March 2025 Three Things

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: March 2025 Three Things Episode Summary

Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Release Date: March 5, 2025
Title: March 2025 Three Things

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1. Personal Highs and Lows

Highs:

• Olivia Muenter ([01:13]) shares her excitement about the arrival of spring:
  "The snow is finally like 90% gone off the ground. The sun is out, it is slightly warmer. I can see the garden emerging... I'm so ready."

• Becca Freeman ([03:10]) reflects on her positive week:
  "I’ve gone on a walk every day. I got started on my new draft of my book and I feel good about that. I think I'm locked in."

Lows:

• Becca Freeman ([04:04]) recounts a disappointing experience working from the library:
  "I had a spectacular work fail this week... there were 40ish babies screaming. It was not going to work out how I had envisioned."

• Olivia Muenter ([07:53]) admits she doesn’t have a real low but expresses nervousness about her upcoming author portraits:
  "I am getting new author portraits done... I'm quite nervous."

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2. AI Assistance in Writing: The ChatGPT Debate

Becca ([18:27]) initiates a discussion on the ethical and practical implications of using AI tools like ChatGPT in writing and communication:

"In the writing community, ChatGPT is very maligned. Everyone's asking if it can write books, and there's a lot of fear about the devaluation of written communication."

Olivia ([20:38]) shares her limited experience with ChatGPT, particularly in title brainstorming for her book, revealing skepticism about its effectiveness:

"The title suggestion 'No Country for Big Women' was off the mark. It just doesn't work well. I never used it again."

Becca ([23:00]) echoes Olivia’s reservations, highlighting concerns about authenticity and the erosion of personal voice:

"Using ChatGPT for communication feels icky, especially when outsourcing important messages like performance reviews."

Olivia ([25:20]) expands on the potential loss of empathy and individuality, comparing the rise of AI to the earlier boom of social media:

"When you streamline things to such a point, you lose so much of what life is... There is no road bumps anymore."

The hosts agree that while AI can be a helpful tool in specific scenarios, it poses significant risks to personal expression and authentic communication.

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3. Book Spotlight: Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros

Comparison to Harry Potter:

• Olivia ([30:37]) introduces the debate on whether Fourth Wing is the adult counterpart to Harry Potter:

  "Is Fourth Wing like Harry Potter for adults? Is it about the same level of fandom and community?"

• Becca ([31:29]) agrees on the sales success but notes differences in audience engagement:

  "Onyx Storm was the fastest-selling book in 20 years, similar to Harry Potter. However, the connection to characters isn't the same due to the different target audiences."

Impact on Authors:

• Becca ([36:09]) discusses the intense pressure and mental health struggles faced by authors like Rebecca Yarros post-success:

  "Rebecca Yarros posted about not having an anxiety attack when opening a blank document for the first time since September... the darker side of big literary fandoms."

• Olivia ([39:06]) empathizes with the isolating experience of sudden fame, comparing it to other authors like Colleen Hoover:

  "Having one thing hit and then fearing the next can be a terrifying experience for authors. It’s hard to balance success with mental well-being."

The conversation highlights the dual-edged sword of literary success—celebrating blockbuster hits like Fourth Wing while acknowledging the personal toll on the creators behind them.

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4. TV Show Theories: White Lotus and Severance

White Lotus Season 2:

• Olivia ([49:07]) expresses mixed feelings about the latest season, particularly regarding an implied incest plotline:

  "There’s something on White Lotus Season 2 that implies an incest plotline. I'm uncomfortable and unsure how to proceed."

• Becca ([50:20]) adds her anticipation despite reservations, mentioning favorite cast members:
  "If I get sucked into this season, it’s because of Parker Posey and Leslie Bibb, whom I love."

Severance:

• Becca ([50:37]) introduces a spoiler-filled discussion on Severance, sharing theories about the show's plot developments:

  "Lumen seems related to cloning. Ms. Wong might be a clone of Gemma, and Harmony Cobell could be involved in the severance experiments."

• Olivia ([52:06]) speculates on hidden agendas and future plot twists, emphasizing the show's intricate storytelling:

  "Everything on Severance means something... I'm ready to see Milchick tear down Lumen from the inside."

The hosts delve into complex narrative theories, encouraging listeners to engage with ongoing plot mysteries while maintaining some spoiler-free discretion.

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5. Book Recommendations and Book Club

Recent Reads:

• Olivia ([62:31]) reviews Bittersweet by Hattie Williams, noting its emotional depth and departure from her usual preferences:

  "The main character’s intense depression made Bittersweet feel cold to me, but the concept is something I'm obsessed with."

• Becca ([64:34]) praises Deep End by Ali Hazelwood for its unique dive-centered plot and strong characterization:

  "It's about a female diver and a male swimmer in a dominant-submissive relationship. I enjoyed the niche subculture and the fresh dynamics."

Book Club Pick:

• Becca ([68:37]) announces March’s book club selection, Deep Cuts by Holly Brickley, detailing its indie music scene setting and inviting listeners to an author event:
  "Our March book club pick is Deep Cuts… Join us at Barnes & Noble on March 6 for a spoiler-free discussion with Holly Brickley."

• Olivia ([70:47]) mentions the community engagement through the Geneva app, encouraging listeners to join social discussions and book clubs:

  "Join us in Geneva or our Facebook group under Batonpaper Podcast to connect with fellow listeners and book enthusiasts."

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6. Final Observations and Fun Obsessions

Fashion and Comfort:

• Olivia ([60:10]) shares her excitement over new fashion finds, like barrel jeans from Future Collective, embracing comfort and style:
  "I got a pair of black barrel jeans. They're comfy and part of my big pants era."

• Becca ([61:22]) talks about her obsession with Vuori joggers, highlighting their unique color and versatility:

  "These sky blue Vori joggers are perfect for lounging and experimenting with different silhouettes without the commitment of buying new pants."

Upcoming Releases:

• Olivia ([62:31]) recommends Bittersweet by Hattie Williams, while Becca ([63:06]) endorses Deep End by Ali Hazelwood and I Leave It Up to Youo by Jin Woo Chong for their unique storytelling and character development.

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7. Community and Social Media Engagement

• Olivia and Becca encourage listeners to join their online communities via the Geneva app and Facebook group, fostering a space for discussions on books, TV shows, and personal interests:

  "Join us in Geneva… or our Facebook group under Batonpaper Podcast… We're also on Instagram @BatonpaperPodcast."

• They promote upcoming events, such as author meet-and-greets, emphasizing the importance of community engagement and shared experiences among listeners.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Olivia Muenter ([01:13]):
  "I'm getting so hot, hyped for spring and being in the garden and working on stuff."

• Becca Freeman ([04:04]):
  "I have a silly low that I had a spectacular work fail this week."

• Olivia Muenter ([25:20]):
  "When you streamline things to such a point that there is no road bumps anymore, you lose so much of what life is."

• Becca Freeman ([31:29]):
  "Onyx Storm was the fastest selling book in the past 20 years... I don't see the identification with the Harry Potter houses the same way."

• Olivia Muenter ([52:16]):
  "I think the writers of Severance are smarter than me. Whatever I think is gonna happen, they're already making it too simple."

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Conclusion

In this episode of Bad On Paper, Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into a range of topics from personal updates and the ethical dilemmas of AI in writing to the meteoric rise of Rebecca Yarros’s Fourth Wing and its impact on authors. They also explore complex theories surrounding popular TV shows like White Lotus and Severance, while sharing their latest book recommendations and engaging with their listener community. The hosts balance thoughtful analysis with personal anecdotes, providing a comprehensive and engaging discussion for both regular listeners and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia, Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And today we have a Three Things episode. We didn't have one in February, so some of these things I've been. I've been simmering on to talk to you about for over a month.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that's good. Because I feel like my things are very boring. Very classic things, if you will.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, interesting. I'm very curious if one of our things overlaps.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay. Well, I'm looking forward to it. It's been a while since the three Things I know.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, before we get into that, this episode is sponsored by Nuuly. We'll tell you more about why we love this subscription clothing rental service later in the episode. But you can take $28 off your first month making it just 70 dol when you head to Nuuly.com that's N, U, U, L, Y Nuuly with two U's and use code B, O P. Okay, now that we have that out of the way, Olivia, tell me your high.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that the snow is finally like 90% gone off the ground. The sun is out, it is slightly warmer. I can see the garden emerging. And I'm getting so hot, hyped for spring and being in the garden and working on stuff. I think gardening is so interesting because it's this thing where you're required to take a break from it, like for a few months a year. There's nothing you can do. Like, you can't be out there, you can't be fixing it. So you are forced to take this break. And then when you come back, you notice the year over year change and progress you've made. Everything gets better every year. It gets more full. You know what you're doing. You clear more things, you add more things, you move things. It's just so rewarding. And this is like our third spring here, I think. And I just feel really ready to go. Like, as soon as I see that first crocus, I'm gonna be out there digging things up. I'm so ready.

[Becca Freeman]

In the past you've done mostly flower gardens. Have you done any vegetables before?

[Olivia Mentor]

We do herbs. Like, we have a little gardening table that we made and we do, you know, basil, cilantro. And in the past, we had a little like, city garden on our rooftop deck in Philly where we did lettuce and kale. I could see us doing that again. You know, we have this non functional pool which you've seen, which is it takes up quite A large amount of space. And so the age old question is, do we fill it in eventually and make like a huge vegetable garden over there? Cool. Or do we make it a functional pool? So in the coldest months, we're always like, who needs a pool? But then by the time July rolls around and we have no air conditioning, we're like, we've got to have this before we will die. Yeah, that's many years down the line. But I would love to have a vegetable garden for sure. Well, what's your high?

[Becca Freeman]

I fear that I went a little too hard on the highs. Last episode we recorded late. Last episode we recorded on Monday. It's now Friday. And I had a really good week. But I don't necessarily have new things to talk about. I mean, the weather has borne out. It's been in the 50s this week. Attitude game changer for me. Have gone on a walk every day. I was just telling you, I'm so excited to go make a bunch of returns today, which usually I am so grumbly about. Yeah, I feel really good. I got started on my new draft of my book and I feel good about that. It's been a little slower. I constantly overestimate how quickly I can do things. But feels good. I'm like in it. I think I'm locked in and. Yeah, no, I feel good.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a high overall. Yeah, that's great.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

What about a low?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I have a silly low that I had a spectacular work fail this week. So I have this image in my head. Had this image in my head, I think largely because of you, honestly, about going and working.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, no.

[Becca Freeman]

From my local library. And your library is so cute. It's this tiny library room and there's a cozy fire and lovely. You took me there when I visited. Lovely place. So I've had it in my head. I got these new headphones. They're the next version up from what you have of the Bose QuietComfort headphones. And they have such good noise canceling. And I'm very noise sensitive. So I was like, amazing. I've unlocked the secret. I'm gonna go work at the library. I'm gonna go put on a cute outfit. You know, maybe just once or twice a week it's gonna be something I do and then I'll take myself to lunch. Maybe I'll even have a library crush. Like, I just had a vision. So yesterday morning I get myself ready and it was really nice to dress myself and to get out of the house. And then the library is maybe 25 minutes away, walking. So it was nice to get in some steps. I felt awake. I was ready. I get to the library. First of all, I was surprised this was the Greenpoint Library. I was surprised because from the outside it looks much bigger than it was. Inside was smaller than I expected and it was baby story hour. And I would estimate that there were 40ish babies under the age of one and a half or two. It was a loud space, a lot of crying. There were just obstacles that I did not anticipate. Yeah, didn't see it coming for me. Looked at the schedule. There's a pretty robust preschool age kid schedule at that library. I went, I sat down, I stayed for 20 minutes. I had to admit that it was not going to work out how I had envisioned.

[Olivia Mentor]

20 minutes.

[Becca Freeman]

It was. So I had the noise canceling headphones on, but 40 babies screaming.

[Olivia Mentor]

You could still hear them. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

So yeah, I was laughing about it on my Instagram stories. And a couple people who live locally had some recommendations of other places that are kind of public workspaces because the cafe scene here is a little too competitive. I want to be able to spread out more and there's just too many people and I feel like, you know, somebody's staring you down for your table. Not my ideal. So somebody recommended Talea, which is a female owned brewery that during the day they do coffee and pastries and it's a bright, pretty open space. And then somebody recommended the Santander Work Cafe on North 6th. So, you know, maybe every week I will go have like one adventure day to see if I can make this work.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds like a fun plan. Do you think the library is done for you?

[Becca Freeman]

I think so.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think you would try?

[Becca Freeman]

I think so.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Wow. One and done.

[Becca Freeman]

Just the setup of the spaces was not how I envisioned.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I'm definitely very spoiled here with my library situation because it is very much like most of the time there is still story time and stuff, but most of the time it is like, welcome to this private study room that you share with 2 and a half people at any given time. So if it was really crowded or busy, I would not be about it either. I totally get that.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, so we'll see. Still work in progress. I mean, maybe it's just the pull of my Chad Michael Murray calendar that he won't let me out of his grasp. He's like, you work here, it's hard.

[Olivia Mentor]

To recreate that in a public space.

[Becca Freeman]

It really is. It really is.

[Olivia Mentor]

You could bring it with you, but who Knows I could get a card. You could probably make friends.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good conversation starter for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

Truly. What about you? What's your low?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't have a real low. I feel like things have been going pretty well. I mean, we were just talking about this, but I am getting new author portraits done. My first author portraits, really ever done next week. I am quite nervous.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you have a vibe that you're trying to embody? I feel like some author photos are very serious, black and white. I am a intelligent person. Some are just a nice photo of the author.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm going for something classic, yet like warm and comfortable. Not necessarily serious, but like something more serious than not, I guess. I don't know. Not serious. That's not the right word. Warm. Warm yet serious.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Does that make sense? I mean, I. I want to make sure I wear the right thing. And I'm doing my own makeup, which is fine. I don't really wear that much makeup these days. But like, will it be good enough? And it's in my house. So then I'm like, where, where are we taking them? I don't know. Like, that's a photographer's job and everything. And she's very talented, but it just feels like a lot of pressure, you know, And I just. I'm not as used to, like, getting my photo taken as I have been in the past when I was doing a lot of brand partnerships and stuff. And even then it was mostly just Jake taking my photo. So I'm a little worried.

[Becca Freeman]

Can you look at it as a fun, special dress up treat? You know, you have a professional. You're getting your hair done by a professional. You're in good hands.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Not that Jake's hands are not capable.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I'm gonna try that. I was also very, like, specific with the photographer. I was like, here's what I like about myself. Here's what I don't like. Like, here's where I think I look best. I also have like a Pinterest board of author photos that I really like that I think are really cool. So I'm hoping it all works out. But it's like I said, a big investment and it feels monumental for some reason. Even though it's not.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm very excited to see them.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thanks. I. Fingers crossed. I love them.

[Becca Freeman]

I hope so too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, let's take an ad break and then we will talk about some things.

[Becca Freeman]

Let's.

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I love hearing about people's five to nine nightly routines. Almost as much as I love hearing about morning routines and for me this evening time of day is all about comfortable clothes and catching up on chats with friends, listening to music or a podcast and cooking dinner. And none of that is enjoyable for me if I am wearing uncomfortable clothing. There are no hard pants allowed in my home during this time of day. It is only loungewear. And this is why I love changing into Cozy Earth's bamboo pajamas or joggers at the end of a long day.

[Becca Freeman]

Cozy Earth's products are designed to transform your 5 to 9, the time that matters most, into the coziest sanctuary. My 5 to 9 routine usually entails my Cozy Earth cuddle blanket, which I am still so obsessed with. If I am at home and relaxing there is a 100% chance that I'm under this. I convinced my whole group text to get one because I was so obsessed with mine and the other weekend I had friends visiting and we were fighting over it and on Sunday when they left, the I'm home text that I got basically was just finally under my own blanket. Like we are all so obsessed.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

I co sign that sanctuary awaits at cozy earth. Visit cozyearth.com and use our exclusive code BOP for 40% off best selling sheets, towels, pajamas and more. And if you get the post purchase survey, let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth on baton paper. Again, that's cozyearth.com and code BOP for 40% off. Who goes first?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'll start because I have a really basic classic one that I am actually really excited about. I want to talk about your spring goals. We're both really excited for spring.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And it doesn't have to be like I want to accomplish this necessarily, but what are you looking forward to the most? What do you want to plan weekends full of. Do you have any trips that are on your horizon, are there outfits that you're dying to wear to a certain restaurant? Just.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so what is your vision? Okay, so spring highlights, maybe? Not goals.

[Olivia Mentor]

Exactly.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I'm really excited to get this draft done. I have this vision that I'm going to work on it through all of March, and I would like to be done with it by the end of March, which is aggressive, but I don't think impossible. And the reason that I would like to be done at the end of March is because I'm going on a trip to Paris and Bordeaux at the end of March, and I'm very excited for it. I'm tagging along with a friend on her sister's work trip, and I love Paris. I did not think I was a Paris person until I went in 2022, and it was the first time I'd gone as an adult and with money, to be blunt, and loved it. So I'm very excited. It's such a good walking city. I'm just. I don't know how many touristy things I want to do. Although there is a fashion exhibit at the Louvre that I want to see. But just walking, eating. I want to go to a lot of French pharmacy stores to buy beauty products. And then we're going to Bordeaux, which I've never been to before. I'm very excited about the hotel we picked. I'll share everything. I don't know when we're there or after. Yeah. So I'm excited about that. I'm also excited for post 7pm and later sunsets. I'm excited that evening walks are imminently back in play outfit wise. Oh, my Target pants. I bought these. I shared them in my newsletter. I don't know if you saw them, Olivia. They're these like black and white. Check. Target pants.

[Olivia Mentor]

I did. I think they're the same. Do you remember when I was talking about these blue and white striped Target pants?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, are they the same drawstring?

[Olivia Mentor]

They're drawstring, right? No, I. Oh, never mind. Yours are real pants. Mine are realistic.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I mean, they're elastic waistband, but I don't think they're drawstring. Maybe I'm misremembering.

[Olivia Mentor]

Are they like a linen material?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. It might be of the same. Because I've noticed Target has taken those first pants and now every time I go to Target, there's a different iteration of them. And anyway, they're very cute and extremely comfortable. If they're the ones that I have, those are very cute.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm very excited to wear those all the time. I'm also very excited for dresses. Last night I went to a friend's birthday dinner, and it was the first time that I wore bare legs. Well, I had on booties, so it wasn't, like, fully bare legs, but I was like, oh, yeah, I'm excited for this.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's coming back.

[Becca Freeman]

It's coming back. I think that's my vision board. What about you?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm excited about so many things. I think gardening first and foremost. I'm so ready. I feel much more confident than I have in the past, though I still have no idea what I'm doing, especially because now I kind of look at the biggest portion of our garden from my desk. So I'm excited to, like, play around with that and maybe get a hummingbird feeder for outside my window. Very, very much looking forward to the idea of seeing little birds as I type. What else? I mean, I'm excited about fashion in general. I've been pinning a lot of stuff on Pinterest, like, just different ideas for outfits that I really like. Similarly, I wore a skirt, a long skirt without tights and booties when I was in New Orleans, and I just felt, like, this renewed energy for getting dressed that I haven't felt in a long time. Yes, I'm really looking forward to that. We got, like, a spin bike, which I've been using a lot, and I've been really enjoying doing that and, like, blasting music in my little cottage. So more of that when it's not freezing outside, which is helpful. I feel like this is the first spring we have really known people because we really started picking up our friend making, I would say, at the beginning of summer last year. So just like friend hangouts, little brunches. We have our table just like a Weber basic grill. But, yes, Jake does enjoy grilling.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah. Barbecue season.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. So lots of things. And then working on, you know, projects, different writing things, and hopefully finishing up the biggest edits for a little one and moving forward there. So, yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm, like, me too. Really jazzed about spring. I'm really jazzed.

[Becca Freeman]

Me too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I also really want to get a pair of, like, brown leather woven ballet flats.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

With a little strap over the top.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I love that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Gosh, I'm excited.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I did pull out a pair of Mary Janes that I got last summer, and I wore them with socks yesterday.

[Olivia Mentor]

Cute.

[Becca Freeman]

Freeing. My feet also feels exciting. That was a weird way to put.

[Olivia Mentor]

It, but I know what you mean. I'm really proud of myself because I've been taking really good care of my feet this winter, which I usually don't.

[Becca Freeman]

Which is one of your big insecurities.

[Olivia Mentor]

It is. It is my hooves. So I have been using like a foot cream. And then. Have you ever tried the Vaseline spray?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I didn't know it made spray.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's kind of great. It's a weird sensation because it's so cold when it comes out of the aerosol thing. But for feet it's great because you just kind of lock in all the foot cream, put on a sock and the hooves are moist. Wow, great.

[Becca Freeman]

We really took something nice and drove it into the ground here.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man. Okay, let's talk about your thing, please.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Is it also hooves?

[Becca Freeman]

It is fully unrelated. So I want to talk about ChatGPT or AI assistance in general. And I want to talk about if you use them, I want to talk about how you feel about them. So I had a very interesting conversation at dinner last month and I feel like in the writing community, obviously ChatGPT is very maligned. Everyone's like, Can ChatGPT write books? This is going to be the downfall of authors, perhaps. You know, there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of. It's just very anti. And I was at dinner with a bunch of people that I used to work with. So when I worked in marketing in house and they've all gone to continue in marketing and, you know, have fairly senior level positions at this point. And we were talking about using ChatGPT and I was really surprised because they all use it a ton.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

And so they talked about using it for everything. They talked about using it as a search engine. One person was saying that she recently used it for trip planning. So basically writing a prompt to pull in recommendations for. I think she was going on a trip to the Oregon coast from certain sources. She has a child. Kind of what their priorities were. And using ChatGPT to make an itinerary, which I thought was interesting and isn't something I'd thought of using it for. But then they talked a lot about using it for outsourcing communication. So helping to write emails and especially hard emails to write where they had to convey bad news or disagree with something. And then the other thing that they all talked about was using it as a basis for performance reviews. So you're obviously telling chatgpt what a person is doing well and what they need to improve on, but using it to flesh out performance reviews. And I was kind Of I was very pearl clutchy about the communication aspect of it. And so I guess, yeah. First of all, I'm curious, have you ever used ChatGPT or any of these assistant type tools?

[Olivia Mentor]

I only have one time.

[Becca Freeman]

What was one?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think I told you the story. So when we were trying to come up with the title for Little One.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, right.

[Olivia Mentor]

We went through like four different iterations and like, I don't know if you or if anyone has ever sat on a zoom call trying to brainstorm a title, but it's among the most difficult things I've ever done because you're just grasping it like, whatever. And we went through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of options. And so eventually I was like, let me just throw all of these themes, all of this into ChatGPT and see if there's like a word that sparks something or. It wasn't like I expected it to come up with the title. I was just like, maybe there'll be something, a spark. Yeah, that. Yeah, because eventually you run out of things. And so I kept doing it. And the book has a lot of allusions to diet culture. And I was like, okay, listing all these things like misogyny, body control, diet culture, blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, well, can you add like, some pop culture references? Because at one point we were trying to think of something like. Like such. About influence. That's kind of a phrase that exists, like, in the world separately. And so it was giving me, like, movie references. And it came up with one that was just no country for Big Women.

[Becca Freeman]

I sort of love that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Which, honestly, true, but it still, to this day, makes me laugh so much. It's, you know, it's a play on no country for Old Men, the movie.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like that definitely has to be a newsletter subject line at some point.

[Olivia Mentor]

No country for Big Women. I think about it all the time. I cried laughing. And then it was this moment where I was like, okay, so this is kind of the thing that I think chap GPT when it comes to writing, really misses. Like, in theory, this is what I was asking for. Sort of. It's so off the mark completely. It just doesn't work well.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, calibration of taste level, because I think there is a version of your book where it could be called no country for Big Women. You know, there's a very commercial version of this book.

[Olivia Mentor]

God, I don't think I like that version. But yes, maybe it could. Anyway, the title ended up being just generated of my own brain. ChatGPT did not help But I never used it again. It kind of freaked me out, to be honest. Like, it's a little bit scary. But have you used it?

[Becca Freeman]

I've only used it once as well. And I used it in my book that I'm writing right now. There's a plotline where the main character is an actress and she's kind of in talks for this movie. And I know the premise of the movie and I needed a name for the movie and I couldn't come up with anything and so I used it for that. And similarly, I didn't really go down the path of trying to refine its suggestions, but I didn't find it super helpful. But I don't know. On the one hand, I did think it was interesting using it as a search engine because, you know, instead of getting a list of thousands of websites and, you know, even if you just think of the first page that's, I don't know, 10 or 20 results on Google and you having to kind of like comb through and find them. I do think it's interesting to let it kind of just like answer a question that you have. And I thought the trip planning one was interesting too. But I was so. I don't know, I think it's. Maybe it has to do with. At the time, this was in January, so it was when we were doing our book club for Stolen Focus and having that in my brain too. But I was like just following this down the line. This just makes me so scared for humanity and the devaluation of written and digital communication and especially at work because so many jobs and even my job has to do with kind of digital written correspondence. And if you don't assume that the person on the other end is writing it themselves, especially when they have to deliver bad news, I think it kind of just like leads to this, well, fuck you attitude of There's a disingenuousness and also using it for reviews. If I was getting a performance review, and obviously I know I manage teams before, I know that performance reviews are a lot of work, especially if you have a lot of direct reports. But the idea that somebody is either good news or bad news, that somebody is outsourcing communication to say that I'm not getting a promotion or praising me via words that are not their own, that feels really icky to me.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm really interested in this idea of what we lose as human beings when we streamline everything like this. When we cut out the road bumps or the difficulties or the title. That process of thinking we had the Title, and it not being quite right ultimately led to a title that I think is perfect. But it was really painful along the way. But that was such an important process and ultimately, I think made me more creative, it made me a better writer, it made me more resilient. Like, I don't know. I just think you lose so much of what life is when you streamline things to such a point that there is no road bumps anymore. There is no struggling through how to deliver bad news. There is no, like, putting yourself in the other person's shoes.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, certainly a big empathy loss.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Yes. And it reminds me a little bit of like, maybe where we were with social media 15 years ago, where no one was really thinking about the things that everyone is talking about now, which is like all the things that we have lost as we've become so obsessed with social media and so addicted to it. And I Wonder if in 10 years we'll be talking about similar things with similar AI functions, but it'll be so inherently part of how we work and live that it will be impossible to let go of. And that's very scary to me.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And obviously I know a lot of people use it regularly and that's why everyone's talking about it so much. But I was really surprised by this. I'm curious. This is a very gendered stereotype, but I do feel like men that I know use it more than women, that they're excited about it as a new tech tool and maybe because they value communication less, see it as a shortcut versus an affront in terms of communication. I'm curious, does Jake use it at all? Do you know?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't think he does. He does like a lot of contract writing and stuff, which I would imagine is a format of writing where something like that could be useful. But I've never heard him mention it. I'll have to ask him because I.

[Becca Freeman]

Know a lot of my friends husbands are not heavy users, but, like, do use it more.

[Olivia Mentor]

I hear about it most often from regardless of gender, from people who work in marketing. That seems to be a big, I don't know, Audience. Yeah. User group.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I'll be very curious to hear conversation about this from the listeners in terms of where they use it in their jobs, how they feel about it. Because I also recognize that I'm fairly removed from this in that I haven't worked in house in marketing in seven years. And then even on a freelance basis, I haven't worked in marketing since 2022. So, you know, I am slightly out of the loop. But yeah, my. My initial reaction was, ick.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. That time I was using it for the title, I got a weird feeling. I just, I. There was something I really didn't like about, like, the shortcut of it that made me feel really uncomfortable. Even if it was just like a spark generation tool.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So, yeah, I won't be touching it unless there's something hyper, hyper, hyper specific or I've hit like the biggest of walls in some idea generation process.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I also think there is an insidiousness to it of how it kind of creeps in, because I was talking to somebody else about this and they asked me, do you ever use those Google quick replies?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

And I do. You know, especially like on email. Yeah. Especially the ones on desktop. It'll pop up where it's like the last email of the chain where it's like, great, thanks, or sounds good. That type of thing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

And I do click that. That's easy enough. And I do click that. And I'm like, oh. It's a hop, skip and a jump to getting more comfortable with using it in more robust form. So over years, even though I say my intention would be not to, I could see it coming for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. That's actually a really interesting example because it's effective. It says what you need to say. It saves you time. But then I wonder, like, down the line, is there a world where we all communicate the same way?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

You know, like, everyone uses the same phrases. Because sometimes I see those Google autocompletes and I think, yes, this is exactly what I want to communicate. But I would not say it that way. Oh, you know, or like, it doesn't. It's not where my brain automatically would go, even if it's the same meaning. And so when you lose those small.

[Becca Freeman]

Differences stylistically, you lose your voice. I saw it somewhere. It didn't stick with me where I saw this, because I want to give credit, but I don't remember where I saw this. Somebody said, in the future, one of the markers of taste or style will be typos because it will be the only way to tell that something was actually written by a human.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow, that's really interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

Right?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. It's gonna make me appreciate typos now, I guess. So when you see typos in books, just know it's because there are humans working on it. I know people really hate typos in books. I get it. But it's human beings, it's human nature.

[Becca Freeman]

All right, what is your next thing?

[Olivia Mentor]

My next thing is something book related.

[Becca Freeman]

Tell me.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's something I saw on the Internet. Admittedly, I could not find the exact source of this. What do you think about the idea that Fourth Wing is Harry Potter for modern day adults?

[Becca Freeman]

Tell me more about the connection.

[Olivia Mentor]

Obviously I've been seeing a ton about Fourth Wing and Onyx Storm and how many millions of copies it sold in the first week. And I just saw this headline or tweet or note or something saying it was Harry Potter for adults. And it made me think about, is that what it is like? Is it this community of people? Is it that level? I guess in your mind, do you think it's that level of fandom? Do you think that level of fandom will continue through seven books, through seven movies, whatever they do. I don't know how many Harry Potter books there are, but I think seven or eight. Do you really think it's that level? It has that longevity as well?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes and no. So the big headline that I've seen is that Onyx Storm was the fastest selling book in the past 20 years and the 20 years ago one was Harry Potter. So in terms of sales, volume and excitement around the franchise, yes, I guess that makes sense that it is Harry Potter. I don't think that people have the same connection to the characters that they do in Harry Potter. And I think some of that is just a proxy of Harry Potter's core audience was children's teens and very young adults versus I think Fourth Wing, I don't think has an audience of children. And I think the audience, as far as I understand it, is mostly adults. And so you just don't imprint on something the same way. But I don't see the identification with the Harry Potter houses. Are you a Hufflepuff or a Ravenclaw or a Slytherin? The same way with signets or even individual characters or houses, maybe of the House of Tirandor or something. So I think in some ways, yes, it's a phenomenon. But I think that phenomenon has existed with other book series. So I'm thinking of the Hunger Games. I'm thinking of 50 Shades of Gray, which is obviously very different, but it's a phenomenon. I'll be curious to see. I thought the third book was much better than the second. I think the third ended on a big cliffhanger. So I see a lot of people carrying through to the fourth. But I've also seen a lot of complaining on the Internet about the third book as well.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have too yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

So I'm curious. My gut says that the fourth will be as strong as the third, that people won't drop off.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's kind of a fascinating thing because when a book or anything really reaches this level of fandom, I think people are so enamored with the community of it, with, like, the fact that everyone they know is reading this thing and they can all share in it.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, it's so fun.

[Olivia Mentor]

I love the show, the quality of it. Yeah. Yes, of course. It's wonderful.

[Becca Freeman]

It feels like you're part of a cultural moment the same way of the eras tour, or, like, a big tv, like, succession, or a big show that everyone's watching live.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. And it's a very powerful and fun thing. But I think when you have so much of that and you have that steam, it almost like the quality doesn't really matter. And I can't speak to the quality of the second and third book because I didn't finish the second, I didn't read the third. But so that's why it's interesting when I see people, like, complain about the book, the books, I'm like, well, I don't know if it matters at this point. I think it is so big that Fourth Wing could go any direction the series it wants, and it would be fine.

[Becca Freeman]

What do you think of the comparison to Harry Potter?

[Olivia Mentor]

I would have said no, only because Harry Potter felt more like. Yeah, maybe gender neutral. Like, it felt more like there was boys, there was girls, there was adult women, there was adult men, there was teenagers. You know, it felt really all encompassing. Whereas Fourth Wing felt more romantasy to me, you know, which romantasy I feel like I only see women of. From teenagers to young adult. Well, you know, 30s.

[Becca Freeman]

I will say I have been getting reels recently, and maybe this is just because I consume a lot of bookish stuff and this is not actually pervasively happening outside of these individual Internet videos, but of people's husbands reading 4th Wing and getting so into it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. So that was what I was gonna say, is that now my perspective has changed a bit because Jake was just telling me yesterday that he has on his work Slack channel, there's a books channel, I guess, and, like, all these, like, tech guys were in there saying that, like, they're reading Fourth way and stuff. And I was like, oh, maybe it really has jumped into this next ring of, like, popular books that is closer to Harry Potter and maybe further away from. I mean, 50 Shades of Grey was a phenomenon, but of course, I think that audience was Primarily female.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Whereas this, I think, has expanded to this big. So it'll be really interesting to see where it goes. And if the movies are like, I don't know if Harry Potter movies were critically acclaimed, but they felt substantial, you.

[Becca Freeman]

Know, it certainly did expand the audience, I feel. And it's hard for me to objectively remember also, just because I was young myself, what the excitement around Harry Potter was when it was just books versus the combined effect of the books were still coming out. But it also was a movie franchise.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Cause I remember going to see the movies in high school without having read the books. I didn't read the books until I was in my 20s.

[Olivia Mentor]

I never read them, so. And I still went to the movies at midnight, you know, same with Hunger Games. Actually, I never read Hunger Games.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, really?

[Olivia Mentor]

But I should have because I like, love the movie and I love the. I love dystopian stuff in general. It'll be fascinating to see if it, like just continues to grow and grow and grow and grow. It kind of seems like it will, but we'll see.

[Becca Freeman]

So this is not the one that I anticipated having a crossover on, but I do have an adjacent thing myself.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, tell me.

[Becca Freeman]

So I want to talk about what happens to authors when they have so much success. And so this week, Rebecca Yarros, the author of 4th Wing, posted on Instagram and it's a photo of a word doc screen. And when you zoom in, it said, no, it isn't Book four. Baby steps, people, baby steps. And then the caption read, I opened a blank word doc today and didn't have an immediate anxiety attack. A first since September, which means it's my first official day back at my desk. I'd call that quite the reason to celebrate in this house. Not ready for a full schedule yet, but I'm definitely striving for balance this time around.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good luck.

[Becca Freeman]

I know, I know. And you know, it's the end of February, so since September is six months to have the biggest best selling book franchise in 20 years and to not be like, I am the shit I instead have so much anxiety about, it was really interesting to me and it. Did you read the Elle profile of Rebecca Yarros right before Onyx Storm came out?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

I thought it was fascinating and grim. She talks about just some of the icky things that fans had done. Like she actually had to move houses because people found out her address and were coming to the house. It was scaring her children, basically. And so she had to move to a new house. And she also talked about how getting off planes, there'd be people waiting for her. And I think those were mostly. She was saying it was like resellers who wanted her to sign a book so that they could then resell it for lots of money. And she also just talked about. There was, like, a bleakness to how she spoke about the success and her mental health and things like that. And it reminded me a lot of Colleen Hoover and what happened to Colleen Hoover after her books blew up during the pandemic. And in both of their cases, they are such prolific authors, so Rebecca Yarrows, I believe, wrote around 20 books before 4th Wing. So it's something that writing is what she does. And then to have an anxiety attack every time you sit down to write is really destabilizing, I imagine. So. I don't know. I just. I wanted to talk about kind of the darker side of these big literary fandoms.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I found the Elle profile very sad in a lot of ways. I mean, on one hand, it's like, I find it so incredible that you can write 20 books, and then the next one, you're just. The biggest thing that's ever happened. Like, that, to me, is kind of the magic and the weirdness and the randomness of writing. Like, it's just. You never know. You just have to keep going at the same time. Like, I can imagine, like, it must be so much of a mind fuck to have this one thing hit and then to ever think beyond that, you know? Like, even I sometimes think, like, is the next thing too different? Is it too similar? You know? And, like, I am not. There are not hundreds of thousands of people waiting for my book, you know? So do you ever think about that? Like, how much it must break her brain for the next book in this series or if she ever. That's another thing. Is she ever gonna write beyond this? And that is another terrifying thing.

[Becca Freeman]

She's been doing every other book, so she released a book last summer that was a standalone romantic drama.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. I didn't realize that.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I don't know when she wrote it sequentially, but, yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. It must be very difficult, like, to just keep your head above water and.

[Becca Freeman]

Feel, okay, well, I guess I wonder how much of it is stage fright in terms of people's expectations around the next one versus. And it's all intertwined. But how much of it is just like the haters? Because there's also this thing where with these things that are so big and successful and become these cultural phenomenons, people can't just be like, this isn't for me, and shut up about it. They have to have a loud opinion about it. And especially with Colleen Hoover, I feel like her name almost became synonymous with a type of bad writing like a Colleen Hoover book, which is such a mind fuck. And it's kind of like this book wasn't for. If you didn't like it, this book wasn't for you. But because it's such a big thing, I feel like detractors feel like they get to have a say in a way that I feel like would be really destabilizing for an author to hear at such large scale. There was a Texas Monthly profile of Colleen Hoover from April of 2024, which was incredibly bleak to me. It made me very sad about the effect that her overnight seeming success had had on Colleen Hoover. And I saw that with the latest Fourth Wing, too. Like, it was written about in New York Magazine. Emily Gould has a newsletter called Book Gossip. And I mean, my gut reaction as an outsider is like, sure, anyone who works at New York Magazine could read and enjoy this book, but, like, this isn't the type of book they cover. So then to be like, my colleagues who engage in, like, serious literary criticism thought that Fourth Wing was bad. It's like, yeah, this isn't for you. Like, it's almost expanded to spheres that it was never meant for. And it's like, anyone can enjoy anything. And it's like, yes. On the positive side, I think it's great to, like, read something, be surprised by it. Jake's co workers being like, we love Fourth Wing, but I don't know, it's kind of just like, if you read it and it's not for you, let it pass you by, be excited about what you do.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, yeah, yeah. I mean, the same thing happened with Twilight and did it.

[Becca Freeman]

I was outside of that fandom.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I think it was similarly to Fifty Shades of Gray. It was very much like, oh, this is terrible. How can you read this? How can you be obsessed with this? This is a joke kind of thing. I think whenever anything gets super popular, it can never sustain just full popularity, you know, like, there always has to be people who are like, actually, I think the opposite. I do think it's interesting, going back to Harry Potter to think about. I know. I remember there being a ton of criticism about Stephenie Meyer and Twilight, which is for women, young women. And then I remember being a ton of criticism about 50 Shades of Gray, which is, again, directed towards women. Fourth Wing Also, I would say, is a book that is Romantasy, which is the genre that is geared towards women. I don't remember. And maybe this was because it was slightly before I was paying attention to this stuff, but I can't say that I ever before J.K. rowling went off the rails and, you know, showed who she was like. I can't remember anyone ever criticizing Harry Potter for its quality ever.

[Becca Freeman]

But I think that's because it was positioned for children. And so adults being like, I don't like this. It's like, well, it's not for you. This is a children's book, so if you enjoy it, great. It has more four quadrant appeal than.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, the older ones are very. Are much more adult. Like, I would say much more YA in the way that Twilight is ya. Like, they definitely had darker themes, as far as I know.

[Becca Freeman]

Totally.

[Olivia Mentor]

So. But like, I can never remember people hurling, like, and I wonder if it's because the main character is a boy.

[Becca Freeman]

Right.

[Olivia Mentor]

And it's more gender neutral. There's tons of boys and men that enjoyed Harry Potter and I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

It'S interesting because my perception, and I'm kind of trying to go back through my mental Rolodex, is that there's much more criticism around Fourth Wing versus around any of Sarah J. Maas series, which I would also consider romantasy and are not kind of predated the term romantasy.

[Olivia Mentor]

That is a great point.

[Becca Freeman]

And certainly they've been pegged as fairy smut. So I think the. They've been dismissed in some ways, but I don't think there's been as personal and as an attack on them as there has been on the Fourth Wing series.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, you have a good point. I wonder if it's because by the time they picked up steam, there were so many of them that it was like, well, we can't judge this entire series. We're just gonna move on to Fourth Wing, which is like very similar, I would argue.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. It's sad. I wonder what resources exist for authors in this situation in terms of via their publishers or agencies, because it also feels like quite an isolating experience where, you know, I think Colleen Hoover and Rebecca Yarros are in a club. I also have noticed that and I can't speak to the reasons, but I've also noticed that Emily Henry has by and large backed away from social media.

[Olivia Mentor]

Taylor Jenkins Reid also, I noticed, is no longer on social media and she has her team manage it.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, was she active at one point? I don't know that I ever followed her social media presence.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean she was running her own, right? Like she would do personal posts and stuff. But I noticed cuz they'd made an announcement like she will no longer be running this.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I imagine it's very difficult to just feel okay.

[Becca Freeman]

I imagine that too. And I also imagine that it's really hard to talk about because nobody wants to hear a winner complain.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yes, it's very hard. And it's also like the thing that, you know, every author dreams of to a certain extent. Like everyone is like, what if this happens? And then it does and then you're left with the, you know, the hard stuff and it's painful.

[Becca Freeman]

All right, should we take an ad break before we get to our last two things?

[Olivia Mentor]

Sure. This episode is sponsored by Nuuly. I have been a customer of Nuuly for many, many years now and it is both a practical addition to my wardrobe and also a really affordable mood booster when I need to feel joy, which I feel like I often do these days. And it is also the absol best thing for going on trips or special occasions. Last week before we went to New Orleans, I was just determined to drop off my Nuuly in time to get a new order in and delivered and have tons of fun things for our trip. I ended up with so many fresh pieces for both the weekend away and my day to day life. And I love Nuuly. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a big Nuuly girl. This is no secret.

[Becca Freeman]

So in case you're not a Nuuly girl yet, the process is really simple. So you get your choice of any six styles each month and there are thousands of styles and hundreds of brands to choose from with sizing up to 5x and maternity options. They offer fast, free shipping, professional cleaning, and the option to buy the items you like at a discount. So my last Nuuly box was a total banger. I got this red cardigan that I kept getting compliments and questions about on my Instagram. And then I got my new favorite sweatshirt which I'm wearing right now. Olivia can vouch, which I ended up buying from them because I liked it so much. And also I'm just having a lot of fun using my Nuuly subscription to experiment with different silhouettes of jeans. I feel like the jean trend cycle has accelerated in a way and so it's kind of nice to like try before I buy.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I also do that a lot and I experiment via Nuuly and it's very Fun. And I also wanted to give a special shout out to Nuuly because last week, before our trip from dropping it off at UPS to receiving my new Nuuly and of course, picking my new items in between, it was literally exactly 24 hours. And I think that is incredibly impressive. And I just love the way that Nuuly allows me to, like Becca said, experiment with trends and styles without the investment or waste of buying a whole new wardrobe every single season. It always feels so worth it to me. Each and every month.

[Becca Freeman]

Nuuly is a great value at $98 a month for any six styles. But right now, you can get $28 off your first month of Nuuly. When you sign up with the code BOP, just go to n U-U-L-Y.com, that's Nuuly with two U's, and enter the code BOP and sign up to get $28 off your first month. That's N-U-U-L-Y.Com. nuuly with two U's with code BOP. Nuuly Subscription Clothing rental. Change your clothes. All right. Take us home, Olivia, with your final thing.

[Olivia Mentor]

My final thing is kind of dependent on if you've watched White Lotus this season or not.

[Becca Freeman]

I have not.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, damn. Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

But you can talk about it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Well, I don't. Are you gonna watch it?

[Becca Freeman]

I have accepted that if things get spoiled for me, I don't know. I never watched season two. I've heard that this season is not that strong. So I kind of am gonna wait for public opinion to shake out on it.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is what I wanted to talk about. And this is what I will say. Don't let this steer you away if you wanna check it out. Cause I am still enjoying it. I also did not watch season two, which everyone seems to say is the best season. There is something going on that implies, like, an incest plotline might be happening. I've seen this.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I've seen rumblings about this.

[Olivia Mentor]

And there's only two episodes, but everyone. I'm like, am I imagining this? And then they're like. They make it very clear. And then I'm uncomfortable, and I just don't know what's gonna happen. And I don't like that. And that's all I wanted to talk about. Are you watching anything else fun right now? Anything new?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I have my last thing queued up. I will just say, if I get sucked in to this season of White Lotus, it is because of the dual draw of Parker Posey, who I Love. And Leslie Bibb, who I love.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, if you do watch, let me know.

[Becca Freeman]

I will. I will surely shout about it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, what is your last thing?

[Becca Freeman]

So my last one is another spoilery thing. And I. I'm honestly shocked that you did not bring something related, but I want to talk about what the hell you think is happening on Severance. And I am.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, settle in, Becca.

[Becca Freeman]

I know exactly. I am.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm ready. I'm ready.

[Becca Freeman]

The caveat is. And again, spoiler alert. Spoiler alert, Spoiler alert. For anyone who is watching, I'm one episode behind, so I did not watch the episode that came out today last night.

[Olivia Mentor]

I haven't either.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, great.

[Olivia Mentor]

So you watched. The last episode you watched was the whole episode.

[Becca Freeman]

The what?

[Olivia Mentor]

The hole in the head?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

That's not how I would have characterized it, but, yes, I would have characterized it as like, the Dinner at Burt's episode, but sure.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Yeah. Attila. That's the name of the episode. I only called it that because there's this comment on the severance Reddit for the episode, which was just in all caps. Why did they show whole. Which is, like, how I felt. I was literally like, jake, tell me what. It's over.

[Becca Freeman]

I wasn't. I was covering my eyes. I never saw it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I knew it was too much for me.

[Becca Freeman]

Anyone starts drilling in somebody's head, I'm.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I'm out in a basement, no less.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

She was, like, just eating ice cream, and she's like, now into your skull. Okay, where should we start?

[Becca Freeman]

Anywhere you want. I saw this meme that I fully agree with, that the girl was like, I'm a passenger princess. When it comes to watching tv, I have no theories. I'm just letting it happen. And that is how I feel. I've told you, I consume the vulture recaps. And, you know, I've seen theories. So I have, like, absorbed ideas of what I believe and don't. But I want to hear. Because you're an expert. Like, it wouldn't surprise me if you were the mod of a subreddit about this at this point, I have not. What is your unified theory of what is happening?

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so to me, it's pretty clear that Lumen has something to do with cloning. That seems to be the primary theory.

[Becca Freeman]

Right.

[Olivia Mentor]

Did you share this?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, reincarnation. So I think cloning is a means to bring back Jaime Egan. Keir Egan. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Yeah. So, like the goats. And in the intro this season, there's a lot of babies. Which, I'm gonna be honest. If Helly ends up pregnant, it's gonna break my brain.

[Becca Freeman]

She's gotta.

[Olivia Mentor]

Because how does that work? I mean, like, I'm assuming it's gonna happen. But you know what? The thing is, I feel very strongly that the writers of Severance are smarter than me. And so whatever I think is gonna happen, they're already like, that's too simple. We're getting something weirder. Also, Bert, I don't know what's going on there. You know, the whole thing with Fields, his husband, and he was like, 20 years ago. And he was like, field, you idiot, like, 10 years ago. Something weird is there.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I. I saw somewhere. And I don't know that I believe this, but it would be interesting that Bert is one of the fathers of the severance procedure. Okay, where Attila. At the origin. I think the Latin origin is father. And so he is the father of the severance procedure and, you know, perhaps underwent it as some type of. Like, he experimented on himself and. Or like he was saying in the episode about his soul going to heaven as a way to offset negative effects of what he did. So I thought that was interesting. I don't know if that's true.

[Olivia Mentor]

I found that story so, like, it didn't fit Bert at all. I was like, Fields, I can tell, believes this, but I'm like, clearly you don't care about going to heaven. Like, it was just strange, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

I have a few specific questions for you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Sure.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you think Ms. Wong is a young clone of Gemma?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think she's definitely a clone or, like, a baby that they've grown into, you know, whatever. Because why else would a child be part of Severance, but the connection to Gemma, I don't know if I fully believe I've seen that theory going around a lot. And I just. They're the only two Asian characters as well, so I feel like it's almost too obvious. And then also kind of like they're the same. So, like, it just feels like a little basic that basically it would be like, we can only have one Asian character. It's the same person. You know, we can't have these two. So I'm not sure. Do you think that's the case?

[Becca Freeman]

I could see that. I have a theory, personally, my only theory that I don't think I've seen anywhere. But I'm curious if you have any thought about it. I think Milchick could also be a clone. And I think there has to be something that they're growing up at faster rates than normal humans because he is one of the only unsevered people on the floor. And I think also Cobell could be a clone.

[Olivia Mentor]

What the hell is going on with Harmony Cobell?

[Becca Freeman]

They're the only unsevered people who are on the severed floor, but clearly they're not trusted. Like, Milchick had his performance review and it's not as if he's in the inner circle. So they're definitely second class citizens in the leadership of the company. And when he was giving that lecture to the mirror about using shorter words, he ends up shortening it to grow up and he's yelling it at himself. And it was kind of the same thing he had said to Ms. Wong. And I was wondering, I was like, are you a clone too? Are you talking to yourself to grow up? Because you, you're also. It's like dog years where it's like you're also seven years old, maybe.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's fascinating. With Milchick, my mindset is mostly that I'm ready to see him absolutely go off and just tear down Lumen from the inside. Like, there would be nothing more satisfying to me than if Milchick like joined in with the Ennis and somehow brought Lumen down. I read this theory that this season is going to be like, Mark fully reintegrating or whatever and like meeting with Gemma. Then it's going to end and next season is more, more going to be about what Innies and Severance has looked like from the outside world. Because in the first season there is a, a little bit that alludes to there being protests against the process of Severance. And it's clear that like, like who was Irving on the phone with?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, that was one of my other questions for you. Who is Irving?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Working with?

[Olivia Mentor]

There's clearly an outside group that is pushing back against Severance and we really do not get many looks into it at all. So I think it's all leading up to season three being all about that, which I'm looking forward to. It's just I. I find like, visually the show. Do you ever just watch scenes and notice how everything is perfectly symmetrical?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I haven't particularly noticed that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, it's like, it's so satisfying once you see it. Because like, when they're walking down halls and then Jake said this the other day, which I had never thought about. Oh, do you think like all the footage of them walking down halls like that is like an allusion to lab rats? And I was like, oh, yeah, of course. I'd never I had never made that connection literally ever. But, yes, that makes perfect sense.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I saw somewhere that regarding the third season, I don't know if it was one of the creators or Ben Stiller basically said the first season is their baby and toddler years, the second season is their adolescence, which I think really mirrors kind of the romantic entanglements everyone is having this season. And then the third season is adulthood. So I don't know what that means in terms of kind of what we're grappling with.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Huh.

[Becca Freeman]

Wait. My last question that I would love to hear your theories on is, do you have any inkling of what they're doing on the computers with coldharbor?

[Olivia Mentor]

I've read that it has something to do with, like, the genome.

[Becca Freeman]

That makes sense to me, but it. It has to be something that even the Innies would find, like, morally reprehensible, because why else would it be presented in this way?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, but they don't tell them anything, so I guess it's like. I'm not sure. I think it's something with genetics.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's what I've read, which makes sense to me. For a while, I just thought it was nothing, and then I realized everything on Severance means something. I love going on Reddit because people take screenshots of, like, the small moments. So, for example, in the episode where they're doing the Orbo and Irving looks at a computer and it has, like, all the letters, so I didn't even notice this, but it, like, forms a face at one point.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And it's like the face of. I think it's heli or someone. And then all the letters also spell Egan, which I didn't notice. So there's all these little tiny things that are just very satisfying. I don't post or moderate the Reddit, but I am lurking a lot, and people are hilarious and smart.

[Becca Freeman]

I can't wait to watch tonight's episode.

[Olivia Mentor]

Me either. I think last episode was really, like, a setup episode, and this episode is gonna be something big. Also, I think Harmony comes back this episode, because where has she been? What is she doing?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, she's been very absent.

[Olivia Mentor]

And what's with the breathing? I have, like, so many ques. Who do you have the most questions about?

[Becca Freeman]

Irving, probably.

[Olivia Mentor]

Really? That's a. That's a good one. I think I'm on Harmony, but yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to. To seeing what happens. The Annie's and the Outies.

[Becca Freeman]

That concludes our things. Let's get into some end matter.

[Olivia Mentor]

Olivia, What Are you upset?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, we both have a clothing thing. What is your thing? What is your obsession?

[Olivia Mentor]

You know, sometimes when you're looking at Target and they just have random one off items that are on clearance that I think it's like people return stuff to the store and then I don't. They just put it out. Anyway, I found these jeans on clearance for like, no money. And they're the brand Future Collective and they're barrel jeans, which I've been hesitant to try because I was like, no, no chance. Those look good. Me. And I don't know how good they look, but like, gosh, they are comfortable and I. I really enjoyed them so much. So, yeah, I. I got a pair of black barrel jeans. I just, I really like them. They're comfy. I'm in my big pants era. I really am into some big pants.

[Becca Freeman]

Have you worn them on your Instagram yet? These jeans?

[Olivia Mentor]

Just once. They're not like, they're kind of more subtle. Barrel jeans.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

I wore them like a striped sweater when I was in New Orleans and some Converse. I'm not like, I feel like there's a cartoon cowboy that I'm picturing that wears similar pants.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Anyway, I was saying I'm not that guy.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you not use somebody, Sam? That's the only cartoon cowboy I can think of.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's it. But I like them.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

What is your obsession?

[Becca Freeman]

So I got these light blue Vori joggers and I never tried anything from Vuori before, but one of my friends who stayed with me the other weekend brought these. And I don't know if this is how it's like in your friend group, but in mine, it's like, once somebody gets something and is obsessed with it, everyone gets it. And so she had these joggers and they're just such a unique color. Like, it's a sky blue color that I've never seen for sweats. And I really liked it. And so I got them and I really like these. I think these are a totally different use case than the Cozy Earth joggers. Because what I like about the Cozy Earth joggers is that they're thick and they maintain their shape and like wearing them in public, on a plane, for instance, like, I wouldn't feel self conscious versus these are very thin and soft. So these are definitely more home comfy sweats than I feel like my Cozy Earth ones are running errands outside of the house, but also comfortable to lounge in sweats. But I'm very Obsessed with them. Wait, I'll. I'm wearing them now. I'll stand up so you can see them. Can I get far enough away?

[Olivia Mentor]

Cute. Very nice color. Everyone loves Fiori joggers. I wrote a freelance article about them at some point in my past and people just love them.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'd never tried them before, but I. I'm very into these.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good. Love a good sweatpant.

[Becca Freeman]

Seriously, what have you read? Oh, you go.

[Olivia Mentor]

We keep doing this. I know. I read Bittersweet by Hattie Williams, which comes out in July. This is an author from the UK and it is a story about a 24 year old publicist at a publishing house who falls in love with a super famous author that she works with.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm already. I'm already sold.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well. Oh, okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Unsold. Apparently, based on Olivia's facial reaction, this.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can pretty confidently say was not for me. But it's like I read the whole thing. I enjoyed it. It was just like I wanted more from it personally, but I'm probably just not the target audience because this got like a huge deal. Auctions all over the world. Like it's. It seems like a very big deal book. I just. I don't know. It. It was very British. Does that make sense?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. And I love books that are very British.

[Olivia Mentor]

I do too. Usually it just. For me, I wanted like more. It has a very sort of cold feel to it, which I think might be because the main character is really going through like a very intense depression for a lot of the book. So I think that was a choice on the part of the author that may be really effective for some people that just didn't quite click with me. I still want to encourage everyone to read this though, because I really want to hear people's thoughts. And like I said, it's had a lot of buzz. So it might just be that I didn't connect with it for some reason. But like on paper, this concept 100% I'm obsessed with.

[Becca Freeman]

Just requested it on Netgalley because even though you're actively trying to unsell me, I'm. The more you say, the more I'm sold.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I really do think this could just be like a me thing. Or maybe, I don't know, I'm just like. I was kind of confused by it because I like expected to just be head over heels for it. Even the COVID I really loved. But again, I think it's worth checking out. Keeping on your radar 100%. Tell me what you think. I will read anything in its Entirety set in the publishing industry. So that's. That comes out mid July, I think, or early, I can't remember. What have you read?

[Becca Freeman]

I read two books as I was whining last episode that what I really wanted to read was Deep End by Ali Hazelwood, which I kept hearing about. So I did read that. Candy loved it. Read it so quickly. So this is about. It's set in college. It's about a female diver and a male swimmer who enter into a dominant, submissive sexual relationship. What I liked about it, similar to the favorites, which I feel like has been a big book this year and that deals with like the micro niche world of figure skating, this is about diving. So I really liked the weird niche subculture of it all. It's very hot. It's very sexy. I thought that this was the most different of Ali Hazelwood's book outside of Bride, which obviously deals with a vampire and a werewolf. But one of the biggest critiques against Ali Hazelwood is that all of her books are the same, which I don't fully disagree with. It's usually set in academia and science and kind of the power dynamic is the same. It's usually a more successful dominant man and a kind of woman with very low self confidence, sometimes on the autism spectrum, who does not understand that the man is completely gone for her. And this one, because it was set in college and just the dynamics were slightly different, it felt fresher to me if I pull out. And on the macro, I somewhat dislike that all of her books deal with these kind of like all of the women characters are always so down on themselves and so like lack confidence, even though they are smart, usually genius level smart people. And so I don't love that about her books. I think it's realistic and I think it's written well. But I. I would like to read about stronger women. But even still, I devoured this.

[Olivia Mentor]

Fun.

[Becca Freeman]

Also her steamiest, I think, so far.

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. I'm imagining a lot of pool scenes or gym shower scenes.

[Becca Freeman]

No, no.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Not really.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is why I don't remember.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, there are a lot of pool scenes in terms of actual swimming and diving competitions, but.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay. Not like sexy. Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

No. And then I also am like 80% done with. I'm not quite done with this book called I Leave it up to youo by Jin Woo Chong. And this comes out in early March. It might come out this week. And this is about a man who wakes up from a coma after two years. He's 30, so generally like young man he wakes up from a coma and realizes that kind of the whole world has moved on without him. And so his boyfriend has left him and, you know, he doesn't have his job, he doesn't have his apartment. Kind of like life has moved on. And so he ends up moving back home with his parents who live in Fort Lee, New Jersey, which is a very Korean enclave of New Jersey. And his dad runs a sushi restaurant. And so he ends up working in a sushi restaurant. And it's a very like quirky family type novel. I'm really enjoying it. It is slightly less plotty than I would like, but I think just like the setup of it is so different, but I'm really enjoying it. And also the way that all the characters are written in the family, like the side characters are just so quirky and unique. So it's definitely on the more literary side. But if you like family stories and especially like offbeat family stories, I think you'll like this.

[Olivia Mentor]

The premise is great.

[Becca Freeman]

It is. And the COVID is great too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, tell the people about our March book club pick.

[Becca Freeman]

Yes. I'm so excited. So our March book club pick is Deep Cuts by Holly Brickley. It is a literary romance set in the early 2000s in the indie music scene. So it is about these two college students who meet and bond over their shared love of music and then it follows them for the next, I want to say, eight years through their post college lives and kind of they're coming in and out of each other's lives. To oversimplify it, I will quote friend of the pod, Erika Cerulo, who called it indie sleaze. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. I'm really excited to talk about this with everyone and especially if you're somebody who has that like music and I think most of us are people that like music has played an important role in your life. I think this is extra special. And also I am doing an event with Holly Brickley at the Barnes and Noble on the Upper east side on March 6. So Thursday when this comes out tomorrow. So if you're in New York, you don't need a ticket, you don't need to RSVP. Come join us. It's at 6pm and I'm very excited to talk to her. And in case you've never been to one of these types of events, it's always spoiler free. So we're not going to spoil anything. But I think it's always interesting to hear an author speak alongside kind of reading the book in a discussion because you get to hear some of, like the behind the scenes and why it was meaningful to them. So come hang out with us.

[Olivia Mentor]

If you want to talk to us about any of this, you can join us in the Geneva group, which is.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh yeah, should we explain? There was a Facebook thread last week that people didn't know what Geneva was. It's an app and it's basically Slack not for work. So there's all different chat rooms and so you can join rooms that are interesting to you. So there's all sorts of local rooms if you want to meet up with or start a book club with people in your area. There's also rooms for different genres. There's a room called Melon Party, which is severance spoilers, you know. So it's basically just like a way to tap into the community but not to have to see everything that isn't applicable to you, if that makes sense.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. It's one of my favorite things. It's really the only social media app I keep on my phone.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, it's like a big group chat, kind of.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's lovely. We also do like Oscars chats, sometimes Grammys chats. Anyway, join us in Geneva or you can join us in the Facebook group under Batonpaper Podcast. We're also on Instagram @Batonpaper Podcast. I am on Instagram oliviamentor and everywhere else at oliviamentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is@beccafreeman substack.com and I would love for you to subscribe and we will see you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.