Navessa Allen on writing Spicy Romance

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Navessa Allen on Writing Spicy Romance"

Podcast Information

• Title: Bad On Paper
• Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
• Episode: Navessa Allen on Writing Spicy Romance
• Release Date: July 16, 2025
• Description: Join Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter every Wednesday for a dose of books and banter, along with interviews with women who inspire us.

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Bad On Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter sit down with New York Times bestselling author Navessa Allen. Navessa discusses her hit book Lights Out, which has captivated readers and secured a place on the bestseller list for an impressive 35 weeks. The conversation delves into Navessa’s unique approach to writing spicy and dark romance, her unconventional publishing journey, and the challenges of handling online negativity as an author.

Navessa's Publishing Journey

Navessa Allen shares her diverse background, highlighting how her varied experiences have influenced her writing career. From military service to bartending in the Caribbean and building flight simulators for the Navy, Navessa has always maintained her passion for writing despite her unconventional career path.

Navessa Allen [14:30]: “I've always been a writer... I never stopped. I was always writing stories.”

Navessa began her foray into publishing in 2014, focusing on historical romance. Dissatisfied with the prevailing heteronormative themes, she sought to create more inclusive and spicy narratives. Her initial work involved self-publishing chapters on Goodreads, which helped her build a dedicated reader base.

However, by 2022-2023, Navessa faced a low point, contemplating quitting due to a lack of success and doubts about her career path. This changed dramatically when a TikTok video she posted went viral, garnering over 100,000 views and tens of thousands of comments urging her to write her novel. This surge in interest led to the self-publication of Lights Out in March 2024, which quickly soared in popularity, selling tens of thousands of copies within two months.

Navessa Allen [16:00]: “I posted a video saying exactly that... it went viral for me at the time.”

Seeking professional representation, Navessa reached out to her online network for an agent and soon signed with Jill Mar from SDLA. With her new agency, she partnered with Xando, propelling Lights Out onto the New York Times bestseller list by November 2024, a rare feat given its release in August.

Navessa Allen [32:45]: “Lights out has been on the New York Times bestseller list for 35 weeks.”

Defining Dark Romance

The discussion shifts to the dark romance genre, with Navessa providing a clear definition:

Navessa Allen [21:07]: “Dark romance borders on the taboo... It’s stuff that make most people uncomfortable.”

According to Navessa, dark romance often features explicit spice and disturbing themes such as stalking, past traumas, and elements traditionally reserved for horror or thriller genres. These aspects introduce a level of taboo and discomfort that differentiates dark romance from more conventional romance narratives.

Writing Spice in Dark Romance

Navessa elaborates on her strategic approach to integrating spicy scenes into her novels. She likens the use of spice to costume design in movies, serving as a subtle yet integral element that reflects character development and relationship dynamics.

Navessa Allen [23:59]: “Spice is another way to show character arcs... it’s critical.”

In Lights Out, spicy scenes are meticulously crafted to demonstrate the gradual buildup of trust and control between the characters. Navessa emphasizes that spice is not gratuitous but essential for advancing the narrative and deepening the emotional connection between protagonists.

Navessa Allen [22:10]: “I write the whole scene all the way through... it's very integral to the story.”

Navessa’s process involves writing entire scenes first, followed by rigorous editing to ensure they are both technically sound and emotionally engaging. This method allows her to maintain the intensity of the scenes while avoiding repetition and ensuring variety in her language.

Navigating Online Negativity

With her rise to fame, Navessa has also encountered significant online negativity and harassment, leading her to adopt protective measures for her mental health.

Navessa Allen [37:28]: “Social media is not good for my mental health, full stop.”

Navessa discusses strategies such as delegating social media interactions to her husband, using password-protected devices, and having a personal assistant monitor her comments. These steps help her shield herself from harmful feedback while allowing her to maintain a presence online without exposing herself to undue stress.

Navessa Allen [35:17]: “I write the stories that I wanna write... I don’t write for anybody but myself.”

Despite facing criticism and negative comments, Navessa remains steadfast in her commitment to writing the stories she believes are missing in the market. She emphasizes that educational attempts to explain the merits of dark romance often fall on deaf ears, leading her to limit her online interactions and focus on her well-being.

Upcoming Works and Future Projects

Navessa provides insights into her upcoming projects, including her latest book Caught Up, which continues the Lights Out universe but can also stand alone. She hints at a third book, promising it will be even spicier and exploring new dynamics within the universe.

Navessa Allen [46:38]: “Book three is done... it's not as spicy as book three... but it ups the ante in other ways.”

In addition to continuing her current series, Navessa expresses interest in exploring new genres such as romantasy, aiming to diversify her storytelling while maintaining her unique voice and thematic focus.

Recommendations and Final Thoughts

Before concluding, Navessa recommends fellow authors and books for listeners interested in high spice and dark romance, including Carrie Lake, Colette Rhodes, Lee Rivers, and Tessa Bailey. She also shares her preferred platforms for updates, noting her presence on Instagram and Booktok, and highlights her Patreon for exclusive content.

Navessa Allen [52:33]: “Problematic Summer by Ali Hazelwood. So everyone loves it.”

Navessa’s passion for writing and her dedication to creating meaningful and engaging stories shine throughout the conversation, offering valuable insights for both aspiring writers and passionate readers.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Navessa Allen [14:30]: “I've always been a writer... I never stopped. I was always writing stories.”
• Navessa Allen [21:07]: “Dark romance borders on the taboo... It’s stuff that make most people uncomfortable.”
• Navessa Allen [22:10]: “I write the whole scene all the way through... it's very integral to the story.”
• Navessa Allen [23:59]: “Spice is another way to show character arcs... it’s critical.”
• Navessa Allen [35:17]: “I write the stories that I wanna write... I don’t write for anybody but myself.”
• Navessa Allen [37:28]: “Social media is not good for my mental health, full stop.”
• Navessa Allen [46:38]: “Book three is done... it's not as spicy as book three... but it ups the ante in other ways.”
• Navessa Allen [52:33]: “Problematic Summer by Ali Hazelwood. So everyone loves it.”

Conclusion

This episode of Bad On Paper offers a deep dive into Navessa Allen’s approach to writing spicy and dark romance, her resilience in the publishing industry, and her methods for maintaining mental health amidst fame. Navessa’s insights into character development, genre definition, and the importance of consent provide valuable lessons for writers and a better understanding for readers. Her journey from contemplating quitting to becoming a bestselling author serves as an inspiring testament to passion and perseverance in the literary world.

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Follow Navessa Allen:

• Instagram: @NavessaAllen
• Booktok: @NavessaAllen
• Patreon: Navessa Allen on Patreon

Join the Conversation:

• Book Club: Reading Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid this month
• Social Media: Follow the hosts on Instagram @BatonPaperPodcast and join their community on Facebook and Geneva group.

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This summary captures the essence of Navessa Allen's interview, highlighting her career path, defining dark romance, her writing process, and the impact of her success on her personal life, all while incorporating notable quotes with corresponding timestamps for reference.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And today we are doing something that I have wanted to do for, for actual years. And we are talking to a very spicy book author. Today we're joined by Nevesa Allen, whose book Lights out has been on the New York Times bestseller list for 35 weeks. And we just recorded the interview and it's so good. I'm very excited for you to hear our chat.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I learned so much. Basically, think about this book and then think about the most famous book you've heard of in the past year. It's probably selling the same amount of copies. That is how big this book is. And I discovered so much.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, maybe not the safest if you have children in the car. Just an FYI.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Good call.

[Becca Freeman]

Before we get into the interview, what's your high?

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that last week I finally launched the reading and writing retreat that I have been planning all of this year. I have been thinking about it for almost two years now. I've talked about it on here a bunch and I did like a soft launch to my paid substack subscribers, sold out all of those spots, then basically contacted the property and was like, can we also add this other cabin? And then added more spots and then sold out those. So I didn't really know what to expect. I was very nervous. There was like a lot on the line for me in terms of, you know, I put down all the deposits and planned all this stuff and put in so much money and people just seemed so excited and it made me excited and I'm looking forward to it so much. It's going to be the perfect fall few days, I think. And yeah, I'm just really proud of myself because I've had this idea for a long time and I wasn't sure how to do any of it and I figured it out and that feels really good, you know, that's amazing.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm so happy for you. You're now a soon to be retreat magnate, a reading and writing tycoon.

[Olivia Mentor]

That makes me feel like a Monopoly character.

[Becca Freeman]

It does. That's exactly what I'm picturing.

[Olivia Mentor]

I kind of like it, but thanks. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. And I can't wait. Hopefully see some bound paper listeners there.

[Becca Freeman]

So exciting.

[Olivia Mentor]

What's your high?

[Becca Freeman]

You would never believe it, but I wound up at the Margaritaville Hotel in Times Square and somehow it has ended up being my highest. So last Friday, my friend Julie, who's one of My friends from college and her husband and her two kids were visiting New York and they were staying at Margaritaville because they were looking for a hotel that had a kid friendly pool and was centrally located. And we had had lunch earlier that afternoon and we split up after lunch and I was going to the Met Museum because I wanted to see the Sargent in Paris exhibit and, and she was taking her kids to the Central Park Zoo and she was like, but you should come back to the hotel after to swim. And it was hot out. And I was like, yeah, that does sound fun. I don't have anything else going on. So I ended up going. We had so much fun. Made a big fan out of her five year old by playing a game I called washing machine where I just basically spun him around by a pool noodle in the pool. It was a big hit. It was so fun. Just being at a pool in New York City is great. It was exactly what you would expect. The drinks were like pre mixed frozen drinks. It was like very cheesy music. I was having a great time.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds excellent.

[Becca Freeman]

I have a commemorative souvenir photo now on my fridge.

[Olivia Mentor]

Did you order a margarita?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I had something that was like, I don't know, it tasted like a strawberry banana smoothie with rum in it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, it was delicious. That sounds great. And washing machine sounds like a blast of your five big blast. I love a pool noodle, you know? Yeah, I really do.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, we had some nachos, it was great.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, nice. Can you consume like the nachos poolside or are there rules about that? I haven't been to like a hotel pool in a while, but you could. I want to eat nachos.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know if you can consume them in the pool but like at a ledge. Oh, I don't, I don't know. We didn't test that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, no one likes, you know, just a soggy jalapeno I don't want in the pool. So this. You order beef nachos usually. Because I usually go for chicken, but.

[Becca Freeman]

That was the only option.

[Olivia Mentor]

It was, it was what?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's get it together Margaritaville. No, I'm. That sounds great.

[Becca Freeman]

It was great.

[Olivia Mentor]

It does.

[Becca Freeman]

It was fun actually. We went up to the pool is on the sixth floor and we went up to their rooftop bar and honestly it was like unironically great. Like the view was really, really good. It was on the 32nd floor and it had like a beautiful view facing south and you could see both rivers and then the drinks were like, pretty good. I was like, I would come here again.

[Olivia Mentor]

You know, I think I've seen that they've done some stuff with influencers or something. I was like, I swear I've heard people saying similar things about the Margaritaville pool slash hotel in New York City. And it must be that I've heard.

[Becca Freeman]

People talk about the rooftop bar. And I've always been so poo poo. My friend Casey was like, we should go here before a Broadway show one time. And I was like, I don't think so, but. And again, like, I don't love Times Square. I wouldn't go for any old reason. But, like, if I happened to be going to a Broadway show or be in that neighborhood, like, I was like, it was great and it wasn't super expensive. Like, the drinks were $20, which for a New York City rooftop bar is basically bargain basement pricing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, yeah. And in Times Square, right, You know. Well, what's your low?

[Becca Freeman]

So my low is that I was supposed to get feedback on the most recent draft of my book on July 2, and it ended up getting delayed and now I'm not getting it until this Friday. And totally understandable. Editors are very busy. Like, nothing against my editor or anything like that, but I was all ready to receive it to jump into work mode. I have no travel plans basically in July, and I was just like, really ready to get into a new draft. And then the change of plans has really knocked me for one. And I just have all this displaced energy, like I was ready to be productive. And so instead I've just kind of like been running at walls like a bird running into the screen door. I just, I really stressed myself out. And then also I'm stressed about how this now plays with. I have so much travel in August and I was kind of planning to wrap up the draft by like mid August. And now I don't know if that's possible. I don't know. I'm just stressed.

[Olivia Mentor]

I hate that it really always throws me through such a loop when I'm expecting something related to a book to happen on a certain day. And then even though I would say probably 75% of the time, things get moved or delayed or you have to wait every time I'm like, oh, well, I'm going to be useless until this next deadline, you know, like every time it throws me emotionally and I do not know why, because I should be fully prepared.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. Same.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm sorry.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, just as somebody who really likes plans and schedules and then I can Kind of like, plan downstream what's gonna happen? And then it gets ruined. And my Virgo brain is like, screaming, I get it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I get it. Well, fingers crossed. It's great feedback and your August is manageable.

[Becca Freeman]

Fingers crossed. What about you? What is your low?

[Olivia Mentor]

I have quite a sad low, actually. And that's that. So I think I've talked about the poet Andrea Gibson on here before, and I have read their work. I think I first saw their work when I was a teenager on Tumblr in high school, and I was just so moved by it. And then in college, I saw them perform at UF, and I think there was maybe 30 of us there or something. And then I sort of followed their career all these years, and they just write the most beautiful, you know, moving poems about what it means to be alive and to love people who are different than you. And anyway, they've been sick and they passed away yesterday, and they just. Their wife just posted about it today. And I've never cried for, like, someone I didn't know passing away, you know, like. Or a celebrity of any kind. And I just was brought to my knees. It was so deeply upsetting to me. And it's like. And the post is so beautiful. I encourage anyone to go read Andrea Gibson's work, by the way, but this post from their wife that commemorated Andrea's life and stuff. Oh, my God, the last two slides in that Instagram carousel. I. I was weeping like, I was just a. A mess of a human. And I'm so happy that they impacted so many people and they had such a full, beautiful life, but it just made me so sad. Oh, it just. Sometimes it just feels like the best people, you know, end up going too soon. But anyway, may this be an excuse for all of you to go check out Andrea Gibson's poetry on YouTube. Or. They had a lovely substack. It's obviously still up.

[Becca Freeman]

And anyway, I'm unfamiliar. I will have to go check some of it out. Do you have a specific poem or work that is like, oh, gosh, you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Know, I was just reading one today from. I think it was from 2023. Or it's kind of like an essay poem called Love Letter from the Afterlife, which is, of course, very fitting, and it was just so beautiful. And it's about how the people we lose who we love never really leave us. And. Ugh, there's a recording of them reading it on substack. We can link it in the show notes. But, yeah, just a bummer, man. Sorry to bring the mood down, but it really, really made me sad.

[Becca Freeman]

I understand. I'm excited to check out specifically that poem and kind of more broadly. And we'll go into it knowing that I will probably end up wrecking myself too.

[Olivia Mentor]

But yes, proceed with caution.

[Becca Freeman]

Worth it for the beauty.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, exactly. Well, let's take a quick ad break and then get into this interview. This episode is sponsored by Quint. With summer officially in full swing, I feel that familiar urge to refresh my closet lately. But I am really not trying to waste money on pieces that I will only wear once or just for the season. And that is where Quint comes in. Their clothes are timeless, luxurious, look elevated, and the quality is just way beyond what you would expect for the price. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that just clicks.

[Becca Freeman]

I will have you know that I'm actually wearing a Quince tank top right now. I just went and put it on because we were recording the interview and I was in my office and it was 8 million degrees and I sweat through my dress and I wanted to put on a tank top. And this one has become one of my favorites. It's their cotton modal scoop neck tank tops. They're just like very easy, breezy, not too clingy. That wasn't even scripted in the ad. I just wanted you to know. But when you think quints, think 100% European linen tops starting at $30. Washable silk dresses and skirts and soft cotton sweaters. Versatile warm weather pieces you'll reach for again and again. And the best part is that everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes.

[Olivia Mentor]

I just ordered and received a strapless linen maxi dress from Quince, which is really cute and it has this like kind of thin stripe. It's like light blue. It's very chic, I think. And it was exactly the right item for a sticky, humid summer day where I wanted to be cool and not overly hot, but also look good and put together. I felt comfortable and effortlessly stylish wearing it. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quint.combop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C.combop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.combop.

[Becca Freeman]

We are so excited to have Nessa Allen with us, who is the New York Times bestselling author of Lights out and her newest book in that series, Caught Up. She lives on the shores of the Chesapeake Bay with her husband and their spoiled cats.

[Nevesa Allen]

Welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

[Becca Freeman]

We are so excited about this. I loved Lights out, and I've been wanting to talk to a spicy author for forever on the podcast. So we have lots of questions for you.

[Nevesa Allen]

Oh, ask them. I'm talkative. I'm chatty.

[Olivia Mentor]

Can you just start by walking us through your publishing journey? Because I think it's a little bit different than people might expect and I don't think you started out writing books in your career. So tell us, from the beginning to being a New York Times bestseller, what has that journey been like?

[Nevesa Allen]

Well, I've always been a writer. I've always been a writer, no matter what else I'm doing in my life. I was in the military. I bartended in the Caribbean. I built flight simulators for the Navy. I've done a lot of things, but I've always been writing throughout that. I never stopped. I was always writing stories. They were just for myself or my friends, but it was something that I came back to over and over and over again. And in 2014, I was addicted to historical romance. And one of the things that I had noticed in reading so many was that all of the situationships, romances in general were very heteronormative. And so I was like. And they were not spicy enough for me. So I was like. And my friends had similar opinions. And so I was like, I'm going to write an mfm super spicy historical romance. And I actually put it chapter by chapter into Goodreads of all places. Had these group chats and I was in there with, yes, it's so fun.

[Olivia Mentor]

I didn't even know you could do this.

[Nevesa Allen]

No, this was in like 2014. I had been on the website, like since Inception, and so all of myself, my review friends, we were all in there. And I would just like publish chapters to this group thread, like once every couple of days. I was writing them late into the night after work, and that was the first story that I, like, let other people read. And it just kind of went from there. I just continued to write. I published several more indie books. I hit kind of a Low Point in 2022, 2023, where I was like, maybe publishing is not for me. Maybe I just go back to writing books for myself because I hadn't had any success and I wasn't really putting the effort in to try to make it a thing, to really pursue it as a career. Because my fear was it wouldn't be fun anymore and it wouldn't be for me, it would be for everybody else. And my husband was like, you shouldn't give up, because just because you're not having that success doesn't mean that it can't still be for you. And then one night, I was just kind of. October 2023, mass talk was coming back into the sphere of things on social media. And I was up late scrolling as you do, and I just ended up seeing all of these. You know, the algorithm is a work of art sometimes. And I would just see one video after another. And I was reading through the comments on some of these videos and people were begging these creators, these masked creators to like break into their houses and do all these things with them. And I was like, I'm a true crime addict. So I was like, you're gonna get murdered. Like, you're gonna die. You're gonna get murdered. He's gonna chop you up. We'll never find your body. This is the last sign of you anybody's ever gonna see. But then my brain was like, but what? What if he did it? Like, what if it ended really well instead? And so that's how the concept of lights out was born. I posted a video saying exactly that. It was just a stitch with a masquerader. And I was like, hear me out, it's a romance novel. And I just threw all these names out there. I was like, josh and Tyler and Allie. And so I got a little bit stuck into those names. People are very mad at me about the whole J name with Josh. I'm very sorry. I did it to myself. And yeah, so that was in October. And it was a throwaway idea again, I had no success, no following. I think I had 120 followers total on TikTok at the time. And like, it went viral for me at the time. So like a hundred thousand people saw it. Tens of thousands of people have commented, we're like, write this book. We're begging you to do it. And so I did it. I started writing the book and kind of documenting the whole journey. If you scroll back in my feed, you can find all those videos where I'm like, hey, chapter five is up. And I started posting them to my website for free for people to read as I wrote it. And it just started gaining momentum from there. And so I self published it in March of 2024 and it hit number one like almost immediately. Sold Tens of thousands of copies in the first two months. And then I reached out online on threads and was like, hey, I'm getting all these offers for, like, foreign rights deals. Does anybody know of an agent that is looking? Because I had. This is way past my pay grade. I have no idea what I'm doing. And I. I think I need an adult. And my agent, Jill Mar from sdla, an incredible agency, and she is an incredible agent. I cannot. I still to this day cannot believe how lucky I got that. She reached out, was like, hey, I'd love to represent you. And it went from there. We just kind of pitched from there. We had several meetings. We ended up signing with Xando, and the rest is kind of history, you know, I think it has slow release, which is funny, too. Like, it released in August and then didn't make the New York Times list until November, which is not normal. Usually it's the opposite. You make it early and then you just fall immediately off. But it didn't make it until two months later, and it's just gone since then. It's not. It's so funny because I almost quit.

[Becca Freeman]

I have about 17 million more questions based on that story. This story is, like, not the standard publishing story for anyone listening who is like, sure, okay, yeah. Everything about that is wild. First, I want to talk about writing lights out. Because if I'm not mistaken, your book prior to this one, or at least the last one you published, was a biker romance. So maybe some whiffs of dark romance, but from the reviews, I'm getting more alpha bad boy. I shouldn't fall for more than any kind of, like, real taboo. Is that right?

[Nevesa Allen]

Yeah. I mean, the ending is kind of leans more into the world of darkness. I would say that's like the lightest level of dark romance you can have.

[Becca Freeman]

Were you reading a lot of dark romance already? Were you familiar with this genre? Or were you just kind of like, inventing this in your head alongside it becoming popular on TikTok?

[Nevesa Allen]

So. So I. And this is really funny because one of my very good friends is a fellow very dark romance writer, and she and I do not read dark romance that often. One out of every, like, maybe 25 books I read is dark romance because I personally have a lot of triggers. So I struggle with some of the really heavy ones. So I am like, dip my toes in. I have to very extensively read the trigger warnings, make sure none of that. And, like, I will hard dnf a book if something's in there that I was not expecting. I Find it very. Not triggering but very upsetting sometimes. And so I have to be careful. One of my friends is obsessed with dark romance. She reads them all and she's kind of like my sole recommender because she knows my taste so well. And she'll be like, oh, you have to read this one. You'll absolutely love it, I swear. And so I just. Anything I read is basically comes from her recommendations at this point. But no, a lot of like the darkness in Lights out came from. My true crime addiction came from. I read a memoir of the child of a serial killer. And in it they were asking themselves a lot of the questions that Josh did. And I found the psychology of that so fascinating. Everything about the psychology of human brains very fascinating. And I'm a very hyper analytical person and very self introspective and I'm also empathetic. So I immediately put myself in that person's place. And I'm like, that would drive me up the wall. I would just constantly question myself. And so that's kind of how Josh was born of like, I have these dark desires, but does that mean that I'm my father?

[Becca Freeman]

Before we go any further, for anyone who's listening who is like, what the heck is dark romance? Or isn't on book talk, which I feel like is a lot of where this is happening, how would you define the dark romance genre?

[Nevesa Allen]

So dark romance to me kind of borders on the taboo a lot of the times. There's usually a lot of explicit spice. You have themes that can be disturbing for a lot of readers, including stalking. You'll have unaliving on pages. There is usually a lot of past trauma with the main characters that is deeply explored in graphic detail. It's just, it's stuff that for whatever reason is fine to write in a horror or a thriller, but if you include it at all in a romance, then it becomes taboo. So to me, dark romance is just things that make most people uncomfortable, I would say.

[Olivia Mentor]

So Becca and I have been talking about interviewing someone who writes spicy books for a long time. Because the process, to me, as someone who has written very few spicy scenes, if any, is so fascinating. And I wanted to know, how do you approach it? Do you start with that? Do you lead up to it? Do you write beginning to end? Like, how important are the spicy scenes to you?

[Nevesa Allen]

No, this is a really good question. And especially with dark romance for me, because I look at it like costume design in a movie where you're trying to show a character arc. So in the beginning of some movies you'll have the fmc and their life is chaos. And it shows in what they're wearing. Sometimes their clothes will just be all over the place. They'll look messy. And then their character arc will progress throughout the movie. And by the end, it's such a subtle thing, but you'll notice that they are dressed in a completely different way than they were in the beginning of the movie. And it's so subtle and most viewers don't really pick it up. But if you go back and watch, you can see the progression throughout the entire movie from that beginning, like, kind of frantic, frazzled person to this put together person at the end. And it's like, you know, their character arc is complete. I view Spice in. In my books in a very similar way where it is very integral to the story. Especially in a story like Lights out, where he is literally stalking the female lead. So, like, the first Spice scene, he has to be in complete control to feel safe with that person. And then you slowly see herself start to seed control scene by scene by scene, until you finally have, like, penetrative sex towards the end of the book. But it's, like, shows part of the trust buildup of their relationship and also, like, the progression of the things that they do and the progression of the control that she lets Josh have over her. It shows, like, the slow building of trust throughout their romantic journey, if that makes sense. So to me, Spice is so critical in these books because it's just another way to show character arcs and character journeys and trust levels and the romance in general. Yeah. If that makes any sense. I hope so.

[Becca Freeman]

No, it totally makes sense. It's really interesting how strategic you are about it as opposed to, like, I've heard other authors, like, I remember we asked Emily Henry about this a long, long time ago. And I don't know if this is still true of how she writes them, but she was like, I almost, like, leave it to the last minute. And it's like, TK sexy thing. And, like, comes back and, like, does it really fast so that she doesn't have to look at it too much. And it's like, it feels to me like you're saying that this is like, maybe this is the story. This is, like, you know, just as important as the dialogue or some other aspect. You're not like, TK sex scene to come. It's really in there. Yeah. I'm curious. On, like, the lighter side, is there something funny or difficult that you find about writing sex scenes? Like, I'm thinking about, like, the synonyms of trying to write sex scenes, as many sex scenes as there are in one of your books.

[Nevesa Allen]

I'll write the whole scene all the way through, do the thing that a lot of authors don't and people tell you not to do, which is self edit as you go. And I think it's because I started as a serial author where I was posting chapter by chapter, and that chapter had to be clean. And so I do that as I write. I self edit every chapter and I'll go through. I'll write the whole scene, and then I'll go through the next day. And I will. Like, the first half of my day before I write the next scene will be editing that first scene. And so I do a lot of smoothing out there. And I have a pretty good memory when it comes to writing as I'm writing a book. So I'm like, oh, you use cock, so you should use dick. And, you know, you just do stuff like that where you're like. Like, you find ways to work around using the same words over and over and over again. The worst part is, I mean, if people get hot and bothered reading a spice scene for, you know, five minutes, imagine what it feels like to be living in that spice scene for four hours. You know what I mean? Like, it can be very physically uncomfortable sometimes because you're trying to be very technical about what you're writing, but also make it hot. And you get in your head about it, and it's just a whole thing. And half the time I'm writing, I'm like, is this even hot? Like, I do that all the time. And then people will come back to me and be like, what type of brain does this? And I'm like, okay, is that a good thing or bad? I'll just. I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you. And I go at the end. At the end of my document, I'll go and I'll do a search for. For dick. For, like, all of the explicit words and be like, oh, you used it 75 times. My God. And so you go and you edit some of that.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I'm dying. I like, I love this.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's smart.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you ever get desensitized to your own sex scenes? Like, I imagine as you're editing, you're like, I've read this 75 times. This isn't hot anymore. Yeah.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yes. Oh, no. By the time I turn my final draft in to my editor and I'm done. And I'm done, done. I'm like, I never want to read that book again. I never want to look at that book again. I don't even know if it's fucking good anymore. Like, do I have a career as a writer? Should I just quit now? Should I go living on a commune like it is? Editing is the worst. There's so many great memes out there about the torture of editing. And they're all true. Like, they're all true. If I could just never edit again, I'd be so happy. But unfortunately, I'm in the wrong career field for that.

[Olivia Mentor]

We've heard a version of that. Like, am I even a writer? What is this? From so many different authors, from so many different genres. So I like that it's just a universal experience.

[Becca Freeman]

So you did such a skilled job with lights out, balancing some of these really taboo fantasies, but also making sure that it felt consensual to both the love interest in the book, but also to the reader. Like, at no point was I like, is this okay? Like, you know that they wanted it. And I also love that you really balanced the heavier elements of the book with Josh having this kind of, like, goofball personality. So I'm curious, how did you think about negotiating the light and darkness while navigating such taboo waters?

[Nevesa Allen]

Yeah, that was kind of the whole driving force of me writing an actual dark romance. I wanted it to be an intro into the genre so it wouldn't be anything too, too heavy, but it would be kind of like, you know, it's not the entree, but it's definitely the appetizer. So, like, if you dip your toes into the water and you're like, ooh, I don't hate this. Maybe dark romance might be a thing I like because a lot of people hear so much about dark romance, but they're too scared to kind of jump in. And I felt like it's. It's like a gateway dark romance to just lead you into the deeper waters. But the humor especially was born from. Whenever I do read dark romance, I am a very humor driven person. I use humor in my real life to break awkward moments, to fill gaps, to make somebody feel better. Like, I have always, always, always been the comic relief in my family. And my husband is very funny too. Like, Josh's needling sense of humor, like, the nonstop, just pecking at someone, but in a sweet, funny way is absolutely him. And so I would read these dark books and read these, like, horrific scenes and just get out of them and be like. I feel like that would have been a great point to crack a joke and, like, Lighten the mood. Because one of the reasons that I don't read so heavily in the genre is because it can be very heavy sometimes. Not that. I mean, you come out of these books and you feel so good afterwards because you've seen all this growth and you've seen, you know, the characters getting together and getting over their shit and, like, finding a way to be together, even if they're deeply problematic and deeply hurt humans. But the journey to get to that point can be heavy. And so I'm always looking for the lightness, like, the comedic relief, that moment of levity, of calmness, of, like, still waters in the middle of a raging torrent. And I don't often see that. And so I was like, what if they kill someone? And then I make a joke about it? And I was talking this through with my husband and telling him some of the scenes that I had envisioned because stuff just kind of pops fully formed into my brain. And he was like, I feel like I shouldn't have laughed at that and I'm going to hell. And I'm like, oh, that's how I want readers to feel like when they're done reading this book. That was the main driver for making it funny is just to kind of explore some of these heavy themes, but in a way that doesn't leave you feeling bogged down.

[Becca Freeman]

I think you definitely achieved that. I would not say that I am a scholar of the dark romance genre by any means, but I think that's one of the reasons why this worked for me is because it. I mean, both how skillfully consent was navigated, but then also that it. It was funny and it wasn't all dark.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yeah. And consent's a big thing for me. One of my triggers is non con. Can't do it. And so I wanted to make it really clear throughout this story, like, this is fucked up. And in the real world, you know, you end up in a body bag somewhere. But is if we're treating this as a fantasy, because a lot of these books are, you know, then let's make it clear that it is at least consensual.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm still thinking about how you said as recently as 20. 23.

[Nevesa Allen]

23, yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

That it's so recently to go from that to where you are now is. It's just. It blows my mind how much things can change in such a short period of time. And I'm wondering with lights out, was there a specific moment where you realized, like, oh, this is a huge deal.

[Nevesa Allen]

Right away moment one. The second the story popped into my head. I knew it had potential. It like was birthed fully formed into my head. I saw almost every single scene. I knew how it was going to end. There is only one thing I changed and I can't get into it because it's huge spoilers, but it was like a kind of a critical piece that didn't feel like it fit well for the characters. But I remember telling my husband in like November when I was like five chapters into writing it and posting it, and I'm watching my stats go up and I'm watching all my engagement go up and people just screaming about how much they loved it and like, loved Josh and Allie and Fred immediately. And I told him, I was like, I think this is going to change our lives. I think this book is going to change our lives. And he didn't doubt me, but he had no way to conceptualize that. God knows I didn't. Like, I thought it was going to change our lives. August 2024 and that was it. And I'd have some like, midline trad pub success and I would actually have another chance to write a bigger book and we could like grow from there. I did not think it would go to space, you know, I did not. I could never have. And there's so much stuff going on in the background that is so crazy and I can't talk about it. Like I won't be able to talk about it for months, sometimes years. But this has been the most mind boggling shift in my trajectory of my career that I could ever imagine. From almost quitting to this has been a very humbling and sometimes terrifying and just incredible journey that I would not trade for anything.

[Becca Freeman]

And just for listeners who maybe if they're not aware, I just checked this morning to see what we're up to here. Lights out has been on the New York Times bestseller list for 35 weeks.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. I just got chills.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. And then Caught up, which just came out in June, debuted at number one on the New York Times bestseller list and has been on it every consecutive week since. So, like, this is wild. And I, yeah, I feel like, you know, it's maybe not, I guess it is now like it is the book you're seeing on the front table at bookstores. But like I could see you being a reader and maybe like not having heard of this because dark romance is kind of. It's like, I feel like so much of it is happening on the Internet.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yes, yes, I think that's fair. I think there are books that are starting to cross over. And again, that's a big driver in why I wrote Lights Out. So it could be more commercially marketable, more easily digestible for people who are coming from either a thriller or mystery or just contemporary romance or. I've had people who said, I never read anything but fantasy, but my friend forced me to read this, and, oh, my God, am I a dark romance girly now? And it's just, you know, it's one of those things where I'm like, the more people we can, like, bring into the genre, the better, because I feel like it is still so stigmatized and judged. And people just love to have opinions on it on the Internet without really giving it a chance or digesting it themselves and finding what they like, what they don't like, what works for them. I mean, there's some books that even for me, I say I have a big trigger list, and I do. But there's some books that I've read a couple of my triggers, but they were done so well or handled so well that I ended up absolutely like Master of Salt and Bones by Carrie Lake. That book. I should not have loved that book as much as I do, but it's probably my favorite dark romance and, like, pretty much anything Lee Rivers writes, like, she writes darker than I do, but, like, the way she does it. I just love all of her books. So it's one of those things where you can't really judge it until you dip your toes in and you see what it's all about.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, I want to talk more about something you just said about kind of the negativity aspect. I feel like what's come through my feeds has mostly been praise, and some of it is sometimes grudging. And I'm wondering if that bothers you of. Like, I can't believe I liked this as much as I did, but has there also been pushback or even. I can imagine people who are scandalized but haven't even read it. And has that, like, oh, yeah, changed how you show up on the Internet as an author or what you consume about your own work?

[Nevesa Allen]

Yes, it definitely has. It doesn't really impact my writing. I would say, like, it doesn't change the stories I'm gonna write. I don't. And this might be controversial. I don't write for anybody but myself. I write the stories that I wanna write. And because I do read so extensively, I write the stories that I feel like are missing. So when I wrote Lights Out, I hadn't read Butcher and Blackbird yet. And So I didn't know there were other people writing dark rom coms. And that was kind of like the driving factor behind that. For the motorcycle romance you mentioned, I wrote that to be a more feminist version of a motorcycle club. They let women in, they let queer people in, people of color. They're much more accepting than a lot of, like, the traditional motorcycle clubs that exist not just in reality, but in media in general. The mfm, the spicy mfm, historical romance. Everything I write, I write because I feel like there's a gap that we should start filling. And so I'll never change the way that I write, but I've definitely started changing the way that I interact online. And the surprising thing is it's not because of the outside community. It's more because of interior things that I have started just kind of stepping back a little bit. I mean, I get the same comments that everybody gets where it's. People are just horrified or they're whatever. I don't even engage. I used to, I used to try to educate people. I used to tell people what, why dark romance was actually feminist and how because you're reading a book that you can just close at any point, it gives you a sense of your own agency back if you're reading a scene that might be triggering to you. And you know, I've tried to explain all of these themes to people and you're just wasting your breath. They don't. Nobody listens. If somebody is going to come in to argue their point with you, they don't actually want to have a discussion. They just want to tell you horrible things about yourself. Because, you know, even if you catch them on something, instead, they'll just call you a cringe millennial. Like, so I'm like, okay, good job. It's changed how much I make available myself. But at the same time, like, because it's not my responsibility to try to change their mind, so I'm just gonna. I just let them be.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I feel like you're coming into this in a really interesting time where I do feel like, especially on book threads, I feel like the community is getting much more toxic and like, it's very like, witch hunty. And I can imagine that it's like a very difficult time to be in the position that you're in of popularity, that people want to, like, have something to say.

[Nevesa Allen]

And I mean, people try to use you as a punching bag or a talking point or, you know, I get tagged in a lot, lot more negative stuff now than I ever used to. And I Am confused about why. I don't know if people don't know the etiquette or if they're hoping that I will engage and give them some controversy or I'm not sure what, but I think it was. And I. I might be wrong, but I think it was HD Carlton who gave me. Not me, but the Internet in general. And I saw it on book threads. The best advice I've ever seen, that if you want to interact online, the best thing that HD has ever done was curate their feedback. So it's no. There's no book anything. There's no bookish anything, because it's not a safe place for them. They could just stumble into something horrible about themselves, their books, et cetera. And so they've kind of curated their feed to be just completely outside of the book threads, at least on all their other social media. So I've started doing that, and it's helped. Like, it's helped quite a bit. So now I'm on, like, run talk. And I tried to get onto garden talk, but that just ended up being about smoking weed. And I was like, no, I mean, like, actual gardening. Nothing against thc, but I was like, no, I just want to see plants. And so I've started doing that, and that's been helpful. But more than anything, I have just found that social media is not good for my mental health, full stop. I quit book threads. I'm not on there anymore. I pop on every now and then to, like, support a friend or. I found out that if you don't post for a month and then you post something, it'll push it to everybody's feeds and you can just jump. Scare the shit out of everybody. So what I did was I did something last month that was fun, and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna do that again. So I might pop on there every now and then, but I don't check notifications anymore. I almost never respond to comments. I have messages for, like, five people turned on on Instagram, So I can talk to other author friends or, like, bloggers that I've been friends with forever. But it's been very detrimental to my mental health in general, not just for my writing. So I'm just. Just pulling myself pretty far back.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm sorry that that's happened to you. That's. I feel like there's a dehumanization aspect.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

With the way that people interact in these situations. And I was reading something. Gosh, I wish I remember where this was, but it was something about how, you know, with actors, there's levels and layers of teams around them, and they expect that, you know, people can say these really nasty things about XYZ celebrity with the expectation that they will never, ever see them.

[Nevesa Allen]

But how?

[Becca Freeman]

With authors, there aren't really layers like that. Even though you do have an agent and an editor, like, they're not screening those things for you. And like, you're just a regular person procrastinating on your phone the same way that everyone else is. And like, it's just as easy for you to stumble into these things. And even before I started hosting this podcast or became an author myself, I feel like I thought of authors like rock stars, you know, Like, I wouldn't have understood that there weren't the same protections that there are for celebrities that, like, when you say something like this, an author is not necessarily, but, like, there's a fair chance they're gonna see it.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yeah. And more and more authors are putting people in between them and their comments. I have a couple of friends whose PAs just screen everything now full time. They don't see anything. They have their phone to post, and that's it. And so I'm talking about doing something similar with my husband where he's gonna have like the phone that has the social media on it. I'll record a TikTok or an ad or whatever. I have to hit post and then give the phone back to him. And he has like the lock screen information. And I do not just to keep me completely removed because there are mornings I wake up and I choose to hurt my own feelings, you know what I mean? Where I choose to look through threads or look through whatever, I'm like, why do I do that? So, like, I. I have most social media completely deleted off my phone right now. Anytime I want to post, I redownload it, I post, I re delete it. And I have a woman who pas for me at events and stuff, and she just keeps a general eye on my comments. So if something really is in there, she's like, hey, you need to go block this person. And I'll probably just continue to use, you know, those shields. But there are people who just don't. They don't look at anything, they don't see anything. And I really don't blame them. I. I've gotten lucky. I used to, I think when I had video start to go viral in the early days, it got on to like, the wrong algorithms and I had like the meninists on there that were trying to tell me all the horrible things about Myself and. But I don't really get that anymore. I don't get people who are like, you're disgusting for writing this. I just get people who think they deserve to have greater access to me or think that I should do things because they want me to, which is. It's an entitlement issue. I think we're seeing a lot of right now. And that's been weird. That's been like the weirdest thing where I'm like, this is who I want to cast for this thing, or this is. This is how I want to write this story. And, you know, there are people who only know me for lights out. And so when I write something, like, caught up, and it is more obviously progressive, you know, I get one star bombed, saying, I've suddenly gone woke. And I'm like, you tell me you don't know anything about me or my entire career without telling me. It's very tricky to navigate being online as an author, especially because I've had such an astronomical rise. I feel like, need to have a crash course. There needs to be, like, a YouTube course for authors on, like, how to navigate this because it's not been easy. And there's been so many times where I. I could have made the wrong decision and it could have been really bad. And I just see all those pitfalls for other people who are going to end up following in these footsteps, and I'm just like, yeah, somebody needs to do like a. Hey, shut up. Like, just shut up. Shut up. Is the whole course. Shut up.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think that that's the biggest way your personal life has been changed by this, you know, astronomical rise? Like, do people recognize you in town now? Is like, no, thank God.

[Nevesa Allen]

No, thank God. That's my biggest fear. My biggest fear in life.

[Becca Freeman]

Picturing you living in, like, a Gilmore Girls type town.

[Nevesa Allen]

I used to. I actually used to. Now we're very close to D.C. so it's just. It's a city. I live in a city, basically. It's funny because I was in New York for the release and I was out and about all through New York for nine. I was in New York for nine days because I did a bunch of other stuff. I met with friends, old high school friends, author friends. I, like, just had, like, a little getaway in New York and I didn't get recognized once, even though I was, like, in bookstores, signing, doing all sorts of stuff. So I feel like you can still just be really undercover even when you have success as an author. Like Tessa Bailey, Emily Henry. Love them. So much. If I saw them in person, in passing, I might not recognize them, even though I consume all of their media.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I feel like Tessa Bailey would have to be, like, holding a book in her hand for me to, like, put it together.

[Nevesa Allen]

I wouldn't.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think author famous is the best level of famous because you still have a certain degree of anonymity, and the people that love you are few and far between. And usually, hopefully, they're nice and they love your work and they're not just like, oh, a celebrity.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yeah, no. Anybody I've met in person has been wonderful. In general, I have the most supportive, incredible fans. I would say 99.9% of them are amazing. They're so supportive. They're such fangirls, like. And they show up every time I do anything to such a surprising, staggering, humbling level. And that is why I've been pulling away from online, because I want to experience them in real life, know those are my people, and not let, like, the 0.01% ruin my own readers for me, if that makes sense. Like, it's one of those things, like, it takes a thousand comments to make up for one negative comment. I. Like, I've read that somewhere, and I could be misquoting it, but I found that that is 100 true. One negative comment can completely ruin your day, especially if it's really bad. Completely ruin your day. It's all you think about for hours, and it, like, wrecks your mindset. And I'm like, I don't want to do that to myself anymore, so I'm not going to, and I'd rather just look at all the positive instead.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. I want to change subjects really quickly, and I want to talk about Caught up, which is the second book in the Lights out universe, but it can be read standalone. I haven't read this one in full yet, but I did dip in because I wanted to get a sense for it. And this one kind of immediately. We're at a sex club. Was there pressure for you to feel like you needed to top the spice level of Lights out or push it further somehow, or how are you thinking about Caught up, especially writing it after having the success of Lights Out.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yeah, I mean, I'm always trying to one up myself in some way or another. And, like, book three is done. We haven't announced the title. We haven't done anything. But I can tell you it's not as spicy as book three, you know what I mean? But it ups the ante in a lot of other ways. I'm always trying to do something to one up myself or create memories for readers where they have a core memory experience. With one of my books. And with Caught Up, I definitely wanted it to be this bias. I wanted to push kind of the limits and the boundaries and make people maybe feel a little uncomfortable at points and question things about themselves and maybe their own preconceived notions. And so for whatever reason, it just felt like it needed to be a spicier book again. Things just kind of pop into my head and I'm like, oh, what if I did this? What if I did this? What if I did this? And it was a way to. And I really used, like, sex as the mechanic to bring the two characters closer together in this for sure, because it's a second chance romance. So they have all this emotional baggage and this troubled past, and it's a way for them to get closer together while telling each other, well, we're just scratching a 10 year old itch. That's all this is. That's all this is. And so. But the more and more you go, you start to realize, oh, no, that's. Oh, no, that's not all this is. What have we done? Are we in love? So, yeah, that was kind of a driving factor with writing this one.

[Becca Freeman]

But it doesn't sound like it was negative for you. It didn't create a negative headspace. It was fun to. It was fun to come back to this universe and explore another area of it and see how you could up the ante.

[Nevesa Allen]

And I think book three might be funnier than book one. It's one of those things where you just let the characters dictate their own story to a certain degree. And Nico is. He's not Josh. You know what I mean? He's darker. He's actually done all the horrible shit that Josh is worried that he could become. And so he's working through that baggage and he's got that drier sense of humor. And so I let the female lead, Lauren and her friends, kind of be the comedic relief. And, you know, we have. We have the doggo in this one. And then in book three, I can't. Oh, there's so much stuff I haven't talked with my publicist yet about, so I don't know what I can say. But the animal in book three, he might even beat Fred for, like, main character energy. He just steals every single scene he's in. Like, he was so much fun to write.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, what kind of animal is this? Wait, will you tell us? And we can bleep it out.

[Nevesa Allen]

Oh, fuck. Yeah, it's a rescued named Amos. Oh my God.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's funny. It sounds like there probably are other like romance sub genres that you haven't written yet but you're interested in exploring. Would you maybe want to share some of those? No spoilers for book three, but just things that are rolling around in your head that you find interesting.

[Nevesa Allen]

So for book three, I've already confirmed that it's Tyler's book and I can't get too much into what the theme is about because spoilers from book two and book one. But let's just say that it is seedy underbelly meets like Richie Rich and it's kind of like billionaires are food, not friends are some of the vibes. But now that I've kind of wrapped this series up, I'm very much looking forward and I would at some point love to write a romantasy. I have like three or four half written. I'm one of those people where I have like.

[Becca Freeman]

You are prolific.

[Nevesa Allen]

No, I have like 20 books that are like half written to done. I'm always writing. So if I have like a two week break in between turning something in and editing. And I'm a fast writer too. I do like 5,000 words a day, so I'll get like.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I asked you to leave this podcast.

[Nevesa Allen]

I'm sorry. Well, I do a thousand words an hour and so I write and I write. I use Pomodoro method, so I write in half an hour sprints and I only write for like a total of five to six hours a day. So I'll do like five to 6,000 words sometimes if my words are flowing really well, which is most days because I just, I'm kind of stream of. I'm sure you can tell from this podcast stream of consciousness type of writer. But yeah, I have. I have so many stories. My problem is I just don't have the time.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow. Okay, two quick fire questions for you before we let you go. We want to give you a chance to talk up some other authors. So first, if listeners are mourning, already being done with, caught up and awaiting your next book and need something high spice and absorbing to read in the meantime, what other authors or books are you sending them to?

[Nevesa Allen]

Anything by Carrie Lake, Absolutely obsessed. Anything by Colette Rhodes, especially the Shades of Sin series. It's romantasy. It's kind of monster romance, but it's romantasy. But there's some darkness to it. And it's very Shadow Daddy and It's very funny. That's the other thing. So it's like a really good transition. Anything by Lee Rivers, obviously. Rook and Rebel is a really good comparison. Butcher and Blackbird. So if you want like that dark rom com, I would definitely recommend those two. Right now I'm reading I have an Arc of A Vow and Vengeance by Jacqueline Rodriguez. It's a romantasy and it has got a bit of darkness to it so far and it is very, very good. I think those are probably like the most comparable ones, I would say. And also just a book that I'm loving right now. But like, I think if you're looking for like that kind of humor level, I think Tessa Bailey's like, she's. I love her. She's absolutely one of my, my favorites and I think she's so, so deeply funny. Those are kind of my go tos. Definitely Colette Rhodes if you're looking for something that's funny, spicy and dark at the same time. But it's like a good palette cleanser because it's a, it's a different genre, if that makes sense.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

So similar but a little more specific. What was the last five star book you read?

[Nevesa Allen]

Problematic Summer by Ali Hazelwood. So everyone loves it.

[Becca Freeman]

Good.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

I think. No, I don't think it is my favorite of hers yet.

[Nevesa Allen]

It's up there. I have trouble picking. I think Bride is my favorite because I am such a paranormal romance girly at heart. Like I cut my teeth on old school pr so when that came out I was obsessed. I'm really looking forward to me but I. Oh yeah, Problematic Summer's up there. Deep End too. Like I really.

[Becca Freeman]

Deep End was great too. I think I just liked the main character, the female main character and Problematic romance so much. Like she was like a little bit wild and she was like even she didn't know it was going to come out of her mouth. Like it was just a really fun read.

[Nevesa Allen]

It was. And like whenever anybody asks me about characterization, I always point to Ali Hazelwood. Some of the best characterization I have ever read in any genre. She just so, so good at it. And like Deep End was a great example because of one of the side characters who was very problematic but also it's like. And everybody hated her. But I loved her because I was like, I was her. Like I was such a mess when I was in my 20s. I was such a drama queen. Like and sometimes you just gotta get that phase over with in your life and move on and hopefully become a better human and you could see that she was going to and I was like, I want her book next.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I can't even tell you how much we enjoyed this chat. I feel like this was so fun. We got some spoilers that listeners will have to watch out for, but we've talked about that. You're kind of like limiting your social media usage. But if people want to get all the updates, what is the best place to follow you online for them?

[Nevesa Allen]

Still Instagram and Booktok. I'm not on threads, but those two. All of the updates will definitely go through there if you want like all the juicy background, behind the scenes, early stuff. Not safe for work art. My Patreon is always the place to go. I do art every month. I give people spoilers and we have a whole conversation thing. That's probably the most information. But all the big announcements will still get flooded through my TikTok and Instagram.

[Becca Freeman]

And what's your handle? Just your name. Nivesa Allen.

[Nevesa Allen]

Yep. At Nevesa Allen on both of them.

[Becca Freeman]

Amazing. Let's take another quick ad break.

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by Caraway Home. So admittedly, Jake and I have not been very good at all about cooking at home since the summer has gotten very, very hot. And it gets very hot in my kitchen. But yesterday I had a full day of prepping food and stocking my fridge and I feel absolutely reborn. And I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed putting Caraway's food storage sets to use. They are absolutely the most gorgeous food storage containers that I have ever seen. You need to look them up. You can like see through the top of them. It's like a little window to your beautiful little berries. I was like chopping strawberries. It was just, it was a great day. My fridge now looks like one of those TikTok fridges where you just see the hand, you know, the hand putting the things in and like organizing them. We're getting there.

[Becca Freeman]

It's like a Kardashian fridge.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, exactly.

[Becca Freeman]

I just got their stainless steel cookware set, which Olivia has had for a few years now, and I'm immediately so impressed by how heavy duty it is. And I've only used it once so far and I didn't notice anything sticking. And of course I love that it doesn't have any of the toxic materials in it that are on their banned list.

[Olivia Mentor]

So if you've been eyeing Caraway's Internet famous 12 piece cookware set, now is the perfect time to buy. You can shop Caraway risk free, enjoy fast, free shipping, easy returns and a 30 day trial. Plus, if you visit CarawayHome.com BOP you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com BOP or use code BOP at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic cookware made modern.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, Olivia, let's get into some end matter. I need to hear about your obsession.

[Olivia Mentor]

My obsession is the movie the Truman show, which I watched last night, but first time I watched. No, I have not watched it probably since I was in high school. Like, I think I might have rented it from Blockbuster.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I remember watching it as a teenager and thinking, okay, this was good, but like, I don't fully get it, you know, or like I'm supposed to like this, but I don't know if it's necessarily my thing. Watching it as an adult cements it as one of my favorite movies of all time. Absolutely. It is genius. I cannot believe that I have not watched this movie a hundred times already. The fact that this was made in 1998, but it so perfectly predicted so much of what was to come with reality television, with influencer marketing, with surveillance.

[Becca Freeman]

I guess I haven't really thought of it in a modern context.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, my gosh. I can't get into specifics. Not that I'm like gonna spoil this 20 year old booby for all of you. 30. Almost 30 years old, actually.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I was doing the math really quickly in my head there. Sorry, paused. The performances are incredible. The wardrobe, like the crazy things they are wearing, the colors. It's a masterpiece. If you have somehow not seen the Truman show and you're listening to this, I need you to go home and watch it right now or tonight. I, like I said go home. Like someone is listening to this.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, maybe they're in their car. Like, I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wherever you are, get to a place where you can watch the Truman Show. Oh, it's like. That's a direct order for Black mirror. It is so good. When is the last time you watched this?

[Becca Freeman]

Couldn't tell you. I'm pretty sure I saw it in theaters.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that's. I'm jealous.

[Becca Freeman]

But yeah, probably in high school, at some point. I saw it again.

[Olivia Mentor]

Watch again and report back because it's. It's wild. I actually watched it because I was inspired by. I listened to an interview on the Barnes and Noble podcast with the author of a book called Cue the Sun, which is all about reality television and the history of reality television. And Cue the Sun is a line from the Truman show, and I just thought of it. It's been on my list of movies I want to rewatch, so I think I'm going to maybe check out that book now, too.

[Nevesa Allen]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Anyway, report back. Excellent movie.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm not gonna watch the Truman show again, but I'm happy for you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Of all the movies that I have on my list to watch, I don't see myself looping back for it, but I'm happy that you enjoyed it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Great. Well, what are you obsessed with?

[Becca Freeman]

I am obsessed with. I bought a watercolor set and I bought this workbook to go with it to tell me theoretically how to watercolor. And I did it as kind of just a way to have an activity to stay off my phone. Also, I. I really like the idea. I was talking to Grace while she was on her creativity retreat. I really like the idea of being a beginner at something. It has been so pleasurable to me to learn French this year. And I love the idea of having some kind of, like, creative activity that I'm not trying to monetize or master, but just something that's, like, creative and enjoyable. And I like the idea that watercolor is, like, kind of organic and messy. Not messy, that it makes a mess, but just, like, it's imprecise. So I've been having a lot of fun playing with it so far.

[Olivia Mentor]

Good. That sounds like a fun hobby. Yeah, they're soothing. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

And it was fairly cheap. Like, I think the watercolor set was 20 bucks and the workbook was, again, probably 20 bucks. So, yeah, I'm excited to continue. I have this vision of I would like to get good enough that I could make little cards for friends for birthdays or thank you cards or hostess gifts, things like that. So, you know, it doesn't need to be actually good, but just something that I would give a friend.

[Olivia Mentor]

Cute. I love that idea.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, what have you been reading?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so I've been reading a bunch of things. The only thing I finished is a book called Run for the Hills by Kevin Wilson. And I read Kevin Wilson's. I don't know if it. I think it might have been two books ago called now is not the Time to Panic. And it was just such a weird little book. And I enjoyed it so much. So I was excited to read this one, you know, that I've been on my bender of reading sibling books. Okay, so this is about one day. This woman works and has lived on a farm all her life. And she works with her mother. And her father left when she was a Kid, never to be heard from again. And one day this man drives up to their farm and he tells her that he is her stepbrother. And apparently their father had kind of gone and had all of these different lives and had all of these different families and kind of abandoned them one after the other. And so they go on this cross country road trip, picking up their other half siblings along the way and kind of discovering more about their father's alternate lives. And it's so charming and funny and I found it to be so delightful.

[Olivia Mentor]

I saw this at the library the other day and I almost checked it out.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like it reminds me a lot of the premise of the Road to Tender Hearts, and now it's made me want to read that like another. Does that also have to do with siblings or is it just a father, daughter?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, yes, it does.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, there are two siblings.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I feel like I. I am just really into this, like, dysfunctional family novel this summer.

[Olivia Mentor]

Jake is reading the Road to Tender Hearts right now and he really likes it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, it's on my list.

[Olivia Mentor]

He laughed out loud. I've never seen him laugh out loud while reading. I was like, what?

[Becca Freeman]

I was gonna say, you've never heard him laugh out loud?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. He never laughs. No. While reading. So that was fun.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, noted, noted. What about you? What have you read?

[Olivia Mentor]

You know, the reading gods giveth and the reading gods taketh away. I had a bad reading week. I DNF'd a book about 160 pages in. I DNF'd a book at 275 pages.

[Becca Freeman]

An even deeper DNF.

[Olivia Mentor]

I wasn't excited about either of them. I really did like them. I just, for whatever reason, my mind kept drifting and I was like, you know what? No, we're not doing this.

[Becca Freeman]

I DNF'd a book this week, Maybe like a hundred pages in, where I was like, it's just not the vibe I want right now.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, sometimes that's.

[Becca Freeman]

And I could go find a book that does scratch my brain itch right now. And I wanna do that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Sometimes you have to free yourself from the, you know, whatever. But after that, I DNF'd both. I was like, I need like a palette cleanser. I need something really short, fun, different. So I read Set Piece by Lana Schwartz, which is an 831-stories book.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I've been meaning to read this one.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's very fun and cute. So it's about. It's a real person, famous person romance. At one point, this bartender and this budding actor have this like one night stand that's super hot and fun. And they kind of think about it over the years and then five years later they reconnect on the set of a movie where the woman is in charge of set design and the actor is now super famous and he's the lead in this film. And so they have this sort of tension on set, which is really fun. There's a really very fun scene on the set of this remake of the Great Gatsby that they're making. So it's just a really fun, very quick romance. I enjoyed the main character a lot and the main female character was awesome. And I love how in all of the A3 1 stories, all of the female main characters have their own thing going on. That's really interesting. And I'm also very into movies lately and so it was cool to read about some of the, like, set design lingo and stuff that I had I knew nothing about. I learned a lot. So it was really fun and cute.

[Becca Freeman]

And you know how 831 stories always has, like some kind of merch aspect that goes with every book. The merch for this, there's the sweatshirt. I've worn it on the podcast before. I don't know if you've ever seen it. Cause usually just like it's from my boobs up. But there's a sweatshirt that says just okay, Gatsby. And I think it's so funny.

[Olivia Mentor]

I haven't seen it. Yeah, I saw in the back of the book that that was one of the. One of the pieces of merch. I have to look at the other stuff. I love that they do that. It's very fun.

[Becca Freeman]

I hope you have also had fun here with us today, listener. I don't know why this got very After School special, but it did. I had fun. I'm making it weirder.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also had fun.

[Nevesa Allen]

Thanks.

[Becca Freeman]

You know when else we're going to have fun? In this month's book club where we are reading Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid, which I am going to start tonight. This is about a love story that's set against the backdrop of the 1980s space program. I've seen basically nothing but rave reviews, so I'm really excited to both read this and to talk about it. So we'll be discussing it the last Wednesday of the month, so in two weeks. In the meantime, if you would like to chat with us about this episode or really about pretty much anything, you can join the Geneva group, which is like a Slack channel for not work. You can join the Facebook group. You can follow us on Instagram @BatonPaper Podcast I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my substack [e-mail] and I am on.

[Olivia Mentor]

Instagram and all the other places oliviamentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And we will see you next week. Bye Bye.

[Nevesa Allen]

You.