July 2025 Three Things

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: July 2025 Episode Summary – "Three Things"

Hosts:
Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter

Release Date:
July 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of Bad On Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter dive into their regular "Three Things Week," where each brings three items from different categories to discuss. The conversation seamlessly weaves through personal highs and lows, book discussions, movie critiques, and creative games, offering listeners a blend of insightful banter and literary passion.

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Three Things Week

Introduction to the Segment (00:18 - 00:50)
Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter kick off the episode by introducing the "Three Things Week" theme. Each host shares the categories they've chosen:

• Becca:

  • A game
  • A fantasy question
  • A pop culture item

• Olivia:

  • A pop culture item
  • A writing question
  • A reading selection

Becca (00:28): "I brought a game, I brought a fantasy question, and I brought a pop culture one, which I would not be surprised if we overlap on."

Olivia (00:39): "I think we probably do. I think I know what it is."

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Sharing Highs and Lows

Olivia's Highs and Lows (01:11 - 09:31)
Olivia shares her high of enjoying a productive bookish week despite the extreme heat in the Northeast. She highlights her favorite recent read, Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance by Alison Espach, praising its emotional depth and resonance with The Wedding People.

Olivia (01:11): "My high is that I had such a nice reading week, a nice bookish week."

Her low involves a stressful incident where heavy rain caused water to leak into her office, damaging her printer—a critical tool for her writing process.

Olivia (08:21): "What's your low? You were there for my low."

Becca's Highs and Lows (03:33 - 08:39)
Becca shares her excitement about impulsively booking a weekend trip to Boston to attend a friend's engagement drinks, providing a refreshing break from the ongoing rainy weather.

Becca (03:33): "My high is that I impulsively booked a flight to go to Boston this weekend."

Her low centers around the unexpected name leak of Materialists during a meeting, causing confusion and minor distress.

Becca (04:39): "What type of things do you want to talk about? Including materialists in the Facebook group."

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Movie Discussion: Materialists

Initial Impressions and Ratings (12:20 - 27:05)
The hosts delve into their thoughts on the movie Materialists. Both express mixed feelings, rating it around the midpoint of their scales—Olivia gives it a 4.65, while Becca rates it a 5.

Olivia (13:05): "If you were giving this movie a score, on a scale of 1 to 10, what are you giving it? 4.65."

Becca (13:11): "I think I'd give it a five."

They discuss specific aspects they found lacking, such as character development, plot coherence, and the film's title. Becca criticizes Dakota Johnson's portrayal as too cold, while Olivia feels the romance subplot was muddled and unsatisfying.

Becca (16:33): "Dakota Johnson is not my favorite actress in general... it just didn't feel like it delivered on the fun and game section."

Olivia (16:54): "She was like, the only person's name in the movie. I thought they made her seem very sad and that just didn't feel fair to me."

Highlights and Lows (17:28 - 27:05)
They identify moments they appreciated, such as certain character interactions and cinematography, yet lament the film's inconsistent tone and unresolved plot elements.

Becca (19:38): "I really thought Pedro was great in this role... but it was so ridiculous."

Olivia (22:05): "The only person's name in the movie... it missed on so many levels for me."

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Game Segment: Guess the Hallmark Plot

Playing the Game (33:18 - 38:29)
Becca introduces a fun game inspired by a recent event where they guess the plot of Hallmark-style movie titles. Olivia participates, bringing humor and creative guesses:

1. Jingle Bell Run

   • Olivia's Guess (33:30): A small-town charity Christmas run paired with a budding romance.
   • Actual Plot: A bookworm and a retired hockey star compete in a holiday race across America, developing a romantic connection along the way.

2. Return to Office

   • Olivia's Guess (35:06): Two coworkers fall in love after being forced to return to the office post-COVID.
   • Actual Plot: Two coworkers, known only as Ms. Monday and Mr. Tuesday, navigate an office romance upon returning to a hybrid work schedule.

3. For Love and Honey

   • Olivia's Guess (36:12): Generational beekeepers face challenges while finding love.
   • Actual Plot: A beekeeper discovers an ancient fresco, leading her on a quest across Malta with a visiting archaeologist, intertwined with a romantic storyline.

Becca (34:25): "You were quite wrong. This one is pretty deceiving."

Olivia (37:01): "It's about a Greatest Race type challenge."

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Writing Process and Craft

Discussion on Writing Techniques (40:50 - 49:14)
Olivia and Becca share insights into their writing processes, particularly focusing on revisions and editing techniques for their second novels compared to their first.

Olivia (40:50): "I have a writing question... about process and craft... editing techniques, habits."

Becca (41:26): Describes her approach of setting writing goals, drafting without a full outline, and evolving her editing process with the help of an agent and editor.

Becca (45:36): "So, like, I just was stuck writing."

Olivia articulates her challenges with editing, emphasizing the difficulty of cutting content and the benefits of using rough outlines to navigate complex narratives.

Olivia (47:56): "I'm using a little bit of an outline... multiple points of view and multiple timelines."

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Obsession Corner

Hosts Share Their Obsessions (50:20 - 59:56)
Becca and Olivia discuss their current obsessions, ranging from fashion to household items.

Olivia's Obsession (59:25 - 61:00):
Imagines a dream summer dinner party set in a Tuscan villa, complete with Italian food, a late-night DJ (humorously suggested to be Pedro Pascal), and luxurious ambiance.

Becca's Obsession (59:47 - 61:06):
Fascinated by Old Navy tank tops that resemble Doan's style, praising their affordability and high-end appearance.

Becca (60:37): "I have both shown it on Instagram, linked it on my newsletter."

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Book Discussions and Recommendations

Olivia's Recent Reads (61:15 - 65:44)
Olivia shares her latest book picks, providing brief synopses and personal reflections:

1. The Bombshell by Darrow Farr

   • A gripping tale of a teenage daughter kidnapped by Corsican nationalists, blending political intrigue with personal drama.

2. Fun for the Whole Family by Jennifer E. Smith

   • A family drama exploring sibling estrangement and reconciliation against the backdrop of a mysterious inheritance.

3. Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance by Alison Espach

   • A heartfelt narrative from the perspective of a younger sister dealing with the aftermath of her sibling's tragic death.

4. It's a Love Story by Annabelle Monahan

   • A charming exploration of former childhood stars navigating love and personal growth.

5. Dear Writer by Maggie Smith

   • A nonfiction guide offering writing advice from the poet Maggie Smith, focusing on both poetic craft and creative living.

Olivia (61:15): "The Bombshell... she starts to rather see their point."

Olivia (64:42): "It's a beautiful book."

Becca's Recent Reads (65:46 - 70:39)
Becca highlights two books, emphasizing their appeal and genre:

1. These Summer Storms by Sarah Maclean

   • A contemporary drama about four estranged siblings reuniting at their childhood summer home under unique inheritance conditions, blending family dynamics with romantic subplots.

2. Fun for the Whole Family by Jennifer E. Smith

   • A lighter, more fun family narrative contrasting with her first pick, focusing on sibling dynamics and secrets unveiled during a family gathering.

Becca (67:04): "It's like a succession meets X book."

Becca (69:05): "It's a soapy beach read but you're not a romance person."

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Book Club Announcement

Upcoming Book Club Selection (71:08 - 72:01)
Becca announces that July's book club pick is Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid, set against the backdrop of the 1980s space program. The selection was listener-driven, promising an epic romance reminiscent of Titanic.

Becca (71:03): "Our listeners voted in the Facebook group."

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Closing Remarks

Engagement and Community (72:01 - End)
The hosts encourage listeners to join their communities on Facebook and Instagram to discuss books, movies, and more. They wrap up the episode with warm farewells, reminding listeners of their social media handles and newsletter links.

Olivia (72:25): "We're on Instagram under Bad On Paper Podcast."

Becca (72:41): "See you next week."

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Notable Quotes

• Olivia (01:11): "My high is that I had such a nice reading week, a nice bookish week."

• Becca (03:33): "My high is that I impulsively booked a flight to go to Boston this weekend."

• Olivia (13:05): "If you were giving this movie a score, on a scale of 1 to 10, what are you giving it? 4.65."

• Becca (13:11): "I think I'd give it a five."

• Becca (19:38): "I really thought Pedro was great in this role... but it was so ridiculous."

• Olivia (47:56): "I'm using a little bit of an outline... multiple points of view and multiple timelines."

• Olivia (61:15): "I liked it so much, I couldn't put it down."

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Conclusion

Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter provide a rich and engaging episode filled with personal anecdotes, thoughtful book and movie critiques, and interactive segments that highlight their dynamic chemistry. Listeners gain insight into their creative processes, personal interests, and literary passions, making this episode a must-listen for avid readers and podcast enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Badon Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia, Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And it's three things week.

[Olivia Mentor]

What type of things have you brought today? What are the genres?

[Becca Freeman]

I brought a game, I brought a fantasy question, and I brought a pop culture one, which I would not be surprised if we overlap on.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think we probably do. I think I know what it is. I too brought a pop culture one, which is probably the same thing. I brought a writing question and a reading question.

[Becca Freeman]

Ooh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ooh.

[Becca Freeman]

Fun.

[Olivia Mentor]

I. Yeah, it's. I'm excited.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, before we get into that, this episode is brought to you by a new book called Sunny side Up by Katie Storino. We'll tell you more about it later in the episode, but it's available right now wherever books are sold. Okay, Olivia, before we get to all the fun things we packed in the picnic basket today, tell me your high.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that I had such a nice reading week, a nice bookish week. We were just talking that it has been brutally hot in the northeast all week. Just I think that feels like tough. Temperature was 110 multiple days in a row. Neither of us have central air conditioning, so I've been getting in bed really early with my beloved, strongest soldier of a window unit and reading a lot and it's been so nice. And also I've been going to the library to work because it's very cold there. I, at home finished a five star read. One of my favorite books. I read notes on your sudden disappearance by Alison Espach, who wrote the Wedding. I don't know if you've read this one actually, Becca. Have you?

[Becca Freeman]

I haven't, no. I discovered her with the Wedding People.

[Olivia Mentor]

Same. And I loved this one just as much, if not more than the Wedding People. It was funny, heartfelt, moving. Just the same vibe as the Wedding People in so many ways, but totally different. I'll talk more about it in books, but like the joy of a five star reading. Just so good.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'm excited to hear more about this because I think that I maybe have misconceptions about it.

[Olivia Mentor]

You might. It was way different than I was expecting based on both the COVID and the title.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I'll share more, but I read that I read a few other really good books. I went to the library a couple times. Like I said, I checked out books, which I almost never do, but there are. Well, I think the thing is that obviously checking out books and requesting them for the library is a way to support authors that's super important. But for me, if I feel like I can afford to buy a book at an indie bookstore, I really want to do it to support the store and an author. So I just let myself go wild. And I buy a lot of books. A lot. But I was at the library. I really wanted to check the books out. I saw migrations by Charlotte McConaughey, and I was like, well, I'm here. It has a nice iceberg on the COVID and God knows I need some thoughts of coldness. And so I checked them out, and I felt like I was stealing them. It was just. It'd been a long time since I checked out a book. I usually just go and write or look at books and chill. But, yeah, a nice bookish week.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, good.

[Olivia Mentor]

What's your high?

[Becca Freeman]

My high is that I impulsively booked a flight to go to Boston this weekend. I am still on my book break until. Well, I think actually when this episode goes live. I think I'm supposed to get feedback on July 2, and I was like, I'd like to go somewhere. Especially this week. I feel a little trapped in my house with the heat. It's too hot to go outside. So, yeah, I haven't been to Boston since December. One of my good friends just got engaged, and they're doing, like, a little engagements, drinks. And I was like, I'll come.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I was gonna ask you why you were going. It seemed sudden, but I love that it's for a happy reason. Yeah. Spontaneous trips are a good idea, for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I'm excited. I think it's supposed to be rainy here, and it's been. You know, we've had so many rainy weekends in a row, and I was like, I don't have any plans. Like, I'm. I wouldn't really do much if I stuck around. Like, why not go to Boston?

[Olivia Mentor]

How many days are you going for?

[Becca Freeman]

I'm leaving Friday morning and coming back Monday morning.

[Olivia Mentor]

So you've got some full days in there. You've got some good time?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good. Are you staying with friends?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Great. Well, good. I hope you have fun.

[Becca Freeman]

Thanks.

[Olivia Mentor]

What's your low?

[Becca Freeman]

You were there for my low. I don't know that. You knew it was my low. I don't know that. We knew as we were living it that it was going to make it very odd. So one day last week, we were on a meeting with Courtney, who does all of our ad sales, and I'm sitting in my office, and all of a sudden, it's getting so dark. Like, it is getting 4pm Sunset in February, dark. Which I was like, huh, this is weird. And then it starts. End of days raining, just pouring, like, harder than I've not ever seen, but very, very hard. And as we're on this call, all of a sudden I hear that something is leaking. And I think that it was just raining too hard. That my window, which usually doesn't leak water, was coming in through it. And right underneath the window is my printer and two piles of books, which it's my giveaway pile. So no books that I want to read were harmed in this flood, but my printer was. And my printer won't turn on anymore. And you know how printer reliant I am with writing my own books. I like. I very much like to read things printed out. And so I needed to buy a new printer. I couldn't get it to boot back up.

[Olivia Mentor]

I hate everything having to do with printers, but especially the scenario of finding a printer that you trust and like and can operate efficiently, and then having that ruin. That's stressful. I'm sorry, I didn't realize. You were very calm about it in the moment. You were like, I think there is water pouring in.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, what can you do?

[Olivia Mentor]

Stop the water? But.

[Becca Freeman]

And it's.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, how could you have known?

[Becca Freeman]

It's in a stupid place. It's just on the ground, like, under this window because it's near the power outlet. So, like, it lives in a stupid place. It shouldn't be sitting on the ground. But anyway, I got the next generation of the same one I had, so hopefully it'll be pretty easy to operate. But I just remember having to set up the WI FI on it so that it prints wirelessly, being such a nightmare. So that's coming for me next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

I need to get a printer. I want to get, like, a laser one, a nice one. But I have never had an encounter with a printer that was anything less than traumatizing for me. So if you like yours.

[Becca Freeman]

I do. It's not. I don't know how nice of one you want. Like, it's not gonna print photos.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I just need one that can print in bulk. Like, I don't want to keep paying $80 to stable. No, my man used to.

[Becca Freeman]

Mine is tiny, but I've, you know, I've had it for two or three years, and I've printed out books many times with it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Is it laser or is it ink?

[Becca Freeman]

Ink.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. See, I also hate replacing the ink. This is my struggle.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I don't mind it. I buy it really cheap. On Amazon, I buy knockoff ink that's, like, not the printer brand, and it's so cheap.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you just have it on, like, auto.

[Becca Freeman]

No, it comes in bulk. Like, it probably comes with, like, 10 black cartridges. So I just. When I use the last one, I just buy more.

[Olivia Mentor]

So you're not heading to CVS in a panic at the last minute because you really need ink like the rest of us. Yeah. So smart. Smart. Okay. I've learned a lot here. I'm sorry you went through that, but thank you for sharing your. Your printer knowledge.

[Becca Freeman]

You're so welcome. I mean, it could have. It could have been worse. I mean, I don't actually have that many other electronics near Windows, but who knows?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, we had a similar incident with a rainstorm where it started pouring in through our window, and I thought, oh, that would have been horrible. One, if we weren't home, and two, if there was something valuable or important under it. So protect your valuables, everyone.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, tell me your low.

[Olivia Mentor]

My low is that I have started the process of asking for blurbs for my upcoming novel, Little One, and it's so exciting, but I. It's so vulnerable and terrifying, and I. I forgot what it feels like. Partially because I think I was so nervous with the last book that I really relied very heavily on my editor and my agent, which isn't unheard of for debuts. I didn't know as many people as well, but I just also think I was really scared just to be, like, read my work and to pitch myself. And anyway, I had, like, the most wonderful time putting such effort and thought into who I would ask and the letters I would write and how I felt about people's work. And so it was actually a very, like, cathartic experience because half of the letter writing was like, here's what I connect with in your work. You're writing so much. Here's why I admire you. And that felt so good. And then, you know, when people have so generously replied and said they would agree to. I am just filled with terror.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, so it's good terror. It's not that they haven't gotten back to you or that they've refused. It's that they've said yes, and now they're doing the thing that you want them to do. But it's scary.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's very scary. Yeah. Cause I'm just. I lay in bed at night and I just think about every sentence and every choice and, oh, I should have done that differently. And of course, you compare yourself to the people who you admire so much that you're asking for blurbs. And it's just this really, really vulnerable thing to, like, message some of your heroes. And I forgot how vulnerable it is. You feel really exposed.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

But as a gratitude exercise, as a, like, here's what I love about what you do. It was really, really wonderful. So there's the high and the low, but I'm just, I'm really nervous. But it's good, it's good forward progress, you know, it's good.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm excited for you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I'm also excited for all of us to get into this episode. So let's take a quick ad break and get to the things if you're on Bookstagram, you have probably seen Sunny side Up by Katie Storino and it's beautiful blue cover pretty much everywhere on your feed. Lately it's definitely been on mine. And if you've found yourself wondering if the hype is real, well, let me confirm it for you. It is. So this is by Megababe founder Katie Storino, who's been a guest on this podcast multiple times. And this is her first novel and I devoured it. Enjoyed every single second.

[Olivia Mentor]

The story follows recently divorced Sunny Green, a New York City PR executive who finds herself in a love trian with an investor in her new business and her mailman. Becca described this book as having major sex in the city vibes. And if there is actually one aspect that I think this book gets right that Sex and the City really did not, it is body positivity, body diversity and body neutrality. And I love this about Sunny sideup.

[Becca Freeman]

So if you follow Katie on social media, you are going to love how packed this book is with Easter eggs that pay homage to the author herself. For from Sunny's rescue pups to her substack newsletter to the Max Mara teddy coat that she's wearing, this book is so full of joy and laugh out loud funny moments. And it was exactly the book that I wanted and I'm so jealous because I read it in the winter, but this would be the perfect thing to pack in your beach bag. So the book has been featured in the New York Times, on the Today show and more. And the best news is that it's all already out right now. So you can grab a copy of Sunny side Up by Katie Storino wherever books are sold.

[Olivia Mentor]

Should we start with the thing that we suspect we may share?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. Is it materialists?

[Olivia Mentor]

It is.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. I was so excited when I saw that you and Jake saw it I didn't turn on the volume for your story so that we could have this conversation spoiler free.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh.

[Becca Freeman]

Meaning we'll spoil the Will spoil the movie. But I don't know your opinions on it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay. Well, honestly, I have so many more thoughts than I could have included in that Instagram story, so there's lot to dive into. But I don't know your thoughts on it either.

[Becca Freeman]

That's because I've had so much trouble putting my thoughts on this movie together. Okay. At the highest level, if you were giving this movie a score, on a scale of 1 to 10, what are you giving it?

[Olivia Mentor]

4.65.

[Becca Freeman]

Very specific.

[Olivia Mentor]

It felt right to me.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Hit me with yours.

[Becca Freeman]

I think I'd give it a five.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay. So close.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Not net good, but not net bad.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. I lean a little more bad.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. So you're more on, like, a score school. A school grading where, like a 4.65 is a failing grade.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think 5 is I had a nice time.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And then leaning towards four is like. And maybe I didn't have that nice of a time.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. That's the thing is I don't regret seeing it. I will never watch it again, but I don't regret the time. I'm not like, give me those two hours back.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. I kept trying to describe this to Jake, who hated this movie with a the passion of a thousand suns. I kept trying to tell him it wasn't that I was, like, having a bad time the whole time, which was weird, but also it wasn't fully connecting with me either in any way. And as I have thought about the movie more and more in the days since, it confuses me more and more as well. Do you feel like that?

[Becca Freeman]

No. I feel like my struggle has been that I wanted to like it so badly because I love sleep. Celine song. I loved Past Lives. I'm really rooting for Pedro Pascal's romance hero era. So I came in wanting to love this movie. I. I want the rom com genre to be reinvigorated and updated for 2025. So I, like. I wanted to like this so badly, but I think the reality is, is that it let me down. And I've, like, had trouble admitting that to myself. I felt like a few things. So Dakota Johnson is not my favorite actress in general. I do think this was the best performance I've seen her in, and I think it worked with the role, but there's just something very cold about her, which I think was the point. And it didn't feel rom comy in that way. Like, she had the silly job that was like the I'm not like other girls job where she's the matchmaker, but she's like a little above it all, you know, it's kind of like the equivalent of Kate Hunt Hudson and How to Lose a guy in 10 days where she wants to write about Tajikistan, but she's at this woman's magazine. So, like, she had the job. There was that opening scene putting on makeup that really reminded me of the Devil Wears Prada getting Ready intro sequence. Like, all the elements were there, but it just didn't come together for me. Like, Dakota Johnson was too cold. It had. And here I'm going to start going to spoilers, so if you don't want to hear it, fast forward. The sexual assault plot line, I think was really well handled and really realistic, but it was like, so antithetical to the rom com. And then when things got rom comy, like in the last third, where Chris, they go crash that wedding and they're having such a great time and Chris Evans gives this, like, very heartfelt speech. I was like, now this feels too light. And that it doesn't match anything. Like, it just didn't feel like it delivered on like the fun and game section maybe. Like it was like, we're having the resolution, but, like, I don't actually know that I truly want you to be together. Her and Chris Evans meeting.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

And I was like, the only thing you've really given me is that he knows that she's upset and Pedro Pascal doesn't. But I was like, I just. I don't know that I think that you belong together.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. It was very muddled to me, the character development, if you could even call it that, of Dakota Johnson's character. I've already forgotten her name in the movie.

[Becca Freeman]

No idea. Yeah, maybe.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have no idea. Which shows you a lot. It just felt really very hard to trace. First of all, I didn't understand why she decided she didn't want to be with Pedro. And there was no clear explanation of that. Then the finale where she ends up with Chris Evans just felt wrong as well. She's kind of a terrible person throughout the entire movie, to be honest. I'm curious if you have a high of the movie and a low of the movie.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

If you had to pick like the shining moment that you had hope and the moment you were like, I'm out.

[Becca Freeman]

I think the high of the movie was maybe when she was interviewing one of her clients, one of the men. And he was telling her all the unrealistic things that he wanted. Like, it was like, the guy who was like, I'm ready to date somebody closer to my age. And he's like, oh, no. I was thinking 28. Like, I thought that those moments were really funny. It reminded me a lot of When Harry Met Sally, where you're hearing, in that case, it's like, these couples that have been together forever. And in this case, it was like, what people want in the dating realm. And I thought that part was really interesting. Like, the portrayal of modern dating and people's expectations. Like, I thought that part was really interesting. And I really wanted to like her when she was sitting across from these people, and you could see that she's struggling with their expectations and she wants to find her female client, like, a great love. Like, I really liked that part. And I was like, yes, I have a lot of hope. I'm like, I'm here. And then I think my low was the reveal of the leg surgery with Pedro Pascal, which I did not expect to come back, and just felt ridiculous. Like, it felt. I don't know if that surgery exists. And I can see what it was trying to say about, like, how men who are great get undervalued because of this shallow reason of their height. And, like, getting taller might have increased his value in the dating market, and I get it, but it felt so out of left field, and it felt so ridiculous. And then also that she was dumping him at the same moment for reasons that were theoretically unconnected. I was just like, what is happening? And I thought he played it really well. Like, I really thought Pedro was great in this role. Like, I don't know that he was given. Like, he wasn't gonna win. So, you know, like, I wanted to see him get the girl, fight for the girl, whatever. And, like, it wasn't that role. He played that scene really well. But I was like, this is so ridiculous.

[Olivia Mentor]

He even says in that scene, like, I'm finding it really hard not to connect the leg surgery thing and you suddenly breaking up with me. And it's funny because I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be for laughs or not. But also, that's what I was thinking. Like, she's not making any clear sense about why she's breaking up with him in this moment. I think there was something really quite tender and moving about when he shrinks himself down. He's like, would you still love me? That could have been, I think so beautiful and sweet. And because the storyline and the writing, I think, was so messy around it. It just almost came off as awkward and like misplaced. But okay, my high, my high. I have a high and a low. And then I have sort of a mid thing that I want to talk about.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

The high is, I thought the scene where Dakota Johnson and Pedro Pascal are sitting in that really nice restaurant and they're having a discussion about what they both offer was very interesting and very sexy. I thought it was the best writing of the movie.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also thought that it was really one of the only moments where I thought Dakota Johnson's character had some sort of vulnerability. Like she's saying, you could do better than me.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

And then I thought Pedro was at his best in that scene. Like he was very assertive, but also direct. Like I understood after that dinner why they want to go have sex. Like, I got it. And then it sort of all fell apart for me, which was disappointing. My low. Cave people.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh my God, I forgot about the cave people. I totally forgot about the cave people.

[Olivia Mentor]

Big contender tied in my book, I would say, with her making Chris Evans sleep on a stoop all night.

[Becca Freeman]

Ostensibly that didn't bother me. That felt very rom com esque where it's like he's not coming in because he knows that it would make somebody else uncomfortable, but he wants to make sure they're safe. Like that felt very rom comy to me. Like, yes, she should have texted him, but like it was a big gesture. And I was like, yes, I like this.

[Olivia Mentor]

You're right. Probably not my low low. But okay. I do have one other one, which is the end scene before the cave people. Nonsense. She's on the phone with her boss.

[Becca Freeman]

Uh huh.

[Olivia Mentor]

She was a mid level employee making $80,000 before taxes, which in New York City is not that much. All of a sudden her boss is like, you're being promoted to the head of the branch. Name any salary you would like. Not usually how jobs work.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Then she's like, I don't know, I think I'm going to quit. Unclear. Why does she now hate her job? Unclear. We didn't really even make that connection at all as an audience. And then she says, I think I'm gonna marry a poor guy, but doesn't know he's about to propose with the Daisy, I would assume. I don't know, it was just. It missed on so many levels for me. But when I look at it through the lens of apparently Celine song was really trying to allude to Jane Austen.

[Becca Freeman]

Interesting.

[Olivia Mentor]

When I look at it through that lens of this concept of the modern marriage market. And some of the scenes where all of the matchmakers are sort of giggling in the background and the bridesmaids are really, like, following her into the room with the bride and she's giving this very strange pep talk. I see what she was trying to do. I don't think it landed. But I do appreciate the nod to that.

[Becca Freeman]

Did you know that this was in part inspired by Celine Song's own experience being a matchmaker?

[Olivia Mentor]

I did not know that.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes, she was a matchmaker for six months. I think in her earlier mid twenties. I cannot picture that on such a level. Like, she seems like a very serious and also, like, not personally aesthetically driven person. Like, she's very always very casual. She's not usually wearing makeup. And I just cannot imagine having to explain to this woman who just seems so intellectual and cool, like, telling them about the physical deal breakers that you have about somebody. Like, I'm like, oh, my God, I could know. Like, I would feel like the biggest idiot.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's very interesting. Speaking of aesthetics, though, this is a different sort of angle. I really did actually appreciate the way the movie was shot. The lighting, the colors. The cinematography, I thought was very beautiful, which is kind of a shame. But that one shot of Dakota Johnson lying in bed with her one eye, I think it's in the trailer as well. It was very striking. And also, give Pedro more roles. I like, this could have been so good.

[Becca Freeman]

I have to imagine that he's doing fine for lack of offers.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, he's doing fine. I should have said give him more romance. Like true romance.

[Becca Freeman]

No, but again, I think they're probably being offered to him. So it's like, are the roles not good enough? Does he not want to do them? Only selectively, but, like, he is the Internet's baby girl. Like, he must be being flooded with romance lead offers.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I hope so. And same with Chris Evans. It's so different from past lives. I kept trying to explain to Jake and my friends who I went with, none of whom had seen Past Lives. Like, you have to watch it because it is such a different takeaway. Yes, you have a totally different emotional experience. I actually didn't have any emotional experience in Materialists.

[Becca Freeman]

The other thing that keeps bothering me about this movie is it's just called Materialists. And everyone keeps calling it the Materialists. Like, I think it's a bad title. Like, I just think it's a bad title.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's a bad title. Particularly the point of it doesn't Come.

[Becca Freeman]

Through Materialists feels like the name of a fantasy series about magicians who have some type of elemental magic. It does not feel like the right name for this movie to me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. And if the point of the movie is money can't buy you love, there are a lot of, I think, pieces of art that make that point better. I really do think so.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, sorry I cut you off while you were going to make a point about the sexual assault, and I had a stupider point, so please continue.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I. I was just going to say that I thought there was some aspects of it that were handled well. What I really didn't appreciate about it was this woman. She did, you know, stand up for herself. But this idea that her only friend who she could call is Johnson. Yeah, like, let's do better by Sophie, please. The only person's name in the movie. I remember, I don't know, I thought they made her seem very sad and that just didn't feel fair to me. Like we don't know anything about who she is, what she does, her interests, her. Like, it just. She was. She was boiled down to this.

[Becca Freeman]

She was like, victim.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right. And I just. I didn't really understand how that event affected Dakota Johnson, you know, I do.

[Becca Freeman]

But I think that she centered herself in it to an extent that was off putting.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. I don't know. Actually, I was gonna say I would love to see this movie recast because I think it would be different, but I actually think it's just the writing. I think that's the problem, unfortunately. But I will see anything that Patriot Pascal is in. And I do have to ask you, at any point in the movie, did you think that man's not a potato?

[Becca Freeman]

No, he's a potato.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is unbelievable. But okay, he's a hot potato. The debate rages on. Oh, Millionaire Pedro Pascal. Just charming. Also, that apartment, some other sheets, silk sheets are not comfortable. I'm reminded of the scene in Boy Meets World where Corey just slides off the sheets and he jumps on the bed. Like, that did not look good. It's not. It's not cozy. It's not warm.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, where do we. Where do we go from here?

[Olivia Mentor]

I. Let's talk about books, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. You have a bookish one.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have a bookish one. It's a quick one. It's a fun one. Easy. I wanted to do a mid year check in. What's in the running for your top book of 2025 right now?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Olivia Mentor]

What are the contenders?

[Becca Freeman]

So funny that you brought it up because literally just before we jumped on here, I was working on a newsletter about my current top 10 of the year.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good timing.

[Becca Freeman]

Top 10 I can easily figure out. I think top one is more challenging. I would say maybe up there is one Golden Summer, the Carly Fortune book that just came out, which I really enjoyed. I would also put Broken country by Claire Leslie hall in the running there. I really loved that. And I loved it in spite of it not being my usual fare, which I think always means a little bit extra. And then I'm reading a book right now, which I wasn't going to talk about yet because I haven't finished it, but I will in the context of this. I am reading this book that I am loving so much. It's Heart the Lover by Lily King, which is her new book that comes out in October. I am devouring it. I'm only like, halfway through, and I think there's a timeline jump. So I'm not positive where I'm going to net out. But if it seems stays where it is, like, it could easily be my top book of the year. I'm loving it so much.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I've never read anything by her, but everyone says she is the best.

[Becca Freeman]

You of all people would love writers and lovers.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, I'm gonna. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go to the library.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my gosh. I feel like you especially would love it. It's set in the 90s. It's about a woman who's just lost her mother and is trying to make it as a writer. And I feel like the meditations on living a writerly life. And, you know, she's like a waitress. She's, like, trying to make it. Oh, my gosh. I feel like you would really appreciate it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. It's been on my radar and now it really is. Thank you.

[Becca Freeman]

What would you say is in the running for you?

[Olivia Mentor]

Wild Dark Shore, for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

That's in my top 10, but I don't think it's my top one.

[Olivia Mentor]

Top 10 is strong. Top 10 is strong. Let me consult my journal notes on your sudden disappearance is definitely high up there. High, high, high.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Very high. Which we love when a backlist book makes the favorites list. Let's see. Heartwood and Seawife.

[Becca Freeman]

I was like, if Heartwood isn't on this, I don't even know you anymore.

[Olivia Mentor]

Heartwood and Seawife, both very strong. I think those are probably my, like, top contenders. I also loved the Colony on my favorites list. I love Isola. I loved all the other Mothers hate me. Cleopatra and Frankenstein. Very strong. But yeah, I think when I. When my mind goes to like top, top, it's probably wild dark shore, probably. Or notes on your sudden disappearance. I. I don't know. I've read a lot of good books this year. I'm feeling good about my reading year. So now a lot of great books.

[Becca Freeman]

If you had to predict, do you think you're going to top those in the second half of the year?

[Olivia Mentor]

I've been thinking about this a lot actually, because I don't know if you have this experience, but whenever I read a book that I absolutely love so much, I always feel like that's the last one I'm ever gonna love. It feels really hard to imagine something being at the same level and then something always surprises me and I love that about books and reading. So I think I have to say hopeful and I have to say yes, I have hope that something will come close to it. I really don't see anything beating Wild darkshore, to be honest.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, maybe.

[Olivia Mentor]

I hope so.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel optimistic, but I don't think I've read my top book of the year yet.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. I think that's the attitude to have, though.

[Becca Freeman]

I also think I have a fairly strong recency bias, the thing that I most recently liked liking that the most. So I'll be very curious to see. I also think that a lot of my top 10 list is very heavily romance. And I think that a lot of times more literary books come out in the fall. And so I wonder if there will be something that really hits for me that I'm gonna read later this year.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I can't wait to find out. That's why I wanted to do this little check in. We can see how things evolve.

[Becca Freeman]

Love that for us. Do you want to play a game?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. You've been teasing this game for weeks, so I'm ready, but I have no idea what's in store for me.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, great. We're going to see how you do. So this is a game that I moderated an event for Annabelle Monahan at the Ripped Bodice in Brooklyn a few weeks ago. And we played this game and the audience seemed to really love it and I had so much fun with it, so I thought we could play. The inspiration for the game is that in Annabelle's book, Nora goes off script. The main character, Nora writes these like light, breezy, Hallmark esque movies for her job. And so I brought you the titles of some recent Hallmark movies. And I'm going to use the same ones that I gave Annabelle. I think there's maybe a few people who are listening who were at that event. So I thought it would be fun to see if you and her guess the same plot. And I want you to tell me what you think the plot is.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, I'm ready.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, great. So the first one we have is called Jingle Bell Run. What's the plot of the movie?

[Olivia Mentor]

Jingle Bell Run.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. Correct.

[Olivia Mentor]

Am I allowed to ask what network?

[Becca Freeman]

These are? All Hallmark.

[Olivia Mentor]

All Hallmark. Okay. Jingle Bell Run. I think we have a person living in a small town that's Christmas themed. Every year they host a charity run. They call it the Jingle Bell Run. It was originally run by this person's parent or parents, one of whom is now deceased. And they have to carry on the spirit of the Jingle Bell Run, even though they would rather be working at their high powered job in the city, which they're passionate about. But who will carry on the Jingle Bell Run if not them in their efforts to take over the run?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, where's the romance in this?

[Olivia Mentor]

They meet a person, a runner, perhaps a physical trainer. I don't know. And they fall in love. I don't know. That's all I've got.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

How wrong was I?

[Becca Freeman]

You were quite wrong. This one is pretty deceiving. It is not about a holiday 5k. It is about a Greatest Race type challenge.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, so like the Amazing Race.

[Becca Freeman]

The Amazing Race. Oh, that's what it. That's what I was trying to think.

[Olivia Mentor]

I went very. I went very literal.

[Becca Freeman]

So self described bookworm Avery is paired with a retired hockey star, Wes, to compete in a holiday race across America. The team struggles through themed challenges until romance runs its course.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I see. You know, that's better than mine. It is. I'll give it to them. I'll give it to them.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is fun.

[Becca Freeman]

What do you think the plot is of Return to Office?

[Olivia Mentor]

Covid.

[Becca Freeman]

Just two people get Covid.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I. My mind immediately went to. You're being forced to return to the office after Covid.

[Becca Freeman]

That's correct.

[Olivia Mentor]

You can't. Where's the home anymore? Return to Office. Okay, so maybe they had only known each other through, like Skype or Slack, and then they have to return to office and they finally meet each other and I don't know, they fall in love. I like. At a certain point with Hallmark, there's only one direction it's going, and it is towards a very chaste kiss in some sort of a barn or in this case, a cubicle.

[Becca Freeman]

So this one is about an office Makes the return to office on a hybrid schedule. So two co workers who share a desk are known to each other only as Ms. Monday and Mr. Tuesday. And they start sending friendly notes, sparking an office romance.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so I was, like, somewhat correct.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, you were directionally correct.

[Olivia Mentor]

We'll take that.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. The last one I have for you is for love and honey.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, Generational beekeepers, for sure. I'm gonna start there. Am I hot?

[Becca Freeman]

You're warm.

[Olivia Mentor]

Buzzing.

[Becca Freeman]

You're buzzing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Buzzing. Okay, Generational beekeepers. I'm gonna go. Similar to the running one. Her parents own a bee menagerie. What's a bee farm called? A honey farm.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. And it's very picturesque, and either she wants to take it over or she doesn't. Or there's a local man who is trying to sell the honey to Costco or something. And she's like, no, this is our family's lifeblood. You can't dilute this with capitalism. But they need the money to survive. And so she has to make a tough choice. And then they fall in love and kiss by the bees in their little white suits.

[Becca Freeman]

So you got beekeeper, and you got absolutely nothing else about this, to be fair. This. I do not know how you would have guessed this. Beekeeper Eva uncovers an ancient fresco while rescuing a hive. Austin, a visiting archaeologist, thinks it is the key to his research. So he persuades Eva to help him on his quest across Malta.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. I was like, where in the United States are we discovering an ancient fresco? Okay, this is. It's like, not happening in Tucson or something, so. Okay. Malta.

[Becca Freeman]

So the funniest part about this, when I did this with Annabelle, is, you know, she made up a whole vivid story. And when I read her the plot of this one, she was like, I've seen that.

[Olivia Mentor]

You'd think you'd remember.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And she was like, oh, yes. Now that you're saying this, I've seen this movie.

[Olivia Mentor]

I gotta give it to Hallmark. I went basically for the same plot with every single one, and turns out they're way more creative than I am, so.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, they've made a lot of movies, so, you know, they gotta reach out there to find something new.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, they do. All the way to Malta.

[Becca Freeman]

The Amazing Race Malta. Yeah. Like, they're really integrating. It's not just failing family businesses.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's not contrary to what I clearly believe.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

But cool. That was super fun.

[Becca Freeman]

Cool. All right, let's take a quick ad break and come back for some more things.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

I think my cookware set arrives today. I'm very excited to try it after your ringing endorsement. Also, did you know that cheap pans can be less effective but also made with chemicals that you probably don't want anywhere near your food? Luckily, Caraway has premium cookware made of high quality materials. Caraway's ceramic cookware is free from toxic materials including pfas, pfoa, ptfe, lead, cadmium and other harmful chemicals. Caraway also has an excellent food storage set and wood cutting boards with zero plastic involved. 95% of home goods on the market contain forever chemicals, but not Caraway.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

All right Olivia, where are we headed next? Oh my gosh, we're already on your last thing.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know this has been flying by. I've loved this three things. It's a really nice mix. My next one is a writing question. I really wanted to talk to you about process and craft and specifically if either of those things have changed or evolved for you in this process versus the revisions and writing of your first novel. Obviously the emotional process has been very different, which I'm happy to hear about as well if you want to share. But I specifically would love to know about things you do differently. Editing techniques, habits.

[Becca Freeman]

My high level process has generally stayed the same. I in both cases wrote knowing a Few plot points, but without a full outline. And, you know, generally had a writing goal somewhere between a thousand and fifteen hundred words per writing session, wrote chronologically from start to finish, and, you know, did a first draft, then probably printed it out, went over everything, made a whole list of what I wanted to change, put up some index cards on walls of, like, things that needed to be rearranged, and then kind of went through edit rounds. I think one key difference is that with my second book, I already had an agent and an editor, so those people came in earlier than with my first book, where I worked on it by myself for probably an additional draft before I showed anyone. I think the process has been the same, but, like, the challenges that I'm dealing with are so different. So in that way, the whole experience feels different. So with my first book, I drastically underwrote the first draft. So my first draft was 55,000 words or somewhere around there, and the final draft was 90,000 words. So a lot of it was about adding to it and kind of deepening everything and adding chapters. Like, there was a really janky ending on the first draft of my first book, which I knew wasn't right from the start, so, like, really deepening that. But with my second book, I think my first draft was like 110,000 words or something. So it's been very different in terms of needing to peel it back and not just peeling it back, but then also making additional room to add other things. So it's just been a whole different ball game. I would say that I. I think I realized something, and I. I think I, like, briefly touched on this. So forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but I think I just realized on this past draft, one thing that I do while I'm editing is I want to touch every word and sentence every time. Like, I got this from you, like, re keying the whole draft. And I. I usually do that for like a second or. Or a third draft. This most recent draft I did was a fifth draft. So I wasn't re keying everything, but there were times when I was re keying full chapters if a lot of things were changing or if I wasn't happy with them. And I think that that gives me a false sense of progress where, you know, I might only be changing a few words, but because I'm retyping 5,000 words, it really feels like I got a lot in. And so on the last pass of this, I kind of did one pass where I did what I would usually do. I touched every word if there was a sentence that I wasn't happy with, I, like, figured it out and didn't move on until I was happier with it. And I spent a lot of time on things that I think were already pretty much fine or found, you know, rewrote things for the sake of rewriting them, versus, after I finished this pass, I printed out the draft again. And I spent probably like two and a half days rereading it with a highlighter and a red pen and making changes on the page and. Or writing myself notes of what I wanted to change about something. I left a little sticky tab on every page that had edits on it, and I only went back to those sticky tabs. And I was shocked how much progress I made in two and a half days of addressing just those sticky tabs and being like, okay, in this section, you need to fix this. Whether it was a sentence or whether it was like, you need to connect this back to this earlier plot point or whatever it was. Like, it wasn't just at the sentence level of, like, the sentence is kind of wonky. Make it read better. And I was shocked how much I got done. And so I think that's a process that I will carry forward after this, that I think, you know, sometimes you do want to read the whole draft and fix everything, but maybe I'm wasting time getting into that on every draft.

[Olivia Mentor]

Interesting. Talking about word count, do you find taking things away or adding more and revising more difficult?

[Becca Freeman]

I have found taking things away to be massively more difficult.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Same. Because also it requires adding stuff later because you're inevitably changing a lot of things, like domino effect. And so it feels like all the.

[Becca Freeman]

Work, actually, it was really interesting. I went to this webinar a few months ago that Rufi Thorpe, who wrote Margo's Got Money Troubles, was one of the guests on this webinar. And she was talking about how the initial draft of Margo's Got Money Troubles was something bonkers. Like, it was like 130,000 words. Like, it was so much longer than a standard contemporary. And she read kind of like a page section from what she had originally and then from where she ended up. And I think the challenge was that, like, the first version she had, it was really good, you know, like, it had a lot of extra stuff there, but it was fun and interesting and it, like, it was still good, but on the whole, it was like, you cannot have 130 word contemporary. I mean, I guess you could, but, like, that would have so fundamentally bogged down that Story, which was so quick and zippy to me. And so I think that that's really challenging where it's like you have things that at the line level or at, you know, the paragraph level, you're like, I really like this. But it's like, what do you cut?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I've had a lot of trouble in the past with cutting and knowing there are things that can exist in my brain for the story but don't actually need to exist for the reader. I find that really hard because to me, similarly to how Katie Kamura, not to compare anything I do to her, but what she was saying about how she had this whole backstory that she was really attached to, it can be really hard because the instinct is, oh, it deepens everything to have more, more, more. But that's not necessarily actually true. Sometimes it makes things less effective and, and more muddled.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, the same question back to you. Because you're actually working on a fairly new project, you're in the midst of a first draft. So I'm curious, are you doing anything different this time?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm using a little bit of an outline and I. And by that I mean the most rough of rough outlines, which I have never done before. And I find it helpful in the sense that when I can't even fathom writing a new sentence or a fresh scene, sometimes going to my little very rough outline where like one chapter will just be like, kiss or like ocean. I have one word, you know, but sometimes going to that and thinking, okay, how could this shift? Or what should I change? Actually makes me feel excited to then go back to the writing itself. So having having that different way to use my brain is useful and I think just gives a very flimsy structure to the draft. I mean, I have used outlines, I guess in later drafts before, but never in a first draft, so. So, yeah, I think that's really one different way that's been kind of interesting. But I also think I'm learning that like every time is a little bit different.

[Becca Freeman]

I have a follow up question. Why did you choose to use an outline this time? Do you feel like you were going down tangent roads on previous ones or that you were generating material that ultimately didn't need to be there? Or was it just because you were like, I have more involved in this and I need to like, explain what this book is to my editor or to my agent partially.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's that the structure is a little more complicated. So I think I wanted to stay organized. There's like multiple points of view and multiple Timelines. So that's part of it. But I didn't actually make it until I was about maybe 25,000 or 30,000 words into the draft or maybe 20, I don't know. Because it was only then that I felt like I had enough of the story in my brain unfurling that I. I could sort of put it into words. I felt like I had generated enough just by thinking and writing that I could do that. Like, I don't think I could sit down day one and write an outline or plot in any sense. I think you kind of have to feel it out, or at least I do. But honestly, I think I mostly wrote it because I just was stuck writing. And I was like, well, I've been thinking about maybe this happens or maybe that happens, or how do we get from this point to that point? And there's a lot of parts of the outline that are just blank too, as well. But I don't know, it's kind of nice to have something else to look at or work on that isn't the actual sentence level stuff. Well, what's your final thing? Are we at your final thing?

[Becca Freeman]

We're at my final thing. Okay. So this is oddly inspired by our recent Wayfair ads where we've been talking about outdoor dinner parties and just summer entertaining. And I wanted to know, money is no object. Feasibility is no object. What does your dream summer dinner party look like?

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I'm glad you asked. We're going to a villa in Tuscany.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, great.

[Olivia Mentor]

First class.

[Becca Freeman]

That's definitely allowed.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have this dream one day of renting a villa in Tuscany, and it's one of those beautiful villas. There's rolling hills in the background, and everything is, like, awash in golden light. And in the distance, there's a town, Pienza. And there's a long table with linen tablecloths and lots of, of course, taper candles and bread and olive oil and red wine. And I'm wearing a dress from Doan that I can somehow fit into and. And keep going as much as you want.

[Becca Freeman]

There's a late night dj.

[Olivia Mentor]

There's a late night dj. What are you eating? Oh, pasta bowls and bowls of pasta and more pasta and fresh tomatoes and also on the pasta, I don't know, shrimp and fresh food. Just all Italian, delicious. Like Tuscan food.

[Becca Freeman]

Are you cooking it or is there, like a nona in the kitchen? No, no, no, you're being served.

[Olivia Mentor]

There's a whole. There's a whole team. There's a whole team? Yes, we're being Served. I don't have to think about anything. There's beautiful music playing. It's all people I love. Everyone's having a good time. Everyone feels welcome. No one has to drive anywhere. There's a pool. After the dj, maybe we all jump in the pool. I don't know. That was what came to mind immediately.

[Becca Freeman]

I love.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have thought about it.

[Becca Freeman]

I love your certainty.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Tell me yours, though.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so mine was actually loosely inspired by a scene in It's a Love Story by Annabel Monahan, her most recent book. They go to this clam bake on the beach, and they've made lobsters and, I don't know, crab legs and corn and potatoes, and they kind of just, like, dump it all out on the table. And I was like, yes, I want that. But there's this at the beach. It seems very casual. I think mine is less casual. It's like faux casual where it's, like, rich people pretending to be casual. So we're somewhere on the west coast where there's not mosquitoes.

[Olivia Mentor]

So, like, barefoot with a designer dress is the vibe I'm getting.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And we're. We're not on the beach because I am a real sand attractor. So we're overlooking the beach. We're, like, on a huge veranda at, like, Oprah's Malibu mansion. I don't know what that looks like. I just assume it's great. I trust it. Like, a lot of blonde wood. Really beautiful, huge, long table overlooking the ocean. Everyone's wearing. It's a little chilly. Like, I think we're wearing, like, sweaters over dresses. We're wearing, like, jeans with, like, the ankle rolled up. Like, it's not steamy. I'm picturing a lot of candles and hurricane jars. Not tapers.

[Olivia Mentor]

Nice.

[Becca Freeman]

It's like the flame is separated from the people because we're going to dump the food on the table. There's, like, a big roll of craft paper down the table, or. I don't know how you would do it so it doesn't leak through. But, like, somehow we're just dumping out lobsters and steamers and crab legs and potatoes and corn and everything just, like, across the table. And it's kind of just like, grab what you want and put on your plate. I guess there has to be some way that you get rid of shells. So maybe there's, like, little waste baskets, like, between each seat where you can kind of just, like, put your shells after so you don't have to look at it. Like, little wicker waste Baskets, maybe wicker waste baskets. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. That was a. That is a tongue.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

A tongue twister.

[Becca Freeman]

There is a never ending supply of really soft, buttery, not acidic, so it won't give me heartburn. White wine. One of those dinner parties where your glass is just constantly being refilled. Everyone's, like, drunk, laughing, having the best time. Because we're potentially at Oprah's house.

[Olivia Mentor]

Is Oprah there?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I own it. Or have rented it, in this case.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right.

[Becca Freeman]

And you know, also, like, people can kind of come in and out of the house because, like, if you need to go to the bathroom, like, I. I don't want. Like, we're not on the beach because we need amenities.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

I think there's like a great. Maybe like, yacht rock kind of like retro playlist playing. And it's late. It's like, you know, because the sun sets late in summer. So, you know, this is at like 9 or 10 o' clock. Like, it's dark out.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Glowing.

[Becca Freeman]

It's glowing.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's it?

[Becca Freeman]

I think so. I don't know. What else do you want to know?

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. What? I don't know. It's just. I could have kept listening for hours. I was wrapped. I was right there. That sounds delightful.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And then I think, you know, we made so much of a mess that maybe we moved down to the beach for s' mores after. Like, there's a fire pit, something like, we're not gonna reset. Clean and reset this table. Like, people will do it, but we're just gonna, like, move locations.

[Olivia Mentor]

Not at Oprah's house or not.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. We're like, this table's dead to us. Let's go somewhere else.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. And then you could go to her avocado orchard. I know it's not actually Oprah's house. It's just I'm really stuck on the Oprah thing. What if everyone got a gift bag of fresh avocados?

[Becca Freeman]

I love that. I would love everyone to get a gift bag under their chair.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, nice. Next to the wastebasket.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Very Oprah coated. Like, look under your seat.

[Olivia Mentor]

Surprise.

[Becca Freeman]

It's avocados.

[Olivia Mentor]

You get an avocado and you get an avocado.

[Becca Freeman]

I think I feel less strongly about the gift bag being avocados than you do.

[Olivia Mentor]

It was just an idea. I don't feel that strongly about it, but I do like the idea of a gift.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm trying to think what I would want to give people.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I feel like we're in California. I feel like it's like Flamingo Estate olive oil or something.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that's nice.

[Becca Freeman]

Or like. Oh, my God. I got Flamingo Estate sent me a few things. It's like, standing right to the left of my computer, which is why I'm thinking of it. And they sent me this rosemary candle. Olivia, it's. I mean, it's so not candle weather in my apartment right now. It's balmy in here. This is. I wouldn't have expected that. I would like a rosemary smelling candle. Oh, my God. It's so good.

[Olivia Mentor]

It sounds so nice for summer. I've been struggling with summer candles.

[Becca Freeman]

It's so nice.

[Olivia Mentor]

TJ Maxx is failing me. Well, you could gift that.

[Becca Freeman]

I could gift that. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Not re. Gift. You would have your own supply. Obviously, in this situation, you keep yours. Everyone gets their own.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, and also everyone has their own little tea light thing with a ramekin of melted butter at their seat so that it stays melted and warm.

[Olivia Mentor]

Personal butter is elite.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, everyone has a set of corn cob holders, because I don't like to get my hands, like, buttery with corn.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Who needs that?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Are the corn holders also like little corns? I only like the corn holders that are corn.

[Becca Freeman]

I think they're. Everyone gets, like, a unique one, so it's like, oh, what's your corn holder? It's like, a fun thing to talk about with your neighbor.

[Olivia Mentor]

Can I make an addition to mine?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Olivia Mentor]

So the late night DJ is also Pedro Pascal.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, great.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's a surprise. Everyone's, like, you know, drunk by that point. And I say, hey, there's a DJ coming. You may know him. And it's Pedro.

[Becca Freeman]

I love that. For us, I hope. I'm enjoying.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's casual. It's like. It's like, not weird. I'm like, don't take photos, guys. Or do. But he's my friend, so, you know, so don't be weird about it. Yeah. Anyway, I talk about Pedro way too much on this podcast, is what I have, actually way more than in my normal life. But I promise, I promise I do.

[Becca Freeman]

But I'm not inclined to believe you. But if that helps you sleep at.

[Olivia Mentor]

Night, let me tell you, when that Vanity Fair photo shoot dropped, I'm sure you've seen it with Pedro.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't actually think I have. Recently.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Google it.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

The amount of listeners in my DMs, I think 15 people sent it to me.

[Becca Freeman]

That is for me. Lobster apparel.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm leaning into you. It's true. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Where it's Like, I need, like, one lobster outfit a year. I don't need to own every lobster item on the Internet. It's nice to be thought of.

[Olivia Mentor]

I will say for me, Pedro is tied, if not a little bit below anything having to do with garlic smells. So my brand, an aversion to garlic smell and a love for Paige.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Mine is clippy and lobster clothing.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is who we are.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, we have a lot of passions, you know, and I appreciate that people appreciate them.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Agree, agree. Speaking of passions, let's get out of here and get into some obsessions. How was that for a transition?

[Olivia Mentor]

It was very seamless. It was good. Mentally. I was still in the Tuscan villa, so it took me a second to sort of separate from, you know, that. But I don't think I have an obsession. I didn't list one. I. I kind of forgot, but it would occur to me if I did, and I maybe my. Maybe notes on your Notes on your sudden disappearance. We'll call it that.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Which we'll get to in books. What's your obsession?

[Becca Freeman]

Mine are these Old Navy tank tops that I got two of the other week. And I think that they look like Doan. They have kind of a ruffly seam, and then they have ruching kind of like around the boobs. And I got one in a ditzy floral print, and then I got one in kind of like a light periwinkle blue. And these tank tops, I mean, they were on sale. I think everything on Old Navy is, like, generally on sale. And I think they were $8, and I think that they look so much more expensive. I'm, like, really pointing right now. I'm, like, aggressively gesticulating at Olivia. I think they look so much more expensive than Old Navy usually does.

[Olivia Mentor]

I am curious about. About these. I can kind of picture them in my head because they sound similar to an item from Gap that was in my very large Gap checkout.

[Becca Freeman]

I won't find it right now to send it to you. Listeners might be familiar because I have both shown it on Instagram, linked it on my newsletter. Like, I can't stop talking about how much I like this tank top.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, cute. Yeah, I see what you mean about the Doan thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. And it's $8.

[Becca Freeman]

Can't beat it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Very cute.

[Becca Freeman]

All right, let's talk about reading, because you have about 17 books in here, and I also need to hear about notes on your sudden disappearance.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I read a lot. Okay, So I finished a lot. I should say the first one Is the Bombshell by Darrow Farr. Okay, so it's about this daughter, this teenage daughter of a high ranking politician in Corsica.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Never known anything about Corsica. I learned so much in this book. She is kidnapped by nationalists who essentially want to take back control of Corsica from France and through violence and bombs and other means. And basically a little while into her kidnapping, she starts to kind of see their point.

[Becca Freeman]

And so this is like a Sharon Tate thing. Well, of course it can Sharon Tate.

[Olivia Mentor]

It is. And it's really interesting because this main character, Severine, wants to be a movie star and she wants to be known and she wants fame. So it becomes this question of does she really believe them? There's also a love story. And. And is she just doing it for attention? Is she just doing it for male attention? I learned, like I said, a lot about Corsica. I don't know how much of it is accurate. I haven't checked that, but it seems like it's, you know, based in real sort of politics or at least partially. And I really loved this when I was reading it. I couldn't put it down and the ending was super satisfying. This would be such a good TV show that I would watch immediately or movie or series. I really love this and it left me with a lot to think about.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, what's next? This sounds good. It is a chunky boy or girl?

[Olivia Mentor]

It is a chunky boy. And it's kind of weird because when I was reading it, I couldn't put it down. But when I would be out of it, I wouldn't be like thinking about it or I'd want to go back to it. But the last hundred pages are just so good, so tense. The ending is great anyway. Okay, I suggest it, but it is chunky. Next, notes on your sudden disappearance like I've been talking about. So this book is about two sisters and it's from the perspective of the younger sister. They live in, I think, the suburbs of Connecticut. They have this kind of normal life. It's set in the 90s. And one day they're going to school. The older sister's boyfriend is driving them and he gets distracted and the older sister ends up dying. And so the whole book is written from the perspective of the younger sister to the older sister. Not like a letter, but I don't know what the right word is for this. Tense. But it's, you know, your boyfriend did this and you said this and you were like this. And so it's all about the family dealing with the aftermath of the death of this sister and the sister trying to reckon with it. The sister and the boyfriend who was driving develop a friendship. And it spans many years as they connect and disconnect and all of the trauma of a sibling dying. And I read that it was actually inspired by Alison Espach losing her brother, I think, at a young age. I don't know the details of that, but it's a beautiful book. It is so funny. It doesn't sound funny at all, but the main character is just so weird and hilarious and smart and one of the most perfect, beautiful last chapters of a book I've ever read. Like it was Pitch Perfect. Just so good. Great.

[Becca Freeman]

Highly suggest I will have to read this. I loved the Wedding People. I really thought this was a thriller based on the title. I thought it would be about a kidnapping or a murder. And the paperback cover just has flowers on it. But the original cover, and I don't know if you remember this because I do remember seeing it and just being like, this isn't for me. It's kind of ominous looking. It's a pool with two empty inner tubes. And I don't know why that is, if that ties into the book at all, but it just, it feels ominous in a way that I thought this book was going to be much more sinister.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, it is dark in the way that the Wedding People is dark. So. But not in a thriller type of way.

[Becca Freeman]

Different than.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, random. I thought this is the thing. Neither of the covers really do it justice, but I think it's kind of. Because it's a hard book to think of a cover for. Yeah, just. It's. It's just doing its own thing. And it's doing its own thing so beautifully. But I loved it.

[Becca Freeman]

But you're not done yet. There's more.

[Olivia Mentor]

There's two more. I'll make it quick, though. I also read It's a love Story by Annabelle Monaghan, which you have talked about. I think you talked about it last.

[Becca Freeman]

Week and we thought, can't stop talking about it, frankly.

[Olivia Mentor]

So charming. I loved the former childhood star plotline of the main character. I thought that was really smart and interesting and I love that it was inspired by Annabelle. Reading I'm so Glad My mom died by Jennette McCurdy. I thought that was a very smart sort of tie in. And yeah, it was delightful. And then I read Dear Writer by Maggie Smith, which is a nonfiction book just with advice to writers from the poet Maggie Smith. And I wasn't really familiar with her work. I've read it Here and there. I listened to an interview about this book with her that I really liked. So I picked it up. I really enjoyed it. The only thing is that it's definitely from the perspective of a poet and a lot of it is about line level poetry, stuff that I don't necessarily connect with all the way. But there's also a lot of things about just general writing tips and kind of living a creative life, which I really liked. So it was a nice moment of nonfiction amidst all the fiction. But that's my lineup. That's what I've got. Okay, what have you read?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, I have two books. So the first one is called these Summer storms by Sarah Maclean, and it comes out on July 8th, so next week. And this one was recommended by a podcast listener and subscriber to my newsletter, Vanessa, who mentioned this a few months back because the author is her favorite historical romance writer and this is the author's first contemporary. And so like, very well regarded author doing something new. I'm not a historical romance girl, so I was like, oh, that's interesting. So this one is about a family. It's like a succession meets X book. And it's about the patriarch of this family dies. He is like an eccentric billionaire, kind of like a Steve Jobs, Richard Branson crossover titan of technology. After his death, his four children all come back to their childhood summer home, which is on a private island off the coast of Rhode island, and they're mourning him. They've also been estranged for the past five or so years, so they're kind of getting to know each other again. And the father also leaves behind kind of some stipulations that they must follow in order to be eligible for their inheritance. So really fun, rich people, sibling drama book. Also very strong romance subplot, which I didn't necessarily expect, but really enjoyed.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have actually read some of her historical romances.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, have you? I think she's very popular in that. In that category.

[Olivia Mentor]

Super popular. Yes. But I didn't know she was doing this. That's really interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. It feels very like if you want something that's a soapy beach read but you're not a romance person, like, I would send you here.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, like, easy to read Pacey, but not like, hard to keep track of.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a good balance for the beach.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that's what I want in a beach book. So then the second book that I read is called Fun for the Whole Family by Jennifer E. Smith. And Jennifer E. Smith is a very popular YA Author. And I think that her adult debut, the Unsinkable Greta James, is criminally underrated. I really enjoyed that book. And so this is her second adult novel, and it's very different than the Unsinkable Greta James. Well, we did kind of straddle the line between a romance and a family book, but this one is like fully a family book. It's about this family with four siblings, and the siblings are also estranged. Can't stop reading about estranged siblings. And three out of the four siblings are all kind of remarkable in different ways. So one's a famous actress, one's a professional soccer player, and one is like an award winning novelist. And they've had this big falling out because the brother who's a novelist wrote a book fictionalizing their childhood trauma. And everyone got super pissed about that. And so after years of not talking, the sister who is an actress, kind of summons them all to come to North Dakota, which is somewhere where they have no ties to, for a weekend. And so they all come there kind of under unknown auspices, and a lot of secrets come out.

[Olivia Mentor]

Sounds good.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, this one was really fun. Like, this was warmer and lighter and like, more fun than these summer storms. And it was not like successiony where, like, these siblings did love each other, but they had, like, kind of drifted apart because of this situation versus, like, the succession siblings who, like, actually hate each other. So, yeah, I really enjoyed this one.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, good. Well, two good ones then. Good reading week for us both and.

[Becca Freeman]

Hopefully a good reading week for the listeners. Because this month for our book club, it's Listeners pick month. Our listeners voted in the Facebook group. And we will be reading Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid for our book club this month, discussing it the last Wednesday in July. And this is a epic romance set against the backdrop of the 1980s space program. And I keep saying this, but I'm really hung up on the fact that apparently Taylor Jenkins Reid asked herself when she was writing this, what is my Titanic? And I cannot wait to read this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Me either. If you want to talk to us about materialists, not the materialists, but materialists, you can join us in. It is. I got that right.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. It's not that I have a trouble with people getting it wrong. I just think it's a shitty name for that movie.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I agree with you. And I actually think about this a lot because everyone says God of the woods, but it's the God of the woods and paper palace, but it's the paper palace. So I'm with you. I think about this a lot. Anyway, you can talk to us about whatever you want, including materialists in the Facebook group, which is under Badon Paper Podcast, and in our Geneva group, which is also under Bad on Paper Podcast. We're on Instagram under Bad on Paper Podcast as well. And I am on Instagram at Olivia Mentor and on Substack under the same name.

[Becca Freeman]

And I am on Instagram at Becca M. Freeman and my newsletter is @beccafreeman. Substack.com and we will see you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.