then Jake and I went over to the other side of the river to the Catskill Mountains. Beautiful day for a drive, especially in the mountains. And we ended up in this town called Wyndham that I'd never been to before. And we went to dinner at this random restaurant that we picked because there's like three in this town. And we just happened to wander in and it was delicious. Oh, they had soup, dumplings, randomly, and incredible pad Thai. It was called Wyndham Local, if anyone's interested. All insanely fresh ingredients. Then I went to a reading retreat at a random house in the Catskills where they had read my book for book club. So I sat with them on the back porch and answered questions and it was really nice. And. Yeah, and also in between all of that, I went to a brewery and I ran into Casey Shesca, who wrote the Fountain, who I'm doing a book about with in a couple months here in Kinderhook. So it was just like a really nice day. Like I came home and I fell asleep and I just thought, oh, that was, that was nice. That was all nice. Except for the psychic, which we'll get to. But I mean, the psychic wasn't that bad. But again, we'll get there.

[A]

What a busy, wonderful day. However, I'm not done with the Blob.

[B]

Yeah, please, please, ask away. I may not have answers.

[A]

Even as a scaredy cat, I feel like the blob just takes the scare right out of it. Like ghost scary. I know, slasher scary.

[B]

Let me look it up and just give like an official blob.

[A]

I'm picturing flubber. Like that's what I'm picturing Flubber from the movie Flubber.

[B]

So the first sighting was in 1962 and it was two young cousins, 10 year old Bruce Hallenbeck, who. Same Bruce I mentioned first.

[A]

He's really cute.

[B]

Yeah. And seven year old Shari were in the woods when they heard a whistling sound and they saw a white bell shaped blob appearing from behind a pine tree. And then over the next decade, at least four other people reported similar encounters. So notably. I don't like this. The creature is said to occasionally float toward or rush its observers. I don't like that. How big is the Blob?

[A]

I have so many more questions. I gotta watch Bruce's documentary.

[B]

There's a whole thing, it's on Reddit, there's a podcast about it. I should have asked Bruce questions. He was right there. But I selfishly, I was like, tell me about myself, psychics and tarot card readers. But you know, I should have refocused maybe.

[A]

Well, it's. It sounds like this is a yearly event. So for next time, my key question is about the size of the blob.

[B]

Right? Yeah, let me. Hold on. We.

[A]

Is it a humanoid blob or is it a big size blob?

[B]

Blob. Come on, come on. AI, don't fail me now. Oh my God. Seven feet tall. Okay, not great. Amorphous oblong, often described as a giant floating ghost along a pillar of white myth.

[A]

What differentiates the Blob from a ghost? And it sounds like they might be interchangeable.

[B]

I want to do a screening of the documentary for my friends. I should have gone to the one at the library, but it was too nice outside to walk in the doors.

[A]

I really look forward to a future. Three things where you can bring a book report, a blob report.

[B]

I'll do that. Blob report.

[A]

I welcome that.

[B]

Well, what's your high?

[A]

Mine also has to do with my weekend last weekend, which was a much chiller weekend. I ended up having plans on Friday afternoon and then I had plans on Sunday afternoon and I really had nothing in between except for errands. And I spent most of that time reading. I read two books in two days and I haven't been reading as much as I usually do lately, but. And this sensation of just sucking down books, it felt like coming back to myself in a way.

[B]

That sounds very relaxing.

[A]

It was fantastic.

[B]

Very restorative. I'm so glad.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

And I can't wait to hear about the books.

[A]

Yes. I'll tell you more. But you, you've really teed up this psychic experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So on the low end, the psi.

[B]

Yes. The psychic had a, he had a whole setup.

[A]

Male psychic. You don't, I mean, not to stereotype, but I don't encounter many male psychics.

[B]

He was dressed like he was going to like, it's like he's a middle aged man going to golf.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, so with a touch of the reason, I was, for some reason, I was more intrigued by this. It was $50 for 15 minutes, which was expensive to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I was like, well, maybe it's because he's just really good.

[A]

I, I, I thought the exact same thing.

[B]

So I was like, sure. Whatever it was, it was.

[A]

Or maybe it's male psychic entitlement.

[B]

Maybe it was sunny, breezy, beautiful. I was like, you know what? Anything is possible. Let me sit down. So I sit down immediately. He looks at me, he goes, all right, so your mom is dead. And I was like, no. We started from there and, and from there it did not get better. And then it kept evolving. He'd be like, so your little ones are your life? And I was like, I don't have children. And then I said, but I was like, let me just throw him a bone. I was like, but I do have a book that I wrote called Little One. And he was like, that is it, that is why I said that. Of course. That's why those words. And so then it just kept evolving where he would be like, I get the Sense you're really. You're really behind on this next project. And I was like, well, I am a few weeks past my deadline, but it was kind of arbitrary. And he's like, you really need to stop dragging your ass. And he. And just. And I was like, excuse me. We are sitting outside of our local library. I don't need to be yelled at. And I said, well, I guess maybe I could go a little bit faster. And he was like, that's. You know, it's just your adult adhd. And I was like, what is this? I was like, what is this? This is ridiculous. And then he was like, do you think there's, like, a merch line you could make for your book, like a calendar? And I just thought, this is ridiculous. But it. But it's a weird dynamic because I could see him floundering. And I was like, do I stand my ground and not give him anything, you know? Or do I make this less painful and just say, like, oh, yeah, my little one, that's my book. You're. You're totally right. It is like my child.

[A]

Not to get ahead of ourselves into the book, but this really does sound like an SNL sketch of, like, it almost is the Chris Farley guy, the van down by the river, Life coach. But it's like the psychic twist.

[B]

Yep. Yeah. I was like, this has not gone well for you. I'm getting the sense, but you should

[A]

have turned the tables. You should have been like, I'm getting something here.

[B]

Well, then I went to the tarot card reader after, and it was actually much better. And for the record, I don't necessarily believe in any of this. Like, capital B believe. I just find it interesting. And like most people, I just like people talking about myself and seeing what I respond to and, like, what feels true to me or what doesn't. But, yeah, he came in hot and wrong. So, yeah, I wouldn't recommend. But in a weird way, if he showed up next year to the paranormal festival, I might do it again. I might do it again.

[A]

You want to see if he's improved. You want to see if he remembers you. Like, and that's the thing. In a small town festival, you're getting a lot of repeat business year over year. If you take good notes, you could probably really improve.

[B]

Yeah, I think he could. It's weird because I wanted him to succeed, you know? I did. I did.

[A]

Maybe it was an off.

[B]

We all have off days in our jobs, you know, so, like, it could have just been that. And that's fine.

[A]

The Big town paranormal festival. Sounds like a really bad time to have an off day for a psychic.

[B]

I know he wasn't also getting a lot of action at the booth, so the empath part of me just felt bad all around for. For him.

[A]

He sounds like a great book character.

[B]

You should see if there's a way

[A]

to put him in one of your books. And then in a couple years when he starts failing at this, you can be like, you know, I took a lot of inspiration from our session.

[B]

I'm gonna pile that away. He's gonna be like, I knew it. I knew it. This is the. That's even better.

[A]

That's exactly what he should say.

[B]

Well, what is your low?

[A]

My low is just. Yeah, yesterday I had such a weird off day at my job, but also at life. It was the first day of my period and I just had this, like, bone deep exhaustion, something that I've rarely experienced outside of, you know, taking a red eye flight or being sick. I just felt so blah, blah, even though I slept nine hours the night before. And so I woke up, I felt like I had, like, bolloc angles on my arms and legs, like those exercise weights, like, I was just, like, dragging. I was so upset to be out of bed. And then I, you know, I responded to some emails from the couch, and then I was walking towards my office and I just, like, swung a hard left into my bedroom and I was like, it's okay. You can work from bed. I, like, got in bed and I was kind of in this, like, twilighty sleep for two or three hours. I just felt like crud. Finally I texted you and I was like, do you have any interest in moving our podcast recording? Which, thankfully you said yes, by the time I went to bed last night. Like, I kind of started back on the upswing around 3 o', clock, but. Oh, I felt like junk.

[B]

I'm sorry, that's the worst feeling.

[A]

That's usually not a symptom that I have. Like, I'll. I'll have cramps, but I'm usually. I've never. I don't know if I want to say never, but, like, I don't know that I've experienced that before.

[B]

Yeah, not pleasant, but.

[A]

No.

[B]

Glad you're back to normal. Just a random thing, hopefully and will never happen again.

[A]

I hope so. I hope so. Well, let's take an ad break and then let's get into this episode because I have a lot to talk about.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Okay, into this book, how about a short plot summary?

[B]

Yes, AJ and Noah meet as teens working in a video store and trained together as actors under the tutelage of his aunt, an aging screen icon. After losing touch, the two cross paths again and again in ways that feel faded as they blaze their separate Past in the entertainment industry.

[A]

Okay. I have no prior knowledge. What did you think about this book?

[B]

I'm still sort of processing how I feel, so you're going to hear me kind of talk through it in real time. I think where I landed is that I liked it. I didn't love it.

[A]

Okay. Talk to me about why that is. I know that you're not a huge romance reader generally. Is it the genre? Is it something about it? Talk us through again.

[B]

I'm still kind of figuring it out, but I think a large part of it is that it felt very long to me.

[A]

I do not disagree.

[B]

And I think it's not necessarily maybe the. The length in and of itself, but the parts that I felt were way too full were not necessarily the ones that I would want to be that full. Oh, that makes more sense.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, like, for example, I, at certain times, felt like the sex scenes were incredibly well written, very hot, very compelling. Sometimes I felt like there was so much descriptive language, which of course you need, and prose stuffed into those that I almost wish were in other parts. Okay, does that make sense?

[A]

You wanted things stuffed into different places is what you're saying?

[B]

Yes. I mean, listen, I think we had about 145 pages of sex. It felt like. So I guess it's just on the mind. I think I wanted more, like, more of AJ's personality and less of, like, talking about this magical sex God who was Noah, you know, I don't know. And because the sex scenes were often like, they have sex, then they have sex again, then they have sex again, again. It was like the things that worked the first time. By the fourth, I was kind of like, all right, we understand.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I flew through this. I think I read this in less than 24 hours.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Absolute, like, powered through those pages. I didn't see the twist coming, like, the. The reason that they broke up. And I did not for a second think it was cheesy or, you know, when you get to a twist or you. When you get to a reveal like that and you're kind of like, oh, come on. Like, I never felt that. I felt like it was so earned and so emotional. I believe them as characters, but, like, whatever it is that spark when you get while reading, it wasn't there for some reason. It should be, maybe for me, but it just wasn't. But I still really loved it, and I totally understand why other people did. I listened to so many interviews with this author afterward. I find the whole process so fascinating of her writing this book. Anyway, so that's it. That's my short version, but we'll get into the long version. But reacquaint listeners. Why you fell in love with this book, because I know you fell very hard for it.

[A]

I fell very hard for it. I think this is my favorite book that I've read this year. I mean, technically I first read it last year, but I just reread it, so I get to count it this year too. I felt like this book was so different than the many contemporary romances that I have consumed. And especially the ending just really surprised me in a way that many contemporary romances do not. And I was just left gobsmacked by this. I loved this. And it's funny because you were describing that you felt like it was too long in some places. And when I was rereading it, I think that's almost one of the things I most appreciated about it, was its expansiveness. So as a comparison over the weekend, one of the books that I read was Our Perfect Storm, but Carly Fortune, which was also a five star book for me, but it was a five star book in a very different way. And that book was very insular. It's basically this couple in a hotel room. For most of the book, it's like these two characters, they go on some activities and they have this itinerary that doesn't really matter, but it's really just these two people versus this book almost felt like four books in one where it's like the YA novel in the first part. The second part is this Hollywood story. The second part is kind of a classic rom com. And then the third part is this, like, doomed romance. And I loved getting to see them traverse through these different stories. And I felt like there was such an expansiveness also in I knew their families, I knew their career history. Like, there was just. They felt so fleshed out to me in a way that sometimes romance characters do not. I was just so in it. And then, as I said, the play in the final section, which we'll talk more about later, was just so different than any romance I've ever read. And I, like, am awed by how the author ended this story.

[B]

So did you listen to this when you read it the second time?

[A]

Yeah, so the first time I read it with my eyes, and then this time I listened to it and Julia Whelan narrated it. And I have not read a Julia Whelan audiobook in a minute, and I forgot just how good she is. Oh, my God, Olivia, like, her ability to take on different voices And I get an ick a little bit sometimes listening to romances on audiobook because you have the same actor playing the male and the female, and it can kind of. I don't know, sometimes it just gets a little cringey. And she just so fully embodied both of these characters. I was lost in it the second time. Like, I think it was possibly even better on audio than it was as a physical book. It's so, so good. Although I. I will say that I did an unkindness to myself. So I started it last Friday. And I think with this audiobook, my comfortable speed was like, 1.3x. And then it became clear that it was quite long, and I was, like, not quite on target for how fast I needed to read it. So then I bumped it up to 1.5, which was totally fine. And then there was this day where I'd. I'd blocked off three hours of my day to finish this, and I had way more book than I needed to finish than I could. So I just bumped it up to 2.1. And I know some audiobook listeners listen at these high speeds. It honestly hurts my brain. Like, I feel like I'm on a roller coaster, and I'm, like, strapped in. I'm just, like, sitting in a chair, holding the arms, just like, my brain is sizzling.

[B]

I can't even do past 1.2, really past 1.2.

[A]

It depends on the narrator.

[B]

I feel like I cannot do it. I really can't.

[A]

It depends because, like, I can't listen to our podcast at 1.25. I talk way too fast for that. But a lot of audiobook narrators are very slow and methodic. I'm doing such a bad impression, but I do like it a little faster. Like, 1.3 is a happy place for me sometimes. But 2.1 was just.

[B]

Especially the end where they're going through all the different endings. I would feel like I was on. No, it wouldn't be good.

[A]

I felt like a robot short circuiting.

[B]

This is a slight tangent, I guess, but I'm listening to London Falling right now, which is the nonfiction book that's been everywhere about. Anyway, you can look it up if you're interested. But I tried it on 1.5, and it's a very serious, nonfiction reported story, and I couldn't do it. It just felt ridiculous. But being like. And then I talked to this police officer, and the police officer said this, and it was really sad. Obviously, that's not doing justice to the writing, but it just.

[A]

It.

[B]

It didn't fit. So I'll probably be done with that book in 2028 if you'd like to check that kid. It's been now like three weeks, so it's really not moving fast for me. I did want to mention something about format of book for this, which is that this book keyed me into something I had not considered about myself. But I think I read this on my Kindle because I had an advanced copy that I had been saving for a long time and that I gotten on NetGalley because you said so many great things about it. And then I saved it for right before this because I wanted it to be fresh. And I read like probably 80% physical books. And I think I enjoy books less if I am reading them on my Kindle.

[A]

Really.

[B]

Like, I think I would have maybe liked this more. Like, say this was a 3.5 for me. I think it could have been closer to a four if it was a physical book. And I don't know if this is just me or if this is a real phenomenon. Tell me, listeners.

[A]

Well, I almost have gotten to the opposite place. I used to only read physical, and then over the past two years especially, I'm reading mostly digital books on my Kindle. And I like the font size a little bit bigger on my Kindle. And so then sometimes when I read a physical book, it feels too small and it's like I'm straining and I'm like, this isn't as enjoyable. I wish I was reading this on the Kindle so I could adjust the font size a little bigger. Right now I am reading a book that is typeset in the smallest font. I'm like, is this font for ants? Like, it's so small.

[B]

Speaking of size, there's something about a chunky book that, like, I use the word expansive, that it feels like I am truly opening that book and going into the world. And I think this is maybe part of what appeals to people about fantasy. Whereas if I don't have any visual representation of the size of the book and I'm just on the Kindle, it can just kind of feel like it's just going and going and going and going. Which again, I guess people, like, have

[A]

you, like, thing at the bottom where it tells you how much is left in the book.

[B]

Yes, I do. But it's not the same as, like, holding it. I don't know. Those are my thoughts on book size.

[A]

Okay, wait. Going back to my thesis, this is four books in one. Almost. Outside of the sex, were there sections that worked for you better than others. Were there any that you really liked? Were there any that you really disliked?

[B]

You know, I think it's kind of the same as the. The sex scenes in some ways for me, which is like. I can't say that I strongly disliked any of it in any way. And in fact, a lot of it I thought was great. I actually liked a lot of it enough that it made it more confusing for me because I was like, why am I not, like, swooning over this? Because I do. Even the parts that I found a little bit convoluted or slow, I didn't find myself disliking. I more just felt a little bit off about it. For example, the part in the beginning where they're, like, in the black box and they're learning all of this stuff I found. This is gonna sound really weird, probably. It felt almost psychedelic to me, to the point where I fell asleep and had the weirdest dreams, where I felt like I was tripping because I couldn't quite tell what was reality or not. And it just. It kind of felt like a Russian nesting doll. Like, not necessarily a story within a story within a story, but almost like feelings within feelings of the feelings. And sometimes I thought that was wonderful and great and repulsive, and other times I was like, what is happening? Okay, tell me which parts were your favorite? Or if there were any that didn't work for you, maybe.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, I loved the prologue. I want to stop there for a second because I thought the prologue was so genius, especially going back and rereading it and seeing what it tells you versus what it holds back. Because basically, you get this prologue, they're rehearsing for the play at the very end of the book, and you know that they're breaking up right after the play. But she doesn't want it to happen. But you have no context. You don't know about his disease. You don't know about all of their history. Like, you just. You kind of know nothing. And so then coming back to that at the end, it's so much richer. I know that prologues can be a little controversial in writing advice circles, but. Oh, my God, rereading this when I was like, this is a masterclass in prologues.

[B]

Okay, so this is another point about the Kindle, because I had a point when I first read the prologue. I didn't really quite understand what was happening, because you're not really supposed to. Then I. About halfway through, I felt like, I want to go back to the prologue and read it now. That I have some idea of what might be happening. But because I was on a Kindle, it felt like too much work to, like, go to the index. And my Kindle is cold and slow. So if I was reading a physical book, I might have been able to go back and, like, especially when I got to the end, go back to the beginning and really have that more satisfying experience. But I think on its own, it kind of just served to be disorienting for me, but. But I get why it would be, like, such a good plot device.

[A]

This is a note to self. We're not letting you read any Kindle books for book club anymore.

[B]

I mean, I probably shouldn't be on a Kindle for many reasons, so.

[A]

I know, but reading in advance is a little bit of a requirement.

[B]

Yeah. If you're getting galleys and stuff. Yes.

[A]

And then I loved the entirety of part one. Oh, my gosh. I loved the YA section so much. I also loved, like, the specificity of some of the things that recur throughout the novel. So, like, the hair dryers as one of their acting exercises, or, like, now four as a recurring motif. I loved those things that kept popping up. And I also love the general conceit, not just in this book, in any book, of, does he like me or is this acting? And, oh, my gosh, my heart was. I was so giddy because I felt like a teenager reading her. Evaluate this. Oh, my gosh, I loved the first section so much.

[B]

Yeah, it was really good. I also thought it was very fresh and, like, I'd never read anything like that.

[A]

Yeah. The second section did not work that well for me. I loved the setup. I loved the conceit of it that, you know, she's in an improv troupe. She's kind of, like, flailing in her career. The show did not work for me. And we can talk about that more later. That was the part that I was like, I'm gonna keep reading this, but, like, this is not doing it for me.

[B]

Yeah, I have some thoughts about that as well.

[A]

The first half of the third part didn't work for me either. Like, it's really funny. The most dangerous part of a book. The middle of the book, like, didn't work that well for me. But then by the time in part three, where they got to the cons, I loved that. I loved the cons. And obviously, part four with the play, I loved.

[B]

Can I ask you a very specific question about if you like this or not?

[A]

Yes, of course.

[B]

What are your feelings about how often he was Described as smelling salty.

[A]

I did not mind it because sometimes in romance novels, they give the male main character a smell that is supposed to be a cologne. And, like, you're constantly bringing up how he smells like tobacco and orange blossoms or something. And I'm like, what? So being a romance reader hearing salty, which I just think of as, like, skin smell, sweat, I was like, I like this so much more than hearing about some weird scent. Notes of cologne that he might smell

[B]

like, or just like musk in general, which I guess is maybe salt. I'll accept that it's valid. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I could have had half as many.

[A]

Personally, I'm wondering, and we'll have to test this theory in the Facebook group for people who it works really well for, are they romance readers? Because there's so many things about the sex scenes. I have more to say about that, about the smell that I'm like, oh, I have a lot of thoughts on this as a romance reader.

[B]

You know what's kind of interesting is that I was, in tandem with reading this, this book. I was writing, like, my first ever sex scene that's like, oh, more than just flirting or, like, will they, won't they? And I was like, oh, I think it's like two chili peppers. And then I read this, and you

[A]

were like, it's like it's a third of a chili pepper at best.

[B]

I was like, I. I need to go back. Or like, if I don't want to add more, Like, I don't know, thinking about, like, in a sex scene, like, what makes it sexy to you? The reader, I think, is super or the writer, I think is so interesting. And, yeah, it did feel like a masterclass on writing spice to me in a lot of ways, even though it wasn't necessarily 100%, like, my perfect thing or whatever in terms of writing. But anyway, well, wait, before we get

[A]

to the romance, I would like to talk about fandom as a theme here and how fandom applies to our lives. So we first meet AJ when she's 17. She's working in this video store, and she is writing Astronautical's fanfiction. And fandom becomes a really big theme in the book. And I was also listening to some interviews with the author, and she talked about how one of the inspirations for this book was that she was reading a lot of fanfiction around the time where she was coming up with the idea for this. I'm curious. Have you ever read fanfiction before or wrote it?

[B]

No.

[A]

I was wondering if you had an Edward Cullen fanfiction phase was the reason I asked this?

[B]

No. I don't even know if I knew fan fiction existed in high school, honestly. Like, I don't think I even knew that Twilight started as fan fiction. Yeah. No. You?

[A]

No. I'm aware that so many books that I've enjoyed have come out of fanfiction or are written by fan fiction writers, so I have a tremendous respect for it. I kind of have this feeling, like, when I became aware of fanfiction was only after we started the podcast. And I kind of have this feeling of, like, I have this, like, never ending TBR that I'll never get through. So, like, I feel guilty by then going and reading fanfiction. I don't know. I've never read direct, like, AO3 fanfiction before. I've certainly read things that started as fan fiction.

[B]

Yeah. It's kind of a whole other world that I'm just not familiar with, but I do have a lot of respect for.

[A]

Yeah. What about just fandom in general? What about going to a fan convention? Have you ever been to any type of fan convention or is there any that you could see yourself going to? Like, what are you a fan of?

[B]

I guess I could go to BravoCon, but.

[A]

Sounds really overwhelming.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I don't think I could ever justify spending money on something like that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Like, if I had a work assignment or something, I'd be like, oh, fun. If there was like, a Barbara King Solver fan convention.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Well, I mean, actually, the Jenna's Book Club Festival thing in Nashville was sort of like my ideal fan convention because it was just book club fiction authors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Other people who like the same things. Snacks. I mean, it was kind of perfect. What about you?

[A]

Well, I don't know if this counts as a fan convention, but the closest thing I've been to to a fan convention was when I was a child. I don't know if you know this about me. I used to go to beanie baby conventions.

[B]

I. You should have seen how my eyebrows just shot up. I did not know that. I don't know what I was expecting. I was like, I know you touched John Stamos hand.

[A]

No, I guess it's maybe more of a. I don't know if it would be a trade show is the right word. I don't know what word. Swap meet. I don't know what word is proper for this, but there were, like, different stalls where people were selling rare beanie babies and you could, like, trade beanie babies. You could sell your Beanie Babies. You could buy new ones. This was the height of Beanie Beanie Baby mania. If this was not clear, and we used to go, I went more than once.

[B]

I think that's inspiring. You know, interestingly, talking about the paranormal thing at the library, it was clear when I was there that there were people that had come from other places beyond this small town for this. Like, this was their thing. And there is something I found very endearing and charming about that. And I don't mean it in like, wow, these people like this weird stuff and cute. Good for them. I mean, like, it's kind of cool that there are all these little groups where people find their people, you know, and they find the things that they love. And no matter how out of the norm it may seem, there's something kind of cute about that, that humans do that.

[A]

I mean, my deepest recent experience of fandom was absolutely heated rivalry. Everyone involved in that show is so on fire that, you know, they're not doing a con. They're starring in big deal movies. And like, I think Jacob Tierney has this, like, other Netflix show that he got Greedlit. So, you know, I don't think that that's realistic, but I could kind of see myself in 10 years still wanting to go to a con for that, if that existed. You know what? I also. Do you remember how I think it was last year there was that one night only Dawson's Creek reunion thing. It was at a Broadway theater and it was to raise money for James Van Der Beek's cancer treatment.

[B]

And yes, I don't know that I

[A]

was aware of it when tickets went on sale, but after seeing it, I was like, oh, I really would have loved to have gone to that.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't watch that show, but I can imagine. Like, I've considered going to Boy Meets World events when, like, the podcast was touring, which I don't really listen to anymore, but there was a time when I would have gone to that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Okay, wait, pivoting slightly. You were talking about how Noah is described as smelling salty as you were reading this. Did you cast them as particular actors slash real people in your head?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And did this affect your read of the book? Because I think there is an obvious answer here on him.

[B]

Yes, there is an obvious answer on him. Jacob Elordi, right?

[A]

No, no. Adam Driver. Okay, so she was.

[B]

That does make sense, I guess.

[A]

No, this is like. I think this is canon. This is canon. So she was reading and potentially writing Reylo fanfiction. Well, I did think of that. Because the role Adam Driver actually plays.

[B]

Rey.

[A]

I guess I'm not sure. I. Clearly, I haven't seen the Star wars, but, like, the way he's described, like, the nose and like, the. I don't think she ever uses the word ugly. Hot. But, like, there were just so many things where I was like, this is Adam Driver. But you were picturing Jacob Elordi, who's, like, more classically hot.

[B]

I was picturing Jacob Elordi. And that wasn't the worst part of the book for me. No, it was quite a nice part.

[A]

But I was picturing Adam Driver, which

[B]

also added, like, I was obviously paying so much. And he's 6 5. Yeah.

[A]

But, like, Adam Driver's also very tall and he's six three. Okay.

[B]

So the reason I thought it was Jacob Elordi was because I listened to an interview with her, and the interviewer said. Said he's giving Jacob Elordi. And then the author was like, oh, yeah, sure, sure. Not so much that I thought she was agreeing with it, but I thought, oh, other people are having this experience where they're thinking about Jacob Elordi's hands throughout.

[A]

Oh, it lent so much specificity that I was picturing Adam Driver because, you know, he also has that speech cadence. Like, I was hearing Julian Waylon say the words, but then in my head, I was also hearing Adam Driver say the words.

[B]

You know, I think both of these fan castings would work because the one thing that both of those actors have in common, I think, is that they're both very serious.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

And I was really getting that over and over. Like, how serious the method acting of it all. It really made me think of both of them. But are you into Adam Driver?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it just. It felt very clear even before I listened to these interviews that this was, to me, supposed to be Adam Driver.

[B]

The more that you say that, it does make sense. And I do think that Adam Driver is attractive, for the record.

[A]

But he also shares certain biographical details, like the military going to Juilliard.

[B]

Right. Oh, my God. Okay. Yes, clearly. Wow.

[A]

I'm not saying you're wrong. Like, you can picture whoever you want, but I think that if I had read this book picturing Jacob Elordi, that would have been a very different reading experience for me.

[B]

I can see that. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Wait.

[B]

What? Definitely.

[A]

What about her? Because she is almost never described. He calls her beautiful a bunch of times, but, like, she has almost no traits ascribed to.

[B]

She has a messy strawberry blonde bun. What more do you need to Know, I. I do remember that there was

[A]

one part where her hair is described as being frizzy, and she, like. I think she calls herself an ogre or something. She's tall.

[B]

Yes. She's five. Nine, I think, is what they said. I was kind of picturing Sadie Sink because of the strawberry blonde hair. I mean, Sadie Sinks, red hair. But I think the fact that she's ever being, like, put in front of a camera made me think that she was, like, very classically pretty. Maybe not on the same level as Noah, but I don't know. Did you have anyone?

[A]

When I clocked that detail of, like, the strawberry blonde, messy hair and tall, my brain went to the singer, Audrey Hobert, who is like. Oh, kind of like an awkward. Like, she just has, like, an awkwardness about her. And once I clocked into that, I. That was all I could picture. I don't know that I'm. Right.

[B]

Interesting. Okay. Not what I would have pictured, but I do see why you got there. What are. I don't even know what other actresses are strawberry blonde.

[A]

I feel like Emma Stone has been at times.

[B]

Oh, Evan. Rachel Wood. I could see that. Oh, okay. I don't know where she is these days, but okay. Or, like, Rachel McAdams had red hair at one point. Could see that. Okay.

[A]

Okay. So in part one, there are two kind of, like, big moments that foreshadow later plot developments. So the first one, when Noah brings AJ to meet his mom. You said you didn't clock anything about a future diagnosis or Huntington's disease. Had you even heard of Huntington's disease?

[B]

I had. As soon as he said, have you ever heard of Huntington's disease? The whole thing came together for me in a very satisfying way. I mean, it's very dark, but, like, immediately I was like, oh, he has it too. And it just all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I was go, yeah. So had you ever heard of it?

[A]

I have heard of it, and I have, like, a very particular, like, morbid fear of it. And so when I got to the scene with his mother, I was like, that's Huntington's disease. And, like, he's gonna have it. I. Oh. Really knew in my marrow. So in. I don't know if it was in middle school or high school, we, like, watched this documentary about Huntington's disease, and it was terrifying.

[B]

I can imagine. It's. It's similar to als, right?

[A]

Yeah. But it's, like a combination of.

[B]

Yeah. It's horrifying.

[A]

Other things. Yeah. And then in college, after college, I had this friend who Had Huntington's disease in her family.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

And I don't know that I'm remembering this correctly. I want to say that she was deciding whether or not to get tested to see if she had the gene, and I think she decided not to. But I believe her mom did get tested, and her mom did have it.

[B]

Oh, no. That's horrific.

[A]

Yeah. And we're not really, like. We're like Instagram Facebook friends, but, like, we're not really in touch. So I honestly have no idea, like, how any of this has come to come to bear in her life. But, yeah, the minute we were in that hospital room, I was like, this is Huntington's disease.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Didn't ruin anything about the plot. And as somebody who doesn't usually guess twists, I was like, if anything, like, really giddy and justified when I got to his confession.

[B]

Yeah. I can't imagine it would take anything away.

[A]

No. The other thing that comes back as important is they have this debate, this seemingly, like they're playing an acting game at the video store of whether it's better to know how and when you'll die. And I know this is a very big discussion, but I'm curious, what if you have a gut feeling about what side of that argument you would take?

[B]

I don't think I'd want to know.

[A]

Same. No, same.

[B]

No, I don't think I'd want to know at all.

[A]

Same. I mean, I think there's the argument of, like, if you knew, you would live differently in the near term, but I think it would hang so heavy over you that I don't know that I would be able to enjoy things in the same way.

[B]

I think that if you are in a situation where you do know that in some regard, I think that is the benefit of it. Like, if there's any silver lining. Not to say there's silver lining when it comes to a disease like this, of course, but I feel like that's when you need something. That's when you need an upside to be like, okay, well, at least I get to live fully now. Like, I. There's a lot of other things. I enjoy not having that information in the meantime.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I think I tend to agree.

[B]

Well, we mentioned. Or I. I think I mentioned the black room of it all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which quite literally tripped me out. And again, it wasn't necessarily in a bad way. It was just kind of disorienting to me. But, like, how did you think of that? I don't know. It was a part where, for me I was thinking, and a lot of people had described this book as like, a genre mashup. Yes. Like, is this like a magical realism thing?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Or is this, like, just an acting technique? And then I thought, like, does this actually exist in the acting world? I was having that thought.

[A]

So I don't know.

[B]

How did you feel about all of it?

[A]

I'm totally with you. So the first time I read it, I think I just took it as, like, a very deep emotional connection between them. I didn't take it as a literal space where they went to, but in the pitch I got for it. And in hearing other people talk about it, like, it always kind of comes back to this sci fi element. And I was like, well, I guess the only sci fi element, as far as I understand it, is that, like, sci fi is the genre of the show that they're on. I was like, am I missing something? Like, I know Katie from Beach Reads and Bubbly said, like, there's a sci fi element, but it's, like, really light. It's not too much for was like, did I miss something? So this time when I was rereading it, I was like, okay, so am I given to understand that this is, like, magic happening between them? Okay. So anyway, I felt like we needed to know the answer, so I sent Emma Brody a voice note to ask her, and here's what she said.

[C]

Hi, Becca. Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for reading into the Blue for the Baton Paper Book Club in May. That's just amazing. I'm totally over the moon. Okay, so the two questions. The first one is, do you think of AJ and Noah's connection as a magical realism element or just a deep emotional connection? What a great question. So I would say that my approach to this was to try to push reality right up to the brink, but not to cross the line. So obviously AJ and Noah have this heightened empathic connection, but I wanted to make sure that it was clear that AJ isn't always right. Like, I think they have a higher than average ability to read each other. So, you know, they'll see a micro expression or get a vibe, and that sort of translates as a tug in the sternum. And AJ Often will have a very certain thought of, like, this is what he's thinking, but sometimes that isn't correct. So, for example, in part one, when Noah comes into the video store and he's upset because he's just found out about his mother's diagnosis, and AJ has a very strong sense that this is because he is upset, that he may not get to help his mother and that they may not continue her care. And then in part two, when he's actually disclosing what was happening, she realizes that her very certain sense in that moment was incorrect. So it doesn't happen all that often. And I would say that they have, like, a hundred percent accuracy in terms of picking up on something happening, but they're not always totally right about what that thing is. I will also say that something I never explicitly say in the book, but that I'm sort of privileged to as the writer, is that AJ has no poker face, whereas Noah really does. So because the book is from AJ's perspective, we don't really hear that about her. Like, it's not like, something that people outwardly reflect to her, because I think she has masking techniques. It's not like she's a completely open book, but I think she is much more reactive. So I would say that his ability to read her is probably a bit more accurate than her ability to read him. And then as far as, like, what that translates to, like, them being able to do incredible art together, them being able to have this, like, very vibrant sexual connection, all of that is stuff that I absolutely think feels magical and is, you know, brushing up against magical realism. But I think that it's 100% possible to happen in reality. Like the thing where, you know, they're in. In a room together with a hundred other people and they can sort of smell each other. I personally have had that experience, so I didn't feel like I was writing something that was false there. And I think within the realm of performance, there absolutely are things that happen on a psychic level that are just hard to explain, which is part of why I wanted to give them that. So my answer is that they are right next to magical realism, possibly sticking a toe in, but it really is just this, like, heightened moment in reality.

[A]

Olivia, you could have knocked me over with a feather. Because I thought for sure she was going to say that it was magic.

[B]

Me, too. Me too.

[A]

And hearing her speak to AJ's fallibility and her not always being right was a really interesting layer to this of, like, it's not necessarily an unreliable narrator in the way of Gone Girl, where she's lying to you on purpose, but that, I guess I had assumed that when she was talking about this connection, I had assumed what she was telling me was always accurate.

[B]

Yeah. Listening to her talk, obviously, I know the book is from AJ's perspective, but when she said that, I was like, oh, is it? It Is. Yeah. And I think, in a way, it kind of reads as third person. Is that weird? But it's.

[A]

Well, I think it is written in.

[B]

Right.

[A]

No, I think it is third person.

[B]

Oh, really? Okay.

[A]

But it's. It's a close third. It's not omniscient third. So you're only in AJ's head.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Well, then that would explain that. But I guess, in a way, I sort of forgot that we. We don't get that perspective from Noah in the same way, is what I. I guess. But I hadn't thought about it that way until she said it.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Moving into part two, we get into the Astronauticals reboot. And truthfully, I said before, this is my least favorite section. And I realized on rereading this book that I think part of my issue with it was that because of the word improv, I kept expecting it to be funny. And it was a dramatic show, and I was waiting for it to get funny. Did you have any issue with the nature of the improv or with the show that they were on? Like, did you understand what you were supposed to be seeing during that?

[B]

I 100% felt the same way as you because I thought it was supposed to be funny. And then I was like, okay, it's incredibly serious and melodramatic, and the way

[A]

that they describe the original Astronauticals is as, like, a sketch comedy show, if I'm not mistaken.

[B]

Yes. I was skimming a lot.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I will say the scene that leads to the. No viral clip. Yeah, that was very enjoyable for me to read. I found that to be very compelling. And I was like, ooh. And there were moments like that sprinkled throughout, but it was. It was so much. And then, like, the. Her character, but it. Like, she wasn't that character, but, like, she was trying to be that character, but the character was actually someone else. It was just, again, that Russian nesting doll sensation just at times felt really dizzying to me. So we've talked a little bit about the sex scenes in this book. There's a lot of spice. Tell me how you thought about it.

[A]

Well, I think I was surprised by how much spice there was. I didn't dislike it. And I agree with you that the sex scenes were incredibly well written. I thought specifically, like, the two hero sex scenes, like, the biggest, most important sex scenes, the one in this section where they have sex for the first time after he tells her about Huntington's disease. I thought it was incredibly emotionally powerful of them experiencing a romantic or sexual connection for the first time outside of their largely chaste kiss when she's in high school. And then the second hero sex scene being after his aunt dies and when they're at the reception after the funeral. I thought both of those were incredibly powerful. However, I was surprised how much sex was used other times. Sex dreams, sex fantasies. After they're together. Using sex, like sex is very clearly a part of their connection, and it's, like, very core to their relationship. But I was surprised because in romance, I feel like usually there's kind of a pattern of escalating physical contact that culminates in one major sex scene, sometimes a secondary sex scene, if the emotional connection between the two characters has changed. Like, maybe they're enemies to lovers, and the first time they have sex, it's hate sex. And then the second time they have sex, it's more tender. And you. You understand that their emotional relationship to one another have changed. But this, I feel like we were having a lot of the same sex. Like, it was like deep, intimate connection sex again and again. And I think in the fourth section, which we'll obviously get to, some of that is like, they're using sex to avoid talking about their feelings and their future. So I understood it and I really liked it. But I think that's an area where maybe I, as a fan of sex scenes, I could have used some trimming, perhaps in that. In the show and in the sex scenes, I'm like, yeah, we could have trimmed a little more.

[B]

Yeah, I'm with you. But I do think something that really impressed me about this book was that I can imagine the story without the sex. In a weird way, I was hugely

[A]

convinced of their meant to be ness and of their connection. Like, it could. I agree with you, it could have faded to black, and I would have been like, yes, I understand that they're having great sex, but I think the

[B]

way the sex was written, it really served to, as you said, like, illustrate something important about their relationship. Not just that they're a couple who have sex, but that, like, their sex is this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, and I think I've never really read a book that felt like that. And regardless of whether it was perfect for me or whatever, I thought it was perfectly done because I think it's exactly what the author wanted to achieve.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Moving into part three, we get another time lapse. Astronauticals has aired and it has largely bombed. And AJ's gone from creating fanfiction to being the source of it. And she's working as a writer at SNL and Olivia. I know that you really liked romantic comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld, another romance that's partially set at snl. How did this section work for you?

[B]

Again, in some parts, great. In other parts, not so great. I preferred the SNL description, relationship. Everything in romantic comedy. I preferred that book overall. But then again, when he's doing the opening monologue and he pulls her on, even as problematic as that is, there was something about that that reminded me so much of the Rachel McAdams, Ryan Gosling kiss at the MTV Video Awards. Do you remember that?

[A]

I remember that, but I don't know, like, the history behind it.

[B]

Well, I think it was, like, the award for best kiss, but it was this moment where.

[A]

But they were dating, right?

[B]

I think so. It was this moment where it was, like, clearly very performative, but also, you can see there's something underneath it and it. And, like, the crowd is freaking out. And I don't know, there's something about. And I've always thought that clip is just, like, an iconic piece of pop culture, and there's something about that that gave me that same feeling of giddiness. But then the more I thought about it, I was like, she could have lost her job, probably. Like, what are you doing? You can't just.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Bomb. First of all, you're putting so many people's entire thing at risk that they've helped. I don't know. That's how it felt to me.

[A]

I want to talk more about that, but I want to loop back really quickly to romantic comedy, which I strongly preferred this book to romantic comedy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And first of all, I found that there's a Covid plotline in romantic comedy that I found extremely triggering and felt somewhat unnecessary to me. But I felt like that book, it in some ways lacked stakes, that this book had. Like, this book was about, he has a disease, he has a fatal diagnosis, and, like, they're trying to decide whether to be Taylor versus that book. I felt like they kept having the same argument about, was she pretty enough? Was she worthy enough to be with him? And I found that so frustrating.

[B]

I can see that. Yeah, I understand that for sure.

[A]

But at the same time, I do totally recognize what you're saying about, like, some toxicity here. And it was during that SNL kiss scene that, like, my. My spidey senses of, like, is Noah toxic? Started to peak. Like, the, I'll ignore your emails, but then I'm gonna drag you on stage to kiss you when I want to of it all. And I don't know I. I guess. Did you ever stop believing in him as her end game? Like, or did you read him as toxic? Or did you feel like he was justified in his actions because he was trying to protect her from his and what would inevitably be a tragic end?

[B]

I had some fleeting moments where I was like, oh, he's kind of annoying and toxic, but. But I think it was very balanced with her own toxicity, you know? Poor Brian. My God. I think that in that way it sort of worked. Like, they're both clearly screwed up, but it never made me dislike him at all.

[A]

Yeah, I think I kind of got to a place where I was like, I think he's a little toxic, and I don't think I care.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

But we had a very interesting listener voicemail that came in at the 11th hour last night. Maybe this was the universe's way of why we had to postpone recording so that this could come in, because this one, like, got me out of bed. Like, I listened to it in bed and then I was like, I gotta go get my laptop because I, like, gotta write some notes. Let's listen to this listener question.

[D]

Hi, Becca and Olivia, it's Julie here. I just wanted to ping something about into the Blue that I haven't really heard discussed yet. And I think it might be the reason why I was a little more lukewarm on it than a lot of other people. I'm going to call it the trope of a woman being so down bad for an emotionally unavailable ex that she loses all of her damn sense.

[B]

And I think it.

[D]

I clocked it in this book because I had been encountering it sort of again and again in a lot of

[B]

the Big Buzzy books in the last couple years.

[D]

I would say it's present in Deep Cuts. It's present in Broken country, two books that I both really liked. You could make a case that it's almost a little bit in Heart, the Lover and Slanting towards the Sea. But I think that handles it a little bit differently. There's a little more nuance there. But anyways, in those first three titles I mentioned, it's definitely a recurring case of a woman who is so overwhelmed by her feelings of romantic love that

[B]

she treats a lot of other people

[D]

in her orbit really, really terribly and sort of almost seems to lose her agency in. In Service of those feelings. Again, you saw it here with the way that she treats her very guiltless fiance. So I'm sorry, this is a super long voice memo, but I haven't heard this discussed. And I would love to hear the

[B]

two of y' all talk about it. Okay, Bye.

[A]

I mean, my first reaction. I mean, it's such a valid question. It's such a thoughtful question. I'm so grateful that you sent it in. My first thought is, we are in an era of yearning in romance. Like, that's what everyone wants. That's the buzzword right now. And I think you can't yearn without being down bad for someone in a way that makes you a little bit pathetic.

[B]

I don't know, like, if you agree

[A]

with me, if you have your full dignity, I don't know that you're yearning hard enough for the romance audience. Okay, tell. Tell me.

[B]

I mean, I see your point. I just think that yearning, when I hear that word, it is something so, so, so deep that you can live entire lives on top of that feeling. And you can function. You know? You can function. You don't have to lose your mind when that person shows up necessarily, or make horrible decisions or be toxic because it's.

[A]

Oh, I mean, that is a whole separate conversation. Is AJ Making good decisions? Absolutely not. But in some ways, I don't know that that's because of him. Like, does she have an alcohol abuse problem because of him? Like, it seems like in some ways, some of her bad choices or in some of, like, her career inability to, like, get what she wants and get ahead feel to me unrelated to him.

[B]

Well, let's talk about the alcohol thing, because I had an interesting experience with that where I kind of was. I found myself. This sounds weird, but I found myself craving her to have her own life. Shit. And she did. In some ways, that was totally separate from him. But when it kept coming up and it was really subtle at first, I was like, huh. I don't know if this feels quite right to me. I don't know. What did you think about it?

[A]

I was really meh on that plot line as well. Like, I either wanted way more or way less. It didn't feel like it totally paid off for me. And then once she, like, broke up with Brian, she was like, it, and it's done, right? And, like, I never had to seek formal treatment or, like, it just. It felt. I don't know. I'm sure it is accurate to some people's experiences, but I. I just felt.

[B]

And then it's like, instead, she takes up running and, oh, convenient. He runs five miles a day, and then they run together. Like, I don't know. I just kind of felt like, okay, I don't. Yeah, I Don't know.

[A]

I will say back to this listener's point that they brought up. I really liked that AJ had a serious relationship and that she wasn't just sitting around waiting for Noah. Even if that relationship was somewhat disposable for the plot of it all, to get these two people together. I think it really bugs me sometimes there is a trope in romance of, like, a second chance romance where the man has gone out and, like, sowed all kinds of wild oats, and it's kind of been a bit of a rake. And then the woman has kind of sat around as this, like, virginal princess, like, waiting for him to return. And, like, sometimes you're just like, is he great in bed or is he the only person you've slept with? You know? And so I like that she had a relationship and that she had a very serious relationship. And I don't think it's unrealistic that sometimes people sleep day with the wrong person for the wrong reasons, because look at Libby, her sister of. I felt like it was too late to start over. I do think that there's a reality to that, even if it's probably less than Brian deserves, if he was the main character of his own novel.

[B]

I agree with you there.

[A]

So I didn't dislike that. And I think sometimes in romances, alternate significant others do tend to be just set dressing for the soulmate's plot line. But I kept coming back to the question, what was like, really nagging at me was like, do you think AJ lost her agency? Because, okay, in part two with the show, he's clearly undermining her agency by making her Alara. I'm not sure if I'm positive how to pronounce that, but to me, losing her agency would be putting his needs above her own, which she isn't, because she's still really wants a writing credit and to move out of Unscripted. So he's definitely messing with her agency, but it's like, to the end, that suits her. Wants, needs, journey. And then in part three, outside of the SNL kiss, which I do think she loses her agency. He's inserting himself with cons so she could make more money. But outside of that, like, I did feel like she was agentic in the third part. Like, she was making bad choices, but they were her bad choices to make. With regards to, like, how she was mistreating Brian, like, making this plan to go to the cons to help raise money for her family. I did feel like she was agentic. I felt like In Part four, she did lose her agency, but I felt like she gave it up willingly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that right or wrong? Not for me to say, but like, she was like, I want to be with him. He theoretically has limited good years. And like, was she living in this house that he owned and like, living, you know, not working to the goals that she had previously stated of. Like wanting to write a screenplay that summer? Like, yes, absolutely. But like, it felt like she went into that eyes wide open. I'm not trying to pick apart this person's argument whatsoever. I, like, I would love to hear either from you or from other listeners. Like, if they do feel like she lost agency. This. Like, I kept grappling with this last night, trying to figure out how I felt.

[B]

It's a tough question. I mean, I think for me, the more I think about it, it's a little hard to gauge because I do kind of feel like I don't know her as a character outside of him at all. But I don't really know. When you have this story, I don't know if that's even possible because the whole point is that you know them in relation to one another. Yeah, I'm not sure, but I think it's a fair question. I can't wait to hear people's thoughts.

[A]

Me too. I'm excited for the follow up conversations on this one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Cruising right into part four, our lovers finally get together. I said this already. I found the scene after Eudora's funeral to be absolutely electric, where he's realizing that she wasn't wearing her engagement ring. The confession that he wasn't really with the other actress. I also loved that even as they were finally about to drop their walls and get together, they were really, really hard on each other. And that's a theme throughout too. Like them telling each other some hard truths of like the kind of recurring line about like, your game is X. She was like, you push people away so that you don't have to deal with your feelings. I think was maybe something she said at one point. And I really loved that. It was not just a purely sweet moment, but after so much back and forth, did you want them to get together? Like, did you see them as meant to be?

[B]

Yes. I thought this scene was great and I. I agree. I kept expecting them to go straight to sex. But the fact that they were really kind of having this very, very honest, like almost harsh conversation with each other, I think made it better. This is going backwards a little bit, but I do have to say this. It's amazing to me that they came back from her saying, you deserve to be sick. I just would like to throw that out there because that was something to me. I was like, oh, I don't. I don't know. I don't know if you can come back for that. But. But they did, and it's fine.

[A]

The romance reader in me knew that you can.

[B]

True.

[A]

Or I'm willing to let it slide.

[B]

But it just. It felt like, oh, wow, that's an ugly thing to say to another human being. Anyway, I had the thought, but, yeah, tell me more about your thoughts about that scene.

[A]

I just loved it. It was so hot. But it was also like he came in his pants at one point, which usually I'm like, oh, geez. The whole scene I was just like, this is so electric is the word I keep coming back to.

[B]

Yeah, it was the beginning of their. I don't even know what it was. Like a sexathon.

[A]

Yeah, sexathon. And I feel like they had so much back and forth. And there's been other books that I've read. I can't think of examples at the time, but I probably wouldn't want to tell you anyway of like, there's so much back and forth and you're like, I don't even care if you get together at this point point. But I was rooting for them so hard. Like, I truly believed that this couple was meant to be.

[B]

Yeah, I understand why.

[A]

Okay, so as I said, basically all month as we were teasing this book and at the top of this episode, what really made the book for me was the ending with the play. And one thing I was shocked to realize was that it's only like 30 pages of the book. It gets such a short section. And in it, like the meta ness that you talk to of, they basically play out all the different endings for their love story. And the book could have like, did you like this as much as I did?

[B]

Unfortunately, I did not.

[A]

No.

[B]

In theory, I should love it. I think again, it had that sort of really disorienting quality to me where sometimes they were AJ And Noah on the page written. Sometimes they were these. I forget the other characters names. Or was it letters or something that.

[A]

Letters, letters, fire and water. It's like F and W. Yes.

[B]

It was going back and forth and I was just like, what is happening? But I kept reading because you were like, this is the best ending I've ever read. And like, the premise of it was so good. And I was like, okay, in this last scene, they're gonna have some moment and it's gonna end right there. And I really wanted that so badly. But then it kept going. I don't know, it just something about it felt confusing to me.

[A]

To me, it was so much more satisfying than them having this conversation of like, well, I could get sick and I could die tomorrow or, you know, you would be such a good dad. Like, seeing it play out in a play was so satisfying to me. And also how that they couldn't stop in the middle and say, I don't want to do this, that nobody could store them off. And also, like, the emotional vulnerability, like the, obviously it's fake, but like the idea of them having this very real, incredibly high stakes argument basically in front of an audience every night, I was like, shocked by that. But in a way that I totally believe that that could happen. For who I understand these characters, and especially Noah, to be like, he was committed to acting above all else.

[B]

The scene where he kind of plays out, like, actually getting sick and he like urinates on himself, I think was. It was really moving to me. And I kept having that experience where I'm moving, and it was very disturbing in a lot of ways. But I kept having this experience where I'd be like, really in it for a sentence, a scene or whatever, and then I would be very confused by the next one. And I kept having the feeling again and again and again throughout this book. But especially in this part where I was like, I need the adaptation of this.

[A]

Well, I was just gonna say I heard in interviews that this is in talks for an adaptation or there is one happening. I'm not positive what, what's going on. But this book to me feels incredibly difficult to adapt because of the black room stuff and because of how much of that is inside or in one or both of their heads. And also this play, it's fully improv. There's no props. She's playing different characters. And like, I can't quite see how it would play out. Like, it would. I would be so interested, but it's going to take some real genius to figure out how to translate this book, this very interior book to a visual medium.

[B]

To me, oh, I could see this as an incredible series. I think one thing this book did for me that I loved is like, it really reminded me of the beauty and the power of acting. And. And I think because of that, I was thinking like, oh, if I could see people visually do this. And there was some way to interestingly create this black box effect or to illustrate it and the show within the book and the. The play. I just. I think it could be really powerful if you got the right people on it. And I think it could work. I don't know. I just immediately I was like, yes, this could be something really incredible.

[A]

You know, I'll be first in line as a huge part of this book, but I have some strong fears.

[B]

Well, you did with Project Hail Mary as well.

[A]

That's true. That's absolutely true. And I was so wrong. I was so wrong.

[B]

Check back in. We'll check back in another five years.

[A]

In the end, he leaves at the end of the last performance. I was utterly shocked that that happened because that is not romance book behavior. Like, you know, I thought he would surely capitulate or like break down on stage or something, but he actually walks out and then he comes back and they have their happily for now, I guess. And then we get a quick flash forward. We know his symptoms are worsening, but we don't see the worst of it. And we don't ever get confirmation that he dies. And this disease has like a 0% survival rate. So I think we must assume he does. How did you feel about where the book ended?

[B]

Too neat. It was. I just. I had a deep desire for it to end on that stage in the last version and never know and never. Well, you know me. But I mean, because I think.

[A]

I hope all the romance readers are screaming along with me.

[B]

I think it would have been so beautiful because you see all these different versions and you have this last one and you have to kind of interpret what it means and their emotions within it. And is it them or is it not, or is it both? And instead it was like, I get why they did it. I get why they did it.

[A]

And that was the genre convention of it. Like, the genre convention.

[B]

I know.

[A]

If you called that a romance and it just ended on that vague note, oh, my God.

[B]

Well, it could have been like Hamnet at the end of Hamnet, where it's like there's layers of things happen. I mean, this isn't Hamnet. I understand it's a totally different thing in genre. But like, in a lot of ways, the last scene of the movie is like, there is this stage performance and there's someone watching it who's having one experience of it, but the audience is having another. And there's something that I don't know that encapsulates, like life and art all in one in that. But I get why you had to wrap it up that way. Did you find the ending satisfying?

[A]

Then I found it so satisfying. I found him coming back while she is on that stage talking to her sister. I found it so powerful. We didn't even get to talk about it. But I found the relationships within her family to be so compelling of both the relationship with her twin, her brother's accident, and kind of what that means for her family. Like, I loved getting to see the evolution of this family from when she was in high school and like, then as adults. I loved the ending and I loved that it ended in a happier place with a full understanding that it will be a tragic end.

[B]

Yeah. I also really like the side characters. And I have to give a shout out to Emily, who I think had the best line of the book where she said, I like him the same amount that you do about Brian.

[A]

Oh, that was so perfect.

[B]

I was like, oh, Emma Brody, excellent work. Incredible five stars.

[A]

Not lying.

[B]

Perfect the characterization.

[A]

I also loved the random ass characterization of the brother that gets in the accident. His wife's parents, his in laws, I guess, who are like, yeah, like this hippie couple I like. There was so much about, like, the cast that I loved.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Okay, there is one more voicemail that I want to play for you that I asked Emma about something because we both talked about how this book was on the longer side, but in earlier drafts it was even longer. And I loved the conversation we had in the little one episode so much hearing what changed through drafts. So I really wanted to ask Emma the same question, and she was kind enough to answer it for us.

[C]

Okay, question two. I remember you telling me an early draft of this book was very long. How did it change from that version to the publisher version? So the book initially came out at 150,000 words, and that was my very first draft. I didn't show it to anybody. I think it was a draft for me where I needed to meet the characters, understand them. It took me a long time to understand AJ So once I had that, I went back and I did a second draft. That version came out at 182,000 words, which for context, a normal novel is about 90,000 words. So we have twice the length of a normal novel. And I was sort of of two minds about this. Like, on the one hand, romantasy is a big trend right now, and those books regularly weigh in at like 200, 250,000 words. So I was like, well, compared to a Romantasy, she's like practically lean. But also, this is a contemporary love story. So those books really are like 90 to 100,000 words. And I knew that I was kind of pushing on that. And the process from there was really kind of teaming up with different people who each brought a piece of the puzzle into play that helped streamline the book into its current version, which is its sleeket self. We call it the Remix. So my agent, Alyssa came in and she cut out about 30,000 words, most of which were in the introduction, like in the first section of the book, Acting Lessons, which I just ended up kind of completely rewriting. So that was initially 50,000 words. It was a lot of acting exercises. I really wanted to avoid the feeling that their connection was like something that had just popped out of nowhere. So it really built their psychic abilities, like from the ground up, like painstakingly so. And looking back on it two years later, I can definitely see how some of that was tiring. But it was good to have an outside eye on that for sure. And then once my editor Natalie came on board, we worked and got about 17,000 words out. And that was. We cut a few characters. AJ Initially had another sister, Kelly rip and there were more cast members in into the Blue with more active roles. So we streamlined a few different people. Noah's dad initially made an appearance in Part four, and we cut that out because it wasn't really adding. It was just kind of slowing the pace. And then on a line by line level, we did a lot of streamlining and revising and yeah, any place we could get savings on word count, we went for it. So it was a huge team effort. And this is why the editorial process is so important, because at a certain point you just become snow blind. And obviously if it's your creation, you love it. So I had a really great team on this one. And yeah, hopefully you guys all liked the final product.

[B]

182,000 more.

[A]

This sick part of me, and especially knowing that so many of those words came out of the first. The first section. Like I almost could have. I, as a lover of into the Blue, I'm like, you could have made it a four part series and like, of novels and I would have read it. I don't think that really exists in the romance genre outside of like romantasy dystopian.

[B]

What about the Jessa Hastings book?

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

Well, I mean, I kept thinking, if I go through the blood, sweat and tears of writing 182,000 words, I'm keeping them. The fact that she was like, so we cut 17,000. Then we kept. Then we kept. I would be like, do you know what I went through for this, but

[A]

that's the writing process.

[B]

Yeah, I imagine. Like she said, I'm sure it was a lot of teamwork, but I think even though it was a little long for me personally, like, I think for the people that love it, it's like they would only want more.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I will say I didn't need another sibling. So her saying that there was originally another sibling and then that was the right move. There were more characters in the show. I was like, oh, yeah, these were good. But I would like some of those redacted words from the first part.

[B]

I mean, bonus content. Who knows?

[A]

I know. I know.

[B]

TV show. Who knows?

[A]

I do think that she put out a bonus scene. I saw this somewhere. I think she did put out a bonus scene from Noah's point of view. Or maybe it's like there's a target version that has it or something. I don't remember specifically. And I'm horrifically sorry if I'm making this up and disappointing anyone.

[B]

Very fun.

[A]

Okay, let's get out of this book conversation and into not the blue, but the end matter.

[B]

Into the end matter.

[A]

Into the end matter.

[B]

What are you obsessed with?

[A]

Oh, I'm obsessed with this very expensive pair of sandals that I got. So the brand is Margaux, and they're the Palermo sandals, and it's kind of like a thong sandal that then wraps around your ankle. And I just find these so chic. They're also very comfortable. I have them in black, but I like them so much, to the point where I'm considering getting them in chartreuse, like a yellowy green color.

[B]

Oh, cute.

[A]

I like these so much. I realized at the end of last season that I was like, what have happened to all my sandals? Did I get rid of all of them? Like, it feels like I need to, like, get all new sandals this year.

[B]

Well, you found your. You found your perfect option.

[A]

I have. I really, really like these, and I find them very comfortable. Maybe not like we're going on a marathon day walking around a European city comfortable, but, like, I'm walking to the subway. I'm going to dinner. I'm, like, gonna take, like, 5,000 steps. Like, they're totally comfortable for that. I will just say with everything in this brand, including this pair of sandals, I take a wide, and I never take a wide otherwise. So they just. They run very narrow, but are otherwise true to size.

[B]

Good psa.

[A]

Yeah. I had to learn that the hard way. What about you? What are you obsessed with?

[B]

I am obsessed with the Single from the new Gracie Abrams album, which isn't out yet, but the single is, and it's called Hit the Wall. I don't know if I've heard this. Oh, my gosh, it is so catchy. I listened to it the first time and I was like, oh, okay, nice. Then I went on a walk and I listened to it again, and then I listened to it again and then I put it on repeat for the entire hour Long walk.

[A]

Oh, I love that. I love when a song just like

[B]

worms in again and I couldn't get enough of it. It's just. It's so good. It made me really excited for her new album. I'm kind of only like a casual fan of her, but it's very, very good.

[A]

I too, am a more casual fan, and I am going to run some errands after we record this, so I might put this on.

[B]

Do it. Well, what have you read?

[A]

Okay, so on my great weekend of reading, I already said that I read Our Perfect Storm by Carly Fortune. And this is a best friends to lovers romance. It is about a jilted bride whose husband, well, almost husband to be, leaves her the night before their wedding, and she ends up going on what was supposed to be her honeymoon to Tofino, which is on the west coast of Canada and is apparently very, like, beachy and rainforesty and was not a place I'd ever heard of. But I looked up a lot of pictures as I was reading this, and it looks stunning. And so she goes on what was supposed to be her honeymoon with her male best friend, who they've kind of drifted apart a little bit. I loved this. Carly Fortune is so good at what she does. She writes such a setting, heavy book. They're so swoony. Oh, my God. George is absolutely a man written by a woman. And I have no problem with that. Like, this was everything I wanted it to be. It was so, so good. I devoured this in, like, less than 24 hours.

[B]

Everyone seems to love this.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, it was so good. I don't know if it inches out last year's One Golden Summer for me, but which is my top? I don't know. They're both so good. A woman cannot choose. I am that woman.

[B]

That's a problem to have.

[A]

Okay, then. Next I read Habits of the Sea by Shea Ernshaw, which is out July 7th. Olivia, you read this, I believe, earlier this year. I have not stopped thinking of your description of it since you talked about it on the podcast.

[B]

It's a good Pitch.

[A]

Yeah. So this is the book of this girl disappears for one night when she's a child, and she goes to this, like, island off the coast of Canada. We're very Canada centric, this episode. And when she comes back, a week has passed and nobody believes her about what she says happened. And then as an adult, she goes back to the same island and there is a man living there who has not aged. And this book reminded me a lot of the Time Traveler's Wife, which is one of my favorite books of all time. And there's something like. It is fantasy, obviously, because there's a man who doesn't age, but it felt like a very light kind of fantasy that was, like, really dreamlike. And, oh, it was so beautifully written. And I loved this book and it surprised me in such a big way. Oh, I thought I had this book. I had this book figured out. I was like, I know exactly what's gonna happen. I'm here for the ride. I love this book and it surprised the socks off of me.

[B]

Excellent cover. I keep saying that, but I just love the COVID of this book so much. The COVID is good.

[A]

I don't know that I think that is exactly the right cover for this book.

[B]

I would agree with you on that, actually.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I think I was expecting something a little bit different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I. I think I would have liked the book a little bit more had it matched the COVID more.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I think you probably liked it more because it didn't match it as much.

[A]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. The COVID definitely says, somebody's gonna fall off this cliff.

[B]

Yeah. It has like a almost fairy tale quality to it, I think, which is sort of fun, like, bedtime story in a adult kind of way. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I really liked this. Okay. What about you? What did you read?

[B]

Okay, I read a few things. I finished Maine by J. Courtney Sullivan, which I have been reading for many, many weeks. I picked this up when I was last in Maine a couple months ago. And this is the story of a matriarch living on a beautiful house in Maine that her family has owned forever. And basically, three different women in this family who are all going through their own things and how their stories interconnect. This is the book I was talking about that has very long chapters.

[A]

Is this the book that is about a house or is that a different J. Courtney Sullivan book?

[B]

Yes and no. So the other book I read from her, which is her most recent book, is called the Cliffs, which is about an old Victorian house in Maine as well.

[A]

Okay. That's what I'm thinking of.

[B]

I preferred that book to this quite a bit. But when I bought this book, the woman at the store said she preferred this one, so I don't know. But I did like it. But the cliffs won out for me. Okay, then I read Catterskill Falls by Allegra Goodman. I have read Sam by Allegra Goodman and Isola. I loved both of them. And so when I saw this at Rough Draft, I got it because it's set in the Catskills, not too far from here.

[A]

And this is before Sam.

[B]

Yes, this came out in 1998.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Quite old. It was a National Book Award finalist, though. And the COVID is really gorgeous. But. And it has a lot of references to around where we live, so I found that really fun. I loved the descriptions of nature. It's about an Orthodox Jewish community who goes to this specific town in the Catskills every summer and all the different people in it and how I just little. It's kind of like a slice of life story in that exact setting and community. I found this a little bit slow, but the writing is beautiful. And if you find yourself in the Catskills, I think you would enjoy it. And then finally I read Lake Effect by Cynthia Dupree Sweeney, which I know Becca loved.

[A]

Loved.

[C]

This is.

[B]

Gosh, how do I describe this? This is about a blended family.

[A]

I would describe it. So it is about a blended family, but I would describe it more about an affair.

[B]

Yes, it is about an affair that leads to a blended family. I don't inherently dislike books about infidelity. In fact, there's many that are my favorite books. But there is something that just is not comfortable to read for a lot of reasons. I like this book. I found it very, very funny. The character work was great. There's a huge time jump in the middle, which was, I just found from a craft perspective, really interesting. But the last few pages of this book, when I tell you I have not cried so openly while reading something, it wrecked me, Becca. I was in bed, like, gasping for air. I did not expect it. I don't know why it hit me so hard, but there's this piece of dialogue that kind of sums up a lot of what the book is about. And like, I wouldn't say the whole book is like, my favorite book I've ever read, but that is, like, one of the most, I think, well done scenes I've read in a book. Yeah, I recommend this one.

[A]

It had, like, a hot start and then it kind of like. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, it's kind of hard. From the COVID You're like, I don't know what this is about.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And then you have the affair of it all, which it starts very much just about the infidelity. But it's one of those books where it is worth reading to get to that last scene and how beautiful it is, I think.

[A]

But I really enjoyed the ride. Like, it is a very gossipy novel. It plays with POV really interestingly.

[B]

Like I. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Okay, well, reveal to us, Olivia, what is our June book club pick?

[B]

Yes, our June book club pick is another romance, but very, very different. It's Almost Life by Kieran Millwood Hargrave, which follows this decade spanning romance and relationship and friendship between two women, Erika and Laure. And they meet in the 1970s in Paris. And the book kind of goes on, like I said, for decades. And it's so beautiful, in my opinion. And I can't wait to talk about so many things.

[A]

Well, this works really well for me because I was gonna read it anyway after hearing just how breathlessly you pitched it a couple of weeks ago. So I'm excited.

[B]

This book, you've got to get yourself a blanket, a field, a body of water, some ice cold beverage, the sun, open it and just let yourself float away.

[A]

Well, what's summer for if not that?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

All right. If you want to talk to us about anything in this episode, and I really hope you do, I would love to have more conversations about into the Blue and some of the questions we tackled in this conversation. Come join us in the Facebook group under Baton Paper Podcast. We also have the BFF group, also under Baton Paper Podcast. We are on Instagram at, you guessed it, Batonpaper podcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is beccafreeman substack.com and my book Back where We Started is coming out in October and I would love for you to consider pre ordering it.

[B]

And I'm liviamentor all the places.

[A]

See you next week.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Bye.