← Bad On Paper
Bad On Paper
September 2025 Three Things
01:21:11
What do we want? Things! When do we want them? Now! It’s time to talk about big pop culture moments, focus tools, and what we’re excited about for fall. Olivia’s Things Taylor Swift getting engaged What’s on our Q4 Radar Our Fall...
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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Olivia, Mentor.
- [00:23]
A
And it is our September Three things.
- [00:27]
B
Yes, I'm in a very fall mood today. It is the most beautiful, crisp, cool morning, and I have some fall ish. Three things for us.
- [00:36]
A
Oh, I'm excited. I only have two things.
- [00:39]
B
That's okay. Okay.
- [00:41]
A
I just. I needed to come clean immediately. I've never had only two things before.
- [00:45]
B
I accept. I think one of mine we can kind of share.
- [00:48]
A
Okay, great. Before we get into that, though, tell me your high.
- [00:52]
B
My high. And I should preface now that I do have a bit of a cold, which I will get to in my low. So I'm sorry if my voice sounds a little wonky, but my high is that I somehow managed to get a blurb for little one from Liz Moore, who is, like, one of my heroes, as Bound and Paper listeners will know. And I have been so, like, flattered by every single blurb I've gotten. But this one was really special to me, and I wanted to talk about it because I think it's a good lesson in just believing in yourself enough to take a chance. And so the background of this blurb story is that I truly had zero plans to reach out to Liz Moore for a blurb. I have no connection to her. We have never met. We have never interacted on social media. She does not know I exist. Like, I had no email, I had no contact, I had nothing. And it never crossed my mind to ask her for a blurb because she is Liz Moore. And I was like, I don't know. To me, it's like asking Stephen King or something for a blurb. Like, that's what it feels like to me. So I wasn't going to. It didn't even enter my brain space. And then I read this interview maybe, I don't know, maybe six to eight months ago, a long time ago. And in it, she was talking about some of her experiences growing up with body image and food. And they were so similar to some of mine. I mean, like, I could have written some of the answers myself that I just felt this gut instinct to reach out to her, and I still didn't know how. I didn't know, like, how I was gonna find the contact, how I was gonna cold email her. I didn't know, but I just had this gut instinct that maybe she would like my book since it deals with some of those themes as well. And so cut to, like, six months later. I spent weeks and weeks formulating this email from like, my soul. Basically, I was, this has to be the best email I've ever sent. It has to be perfect. And I drafted it for many weeks. I was confident in it. I managed to find. Find an email address for her anyway, so I had to hype myself up to hit send for so long, even though I didn't know if it would even land in the right place. And I kept thinking it wouldn't. And I woke up the next morning and she had replied and she said, I want to read this book. And I honestly, like Olivia, I have chills. My soul left my body. I was in bed, I woke up and I just screamed. And Jake was like, what is happening? I screamed and screamed and. And then it occurred to me that I had to send Liz Moore my book.
- [03:39]
A
Yes, that is the sequence of events that would happen when she responds positively to your email asking her to read your book.
- [03:47]
B
But, like, that was not going to happen. You know, in my mind, I was just one of hundreds of people emailing her, you know, and I didn't go through my agent or my editor. I just sent the email directly to this email address. Hope for the best. And I actually, this is very funny. I texted my friend and I said, oh my gosh, look at this reply. And it's like two sentences from Liz Moore, right? And I was like, I'm gonna frame this. And so as a joke, my friend actually framed the email reply. Like it's this tiny frame. And then I got it and I was like, I'm gonna have to hide this until if she responds to me, because it will. It will just sit there haunting me. Anyway, it made me laugh. I was like, oh, someone gets how important this is, how, like, life changing it is. Honestly, I kept telling Jake the fact that she liked my email was like, I'll take that. Like, she liked my email. That's thrilling. So anyway, months went by and I kind of thought, okay, I don't think this is going to happen. I had to sort of do a nudge where you're like, hey, you know, the deadline is this. And I didn't get a reply for a couple weeks. And. And then Monday morning, I had just written in my journal and I had said, I'm trying not to think about the fact that Liz Moore hasn't gone back to me. She probably won't, because why would she possibly have enough time to read this? Or she probably hates it. And then she's just gonna say she didn't have enough time. And anyway, and she had replied and she gave Me a blurb. And she said, I loved this novel. Which, oh my God.
- [05:22]
A
A, you gotta now you gotta frame the follow up blurb. I know, I, Liz Morris, I never welcome at your home because you have this like shrine to her in your office.
- [05:33]
B
I'm literally crying right now. I'm tearing up. But I started crying immediately. And like, I can't explain how close I was to not sending that email multiple times because I just was so sure that this would not be good enough for her, that she wouldn't be interested in it, that she would read it but hate it. And I would, you know, be ashamed that I had even tried. But I just had this gut instinct and I followed it through and I was like, you just owe it to yourself to at least try. And I'm so grateful because she just not only just, sorry, this is a really long high. But I just wanted to share, I wanted to share the whole story because I just think it's so hard, you know, when you create something that you feel so strongly about it to give it to other people and to know that not everything is for everyone. And even your heroes, especially your heroes maybe might not like it. And this was the most direct example of that and that fear. And so for her to be generous enough to send a few words is just, oh, it means everything to me. So I can't believe it still. But anyway, if you're out there and you're like, I am scared to share my work with the world or whatever, or scared to ask for something, just, I don't know. If you have a gut instinct, follow it. And so, yeah, thank you, Liz Moore, and thank you to everyone who generously blurred my book. But I will never forget that series of events. And now I kept a flashcard over the small framed photo of the, the email on my desk because I was like, I can't look at this, like every single day. I can't think about this. But now I can see it and it makes me smile. So, yes, that is my high. It's a very big high.
- [07:25]
A
Oh, I'm so thrilled for you.
- [07:27]
B
Thank you. Thanks for listening to the whole long saga.
- [07:30]
A
Little one has been blessed by Liz Moore. If that isn't a call to action to go pre order it, I don't know what is. I, you know, Liz Moore loves this book.
- [07:40]
B
That's what she said. And I'm gonna choose to believe she.
- [07:44]
A
Has no incentive to lie.
- [07:46]
B
That's very true. Well, tell me your high.
- [07:49]
A
My high is that I just got back From Sicily like 36 hours ago, I was on a trip for my friend's 40th birthday with 11 people. And Sicily has been on the top of my travel wish list for years and years. So I'm so excited that it happened. It was gorgeous. I don't think I fully understood the climate. I was not expecting there to be cacti, which there were palm trees, cacti. And then I think I mentioned maybe I just said it on Instagram or somewhere else, but we had a mix up with the original house we were supposed to stay in, and we ended up getting moved to a different house. And the new house was on a nature preserve called the Vendicari Nature Preserve. And there were flamingos there. And I love flamingos. I feel like flamingos have always been a very important animal to me in a way I can't fully explain. Like, as a teenager, I thought lawn flamingos were very funny. Like, I've just always had a flamingo thing. And I've seen flamingos in the wild once in Mexico. And I. When we got the link to this new house, I was like, oh, my gosh, how cool would it be to see flamingos? And when I said that, I, in my head was picturing five or six flamingos. Olivia. There were flocks of flamingos. There were hundreds of flamingos in this bay in the backyard of our house. Kind of a little bit at a distance you could see them, but they were a little bit far away. There were hundreds of them there every day. It was incredible.
- [09:24]
B
I'm so happy for you. What a spiritual experience.
- [09:28]
A
It was a spiritual experience. I wish I'd spent more time with them. We had a very go trip. We were doing a lot. We rented a boat one day. We went wine tasting. We went to a beach club. Like, we were very on the go. So I wish I could have spent more time with my boys. I don't know why, but in my head, they are a male plural.
- [09:47]
B
My boys is. I like that. I like that description.
- [09:50]
A
Yeah, the trip was great. We spent five, five nights at this villa and then we spent two nights at this beach club hotel in Syracusa, which was also fantastic. It was just. It was a great trip.
- [10:01]
B
That sounds so fun and just like kind of adventurous while still being relaxing.
- [10:07]
A
Yeah, I will say, because I don't know, I don't think I'm gonna do a full newsletter about the trip. Overall, had a great experience. I will say the one negative or not negative, but the one like, neutral. I didn't find the food as impressive as I expected to. Everyone raves about, you know, when you think of Italy, I think of going for the food, and the food was fine. The villa was kind of in the middle of nowhere, and the closest town was a smaller town called Noto. We had one really great meal there at a restaurant called Mano. But outside of that, all of the food kind of felt like the faux fancy food that you would, like, expect. Expect an American tourist to want. Like, it was just not great. The best meals we had were. We hired a chef to come to the villa and cook one night. That was phenomenal. Another day we went wine tasting and there was like an Italian nonna at the vineyard who made us lunch. And that was great. Like, the homemade food was really good. But I found the restaurant food to be a little wah, wah.
- [11:07]
B
Maybe it was just an off week.
- [11:09]
A
Maybe the towns, the scenery, the flamingos, the swimming in random coves, like, the experience more than made up for it. Like, the trip was incredible. But I expected to be coming back, like, raving about the food experience, and I was like, oh, it was fine.
- [11:24]
B
Well, not quite a low, but. Do you have a low?
- [11:27]
A
I do have a low. I lost an AirPod on the flight to Italy. So, I mean, this is like petty complaint central right now. So there's a direct flight from JFK to Catania, which is the airport in Sicily, which is great. The flight leaves at 4:45pm, which is stupid. It's too early to go to sleep. Like, it just not a good time for a red eye. So I was trying to sleep on the flight because I was like, you will be so much happier if you even get a few hours of sleep on this flight. I know you don't sleep on overnight flights because you need to monitor things, but I was like, oh, my gosh, I will feel.
- [12:07]
B
Well, hey, I mean, I support sleeping on planes. I think it's the right choice.
- [12:10]
A
Yeah, I wasn't tired. Also, I'd just come from California, so my internal clock was even more screwed up. And so I was trying to sleep. And I didn't pack earplugs, so I had in AirPods, which, you know, don't all the way go in your ear when you're sleeping. Whatever. And so at one point, I, like, got up and I knocked it. And I swear it went through the crack in the seat to the row behind me. We looked for that sucker so hard. I also stayed on the plane after everyone was deboarding to go look in the row behind myself. I like, I picked up the seat. I Like, looked in the seat back pockets, I could not find this thing. I was positive it was there. I tried playing music at the loudest it would go because it still had some charge to see if I could hear it. This thing is gone.
- [13:00]
B
Oh no. So then you have to get a whole new set.
- [13:02]
A
I know. So now I am the parent of one orphaned AirPod.
- [13:08]
B
Yeah, it feels weird to throw it away, right? But like, what else is there to do? I know you need to. Like I was gonna say, you need to find someone who's lost the other one and I lost the left one. That seems too complicated because then you have to pair them and. Yeah, probably wouldn't work. Well, I'm sorry, that's.
- [13:27]
A
It was just so silly. Like, I felt like we were in a contained area. I should be able to find this.
- [13:32]
B
So then you didn't have headphones on the way back?
- [13:35]
A
I had the Bose over the ear ones too.
- [13:37]
B
Oh, okay.
- [13:38]
A
So I did have headphones on the way back.
- [13:40]
B
The best.
- [13:41]
A
But I need new AirPods.
- [13:44]
B
Well, I'm sorry, that's. I hate losing things. It's the worst feeling.
- [13:48]
A
It's fine. I'll live.
- [13:50]
B
But first the printer, now this.
- [13:52]
A
Oh my God, Olivia. I ordered a new printer. It's coming today. If I break this thing, I'm just not allowed to have printers anymore.
- [13:59]
B
Don't tell us or tell us whatever you want.
- [14:01]
A
No, it's sitting in the middle. It's going to sit in the middle of my living room. Like I do not care. It is not going back to that window.
- [14:07]
B
No, I support that 100%.
- [14:09]
A
Okay, tell me your low. I think we already got a preview.
- [14:13]
B
Yes, my low is that I have a cold, which I have had for a few days now. I'm actually feeling a little bit better this morning, but still, definitely not 100%. Especially because it is currently we're recording this on Monday morning, 10am I have been up since 3am because my brother and his girlfriend came to visit over the weekend and they had a 6am flight out of Albany. And so I told myself, I don't think going back to sleep is the right choice. I think I would have been even more miserable. So I. We got back at 5:30. I tidied the whole house. I did laundry, I changed the sheets. I was like, olivia, you power through like you've never powered through before. I made two breakfasts because I, you know, why not at that time? And I took a shower, an everything shower. I got into comfy clothes. I'm sitting here, I'VE had a lot of coffee and I'm just going to rest this afternoon because I Up until they got here, I had been working like very hard for a week and a half on both book two and book three trying to get stuff done as much as I could before they got here. Trying to get the house ready right before they got here. I woke up with a sore throat. It went downhill from there. I managed to have a really nice weekend, but I just, you know, when you just don't feel like yourself, you feel kind of gross. You're always sneezing like it's just. It wasn't ideal and so I feel very run down right now. But I'm here. I'm giving it my all. I hope I don't sound too slap happy in this episode, but maybe that will also add a certain something.
- [15:46]
A
I think people like a slap happy three things.
- [15:49]
B
I hope so. But yeah, so I think I'm on the on the upswing. But and now Jake is sick.
- [15:55]
A
Oh no.
- [15:57]
B
Yeah, it's going around so be safe out there.
- [16:01]
A
Well, let this be our transition into the things. Let's take a quick ad break and get into it. I have a lot of nesting energy right now. I just got back from my last big trip of the summer, I have no more travel plans on the horizon and I am ready to spend some time at home. And I want that home to be cozy. And maybe you have the same feeling, but you've been putting off putting some finishing touches on your space. Or maybe it's time to make some upgrades. And either way, Wayfair has everything you need to make your space cozier this fall. From comfy recliners to cozy throw blankets to autumn decor, even espresso makers so you can finally master your at home coffee game.
- [16:45]
B
I love using Wayfair to search for pieces with very specific measurements or details. They have so much variety that it is just the way to go. For example, I was searching for the certain type of wood holder to go next to our fireplace and Wayfair helped me find the exact right one and one that was in my budget. I Home decor shopping can be so overwhelming, but Wayfair makes it easy to find exactly what I'm looking for with their incredible filters that let me search by specific measurements, materials, colors and even price range. And they have fast and free shipping even on the big stuff. And in case you were wondering, yes, that does include dozens of life size skeleton options to decorate for Halloween. Which I know you're out there, I know you're out there. Life size skills, skeleton people, or even bigger than life size.
- [17:35]
A
So stop putting it off. Wayfair has everything you need to make this the best and coziest fall ever at your house. Whether that involves lots of seasonal decor, kitchen essentials to get you ready for that game watch, party, or an upgrade to your work from home setup. Or do all three all in one place. Cozify your space with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates. From comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor. Find it all for way less@wayfair.com that's W a Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Okay, Olivia, because I only have two things. I cede the floor to you to go first.
- [18:22]
B
I wanted to talk about the pop culture moment of the year, of course, which is, I would say, Taylor Swift getting engaged. I want to do a breakdown of a few different things. One, I want to know where you were when you found out what you were doing and how you found out. I love watching these videos of people finding out about the engagement. I find them so delightful for some reason. Tell me.
- [18:47]
A
Okay. I was in San Diego, and we were in the car on the way to breakfast, and my friend Peter, who in our group text is the designated person who lets us know when a celebrity dies or otherwise, has, like, big news texted in our group chat. Taylor and Travis just got engaged. And I was kind of like, how does he know that before I know that because I feel like because of the BOP Swifties group chat on I don't know what was formerly Geneva and is now the BFF app. I don't know how to refer to this anymore, but because of that group, I feel like I'm usually pretty in the know. And he just. He must have seen it the second it posted and he scooped it. So I went on Instagram. It was obviously the first thing that came up in my feed. And I told my friends Merit and Jess, who I was in the car with, and they were like. They didn't believe me. They were like, what? No. And I was like, no, it's on her Instagram. Like, it isn't a rumor.
- [19:44]
B
You got to be the talent.
- [19:45]
A
I got to break the news.
- [19:46]
B
Excellent.
- [19:47]
A
And, yeah. And then we went to breakfast and we were watching it unfold in real time and all the reactions to it and hearing from other friends about it, telling other friends. So. Yeah.
- [20:01]
B
Did you feel like people at the restaurant were talking about it as well?
- [20:05]
A
No, because it was a Tuesday morning at an outdoor restaurant and the only other person eating there was a middle aged man.
- [20:15]
B
So, okay, not his thing.
- [20:16]
A
He had an airpod in.
- [20:17]
B
You don't know.
- [20:18]
A
So he was maybe listening to us. I did not get the vibe that he was participating in this cultural moment.
- [20:26]
B
Okay. See, if I had been in public, I would have felt the urge to go up to every single person I saw and potentially experience the high of being the first one to tell them, okay, what about you?
- [20:39]
A
Where were you? What was your experience?
- [20:42]
B
I was sitting at my desk and I was doing pass pages for little one. I had been kind of avoiding it and I was in a very good groove. I had my little red pen, I had the window open, I had my phone to the side and I saw it light up with the text from my friend Martha, who is like a resident swifty. She knows all the things. And for whatever reason, I turned from my productivity and I looked at the text and she said in all caps, taylor and Travis are engaged. I freaked out. I then had to download Instagram because.
- [21:13]
A
You don't have it locked.
- [21:16]
B
So I was like, oh, my God, oh my God, I'm waiting. I download it, I look at it, I do the zoom into the ring, of course, which we'll talk about in a minute. And this was when the bookshelves were being made. So I throw open the door of my cottage. I run into our house. Jake is upstairs in his office working. We have two men working on the bookshelves. I'm like, Jake. I'm screaming to him because I'm like, he's not responding. And I'm like, taylor and Travis are engaged. No response. Then I turn to the two men working on the bookshelves and I'm like, taylor and Travis are engaged. One of them is like walking by me with a saw. He just smiles and nods.
- [21:52]
A
I'm like, he's like, this woman has lost it.
- [21:55]
B
And he was like the son of our contractor. So he was. I don't know, I think he's. He was like probably. Probably 18 or in his early 20s or something. And I was like, I thought he would care, but no reaction. So. And then I eventually run up the stairs to have face to face contact with Jake for this historical moment. And he just goes, great. That's all I get, great. And then I texted both of my family group.
- [22:17]
A
To be fair, it is news that has nothing to do with either of you personally.
- [22:21]
B
It's true, but I mean, it's like if a major celebrity dies, you Know you tell everyone, and everyone has a sort of like, oh, wow. But this, nothing. Anyway, I texted the news to both of my family group chats. My mom was the only one to reply. Literally, hours later, she said, they're engaged, question mark. I was like, God, no one cares about this. Before all of that, I did go to the batt on paper swifties group, which delivered, as it always does, with excitement. And, yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot of adrenaline. I found it very hard to focus. Next question for you. Sorry, we're just transitioning wildly here. What do you think of the ring?
- [23:02]
A
I think that it feels very fitting to what I imagine her taste is. It seems like antiquey. It seems like there's potentially a story behind it, which I can see her vibing with. It feels appropriately big, but not ostentatiously so that you could actually wear it on a regular basis without, I don't know, it being an insurance nightmare, taking somebody's eye out with it. So I assume she's happy with it. I like it for her. Happy. She's happy.
- [23:32]
B
I would kind of assume that she picked it out in some way. Okay, right. Like, I think it's highly possible they designed it together. I don't know. That's my theory, because I feel like to show it on social media. That actually surprised me, too, that they did. Okay, well, and this brings me to my third set of questions, actually. Were you surprised at how public the announcement was? How millennial coded? You know, how, like, there's the photo shoot, there's the ring shot. I don't know. I. Yeah. Okay.
- [24:05]
A
I am surprised. I feel like if you had asked me to guess what would happen prior, I would have said, at some point, she'll just start wearing a wedding ring, and there will be no explanation. It will just be like, they have gotten married. But there would be no announcement, there would be no press around it, et cetera. So I was very surprised that she announced it. I think it was very cute. I think it made people very happy. I have an ick. Not about her, but I have an ick about the way people are reacting to this and the entitlement that people have to it. And I feel like in some ways I've heard certain circles. I don't think this is everyone, but I've definitely heard certain circles being like, I can't wait to see the wedding. Her dress is gonna be so ugly, or she's gonna wear the stupid curly bangs or something. And I'm like, I don't like the Idea that people want to see this to make fun of it.
- [25:00]
B
Oh, I have not heard that reaction, but that is disheartening.
- [25:03]
A
Well, I think there's a contingent of people who don't like the way she dresses. And so the wedding, you know, is really the culmination of this. You know, what is she gonna do? Yeah, what is she gonna do for a wedding dress? And I don't like that. I understand it's a little Pollyannish to be like, can we just be happy for them? Let them do whatever they're gonna do. They don't need to give us more details. Be happy that they gave us this moment and be done with it. Like, I almost, if I were her, which I obviously am not, I don't know that I would have post about my engagement publicly. And I certainly wouldn't want to post anything about the wedding. I would almost be like the Zendaya of, you know, Law Roach is sourcing or having designed a gown for her. And nobody will ever see it. Like, it will not be public.
- [25:49]
B
Right.
- [25:49]
A
Like, I would go that route. And almost, if I was Taylor Swift, I would want to post on Instagram, like, a very close up shot of the dress. And I would use the quote, this is why we can't have nice things. Obviously, she is a public figure. I think she dances a really interesting dance with. I want my life to be private, but I have created this Easter egg ification of everything. What's a hint? What's a clue? I'm incentivizing people to, like, dig deep into everything I post. And, you know, she said, easter eggs never have to do with my personal life. I don't think that has stopped people in the past. So she incentivizes people to, like, pay very close attention to. But I feel like people feel beholden to and, you know, it's the parasocial relationship of it all. And especially people who've been fans of her since, you know, debut or since the very early albums have grown up alongside her. It feels like she is your friend. I saw this really funny reel of a mom who was in the car with her children in the backseat. And I think the kids were probably like three or four and they were asking if they were gonna get invited to the wedding. And the mom was trying to explain, like, well, yes, we know Taylor Swift, but Taylor Swift doesn't know us to a child. But I almost feel like also adults feel that way.
- [27:08]
B
Yeah, I think the engagement post you're running, if you're Taylor Swift, the risk of Setting a precedent that people expect to have as much access to the wedding, which maybe that just means we'll get a carousel of photos after the wedding and that's it. Not to say that people should feel entitled to that, as you were saying. But it surprised me a lot because I think that this does make their wedding essentially the royal wedding of pop culture in the United States of, I mean, probably the past 25 years at least, if not more. And I think it also signals like this isn't going to be a private, small affair. This is going to be big. Like, I think this is gonna be like 20 bridesmaids, 20 groomsmen.
- [27:58]
A
Do you think so?
- [27:59]
B
Private Island? I think the engagement post made me think that. And of course she could change her mind or do things differently, but it just, it sets up this crazed obsession with the wedding. Like the ring photo, the. I don't know. And maybe she wants that. You know, she's been so private about relationships for so long, having to hide them. And I think now she's really just like, we're going for it and all regards. And I think that's fine. I mean, I'm sure she's thought about every aspect. Did you not get that vibe from the post that like, oh, this wedding is going to be a huge like a thousand people, Private Island, Elton John, People magazine photo spread? Maybe not that, but I'm not sure.
- [28:40]
A
That one dictates the other. I agree with what you're saying that it was definitely a capital C choice because I think more so than other celebrities, Taylor Swift has such a tight, locked down camp around her. The fact that she announced the life of a showgirl and you know, everything kind of leaked 48 hours before. But before that, nobody had any idea that she was flying to Sweden during her European eras tour stops to record this. Like, I think she has a really tight, locked down camp relative to other celebrities. And you know, she knows how to disappear too. Like during the Reputation era where she just fucked off to England and nobody saw her for however long. Like, I think it was a choice to do this as a. Like she didn't have to do this. She could have gotten engaged theoretically and it could have been something that was never announced.
- [29:34]
B
Yes. And I guess what I would say is I think the choice signals that she's leading into all of it being more public than any other milestone in her life has ever been.
- [29:45]
A
Maybe, I guess maybe, maybe not.
- [29:47]
B
We'll see. I mean, I hope that they do whatever feels best to them and that people give them their Privacy.
- [29:53]
A
I agree with that. I think of. Do you remember when Ben Affleck And Jennifer Lopez 1.0, when they called off the wedding right before because like just the stress of all of the public scrutiny around it was like so much.
- [30:08]
B
Yes.
- [30:09]
A
I just, I have a real Leave Britney alone type reaction about some of this.
- [30:13]
B
Yeah, I thought about. Do you remember when Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt sold a photo of one of their babies to People magazine and they donated all the money to something?
- [30:24]
A
No, not really.
- [30:25]
B
Oh. For some reason that sticks into my mind and I kind of wonder if, like, if they're going to be so public, not that they have any obligation to do that. I wonder if there will be some sort of charity component to all the media attention. I don't know. I wonder about it all. But do you think it's going to be 2027?
- [30:43]
A
No, I think 2026. I think that the kind of narrative right now is that Travis will probably retire after this football season.
- [30:53]
B
And so she told you the super bowl show.
- [30:55]
A
I do think that's true. So you know that's February tbd. In what capacity? She will tour for Life of a Showgirl. But I could see them getting married next summer.
- [31:05]
B
That could fit. Well, I'm sure we'll be following along. Well, what's your first thing?
- [31:11]
A
Okay, my first thing is this app called Focus Friend that the YA author Hank Green somehow associated with. I don't know if he specifically developed it or financed. I don't know specifically what his role is, but it's like his app. Have you seen this?
- [31:27]
B
No, I have not.
- [31:28]
A
Okay. So the app is very cutesy. The idea is that you have a bean, like a pinto bean, and you can give it a name and the bean knits and you set an amount of. It's basically like a gamified pomodoro method timer. And so you set an amount of time that you want to focus for. And while you focus, your bean knits socks. And if you touch your phone or open your phone before the timer is up, your bean drops his stitches and is sad. And it's all like a cutesy cartoon visuals. And then with the socks that your bean knits, you can trade in the socks to get various decor items to decorate the bean's room. So I saw this on Instagram a couple of weeks ago and at the time when it was released, it was like the number one app in productivity above and beyond even Google. I mean, I don't know what a milestone that is because who's downloading The Google app. Unless you get a new phone or Google baits you into downloading the app as opposed to browsing in Safari. But it was very popular when it first launched. And I really like this because it is somebody gamifying the idea of using our phones less.
- [32:56]
B
Right. And you love a game.
- [32:58]
A
Oh, it's not even a game, but it's just like, so much of our attention has been, like, tech apps have been designed to give our attention away, and this is almost incentivizing focus. I really like that somebody has put resources into developing something that theoretically tricks your brain into being on your phone less.
- [33:23]
B
And you've got. How long have you been trying this?
- [33:25]
A
I just tried it yesterday. I like the idea more that I have, you know, really experimented with the app itself, but I did it yesterday. When you set the timer, it creates something on your lock screen that's basically just a countdown. You can put a screen lock on so it stays open, and you can watch the bean knit while you do it. But that would obviously affect both your screen time, which I'm weird about. Like, I don't want something increasing my screen time if I'm not actually using it. And it also drains the battery, so I didn't do that. But, yeah, I just like the idea of somebody gamifying focus. The app is free. In my experience with it so far. It's not overly, like, buy this premium version, but there are things you can buy. You can. There's a pro version, or you could buy skills skins for your bean that make it a cat or make it different things, but the standard is just a pinto bean. And you can name it something. I named mine Beanie Baby, which I thought was kind of funny.
- [34:23]
B
Does it have arms, legs?
- [34:25]
A
It's knitting. It has hands.
- [34:27]
B
Okay, Well, I mean, I've never thought about a bean knitting, so I should know what would go into it. I'm trying to visualize it. Okay, well, very interesting. I'm glad that works.
- [34:37]
A
Yeah, I just. I hope there's more of this, you know, like, because I do think that my attention span has deteriorated in a way where just telling myself and, like, brute force of, like, sit down and focus is getting harder and harder. So I like the idea that there's kind of tech interventions to help bring our brain the other way and heal our focus and attention. In some ways, we deserve it.
- [35:07]
B
Yeah, we deserve the beans.
- [35:09]
A
Have you ever tried any type of, like, Internet blocker? Like, I know there's the forest app, or I. I can't think of the names But I know there's tons of other tech blocker type apps both for your physical computer and also for your phone.
- [35:24]
B
I have. Not at all really. Usually when I'm on task on my laptop, I have a pretty, pretty easy time focusing and if I don't, it's usually like I just check my email. I don't spend a lot of time doing anything else, but I do again, like the image of a bean knitting. So I maybe, maybe I'll get it just to look at it.
- [35:45]
A
It's cute. It's cute. I'm excited to decorate his room. There's a little tutorial at the beginning of how the app works and it's very cute when the bean's room is full of decorations. You can get plants, you can have all sorts of things.
- [35:59]
B
What do you think is the thing that most contributes to like a lack of focus on your part or is there like a certain situation that you get in and you feel like you, you are less focused or a certain time of year or, or something, a certain task?
- [36:12]
A
I think that my lack of focus is largely fear based. I think that I have really good focus when I know exactly what I'm doing and I know what I have to do. But I think when I get into a situation where writing a book where I don't know what happens next, I don't know how to fix the problem, it feels uncomfortable. And so I pick up my phone almost as a way to purposefully distract myself. And usually the first place I go is Instagram, but Lord knows I could find 9 million different ways to distract myself on my phone. Like, previously I had this stack of all the New York Times games that I had to do or, you know, I could get lost in anything. But it largely comes from it is an uncomfortable feeling for me to not know exactly what I'm doing. And so instead I will avoid it by letting the phone take my attention.
- [37:04]
B
Yes, I definitely know this feeling. I've experienced that sometimes with sleep. Last night, for example, I had to be up at literally 3am and it was 11 and I was like, why are you on Reddit right now, Olivia? Like just scrolling through the homepage of Reddit, seeing what's going on in the world.
- [37:23]
A
Like, why, why were you doing that?
- [37:26]
B
I think I was just avoiding. You know when you're tired or you're sick or something and you're just like, you don't want to. Just like you said, like you don't want to sit with that uncomfortable feeling.
- [37:35]
A
Yes.
- [37:35]
B
Like, I think for me, I Didn't want to lay there in bed and think about the fact that I had to wake up in, you know, four hours and how horrible that was going to be. So instead of do, instead of actually going to sleep and getting more sleep, I was like, well, I don't have to think about that at all if I'm just, you know, absorbing all this information or scrolling through Pinterest, which is something I also do. But it like has zero addictive qualities to me. But I totally understand the avoidance aspect 100% and I will definitely do that. If I'm avoiding a work task that I'm scared of. I will just go through my emails again and I will reply to all of the things and I will definitely go on substack. That's one on my laptop that I definitely do.
- [38:14]
A
I was listening to a podcast the other week and I wish I remembered which podcast it was. I would say it was maybe the shit no one tells you about writing or maybe the am writing podcast. I would like to give credit, but I frankly don't remember and wasn't expecting to quote this or to have this come up in public. But somebody was saying that when they're browsing social media, they try to stop themselves and say, what are you looking for? Beyond, you know, I want to stalk this person I went to high school with. Like, what are you looking for? Is it that you're looking for distraction? Are you looking to feel better about yourself? Like, what emotional need are you trying to fill right now? And I was like, that's very powerful. I don't often have the self introspection to actually do that when I'm reaching for social media. But I think that's a really positive habit to say, why am I doing this? Like, what am I looking for? Because oftentimes it's almost what I get out of social media is secondary. You know, it's not that I'm so deeply enjoying being on social media or seeing what's on social media. And I, I do think since I've started watercoloring, sometimes I will go specifically looking for inspiration. And so being on social media is this pure like cause and effect of I would like to see watercolor videos for inspiration and I go and I fill that need. But oftentimes it is avoidance or fear as opposed to like having a primary enjoyment of what I'm going to see and get out of social media.
- [39:45]
B
That's such a good question to ask and I've talked about this, but I can notice so much now when I feel the urge to download Instagram. I don't really think about it in the moment, but if I zoom out, especially if like I had just been on it a few hours earlier, like, I really have to ask myself why? And very often it is tied to experiencing some kind of bad feeling. Like it might be something very fleeting and like a tiny anxiety or worry or moment of shame. Some part of my brain, the connection of like, oh, if I just download this right now and I can see that actually I am interesting and people do respond to my stories and like, it's just, it's so clear to me now how linked that is. But it's so hard to break that chain. I think, well, why don't we take one more ad break and then we will talk about a couple other things.
- [40:38]
A
I don't know what the weather is like where you are, but here in New York City there is a nip in the air in the morning and our evenings are getting a little chilly. And I'm thrilled because that means it's time to break out One of my absolute favorite items from last year, which is my Cozy Earth Cuddle blanket. It is the softest faux fur blanket and it's slightly weighted in a way that just absolutely melts my anxiety. And last year I influenced pretty much my entire friend group to get one to the point where multiple of the couples in the group have had to get two because they were fighting over it. It's honestly that good.
- [41:19]
B
And you know who else is a huge fan of the Cuddle blanket? Winnie. And in fact, we have a whole house of Cozy Earth fans over here. Winnie loves the blanket, Jake loves the loungewear, and I love their temperature regulating sheets made from viscose from bamboo. Although to be honest, we all love those sheets. I swear I just sleep better when these are on my bed. They wick away heat and moisture and they help you sleep several degrees cooler.
- [41:46]
A
If you're on the fence, you should know that Cozy earth offers a 100 night sleep trial to test all of their bedding. And if you don't love it, return it hassle free. But I'm pretty positive you're not going to want to. So head to cozyearth.com and use code BOP for 40% off. That's cozyearth.com and code BOP for 40% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to let them know that you heard about Cozy Earth from Baton Paper Cozy Earth. Because your bed should be more than a place to sleep. It should be your happy place. All Right. Olivia, tell me your next thing.
- [42:24]
B
Well, you know, I think they kind of go together so we can wrap them into one in a way. So I wanted to talk to you about what you're looking forward to the rest of this year. So we're just in September. We're getting into that crispy fall season, but then we have the holidays and all of that. You've just traveled a lot, so I wanted to know what is on your radar. My other thing I think kind of ties into this and I wanted to know what books are at the top of your fall TBR or what you're just really looking to read. And I guess that can be for fall, but it can also be the rest of this year because Lord knows both of us have a lot of books we want to read. So what are you looking forward to? Books, life, all of it.
- [43:05]
A
Well, I'll tell you that I came home from my trip with big back to school, productive homebody energy. The last day of the trip, I was just fantasizing about routines. I was fantasizing about morning routines. I was fantasizing about grocery shopping. I was fantasizing about cooking. I was fantasizing about getting back into a book routine. I just feel a lot of September energy right now. It is my season as a Virgo, so I would say I'm looking forward to being a little boring. As boring as that sounds.
- [43:44]
B
Oh, no, I support that.
- [43:46]
A
Specifically, I'm looking forward to finishing my book. I think I can safely say I will finish this book before the end of the year. I am finishing what is supposed to be the second to last draft this week. And then depending on how quickly my editor returns edits and how quickly I do those edits. I think there's a world in which I'm finished by the end of October, which is very exciting. So that also means that potentially I'm starting something new in November and December. Or I'm not actually starting something new because I've already started my third book. So I'm returning to it. But I'm very excited for new projects. I'm excited to play more mahjong. My mahjong group has been very hard to pin down over the summer because of everyone's travel schedule. So I'm very excited for us to all be in town and to get into a regular cadence. Same with pickleball. I was in such a good pickleball groove in the spring and then everyone took off for summer, and it's been so hard to get people together. I've really Only played twice. So I'm excited for a big fall of hobbies that also includes painting. I'm excited to continue with my watercolor painting. I said a few episodes ago I had my friend Jenna over for an art night and I would love that to become a more regular thing this fall. I'm also excited to cook more. I feel like I haven't cooked very much because my apartment gets very hot if I turn on my oven during the summer, so I generally don't. But I'm excited to. I'm excited to get back to cooking too.
- [45:16]
B
It's soup season.
- [45:17]
A
Oh, it's not soup season yet, but it's getting there.
- [45:20]
B
It is getting there. You gather the recipes, gather the soldiers.
- [45:24]
A
Gather the soldiers. Oh, you know what else I'm excited for potentially? I would like to make it up to Boston to go to bc, which is my alma material for a football game.
- [45:34]
B
Well, that's fun. This is such a wholesome fall. Fall smattering of things.
- [45:39]
A
Okay, what about you? What are you excited for this fall?
- [45:42]
B
I'm also very excited to just be boring and to just like hunker down and just be home. Very excited about cooking soups. Like I said, my brother and his girlfriend were here visiting and last night we just had all the windows and doors open. There was a cool breeze, football was on the tv. I was just making like some shredded Mexican chicken in a slow cooker and we had like taco bowls and lit a bunch of candles and actually, you know what? We played that word game that you suggested that we played on three things. I think our last three things.
- [46:15]
A
Oh, get to the same word.
- [46:17]
B
Yes. And it was so fun because my brother and I something about maybe being raised together, something, we were so good at it. Oh. And it was really surprising but hilarious and gosh, we must have played it for like hours. It was so fun. And so just like more nights like that. I think I'm excited for just home. Cozy candles, lots of candles. I replenished my taper candle stash over the weekend. You'll be happy to know travel wise there, we don't have much going on. We're going to Jake's parents house for Thanksgiving and then actually the end of this month we're going back to the Outer Banks for a week, which we didn't go last year and I missed it. And I'm very excited for a late September beach trip where I can just do nothing but read and hopefully do a little writing. And yeah, I'm speaking of writing, I'm hoping to. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with selling the third book, but what I can hopefully control is that I'd really love to have a full draft done by the end of this year. And I think I can do that so that. Well, I mean, you know, talk to me then. But I do. I have good momentum right now. And so I'm trying to really, like, I'm trying to really get there. And one weirdly specific thing I want to do is I want to have a, like a solo date road trip with myself and I want to map out various Goodwills and thrift stores that I haven't been to before in surrounding towns and then pick out little restaurants and cafes and stuff to take myself to along the way and make a.
- [47:53]
A
Playlist that's very fun. And so on brand for you.
- [47:58]
B
It is my perfect day, but I've been really craving some, like, solo time just because we've traveled, we have people here, we are hosting, we've a lot of social things. So I think I need that for my soul. I mean, other than that, just kind of hunkering down and lighting a bunch of candles in the writing cottage and hopefully finding interesting ways to promote Little one. And I just really like to go into the new year feeling like I've done everything I can do and that's all I think. Oh, and my retreat that I'm hosting in November, I'm excited about that too. Just a cozy fall weekend in the mountains.
- [48:34]
A
I love all of this. Okay. But not that I don't care about this, but tell me about what books are on your fall list.
- [48:41]
B
Yes. So get to the really stinging.
- [48:44]
A
Get to the books.
- [48:44]
B
Yes, of course I'm thinking a lot about my TBR because the bookshelves are now done. And so I've been really strategizing about how I want to fil them. And like I. I definitely.
- [48:56]
A
Can you a curing window that you're not allowed to. Or is it.
- [49:00]
B
We're waiting for today. Also, they finished them and literally my brother and his girlfriend got here like a couple hours later. So we just haven't had time. But I just, I want to have a dedicated TBR shelf or let's be honest, shelves. So I've been thinking about what's really top of mind and I just keep buying. I bought two more books this weekend. Who am I? But okay, so three books among many books that I'm looking forward to reading. I just picked up a copy of the Bewitching by Sylvia Moreno Garcia Okay.
- [49:29]
A
She wrote Mexican Gothic, right?
- [49:31]
B
Yes. And I loved Mexican Gothic. And this got very good reviews, or the reviews I read were great. And it's just. It has this spooky vibe that I think I'm gonna be into. So I've decided I'm gonna wait until the first day. We can light a fire in the wood burning stove in the library. I'm going to crack that one open.
- [49:50]
A
Okay.
- [49:51]
B
Also, I picked up Finding Grace by Loretta Rothschild, which I have been seeing. Pick up some steam. It came out maybe a month ago or two months ago. It's been out for a bit, but it has a huge plot twist in the first chapter, which I did spoil for myself because this is who I am. But it's kind of described as a mystery. There's a romance in it. It's like, emotional. Seems like something I would like. So I'm looking forward to that one. And a lot of people who have similar taste to me seem to like this one. Have you read this or seen anything about this?
- [50:25]
A
I both haven't read it, nor have I heard anything about it, really. Breaking news.
- [50:30]
B
The publisher did something really interesting, which is that they shared the entire first chapter of the book that you can read for free because it has such a massive plot twist at the end that like, really grabs you. So I did that, and it took me a while to buy it, but it did get me. And then finally a book that comes out the end of this month. It's called what a Time to Be Alive by Jade Chang. And this is about woman who goes viral when she gives a speech at her, I believe, a friend's funeral. And she becomes this sort of like de facto spiritual leader even though her life is a mess. And I find that just such an interesting book and it's been sitting on my table forever. I haven't read this author's other book, but I think it could be very entertaining. So those are three that I'm looking forward to, but my God, there are so many more.
- [51:26]
A
So.
- [51:26]
B
So stay tuned for whenever I share the full TBR shelf in the library. What's on your radar right now?
- [51:33]
A
Okay. I have four that I'm very much looking forward to. The first is a carryover from our second half of the year book preview. I'm not sure how I haven't read it yet, but it's the Wilderness by Angela Flournoy. And this comes out, I think, next week. It is about a group of five black women who are all best friends. I think two of them are sisters. And it takes place over the course of 20 years and it's kind of about how their friend group changes and the relationship dynamics change. So this is incredibly up my alley and I've heard very good things about it. So that's probably the one I'm most excited for. Hopefully I think it'll be the next thing I pick up.
- [52:18]
B
This one is getting so much buzz. I know that we've talked about it here before, but I am also very interested in this one.
- [52:25]
A
I'm also really excited about Boomtown by Nic Stone, which comes out October 14th and this is more of a thriller. But what appeals to me about it is Nic Stone is a very well regarded YA author. She wrote the Dear Martin books among many others, and this is her adult debut and it is so adult. It is about a woman who goes missing who is a stripper at a high class Atlanta strip club. So if you've watched I think the show is P. Valley about the Atlanta strip club. Like it feels very risque and I'm so fascinated to see, you know, I feel like this season a lot of YA authors have moved into the adult space space. But I'm very excited to see this one specifically because it feels so adult. Then I'm very excited for Patti Smith has a new memoir coming out and her first memoir, Just Kids, about her friendship with the artist Robert Mapplethorpe, is one of my all time favorite books and she has a new memoir coming out called Bread of Angels and it comes out November 4th and it's a wider in scope memoir about her entire life. So I'm very excited for that. Just if you have not read Just Kids, oh my goodness, what are you doing? Have you read Just Kids, Olivia?
- [53:53]
B
I have not. But I mean I see it everywhere I can. Like it's like such an iconic cover.
- [53:58]
A
It's so fantastic.
- [54:00]
B
I'll have to check it out finally.
- [54:02]
A
So I'm very excited for that. And then lastly, a Romantasy. I am very excited for Brimstone by Callie Hart, which comes out November 18, which is the second book in the Quicksilver Romantasy series and I think it's supposed to be a duology, so hopefully this wraps it up. Although I feel like there's been a trend of things that are supposed to be a duology and that are not Surprise.
- [54:26]
B
When did Quicksilver come out?
- [54:28]
A
Quicksilver came out last year and it was a huge TikTok sensation and I read it in the spring of this year and I really enjoyed it and it ended on a huge cliffhanger that for sure looped me in that I will absolutely be reading the sequel.
- [54:46]
B
What a good variety you have there.
- [54:48]
A
I try. I try. Okay. Do you know what else is on my list, which is my last thing, which is why I didn't include it in here. I want to talk about. I mean, I guess I don't want to talk about the book so much as I want to talk about the coverage around the book of Elizabeth Gilbert's new memoir, all the Way to the river, which also comes out next week.
- [55:09]
B
I did consider that, but I was like, there's so much to unpack.
- [55:15]
A
Okay. Are you. Oh, it comes out this week. Are you following this coverage? So there was an excerpt of the book in the Cut, and then there was a review of the book written by Gia Tolentino, who wrote Trick Mirror in the New Yorker. I feel like are the two kind of key pieces I am referring to of coverage.
- [55:35]
B
I have read the one in the Cut.
- [55:37]
A
Okay. I bought a subscription. Well, I bought a trial of a subscription to the New Yorker just to read the Gia Tolentino one.
- [55:45]
B
Wow.
- [55:45]
A
I know. That's how committed I am.
- [55:47]
B
What's the take?
- [55:49]
A
So the Gia. I thought it was very fair. Tough, but fair. I felt like. So this is Elizabeth Gilbert's second memoir. Elizabeth Gilbert obviously wrote Eat, Pray Love, the absolute smash sensation about being in her 30s, getting a divorce, and then going on this kind of worldwide journey to find herself. At the end of that book, she. Spoiler, I guess. Although I can one spoil Eat, Pray, Love, at this point, I think it's fine. She meets this Brazilian businessman, falls in love with him in Bali, gets married to him. And then this memoir, the Meat of it, starts in 2016. She ends up leaving that husband to be with her female best friend, who is an addict in recovery who has recently been diagnosed with terminal cancer. And I was aware of a lot of this because I am a big Elizabeth Gilbert fan. I love Big Magic. I. A big. I don't know if I want to say Elizabeth Gilbert apologist, but I think she. There's something very special about her. And this happened kind of right after Big Magic was coming out. And she did talk about it publicly, but did not get into, like, the darkness and the nitty gritty of the details. And the excerpt that was in the Cut is a fucking wild ride. So basically, she gets with her best friend whose name is Raya, for the first couple months. It's exactly what you would expect from Elizabeth Gilbert. It is like this sparkly. No two people have Loved each other more. We are inventing new definitions for love. We know that this is going to be really hard, but we're finding beauty in this tough situation. And then it takes a turn where her partner starts actively using drugs again. It starts with prescribed drugs like morphine for pain, and then very quickly spirals into active relapse of her drug addiction, you know, by Elizabeth Gilbert is also, by her own admission, like, enabling her and, you know, buying cocaine off the street for her, like tying her arm off for her to shoot up heroin. Like, it is a very wild and dark story and the press around it says that it will be very polarizing.
- [58:23]
B
Yes. You want to know the first thing I thought when I read that excerpt? I thought we were all so offended by her writing a book set in Russia. And by we, I just mean the Internet at large. The Internet. So for those that don't know, maybe a year and a half or two years ago at this point, Elizabeth Gilbert announced she had a novel coming out, fiction. And it was set in Russia in. Yes, in the past, in a utopian.
- [58:51]
A
Society that was also somewhat removed from, you know, Russian politics or culture.
- [58:58]
B
Right. And it was around the time that Russia had invaded Ukraine or soon after, I think. And the novel, before it was even in the world, was getting like review bombed negatively on Goodreads and just absolutely trashed because it was set in Russia and people are like, I guess the argument was we shouldn't be platforming Russia. I don't know. But it's just interesting because she ended up pulling it and she was like, I shouldn't tell this story right now. But she's coming out with a story that I would argue is maybe more controversial and potentially more problematic. Again, I haven't read the whole thing. I've just read the excerpt. But I don't know. Don't you find something about that kind of interesting?
- [59:42]
A
No, I find it unsurprising.
- [59:44]
B
How so?
- [59:45]
A
I feel like Elizabeth Gilbert is somebody who has kind of built her brand around radical honesty and transparency. So I. I find the details of it very salacious, for sure. But I guess I don't feel it's super off brand or surprising.
- [60:04]
B
I just think it's a little ironic that people were upset about her telling a fictional story set in a country with problematic leadership.
- [60:14]
A
And then she's like, hold my beer. I'll tell you the most scandalous story about me.
- [60:19]
B
Right. And about a person who is no longer alive, so really doesn't have any agency over how the story is being told.
- [60:29]
A
That was Something that I questioned as well. And I can't remember which piece it was in. Maybe it was in the New Yorker piece. I did feel. Because I felt icky about that, too. And it was stated somewhere that Raya loved the idea of Elizabeth Gilbert writing about her and kind of gave full permission for her to dive into the messiness of it.
- [60:54]
B
Okay. And maybe that's very clear when you read the full book. But that is some of the pushback I have seen. And I think, you know, at least looking at all the information at face value is a fair question to ask.
- [61:06]
A
Well, what did you think of the excerpt?
- [61:07]
B
I mean, I thought it was interesting. It's so far removed from, like, Liz Gilbert just has this very interesting way of moving through the world. And I always think about that. And I don't think I've actually ever read Eat, Pray, Love, now that I'm thinking about it, but I. I always think about that scene. And you can tell me if this is in the book, maybe in the movie version where Julia Roberts is, like, laying on the floor and James Franco is there, who's her, like, first boyfriend after she leaves her husband, and he's like, why are you crying? Why are you laying on the floor? And she's just like, I don't know. I can't do this. But it's never really clear why she's having this reaction. But you understand that she is, and it's valid and all of that. I don't know. So for some reason, the excerpt just gave me the feeling of that scene where she's just. She, like, she can't be in the bed. She's lying on the floor crying. By all accounts, the boyfriend is nice, and he's like, what is going on? I don't understand what's happening. She's just like, I can't be in the bed. I don't know what's happening. I need to go to Italy. I don't know. It's like. It's interesting. It's just. I don't understand, like, how she reacts and moves to the world.
- [62:14]
A
It felt like there was a lack of accountability. Is that what you're referring to?
- [62:19]
B
No, I don't really mean anything critical necessarily. I guess it's just like this idea that you could kind of blow up your life multiple times in the way that she does without much thought. In some ways, you know, she's like, oh, my friend of 15 years. And then the extra. The vibe was, oh, clearly we're in love. And it just kind of occurs to her in this instant. And then the friend is like, yes, obviously. And that's fine. It's just. I don't know if I'm. It's so impulsive, I guess. There's so much impulsivity. There's so much emotion, gut instinct, reaction above everything else. And I'm a very emotional person, too. And I love the idea of, like, how romantic it is to live that way. And I think there's such value in the ways that she kind of teaches through those choices. And I think Big Magic is a good example of that. But it's so foreign to me. Like, it's so interesting. It's just like reading it. It's like, oh, and then you did that, and then you did that, and then you went out and got cocaine for that person. Like, I can't imagine a situation that would ever bring me to that place. But that's why memoir is interesting. So it's kind of like she's this alien. I. Does that make.
- [63:33]
A
Yes.
- [63:34]
B
In any way?
- [63:35]
A
I agree with you. I found the excerpt so compelling. I was glued to it and it was a long read and I was just like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. You know, it just felt like I couldn't believe what was happening. I agree. It wasn't that I related to it. It was almost like watching a car wreck from the outside and saying, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? But I agree with you that there is something really compelling about Elizabeth Gilbert and her way of thinking and moving through life. And I think of myself as a very. I would say I'm more of a head driven person than a heart driven person. And I think of her as an extremely heart driven person. And so it's very interesting to see how she lives her life. And I think her honesty around it and her willingness to share things that I don't think I would want to share is really admirable. I found it really refreshing as I was reading it, an almost unapologeticness about the messiness. And I think that Glennon Doyle has this too. And I think Glennon Doyle is maybe narrating further back because if you read her, I don't know if it was her first one, Love Warrior. She talks about being an alcoholic and she talks about kind of all of these terrible decisions she's making. She talks about her marriage. She's more removed from it now than this situation with Elizabeth Gilbert. I think Raya, her partner, died in 2018, if I'm not mistaken. But I feel like there's something about. And I haven't read the book yet, so I don't know if this is true. Like, there's not a lesson here, you know, where it's not like the let them theory, where it's like, I was broke and my marriage was falling apart. And here's a framework that I've built for you out of this. Like, it's more so just like, this was messy. I know people will judge me. It's. It's very unvarnished in a way, versus, I feel like. And I recognize this in myself. I feel like we societally have become more conscious of how things will be perceived through the lens of the Internet and other people's opinions. And I find myself quite frequently either not sharing certain things or narrativizing things in a certain way because I can already anticipate the backlash. So I think it's very brave the way that Elizabeth Gilbert is. Like, I was on the street corner buying cocaine for my terminally ill girlfriend, who I then left while she was dying. Like, it just. There's something about it where it's like, I know that this is probably not going to be well received by many people, and here you go.
- [66:24]
B
Yeah. I think there is an argument that it is vulnerability without filter, without calculation. And because of that, it can be very uncomfortable to read, but also incredibly impactful to some people. I think the other side of that argument is that. I mean, the reason that these pieces are going viral is because it's shocking. The reason the book will sell is because it's shocking, right?
- [66:49]
A
Well, I think it's shocking in general, but it's. I think there's something. Because she is a public figure who we know through the lens of Eat, Pray, Love, which is her most popular work. I think it's. You already have a parasocial relationship with her, and you already feel like you know this person. And it feels like not the epilogue I would expect, necessarily to that person, to that story, but I feel like if somebody else who was an unknown came and had the same story, yes, it would be shocking, But I feel like it's even more salacious because it's Liz Gilbert.
- [67:22]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think she does have a reputation for being kind of. I don't know what the word is. Not shocking, but boundary pushing, maybe.
- [67:32]
A
I agree with that, but I feel like so much of what I associate with her brand is impulsivity or these things in a more, like, sparkly, positive, bright way. Like, I'm blowing up my life, and then I'm going to go to Italy and I'm going to find such joy and gelato and learning the Italian language. And it's like, it's very positive. And so the darkness in this, I feel like is somewhat unexpected.
- [67:58]
B
I mean, what's weird is that like I find the actual content of it shocking. But like from what I know about Liz Gilbert, it somehow fits because I think I had read something from her or by her about this relationship. So I'm. I knew something about it. Maybe. Of course I didn't know the drug use of it all and everything, but yeah, I don't know. It's been interesting to see people's different. Like the conversation in the Facebook group about people's different takes on it. I mean, I think there's always value in telling the truth, especially if it is uncomfortable or hard or ugly. But I mean, I don't know. I'd like to see what she writes in the book about how her partner felt about all of this because I just. There's no one to fact check it. Like there's no one to approve it or I don't know. I'm trying to think of how I would feel if I was in that partnership.
- [68:50]
A
Yeah, I think that if you take at face value that what she's saying about the partner being okay with it and it seems like there was some involvement from her family as well, meaning the partner's family, who also Liz Gilbert is still in touch with and they're supportive of the project. I agree that's like a point of ickiness if that's not true. But it seemed to me through reading about this that it seems like they're okay with it. I don't know. I'm very curious to read the book after having read the excerpt. I was curious anyway, but I don't know that I was expecting quite that much darkness. She tries to kill her at one point too.
- [69:27]
B
Yeah, we're really burying the lead cover. It's a murder part.
- [69:31]
A
I don't know. It's a type of storytelling. I cannot speak to the motivations underlying it in terms of her self interestedness with telling the story. But I think it feels very fresh and very missing to just hear unvarnished stories that I. From the excerpt, I'm like, it doesn't make her look great. And it reminds me of. I'm very curious too about another memoir. Lena Dunham just announced a memoir that is coming out in April of 2026. It's called fame Sick and it's about her life from the years 2010 to 2020 and another polarizing figure who there's some kind of like unapologetic truth telling ness about. I'm curious about that one too. Also, I will say I didn't see the Facebook thread about this, so I'm very curious to go back and read that too.
- [70:24]
B
Yeah, there were a lot of varied takes which I really appreciated most reflected, like our conversation today. And a lot of people just said, I love her, I'll read anything she writes. And I think that's valid too. But I think ultimately this is the type of thing that unless you read it, you can't maybe you can't judge it completely. So maybe I will give it a read. Even though memoir isn't usually my thing.
- [70:45]
A
I think that Elizabeth Gilbert has a very compelling way of speaking. So I assume this would be very good to listen to on audio as well.
- [70:53]
B
Oh yeah, I'm sure.
- [70:55]
A
Okay, that was my second thing. Did we cover your third thing? Did we loop it into your second? The second?
- [71:01]
B
I think we did because we rolled them into one.
- [71:03]
A
Okay, so we're into end matter. Let's get into end matter.
- [71:12]
B
Yes. What are you obsessed with?
- [71:14]
A
Okay, I'm obsessed with this service called Day Use that I heard about through my friend Jessica who writes a blog called An Indigo Day and I've seen her use it before. And basically the service is, this sounds so sketchy. You can get a hotel room for a short window during the day. What else are people using this service for? I don't want to know. But I used it because my flight got into Sicily at 7:30 in the morning. We couldn't check into this villa until 4pm and everyone that I was traveling with was coming from Malta on a later flight. So I was basically just alone at the Sicily airport by myself. And I was like, the flight leaves at 4:45. I'm not going to sleep. Well. I had the foresight to book a hotel room. It was supposed to be from nine to four, but they let me check in right when I got there, which was around 8, the hotel was fine. It was nothing to write home about. I think it was €80 for the day. I went, I took a four hour nap. I got to fresh it up using a full bathroom. I didn't take a shower, but I could have. I got to leave my suitcase there and I went and got lunch like, oh my God, I would do this again in a heartbeat with any kind of like red eye travel situation.
- [72:32]
B
So, you know, it's weird. I have not thought about this in years. And I cannot even remember where we did this, but Jake and I did this before. I don't know if it was day use or if it was some other promotion, but we did this exact thing. And I remember thinking, this is absolutely genius. And I literally cannot remember where we were in the world. I cannot even think of it. But it's a game changer because that first day, if you haven't slept especially is. It is smelly and it is gross and it's miserable. So it's a game changer.
- [73:00]
A
Yes. Especially because everyone I was traveling with was coming from within Europe and was already on the time zone getting to take a four hour nap, which I know they say is the worst thing to do to get adjusted to the time zone, but here I am, live to tell the tale. Oh my gosh, it was fantastic.
- [73:17]
B
Good, good to know about.
- [73:19]
A
Remember, what is your obsession?
- [73:21]
B
So I've been really into this series on the shit no one tells you about writing podcast called Shooting the shit.
- [73:27]
A
Yes.
- [73:28]
B
Which is just an episode where two of the literary agents that are some of the hosts of the podcast literally just talk about industry gossip. They also talk a lot about blog posts, substack posts about the industry that have kind of been going around picking up traction. And I find it so strangely cozy because I really like consuming industry news, knowledge tips, tricks. But I think sometimes when you're reading it all and like you're just reading post after post, it can feel very overwhelming, can feel very clinical. And to hear it from two people who are experts within the industry with nuance, like, I just find it so interesting and comforting. I put it on this morning at 5am when I was putting away all the dishes from the weekend, doing dishes, making breakfast and drinking my coffee. And it was just like listening to two, like industry friends just talk. And I love it. So you've been listening to this too? It seems like, yes.
- [74:27]
A
I've been really enjoying this series. It feels like industry gossip in a way that I really love. I've listened to the first two episodes, but I think I have two more that I haven't listened to yet. I actually DMed Carly and CeCe, the two hosts after the first one and I was like, more of this. I'm obsessed. So highly recommend.
- [74:47]
B
Same. And you know what I like about it? It's gossipy without being snarky.
- [74:52]
A
Yes.
- [74:52]
B
Which I think is a really tough balance to strike and I really appreciate it. And yeah, I just, I really love it.
- [75:00]
A
Yes, agree.
- [75:01]
B
Well, what have you read?
- [75:02]
A
So I Finished Swan Song by Ellen Hildebrand. While I was in Sicily, I just bow down. Ellen is the master of poolside reading. It was the perfect kind of light, non scary mystery for me about a couple who buys this mansion in Nantucket that is imminently sinking into the ocean because of climate change and erosion. And they are throwing all of these huge epic parties and by the end of the summer, the house burns down under mysterious circumstances. So it was like a real estate mystery. It wasn't a scary mystery. Oh my gosh, it was fantastic. The party scenes in it were so good. There were so many good cameos to past Ellen side characters. I loved it. I loved it. Also, what pressure to have to wrap up her canon of work in Nantucket with one book. I can't imagine that pressure. I loved it. And then I'm on an Ellen bender because I guess if you've made it through an hour and a half of this episode, I can let you know that Ellen Hildebrandt and her daughter Shelby Cunningham are our guests next week to talk about their new book, the Academy, which comes out next week as well. And I started reading the Academy and I'm about 60% of the way through so far. And it is very different than I expected in a good way.
- [76:28]
B
How so?
- [76:28]
A
Okay, so I thought that this is going to be firmly in the camp of ya. It is, you know, set at a boarding school. It's about kind of a Gossip Girl type app that arrives on the campus and is telling everyone secrets and causing all this drama. And I thought it was going to be strongly told from the point of view of the students, but it is actually, I would say at least 50, 50 and maybe even 60, 40 towards the adults. So both the teachers and administrators and then also some of the parents. And it feels so eleany. Not that I expected that it wouldn't, but I kind of wasn't sure how some of the elements of an Ellen Hildebrand book would translate to this new genre and also a new setting. There's amazing food descriptions. There's that kind of first person plural narration that you expect from an Ellen book. In kind of those, you know, narration blocks. There's all of the kind of like stealth wealth, name dropping of brands and restaurants and places. Oh my gosh, it is so fun. I cannot wait to talk to them about both the idea behind the book, how the division of labor worked. I mean, working with your child. I don't have a child, but I can imagine that writing a book with anyone, you have a familial relationship with would be complicated. Complicated, Good word. So I'm excited. I'm excited both to finish the book and to talk to them.
- [77:54]
B
Me too.
- [77:55]
A
What did you read?
- [77:56]
B
I read Big Girl by Mecca Jamilah Sullivan. I had seen this book making the rounds on social media amongst a lot of people who I follow and whose reading taste I admire for a and then I was asked to go on this podcast. It's called the Curvy Literary Podcast. And this was months ago and the host asked me if I wanted to do a buddy read and discuss a book. And so she suggested this book, Big Girl and or she sent me a list and I saw this book and I had been wanting to read it and so I read it for the episode and we discussed it. I don't think that podcast episode is out yet, but I loved this book. It's all about this young black girl growing up in Harlem and her relationship with food and her body and the way that it changes over time. And also it's a lot about like generational body image and food issues and how they're passed down and just the pressure that women are under. And specifically in the case of this book, Black women to look a certain way and to sort of adhere to cultural standards. And the line level writing is just so good and there are so many parts of this book that just hurt my heart like so much. But I think it's such an important read and I loved it and I loved being able to talk about it with someone. And yeah, it was great.
- [79:19]
A
And this is already out, correct?
- [79:21]
B
Yes, it came out in 2022, so I got it in paperback. And you might be able to get it from your library or it's available.
- [79:29]
A
Well, if none of those appeal to you, Olivia, would you like to tell us about our September book club pick?
- [79:35]
B
Yes. Our September book club pick is Notes on youn Sudden Disappearance by Allison S. Pack. This is one of my favorite books ever. I read it this year and just absolutely fell in love with it. It came out a handful of years ago. It was her book that came out before the Wedding People, which so many of our listeners and Becca and I absolutely loved. This is about a young girl and her sister and her family and what happens when there is a huge tragedy and how everyone's lives are affected. And it's a love story. It's a family story, a sister story. It's emotional, it's suspenseful in a weird way. But it is not a thriller. So if the title throws you off, just know that and not every book is for everyone. But I will say the fans of this book, including myself, we write hard. We really do. Like, people are so passionate about this one, and I get it because I am the same way.
- [80:32]
A
I'm so excited to read it and see where I net out.
- [80:36]
B
Me too. Well, if you want to talk to us about any of this, you can join us in the Facebook group under Bow and Paper Podcast or on Instagram at Bowpaper Podcast. And you can also join us in BFF, formerly known as Geneva.
- [80:49]
A
I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter.
- [80:53]
B
Is@Beccafreeman.Substack.Com I am on Instagram and substack Olivia Mentor. And you can pre order my book, Little One right now. And I would be so grateful if you did.
- [81:04]
A
And we'll see you next week with Ellen.
- [81:06]
B
Bye.