June 2025 Three Things

Summary

Bad on Paper Podcast: June 2025 Three Things Episode Summary

Released on June 4, 2025

In the June 2025 episode of Bad on Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into their personal experiences, discuss industry insights, and engage in lively conversations about books and current events. Structured around the "Three Things" format, the episode offers a rich tapestry of discussions, punctuated with memorable quotes and thoughtful reflections.

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1. Personal Highs and Lows

The episode kicks off with Becca and Olivia sharing their personal highs and lows for the week, setting a relatable and authentic tone.

• Becca's Highs and Lows

  • High: Recharging her social battery after feeling drained, leading to productive work sessions on her manuscript.
    • Becca Freeman [01:10]: “I’m getting closer to that running downhill feeling. So I’m almost in the pocket.”
  • Low: Managing her energy levels and balancing social engagements with work commitments.

• Olivia's Highs and Lows

  • High: Returning to work on her third book after a hiatus, achieving significant progress.
    • Olivia Muenter [03:26]: “So I too, am feeling zesty in a way now.”
  • Low: Navigating health anxiety following a dermatologist appointment and the uncertainty of potential medical results.
    • Olivia Muenter [05:22]: “I have this band aid on my face now because, of course, the spot is in essentially the center of my face. So it's a little embarrassing.”

2. Industry Insights: Taylor Jenkins Reid’s Phenomenal Success

Becca introduces a detailed discussion on a recent Time article titled "How Taylor Jenkins Reid Became a Publishing Powerhouse," highlighting the remarkable aspects of Reid's career and publishing deals.

• Massive Book Deals

  • Olivia [13:14]: “Six book deal, $8 million a book. Is that... is that the numbers?”
  • Becca [13:22]: “Five books, millions of books, pennies. How do you feel about that?”

  The hosts express awe at the scale of Reid's deals, contemplating the implications for both authors and publishers. They debate the sustainability and fairness of such lucrative agreements, questioning how these deals impact other authors and the broader publishing ecosystem.

• Career Trajectories

  • Becca [14:31]: “It almost makes me feel good to know that the bar could get that high. Like, that's exciting.”
  • They emphasize the importance of persistence in the writing career, noting that Reid's success was built over several books, challenging the notion that top authors achieve fame overnight.

• Personal Reflections

  • Olivia [17:05]: “I love knowing that even the best authors, like they all improve. You know, there's room for improvement.”
  • The conversation shifts to the pressures Reid faces, including being compared to literary giants like Jonathan Franzen and the emotional toll of public expectations.

3. Business Spotlight: Hailey Bieber’s $1 Billion Sale of Rhodes Elf Cosmetics

The hosts pivot to a discussion about Hailey Bieber's business move to sell her cosmetics brand, Rhodes Elf, reportedly valued at $1 billion.

• Valuation and Equity Concerns

  • Olivia [32:05]: “I have a strong reaction to the number one billion. Am I glad that there's a woman getting a billion dollars somewhere out there?”
  • Becca [33:02]: “It's based on like the brand equity and potential future sales.”

  They analyze the feasibility of the $1 billion valuation, questioning the actual financial gains Bieber would receive versus the company's total valuation. The conversation highlights the complexities of business valuations and the impact of celebrity endorsements on brand worth.

• Market Implications

  • Becca [33:31]: “If you're selling 2,000 to 3,000 books a week, you're selling 100 to 150,000 books a year. Like, that is big success.”
  • Drawing parallels to the publishing industry, Becca and Olivia discuss how substantial sales figures can translate to significant success, whether in cosmetics or literature.

4. Language Learning with Duolingo

Becca shares her experience with Duolingo, raising questions about the effectiveness of language learning apps in real-world retention and conversational skills.

• Effectiveness and Retention

  • Becca [35:13]: “I sometimes will feel like I don't remember things and then they'll make their way into my dreams.”
  • Olivia [36:04]: “But I think, I think you could understand.”

  The hosts explore the strengths and limitations of Duolingo, pondering whether the app fosters genuine language proficiency or merely trains users to perform well within the app's structured environment.

• Supplementary Learning Methods

  • Olivia [37:10]: “The only solution I know of to find this out is spending a summer in France.”

  They conclude that immersion and real-life practice are crucial for achieving true fluency, emphasizing that apps like Duolingo are valuable tools but should be complemented with other learning strategies.

5. Book Battle Game

In a spirited segment, Becca and Olivia engage in a "Book Battle," comparing their favorite books from the past two years through a series of matchups.

• Matchup Highlights

  • Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros vs. First Lie Wins by Ashley Elston
    • Becca [43:17]: “I think Fourth Wing, because anything that keeps me up until three in the morning, that's just like.”
  • Yous Again by Kate Goldbeck vs. The Bodyguard by Katherine Senner
    • Becca [44:14]: “I would have to go with Yous Again by Kate Goldbeck.”

  The game showcases their diverse reading tastes, with each host defending their choices based on personal connection, genre preference, and emotional impact.

6. Podcast Longevity and Industry Trends

Becca initiates a discussion on the challenges facing independent podcasts, noting a trend of similar shows discontinuing their runs.

• Advertising Landscape Changes

  • Becca [51:17]: “There are fewer advertisers and a lot of money is going to the very top of the podcast landscape.”
  • She shares that her podcast experienced a 15% revenue drop compared to the previous year, highlighting the shifting dynamics in podcast advertising.

• Community and Intangible Benefits

  • Olivia [56:03]: “I think of it as this little bit of... there are intangibles to it.”

  Despite financial challenges, both hosts emphasize the non-monetary value of their podcast, including community building, personal connection, and support for their writing careers. They express confidence in their podcast's enduring relevance and the strong relationships they've cultivated with their audience.

7. Personal Obsessions

The hosts share what they’re currently obsessed with, adding a personal touch to the episode.

• Olivia’s Obsession

  • Olivia [68:17]: “I am obsessed with author Coco Mellers who wrote Cleopatra and Frankenstein.”

  She admires Mellers' style, fashion, and writing, expressing a desire to emulate her aesthetic and creativity.

• Becca’s Obsession

  • Becca [69:31]: “I'm obsessed with the Wacol red carpet strapless bra... the best strapless bra I've ever owned.”

  She praises the bra's comfort and fit, highlighting its impact on her wardrobe and confidence.

8. Book Choices and June Book Club

The episode concludes with the hosts discussing their current reading selections and announcing the June book club pick.

• Olivia’s Reading

  • Olivia [73:11]: Discusses Cleopatra and Frankenstein by Coco Mellers, highlighting its engaging narrative and emotional depth despite a seemingly unappealing premise.

• Becca’s Reading

  • Becca [74:35]: Shares her disappointment with the second installment of Filthy Rich Fae, deciding to discontinue reading it in favor of other interests.

• June Book Club Pick

  • Olivia [75:24]: Announces All the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harmon as the June book club selection, describing it as a hilarious mystery with a blend of humor and suspense.

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Notable Quotes

• Olivia Muenter [37:21]: “The fluent foreign language speakers are gonna have to tell us.”
• Becca Freeman [57:45]: “I feel more confident taking risks... we can have a really interesting conversation with.”

Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Becca and Olivia offer listeners a blend of personal anecdotes, insightful industry analysis, and engaging literary discussions. Their candid conversations about challenges and successes provide a relatable and inspiring narrative for aspiring writers and avid readers alike. The episode wraps up with a sense of community and anticipation for future discussions, leaving listeners eager for the next installment.

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Connect with Bad on Paper:

• Facebook Group: Participate in book club voting and engage in community discussions.
• Instagram: Follow @badonpaperpodcast for updates and behind-the-scenes content.
• Newsletter: Subscribe at beccafreeman.substack.com for exclusive content and announcements.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Badon Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And it's a three things episode. I don't know what that tone of voice was.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was letting it settle.

[Becca Freeman]

You were so shocked that you couldn't, you couldn't reply.

[Olivia Mentor]

It is a three things episode.

[Becca Freeman]

I like to, I like to mix things up.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I liked it. It was very sing songy.

[Becca Freeman]

I said to you in this outline and then I screenshotted it and put it on slack that I'm feeling wild and zesty. Podcast wise.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can tell it's June. It's a new month. It's summer.

[Becca Freeman]

Here we are.

[Olivia Mentor]

Here we are. Well, before we get into these things, tell me about your high.

[Becca Freeman]

My high is that my low last week was that I had drained my social battery. I've recharged it. It took 48 hours. By Sunday I was like, I'd like some plans, please. I'd like to see people. But yeah, I, I had two nights of no plans, which was really lovely. And then I had a really big working weekend. I'm trying to finish this draft. Well, I was early originally trying to finish it by the end of May, but I don't think that's happening because it's now May 29th as we record. But my drop dead date is June 15th, so I had a big working weekend and I put up some numbers. Like I got into it, I felt great and I feel like I'm. I don't know if I'm quite there, but I'm like getting closer and closer and closer to that running downhill feeling. So I'm, I'm like almost in the pocket.

[Olivia Mentor]

You are feeling zesty.

[Becca Freeman]

I am feeling zesty.

[Olivia Mentor]

I get it now. That sounds great. I also love that your balance is 30 straight days of socializing. Two days off.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep, yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think, I think mine is. I had a three straight days of socializing last week and now 30 days off. I, I basically, I was, I don't, I didn't move really. On, on Sunday, I watched a lot of Mormon Wives and I, I ate, I ate some Sun Chips, which was weirdly inspired by Mormon wives because they were always eating sun chips. Product placement, it was that and Olipop. I swear they're paying some money. But anyway, three days socially, ten days off.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

The more days, the more time I need off.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know. You didn't ask. I'm just, I'm spitballing here. Anyway. That's great. I'm glad you recharged in all the ways.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. What about you? What's your high?

[Olivia Mentor]

I kept writing highs and then deleting them in the outline. I wasn't sure. I think my high from this week. I've had a very anxious week. Couple weeks, really, which I'll get to in my low. But yesterday I finally got back to my book three that I've been working on. I haven't worked on it in almost a month because I was working on edits of Little One and wrapping that up, I took like a week off. Anyway, went back to it yesterday. Was a little bit scared, but I managed to write a thousand words or so. I enjoyed them so much. I actually have never done this before, but I wrote a little bit of an outline.

[Becca Freeman]

Ooh.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I too, am feeling zesty in a way now.

[Becca Freeman]

Did you reread what you'd already written or you just jumped right back in?

[Olivia Mentor]

I went through, like, the last five chapters or so I had written and sort of just skim them. And then like, I would kind of edit here and there just to get myself back into the groove of things. And then I picked up where I left off and just kept going. I did have the urge to start retyping the whole thing and editing as I go, but I'm really trying to make myself just write a full draft and then do that. So. So, yeah, moving along.

[Becca Freeman]

That's a tough thing because I do that too sometimes, and it makes you feel like you're doing something even if you just type the exact same words. So sometimes it works because I feel like it does make me more likely to fix a wonky sentence, more likely to try to figure something out if I'm bumping on it. But also, a lot of times I can type a whole page and I'm like, oh, look how productive I'm being. And I'm like, just typing words. It's not productive whatsoever. It already was typed. You could have just skipped this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, sometimes I do need, like, the psychological, the trickery to keep going, but I just. I need forward progress. I do have a goal. I'm looking at my little bulletin board. Not little. It's actually way too large probably than is needed. But I have a goal of getting to 60 or 70,000 words by, like, mid July. So if that is the case, I'm really gonna need to push myself. And so I have little. Little goals broken down by days I'm already behind. But this is the name of the game.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm never more ambitious.

[Olivia Mentor]

Week one behind.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm Never more ambitious than when I'm putting together a plan.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yep, I did. At least this time I put the word count, and then in very, very, very tiny letters, I put the date. So easier to not hate myself for missing the date, but I'm. I'm gonna at least try.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, you alluded to that you're having a anxiety E week. What's your low?

[Olivia Mentor]

My low is I had a dermatologist appointment earlier this week. I have had this dark spot on my face, which I assumed was a sunspot that had been getting darker and a little bit bigger. So I was like, you know, let me make an appointment. So I made an appointment.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm proud of you for making an appointment.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you. Yeah, me too, actually. I had been to the dermatologist many times before, but I was definitely overdue for. For an appointment by a year or so. So I went, and it was lovely. And basically she was like, well, we should biopsy this because it looks different than all your other sun damage, of which I have a lot because I'm very, very pale. And yeah, as someone with health anxiety, and I've talked about this here, the concept of someone, a doctor, being like, it's probably not melanoma, but could be. Just sit on that for two weeks while we wait for the results is actually my living nightmare. So I have been spiraling. I will say that I have done a lot better this time. I have had many health anxiety spirals in the past that have been so debilitating that I literally could not do anything. And this time, I was very, very anxious. But I managed to wake up the next morning to work on this book. 3. Going on lots of walks, taking care of myself. I booked a extra appointment with my therapist. So I'm seeing progress in my mental health. I hate waiting for news like this. And also I have this band aid on my face now because, of course, the spot is in essentially the center of my face. So it's a little embarrassing. But in the grand scheme of things, I'm glad I went. I'm glad I got it checked out, even if it is bad news. I don't know. Just normalizing for my health anxiety friends out there. I know you're out there Googling something that you should not be. Stay off of WebMD. That's. That's my PSA.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And Reddit. Somehow I found myself in a Reddit group called Mela Homies just for people with melanoma, which was a mistake. Just not great.

[Becca Freeman]

Ugh. I'm sorry, Olivia. I feel like, this is, like, your particular flavor of nightmare to be sitting in the uncertainty. And I'm sorry you're in that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you. It's so hard to focus, like, when your mind is just racing like that.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, you have a deeply valid excuse to be unfocused right now.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you. I'm trying to power through, and as my therapist reminded me, I will figure it out, no matter what happens, I will get through it. So that sounds really dramatic because a skin biopsy is a very normal thing, but it's my first one. I get it.

[Becca Freeman]

I got it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm in it. But, yeah, it feels good just to be. To be open about it and be like, this is just where I'm at mentally right now.

[Becca Freeman]

It sucks. When you were telling me about this before we recorded, you were like. I was like, how long does it take to get the results? And you were like, one to two. And I thought you were gonna say days, and it's weeks. That's so tough to be waiting on health news for one to two weeks.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ugh, it is. Also, I hate that, like, I don't know when they're gonna call me, you know, like, any time of day, any day of the week. So it feels like the state of, like, you have to be just hyper alert and not moving through it. What's your low? Do you have a low?

[Becca Freeman]

Not really. I was complaining to you before that I can't tell if I'm getting sick, but we're gonna assume no until it happens. But stay tuned.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a great perspective on health that I. I didn't know you could do that. Can you just. You can just. Just wait for the. For the actual outcome instead of just making yourself believe something is bad.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, to.

[Olivia Mentor]

I didn't know that was an option, to be honest.

[Becca Freeman]

It's would be in my best interest to not be sick right now. It would really screw up my timing, so I'm really rooting for myself not to be. So I'm just gonna go with, like, blind optimism.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm in that with you. We can manifest health for all.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. I, like, didn't realize the insensitivity of, like, I think I might have a cold, and you're, like, sitting in health uncertainty.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. Honestly, it's kind of the same. The same type of anxiety. No, it is when you're like, oh, gosh, I really hope this isn't happening. But it's dialed up or down. It feels the Same. Really? But yeah, I wasn't thinking about that, so don't worry.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, we both have some things to get to. Should we take an ad break and get into the things?

[Olivia Mentor]

Let's. This episode is sponsored by Underlined. Summer is here, which means it's the perfect time to find your next favorite. Ready? Underline is home to all your favorite books, authors and genres like romance, thriller, fantasy, and more. Who doesn't love reading about unsupervised teens doing bad things? That's Becca's. That's Becca's genre.

[Becca Freeman]

That's the number one genre.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or a magical Academy in the afterlife with dangerous trials and slow burn romance. That's a book we're going to mention in a minute.

[Becca Freeman]

But also Becca sounds like me.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's all very Becca. There is truly an underlined book for everyone though. And I know that Becca is also a huge fan of the American Royals series. And I can remember reading and loving another underlined book, We Were Liars a few years ago as well. But there are so many more new releases and titles from Underlined this summer to check out, including the one I just mentioned, which Becca will now tell you about.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh my gosh. Yes. Okay, so on my radar right now is this book called Immortal Consequences by Ivy Marie, which is on sale July 29th. So not only is this set at a magical academy, you know I love a boarding school book in the afterlife. There's also a slow burn, rivals to lovers, romance, and a dynamic cast of characters. It's a multi POV dark academia fantasy novel with romantic subplots. I'm sorry, like, just put my name on the front. I mean, I didn't write it, but like, be like, this is for Becca.

[Olivia Mentor]

With Underlined, you'll not only find your next favorite book, but you can also get quizzes, giveaways, book recommendations and more on their website. Check out getunderlined.com podcast for books and content you'll love. That's getunderline.com podcast where books are life. You can also find them at get underlined on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube, basically all of the places. What is the first thing you have brought us on this June day, Becca?

[Becca Freeman]

So I would like to have an article club as opposed to a book club about the Taylor Jenkins Reid Time cover story which came out earlier in May.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I've come prepared. I've read it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes, I sent it to you yesterday. So it's called How Taylor Jenkins Reid Became a Publishing Powerhouse and we'll link it in the show notes. But you could also just find it on time. Com. So I have tons of notes I like. I don't even know where to start with this. I thought it was a great article. I love seeing authors get the celebrity treatment, and I feel like, you know, authors, their books get reviewed, but I feel like authors don't get treated to this, like, celebrity profile very often. Like, I can think of, Emily Henry did one for the Cut maybe two years ago. Two books ago. Colleen Hoover did one for. I think it was like, Houstonian magazine or something like a Texas monthly maybe a few years ago. But I feel like this is pretty rare.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I have only one takeaway from the article. Do you want to know what it is?

[Becca Freeman]

I assume I know what it is, but tell me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Six book deal, $8 million a book. Is that. Is that the numbers?

[Becca Freeman]

Five books, millions of books, pennies. How do you feel about that?

[Olivia Mentor]

I feel like she deserves it, but, man, is it hard to wrap my little brain around is. It is astounding, that amount. I mean, yeah, I don't think I've heard of big deals, but I don't think I've heard of anything like that. I love how it's like, her agent had no comment. Like, what a power move.

[Becca Freeman]

Just being like, yeah, I assume that other deals like this exist, but you don't hear about them because it's locked down tight. Like, Stephen King's getting this kind of money. Like, at this point, I assume Emily Henry must be getting this type of big money. My hackles didn't raise at all. Like, of course I was like, that's a huge number. But no part of me was like, she doesn't deserve this. Like, she has such a track record. Her quartet of books about famous women, starting with Evelyn Hugo, all four of them were so popular that I'm like, yes. Like, I. I understand the math almost.

[Olivia Mentor]

Totally makes sense for me. I. On a personal level, the way I envy that type of stability, just to know for the next 10 years, say 15 years, 10 to 15 years, however long she wants, honestly, probably.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, the money will last hopefully longer than it takes her to write those books.

[Olivia Mentor]

But, you know, most of us who are lucky enough to be authors are like, okay, this will take me to about six months from now. And then after that, maybe I can make it another two months if things don't get delayed. Like, oh, that kind of stability, man, good for her. I'm glad that women are making a lot of money, especially someone who's doing something as cool as she is. I mean, she's immensely talented.

[Becca Freeman]

It almost makes me feel good to know that the bar could get that high. Like, that's exciting.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

On the flip side, though, I do have to wonder, and I said snarkily in a group chat, I was like, does her imprint now have any money to pay anyone else, or does everyone else just get a nickel?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I don't know if you. I. I mean, she talked about this a little bit in the article about, like, how, you know, they take these chances on authors, they pay them a lot less, and then, you know, it gives them a shot to break out. I mean, I'm assuming they still have money left, which makes me feel like, gosh, does every publisher have just way more money than we realize? And where is it coming from? And is it all coming from the Taylor Jenkins Reed? I guess that's. That was part of the article, too. Like, this the sense that the biggest authors are really the only people making money for a publisher.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And I think that's common knowledge that, like, the big bestsellers finance the risks. That wasn't news to me. I did like how they talked about her publishing story because I feel like oftentimes this can get glossed over, but that she had a handful of books before Evelyn Hugo. I feel like Evelyn Hugo. Hugo often gets talked about as her debut. The same with Emily Henry. They talk about Beach Read as her debut. And Emily Henry was writing in YA before, so it was a different genre. So I get that there's a little bit of a reset there. But I thought it was very interesting that her first two books in particular were not hugely successful. And I thought that was a really interesting part of the article. I did get a slight stomach punch when she talked about how she decided she wanted to become an author. And then the quote says, within a month, she had a draft.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think I literally. My brain was like, olivia doesn't need to read this part.

[Becca Freeman]

No, your brain was protecting you.

[Olivia Mentor]

I didn't see that. But that is so funny. I, too, love the trajectory of her career in the sense that it wasn't just, like, right out the gate, which. I was reading another article about this somewhere recently about how that is the case with most really, really successful authors, that it takes one book, two book, three books.

[Becca Freeman]

I think I might have been reading the same article, and it was talking about how, like, I think Bel Canto was Ann Patchett's fifth book. Was this the same article?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know if Bel Canto was mentioned. I remember it talked about it might have mentioned Liz Moore. I know it mentioned Rebecca Yarros, but I think there's really not enough emphasis or spotlight shown on like the steady build of a career. And like I think about Alison Espach with the Wedding People, which is like one of the biggest books of the past few years, I would say. And how, you know, she had I think three books before that of like, I think gradual increasing readership and levels of success. And I don't know, it's probably also a selfish thing because I'm like, okay, let's something to work towards some hope.

[Becca Freeman]

But I mean the one I was reading, it's now behind a paywall. It wasn't when I first read read it. It was called Is the American Bibliography Shrinking on a substack Called Countercraft. And it was talking about how many authors it takes. It took many books. It was talking about Percival Everett, it was talking about Ann Patchett, who now in present day we think of as like at the top of their game. But it took them many books to kind of find their voice and break out. But it was also talking about how the publishing industry doesn't necessarily give people that opportunity in terms of more book contracts or livable advances to let you get there. So it does take an incredible amount of privilege to write a couple of books. I mean privilege and tenacity because you could wake up at 4am and write your book before your full time job. And to do that for five books is astounding to me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it's a slog. That's the word. I think like you have to really love it because it does take such effort to get to those places. And I really wish that. I don't know, like, did you, when you were a reader before you were writing, did you too share the perspective that like successful authors just are kind of born into the world that way? Like every book I read I was like, oh, like as soon as this person wrote their first book, everyone knew they were going to be the successful author.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I don't, I don't think so because I definitely had, you know when you really like a song before it gets popular, right?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Like I definitely had that experience with books too of like loving an author before they blew up. So I, I definitely knew, I had a sense that not all authors were successful out of the gate.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I, I guess I, I didn't. But I, I love knowing that I, I love knowing that even the best authors, like they all improve. You know, there's room for improvement, there's room for honing Your craft, like understanding the genre you want to be writing and the room for that changing and evolving. Well, because I think it's up and up and up.

[Becca Freeman]

We love to celebrate the ingenue story, like the young artists, like the Sally Rooney, the Emma Klein who comes right out of an college or MFA program and, like, immediately hits with such a big book. So I feel like we just, like, give that an outsized amount of attention.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, that's very true. The hot new thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I also. There was this quote in this article that I. I, like, want to push back on that. I'm like, I don't even think this is true. So it was from the publisher at the new house that she's moving to or somebody at the publishing house. I don't know if it's the publisher, but this person said, when I talk to my friends at other houses, everyone has these books. They're quietly succeeding, and it's just that they're selling 2,000 to 3,000 a week. But the lack of transparency around advances in sales, combined with sensational stories like Reed's, leads to a skewed perception of what success looks like for a typical author. McGrath says, we lose sight of the fact that there is a work a day writer churning out a book a year or a book every couple of years who is making a reasonable living or still has a day job. And I balk at that. I bulk at that in multiple ways.

[Olivia Mentor]

How so?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, if you're selling 2,000 to 3,000 books a week, I think you're pretty much like, maybe not every week, but you're kind of around the bottom slot on the New York Times bestseller list. That's not in secret that you're succeeding. That's a very successful author.

[Olivia Mentor]

That number stopped me in my tracks.

[Becca Freeman]

And I don't know how many books are duking it out for that bottom spot in the New York Times bestseller list every week. Especially not new books, like, books that are consistently selling that a week. Like, I have a question about that fact. And then I don't like the part of the end where it's like, we lose sight of the fact that there is a workaday writer churning out a book a year or a book every couple of years who is making a reasonable living or still has a day job. And I'm like, I think that or still has a day job thing is, like, slightly out of touch, where it's like, if somebody has a day job, it's because they're not being paid enough as a writer. Like, they're not working at their day job, probably because they love it. I mean, of course there is overlap with academia. Who. It's a ecosystem. Where would you give up a professorship even if you're hugely successful? Look at Katie Kitamura, who's still teaching at nyu. Ocean Huang teaches at nyu. Outside of academia, I don't know that anyone's in their advertising copywriting job because they're like, I just love advertising so much. Wouldn't quit if I was being paid enough money to write books.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, that's a really interesting perspective because when I read that quote, part of me was like, as authors, there's always this question of like, what is success? You know, like what, what is deemed successful by the publishing house short of earning out your advance? If you're making enough money in your advance that you can have that be the majority of your income, then that doesn't necessarily mean that you're earning out. You know, it's big enough in that case that you probably are not earning out unless you are those top, top, top tier authors. So it creates this thing where you're like, okay, I'm making enough money that this can be not my whole career probably, but like a big part of it. But I'm still not earning out my advance. Am I successful to the publisher? Am I successful to the larger industry? And so to hear from someone that says, like, actually there are ways to be successful that aren' not just being Taylor Jenkins Reid is encouraging.

[Becca Freeman]

I think that this is not a quiet level of success. If you're selling 2,000 to 3,000 books a week, you're selling 100 to 150,000 books a year. Like, that is big success. You don't have to be Emily Henry, but you're also successful if you're Annabelle Monahan. And it's like, okay, yeah, what about everyone else?

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, that's right, exactly. It's like, oh, actually those are still like basically the upper echo guys, right?

[Becca Freeman]

It's like, you don't have to be Warren Buffett. Like, you can be Mark Cuban. And it's like, okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I'm like, I wonder how I would feel about that if they had just taken off the 2,000 to 3,000 a week. Because I'm like, if that is what they consider successful, I'm like, oh, okay.

[Becca Freeman]

That is what they consider the quote, work a day author.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know. It's like if you're having to have a full time job or a part time job, write books, write, first of all, a book a year, an incredibly tough Accomplishment, let alone if you have a part time job and you're selling $3,000 a week and it's like you're out there working your hardest, but you're. You may not be the best, but you're still good. Like, oh, I don't know. I don't know what that means for the rest of us. I really don't.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, this was wild. There were a couple other things that I really liked in the article that I wanted to talk about too. And one thing I didn't like, I thought the part where she talked about. And I've. I've seen this quote pulled out a bunch that she cites. A review where she was called Candyland Franzen.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I liked this part too.

[Becca Freeman]

But I thought this was interesting that even being Taylor Jenkins Reid, you were being compared to somebody else.

[Olivia Mentor]

I read the part of that portion of the interview where she says she was leveled. That was the quote. Leveled by the reviews of Malibu Rising and how much they, like, hurt her. I was like, you can be leveled by anything. As an author that successful astounds me. Like, I know logically that that is a real reaction, but I couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't stop thinking about it.

[Becca Freeman]

But also that you're never good enough. Like, even if you are at the top of the commercial fiction game, well, then you're not Jonathan Franzen. Where it's like, I'm not trying to be Jonathan Franzen, but also that that could still mentally affect her that much. Like you would think you're in some way impenetrable at that level of success. And to hear that that's not true. I was just like, oh, wow, this like, it's everyone.

[Olivia Mentor]

Probably not men, but it's probably not Jonathan Fransen.

[Becca Freeman]

Probably not Jonathan Franson. Yeah, I thought that part was really interesting. I do not know how I feel about. And I don't. I had never heard her talk about this, so I don't know if this was her coming out. But she talks about being bisexual in the article and obviously I don't. I'm not saying that I dislike that she's bisexual, but like she did it as a way to preemptively counteract criticism about her forthcoming book Atmosphere, which has a female. Female love story. And it sounds like she dealt with a lot of backlash around Evelyn Hugo, which also has to do with a closeted lesbian relationship. And like the fact that she felt like she had to come out publicly. And who knows, maybe she wanted to do that. Maybe she was like, I'M excited and proud to be an advocate for this community. But I was like, oh. Like, I really don't like to be clear. This is not about her. I really don't like that as, like, an industry. She has felt pressured by readers and by reviewers to put her sexuality on the record to avoid negative feedback. I get it. I mean, like, look at the TINX thing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. No one should feel pressured, like, ever to. To do that. Like, especially someone who has such a spotlight on them. Like, I would hope that she did it because it just felt like the right time and not because of the pressure. And if anyone can be like, my books are gonna sell no matter what. I owe this to no one.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, you.

[Olivia Mentor]

You would expect it to be Taylor Jenkins Reid, but I'm sure there is an IM amount of just anticipation of all types of backlash of what she's experienced a lot, I think. But, yeah, I really. I hope that it wasn't a decision made out of anything other than it felt right to her.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I hope so, too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

In the context of this article, it very much sounded like, I'm trying to get ahead of this with the book. And I was like, oh, this is gross. And again, to be clear, gross that we've put her in this position. Yeah. Gross that she is doing it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that. Yeah. I guess I just hope she wasn't. She wasn't pressured in any way. I didn't necessarily get that from reading it, but if that was the reason, then, you know, maybe shame on us a little bit.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah. The other two things before we move on, that I stood out to me about this article. First of all, the framing of her forthcoming book, Atmosphere as what is my Titanic made me feral as a Titanic kid.

[Olivia Mentor]

I had no interest in this book at all before reading this interview.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh. I was gonna say, was it that sentence that did it?

[Olivia Mentor]

It was that and also the fact that she read Andy Weir to write it. And I was like, this might be my ultimate Taylor Jenkins Reid book. I've only actually read Evelyn Hugo and loved it, but I'm ready.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm ready, too. I have heard that people were slightly disappointed about the amount of space in it. Like, it seemed like there was going to be more. And I think the point of view, character is whatever the space equivalent of an air traffic controller is.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. It's not like the lovers are stuck in the spaceship.

[Becca Freeman]

No.

[Olivia Mentor]

Someone write that book, though. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Would read that. Me too. So, I mean, I just don't want you to be expecting An Andy Weir level of space.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I wouldn't be personally. See, I thought you were gonna say there was too much space. People didn't like it. Not enough space. Not enough space, huh? Well, we'll see.

[Becca Freeman]

And then the other thing that I loved in this was. Apparently she is developing a jukebox musical with the. With the music of the. Of the Chicks called Goodbye Earl. And I'm preceded. Like, whoever wants to take my money for a ticket? Like, put Me Down.

[Olivia Mentor]

One of the best songs of our time. An American piece of cultural history. I think I would love to be there.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

As well.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. That was my first thing. Thank you for going long with me on it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Of course. I only have two things, technically two and a half, sort of. So it works out okay.

[Becca Freeman]

What is your first thing?

[Olivia Mentor]

My first thing. I would say my first thing is week. I'm gonna. I'm not. My first thing is week. It's. It's a week thing.

[Becca Freeman]

It's not like it's W E a K, not W E E K.

[Olivia Mentor]

My first thing is weak.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, like, it's not. It's not strong. It's not my strongest thing I've ever brought, but I can't stop thinking about it. Which is Hailey Bieber selling Rhodes elf Cosmetics for $1 billion.

[Becca Freeman]

I heard about this at dinner last night. Wild.

[Olivia Mentor]

A billion dollars.

[Becca Freeman]

Also the fact that they only have eight or nine SKUs.

[Olivia Mentor]

Have we talked about this? I think we might have touched on it. Have you tried Rhode?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I have. And I. I really liked it. Like, I think that the. I tried the discovery kit which Grace recommended to me at one point when I was looking to change up my skincare routine. It's really well priced. There was a toner in it that I didn't really do anything with, but there was a serum and there was a moisturizer. I liked them both. And the price was incredibly right. Like, it was all three products, I think was under a hundred dollars.

[Olivia Mentor]

That is a good price.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And then I like their lip peptide treatment. Specifically. There was one that. I don't think the flavor is cinnamon bun, but it, like, kind of tasted like a cinnamon bun.

[Olivia Mentor]

Smelled and tasted is like the glazed donut something.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I think it was like brown sugar or something.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Or vanilla. Brown sugar. Vanilla. Have. Wait, have you tried any of this?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, none of them.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have a strong reaction to the number one billion. Am I glad that there's a woman getting a billion dollars somewhere out there? Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, she's not getting it. That's the other thing. It's like when you, I, I feel like when you hear about these businesses being sold or where you're like, at one point, what was Kylie Jenner's beauty brand? The lip kits or whatever?

[Olivia Mentor]

Kylie Cosmetics.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, like that was valued at a billion dollars. And it's like, that's not Kylie. Because first of all, they've taken on venture money, so they have investors who have part of it. They've probably also given away equity to other high level people in the company. And I'm guessing, I have no idea how involved Hailey Bieber is in this brand, but I'm guessing that she probably has a silent co founder who's like actually operating the business. So like, at best I see hailey bieber having 25%.

[Olivia Mentor]

250 million.

[Becca Freeman]

$250 million, which is still a huge amount of money. Like, don't get me wrong, that's six Taylor Jenkins Reid book deals. However, like, it's not that way.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's not even more.

[Becca Freeman]

It's not a billion dollars. Like she's not getting written a check for a billion dollars.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, well that makes me feel somewhat better because I was just picturing Hailey Bieber waking up one morning in her mansion and being like, well, I'm a billion dollars richer and something about that. I was like, no, I would be billion.

[Becca Freeman]

I, I'm curious if other people have guesses or intel, but like I would be shocked if she has more than 25%.

[Olivia Mentor]

A billion for the lip gloss phone case. Yeah, I would love to hear other people's thoughts. I. Well, it's also based on staggering number.

[Becca Freeman]

It's based on like the brand equity and potential future sales. So I don't know, I haven't read any of the articles. I don't know if there's public figures around like how much revenue it's doing, but like I have to imagine it's doing around like a hundred million dollars of revenue a year.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think this will mean that road's in Target?

[Becca Freeman]

Ooh, that's interesting.

[Olivia Mentor]

Target.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that would be.

[Olivia Mentor]

I might actually. Then I might try it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that would be, that would be interesting.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, that was a quick thing. I just wanted to touch on that. A bit of pop culture business news that I clearly don't fully understand.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I have a really quick one that we can do that's also my week one. It's something I want to talk about it, but it's more a call for conversation to have in the Facebook group or the Geneva Group more than something that you or I can settle or talk about that deeply on the podcast. So, as you know, I am very deeply into duolingo learning French. I'm obsessed with it. I'm on a 53 day streak right now. I had another big streak before this, so I'm feeling like, pretty committed to it. I do feel like I'm learning from it. I sometimes will feel like I don't remember things and then they'll make their way into my dreams. Like words not speaking full French sentences.

[Olivia Mentor]

But like, I was just picturing the owl there. When you close your eyes.

[Becca Freeman]

No, no, no. Just like words will make it in. So I do think it's really penetrating. But the thing I can't tell is like, am I actually learning French or am I learning to play this game with, like, prompts that if somebody asked me a question in the real world, I wouldn't actually be able to respond to? And that I can't tell because you get asked like, similar syntax, similar things and I'm like, am I just learning how to do duolingo or am I actually learning French? So I'm very curious for anyone who has extensively done duolingo, any of these language learning apps, like, have you found it useful for, like, retention when you're not on the app and actually speaking it in real life scenarios and. Or I'm curious how people have supplemented it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think this is the big question with all, you know, language learning. Yeah, it's like, sure, you can understand it, you can speak it in a certain way, you can read it, but it's almost like the actual conversational part is less a knowledge thing and more like a confidence thing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. I mean, there's that too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Psychological.

[Becca Freeman]

There's that too. But also, could I understand a real French speaker who was not speaking as slowly as this app in a sentence construction and prompts that I'm used to hearing?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think you could. I was with my friend the other day who is her first language is Spanish, and we met this man who was extremely intoxicated speaking Spanish. And I was listening to their conversation and afterwards I was like, I understood that entire thing and I haven't taken Spanish in years.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I couldn't actually engage in the conversation in any, in any way whatsoever. Yeah, but I think, I think you could understand. I'm basing this on literally this one experience I've just had. I mean, that's the argument for you spending a summer in France.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, that is a strong argument. If anyone wants to make it who am I? Who am I to. Who am I to say no?

[Olivia Mentor]

It's the only solution I know of to find this out.

[Becca Freeman]

I kind of wonder if I want to take a class maybe this fall or something, or. I don't know. At one point, my friend Elizabeth was going to learn with me, and we were going to do zooms where we practice speaking to each other, but she has fallen off, so. Yeah. I'm just curious what other people's experiences are. I was outraged yesterday when I learned how to say 90 in French, which makes no sense. It's four twenties. Ten.

[Olivia Mentor]

What?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wait, what's the French word?

[Becca Freeman]

Quatre vent dis.

[Olivia Mentor]

See, I. You did it. It was great.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't think the accent was very good at all.

[Olivia Mentor]

French accent's super hard. Accents are hard in general when speaking foreign language.

[Becca Freeman]

But somebody was dming me, and they said that they're on a 1200 day streak. And I'm like, oh, what does that get you? Like, do you feel incredibly confident in your French?

[Olivia Mentor]

The fluent foreign language speakers are gonna have to tell us.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, also, like, the duolingo at the club girls are gonna have to tell us, like, the people who are on these. These streaks.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. That's an incredible. That's a long streak that. I don't think I've done anything that many days in a row except probably cheat a little.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, they want you to keep the streaks. That, like, motivates you. So even if you, like, skip a day, sometimes they're just like, you're fine. It's still your streak.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's nice. A little grace from the Duolingo owl. Wait, no. The owl is dead, isn't it?

[Becca Freeman]

No, he came back. He's alive.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

He's alive. I also know an exercise amount of owl based things in French.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ah, okay. Would you like to use owl in a sentence for us? That was good.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you.

[Olivia Mentor]

That was really good. What did you say?

[Becca Freeman]

I said the owl catches the mouse.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh. I mean, a useful phrase if I've ever heard.

[Becca Freeman]

I know, right?

[Olivia Mentor]

It's. It's a matter of days before that is just crucial to your existence.

[Becca Freeman]

Absolutely.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, let's take an ad break and then get into some more things. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. With Father's Day right around the corner, it's a good idea to start thinking of gift ideas right now. And I know that my dad loves to relax on the couch and watch sports and movies. Ask me how many times I have seen Saving Private Ryan because he's watching it. Or Rocky 1, 2 or 3 or 5. How many are there? I don't know. I've seen them all, probably through him. But I've never really considered getting my dad a gift to make his lounging even more comfortable. But now that I am thinking about it, Cozy Earth may have the perfect option for a Father's Day gift this year.

[Becca Freeman]

And not only does Cozy Earth have the best blankets and throws, but they also have excellent lounge wear. So take their all day tea, for example, which is an everyday essential with naturally breathable fabric that ensures you stay cool and comfortable all day long. There's also the everywhere pant, which is the epitome of refined comfort and adaptability.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think Jake, my husband, wears loungewear from Cozy Earth basically every single day of the week. Every time I hug him, I'm like, this is the softest hoodie I've ever felt. And it's true. Cozy Earth makes comfort that lasts. And this Father's Day, your dad really deserves that. Go to cozyearth.com and use code BOP for 40% off all men's apparel for the dads who work hard during their 9 to 5 and deserve their best during their 5 to 9, that's code BOP for 40% off all men's [e-mail].

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, what is the second thing you've brought for us?

[Olivia Mentor]

I have a game. Oh, Brian, please cue some sort of, like, all star basketball tournament type of music.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, wow.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or don't. I mean, this is a special ask. You know, I'm like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't watch a lot of basketball.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't either. But I did used to play basketball, and we had a warmup CD that we would put in, and it was like the most powerful feeling to run out and do your little warmup. Except one of those songs was that song from Mulan, which is really not the vibe.

[Becca Freeman]

All I can think of is the Christina Aguilera one.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, it's like to defeat the Huns. That one. Let's get down to business. That one.

[Becca Freeman]

I haven't seen Mulan in a really long time.

[Olivia Mentor]

Anyway, now looking back, I'm like, wow, that we didn't really look that intimidating listening to Disney doing our free throws. Okay, moving on to the game, which is a book battle.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have gone to our podcast archives and looked at your favorite books from the past two years.

[Becca Freeman]

My favorite books?

[Olivia Mentor]

Your favorite books. Oh. And I am going to present you with five matchups of these books.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And you're gonna pick which one wins.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. Do you have them for you?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't, but you can just choose random books for me or we can just skip me because this is a really long episode already.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And there are some of these that I've read both of them, so I can participate. You can interpret this whichever way you want. Like just which one you loved more, which one has stuck with you more, which one has inspired you more as a writer? Whatever you want. All right, first matchup.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

We have fourth wing by Rebecca Yarros, a favorite of yours from 2023.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And first Lie Wins by Ashley Elston.

[Becca Freeman]

Ooh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Two different vibes, but still highly commercial, highly popular. Which book wins?

[Becca Freeman]

I think Fourth Wing, because anything that keeps me up until three in the morning, that's just like. You've created an experience for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. I've read both of these, and they're very on par in my mind.

[Becca Freeman]

They're very different. Categorically.

[Olivia Mentor]

They're very different. I tried to pair some that were similar genres or had things in common, but it wasn't always a one to one for me. I would actually probably go with Fourth Wing too, because I don't really read fantasy that often, but I do read a lot of thrillers.

[Becca Freeman]

So to either get you in the door.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I think I have to in that matchup, go with Fourth Wing. Okay, now these are two I haven't read.

[Becca Freeman]

Brian, put it. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Olivia Mentor]

Next round. Okay, so this next one are two books I have not read. Both from 2023. Your favorites list. One is yous Again by Kate Goldbeck.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

And the other one is the Bodyguard by Katherine Senner, which I lied. I have read, but.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, this is so hard.

[Olivia Mentor]

I would say two romances.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, this is so hard. These are such different books tonally. Like, the Bodyguard is so sunshiny and silly and happy. And you Again is so, like, spiky and sarcastic. So they're so different tonally. But I think I would have to go youo Again by Kate Goldbeck.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

It's just so different.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's still on my list two and a half years later. Whatever it is.

[Becca Freeman]

I remember really liking that. Like, I can remember specific scenes from it in a way that I don't. I can remember the plot line of the Bodyguard, but I don't. I can't, like, pick out specific scenes.

[Olivia Mentor]

I just remember there was a ranch or something.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah. They go to his. His family's ranch, and I remember a scene where she, like, falls into the River. So I guess I do remember one scene.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Okay. This next 1, 2. I have read also two of my favorites.

[Becca Freeman]

Uh oh.

[Olivia Mentor]

A really tough matchup. The Rachel Incident by Caroline o' Donoghue.

[Becca Freeman]

Uh huh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Versus the Wedding People by Alison Esbach.

[Becca Freeman]

The Wedding People.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, no hesitation.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I think the Wedding People is such a special book. Like, I just remember reading that and being like, you cannot tell me that Phoebe is not somebody that I know in my real life. Like, she is somebody I've thought of often since it was just a character that jumped off the page, unlike almost any other I've read.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is an almost impossible one for me because they are so equally paired in my mind.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought you were gonna say the Wedding People versus Margot's got money troubles and I was gonna have a really hard time.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, well, let's do that one next. Let's do that one as a fun thought experiment. The Wedding People versus Margot's got money troubles for me in that one, the Wedding People wins.

[Becca Freeman]

I would say Margot.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

I would say Margot because of its weirdness. Like, it was so delightfully weird and strange and yeah, I think they're very evenly matched. But I think the weirdness of Margot pushes it over the edge for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's very fair.

[Becca Freeman]

But I think it's like a. A 98 percentile, 99th percentile type matchup.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. For me, all three of those are pretty, pretty hard. But the Rachel Incident versus the Wedding People to me is nearly impossible. I don't think I can.

[Becca Freeman]

You already pulled an even one on. Didn't you try to do that with the last one?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I. I couldn't because I've only read one of them.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, you did pick fourth Wing. You did end up picking fourth wing, though.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. But for you again, versus the Bodyguard. I cut it, but fourth wing. Yes, but for this one.

[Becca Freeman]

Look at this. You give me a game and I become a competitive nightmare immediately.

[Olivia Mentor]

But. But the difference between this one is fourth Wing versus first lie wins. Both of those were sort of like just middle of the road for me. But the racial incident and whiting people. I'm like loves of my life. Like, much like you. Favorites as well as well. For me, you have to.

[Becca Freeman]

There's a gun to your head.

[Olivia Mentor]

Gun to my head? Gun to my head. The Wedding People. Only because it made me happier to be alive.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

But it's like I've been forced. Just know that.

[Becca Freeman]

How did this masked gunman get in into Olivia's writing cottage?

[Olivia Mentor]

This game that I literally devised myself has turned against me. Okay, this next one. I have only read one of them as well, so this is one for you. All My Rage By Sabaa Tahir 2023 Favorite of yours and the Invisible Life of Addie Larue by V E Schwab.

[Becca Freeman]

I would say the Invisible Life of Addie Larue because ultimately it was more optimistic and life affirming versus All My Rage by Sabaa Tahir is such a difficult book where so many bad things happen. Not that so many bad things don't happen in Addie Larue, but I feel like Addie Larue is ultimately more optimistic in a way that I would say I want to. I would pick that.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a. That's understandable. I think that's a good. That's a good explanation. I've only read the Invisible Life of Addie Larue, so I can't participate, but I liked that answer. Okay, the next one. I have read both of them and they are the Celebrants by Stephen Rowley from 2023 and the Husbands by Holly Grazio from 2024.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, again, I'm gonna go. The Husbands like anything that's weird or surprises me. I feel like is getting the edge right now.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think about the Husbands all the time. The husbands for me as well.

[Becca Freeman]

I love the Celebrants. I love a book about a friend group. But I feel like the Weirdness of the Husbands pushed it over the edge for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

It is so strange. Who did I see? Didn't it? I think it just. They just casted this. Am I Juno Temple is the lead? Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Which is not who I was picturing whatsoever. But I'm not opposed to.

[Olivia Mentor]

No. I think it's great. Can't wait for that. Anyway, thus concludes my game.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you.

[Olivia Mentor]

You're welcome. What's your next thing?

[Becca Freeman]

My next thing, my final thing is I wanted to talk about podcast longevity for a minute because of some recent events. So I know we've talked about this offline, but the A Thing Or Two podcast who I think of as one of our contemporaries, although I didn't realize that they'd been doing it for 10 years, so they'd been doing it for longer baton Paper's only been around for seven years, but they just ended their podcast and I've noticed over the past few years like it feels like the flies are dropping around us. Of podcasts that I consider to be similar also largely podcasts that are independent so not part of like a dear media type network. Or something like that, which a thing or two, actually, ironically, was at one point. They were no longer by the end. So I'm thinking of, like. Nora McInerney ended her podcast. Terrible. Thanks for asking. Caroline Moss moved her podcast over to substack and does it, like, sporadically. Ali Hoff Kosik, who hosted a podcast called Shit, she read the SSR podcast. She just ended her podcast like. Like, I'm like, wow, feeling like dinosaurs. So I wanted to talk about that. And I don't know, I guess if you have any thoughts, I mean, many of these people have done episodes about why, so we don't even have to speculate. But I wanted to know if you have thoughts about, like, why this is happening, how you're feeling about longevity with the podcast. I don't know. I just wanted to talk about it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I of course, noticed all of this, but I hadn't really thought about it as like a whole, As a trend necessarily. I mean, I think part of the thing with podcasting is that unless you are like the top 1%, it, you have to be doing a lot of other things.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And so I think it's natural that, like, some of that some of the people in there are going to start doing those other things, and then they take up more space. And, you know, it's. It's just a lot to balance multiple things all the time. I mean, it's also great in a lot of ways, but I can get that some people just, you know, things come to their natural end and they want to focus elsewhere. I think that's very fair. I don't know. What is your takeaway?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I was just going to say one thing that the listeners probably don't know is just how much the advertising landscape has changed over the past few years, like three or so years. I feel like there's fewer advertisers and a lot of money is going to, like, the very top of the podcast landscape, where, you know, advertisers want to buy on one podcast. That's big, as opposed to buying on many small podcasts, which was more of a thing pre pandemic. And so, you know, they want to advertise on Call Her Daddy or they want to buy one spot on, like, Amy Poehler's podcast or something, as opposed to buying hundreds of spots on smaller podcasts. So, yeah, like, the. Just the ad ecosystem has changed, and we are probably. I would say last year, I think we made maybe like 15% less money than we made the previous year on podcast ads. And I think we supplemented some of that with merch, so that was good. But this year we're definitely like a little bit behind where we were last year. So it is shrinking. So especially if you're like putting together a portfolio career, like it's becoming less lucrative. And in our case, we split it by two, so, you know, it's even less versus a solo hosted podcast. I mean, I guess for me, two things. Like, I don't feel like the podcast is hard and it doesn't feel like work most of the time. Like it's. Sure it's annoying. Like last week we recorded four times in one week for scheduling reasons. And so we had different like pieces of interviews that we had to do and we did a bonus episode. So yeah, I'm like, oh gosh, recording four times in one week is annoying. But on a regular week I'm like, I don't know. I think I'm excited because every other aspect of my career is very solitary and my extroverted self gets excited to have this. Both a thing that I do with somebody else and then also like sanctioned catch up gossip time before we record. And also it's just fun to talk to you on the air. And then I think also, you know, with our writing careers, fostering this community and I don't want to. This makes it sound very transactional, which is not how I think about it, but like, it. It is a level of support and marketing for our future books that like you can't buy. Like the people who are so excited to come to an event or to buy our books on the first day it comes out or to post about our books on social media because they've been hearing about us writing these books for two plus years. So I think that like, there's an intangible outside of monetary thing that we get out of it that like, if you don't have that for your career, I could see you being like, well, the money is going down and it's not sustainable on like an hourly rate basis anymore.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense when you, when you think about it from a financial standpoint. Because for me it's like the podcast is. It doesn't earn that much money. But it's a very important part of my, what do you call it? The money pizza or the like your income pie. Income pie? Yeah, it's like this little bit of. Even though it is not stable at all really, it is shrinking. If the podcast went away tomorrow, I would have to replace it with something else to pay My bills. But I don't necessarily do it just because of that either. And I don't think of it in a business sense, in the way that ads are less. It's like any normal business person would be like, we're in this business. The income is shrinking. Abandon ship, change everything. Reiterate on something. And I guess there are podcasts that are constantly doing that. But for me, it's so important for me in my life to feel this sense of community and connection. And I think that's what the podcast is with you, with other writers, with maybe first and foremost the listeners. And what that has felt like to me has been life changing. The book stuff is career changing. Like, it's all so important to me. And even though it is important to me financially, like, I don't think of it the same way. I think of.

[Becca Freeman]

There's intangibles to it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Exactly. Yeah. So it's an interesting balance. It's like this. It's it's job that kind of exists in this weird, strange area that my other jobs have not.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. But yeah, I also feel like we've been doing this for so long. I've been doing this for seven years. There are so many listeners that I, like, know my name when they DM me or, you know, I recognize when they're commenting in the Geneva group. Like, I feel like there are a lot of people who are lifers with us, not lifers, but like, who trust us a lot and have been like, doing this for a really long time. And like, I feel confident in a way that that's not going to go away. That, like, I feel more confident taking risks. Like doing audition as our book club last month, which I knew was going to be like a pretty out there choice for us. And some people read along with us and some people probably were like, not for me not doing it this month. But getting to have that conversation with Katie was so fantastic. It's one of my favorite podcast interviews that we've done with a writer ever. It was so interesting. I think she has such a different way of thinking about writing than many other people. But I'm almost like I. I was saying at the top of the episode, I feel zesty. I'm like, oh, like, who else could we have a really interesting conversation with? Like, where else could we. Like, I just feel really curious about the whole thing right now, you know, like, it's. I don't know that we're gonna grow much. Like, we've been plateaued since 2020, which, you know, I Think some people are leaving, Some people come in, but it's. It's flat and it's like. I don't know, like, I feel very curious about how I could, like, leverage this with my own curiosities. And also, like, how can I build my skills? How can I get better at what we do?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I agree with that. I was just thinking the other day, like, how nervous I was when I started the podcast.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God, you were so nervous the first episode. I remember, like, sitting. We recorded it in my apartment. I remember sitting across from you. I'd given you wine.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know. I know what you're gonna say. What? How I was talking so fast, recording the ads.

[Becca Freeman]

No, just you were. You were, like, visibly uncomfortable and I was like, oh, my gosh, I just want to, like. And I didn't know you that well either. And I was like, I just want to, like, hug this girl and, like, be like, it's gonna be fine.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's really. It's weird when you've never done it before. It's. It's nerve wracking. And you, like, you think about everything you say and how your voice sounds and all this stuff, which I still think about sometimes. But for me, the whole thing has really been such a massive confidence building experience. And I don't mean that in terms of how I speak or my tone, although I think that's also gotten better. But like, you were saying, like, I'm just. I'm interested in the things I'm interested in. I'm passionate about the books that I'm passionate about. Like, I don't have to do everything. I just want to talk honestly about the things that are important to me and, like, have interesting conversations with people that inspire me and talk about writing and, like, create a space where, you know, people can enjoy all the same things.

[Becca Freeman]

And, oh, there's a very. There's a very. I found my people vibe through this podcast of, like, people who want to talk about the same books and who resonate with whatever weird shit we come up with on three things. Like, yeah, I hear that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, absolutely. And so it's all just been really, really wonderful. And I think it's all a lesson in, like, owning the things that are important to you, you know, the ways you want to live your life and the things you want to shine a spotlight on. And I'm grateful that the podcast gives us both the opportunity to do that.

[Becca Freeman]

I totally respect and understand the reasons that other people were leaving, but it was it was kind of giving me the feeling of like, everyone's leaving the party and I'm like, I'm still having a great time.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's funny because I don't listen to. I mean, I love Claire and Erica, but this is a general thing across the board. I really don't listen to other podcasts that are similar to ours at all.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, you love your.

[Olivia Mentor]

I just love Talk about my Boy Meets World podcast.

[Becca Freeman]

I was talking about what's his name who hosts Writing Life. I don't have a good British accent. Anyway, I just tried to do it.

[Olivia Mentor]

And it was so I forget his name. Um, but yeah, it's mostly just writing podcasts for me and used to be news, but I'm off of that now, so. So to me, it like maybe feels a little bit different. But yeah, I wonder if there will be an influx of new podcasts or if that's done.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think they'll continue to be celebrity podcasts because there's interest there. But it's really hard to grow a podcast now. Like when we started the podcast in 2018, like, there were stats going around of like only one in. However many American adults listen to podcasts now. It's like such a growth market at this point. It's like, I don't really think that anyone who doesn't listen is like in the market too, you know?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, like, I think you're right.

[Becca Freeman]

You. You've heard of it, you understand what it is. Like you're. You're either in or you're out on podcasts in general. And I think like, most people I know who are listeners aren't like, you know what? I really need some more new podcasts to listen to. Like, it's like very one in, one out policy. So I just think it's harder than ever to start one if you're not a list level famous.

[Olivia Mentor]

I totally agree with you, but I just thought of this pen pals podcast I've been listening to, which was new, and I started listening to it basically at the first episode about these two writers who are trying to get published basically. And it's been so interesting to watch them turn out content and just move forward and slowly grow. So I think there is that space. But you really have to be like, I'm committing to this for like 50 to 100 episodes and I'm gonna be locked in and we'll see what happens. And probably won't make money for a long time if it does. If there are still advertisers by the time I have enough listeners, so I think there is space, but I think it's harder than ever in a lot of ways.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Would you like to take us home with your last thing?

[Olivia Mentor]

Sure. My last thing is a quick one, but it's just. It's about our reader's choice book club and some of the ones we've done in the past. The process of choosing. I'll. First, I'll start with. To be totally transparent, I came with two things today. And I was like, becca, do you have a third thing for me? And she was like, you could talk about this. So shout out to Becca for providing this data.

[Becca Freeman]

I wasn't gonna tell on you.

[Olivia Mentor]

I know you weren't, but I. This. I was. I felt compelled. This is why it would be. I could never commit a murder or a crime of any kind. They would be like, okay, so where were you? I'd be like, I did it. I just. Take me. Take me and put me in the jail. Okay, so let's go over our reader's choice book club picks from the last three years. So 2024 ended up being Margo's Got Money Troubles by Rufi Thorpe, which we have talked about here already.

[Becca Freeman]

This was such a surprise to me because I was like, oh, I didn't pick that. The listeners picked it. Like, great job, listeners.

[Olivia Mentor]

I didn't remember that either.

[Becca Freeman]

I didn't remember that at all.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm so glad they did. I'm so GLAD they did. 2023, we had same Time Next Summer by Annabelle Monahan. And 2022, we had lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus, a book that seems like it has been around for 25 years.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that was a fun bonus episode that we did with her.

[Olivia Mentor]

It was. I loved that interview. So would you like to explain? I'd like to perhaps. I know this is my thing, but I was like, okay. Remind me of how the voting process works. Cause if you haven't already been able to tell, guys, I'm in a wacky mood. Becca's coming in. She's like, I'm zesty. I'm like, I'm zesty, but in a slightly mentally ill way. I am zesty with deep anxiety. And I was like, becca, can you explain to me how the reader's choice works? And she talked for, like, five minutes and nothing. Nothing was sticking. It was all. It was literally like my brain was just one of those, like, sieves under a. Like a faucet. It was not great. So, Becca, why don't you tell us.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

With your Fully firing brain.

[Becca Freeman]

How it works, my zesty brain. Here's how it's gonna go. So today, as this episode comes out on June 4, we are going to put a poll in the Facebook group. And I'm sorry for all of my Geneva people, it's gotta be in the Facebook group because Geneva's polls don't have the functionality we need. So it's gonna be in the Facebook group and you can either vote for a book that somebody else has already put into the running or you can nominate your own and add it to the mix for people to vote on. So we'll leave voting open for a week. So we'll leave voting open until June 11th. You can nominate any book that is out on or before July 1, 2025, any genre. I mean, not one we've read already, but other than that, like the world is your oyster and if it wins, we will talk about it. I don't know, you can all team up and find a really weird erotica for us to talk about. Whatever you want. It's your month, so vote in there on the 11th. Once the voting closes, you can just see it in the Facebook group, but we'll announce it in the episode that comes out on June 18th. So plenty of time to get your library holds in to get your preorders in to pick up a copy of the book. And as always, we will discuss it at the end of July. And I don't know, since you pick it, leave us extra voicemails. We haven't gotten voicemails in a while. To include in the episode with what you think. Did I miss anything?

[Olivia Mentor]

That was excellent. Five stars.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you so much.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't wait to see what people choose.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'm really excited. We were doing some speculation before the episode or before we started recording, but I don't wanna bias anyone. So we'll tell you in the 18th episode whether we were right or wrong with regards to some of the top books.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's always a surprise I found.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, usually there's like a few that are like in hot contention like within a couple percentage points of each other.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's like a horse race.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, it is like a horse race.

[Olivia Mentor]

Let's take one more ad break and then we will get into some M matter. This episode is sponsored by Masterclass. As I have mentioned here many times, I spend a lot of time thinking lately about how my hobbies and habits either add something or subtract from my life. Scrolling mindlessly, for example, tends to subtract. But reading and writing tend to add and you get the idea. But you know what else adds to my life? Learning and feeling inspired. And this is the biggest takeaway for me when it comes to Masterclass. I leave each class feeling like I have really added something useful and meaningful to my life and to my brain. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, that's definitely something that I want more of in my life. Is that student beginner learning mindset. So Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 plus of the world's best. Instead of doom scrolling, you can access all of Masterclass's insights anytime, anywhere on your phone, computer, smart TV or even in audio mode for only $10 a month billed annually. A membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every single instructor. You can bring your dream home to life on any budget with Joanna Gaines. You can improve your physical and mental well being with leading gut and brain health experts and turn your passion into achievements with cultural icon Martha Stewart.

[Olivia Mentor]

Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off any annual [e-mail] BoP see MasterClass's latest deal at least 15% [e-mail] BoP masterclass.com BoP.

[Becca Freeman]

All right, Olivia, into some end matter here. What are you obsessed with this week?

[Olivia Mentor]

I am obsessed with author Coco Mellers who wrote Cleopatra and Frankenstein, which I just read this letter. Oh, he did.

[Becca Freeman]

Spoiler.

[Olivia Mentor]

We will talk about it in books. And also Blue Sisters, which I loved. I love both of them. But I went on this Instagram deep dive, I looked her up and I was like, I'm obsessed with this beautiful blonde haired person. What amazing style she has. Amazing, amazing, amazing style. I want a new wardrobe and to dye my hair platinum blonde. I'm obsessed with her. She's so cool. She's so.

[Becca Freeman]

And she's British.

[Olivia Mentor]

And also, yes, she was born in England, raised in New York.

[Becca Freeman]

But she has a great accent too, which is so chic.

[Olivia Mentor]

She's very chic. Just like everything about her is just so cool. Of course I looked her up and she had done interviews with like Doan, which is a clothing brand I love, and Loeffler Randall, which is a shoe brand that I love. And I was like, this person is just everything I want to be. Not to mention like her writing. Oh, I mean, we'll talk more in reading, but I just, I. She makes me want to be better. She makes me want to be better. And I love finding that in a writer. So I'm obsessed with her love. What are you obsessed with?

[Becca Freeman]

Very different lines of thought. Here I am obsessed with the Wacol red carpet strapless bra. So I ordered this before my trip to Palm beach, and I kind of ordered it at the last minute. I got it on Amazon because I needed a bra, and I didn't think that I was going to have enough time to get one shipped. And I'd heard some influencers talk about this. I think Lindsey Silberman has been, like, beating this drum for a while. I think both of the. My sister made me buy it girls who I implicitly trust have recommended this. So it's always a gamble when you buy a bra online because you're like, how is this gonna fit? But I. I did it. It fits true to size. Olivia, I do not hesitate to say this is the best strapless bra I've ever owned. Like, it is the most comfortable strapless bra I've ever owned. It's not as comfortable as a regular bra, let's be honest. But, like, it is far more comfortable to wear all day than any other strapless bra I have owned.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have also been on this train for a while.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, you have been.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can confirm. The only thing is that both. I have two. Both of mine. One of the clasps have broken. Has that stopped me? No, it has not.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I've still worn them for many, many, many years and repurchased them. Oh, good. But weirdly, it's like both of them. It was the third metal clasp. I have no idea why. It might have been the wrong size, too. That's possible. But, yeah, this is a great strapless bra.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my gosh.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I. I love the brand in general.

[Becca Freeman]

Very excited going into summer to have bought this for my vacation.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's a. It's good. It's a staple.

[Becca Freeman]

All right, tell me about books.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I picked up Cleopatra and Frankenstein because I've had it in my pile for at least six months or something. And I just. It was one of those mornings where I wanted something to read. I just finished something, and I was like, I. I'm gonna sort of just shop my stack. Like, I'm going into a bookstore and I saw this one. We had just talked about it on the backlist episode, and I was like, let's pick this up now. On paper, there is literally nothing about this plot that appeals to me. It's an age gap romance between a. 22. 22 to 25, really early 20s, young woman, artist. Sort of like I've seen Her described in reviews as like manic pixie dream girl, which I would say is accurate. And then this man in his mid-40s who's this advertising executive, and they fall madly in love and they end up getting married. And the book is about their very complicated relationship. It is a lot of sex, a lot of drugs. There's a lot of side characters. Nothing about this on like, nothing so.

[Becca Freeman]

Very different than Blue Sisters.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is me very different. There is a through line of like, addiction, mental health. Really read the trigger warnings for this. Like, highly suggest if you're going to check it out. But from the very first page I was like, oh, yep, I will love this. I. I would love this. I just knew from chapter one I was in. And it's just something about the way that she writes that I find so enjoyable. I adored this book. It got a little bit long for me, a little bit long for me. And so I was like, should this go on my favorites of the year list? I don't know. But then I thought, if a book that appeals to me in exactly zero ways in the pitch can affect me this deeply, then by God, it's going on my list. So a favorite of the year. Oh, loved one. Loved. So good. Oh, also, I was reading some articles about this. This book was rejected by like 30 publishers before it ended up being sold.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow. I had no idea.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know if I liked it more or less than Blue Sisters. I would say about the same. I really love them both. So love knew one of my favorite authors. Love fun. What have you read?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, so I am dnfing what I am reading. I was so excited to read the second installment of the Filthy Rich Fae series which just came out last week. And I finished the first book at like the middle of April. And I was like, oh man, the next one's not out yet. I was so excited. I pre ordered it. It landed on my Kindle and I was like, I cannot wait to start this. And it was a disappointment for me. I've heard other people on the Internet talking that I'm not the only one. I really liked the first one. I don't want to spoil anything. So I'm trying to think of how I talk about the second book without spoiling anything. In the first book, I think I expected more smut. It was not enough smut. Every time it seemed like they were going to like, bang, he got a text message. Every time I found the main character annoying, like, I don't know. I was just like, the spell was Lost. So I'm dnfing that, which is a bummer. I'm doing this thing, which I don't usually do, and for a good reason. I'm reading like three books at once and I'm finishing nothing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, in a good way or.

[Becca Freeman]

No, in an unfocused way. Like, I just need to be like, stop reading multiple books at once. Pick one and finish it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it just. Nothing's clicking.

[Becca Freeman]

It's not even that. It's not clicking. I just like, I was reading a book before I went to Palm beach and was enjoying it, but then I didn't wanna read it while I was in Palm beach on vacation. So I started the new Annabelle Monahan book and then I came home and I decided to restart that book. So now I'm reading it again. And then I was like, oh, this filthy rich Faye book is out. Let me start that. And so I just like. I'm like, we're not doing this. We need to finish what we start.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I hope you do that.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. This is a little dramatic for the level of problem that it is, but tell us what we are reading for our June book club.

[Olivia Mentor]

We are reading all the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harmon, which is a hilarious mystery about a former pop star single mom living in England. Her son is attending this very posh school and a classmate of his ends up going missing. And the mother begins to suspect that her son has something to do with it. So it's like a thriller but not. Not particularly scary, but funny. But it is so funny. Laugh out loud funny, in my opinion, but sometimes divisive, I've learned. So I am looking forward to discussing.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm very excited for this. So if you would like more of us, you can always join us in the Facebook group, which is where we will be doing voting for our July listener pick episode. You can also join us in the Geneva group, which is like a chat room app, kind of like Slack for not work to talk about anything. There are different rooms for different areas for different genres of books. There's a general TV room. Recently there's a cooking chat. Literally anything you could want to talk about. There's a room for, well, maybe not anything, but most things. You can also follow us on Instagram at thatonpaper podcast. I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is beccafreeman.substack.com and I'm oliviamenter on.

[Olivia Mentor]

Instagram and Substack and wherever you want me to be.

[Becca Freeman]

And we will see you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.

[Becca Freeman]

Bye.