October 2025 Three Things

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: "October 2025 Three Things"

Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Episode Date: October 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this fall-themed episode of Bad On Paper, Becca and Olivia dive into October’s “Three Things”—a relaxed, thoughtful format where the hosts each bring a few topics to discuss. The episode is a blend of bookish discoveries, personal highs and lows, deep introspection about writing, and reflective chatter, all set to a cozy, seasonal tone. Notable topics include their favorite underhyped book picks, the lasting impact of plot twists, the emotional rollercoaster of creative work, and the evolving structure of their careers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Highs and Lows of the Week

• Becca’s High: Saw "Death Becomes Her" on Broadway (00:35)

  • Despite an understudy in a lead role, the show was "so funny, so campy, so good."

    “By virtue of this being my high, you can tell I was, like, so blown away.” — Becca (00:46)

• Olivia’s High: Returned to the Outer Banks for the first time in years (02:26)

  • Beautiful weather, time with family, walks, shell-collecting, and a memorable stop at her favorite Hatteras bookstore, Buxton Books.
  • Had a “full circle author moment” when the owner recognized both her and her published work.

    “I’ve ascended to the dreams of my younger teenage self.” — Olivia (05:20)

• Olivia’s Low: Faced rejection from a writer's residency (05:46)

  • Set a goal to normalize rejection and challenge herself to apply for things with uncertain outcomes.

    “I think I just wanted to put myself out there in a way where I knew there was a very black and white chance that I was either going to hear a yes or a no.” — Olivia (07:33)

  • Bounced back quickly and appreciated being “a little bit less sensitive to rejection.”

• Becca’s Low: Feeling out of sorts due to lack of routine (09:06)

  • Several weeks of broken routines due to travel, visitors, and incomplete reading habits.

    “I just feel very out of sorts in a way. And I think a lot of it actually has to do with that I haven’t had time to read a lot.” — Becca (09:11)

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Three Things

1. Underhyped Book Pitches (11:40)

Each host recommends two favorite books from 2025 they feel deserve more buzz:

• Becca’s Picks:

  • Any Trope But You by Victoria Levine

    • Contemporary romance set in snowy Alaska, featuring a canceled romance author and self-aware use of romantic tropes.

    “This is like such a fantastic contemporary romance. … As the weather is getting colder and as people crave cold weather books, here’s one that you might have skipped in April when you were wanting summertime books.” — Becca (14:49)

  • Loved One by Aisha Muharrar

    • Blends emotional mystery, romance, and drama as a jewelry designer unravels secrets about her late best friend.

    “It kind of defies genre classification … it’s billed as an emotional mystery, which I really liked.” — Becca (17:03)

• Olivia’s Picks:

  • Tilt by Emma Petit

    • Taut survival story about a highly-pregnant woman caught in a catastrophic earthquake while shopping for baby furniture.

    “It is so emotional and so tender because it’s all about this woman and her unborn child and the relationship with her partner and the relationship between the three of them, what it will be.” — Olivia (19:26)

  • Finding Grace by Loretta Rothschild

    • A wild blend of thriller, domestic drama, and love story following a couple navigating surrogacy and shocking life twists.

    “It is intense and it is so cinematic. ... It’s very over the top, but you can’t stop watching it.” — Olivia (22:59)

2. The Lasting Power of Plot Twists (24:30)

• Standout Twists:

  • The Safekeep by Yael van der Wouden — praised for its late, game-changing twist (25:52)

    “It almost feels infinite jestian in that it makes you want to go back and read the book again.” — Becca

  • Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn — the archetypal twist that defined a genre, with readers remembering exactly where they were when it hit (25:56, 26:34)

• Discussion: How social media (Bookstagram/BookTok) impacts the “purity” of experiencing a twist.

  • Olivia wonders if knowing a book contains a big twist affects the shock value, referencing Finding Grace as a current example (27:25)
  • Becca argues spoiler etiquette is largely maintained online, though marketing a book as “twisty” sets up different reader expectations (26:50)

3. Moods Across the Writing Process (30:54)

Becca and Olivia dissect their emotional states at each stage of writing a novel, collaboratively rating each stage’s joy or pain:

| Stage | Olivia’s Mood | Becca’s Mood | |------------------------------------|----------------------------|----------------------------------| | Idea/Kernels | “Neutral to slightly bad” | “A 10. Like having a crush.” | | Early Drafting | “Excellent...most powerful”| “An 8. Exciting, still confident.”| | Draft Middle | “Best or worst, powerful” | “Drops to a three, overall a six”| | First-Draft Ending | “Overwhelming, pride, but ‘shitty’” | “A 4. Struggle with endings.”| | Second Draft | “Love revising, natural high” | “8 or 9, very satisfying.” | | Third/Mid Drafts | “Can finally cut what doesn’t work” | “Challenging, fear, avoidance, another four moment.” | | Line Edits/Final Edits | “Good, plummets at point of no return” | “8/3 spike chart—thin-skinned about small edits.” | | Pre-Pub Awaiting Release | “Feels horrible, obsessed with reviews; breaks cycle by quitting cold turkey” | “Impatient, compulsive review-checking, then excitement as launch nears.” | | Book Launch & Promotion | “So happy, relieved, already immersed in next work” | “A 10, invigorating, but also had ‘unrealistic expectations’—disappointed at missed lists.” |

(Timestamps: 31:12–53:51)

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Reflection: Careers, Journaling, and Looking Back (55:38)

• Olivia’s trip to the Outer Banks prompts reflection on her career's transformation since 2021.

• Revisiting early podcast episodes and yearly goals episodes brings perspective on change, success, and creative effort.

  “It was just, it was really meaningful. I suggested if you ever are on a long walk and you think you can do it or want to once in a while.” — Olivia (60:04)

• Becca notes how seven and a half years of podcasting serve as a unique, personal time capsule.

  “I have a record of a fifth of my life. … I have this vision of my 80 year old self going back and listening from the beginning.” — Becca (59:16)

• They discuss the vulnerability and humility in making your creative process and goals public.

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Becca's Final Thing: The "Personal Curriculum" Trend (62:19)

• Inspired by TikTok, Substack, and their own interests, Becca and Olivia share ideas for self-designed "courses" for the fall.

  • Olivia’s Personal Curriculum:

    1. Shipwrecks, Castaways, and Survival at Sea

       “It is all about surviving extreme circumstances on the high sea across history.” (64:14)

    2. Knife Skills 101 — Aspires to impressive, efficient kitchen cutting.
    3. The Career of a Writer — Studies the long-term trajectories and reinventions of various novelists.

  • Becca’s Personal Curriculum:

    1. Supes: Old Classics and New Favorites — Her eternal autumn/winter tradition of making soup (65:46)
    2. Watercolor: Light and Shadow — Deepening her painting practice.
    3. Family: An Outsider’s Perspective — Reading family novels focused on outsiders integrating into existing clans, as research for her next book (66:03)

• They trade podcast and newsletter recommendations to support their ongoing "studies," such as Writers on Writing and Caroline Cala d'Onofrio’s newsletter on famously mean reviews of classic books (71:46).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I’ve ascended to the dreams of my younger teenage self. So it was nice that she saw my name and she recognized me.” — Olivia, on being recognized in her favorite indie bookstore (05:20)
• “I think you’re getting your rejection reps in.” — Becca (09:00)
• “Maybe this you’re leading the resurgence.” — Olivia, encouraging Becca to champion underrated books (14:33)
• “‘The cover’s giving: this is a woman thinking for 300 pages.’” — Becca, riffing on misleading book covers for Finding Grace (23:39)
• “The plot twist that it makes you want to go back and read the book again.” — Becca on The Safekeep (25:52)
• “The purity of the plot twist.” — Olivia, on the impact of social media on the “twist” experience (26:34)
• “I think a second draft is like an 8 or a 9… this part feels really good for me.” — Becca on revision joy (38:18)
• “For some reason, I thought [Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret.] was a modern version of the story… but I didn’t realize it was set in the 70s, and that just made it so good.”—Olivia (75:32)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:35 – Becca on "Death Becomes Her" on Broadway
• 02:26 – Olivia’s full-circle author moment at Buxton Books, Hatteras
• 05:46 – Olivia on rejection and artistic risk
• 09:06 – Becca on losing her routine
• 11:40 – The "under the radar" book pitches begin
• 24:30 – Salient plot twists, plot twist discourse
• 30:54 – Moods at every writing stage ("cheerful charting")
• 55:38 – Reflective discussion on personal growth, podcast as a time capsule
• 62:19 – The "Personal Curriculum" discussion and hosts’ course picks

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Obsessions of the Week (73:09)

• Becca: "Man I Need" by Olivia Dean—admitting to a chemical-level musical obsession (73:09)
• Olivia: Movie "Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret"—calls it "cozy" and "tender" (75:32)

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Recent Reads Highlights

• Olivia:

  • Finding Grace by Loretta Rothschild ("so cinematic," "could not put down")
  • Maggie, or a Man and a Woman Walk Into a Bar by Katie Yee (literary, plotless, beautiful sentences)
  • Sam by Allegra Goodman (coming-of-age, "underrated gem")
  • A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhurst (true survival story)
  • Female Fantasy by Iman Hariri-Kia (romantasy fanfic-inspired contemporary)

• Becca:

  • The Wilderness by Angela Flournoy (friend group fiction with complex structure, strong character work)
  • Totally and Completely Fine by Alyssa Sussman (fun, fade-to-black romance)

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Community & Further Engagement

• Join the Bad On Paper Facebook group and BFF/Geneva groups for book prompts and discussions.
• Follow Olivia (@oliviamenter) for updates and to pre-order her new novel, Little One (out February).
• Keep up with Becca (@beccamfreeman) for Substack musings and updates.

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This episode is rich in candid creative insights, genuine book passion, and comforting friendship—even in the face of career uncertainty, making it the perfect autumnal listen for readers, writers, and creative souls alike.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Bow Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[B]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[A]

And today we have an October Three Things episode for you.

[B]

Yeah, I'm excited. I feel good about my things. I'm excited to discuss with you.

[A]

Me too. Well, first, tell me about your high.

[B]

My high is that last week I saw Death Becomes her on Broadway, which I don't know why I waited so long to see. I don't know. I had heard positive things, but didn't feel compelled. And I had some friends in town last week, and they wanted to see a Broadway show, and we went to see it, and then we found out that one of the lead actresses was out that night, so we were getting an understudy. And so I went in with kind of medium low expectations, and by virtue of this being my high, you can tell that I was, like, so blown away. The musical was so funny. I was, like, cracking up the whole time. It's. I mean, it's similar to the movie with Meryl Streep, but it was so campy, so funny. The performances were so good. I adored it.

[A]

That's great. I have never seen this movie.

[B]

Oh, you haven't?

[A]

No. So I. I've heard of it, of course, but I don't know anything about it. But I'm so glad it was good. I can imagine the understudy thing would be like, oh, but it says a lot that it was still so excellent.

[B]

Yeah. The movie's from 1992, so it's definitely an older movie, but it's about. In some ways, it's about beauty culture. I actually think you would really like. It's about this famous actress or kind of famous actress and then this other woman who's a novelist, who end up taking this, like, mysterious potion that gives them eternal beauty.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that does sound interesting.

[B]

Yeah. But it's very funny. Like, it is very topical, but it's very. It's done in a funny way.

[A]

Okay, well, great. That sounds amazing. I'm going to the city a couple times this fall, so maybe I'll see it.

[B]

You should tell me yours. What's your high?

[A]

My high is that I just got back from a week in the Outer Banks, which was wonderful. We go every year, but didn't go last year. And so being back again was just so good for my mind, body, soul, heart, all the things. We had perfect weather pretty much every single day. I woke up most mornings and watched the sunrise and drank coffee and, you know, we played games. We went for long walks on the beach. And looked for shells. We found sea glass, which is. I didn't find that much, to be honest. Jake found a couple of really great pieces, which then I get to claim as my own, which is great. And my cousins were there and their kids. And an especially lovely moment was we went to my favorite bookstore in the Outer Banks on Hatteras Island. Also, I just want to do his PSA because I get this question a lot. A lot of people ask me, where do you go on the Outer Banks? And I feel very called to say that the Outer Banks is a. It's a long chain of barrier islands. I have, I think when I was a little kid, stayed in the northern parts, like Duck, Corolla, Kill Devil Hills. But my specific love of the Outer Banks is specifically tied to Hatteras island, which is the southern part of the Outer Banks. And it's its own thing. When you see the videos of, like, houses falling into the ocean, that's Hatteras Island. Anyway, PSA to everyone. But on Hatteras there is a bookstore called Buxton Books, which is my favorite and not to be confused with the Charleston one.

[B]

I was going to say, are they related?

[A]

No, they're not. I don't know what the name in. In Charleston comes from, but the Buxton Village Books, I think is what it's called is in Buxton. It's. Which is a village on Hatteras. So anyway, it's run by this woman named Gigi, who I've seen many years, but this is the first year that I've gone where I had a book in the world. So it was kind of cool because I went and she remembers me every time, and we always have this conversation where she says, are you the person who took really cool photos of the bookstore years ago? And that was when I was 13, by the way, and I carried a Nikon, like, everywhere and took artsy photos. Anyway, so now, obviously, I'm 32, and I always get kind of shy doing this with booksellers. But luckily I was smart enough to make these business cards for Little One, where the front has the COVID and the back has a QR code where you can read all the information. So I bought my books, I handed her the card and I said, oh, by the way, I have a book coming out with Little Brown in February, if you are interested. I love this store. And she was like, olivia, I know you. We just sold a copy of Such a Bad Influence. And I was like, I've ascended to the dreams of my younger teenage self. So it was Nice that she saw my name and she recognized me. It's always nice that she remembers me from being 13, because I remember being 13 and being in there and just thinking, it's the most magical little cottage in the world. And, yeah, it was just really cool. So, anyway, cool.

[B]

Full circle author moment.

[A]

Yes, it was a really full circle week, which I'll talk about later. But, yeah, it was just exactly what I needed. And I feel so ready now to just get into fall. But, yeah, it was great.

[B]

What about on the low side?

[A]

Oh, the low. Okay. So I had this goal this year that I haven't really talked about, but it was sort of just in the back of my head, maybe. I did talk about it a little, actually. But I. I wanted to be rejected from things. That's not really what I wanted. But what I wanted was to try something where I had a very good chance of not being accepted or failing. And maybe I wouldn't. Or maybe I would. And I thought for a long time, actually, about applying to MFA programs that didn't make sense financially in the end. But I did apply to this artist writer's residency, and I sent in, you know, you have to send in material and all this stuff. And my first day of vacation, I found out I didn't get in. And, I mean, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people apply to these things. This is a very small one, by the way. It's not one of the, like, very famous residencies. So I found out I didn't get in on this first day of vacation. And I was really. I wasn't upset because I wasn't super emotionally attached to being accepted or anything, but it's just this, like, moment of shame where you're like, oh, I'm not good enough. And I used some of the early material for my third book, which then freaked me out because I was like, oh, my gosh. Sure, my agent likes this, but they hate this, and what if everyone hates this? And I just spiraled very quickly. But then I thought I had this goal to try something where rejection was a. Like, a certain possibility. And not just that, you know, being an author is being rejected all the time through reviews or whatever.

[B]

Can I ask a clarifying question?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Was the goal actually to get rejected, or was the goal to go on an artist residency?

[A]

I wanted to go. You know, like, I wanted to go. The goal was to try something where I knew there was a very good chance that I would get rejected. I guess the point is, like, I haven't been through the experience other than Submission and trying to find an agent and everything, where in a very short time period you apply to something and they're going to say yes or no. You know, like, it's been a very long time since I applied to colleges. For example, I never applied to MFA program. So I was like, this is something that I'm going to just try. And I did want it, of course, but it wasn't like. It wasn't like I wanted to be rejected. I think I just wanted to put myself out there in a way where I knew there was a very black and white chance that I was either going to hear a yes or a no. And I wasn't that attached to it. But when I heard the no, I was like, oh, this is why I almost didn't apply to this, because this sucks. But it also just kind of desensitized me to it a little bit, which I think is good. And, you know, I can apply next year and. And I can apply to other things. And there's so many others. Yeah, yeah. And I will survive. I will survive. So I'm glad I tried. There will be others. It doesn't mean that I'm an inherently terrible writer. No. And, yeah, it was just this moment of like, oh, yeah, maybe everything I think that's bad about this is true. Which is, I think, how every rejection feels a little bit. But then I bounced back really quickly, and I was just really happy that I tried something, and now I'm a little bit less sensitive to rejection. Maybe.

[B]

Maybe you're getting your rejection reps in.

[A]

Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying. Tell me your low.

[B]

My low is that I'm feeling kind of out of sorts, and I think a lot of it has to do with being out of a routine. So I turned in my draft two weeks ago, and then I had a few days where I was frantically catching up on things, and then I had a few days where I had adventure days and did fun things away from my desk. And then unexpectedly or only half unexpectedly, but at the last minute, I ended up having friends come visit me last Monday through Thursday. And so, you know, I was playing hostess. I wasn't in my regular routine. And then, you know, who's starting a work week on Friday? So I just feel very out of sorts in a way. And I think a lot of it actually has to do with. With that I haven't had time to read a lot. And that's something that I feel like I didn't read as much as I usually did in August all of September. Like, I just feel kind of not myself. I was telling you before we started recording that I just had plans canceled on me for Wednesday, and I'm thrilled. So I'm looking forward to having a kind of routine y week, Even over the weekend. I did find time to read, but I'm still feeling a little just off.

[A]

I get that. I didn't read this morning. I read a lot on vacation. I didn't read this morning because I was very tired, and I decided to instead spend half an hour going to get a very large iced coffee. And I feel weird. I just like. It just. It throws you off a little bit. And when you have those habits, like, kind of fall by the wayside repeatedly. Get, it just. It feels off. But I'm hoping that you have a very chill few weeks ahead.

[B]

Well, I have a pretty chill week this week before I get my edits back on this book. And I have things I want to do, but I have fewer things I have to do. So I think I might take. I don't know if the rest of the day or just part of today. Maybe paint a little, which I think would feel good. Maybe do some cheeky daytime reading, which I never let myself do, in addition to trying to do some of the newsletter stuff that I want to do to get ahead. So, yeah, I'm hopeful.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Well, shall we get into the things?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. I heard a rumor you only have two things.

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

So it's okay. Should I start? Because I have three.

[A]

Yeah. You seem really excited about your things, which makes me excited. So let's kick things off with you.

[B]

Okay. So the first thing I would like us both to do is I was thinking that we could both kind of make the pitch for two books that came out this year that we think flew under the radar or maybe did not get as much hype as we think they might deserve.

[A]

I'm pulling out my reading journal. Ooh, consulting the mega list. Do you have yours ready to go? While I look through the books?

[B]

I do. Yeah. I have two ready to go. So I feel like I've talked enough about deep cuts. Justice for deep cuts. I've talked a lot about this book, Aftertaste, by Daria lavelle, Especially in my newsletter. I went for some new ones that I haven't advocated for as heavily necessarily, but I think have flown more under the radar. So the first one is a contemporary romance called Any Trope but yout by Victoria Levine. And this came out in April, and I read it last December, all in One go on a plane ride. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is the next Emily Henry. This is like such a fantastic contemporary romance. And then my second thought was because most of the book is set in Alaska, it's a very snowy, wintery read, My second thought was, why the heck is this book coming out in April? And I'm sure there was a reason, but I think because it was very wintry and it came out in April, it maybe got a little lost in the shuffle that people, you know, they were like, I'm ready to take off my layers. I don't want to read about Alaska. But this romance was so fun. It was really funny too. So it's about a famous romance author who I could almost kind of see being an Emily Henry type who is then found out that she does not believe in true love. And she gets semi Internet canceled. And in the wake of her cancellation, she ends up going off the grid to this nature resort in Alaska that has, you know, no cell service, like very little Internet, where she's trying to write a book in a different genre. And of course, the moment she arrives, the proprietor has a very handsome son who's there helping out, who she keeps running into. And as the title implies, it's super tropey, but it's very tropey in a self aware way. It's like poking fun at the tropes almost even as it's employing them. I thought it was so fun. It was so steamy in such a good way. I loved this and I feel like the seasonality of it kind of, I don't know, made it not pop as much as I perhaps expected.

[A]

I vividly remember after you read this, you just going to bat for this hard. Yeah. And being convinced it was just gonna be absolutely everywhere. And I remember it getting a ton of buzzed as well. But sometimes it just takes a little bit, you know. So maybe this you're leading the resurgence.

[B]

Well, I'm just saying that as the weather is getting colder and as people crave cold weather books, here's one that you might have skipped in April when you were wanting summertime books.

[A]

Yes, you heard it here first, everyone.

[B]

So that's one. And then my second one is a more recent book that came out in August and it's Loved One by Aisha Muharrar. And this one kind of defies genre classification a little bit for me. There is romance, but I would not call this book a romance. I'm not quite sure it's literary. I would say maybe it's more upmarket. So kind of that space between commercial and literary. But it's about this woman who is 30 and her best friend dies, who she has a romantic history with very suddenly, and he's an indie musician. And it kind of sends her on this journey to find out more about the last month of his life and kind of unravel all of these mysterious to her elements about what was going on in his life before his death. And it sounds like this would be very sad and there is a grief element to it, but I wouldn't say the book is too heavy. And this quest brings her to London, where she kind of ends up entangled with her best friend's ex girlfriend, who also has secrets. And it's billed as an emotional mystery, which I really liked because there is like, there's a lot of secrets. There's a lot of her trying to unravel what happened. But it's not a whodunit mystery kind of. But I really enjoyed this book. I thought it was funny. I thought it had a lot of heart. There's a past timeline romance of the two of them falling in love on a summer exchange program when they're, I think the summer between high school and college. The main character is a jewelry designer. And I think the book takes place in maybe 2016. And it felt very like on the pulse of a certain, like, la hipster scene.

[A]

It sounds good. I love an emotional mystery. I really do.

[B]

It was really good. I really, really liked the book. And I think maybe because it defies genre a little and it isn't like, oh, this is a romance. Oh, this is a mystery. Oh, this is kind of a literary book. Like it maybe has not quite found its audience yet. Also, this book has one of my favorite covers of the year too. It has a really beautiful dinner tablescape illustration as the COVID that I think is really beautiful.

[A]

It does have a cool cover. I can see it in my brain.

[B]

Yeah. So I haven't seen this one kind of pop off that much either. And I think it's very well worth your time if any of those elements appeal to you.

[A]

Great pitches.

[B]

What about you? What have you come up with that you would like to make the case for?

[A]

Okay, I have two great. The first one is Tilt by Emma Petit, which I have talked about before. This is a very short, quick book. Everyone I talk to about this book has read it in one sitting or two sittings, including myself.

[B]

I saw somebody in the Geneva group. I don't know how to refer to our. Our BFF group. I don't know how to refer to this anymore, but I saw somebody saying that they bought this book for their vacation and ended up being so engrossed by it that they finished it before their vacation.

[A]

Yes, you. You could absolutely sit down for dinner one night and just read this before you went to bed. It is so fast paced. And on the shorter side as well. This is about a woman who is almost 40 weeks pregnant. I want to say 37 or 38 weeks pregnant. And she is at Nikea buying furniture for the baby, kind of thinking about all of the things that are about to change in her relationship and her life. And there is a huge earthquake. This is set in Portland. And the earthquake is the big one, which is the. The earthquake that is proposed that will eventually, like, hit the entire west coast of the United States and cause widespread chaos and destruction. And so it's all about what happens after the earthquake, how she gets out, how she survives. She's trying to make her way to her partner. And it is heart pounding in a thriller type of way, like you cannot stop reading. It's a survival story. It's kind of. I don't know, I was gonna say adventure, but it's more like disaster. It's very intense and it is so emotional and so tender because it's all about this woman and her unborn child and the relationship with her partner and the relationship between the three of them, what it will be. And I think about it all the time. The writing is so beautiful. It's quite funny in parts, too. The voice is really strong and there are, of course, a lot of trigger warnings. And I would. If you live on the West Coast, I would maybe think about not reading it first if you are triggered by this kind of thing. But I just absolutely love it. If you love a page turning type of book with emotional depth, this will check every box for you, I think. And I just loved it. I've heard from my friends who have read it on my recommendation that the ending is kind of frustrating.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And same with the next book I'm about to pitch, actually. So Tilt is a perfect book to me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This next book I'm gonna talk about. I wouldn't say is a perfect book to me, but I am shocked it is not absolutely everywhere right now, and that is Finding Grace by Loretta Rothschild.

[B]

I feel like I have seen this a lot of places because, oh, I know this isn't for me, but I do recognize the COVID Oh, okay.

[A]

Last time we talked about it, you said that you hadn't so Maybe you just.

[B]

Oh, maybe I just know about it.

[A]

From you connect it with the COVID maybe. It did get a lot of press. Like, it was on all the major kind of book podcasts, the Barnes and Noble podcast, all of that. So this is about a couple and their child. And it starts out they are visiting Paris for Christmas and she is very desperate to have a child. And they're waiting to find out if their surrogate is pregnant or not. After the. I don't know if it would be, I think an iui. I'm not sure. So that's where it starts. And there is a huge plot twist at the end of the first chapter. Huge. Huge. And after that begins what I can only describe as part thriller, part love story, part soap opera, part train wreck. Train wreck vibes. It is intense and it is so cinematic. It really gives me the feeling of like a good British domestic thriller mystery drama that's like very over the top, but you can't stop watching it. The writing is also really good. I think a lot of people might have a problem with this book because it is so many different things at once. I mean, it is from chapter to chapter. I would feel like, oh, I'm reading a beautiful love story. Then I would feel like I was reading a very sort of eerie, disturbing thriller. And then I would feel like I was reading, I don't know, some weird combination of the two. And it's a little bit disorienting in a way that I think works really well sometimes and other times doesn't. But I read this in a day and it's not short. I think it's probably 320. 350 pages. I couldn't put it down. I couldn't stop thinking about it. I was like, oh, is this a movie yet? It will be. It is very intense. And the ending is something. I will say that the ending is something. I didn't love the ending, but I loved the experience of reading this book because of how much I could not put it down. Could not put it down. And I also. I love a train wreck book. I do. So if you were just looking for a book to get absolutely lost in, you might get a little frustrated along the way. But I think you should pick this one up.

[B]

You know what's really interesting about hearing your pitch versus having seen the COVID a lot of places is the COVID of this book to me is giving plotless weird girl fiction. The COVID is giving. It's kind of this painterly portrait of, I assume, the main character. Then there's somebody else in the background. It is giving and it's very tan. The COVID like, it's kind of very neutral. I would never expect soap opera trainwreck based on both the title and the aesthetic of the COVID Yeah, I would.

[A]

Say it's like literary soap opera train wreck.

[B]

The cover's giving. This is an a woman thinking for 300 pages.

[A]

It's not. I can promise you it's hard to talk about this book because the plot twist kind of like informs the entire structure and format of the book. But this would be a great book club book because it's very controversial, I think, and like it. I can't. I'm having trouble talking about it, but I want to talk to everyone about it because I'm like fascinated by the choices made by the characters and the authority.

[B]

Well, November is your pick. You can. You could make that happen if we need to discuss it.

[A]

Oh, I. Maybe I'll keep it on my radar.

[B]

All right. I really enjoyed that.

[A]

Yes, Great thing.

[B]

I'm excited also, I hope that maybe our listeners will follow on with their underhyped books in the Facebook or Geneva group.

[A]

Yes, Such a good prompt.

[B]

Okay, what's your first thing?

[A]

My first thing, actually, it kind of goes off of that a little bit and that is plot twists in books. And this is inspired by a bound paper Facebook group post which I was very entertained by. And it's all about the plot twist that has stuck with you that you remember more than anything. So I wanted to know if there's one that you think about all the time or one that stops you in your tracks and has not been repeated since. Maybe.

[B]

I would say the one that came to mind first is the Safekeep by Yael van der Wouden, which is kind of this literary Sapphic romance that I did not expect to have a huge twist at all. It does not feel like the type of book where there is a twist and then there is a twist at the very end that it almost feels infinite jestian in that it makes you want to go back and read the book again to then see how all of this was set up and how you missed it. And I enjoyed the book up to that point, but that just took it completely over the top. Like from a four star book to like a six star book based on the plot twist that I didn't see coming that completely changed the tone and context of the book.

[A]

Yeah, I totally agree with you.

[B]

What about for you? What comes to mind for you?

[A]

Well, the one that was very talked about on the Facebook group post is the one that I have to mention, which is of course the Gone Girl twist. And what people were saying on the post about it is they can remember exactly where they were. They can remember the experience of throwing the book across the room. And I had that same experience too. I remember it so vividly. And it really made me think about plot twists and fiction now versus we'll say pre, our current social media landscape. You know, there was Instagram back then and all that, but it wasn't quite the same.

[B]

Well, I feel like Gone Girl was genre defining. It's also pre Gone Girl. Pre and post gone Girl, right?

[A]

Yes, that is very true. I think it's hard to replicate what that was. But I guess what I wanted to talk to you about is how you think the Bookstagram book talk has changed the purity of the plot twist, you know?

[B]

Oh, I don't know that. I think it's dramatically changed it because I do feel like there are very upheld rules and norms in place about spoilers. So I don't feel like I'm frequently seeing unlabeled spoiler discussions where twists are getting ruined. I guess sometimes I will hear about books being twisty, so I will expect twists or have expectations going in that I wouldn't have had without the bookish Internet. What are your thoughts on how it's changed?

[A]

I think Finding Grace is a good example because it is pitched as maybe not in the copy from the publisher, although potentially, but when people talk about it, people talk about there's a huge, including myself, there's a huge plot twist at the end of chapter one. And it makes me wonder like, what that reading experience would be like if I didn't know that at all, you know? And I think that's how I felt about the Twist and Gone Girl because even though I read it in paperback, so it had already been out for at least a year when I read it. And I knew that it was. Everyone loved it, but I didn't know, like, it is famous for the twist even then. And I don't know if that's because I wasn't as in like reading communities as I am now. You know, I couldn't go on my phone and see 900 people on their Instagram stories talking about the huge plot twist. So it was like, I wonder how much of that twist in that experience was because it was more pure. You know, more people were just picking it up because they knew it was a popular book. And then having that experience versus now it's like I Don't know. It goes both ways, I guess, though, because I partially wanted to read Finding Grace because I knew there was a huge plot twist. And I love a huge plot twist. So it's just interesting, the marketing of the plot twist. I guess the other thing is that when you know there's a twist, I think it. I don't know, you have expectations. I mean, the safekeep is a great example because the twist is not actually really included in most of the marketing that I have read. Most of what you said about the book, maybe I didn't remember, but like the plot twist of it all, which to me is the thing that, like you said, brings it to the next level, was a surprise. Yes. Like, I had not heard about it, really. I had heard about the book being incredible and amazing and beautiful and award winning, but I hadn't heard about that. So it felt in a way like Gone Girl, where it was like this twist that felt very earned and truly deeply surprising.

[B]

Yeah. You know what another book is that I felt like was twisty in a great way? First Lie Wins by Ashley Elston. I loved that book so much and I feel like it had multiple twists in it. That. And this is not my genre again, thrillers. This is a non scary con woman type thriller. And every time I thought I had figured that book out, a huge twist would happen and it would turn itself on its head. And I loved that experience. And I think it twisted three or four times in a way that I was like, oh, this is great.

[A]

I think none of this is true. Also has a similar feeling to that one. I don't know if you would agree. I think you liked that one too.

[B]

I did like that one, but I feel like that had fewer twists. Like, I feel like it had maybe like two big twists versus I feel like in my memory at least, it's been a while since I read it. First lie wins. I feel like every 70 pages or so just completely was like completely zagged.

[A]

She just announced her second book and I've been thinking about the insane amount of pressure she must feel to. To deliver a similar type of book.

[B]

Do you remember seeing when this came out? I can't remember if we ever spoke about this, but there was this Instagram reel I saw of her talking about how she plotted that book and she had just a giant roll of butcher paper where she had mapped it all out. And I thought that was fascinating. I've never seen that before.

[A]

Yes. I remember seeing that and being like, I want that. It looked so cool to me. Well, what's your next thing?

[B]

Well, we're having a very. Reading and writing three things, so I'll just. I'll keep going with it. I would like to talk about how your mood ebbs and flows throughout the different parts of the writing process.

[A]

It's a great question because this is.

[B]

Something I've noticed in myself and I'm just curious if this is. I. I actually don't know that it'll be the same for you and I or for any two writers. So. Okay, so maybe let's go step by step in the process and you tell me generally how you're feeling, how your mood is, and I'll do the same. Okay. So you come up with an idea for a book. You're in the pre writing idea, doing some research, putting notes in your phone phase of a book. On a scale of 1 to 10, how's your mood?

[A]

You know, surprisingly, I would say not the best. Because when I have an idea, but I don't have momentum, as in I haven't started actually putting words on the page, I feel like, vaguely excited about it, but it still feels so overwhelming. I can't get my arms around any of it. And I can't do that until I start writing. So I would say it's like neutral to slightly bad.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because I also don't, like, plan a ton. I think you do more of a process and I'm more. I have a kernel and then I just start writing and then I kind of reverse engineer it later.

[B]

But yeah, for me, this is a 10. This is like the feeling of having a crush.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're like, oh, my gosh, this is so fun. My idea is perfect because there's no words to disprove that yet.

[A]

That's good. I'm really glad.

[B]

Okay, so the next part you start writing, you're in the early phases of drafting better.

[A]

Definitely. If I have momentum under me and I've had like one or two days where I've written something that I really like, I feel excellent, actually. This is where I usually feel the best and the most powerful.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I have not yet written myself into a problem that I will have to fix later. Or I have, but, like, it's not something that's right ahead of me. I have the high of like writing a sentence I love or writing an aspect to a character I absolutely love. So I find drafting really taxing. Like, mentally, I can't do a lot of it. I can only do really like an hour to two a day. But those two hours afterwards Oh, I feel so good. Usually, like, I feel excellent.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What about you?

[B]

I would say it's a step down from the idea. So maybe from a 10 to an 8. Still feeling good. I usually. When I start writing, I know the first few chapters. I kind of know the shape of the first act, so I'm not yet stumped on what's gonna happen. You know, maybe there's an aspect of like, oh, this is, like, kind of shitty, but there's time to fix it. So, you know, sometimes you're like, huh, I don't know about this, okay. But I'm still excited about the idea. I still know what comes next. And I'm like, we're doing it. We're executing on this great idea. So I would say I generally feel really good. Like an eight.

[A]

Good.

[B]

What about the middle stage of a first draft?

[A]

So. So it's either the worst or the best. Okay. Kind of like, okay, because I think there's the point where. And I don't know what this point is for you, but you'll have to tell me. I find I can't remember if it's 20 to 30 or 30 to 40,000 words. That stage I find really tricky because you kind of need the action to keep going. You need, like, incident to happen. You sometimes. And I just. I get frozen. I think it's hard to find the momentum. However, once I am over that hump and I'm like, squarely in the middle, then I feel excellent because I can feel the story have actual weight to it. I know the characters pretty well. I'm excited about certain sections of it at that point. I reread a lot as I'm writing. So, like, I've read a lot of it and it's like, in my mind is, oh, I love that scene, or I love that sentence. And it starts to feel like a real thing, you know, like, okay, this is real. I have a draft I abandoned at 25, 000 words. And getting to pass that to 35, 45,000 words in this third book, or what I hope will be my third book, felt just. I felt so powerful. I felt excited. How do you feel in that stage?

[B]

I would say there's usually a moment where I'm going to drop down to like a three in there where I'm either like, oh, God, like, I've run out of story, or, like, what happens next? Or, like, I don't. Is this dumb? But I would say my mood is getting worse and there's a moment where it's bad, but it's overall okay. Like, I'm gonna say we're, like, in a six here, but there is, like, a really dark moment where we drop down to a three, and we're like, what have I done?

[A]

Yes, I. Yes, I know that. I know that dropped very well.

[B]

Okay, what about ending a first draft? Like, not being done with it, but, like, the third act?

[A]

This is a tough one because I think for every book I've worked on, this has been very different. Generally, I think in my first two books, when I got to the end of a first draft, I felt like, oh, wow, this is overwhelming. I have so much to fix. Like, both pride, but also, oh, this is really shitty. This third book is a bit different because I wrote half of it, and then I went back to the beginning, and I basically started a new draft. So I kind of feel like by the time I get to the end of a first draft, first of all, it won't really be the first because I will have been over it a lot of times. I also have an outline this time, so I have hope that I will feel a little bit less like that. Like, oh, this doesn't make sense. There's this huge plot problem that I need to go fix, so I hope I will feel a little more confident. Yeah, tell me about how you feel.

[B]

I'm like a four here. I feel like my first draft is just like a slide to the bottom of. You know, you start really high, and then it just keeps getting lower and lower. I think I struggle with endings, coming up with the ending, or figuring out how to wrap everything up with this book. I was also like, wow, this thing's getting too long. You've written too much. Like, oh, God. And all I want to do is go back to the beginning and start fixing as opposed to writing the ending. And so I'm like a four here. I'm not feeling good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. What about second draft?

[A]

I love revising.

[B]

I prefer revising to drafting as well.

[A]

Yeah, I think it can be more daunting in some ways, like that period of sitting in between drafts thinking about how you're gonna change things. Thinking about all there is to change can be super painful. But once I'm in it and I have that momentum again, it is so deeply satisfying, as I'm sure you feel as well. Like, it is the best feeling, and we talked about it before, like, but that act of changing one thing, fixing two problems in one, like, I feel that is, like, a natural high that feels so good, and seeing it get better is just yes. Wonderful. And, yeah, so this is up there. This is maybe. This is maybe even better than drafting. Do you feel the same? It sounds like maybe.

[B]

Yeah. I think a second draft is like an 8 or a 9 where I have a huge list of things I want to fix. And I know the draft is getting better than it was. And, like, the old adage, you can't edit nothing. So now I have this pile of stuff that I can make better. And, you know, we're cutting out junk, we're moving things around, we're making it better. And so this part feels really good for me.

[A]

It's the best. I also think that, like, going to a third draft is even better in some ways, because sometimes for me, with a second draft, I can still feel a little bit attached to things that I know need to go. By the time I get to the third draft, I don't know, maybe you have a different experience that you can tell me. But by the time I get to the third, I'm like, I don't care about anything.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Like, I can cut and cut and cut. If I. If it's not working by that stage, I'm like, there's no convincing yourself that it's working or it's gonna work like it's going. So sometimes it takes me a bit to, like, let go of, you know, my. My darlings is, as the saying goes, do you find that. How do you feel about a third draft?

[B]

I'm kind of gonna lump some of the middle drafts together. Like, I feel really good on a second draft because I am certain about what I wanna fix. Like, there's things that I just been, like, chomping at the bit. All through writing the first draft, I'm like, oh, I know I need to go back and fix that. Or I don't like that, or I've had a better idea. And then in the third, fourth draft, I'm kind of confronting, oh, it's still not perfect. Oh, like, there are things I don't know how to fix. Oh, is this bad? So those drafts I find more challenging. And in this book, specifically on my fourth draft, I basically rewrote half the book. And that was really challenging to be like, oh, my gosh, I've already put so much work into this, and it now needs to change so much, and am I gonna.

[A]

Am I gonna ruin it?

[B]

Is it fixable? Am I gonna make it worse? So I find those kind of middle drafts to be another low point for me. And I think this is where my procrastination and my, like, avoidance and fear really is at its peak. So I would say this is like another four moment for me.

[A]

I know what you mean. We talked about this a little bit, I think, in the last episode. But the sense of, like, you can't start from the beginning, you know, you can't abandon it and be like, I'm doing this all differently, you know, and so I don't have this problem. Like, you're kind of. The structure of it is set like you were married to it. And I also think the reality starts to set in that, like, oh, you're gonna spend a lot of time with this. You may be thinking about the next thing, but settle in.

[B]

Yep. Yep. Okay. What about the later drafts? Like the. You've done most of the developmental stuff and you're fixing smaller things and you're getting into line edits generally.

[A]

I. I feel really good throughout this process. Like, I feel like it's getting better. It's getting better. It's getting better. When it gets closer to the point of no return where you can't fix anything, you can't change anything, and you've read it a hundred times, that's when I start to plummet.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I realize, oh, I'm gonna have to put this in the world, hopefully, if I'm lucky enough. And I am so aware of every single word and so aware that I'm a different writer now than I was when I started it. And it feels really terrifying. And you've thought about everything that someone might think about it, and it's getting closer to that point. But do you like line edits? I think we've talked about this, but I can't remember.

[B]

So this is where I am now. My next round will be line edits. I had a smaller, more focused round before this that was, I would say, like, still developmental but less big changes. And I would say in this phase, my mood is like 8, 3, 8, 3. Like, it's like a heart spike chart. Like, it's going up and down a lot. And I don't know why, but sometimes I have the thinnest skin for line edits where it's like, it's like, it's the stupidest thing. It's word choice. It's something. Or it's like, cut this sentence. And I'm like, how dare somebody not like this word I've chosen? Yeah. Like, I feel so thin skinned about stupid stuff and. Or sometimes the ask is so, like, I'm like, I've rewritten half the book and the ask Here is for like, combine these two sentences and why can't I do it? Like, why is my brain just like has no idea?

[A]

Yes, I totally get that.

[B]

It's not all of them because some of them you just knock out and you're like, oh, yeah, cut this line. Or like, oh, yeah, I know, exactly. Yeah, totally easy to fix. But then like 1 out of 5, I'm like either so pierced by or so stumped by.

[A]

Yeah, I get that.

[B]

Okay, so now we kind of get to the phase that you're in with little one, like post writing, pre pub.

[A]

Yeah, this isn't good for me.

[B]

The book is done.

[A]

But.

[B]

And you're like, I guess, like you're kind of marketing it. But like you're kind of in that weird song and dance pre sale mode where like, I guess some early people can read it. But like, there's only so much you can do in here, right?

[A]

Yeah, I just got galleys a couple days ago. They just arrived. This is not a good stage for me. But I will tell you what helps. It is that I wrote about this in my substack last week. But I. When it's first out in the world and like there are NetGalley advanced copies available, or there are a few other advanced copies around, I become obsessed with reading the reviews. Like, obsessed. I can't think of anything else. You know, I go to sleep thinking about it. I wake up. The first thing I do is I refresh NetGalley. I refresh Goodreads, which is weird because this is generally something I don't do. But in the beginning, I cannot stop thinking about it. It is incredibly distracting. For example, I was working on book three a couple weeks ago and I'll just be like in the middle of a paragraph and I'll be like, oh, I gotta go check NetGalley for the 17th time today. Which is not healthy and just takes so much time away from my life. So when I went to the Outer Banks, I said, the moment your car turns onto Highway 12, which is the main highway on Hatteras, you are not checking them one more time ever again.

[B]

Ever again. Not just while you're there.

[A]

Well, yeah. Like I. Just the other day, for the first time since January 2024, I like looked at Amazon reviews of such a bad influence. I have absolutely no idea why other than I wanted to hurt my own feelings. But beyond that, I have not looked at a single thing. So I've cut myself off, I've gone cold turkey and I feel free. I feel free. Please be nice. To me, if you're on there reviewing.

[B]

But if not, will you stay free? Like, once you cut yourself off, are you done? Or.

[A]

I remember with such a bad influence, I did this. I cut myself off and then, like, I don't mean to, like, make light of this term, but, like, relapsed a little bit. Like, then I was like, oh, I have to look again. Because it is incredibly addictive. Like, that's what it feels like. It feels compulsive, addictive. And so I've cut myself off and I immediately feel better. I haven't looked in a week and a half. I hope I won't look again. I'll see the Goodreads rating, I'll see all the things, but I feel better. Like, it feels empowering to me not to look. So that helps. And I'm feeling better. But, like, I was feeling horrible, so. And it wasn't because I was reading bad reviews. There were super good reviews, but sometimes even the good ones, I'm like, obsessive. Like, oh, they didn't notice this, or why didn't they comment on this? Or that wasn't what I meant to do. You know, it's just like, it's not good. So anyway, how do you feel during this time?

[B]

I feel bad for a different reason. Again, I think this is a hard time. I feel bad because I'm so impatient. I'm impatient and I'm like, I finished the book. I did my part. Like, now I want applause, you know, I want it to be out there. And so I lose my mind in a different flavor. I do remember with the Christmas Orphans Club, I was looking at reviews pretty compulsively because I just wanted signal input. I wanted to know what was going to happen. It didn't feel negative for me in the same way that it felt for you. Like, I was just like. I was like, okay, let's get going. Let's go. Like, I'm the dad getting ready to leave for a road trip. Like, I'm like, come on.

[A]

You didn't find it distracting, though? Like, I found it so hard to focus just knowing that I could have access to that every second of the day.

[B]

No, I. I don't. I don't know. And then that compulsion went away immediately once the book came out, because all I was looking for was trying to read the tea leaves.

[A]

Right? Yes, that is what it is also. Yeah.

[B]

And so, yeah, I was really impatient. But I do think the face is really necessary because I do think it takes some of my insecurity about the book about the text, and it gives me distance to then just be able to be straight up excited and be able to promote it in a way that I maybe would be more tentative about if it was like, okay, you finished the book. Tomorrow it comes out.

[A]

Yeah. It's almost like it really is gradual. Like, at first, there's one review a day, and then there's two, and then, you know, you kind of realize that there's gonna be more and more, hopefully, and you can't really control of it. I do want to ask you, though, did you find that, like, the reading of the tea leaves? Because a common thing in publishing is that you shouldn't read the tea leaves and you cannot read the tea leaves. Did you find it was helpful? Like, did you find that. Okay, no, it was accurate or.

[B]

Or, like, it was just, for me, the only thing that existed. I don't know. I mean, because I think what I was looking for was, how big will this book be? And I don't think early reviews necessarily are in any way indicative of that.

[A]

Yeah. I will also say, like, for me, I feel a lot more pressure with this book for it to be successful. And so I think that was part of my obsessive looking is I'm like, if it's not getting enough early reviews, if it's not getting enough positive early reviews, then I'm gonna fail. And I should prepare myself because I'm gonna disappoint my publisher, and they're not gonna want my next book. And, like, on and on it goes, and I imagine. I don't know. Did you feel that type of pressure with your first book?

[B]

Oh, an incredible amount of pressure. Because it felt like these people have invested in me, and these people believe in me, and I don't want to let them down. Like, I almost feel more comfortable disappointing myself, but I need to please other people.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. I understand that.

[B]

Okay. I mean, I feel like we're skipping some phases in between, but, like, what about the book comes out and you are heavily marketing it? You are maybe doing book events to promote it. Like, that kind of early days of the book coming out.

[A]

I mean, I only have the one experience to speak to here, but I was, like, so happy. You know, I was so thrilled. I love events. I love talking to readers. And there's also this type of relief. I don't know if you experienced this with the Christmas Orphans Club, but once it was out in the world, I just felt like, okay, it's out. You know, it's gonna. It's gonna have the trajectory it's gonna have. And also something that I hope to carry forth to this publication experience in February is I was so deeply in Little One at that point. Like, so deeply. I spent every single day working on this book that it was almost like I was very detached from such a bad influence. You know, it was. I was able to be like, I'm so excited to go talk about this and share it with people. But really, my creative energy, my brain, my day to day hours are going towards Little One. And so that's what I hope to have with book three at this experience because I think it saved me a lot of heartache because I had made that decision not to look at reviews, which helped me immensely. But also all my energy was going to this other thing anyway, so I was writing all the time and editing and revising. How about for you? You know what's funny? This actually ties into my next thing because I have been feeling super, like, reflective lately. And I was listening to our 2023 goals episode. Oh. And maybe it wasn't that episode, but I was listening to something. Maybe I was listening to another Goals episode. And you said, like, I lost my mind after my book came out. Does that seem true to you?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I lost my mind in the lead up to it coming out. I lost my mind a little bit after it came out. Generally, I feel like it comes out. I feel like 10. Like, I feel that is the part I've been waiting for. It is so invigorating to be getting tagged in people who are buying the book, seeing the book in places, reading the book. Like, to be doing events for the book is amazing. And we've talked about this before that I, for better or for worse, I don't feel like I write for myself. You know, like, if the world ended and I was on a desert island, would I still write? I don't know. I think that I write because I identify first and foremost as a reader. And the respect and admiration I have for telling stories and, like, entertaining people and, like, being just sucked into a book is like, one of my favorite experiences in life. And so in order to, like, give that to somebody else is like the most noble thing within my skill set that I can imagine. Like, unfortunately, I cannot cure cancer. So, like, we have to take some things off the table. And so I am writing for other people in that way. And so having it out in the world is like, oh, my gosh, this is what I've been working for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I think it can allow it to also hurt more because it's like I don't have the closed loop interior satisfaction of like, I did this for myself. And there is some of that of like, with my first book, just proving to myself that I could write a book which I didn't know before that. And like having it be published was its own reward. But in some ways, like, I am writing for other people and for their enjoyment of the book.

[A]

Yeah. So then what's the flip side of that then?

[B]

The flip side is that I had what were probably completely unrealistic expectations. I really thought that I might be able to get the bottom spot on the New York Times bestseller list. I thought for sure I could get on the USA Today bestseller list. I didn't get either. And it wrecked me in the way I was checking those things every week. And then also I feel like, specifically to my book, there was this weird thing with my book because my book came out at the end of September, but it was a Christmas book where it was like people were like, oh, I'm so excited to read this in December. So it felt like it was like, oh, it launched. But now there was like this peak of right after publication. And then there was this valley of all of October and some of November before people were actually in holiday mode. So it was like, oh, my book is out here. People are excited, but they're not reading it yet. And like, that was kind of a mind fuck for me. Well, let's take an ad break then. Let's get to your final thing.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

All right. Did we talk about your last thing? What. What is your last thing?

[A]

My last thing was just I'm in this very reflective mode. And I think partially it's because of the time of year, the season's changing back to school energy. And I think partially it's because I just had this trip to the beach and we stayed in this house that I had stayed in with my family in 2021. And it was the same exact house. And at that time, I was only a few months into writing a book for the first time, and that book would eventually become Little One. And I sat on that same deck and I wrote on my laptop, and I had literally no idea what would happen. I was still months and months and months away from anyone reading my work, from having an agent, from anything. And so to be there four years later and have every aspect of my career different, you know, it was so.

[B]

What a cool experience.

[A]

It was very emotional. And, yeah, I just felt very reflective and very grateful because sitting there in 2021, it wasn't like I was writing that thinking, like, in four years, my whole career will be different and I'll be working on my third book. And I didn't even have the concrete dreams. Like, I wasn't even there yet. And so I felt just very grateful for everything. And when I'm in that mode, when I'm in a reflective mode, I journal a lot. But I also tend to, like, go read back and listen to episodes because as we've talked about, there's such a time capsule of things. And so I listened to the beginning of the year, the 2025 goals episode. But I also went back this morning and I listened to the 2023 goals episode where we talked about how we did in 2022. And it was fascinating to listen to both of us. Like, you were. I mean, just little things. Like you were talking about your friend getting Ruby the puppy. That was new. You were on your last edits for the Christmas Orphans Club. And you were talking about how difficult you were finding them. I think you called them a mind fuck. And that was really fascinating to me because to me, like my brain kind of re engineered that experience for you as like everything being easy, you know, that makes sense. Like hearing it. I don't know. And so I was like, oh, actually at every point of this process, it's difficult. I had just been on my solo trip to Scotland.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

We were just about to close on our house. And so I was wondering, I guess if you go back and listen to old episodes ever, if there's anything specifically you do when you're in a very reflective mood as I am right now.

[B]

You know, I've never gone back and listened to old episodes outside of, you know, the context of like needing to listen to the Goals episode to figure out what the goals were. Although I have started taking better notes in my notes app so that I don't even need to go back and listen. I'm sure I would feel tender about it. I think the ones that are too close I almost find cringy. So I listen to the episode to QA it before it comes out and then I never listen again. I think with almost no exceptions. I love that the time capsule of it exists. It's so wild to me that I've been doing this for seven and a half years, which is fully like a fifth of my life. That's wild. Like I have a record of a fifth of my life. And so I have this vision of, you know, my 80 year old self. Here's hoping I make it there. I have this vision of my 80 year old self going back and listening from the beginning. But right now I know I've never gone back and listened to anything, but I love knowing that it's there.

[A]

Yes. I only really do it with the Goals episodes because there's such a quick slice of time. You were also talking about how you had just quit consulting.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To do this full time. And I don't know, it's just sometimes it feels like with like a creative career, a career where you're piecing together a bunch of different things, you're just flopping through time and space, you know, like, it's like I'm just trying to pay my bills next month. Like I really would like it to be from this, but I don't know how realistic that is. It all feels very precarious. Like it can disappear tomorrow, which it totally could, especially with publishing. But I don't know to go back and like hear how hard you worked. How hard we've both worked is like, I don't know, it was just, it was really meaningful. I suggested if you ever are on a long walk and you think you can do it or want to once in a while.

[B]

I will get DMs from people who have gone back and listened to the entire back catalog of, of the podcast and they will DM me. And, you know, I guess they've gotten up to the point around where I started writing the book and they will say something very nice of like, oh my gosh, I'm listening to the podcast. And you know, this would probably be in 2021 pre Olivia, when I was first starting to write the book and I was talking about it and I had no idea what was going to happen and I was kind of just doing it as a side project thing. And they're like, and oh my gosh, it's so cool that that book exists now. And like, you did it. And I think, you know, maybe sounded not that confident in it or really uncertain about what the future would hold. And you know, them listening, knowing what happened is really cool. So I am excited at some point to do that, but I, I don't know why. I, I don't, I don't feel ready. Like, I feel nervous or anxious even thinking about going back and listening to them.

[A]

You're right. It's just, it's a very, it's a very tender experience. I guess it actually makes me realize how vulnerable it is to even just say your goals out loud. Yeah, like, it's, it's really, I mean, we're really putting ourselves out there in that moment.

[B]

You know, what has been really fun and nostalgic for me in a smaller way is having the five year journal your inspiration. And every year around this time, I get to relive the lead up to my first book coming out, which was the first year I had my five year journal, and kind of all of those feelings of anxiety and uncertainty and then like, oh, the launch is here and it's really lovely and I think it adds so much more nuance to, oh yeah, like I forgot I was feeling that way or oh, like I've rewritten this differently in the present than reading how I was actually feeling about it at the time. I found that really lovely. And also there's all sorts of little things that I think would otherwise have just gotten lost to time, but I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot about this part, or oh yeah, like that was fun.

[A]

Yes, I totally agree. I also love Using that as a way to check in.

[B]

Shall we get to my final thing?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So my final thing. Have you seen the personal curriculum trend across the Internet?

[A]

Only because of the Facebook group. Someone asked about it.

[B]

Oh, I missed that. It's been a very big trend, I think originated on TikTok, but I've also seen it a lot on Substack. So I love the idea of people kind of making it can be as intensive or unintensive as you want a curriculum for themselves to learn things. And I've seen, you know, all sorts of goals. So, you know, sometimes it's. I saw one that was learning about the history of the Windsor spares. So Prince Harry, Princess Margaret, past generations of the non set to inherit the throne siblings, which I was like, oh, that's really interesting. I've seen others that's like, you know, very specific periods of US History, British history, other countries history. So, like, very specific historical ones that are kind of, you know, reading different nonfiction and fiction texts around that. I've seen people bring in movies, shows, like, all sorts of things. And then some of them are more fun. Some of them are like fiber arts, like learning how to crochet, you know, so it could be things that you would take as a college course, but it could also be just like more fun personal interests. And so I wanted to ask you, for this fall, if you had to create your own curriculum, either of things you wish to learn about or things that you were already doing that you are going to just give a college course name to, what would say the three classes you're taking be?

[A]

I've been thinking about this a lot, actually.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

Separately from the idea of personal curriculum. But it will tie together when we get to the books. Number one would be a course called Shipwrecks, Castaways and Survival at Sea.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And it is all about surviving extreme circumstances on the high sea across history.

[B]

You do love this. The Isola of it. I do a little bit. In the Wild Dark Shore. Like, this is a Olivia mentor niche interest.

[A]

Yep, I'm there. I want to know everything about it. I just read this book, Actually, I read it twice, technically, because I read it and then listened to it within, like three days. It's A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhurst, which is a nonfiction book that came out this year, all about this woman and her husband who are in a sailboat without radio because they really wanted it to be like it was in the olden days. This is in the 70s, and they ended up drifting in a raft for 117 days, surviving.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And it is the wildest true story. One of them, by the way, couldn't swim. Why? Just. Yep.

[B]

That seems like poor planning it.

[A]

Yeah. She says basically she thinks she would figure it out if in the situation where it's either that or she dies. And I was like, that's a bold choice you took. But she survived, and I was gripped the entire way through. And then we also got the wager, which you've probably seen everywhere. It's also nonfiction. It's very different. It's about a ship in the 1700s. I want to read that. Maybe I'll watch Castaway. I was like, what is that? Tom Hanks movie? I want to find more. All the information. I read it all. Okay. What else? Tell me yours while I think of some other ones.

[B]

So the first course that I will be taking is Supes, Old classics and new favorites. I take this every fall, winter recurring credit. You know, just making soup, Right?

[A]

Yep. Solid. Solid.

[B]

I wouldn't say that this. This one is really just taking something I'm already doing and making it into a class. My next one is I will be taking watercolor, Light and shadow. I specifically, in my watercolor practice, would like to understand those elements better and how to leverage them kind of across a variety of subjects. I feel like that is the part that baffles me the most in painting, and so I would like to dig deeper there. And the third course I am hopefully taking is a course called Family An Outsider's Perspective. As I get ready to turn my attention to book three, which I would like to be a family dramedy, I have kind of a list of books that I've been saving that are family novels with somebody coming into the family from outside or an outsider's perspective on that family. So I'm thinking of books like she Regrets Nothing by Andrea Dunlop about this sister, cousin. I can't remember finding out she's part of this very elite, Gossip Girly, rich family, rereading books like Vacationland by Meg Mitchell Moore about the illegitimate child of a wealthy family who kind of puts herself in their path. Books like Pineapple street, where there is a perspective there from the son's wife who comes from a different background. She comes from Providence, Rhode island, into this very wealthy Brooklyn family. I think maybe hello Beautiful by Ann Napolitano would fit this with the guy coming in, marries into this family of four sisters. So, yeah, I'm doing a lot of research, reading potentially about a certain type of family novel.

[A]

Okay, this sounds great. Good Balance.

[B]

What other courses have you come up with for yourself?

[A]

Okay, I have two. One is just knife skills 101.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

I want someone to walk into my kitchen and be like, how is she doing that? Like, she's cutting so fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so skillfully, you know, like, I've never seen an onion chopped that way.

[B]

I think I've had this saved for literal years, but I think there is on Masterclass, there is some lessons about this within. I think it's maybe in Jacques Pepin's.

[A]

Masterclass, I'm gonna have to sit myself down and do it because I'm ready to learn. And then the third one is. I don't know what it's going to be called, the career of a writer or something. Like, I really like learning about authors, long term careers and evolutions. So, for example, I am now obsessed with Allegra Goodman because I liked Isola, which I loved Isla, as we talked about, but I read another one of her books called Sam, which I have had for literally four years, I think, in my home, and I just happened to bring it on vacation. It is so wildly different than Isla. Like, so different that I am fascinated now by her. I want to know everything about her career. She's also written like a dozen books maybe, So I want to learn about where she went to school, her first book, her second book, her third book. I think this is also inspired by our conversation about notes on your sudden disappearance. I just find the trajectory and sustainability of people's careers as authors fascinating, and so I want to know everything there is to know.

[B]

Can I offer you a podcast recommendation that you may or may not want to take me up on?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Over the weekend, I listened to an episode of the Writers on Writing podcast with Bruce Holsinger, who wrote Culpability, which you just read as a guest. I've not read Culpability, but I really liked his book two books ago called the Gifted School. And it was all about his career, which I thought was very interesting, where he's an academic, he is a medievalist, teaching.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, I think at Virginia University maybe, or University of Virginia. And his first two books were historical mysteries or historical thrillers. And then he kind of flamed out of that where they wouldn't take another. So then he pivoted to contemporary fiction and he wrote the Gifted School. He didn't publish his first book until he was in his 40s. And just hearing kind of the trajectory of his career from somebody that from the outside would be like, oh, yes, I think he's been fairly successful. He has this. Oprah's Book Club even before that. I think his previous two contemporary fiction books have been very well received. And hearing the ins and outs of his career, I was like, this is very interesting. I knew nothing about this.

[A]

As someone who's read all three of his contemporary fiction books but did not know that. I can't wait to listen to this. Sometimes I catch myself thinking, like, I'm 32. I'm past my point. You know, like, if I haven't hit it big now, I'm never going to, which is so ridiculous. I mean, it's ridiculous, but, like, you see someone like R.F. kuang, who's, like, barely 30 and has, like, you know, and that's like, the exception to the exception to the exception. But, like, there's. I think there's just this sense of, like, every book you have that isn't, like, the biggest thing in the world. You're, like, somehow that much closer to utter failure, which isn't really how it works. But anyway, I'm gonna listen to that. Thank you very much. That sounds great.

[B]

Can I also offer one more thing that I think would fit into this curriculum that is fast and I think both you and listeners would really like. I got this newsletter last night that I thought was fascinating. Do you notice how I didn't even wait for you to say yes? I was like, I'm telling you. Anyway, doesn't matter to me. Got this newsletter last night from Caroline Kala d'. Onofrio. I'm not positive that I'm saying that right. Apologies.

[A]

Oh, I think.

[B]

I think I read this and the newsletter. The subject line was the meanest words I've ever read. And it was a collection of mean reviews about books that we would now consider to be classics. The reviews are so mean. Like, I'll give you an example. This is a New York times review from 1985 about the Handmaid's Tale. And it says, the writing of the Handmaid's Tale is undistinguished, ordinary, if not glaringly so. This is a serious defect, unpardonable, maybe for the genre. A future that has no language invented for it, lacks a personality. That must be why, collectively, it is powerless to scare.

[A]

Wow. First of all, I love her newsletter. This is similar to why I keep a quote from a really horrible review of Long Bright river by Liz Moore, which I think is a perfect book. I keep it on my bulletin board, and sometimes I just look at that sentence and I think, yeah, we'll be all right. Like, it'll be okay. It's crazy.

[B]

Well, I'm very excited for our collective college course load and I cannot wait to see. I'm going to after this go to the Facebook group and see that thread that I missed. Okay. Shall we get out of things and into end matter?

[A]

Yes. What are you obsessed with?

[B]

I'm obsessed with the song Man I Need by Olivia Dean, which I've also subsequently learned that all of TikTok is obsessed with. But I'm not on TikTok, so I didn't know that. So I requested that this be played at Mahjong the other week and my friend Jess was like, oh yeah, the TikTok song. And then over the weekend I got sucked into an Instagram reels rabbit hole and it is on every single reel and I will watch all of them. I don't know why this song does something to me. Like when I hear it, it like creates this chemical reaction in me that I'm like, it just like hits the right pleasure centers in my brain.

[A]

Yeah, I really like her. I wasn't that familiar but I went on like a two hour drive the other day and I just listened to her Spotify page and it was so good. Everything is so good and vibey somebody.

[B]

That I feel like Spotify has been trying to shove down my throat in my like Discover weeklies and in any of the playlists they make for me. And none of her past songs, like I don't dislike them but none of them have like quite hit for me that I knew her name. And then this song I don't know, like designed in a lab for me and apparently all of TikTok, apparently it's hitting everyone's pleasure centers in their brain.

[A]

I'm getting it confused in my head with the nice to each other because that was also TikTok moment. But I know it's not the same one, but good for her. Olivia's success.

[B]

The power of Olivia's do you feel charitable to other Olivia's? I feel like I don't like when other Beccas do anything. I want to be the only Becca.

[A]

I do feel charitable to other Olivia's. The only thing is that I get really annoyed how popular of a name it is now with children because it's like it's been like the number two most popular name. So like in my generation there really aren't that many Olivia's, but I just stopped populating the earth with so many. Like let us have our individuality please.

[B]

Like my friend Molly is always really excited to meet Another Molly who's not a dog.

[A]

I have a cousin named Molly, a really little cousin. It's a cute name, but no.

[B]

I went to a dinner a couple weeks ago for my friend's birthday and there was another Becca there, and I was like, so we will be nemeses.

[A]

No, I really don't meet that many Olivia's. To be honest, I don't have, like, any friends named Olivia at all. So maybe I do harbor a secret hatred and that's why I don't have any in my life.

[B]

Maybe. What are you obsessed with?

[A]

I'm obsessed with the movie Are youe There, God? It's me, Margaret. Oh, so cute. It's so cute and cozy. I never read this book. I think it was just a little bit before me, so I really didn't have any interest in the movie, but I wanted to watch something cozy last night. It came on. Whatever. I watched it. It's so delightful, so good. It's so cozy. I know I keep saying that, but it really just is. I didn't realize that it was. For some reason, I thought it was a modern version of the story, so I didn't realize it was set in the 70s, but that just made it so good. Like the settings, the furniture, the clothing. I think Rachel McAdams is incredible in this. Like, she is a highly underrated actor, I think. I think she's very talented. I thought the kid actors were also so good. Oh, it just made me. I don't know, it just made me think about my younger self and kids and with such. We keep saying the word tender this episode, but it's such a sweet movie. I really suggest it.

[B]

I saw it in theaters and felt very heart explodey about it.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good one.

[B]

All right. We must get into reading because you have done some damage.

[A]

I have, but I will say I was strategic. And I've tried to pepper in my thoughts on a lot of these throughout the episode, so I won't rehash all of that.

[B]

We love a strategic podcast host.

[A]

You know, I'm really doing my best over here. So I read Finding Grace by Loretta Rothschild, which I already talked about in depth, so I won't go over that again. I also read Maggie or A Man and a Woman Walk Into a Bar by Katie Yee. There are no chapters, and so that I struggled with that. I would almost say I thought it was a little too literary for me.

[B]

Interesting maybe.

[A]

I found the sentence level writing lovely. Like, I loved it. So much of it hit me right in the Soul. But, like, the plotlessness of it I struggle with a little bit. And of course, I read it right after Finding Grace, which is maybe the most plotty book I've ever read. But yeah, yeah, I don't know.

[B]

I found Maggie to be so similar in voice to Catherine Newman, a younger and obviously Asian Catherine Newman that has that, like, very wry internal monologue of the character where it's really a slice of life novel, but, like, it's differentiated by the voice.

[A]

I could totally see that. I could totally see that.

[B]

And the children are obviously younger in Maggie than in a Kathryn Newman book.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. I liked it. I liked it.

[B]

I don't want to say it because I don't want to spoil it for other people, but with this book, my biggest problem with it was that there was one scene that I expected to happen that never happened, and I felt so cheated.

[A]

I also read, like I mentioned, Sam by Allegra Goodman. This was a Jenna's Book Club pick. I want to say one of the first. It came out a handful of years ago. It's obviously a very simple title. The photo is just a very close up photo of a girl. I've owned it for many years. It. I never really latched onto it because I think it's because it's like I didn't know what it was about. I was like, oh, this is just about.

[B]

Is it about boxing?

[A]

It's just about a girl in her early 20s. No, it's so it's a coming of age story about a girl named Sam and she really likes rock climbing.

[B]

Rock climbing.

[A]

To say it's about rock climbing would be wrong. It's a coming of age story through and through. I read it because someone had messaged me a while ago and said, I think you'll really like Sam if you like Isola. It's very different and I cannot emphasize enough how different these books are. I loved this book. I adored it. The character of Sam is so beautifully written. I just loved it. I feel like this is an underrated gem. Of course, it was a Janice Book Club pick. So I'm like, underrated, but oh my gosh, I just loved this book so much and I highly suggest it. Another book I read was A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhurst, which I also talked about. I talked about the plot of that. I loved this so much that I made my mom read it the day after I read it at the beach. Then on the drive back from North Carolina, we listened to the audiobook of it. It's mind blowing. Mind Blowing. But if you're sensitive to turtles as food, oh, maybe. Maybe skip it. And then I didn't know that that.

[B]

Could be a trigger that I had to worry about.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, I figured I'd mention it. Finally, I read Female Fantasy by Iman Hariri Kia and I read that on the final day of vacation in the pool. I wanted something lighter. This comes out in two weeks. This is about a woman who is, like, a mega fan of this Romantasy series. She writes fan fiction. She's obsessed with. Obsessed with the male main character to the point where, like, none of her relationships or boyfriends can live up to him. And when she finds out that he is based on a real person, she tries to find him. This is also very fun because it's interspersed with chapters from the Romantasy novel, the fictional Romantasy novel that the main character is obsessed with. There's a little bit of everything. I read this in one day. It was very fun. And if you like mer people, you may enjoy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay, that's it. What did you read?

[B]

I read the Wilderness by Angela Flournoy, which has been one of my most anticipated books of the year, because, you know, I always want more friendship fiction. And this is about a group of. I think it's pitched as five black female friends. I would really say it's about four black female friends and then kind of one on the outside, and it's told over the span of, I think, 20 years. And I ended up liking this, but I didn't love it. I had some difficulty with the structure of the book. So it's told from four and then even five POVs, and it both jumps forward and backward in time. And the chapters are pretty chunky. So, you know, for the first few chapters, you're kind of getting like, isolated vignettes about these women, and you're not quite sure how they even connect at all. And then sometimes you're moving forward in time and sometimes you're moving backwards. So I found that a little difficult. But I liked it more and more the further I read. And then there was a wild, I guess, twist or element added in kind of the last 15%. And I was, like, about to go to bed, and I was like, well, I can't go to bed now. I have to finish this. So it was a, like, not a love for me. I thought that the character work was really beautiful. And, like, all of these women felt so fully fleshed out and, like, it was very fun because there was a lot of the different pop culture or Historical moments of like. Because it's told over 20 years, which I really enjoyed. But I guess it dealt more with the strife between this friend group than establishing, like, why they were friends in the first place. And I found that I kind of missed the first part. And also it was more focused on the individuals versus, like the collective unit of them as a friend group in many times. So, yeah, it was. I don't know. I would be curious what you think and I think you would really appreciate the character work in the sentence level writing, which is really beautiful. It's nominated for the National Book Award. I'm really curious to see what more people say about this one. It just came out, I think last week, so fairly new, newly released.

[A]

Me too. I'm seeing it everywhere. I'm definitely going to buy it next time I'm in a store.

[B]

Yeah. And then I read totally and completely fine by Alyssa Sussman, who wrote funny you should ask, which was one of my favorite books from 2021. Not positive when that one came out. This is a cousin novel, sister novel to that book. So this is about the sister character of the famous actor who is widowed and she, she ends up having a one night stand with a much younger famous actor who then she thinks it's a one night stand, but he, like comes back into her life. This was really fun. I have not read a contemporary romance in a minute. And so this felt like kind of like a fun return to form for me where I was like, oh, yeah, I do love this kind of book. My main gripe with it is was that all of the steamy scenes were fade to black, which I don't think that, funny you should ask, was fade to black, if I'm remembering correctly. So at first I thought it was just because it was like the sex scenes were happening in the first half of the book. So I was like, oh, they're probably like fading to black. And then like more towards the midpoint they'll be like full scenes. And no, every time it was fade to black and I was like, huh. And it was good. Like all the lead up to it was like really steamy. And then I was like, huh, Why'd we cut off?

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Yeah, so, yeah, enjoyed that as well.

[A]

Well, if you want to talk to us about any of the many things we've discussed here today, you can join us in the Bat and Paper Facebook group. You can also join us in the BFF formerly known as Geneva Group, which is under Baton Paper podcast. We are on Instagram @BatonPaper podcast. I am on Instagram and substack@oliviamentor and you can pre order my novel Little One right now. It is the most impact thing you can do to support authors and I would appreciate it so very much.

[B]

Definitely go do that. I'm on Instagram beccam freeman and my substack is at becca freeman substack.com Bye bye.