B (2:28)

I hadn't actually listened to our interview since it happened a few months ago. There's just something about it that just was so deeply special to me, and I'LL carry with me for the rest of my life. So, anyway, the power of audio. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me your high.

A (2:44)

My high is that the other morning I went to breakfast with Holly Brickley, who is the author of Deep Cuts. And she is someone I basically forced myself on a couple of years ago before her book came out, because I had read it and I loved it so much. And we were on a trip to Portland and I had seen that she lives in Portland, and I basically accosted her in her DMs and was like, hi, I'm in town. Do you want to get coffee and be my friend? And we went to coffee and I really adored her. And the book came out. We did it for book club. Anyway, she was in New York for some events for her paperback release and we got to catch up and it was so nice gossiping and talking shop with somebody in person. I feel like I have more online writing community and so it was really nice to just have a leisurely breakfast and talk about all things book twos.

B (3:39)

That's so exciting. Did you talk about the adaptation at all?

A (3:42)

I mean, I can't betray any confidences.

B (3:45)

That's fair.

A (3:46)

But my hair is full of secrets.

B (3:47)

Well, that's very exciting. I know how much you enjoyed meeting her the first time, and she just seems like someone who has so much to share when it comes to writing. She's so talented.

A (3:58)

And then also secondarily, which we can get into. I also saw a screening of Project Hail Mary, which I loved and could easily be a high.

B (4:06)

Oh, I'm so glad you liked it, too. I was like, we agreed not to discuss it before, like, no spoilers. So I didn't know what you were going to say, but I can't wait to get into that at the end of this episode. There's a lot in this episode, though, so we've got a lot to cover. It'll be a fun one. Do you have a low?

A (4:22)

No, no. It's only been less than 48 hours since we recorded, so not much has changed. How about you? You. You found something new? I did. New lows.

B (4:32)

This, yes. This week. My schedule is really tough this week, and I'm having trouble getting the things done I want to get done just because there's been book commitments scheduled within the week. We are recording multiple episodes because I'm traveling next week both to visit my parents and I have another book event. So when I scheduled my book tour for Little One, I was like, I'm gonna do all of the. The events in the first two weeks, I'm gonna pack them all in instead of like last time. I had more sporadic events over the course of many, many months, and somehow I've managed to kind of do both. I had about two weeks of not a lot going on, but now I. I have stuff kind of once a week until the end of April. And of course I love the events, but it's just my schedule isn't my favorite this week. So. Yeah, that's my low.

A (5:22)

Okay, well, I think you have two or three events in the interim before our next episode records, so hopefully you're feeling more settled after you knock a couple out.

B (5:33)

Yeah, I think I'm gonna take a day or two off in Charleston too, and just hang out by the beach or something and write and reset. Well, let's take an ad break and then we will talk about this fun episode. This episode is sponsored by Quince. I know I am not the only one who is ready for spring for Skirt Day, if you will, as Becca likes to call it. I am so ready for a lack of layers that I have basically just stopped wearing a coat when I leave the house in protest of the cold weather that is still lingering. And I've already been browsing quints for light, breezy pieces for spring, and I'm just really looking forward to getting dressed in warm weather. Quince makes beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and super soft denim. With styles starting around just $50.

A (6:31)

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B (7:03)

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A (7:48)

So I'm excited that we're doing this because we've never done any kind of formal retrospective of the podcast and I'm personally terrible at celebrating milestones. So I'm happy that you suggested this. You actually suggested this back in December and I can't remember why we didn't do it then, but we made it our anniversary episode. Looking back at your first episode, even though 8 is kind of a weird number to celebrate, I'm happy that we're celebrating, period.

B (8:19)

Yeah, I thought it would just be kind of fun to be sort of in conversation with our past selves. It was actually the idea came to me because I was listening to an episode of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour. And every year they do pop culture predictions for the year. And at the end of the year they do an episode where they kind of relisten to their past selves prediction and then they comment on it. So this is kind of gonna be a different version of that where we're listening to our 2022 selves and then talking to you as our 2026 selves. And. And yeah, it's crazy that it's been four years for me and eight years for you. And I guess it can be a celebration, but I'm thinking of it more of just general reflection. But celebration is good too.

A (9:03)

Why would it not be a celebration? Doing anything?

B (9:05)

It can be.

A (9:06)

It's a. It's our podcast's birthday, first of all, our child's birthday.

B (9:10)

I'm so sorry, podcast. Yes, it can be a celebration for sure.

A (9:15)

Well, first of all, take me back to recording your first episode in 2022. What do you remember about it?

B (9:23)

I remember being very nervous, which you can hear in my voice throughout the entire episode for sure. But this one specifically, we had never met in person.

A (9:34)

I did not remember that until I re listened to the episode.

B (9:38)

Yes. And it was like we were getting photos taken that day. We were meeting for the first time. I had never done an ad read, which we'll get into that later. And I just remember being really nervous and I think maybe I had been announced as the new co host maybe a month prior or something. Or it might've been more fresh than that. I'm not 100% sure because you. You said in the episode you had just recorded with Grace the previous day.

A (10:04)

Yeah, I think we recorded this episode a little bit in Advance. But then we'd announced you and done an episode with you and Grace as kind of a transitional episode.

B (10:14)

Yes.

A (10:15)

And so that one came out maybe a month before you officially joined as the co host, and I guess we must have done that over zoom. And then you had plans or you made yourself available to come up to New York, and you came to my apartment. And in the episode, we poured wine as we were doing. It was a Friday afternoon. I think I said in the episode that it was like three o'clock in the afternoon. And I remember you being so nervous and just wanting to put you at ease in some way.

B (10:47)

Yes.

A (10:47)

Like, afraid you would run out of my apartment and never return.

B (10:50)

Okay, so we'll probably get into this later, but when the podcast was announced was my final hoorah on Reddit.

A (10:56)

Okay.

B (10:56)

And that is because I was so curious to see what people were saying, and I hadn't been on there in a while. And so I went on and I did one of those. You just read everything there is that's ever been written about you on the Internet, and it was horrible for me. Horrible, horrible, horrible for me. And it was honestly, like, looking back, a turning point of my life in a lot of ways. But that happened, like, maybe two weeks before we recorded this episode, and it was still very fresh. And so I can hear in my voice or even some of the things that I was saying in the episode, I can hear how much I'm thinking, like, what are people going to think of me? They already don't like me. They're not going to like me more. I have to be really careful with what I say and how I present myself and pair that with the fact that we didn't really know each other very well. I had never really done a podcast before. I remember the ad read you had to stop me because I was going so fast and I was so nervous and. Oh, my God. I. Listening back to the ads was physically painful for me, but, yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot at the same time. What do you remember about it?

A (12:01)

I also remember you being really nervous, but I also. I think this was the same day. I wouldn't put money on it, but I think it was the same day. We went out for a drink afterwards, before you got your train back to Philly, and you told me the plot of Little One as it existed at that time.

B (12:22)

Really? I have no memory of that, but I trust you. My memory is really not as good as it once was. It was a big day. There was a lot happening And I

A (12:32)

just recall that because now little one just came out and the ending was slightly different at that time. I don't want to give any spoilers in this episode because oh yeah, I'm sure maybe not everyone has had read it.

B (12:44)

It's funny because before I re listened to this episode I was like, it's not that long ago. I'm not that different. My life isn't that different. And then I re listened to it and I thought, oh wow, actually a lot has changed. What was your life like back in this was almost four years in the dot. March 2022.

A (13:02)

It was March 2022. So let's see. I was living in my apartment that I just moved out of. So I was living in Brooklyn. I was doing marketing consulting for work. I was writing the Christmas Orphans Club. I was thinking about this this morning. I think based on the timing, I would have been working on a second draft, which meant it didn't really have an ending yet. But I'd gotten through the first drafts and I said something in that episode that made me feel like I was really committed to the project. So I was writing, but I didn't have an agent. I hadn't sold my book yet. I wasn't sure what was going to happen with it. Yeah, I don't know. It was interesting because in addition to listening to that episode, I took on some extra credit. And I also went and listened to the very first episode of the podcast because I didn't want to erase those first four years. And thinking about the difference from recording that episode, which was March of 2018 to now, my life feels incredibly different. I was still living in Manhattan, I was still working at Lola, I was working in house writing. Anything wasn't a glimmer in my eye. Grace still lived here and was and continues to be one of my best friends. But she was much more a part of my day to day life. Yeah, I. I felt much more familiar with the 2022 version of Me than listening all the way back to the 2018 version of me.

B (14:28)

Oh, I bet. You know, I don't know if I've ever listened to the very first episode of Bad. On paper.

A (14:33)

It was not as bad as I expected. I expected it to be awful and I, I didn't think it was. It was cute.

B (14:41)

Oh good, I'm glad. I'll have to go listen to that.

A (14:44)

What was your life like in 2022 when we recorded this?

B (14:49)

Well, I was living in Philly. I'd been married for a year, I guess. So coming off of the wedding, this whole process. I mean, it's weird because I just feel like a bunch of things at the beginning of 2022 in my life really just started to shift at the same time. Like, right now, writing finally became a bigger part of my life. I had started writing fiction in 2021, but 2022 was the time when I met my editor for such a bad influence. First of all, the same month, you had emailed me about that on paper. So, I mean, when we recorded this, I don't think I really understood fully what was going to happen, but really, everything was shifting in a different direction. I was probably at, like, the height of my influencing that had become such a big part of how I made money. We were traveling all the time because it felt like the world was really opening up again post Covid. Actually, listening to this episode, hearing you say that you were trying makeup swatches and you were wearing a mask, really made me understand, like, how different the world was four years ago and for how long. Covid was part of the world in a different way than it is now. Although, of course, it's still around. It was just different. I think I was on the precipice of everything changing, and I just had no idea.

A (16:04)

I think there was something really lovely about listening to both of these episodes and thinking about how much can change in four or eight years. And I find that really invigorating. Like, eight years ago, I really don't think I would have been able to predict what my life looks like right now.

B (16:18)

Yeah. What was the biggest. You say, like, the 2018 episode feels obviously more distant to you. What was the biggest difference listening to that one versus the 2022 one. Do you think, like, the thing you could notice the most?

A (16:32)

I mean, I think it's just a different dynamic because Grace and I were already friends versus you and I were really getting to know each other. And I thought that our first episode was really sweet and very earnest of doing this New York Times Questions for Love interview, which was a very smart idea. Whichever one of us had that, that was you. Oh, good job, me. But then going back to the 2018 episode, like, it was really just Grace and I being dummies and best friends in her apartment. Like, we had no expectations for this, and so it felt very free in a way.

B (17:09)

Yeah. Yeah, I can understand that for sure. How was it? You don't usually re. Listen to any episodes, right?

A (17:16)

No, I don't. And I feel like, especially maybe the past two years, I've had a little bit of a block of going back to listen to the goals episode because I maybe felt like I wasn't meeting those goals as I was struggling my way through writing back where we started. And so it felt upsetting to hear me set goals and then realize that I had not achieved them. And so I've had a block on it recently, and I've never gone back and listened, but I generally thought it was. It was a fun experience. I did notice when I was re. Listening, I sound a lot more optimistic and just brighter in that episode, and maybe that was the day because we were in person, but I definitely have had. I've had my confidence rocked a little bit in the last four years for a myriad of reasons. You know, part of that is becoming an author and putting your work up for a numeric rating on Goodreads. Part of that is how challenged I was by writing back where we started and how that defied the expectations that I had for myself. Part of that is Reddit and, you know, having a couple of instances of reading negative things about myself. But I. I really noticed that I sounded more optimistic in that episode. And I hope you don't mind me saying I thought, listening, that you sounded. And it makes sense now with you telling me about going on this Reddit dive. You sounded, like, a little bit evasive, and I. I associate you with being so vulnerable, but you sounded more. I don't know what word I'm looking for. Yeah.

B (18:52)

Guarded.

A (18:52)

Guarded, yeah. You felt much more guarded than I think you are now.

B (18:56)

Yes, I totally agree. And I wonder to speak to, like, the brighter, more optimistic thing you're saying. I wonder if part of it is that you could sense that I was so nervous, as you said, so you were compensating by being, you know, extra engaging. Like, I'd be interested if you listen to any other episode from 2022 and. And see if you feel the same way.

A (19:18)

Totally. Also, just the energy is different in person.

B (19:21)

Yes. Yes. And I think it was kind of like the first day of spring. It was beautiful out. I was nervous, but I think definitely I was very, very aware of being perceived in a way that I still am. Of course, that's never going to leave me, but it was so top of my mind all the time at that point in my life. And the Reddit thing didn't help. But listening back, like, it truly was this turning point for me that helped me pivot my life in a way that was really important. And I don't mean, like, the Reddit stuff helped me pivot I mostly mean that I had to, like, really separate myself from seeking validation to understand what I really wanted. And I didn't yet know that at the time. I just thought, this feels bad and I never want to look again. But actually, it's more complicated than that, I think. But, yes, I can definitely agree that I sound really guarded.

A (20:14)

When you were listening back, did you have empathy for yourself or were you cringing ads aside?

B (20:20)

Ads, I was cringing, but I know I had a lot of empathy for myself and actually a lot of pride because, I don't know, like, as you were saying, my life looks so different than it did then in so many ways. And I was happy then, but I'm happier in a different, deeper way now, I think. And I understand myself better. Like, I. You know, it's funny, the first thought I had when I listened was I really sound like a girl to me. Like, I don't sound like a woman. And I had just turned 29, you know, which is definitely an adult. But. And maybe it's just the lack of confidence, the nerves. I don't know. Again, maybe if I listened to a different episode six months later, it'd be different, but I just really feel like I was in a different stage of adulthood completely, like, mentally speaking. But, yeah, so much empathy. And I'm just proud of her for trying it and for doing it. And the podcast changed my life, you know, and, yeah, I don't know, how about you? Did you have empathy for yourself?

A (21:19)

I had a lot of empathy. The only thing that really made me cringe about listening to both episodes was going back to the very first episode and using a lot of language around, quote, unquote, bad books, trash books, like, and I think that was very of the culture at the time, talking about guilty pleasures. Reality TV was less normalized than it is now. And I also wasn't an author, so I was using much more flippant language about something that somebody had worked really, really hard on. And I think the word I was looking for is genre fiction or commercial fiction. But instead of differentiating that way, I was saying bad books. And I just kept cringing that if I had been an author tuning into this podcast and heard somebody referring to one of my books that way, I would just. I would crawl under my bed and never come out.

B (22:11)

I think you're right, though. It was a different time. And we have so many more resources when it comes to, like, how to talk about these things. And there's so much. I mean, honestly, when you think about 2018 and now, the way that we as a society read and engage with reading is so different, in my opinion. Like, I just think the online culture of talking about books is a completely different thing. Would you agree with that or.

A (22:35)

Yeah, I definitely think that TikTok, coming into the book conversation during the pandemic mainstreamed some of these books, and the level of success that so many of them have had makes it really hard to argue with their merit, you know?

B (22:51)

Yeah.

A (22:52)

And then I think, you know, another thing was that we started the podcast around YA books, and I don't think I was maybe as in tune at that time to the fact of how much that genre is written for adults to read versus younger people. And I think there's a lot of poor language used around the YA genre, even today that belittles it. That was a reflection on me that I couldn't just say, hey, I'm reading this and I like it. I had to justify it. And I think that's something that I've become much more cognizant of as I've hosted this podcast and as I've become an author myself, and as I've talked to many more readers about their reading tastes and habits and also wanted to destigmatize that there's no such thing as bad books. I'm sure there are racist and, you know, ableist and books that use language they don't approve of. But, you know, don't be embarrassed to read something that isn't winning a Booker Prize.

B (23:55)

I totally agree. When you think about 2022 Becca, when you listen to her, versus 2026 Becca, or even 2018 Becca, if you want, what is the. The biggest change that comes to mind?

A (24:07)

I mean, the biggest change is my career. Even in 2022, I had not sold my book. I did not have a newsletter. I mean, outside of the podcast, the way that I make my majority of money right now were not revenue streams for me at that time, which is also empowering to think about how much things can change in even four years.

B (24:31)

Yeah.

A (24:32)

What about for you? What's the biggest change from 2022 Olivia to 2026 Olivia?

B (24:37)

Kind of everything. In a weird way, it's like I live somewhere different. My social life is different. My career is totally different. How I feel about myself is different. How I interact with the Internet, though the same in many ways, is very different. If I had to choose one way, I mean, I think in 2022, how I was making money was so different than now, I could have truly never imagined giving up any Part of influencing in any way. Like, it was so much of a important income stream to me, and I just had no idea how I was going to pivot. And similar to what you said, like launching a substack, I was terrified to do that. Like, letting go of some freelance stuff and writing essays on my own and sending them out and doing paid subscription. It was all very, very, very scary. And yeah, like you said, looking back, it's just wild how much things can change. But let this be a lesson to anyone. If you want to change things, you can. I'm telling you, if you think you can. I felt the same way. And yeah, I think that's really cool.

A (25:41)

Well, let's jump into our highs and lows from that episode. Should we do some highs?

B (25:47)

And let's do it.

A (25:49)

Tell me your high.

B (25:50)

So my high is being in New York today. I haven't been in New York in two years. I used to live here for about four years. And it is the most beautiful, sunny, perfect temperature spring day that you could ever imagine. Just the optimal day in New York. And it just feels really exciting to be here, to be recording, to be doing this. I feel really hopeful and, like, inspired by everything. And it just feels like the perfect way to kick off spring. And I'm excited.

A (26:22)

If we were in college, this would be skirt day. Did you have skirt day?

B (26:26)

Is that the first day where you cannot wear pants?

A (26:29)

It's. I mean, it's kind of sexist. I feel like men used to say this, but also we called it that too. So everyone agreed on skirt date where it was the first day that it was warm enough. And when I was in college, at least everyone wore their denim skirt.

B (26:44)

I did have a denim skirt I was very attached to. And I also wore it with my, like, ankle height Uggs.

A (26:50)

Yes.

B (26:50)

And it was. It was very much a spring look. So I. So I can really.

A (26:54)

So today is skirt day.

B (26:55)

It is.

A (26:56)

I don't own a denim skirt anymore.

B (26:58)

I don't either, thank God.

A (27:00)

But I feel like they're back.

B (27:01)

They are. And it's like also the low rise version. And I'm like, why? Why has fashion forsaken me in this way?

A (27:09)

I truly can't decide how on board I'm going to get with this kind of 90s revival trend. Right now I'm saying I am not going to, but I'm curious if I get sucked in.

B (27:19)

I. I thought that way too. I was like, oh, the square toe heels, the sunglasses. And now I kind of want all of it. So I guess I'm just along for the ride. But there are certain things, like, sure, every time I see someone in, like, a flare legging, I'm like, I want to be you. But also, I'm frightened.

A (27:39)

My hard tail is from college.

B (27:41)

Yes, exactly.

A (27:42)

Oh, man.

B (27:44)

Exactly. Okay. What about you?

A (27:47)

My high. Is this. Is that cheesy?

B (27:50)

No.

A (27:51)

I'm excited. I'm so excited to have the whole day with you. I am realizing, or I was realizing when I wrote this outline, you and I have never hung out one on one in person, which sounds like an insane thing to say, having invited you to co host this podcast with me.

B (28:12)

It does, but I think it kind of makes it better in a way.

A (28:15)

I think it's very on brand for me. I moved to San Francisco without ever having been there. I think I am somewhat of an impulsive person and I just kind of feel vibes.

B (28:25)

Yes, same, same.

A (28:26)

And so I feel good about it. But Olivia and I have been having a bi weekly zoom call since the beginning of the year, chatting about the podcast and what we want to do. So we've spent time together. We've met in person before, but it was with other people and we followed each other on Instagram for a while, but this is the first time we're on a date. Should I have poured us wine for this?

B (28:49)

I mean, it is 2:49 on a Friday.

A (28:53)

We opened wine listeners. We did.

B (28:58)

Cheers.

A (28:59)

Cheers. What about on the low side?

B (29:01)

So my low is something that has been frustrating me for a while, but it's that I have totally lost all control of any sort of social media habit, boundary, or, like, rules. And I just feel like I am constantly scrolling and with really zero purpose, and there is truly nothing in this world that makes me feel worse or less focused than that. And I used to be pretty good about, like, setting timers or sort of setting a social media schedule for myself and being more intentional about it, but I have just gotten just completely off track and it feels like shit. I can curse on here, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. So I really want to fix that, but, yeah, it's just felt like garbage. I don't know if you can relate.

A (29:56)

I can totally relate. I feel like every time I get my screen time report on Sundays, I'm like, you did what?

B (30:03)

It's horrifying. It's like just a punch to the gut every time I'm like, oh, oh.

A (30:09)

Well, you know what has made me feel better, which is not a solution. It's not the right solution, is that I've spent so much time playing SimCity on my phone that in comparison, my social media time is tame.

B (30:24)

Okay. That is a strategy I was not expecting, but I will consider it's all relative. Okay.

A (30:33)

Get yourself a bigger problem.

B (30:35)

All right, good. Good point. Maybe I'll do like a candy crush situation.

A (30:41)

Oh, yeah, sure.

B (30:42)

Okay. Honestly, anything would feel better than just spending hours consuming other people's lives because it, it does not make me feel good about myself at all. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. Hopefully I can get a handle on it.

A (30:53)

I can absolutely relate to that.

B (30:59)

So my first thing I'd like to say is I'm glad I started with the high that I would say that I discuss the most here, which is the weather. I was like, let's start as boring as possible. Just talk about it being spring. And then I will do that just for the rest of the four years of the podcast going forward. It was like, okay. It was really interesting, but safe. Maybe I was nervous, but I did

A (31:24)

feel like you showed a tremendous amount of growth in your low, where you talked about social media habits and how addicted you felt to your phone at that time, which is something that I feel like has dramatically changed.

B (31:38)

Yes. That was really fun for me to listen to, actually. I remembered that feeling I was talking about so clearly of like. And I still, of course, have my moments with social and scroll too long, but I really just have changed it all. I do wanna know, are you still playing SimCity?

A (31:53)

I'm not, I'm not playing anything. You know, my time waster right now is threads.

B (31:58)

Mm.

A (31:59)

But I feel fine about my phone usage right now. I'm not really looking to change anything. I've, I've made my peace and at this moment, subject to change.

B (32:07)

I also appreciated the mention of skirt day, which you mentioned just a couple

A (32:11)

weeks ago, and I can't think about it. I can't tell you.

B (32:14)

Have I told you this before? I was like, I think you have.

A (32:16)

I noticed that B.C. posted a photo of, like, girls sitting on the steps in, like, sundresses on the first nice day. And they didn't call it skirt day, but I was like, that was so much part of the culture of my college experience.

B (32:30)

I, I, I mean, it's a powerful thing. I talked about it too. Of course. I also want to flag the part where I was like, I can curse on here, can't I? And I just love going from that question to let's do an episode entirely about a hard boiled egg themed erotica.

A (32:49)

Like, I, I will say I really

B (32:51)

got over that quickly.

A (32:52)

The obscure erotica episodes have gotten you to say turns a phrase I don't think I ever would have expected you to say. Paul Positive.

B (33:00)

Yeah, I really. I've grown. It's personal growth. There you go.

A (33:03)

For the meat of this episode, we took selected questions from the New York Times, the 36 questions that lead to love, which was featured in the Modern Love column. And basically the idea was you do this with a romantic partner, and you ask increasingly vulnerable questions and you both answer them, and it fosters mutual vulnerability and connection. And so we did this with each other, not as romantic partners, but as podcast co hosts. And it was really sweet to listen back to. Maybe we could revisit some of those questions.

B (33:43)

Yes, let's do it. So the first question was very straightforward, and it was, given the choice of anyone in the world, who. Whom would you want as a dinner guest? So here is what we said in 2022,

A (33:57)

I would pick Shonda Rhimes.

B (33:59)

Okay.

A (33:59)

Which I get is maybe a weird answer, but I just think she is. I would have so many questions for her.

B (34:05)

I think that's a great answer.

A (34:06)

Also, I read her memoir, and I feel like we would get along. Like, I feel like it would be a fun dinner.

B (34:11)

Can I come?

A (34:12)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (34:13)

Since I don't have someone to choose, it's too overwhelming for me to pick one person. So I will come to you.

A (34:18)

You're punt on this one?

B (34:19)

Yeah. Yeah.

A (34:20)

Okay.

B (34:21)

Do you want to do it again and I can just ask you so it's not awkward?

A (34:24)

No, we're just going to leave all that in.

B (34:26)

Okay, great.

A (34:27)

We're working out the kinks. Right off the bat, you went with no answer.

B (34:36)

I was, like, starting strong, talking about the weather, and then nothing.

A (34:41)

Okay. Four years later, you must have been thinking about this. Redeem yourself. Who would you take to dinner today?

B (34:49)

Barbara Kingsolbert.

A (34:50)

Okay, great.

B (34:51)

Done, done, done, done. Would you still want to go? I think you still would want to go to dinner with Shonda Rhimes, but tell me if that's changed.

A (34:58)

Oh, my gosh, I would love to go to dinner with Shonda rhimes. Great answer. 2022, Becca. However, if I were answering this question today, I think I would say Jacob Tierney, who is the showrunner, writer, director behind Heated Rivalry, because I would love to hear the candid inside scoop on that process of adapting it. How the meteoric rise has felt to him, how he feels about writing season two now that there's so much pressure. Like, I just. I would want him drunk. I would want him very honest. He would have to take a truth serum beforehand. But I would love to talk about that process.

B (35:37)

That's a great pick. So the next one I had no memory of when I listened to it, but the question was, do you rehearse what you're going to say before talking on the phone? And here's what we said four years ago.

A (35:51)

Third question. Before making a telephone call, do you ever rehearse what you were going to say and why?

B (35:57)

I don't make telephone calls often. And actually, Becca called me the other night and it was like 7pm And I was like, what? What is wrong? There must be something horribly wrong. It was just that she had a scheduling question to ask me. I am not a talking on the phone person and I frequently rehearse things I'm going to say. For example, the first time I went to therapy, I spent like a day just being like, okay, here's what I'm gonna say and here's how I'm gonna say it. I think it's a social anxiety thing, but yes, I do. Do you?

A (36:31)

It depends. So you have hit on one of my recent worst qualities that I have acquired in the past year, probably. And I can tell you specifically who I acquired it from. And it is randomly calling people. And it is because of our casting director for Rom Com Pods Mayunk does this all the time. But also when we're casting, there's usually so much going on and there are so many updates and back and forths. It's just easier. And so I've gotten in the habit because of that of randomly calling people when I need a quick answer for something. And it is easier, but it's really jarring to people.

B (37:10)

It is easier, but yeah, it is alarming. I just expected you to say, like, well, Olivia, I hate you or something, or you're off the podcast before we've even begun. But then I was like, I think I even said, is everything okay?

A (37:23)

So if that was why I was calling, if I ever have to deliver bad news, then, yes, I would rehearse. So if I have to say something that I think might upset somebody, I would usually that's a work context, not a personal context.

B (37:37)

Very thoughtful of you.

A (37:38)

Or the few times I've done phone interviews for things, I will sometimes rehearse what I'm going to say. But on the reg, no, I am a shoot from the hip. I'm going to randomly call you on a Tuesday night person.

B (37:51)

I feel like that reflects something I like about you, which is that you seem very confident in your choices and what you're going to say and what you think. And I struggle with that sometimes, but I really admire that about you.

A (38:03)

I wonder if make. If doing the podcast will make that less true for you, because I feel like sometimes I'm like, I talk for a living, and, like, there are a lot of my words out there, so each individual one maybe has less importance because I feel like I probably say not. I don't want to say anything racist or harmful or hurtful, but, like, at a micro level, I'm like, yeah, it might.

B (38:28)

It'll be interesting. I. I'm looking forward to see what it'll be like.

A (38:35)

So you said that you do rehearse, and I wondered if hosting this podcast would make you more confident about expressing yourself. Has it, do you think?

B (38:44)

Yes, I think 100%. I am more confident about doing interviews. I rarely rehearse beforehand, even actually, last night I did. It was a reading series at Rough Draft, which is one of my favorite bookstores. And it was me and three other very literary writers, including, like, National Book Award winner. And I. I was scared shitless because the reading was 15 minutes long.

A (39:11)

That's so long. That's.

B (39:12)

It's.

A (39:12)

So. Can I say something shitty?

B (39:16)

Sure.

A (39:16)

That's so boring for an audience to listen to. I.

B (39:20)

Look, they've developed the series. Their audience and their community loves it, and I love that store. So I'm so happy to support them. I read a whole chapter. It felt like I was there for 12 years, just standing there, and I was so nervous. And I said, I'm so nervous, guys. I'm sorry. I don't do this a lot. And someone came up to me, and they were like, you know, I think you don't sound nervous at all. And I think it must be because of the podcast, because, like, you're used to doing that and speaking all the time, and maybe that's the case. But, yeah, I feel like I am much more confident when it comes to expressing exactly what I think and. And talking.

A (39:55)

And do you feel like you are also less afraid of getting it wrong?

B (40:01)

Yes, I am. Which doesn't mean I don't get things wrong, to be clear. But when I was listening to this episode back, there were certain phrases and words I can remember being obsessed by after recording and thinking that I didn't say it clear enough or that I didn't enunciate clearly enough. And now I never really feel that way after we record. I really like, worried over specific sentences, how I Said things. And now I just trust that I'm a thoughtful person. And that doesn't mean it's perfect, but I do my best. But tell me, are you still calling people randomly?

A (40:38)

No, it's not well received. Nobody likes it. I still do like to. And I did just call Grace this afternoon. She was texting me and I just press call and talk to her for a little bit. So I will do it occasionally, but I think as a general rule of thumb, nobody likes a random call.

B (40:56)

Ah. Well, I'm sorry. It seemed like it really worked for you.

A (41:00)

I enjoy it.

B (41:01)

You can still do it sometimes.

A (41:03)

Okay, so the next question that I wanted to rehash was talking about our perfect day. So let's hear what we said back then. So, first of all, it's a Saturday because that means that I still have one day of the weekend in front of me.

B (41:21)

Okay.

A (41:21)

I wake up without an alarm and it's rainy in the morning. It's not going to be rainy all day, but it's rainy in the morning. So I don't feel any pressure that I have to go do something and make the most of the day interesting. I'm going to pour coffee and I'm going to sit on my couch and read for probably like two hours. Maybe get up and get some breakfast in there. At which point it has magically cleared up.

B (41:49)

Well, it can do whatever you want.

A (41:50)

Sure. It's my perfect day. So then the weather's perfect. Maybe I go for a walk first. Maybe I go for a walk and I, like, get some me time. And then I'm going to have lunch with friends. And, like, it's going to be something delicious. And, like, maybe we're going to have a glass of wine or. So it's gonna be really nice then. And I don't have to explain how this happens, but I'm gonna go to a really uncrowded suburban shopping mall. A nice one.

B (42:19)

Is this where Chili's comes in?

A (42:20)

Oh, no, Chili's wasn't even gonna come in. But sure, if there was one, I would go.

B (42:24)

Okay.

A (42:24)

But yeah, we're gonna go to a really uncrowded suburban shopping mall with like a Nordstrom and like a Bloomingdale's.

B (42:33)

You have to come to King of Prussia Mall.

A (42:35)

Love the King of Creshamal. But it has to be not crowded.

B (42:37)

Okay. Yes, I agree. Yep, go on.

A (42:40)

So then we're gonna go shopping also. Alternatively, we could go to the beach.

B (42:47)

Maybe there's a beach in the shopping mall in a scenario.

A (42:50)

I don't have to explain it to you.

B (42:52)

Shonda Rhimes will be on the beach as well.

A (42:54)

That's just how it is. Then I'm gonna come home and I'm gonna have a leisurely amount of time to get ready. And, like, I'm probably gonna take an hour and a half because I'm going to, like, sit down in between and, like, scroll on my phone. There's gonna be no rush. I'm gonna get to put on a fun outfit and, like, do my hair and makeup and feel like I look great. And then I'm gonna go out for, like, the longest dinner. Like, my favorite dinners are where, like, somehow you sit down and it's 7pm and then you're like, the restaurant is closing. Why did they close so early? And you're like, oh, it's 11. And so I want to have a really long, funny, great dinner with friends.

B (43:32)

Do you have a specific restaurant or city in which you want this restaurant to be in?

A (43:38)

Oh, I would love for it to be in New York. I would love for it to be at Vicks in NoHo is one of my favorite restaurants. But I'm flexible.

B (43:45)

Okay.

A (43:45)

I'm flexible. And then we're going to have a nightcap, and it's going to be, I call it the bad decision drink. Where you've already had enough to drink. And. And you're like, is this. Am I gonna be hungover tomorrow?

B (43:55)

I'm familiar with that. Drink.

A (43:56)

And so you have the bad decision drink, but because it's the perfect day, you wake up the next morning not hungover.

B (44:02)

That sounds like it is the perfect day.

A (44:05)

Tell me your perfect day.

B (44:06)

Oh, well, I had to follow that. Gosh. Okay. This is one I did not prep for. So this is just gonna be first thing that comes to mind.

A (44:13)

I didn't prep either. Just go for it.

B (44:14)

And yet I believe that you have had this literally planned out as if it is possible will happen in the very soon future.

A (44:21)

Just shove things you like into a day.

B (44:23)

Okay, cool. So I would like to wake up naturally at like 4:30 or 5am now, this means I have to go to bed really early the night before. But ideally that would happen. It would be the perfect sleep. I'm even going backwards in the perfect day. I'm talking about the perfect night before. So I wake up first thing, coffee. In my mind, this would be like a sprawling farmhouse where I don't see anyone else except maybe my husband and my dog. And I would get my coffee and I would sit outside or in a library with A fire. And if I was sitting outside, there would be birds chirping. It would be kind of like the weather is right now. No humidity, 60 to 65 degrees, not 70. That's too warm.

A (45:12)

Sure.

B (45:12)

Be drinking my coffee leisurely. That would basically be it. Then I would write for like three hours and.

A (45:20)

Oh, you're doing productive things on your perfect day.

B (45:23)

Well, I feel like I have to balance it out. And I feel like when I do something productive in the morning, the reading, the writing, it makes me feel like really good.

A (45:31)

You earned it.

B (45:32)

Yeah. So kind of optional, but you know, maybe I'm feeling really inspired and I write something amazing. Then I move to the couch, I have a cozy blanket and I watch like four to five episodes of a true crime documentary series. Just drinking my coffee, watching the series. Then I go outside and I'm magically in a different city.

A (45:52)

Yeah, magic happens in the city. Yeah.

B (45:54)

I'm no longer at the farmhouse that I don't own in my life. Currently I am now in, let's say it's a city I really enjoy. Let's say I'm in Tuscany. Sure, I'm in Tuscany. I'm in an Italian village and I'm walking around, I'm popping into different shops, I'm buying things, I'm drinking just more coffee. I have so much caffeine in my body, I may possibly just die at any point.

A (46:17)

Yeah, but you don't get caffeine anxiety because it's your perfect diet.

B (46:20)

It's true. It's true. I keep going back to this. So I walk around, I enjoy the sun, I drink coffee, I get a glass of wine somewhere. I. People watch for like an hour at least. Then I.

A (46:31)

Have you eaten anything in your perfect day?

B (46:33)

Oh, true. This is. Who am I? I haven't eaten anything. That's ridiculous. Part of my life is going to good places to eat. Let's see. Well, if I'm in Italy, let's say I'm just popping into some like a bakery or a pizza place. Just like.

A (46:48)

Or like a hidden gem.

B (46:49)

Yes, yes. Where I can just sit in like outdoors, watch people have a glass of wine, eat. Oh my gosh, this is necessary. Just a gigantic bowl of pasta. I love pasta so much. And then for the evening, I think we would do drinks for at least two hours and then again a three hour dinner somewhere delicious. Then drinks again. And then I go home and I put on the coziest pajamas ever and go to bed, I guess.

A (47:22)

So I don't have anything to add. I stand by My perfect Day. We answered something similar in a three things recently. And I don't know if I said the same thing, but 2022, Becca had it. But on yours, Olivia, it felt prophetic when you were talking about this farmhouse and a library with a fireplace. And I was wondering, were you already looking at houses to buy that were in this genre or did you fully manifest this?

B (47:55)

No, I had no memory of saying this whatsoever. And listening back to it was wild.

A (48:01)

It's kind of creepy. It like is your life.

B (48:03)

Well, I was listening and I was like, oh, a farmhouse. And then I was like, library, fireplace. I was like, wow. Yeah, it was really, really. It gave me chills. I will say. 4:30am oh yeah, 4:30am People must have been like, who is this absolute sicko coming on the podcast? I was like, am I?

A (48:25)

Well, 4:30am well, that was deep in your self improvement era. Which, yes, we'll come to later where you were very into getting up at 5.

B (48:38)

I was, I was. And I, and I did enjoy it, but man, that is gone. I also, the true crime thing, I talked about my, my true crime obsession has really waned. And I was thinking about that the other day. Like I used to listen to true crime podcasts really, really regularly every day. I very rarely do now. I still like the docu series, but not as much. It certainly wouldn't be part of my perfect day. Another thing that made me laugh was drinks for two hours, then dinner, then more drinks. My 33 year old self simply would not survive. Like, oh my gosh. And we'll probably talk about this later, but one thing that has really changed in the last four years is I drink probably 2% as much as I used to. Like, I can't do it anymore. I just can't. But I loved that. I was like, one place, another place, another place.

A (49:29)

Bus club, another club. Insert Lady Gaga meme.

B (49:33)

I've been up for 25 hours straight at this point.

A (49:36)

Yeah, I got up at, I got up at 4:30am and I'm gonna go till 2:30 in Tuscany.

B (49:42)

Yeah, a lot of it is. It's still rang true to me, but it was, it was very funny to hear that. I think. I, I mean, I think my 2026 perfect day is similar in some ways. It's the, it's the reading, it's the coffee, fireplace. Maybe more thrifting.

A (49:59)

Would you work on your perfect day? I was surprised when you said that it would involve working, writing, which is pleasurable work, but still mentally taxing in a way where I'm not sure I would put it in my perfect day.

B (50:14)

I think I would. But, yeah, I think even just journaling, you know, just writing something that doesn't have to be seen by anyone. It's just like I said. I think I said this in the episode. I always feel better when I do it. So, yeah, I think so. Going darker to the next question, which was, do you have a hunch about how you would die? And here is what we talked about then.

A (50:39)

Cancer. Cancer for sure. My mom died of cancer. And I feel like I am very fearful of dying young. And I feel very strongly about going to the doctor every year because. And this is not a rational recommendation, but the last time you got blood work in my head is the last time you could have developed secret cancer. So it like every time you get blood work and you get a clean bill of health, like, that's the most recent the secret cancer could have started. So it can't go too bonkers in your body between appointments.

B (51:16)

In my head, I think you might have health anxiety. Like, I have.

A (51:20)

It is very specific health anxiety, but, like, I don't ever manifest symptoms or think that something bad is going to happen, but I have, like a high level health anxiety.

B (51:32)

Okay. Like, when you do have a symptom. So this is how it is for me. Like, if I have. Let's say, what was a good example? Let me think. Oh, I was having heart palpitations a few weeks ago, and given how much I just talked about enjoying coffee, that probably surprises none of you, but to me, I was like, well, well, that

A (51:50)

skin, that's a scary symptom.

B (51:52)

It is, but it's surprisingly common for anxiety or too much coffee or even if you're dehydrated. I mean, literally, the list can go on and on, but for me, I will Google myself into a dark, dark WebMD hole where I am now convinced that I have, like, my heart is gonna fail. Is that something you would have? Or you'd be normal and be like, I'm gonna make a doctor's appointment and that's gonna be it?

A (52:19)

No, I would absolutely. If it was that abnormal, like, if I had a lump somewhere, I would definitely freak out. Or if I had palpitations or something, I would definitely freak out. But I don't know, I don't, like, on a day I feel fine, I don't, like, manifest symptoms.

B (52:36)

Okay, that makes sense. Well, I can definitely relate. And that is not a good feeling.

A (52:40)

Like, if I ever have a headache, I'm not, like, I'm Dying or like, okay, I have a headache.

B (52:45)

That's fair. I usually do think I'm dying. Oh.

A (52:49)

What about you? Do you have a secret hunch about how you will die?

B (52:52)

I. Not specifically, but I do have really intense, like I said, health anxiety. And I tend to panic about symptoms and this. For example, about a year ago, I went to the ER because I was having abdominal pain, and it turned out to be a symptom, but which is, you know, it was fine. Not comfortable, but fine. And they did the CAT scan or whatever it was at the ER after waiting for, you know, a billion hours, and they were like, well, you know, it's just a cyst. But also, we found this unidentified thing.

A (53:25)

That's scary.

B (53:26)

And they were like. And on the report it says could be malignant, could not be. And for me, there is nothing in the world that can send me into a bigger panic than that. And I spent, like, two days crying, thinking I have the worst form of the most rare cancer in the world.

A (53:42)

That feels reasonable.

B (53:43)

Yes. Okay, thank you. It's a terrible, terrible, terrible feeling. But. So I don't have a hunch as much as I just kind of suspect everything at all times. Yeah. So I found this health anxiety discussion very interesting because it reminded me how much health anxiety was part of my life then. And I wanted to talk about it because I still have my moments. I had my skin cancer panic last summer. But for the most part, health anxiety is not part of my life anymore, and I think that's through a lot of therapy. And honestly, to go back to the Reddit stuff, I just am so prone to compulsively checking things, like, if I don't get it under control, I will be out of control if I'm not very strict. And I think sometimes it was looking at stuff on Reddit, sometimes at one brief point it was goodreads, ratings or reviews. And then it was also, like, symptom, Googling nonstop. And it's all kind of the same. Am I okay? Am I okay? Am I okay? And I think I've just. I've really made a lot of progress here of not doing that, and I'm really proud of myself, and I wanted to call that out. If there's anyone listening who has struggled with health anxiety, you can get better, I promise, but it's hard.

A (55:03)

Yeah, I noticed here and then also with the social media conversation up front. And I was. I was kind of wondering about this when I saw it in the outline. How much of this has changed versus how much of it you Just choose not to talk about it in public. So I'm so happy to hear that you feel really good about this right now.

B (55:21)

Yeah, I really, really do. Do you still feel the same about

A (55:25)

like 100%, the blood work thing? Yep. And I, I think I, if anything, feel more strongly about it on behalf of other people. Never tell me that you have not had blood work in the last year.

B (55:39)

I've learned that lesson.

A (55:40)

Unless you would like to hear about it until you go get blood work.

B (55:43)

I've learned. I mean, you could save someone's life with that, so be annoying.

A (55:49)

I'm just gonna call you off the cuff at all times, being like, did you get your blood work yet?

B (55:54)

Well, onto a question about more death. This one was, if you knew in one year you would die suddenly, what would you change about how you're living? And I thought this one was very interesting to reflect on. Here's what we said. What would you change?

A (56:09)

I would quit my job.

B (56:10)

Okay.

A (56:12)

I feel like savings wise. I like, would pull out my investments, I have plenty of money to live for a year. I would not work. I would live my perfect day as often as possible. I would travel way more. Like, I would just be like, okay, every month, where are we going? I would definitely be treating myself more as you should. It's kind of like. Have you ever seen the movie Last Holiday with Queen Latifah?

B (56:40)

I have. Very much enjoy.

A (56:41)

Yeah. And she like spends all her like life savings and then finds out that she's not actually dying. Spoiler. It's okay, it's a 20. It's a 20 year old movie. Like the statute of limitations on spoilers is over.

B (56:54)

I agree.

A (56:54)

Yeah, like, that would be me. So, like, I guess I better hope that the diagnosis is correct because otherwise I'm gonna be dead broke.

B (57:02)

What about you? Of course. I mean, I think the biggest thing I would change is just that I would really stop giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks.

A (57:14)

Oh, for sure.

B (57:15)

That's something I really struggle with and find myself really preoccupied about. And for what? For what reason? So that's the biggest thing. And I think from there every other decision would follow.

A (57:29)

But you would still live in Philly. Would you go anywhere?

B (57:32)

Yeah, I think I would travel as much as possible, just like you. I think I'd stop doing the work that I just do to pay the bills with writing. And instead I just write what I wanted to write.

A (57:43)

I would want to finish my book. If I knew that I was dying in a year, I would stay committed

B (57:46)

to that I think that's a sign that you should always be writing.

A (57:53)

So this is what I was referring to when I was talking about that I felt really into the Christmas Orphans Club based on re listening to this episode. I was pleased to hear me say that. But I will say, having published that book, having published another book, if I were to get a prophetic diagnosis today, I don't think I would start book three. I would not be like, I need to start and finish this before my time is up. I would travel. I would chill. I would see everyone I love.

B (58:23)

Yeah, I thought it was so cool how many of the things you were talking about, you've done. Like, you quit your job, you published your book, and I don't know, did. Did that feel as good to you as it felt me to listen to? No.

A (58:36)

No. It didn't feel it. No.

B (58:40)

Okay, well, explain that. Why?

A (58:41)

I don't know why I'm so bad at appreciating my accomplishments, but no, I was just like, oh, yes, well, now I just have different other work. Like, I think I meant I would quit my job and live a life of leisure. Not, I would quit my job and start a newsletter and content business and devote more time to writing books.

B (59:03)

I see. Okay, I get it. Because you're saying now if you got the same question, you would quit your job. It's just you have a different job.

A (59:12)

Yeah, exactly.

B (59:13)

Exactly. I see. I understand. I understand.

A (59:16)

Now talk to me about. You said you would stop caring what people think. Do you think you have made strides here? Or is this something that would change dramatically in your head if you were to get a diagnosis? With one year to live today?

B (59:30)

I mean, I think I will always be, like, very perception focused. It's just something I'm always going to be working on. But I could hear in my voice, I knew I was thinking about the Reddit stuff when I said this. I could just remember so clearly, just everything I had read and how bad I felt about it and how I was trying so hard not to think about it. I really do think I have made, like, significant strides in this area. And it's not that I never think about it, like I said, but I just am very clear on, like, what I want to do and who I am. And I still want everyone to like me, but I'm. I'm very aware that, like, that's not possible. And I'm just a lot more comfortable in my own skin and about owning the things that I'm really passionate about. And I'm. I'm really Happy about that for sure.

A (60:22)

Would you answer this differently today?

B (60:24)

Hmm. Gosh. I mean, I think I would wanna care even less what people think. Maybe so in some ways, no, but I think, hmm. I mean, I think for the most part, I like a lot about my life enough that I would wanna keep it the same right now. Of course, there are some things I would change. I would probably delete Instagram off my phone for good. I would travel a ton. But honestly, like, I think a lot of it can stay, which is something I'm proud of.

A (60:49)

Well, let's go on to this next question, which we won't replay for you because it's a long one, but this is where I felt like I either got it so wrong or so much has changed and I need you to tell me which it is. So the prompt was for us to take turns sharing five positive things, each about your partner, in this case, your podcast co host. And so I said about you, I appreciated your openness about your weirdness, your dedication to self improvement, that you were great at doing event makeup, citing specifically a wedding you had been to recently, that you seem like a good time and that you're happy with your life. I.

B (61:36)

And now you are convinced I am not a good time?

A (61:39)

No, but I was just like questioning how good a read I had on you again, first time we met. Do you think that I got you wrong at that time and you were just too nice to say anything? Like, I don't picture you as wearing a ton of makeup. Like, I'm like, why did I pick that?

B (61:55)

Well, I think I did then. You know, I think I was a lot more. I lived my life in a way that was a lot more appearance forward in a lot of ways. And one of those was my physical appearance. And part of it was that I was just filming myself all the time, you know, so when you're doing the front facing camera and you have to record it 10 times and then send it to the brand, like, you're just. You wear more makeup because you have to stare at yourself more. At least I did. I would not consider being good at makeup to be something that is a quality that I really have right now, which is okay. I mean, I'm still very happy with my life.

A (62:27)

Yes. I don't disagree with that.

B (62:30)

To be clear, I think I was very dedicated to self improvement to a degree that I think sometimes was great and sometimes was just desperately trying to feel okay about myself. I think I may be more dedicated to self acceptance.

A (62:46)

Now, that's an interesting switch.

B (62:48)

The Openness about my weirdness is I think is kind of connected to the seems like a good time, which I still do think I am a good time. I drink a lot less now. Like a lot. And I think I was both sillier because of that and to be clear, like I never had a drinking problem or anything. But I just.

A (63:08)

No, but this was like a lot of Tipsy Candle Jake and Olivia, like I remember you did a video where you did Jake's makeup and some of this might just be your content era too of like coming up with different content hooks.

B (63:23)

Yeah. And Tipsy Candles was so random at first. It was truly just that that I posted in real time all the time and that we happened to be tips and the candles were there. That was truly the origin story of it. And I'm still weird and we're still silly. It's just that I, I think I show up differently online. So maybe it just comes across differently. And it's not that I'm fundamentally different other than I do drink a lot less and I'm focused on other things a lot of time. And I think I am a little bit serious isn't really the right word. Maybe I just, I'm a lot more thoughtful about what I post and don't post probably because I don't have access to it all the time and I don't give myself access to it all the time. So I think a lot about does this need to be out there and why?

A (64:11)

Yep.

B (64:11)

Which I'm sure means that there's a lot less like natural, weird, off the cuff, funny stuff. But for me it's a trade off that is worth it because I take a beat but I think a lot of it is still the same and I think for 2022, Olivia, this is a, this is a great read. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, what do you think is the. Is the area that I'm that makes you say like, oh, I got it really wrong now.

A (64:34)

The makeup really threw me, to be honest. And it's just that if I were. And we're going to. I'm going to make you do this maybe with fewer but if I we were to repeat this exercise today, none of these things would come up, I don't think with the exception of happy with your life.

B (64:51)

Well, that's good. That's interesting. Well, for you I said I think I was more right. Maybe I don't think this is all there is to you, but however, I

A (65:01)

think that you gave me five variations on the same compliment.

B (65:04)

Well, I didn't know you that well.

A (65:06)

I know. Yes. It was a. It was a steep exercise for two people who had never met in person.

B (65:12)

Yes. So I said you were confident, independent. You got shit done. I think that's different decision making. That's not different. That's the same. And you were willing to discontinue things you didn't like, specifically, like, with books. And you talked about how that was really a learned skill because you have so many books to read and, you know, you want to leave time for the ones you really love. But, I mean, I think all of those are still very true about you. I think I still consider those very positive things about you. And I think the confidence one, I think then maybe you seemed really unflappable to me in every way. Whereas now, like, I definitely have. We've both been through periods of, like, insecure. We've both been through, like, lots of insecurity and doubt and all of those. So, you know, so, like, you're not just one thing in that regard. But generally, I still do think you're a very confident person and you operate with confidence. But. Yeah, sorry, they are all variations, but.

A (66:13)

Well, okay, can we. I know this is uncomfortable. Can we do this again, maybe with just three things?

B (66:21)

Three things. Fitting.

A (66:22)

I'm turning my camera back on to look at you while I say these. Do you want to alternate or do you want to do one at a time?

B (66:28)

It's up to you. Whatever you want.

A (66:30)

Okay, we'll do it how we did it the last time. We'll do it one at a time. Okay. So my first thing I admire about you is, is your sense of gratitude and awe about your daily life. Whether that's light coming in through a window, your coffee, Winnie doing something cute like. I just think you have a tremendous sense of appreciation for your life. And that is something that I think I can be blase about and always be onto the next thing or what's not right. And so I really admire that about you.

B (67:06)

Thank you. That means a lot to me. My first thing that I have learned about you that I really admire is your deep loyalty and commitment to lifelong friendships. I find really beautiful. And, you know, we just did that whole book club episode. And I think it is so rare, maybe even more rare than you think, to have a group of friends that you still talk to daily from college from that long ago, and everyone in different places in different stages. And I think the fact that you're still in all of their lives speaks volumes to, like, how loyal you are. And how you show up for people and. And, yeah, I really respect that.

A (67:47)

Thank you.

B (67:48)

You're welcome.

A (67:49)

Okay. For my next one, I.

B (67:51)

Makeup.

A (67:52)

No, your eye makeup.

B (67:54)

I sit here with nothing on. Yeah.

A (67:57)

I really admire your dedication to your writing practice and specifically to continually improving yourself as a writer. And I think that that's something that I know you talked a lot about with the jump from such a bad influence to little one and is so apparent in that finished product. Not to say anything bad of such a bad influence, which I loved, but I think that that dedication and not just being like, well, I wrote a book and I will write another one and do it the exact same way, but your commitment to improvement is, like, incredibly inspiring to make me want to do the same.

B (68:37)

Thank you. Well, my next one is kind of similar, and it's kind of in the realm of the ones I mentioned four years ago, but I think I have a different take on it now, which is you are so hardworking. And I know that that's, like I said, very similar to confident, independent, all those things, which you are. But you are just really committed, I think, to creating the best product every single time you do something, whether it's this podcast or your books or your newsletter. And that is really inspiring to me as someone who. It's not that I can get lazy, but sometimes I just feel like I don't know if I have another idea or I don't know if I can do this newsletter and make it interesting. And you just always, I think, push yourself so hard to create the best thing possible. And. And, yeah, I really admire that.

A (69:28)

Thank you. Just as a sidebar, this is, like, the best part of my day. This is, like, so nice to give you compliments and to receive compliments.

B (69:36)

I'm excited to listen to the episode back.

A (69:38)

Okay. My third thing is your willingness to be vulnerable publicly. I think, specifically in your substack essays and on Instagram, which I know is not necessarily, like, the biggest part of your life or career right now, but I think that how you show up and are willing to share about your insecurities, to share about your feelings, is something that I think is so beautiful, and I think it connects people so deeply to you, myself included. Like, when you have a substack essay, I feel like I read the comments section sometimes, and I'm like, these people are, like, seeing themselves reflected, and I think that's so beautiful and such a skill, too, to be able to distill a personal experience into something that is universal, that other people can relate to. And it's something that I think is really rare and special and unique.

B (70:38)

Thank you. That's so sweet. That means a lot. My final thing is sort of specific, but it's how you show up for the book community. I feel like you are so good at lifting up other authors, those that you know, those that you don't know, and me and Grace and everyone. But I think also just the quality of the content you provide on your newsletter when it comes to books and readers and making sure everyone has something that they. They want to read and never denigrating any genre but celebrating them all. And I think it just does so much for the book community and for readers. And yeah, I'm sure there are like hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of people that have found a favorite book because of your suggestions. And that's. I mean, what could be better than that? And that's all because of the work and care you put into it. So. Yeah.

A (71:29)

Thank you. This was incredibly heartening for me.

B (71:35)

It was really nice. I really like this episode.

A (71:38)

Me too.

B (71:40)

Well, that was wonderful. But I do want to quickly talk about our 2022 obsessions and what we are reading because I think it's a fun little time capsule that I enjoyed so much. So here is what we were obsessed with in this week of March 2022.

A (72:01)

Tell me what you're obsessed with.

B (72:04)

I've decided to go with a entertainment TV choice for this week's obsession. The last time I recorded, I did a fashion choice. So let's talk about what I'm watching. I just watched this docu series on Netflix called Bad Vegan.

A (72:19)

Oh, I'm hearing about that everywhere.

B (72:21)

I am still processing it, like both emotionally and mentally. It is the most batshit thing I've ever seen. It's sad in some ways, but in other ways it's just like human beings have so many layers to them. And I'm so concerned for some people out there. I just. It's a lot and I highly suggest you watch.

A (72:45)

What's the high level pitch?

B (72:48)

Oh, gosh.

A (72:48)

It's about a vegan.

B (72:50)

Yes, it's about this woman who owned a very hip, raw vegan restaurant in New York, I want to say in the early 2000 and tens. And essentially she got involved with a guy who was not a good guy, was not who he said, and she ended up going to jail. And the details in between are so crazy. You will just be watching the show and you'll be like, did they just say what I think they said? And it's just it is a journey. If you like scammer documentaries, this look makes Anna Delvey look like nothing interesting. Yes, I highly suggest. What about you?

A (73:30)

Okay. I have two, and they're both beauty ones, which is rare for me. I am a very tried and true beauty product person and I have just been buying things on Sephora so much more frequently than I usually do. And I don't know. I don't know what's brought this on. So I have two new things to recommend. So the first thing is I was on a quest for a new concealer.

B (73:54)

I'm very curious about this, by the way, because I feel like this is one of the hardest beauty products to find.

A (73:59)

So I was using the Makeup Forever concealer, which a friend of mine uses, and I always think it looks really good on her.

B (74:05)

It.

A (74:05)

I feel like ultimately it was a little too drying for me and I didn't like the way that it looked. So I decided that this was like an in person quest. I needed to go to the Sephora store and so I went. And what I ended up doing is I tried on a bunch of them and then I left and I bought two different ones because I wanted to try them at home because I feel like my lighting is different. Sephora's are like, kind of dark and I don't know, like you're pressured to make a decision. And Sephora has a great return policy. Like you can return anything at a Sephora, so even if you used it. So. So I bought two. I bought the hourglass concealer. I don't remember the name of it. And then I bought the Dior Forever skin fix one. And I prefer the Dior one.

B (74:52)

Okay.

A (74:53)

And I like that it's not. It's like pretty moist.

B (74:58)

I'm sold.

A (74:59)

It's pretty, like, I don't know, like it isn't too drying, which was the problem I was having with the other one. And I really liked the hourglass one, but I felt like once I let it set in, it kind of like made some fine lines under my eyes. And this one did not settle into fine lines. And Olivia's staring at me and I'm like, oh, my God, do I find lines under my eyes?

B (75:19)

And like the sun is kind of coming in behind you, so it's really hard for me to really see, but it looks good.

A (75:24)

Okay. So I'm really happy with my choice. I did something really funny that day because. So I went to the Sephora and I probably tried on like six, seven different concealers and I was kind of just like, using different parts of my eye to, like, try them on. And, you know, they have, like, the clean wands to use. I'm sure it's not the most sanitary thing in the world and somebody's cringing

B (75:42)

right now, but I think you're fine.

A (75:43)

I did it.

B (75:44)

I haven't cleaned my brushes in, like, I won't even say, yeah, it's been a while.

A (75:48)

So I had on, like, so many different ones to figure out which ones. I even, like, liked the formula of and, like, what the right color was. I, like, had a mask on, too, and I picked two when I left, and I completely forgot that I had done this. And then I came home, and I got on a zoom call, and I had, like, six different colors of concealer that, like, wasn't well blended. And, like, also it started to go up on my cheek because I ran out of space, and I, like, got a zoom call, and I still, to this day.

B (76:16)

Do you have to commit to it

A (76:17)

at that point, I was gonna say, I was like, I do not know if the person I was on the call with noticed it was a man. And I was like, he didn't say anything. And I was like, I'm not gonna say anything.

B (76:30)

If it was a man, then I think you're probably fine.

A (76:32)

So, anyway, I found a new concealer, and then I also bought a new blush, which I heard recommended on another podcast. Erica Cerulo, on a thing or two, recommended the Westman Atelier blush in petal, and it's a stick blush.

B (76:49)

That sounds expensive.

A (76:52)

Sure was. No, it wasn't, like, the most expensive. It wasn't cheap.

B (76:55)

Okay.

A (76:56)

I think it was probably, like, $48.

B (76:57)

I use the stick blush, so I'm very curious.

A (76:59)

Oh, I only use cream blushes, and right now I was using the rare ones, the Selena Gomez ones, which I actually love.

B (77:06)

They're so pigmented.

A (77:08)

They're so great. But I actually like this stick so much better. This color is also, like, it's kind of a dusty rose. Like, it is not the blush color that I would usually use. I am obsessed with it. I've heard so many good things about this brand. They also have a highlighter stick that I really want to try, so I feel like I'm going in for more. But the blush, it's really pigmented, and it stays better than the Selena Gomez one. I don't know. I'm, like, really into it.

B (77:34)

I'm looking at it right now online, and it looks. Looks pretty nice.

A (77:38)

I kind of want a second color, too, because I got the dusty rose one, which is what Erica recommended, and she has somewhat similar coloring to me, and so I. I was just so taken with her description that I wanted to try it. And there's another color, which is a brighter pink, which is more what I would usually get. And I'm like, oh, I like this so much. Should I get the second color, too?

B (77:57)

Why not? It's gonna last you forever.

A (77:59)

And I'm gonna get the highlighter stick, too, so I already am gonna place

B (78:02)

another order that really appeals to me. A highlighter stick? Always.

A (78:05)

Ashley Spivey was talking about it on her story, and she was like, it just looks wet. Like, it's not sparkly. It just looks wet, which is what I want.

B (78:13)

Oh, you want to look moist.

A (78:15)

Yeah, I do. I want to look dewy in a way that, like, isn't sparkly.

B (78:20)

Okay, I can support that.

A (78:22)

And I think that this might achieve that. Like, sometimes I feel like, especially in certain settings, like, sparkly is not what I'm going for.

B (78:29)

Yeah, you want to look dewy, like you like, fresh and.

A (78:31)

Yes.

B (78:32)

Healthy.

A (78:33)

Want to look wet.

B (78:36)

Well, I mean, to each their own. There you go.

A (78:40)

Found it.

B (78:41)

Perfect. Tell me, what concealer are you using these days, and is it one of the ones that you search for? It's not during this trip.

A (78:53)

It is not. I am somewhat not ashamed, but it doesn't feel great to tell you that I'm using Sarah Creel's concealer, which is specifically formulated for mature ladies so it doesn't sink into my creases.

B (79:10)

Four long years.

A (79:11)

Yeah, I know I've aged. They've been hard on me. But it really does live up to the benefit. I really like it now. You were obsessed with bad vegan.

B (79:21)

Yeah. I heard someone mention this the other day, and it made me want to rewatch it.

A (79:24)

Is this something that you would watch today if it came out on Netflix?

B (79:28)

Yes. I love a scammer. Docuseries documentary. Any kind of documentary, really. But, yeah, I would definitely watch this again. In fact, I may later tonight.

A (79:37)

Great. We gotta talk about the reading, though.

B (79:40)

We. We really do. It was such a delight when I got to this part. I. Well, you guys can just listen, and then we'll talk about it.

A (79:49)

Okay. The thing I'm most excited to hear from you is I need your reading update.

B (79:55)

Okay. I wish I could talk about this forever, because this has been the most interesting reading experience for me, because we were talking about dnfing books earlier, and I truly would have stopped reading this book if I had not been cheered on by, like, 100 strangers who were telling me again and again that this series will change my life. So it's a corn of thorns and roses by Sarah J. Maas, which I'm sure you've seen all over Instagram. Like, me. And I got to about 35% of the book before I was like, okay, I'm starting. I'm starting to see what it's all about. And I just passed the scene. I think I described it to you as a fyre festival, fairy orgy, which is.

A (80:40)

That's a correct assessment. Yes.

B (80:42)

Thank you. I wanted to make sure I was understanding everything correctly. And I'm starting to see. I kind of feel.

A (80:48)

You said you were addicted. You said you were hooked.

B (80:50)

I am hooked.

A (80:50)

Don't bury it.

B (80:51)

I was reading it on the Amtrak train this morning.

A (80:53)

So it's now gone from being your nightbook to also being your morning, maybe.

B (80:57)

Cause I don't have a morning book right now, actually. And I may actually move the Kindle. See, the thing is, I sleep on the third floor. We have a very narrow row home. And then.

A (81:05)

Do you live in a trinity?

B (81:07)

Not quite, but trinities are terrifying. It's not quite that narrow, but our stairs are very steep and there's a lot of them. So, like, once I'm down downstairs, I'm not going back up for my Kindle, but I might have to start bringing the Kindle downstairs for the morning book because it is spicy and it feels kind of like it felt when I read Twilight.

A (81:29)

Yeah. Olivia. Oh, I apologize. Because I feel like if this is how you feel 35% into the book.

B (81:39)

And I also, just. Apart from the steamy stuff, I'm really enjoying just the fantasy aspect of it. And I didn't expect the scene where they're swimming in the lake made of starlight. And it sounds like I'm making that up, but that is an actual thing.

A (81:54)

The world building is incredible.

B (81:55)

It's so beautiful. And I feel like it's like an ambiance room, but in book form. I want it to be a series so bad.

A (82:02)

It's going to be. It's going to be a Hulu series. I don't think they've cast or recorded it yet. But the thing is, is, like, I know. And everyone else listening knows that you know nothing. Like, you do not even know what you are in for to the tiniest degree.

B (82:18)

I know there's a massive twist, but I don't know anything else. And I love it. And I am like, I cannot see A spoiler.

A (82:25)

That's the hard thing about Sarah J. Maas books is that I do not feel like the first book in the series is ever as good as the rest of the series. Which is hard because you're like, please commit to this series where the first book is. It's not bad, but it's like it isn't at the same high as the rest of the series and the books are so huge. So it's like, please enjoy this massive first book of a series so that you can really enjoy the second book,

B (82:51)

especially if you don't read fantasy. I found it very difficult to get into because there's a lot going on.

A (82:56)

There's a lot going on, A lot going on.

B (82:58)

And then you kind of start to see where it's headed and you're like, okay, I'm into this. So yeah, I'm into it. I'm very excited. And what are, what are you reading right now? I know you have a lot going on.

A (83:09)

Well, yeah, I'm reading like so many. I'm reading like seven books at once, which is not my M.O. and I don't know how I've gotten to this place, so I feel like I just need to, to close these out.

B (83:18)

It's funny hearing you say that when you're surrounded by literally, I'm not even kidding. No fewer than 1200 books.

A (83:25)

Oh my God.

B (83:25)

Within the pile.

A (83:27)

The pile system is failing me. There's like over here, there's the pile of books that I want to read what was on the coffee table, but it's now on the stool. Those are the books I'm reading.

B (83:38)

It's very magical.

A (83:39)

These are the books that I haven't given up on reading, but I just, I'm not sure when I'm going to read them.

B (83:46)

Well, there's a system to it.

A (83:49)

There's four stacks in the office of ones I'm flat out not going to read. It is a mess over here. Okay, so I am reading, among other things. And I'm talking about those in the current episode. So bear with me. Give me three weeks and we'll be caught up time wise. I'm reading Meant to Be Mine by Hannah Orenstein. And this is her new book which comes out in June. And the premise is this girl who's a New Yorker in her late 20s. Her grandmother has foretold the day that everyone in her family will meet the love of their life, starting with herself. And it's been true for every other person. And so the book opens on the day that Edie who's the main character, is supposed to meet the love of her life. And so I think it's kind of like a fate versus free will type story. It's very cute. You know, I like a kooky grandmother character, and this is like a kooky Jewish grandmother who's very, like, delightful and colorful and likes martinis and plays mahjong. And I'm, like, very into this grandmother, so I'm only about halfway through.

B (84:56)

It sounds adorable.

A (84:57)

It's adorable.

B (85:01)

You know, it was four years ago when Olivia is reading Acotar.

A (85:05)

I. If you gave me 1500 guesses to guess what you were reading, I. I don't think Acotar would have made the list. But it sounded like you were really enjoying it or were you just lying?

B (85:18)

No, no, I think I was. I mean, I think I read the. This book, I read the next one, and then I was out forever. Like, if you were to listen to the fourth Wing episode again, I bet you my tone is really similar, because the thing is that I do really enjoy it for certain moments. I really do enjoy Building the Lake of Starlight or whatever I was talking about in Acotar, but I'm just not drawn to the genre ever again. I never feel compelled to keep going, and I could just hear that in my tone. But I think I was trying to be part of the book community. But, yeah, I do remember reading it on the train on the trip to the city. And, yeah, it surprised me. But I also remembered the fairy orgy, which I hadn't thought about in a long time. Do you remember reading Meant to Be Mine?

A (86:03)

I mean, I couldn't give you a detailed plot summary, but, yes, I do, and I'm trying to think so. Hannah Orenstein, the author of that book, has gone on to become a good friend. And I don't know if we were friends yet. We'd met because I did an event for her during the pandemic for her previous book before Meant to Be Mine, and it was over Zoom. So we never met in person. Yeah. I don't know if we were friends yet. So that was like, kind of a nice walk down memory lane to be like, oh. Cause I didn't. I don't think I said, like, my friend Hannah Orenstein. I think I was just like, bye, Hannah Orenstein.

B (86:35)

Okay, you're probably right. You're probably right. Do you think your reading taste has changed in the last four years?

A (86:40)

I definitely think so. I think maybe more subtly than yours has, although you can be the judge of that. I think I was much more contemporary romance focused in my reading, and I think I have maybe overdone it in some cases. And so I'm reading a lot fewer contemporary romances or seeking out specifically ones that feel very different. And then, you know, I, of course, have my auto buy authors. Like, I'm so excited to read Carly Fortune's new book that will come out in 2026. But I'm. I'm much more seeking newness, and I feel like I am more drawn to. I don't have the right word for it because I really hate the term women's fiction, but women's fiction, where it's not quite literary fiction, it certainly might have a love story, but it has. It has another core story, too, whether that's career, whether that's friendship, whether that is family. Like, I think I'm much more drawn to stories where romance is an element, but not necessarily like the key plot engine.

B (87:40)

I see. Yeah, that makes sense to me.

A (87:42)

How do you think your reading taste has changed over the past four years?

B (87:47)

I think changed, I guess, is one way you could put it. But to me, it just feels like it's become a lot more clear, I guess because I read so much more than I used to, even compared to when I first started the podcast. But I think it's definitely gotten a little. First of all, I think it's gotten much wider in a lot of ways. I think I was primarily reading straight thrillers at this point and the occasional acotar, whereas now it's like I've learned that I do really like literary fiction, and I do like thrillers and mysteries, but I prefer them to be a little more character forward than plot. And I also like romance sometimes, and I still like a thriller now and then, and I'll read fantasy, but it doesn't really do that much for me. So I think I've just read more, and because of that, it's just more honed in and what I like that makes sense.

A (88:36)

Let's wrap up this part of the discussion with. I have three kind of macro questions. So the first thing is that you said earlier that you feel like the podcast has changed your life. And I feel the same way. But I'm curious how you would articulate the ways in which it has changed your life.

B (88:52)

It definitely has. I think I've said this so many times, but really it was just like in this period of 2022, my whole life was going towards reading and writing. And the more that I focused on that, the happier I became and of course, this podcast made it possible to do that in a lot of ways because reading quite literally became part of my job. And I mean, the community, like everything, it's just been wonderful. I mean, I so glad I said yes in so many ways. And of course, like, the ways that it has supported my career as an author are countless, as do you know. And yeah, it's just. It's been a gift.

A (89:33)

Do you feel like there are negatives?

B (89:36)

I think that when I was much more concerned with outward perception at the very beginning, it was stressful for me at first and especially when at the same time, I didn't really have my footing as a someone who podcasted. But no, I mean, I love talking about books, I love chatting about writing. I love meeting people in person. I think it's nice to have somewhere to be every week. I mean, sure, some weeks, do I wish that I could just only write for five days straight and not have to record anything? Yeah. But I think ultimately it's good to have some structure. I don't know. How do you feel about it? You've been doing it for twice the time I have, so I'm sure you have a variety of feelings.

A (90:16)

I feel like the podcast has fundamentally changed my life. I would not have attempted to write a book if not for the podcast and meeting authors and realizing that they were mortal human beings. I think because of the podcast, I've been more open to exploring, exploring different creative outlets that I probably wouldn't have gone down the road of. It was really funny when I listened to the very first episode. One of the books I talked about was Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, which I had recently read. And I identified myself as a medium creative person. And Grace clarified that. She said that she thought I was a business creative person. Like, meaning in brainstorming situations, I would have a lot of ideas, but I specifically said, well, I don't know how to paint or play an instrument. And now painting is a hobby that I've taken up. Granted, I haven't done it very much since moving, but it's something that I really enjoy and I feel much more open to exploring aspects of my creativity that I don't know that I would have without the podcast. Also, you know, with regards to my career, not just that I decided and had the audacity to try writing a book, but, you know, at this point, for better or for worse, and it is sometimes there are for worses, every aspect of my career is public facing in some way. And prior to the podcast, you know, I did the podcast with Grace, not because I probably had 600 Instagram followers. You know, not that that's a measure of anything, but I was not operating as a public person. Grace and I met at work and she was, you know, one of my best friends in my real life and she asked me to host the podcast with her because I was her friend who read the most and who she at the time thought she had the most similar reading taste to. I think by virtue of the podcast we explored maybe that there is more differences in our reading taste than we might have guessed. But yeah, coming into this I had no public facing platform and I think the flip side of that is there is a negative there. And to be clear, you know, I'd say the positive to negative contribution is like 4 to 1. And I'm so grateful. But I do think that it has affected my confidence and anxiety in ways by putting myself out there for judgment. Like I specifically remember at one point early on in the podcast when Grace was my co host saying that I didn't identify as an anxious person and I didn't experience a lot of anxiety. And now I would not say that. And you know, that could be many factors. We went through a global pandemic. I'm older and maybe feel more pressure to achieve what I'm going to achieve to be good at things versus in your 20s you have maybe more flexibility based on expectations of 20 somethings. But yeah, I would not say that I don't identify as ever experiencing anxiety at this point in my life.

B (93:20)

Well, it comes for all of us eventually.

A (93:22)

Yeah. And, and so yeah, it's not fair to put that on the all on the podcast. But I do think fear of perception is something that I, I probably would not have identified with prior to hosting this podcast. And somewhere along the way has like crept in because of multiple factors.

B (93:37)

It's almost like it's had the opposite effect on my anxiety in a strange way. And maybe that's just because I sort of slightly become less online. But I remember thinking when I joined the podcast, oh, this is going to be great because anyone who looks at my what I post on Instagram and doesn't understand what I mean or has something negative to say, they'll be able to listen to me on the podcast and I'll be able to talk for longer so they're really going to understand that I'm great and they, they shouldn't hate me. But now I think, oh my gosh, you sweet, sweet idiot. But in a way it's like I've moved away from that entirely now. It is nice to have a platform and you can explain yourself in longer than an Instagram story, certainly. But I guess it's just an example of the ways I was looking to minimize my own anxiety through being perceived a certain way, being able to control it. And I think I've learned in four years that you can't, unfortunately.

A (94:29)

Also to loop back to ways that's changed my life. I feel like it has introduced me to some great friends and allowed me to have conversations with so many favorite authors and people I admire that I would never have had access to otherwise.

B (94:46)

Absolutely. How have you felt about the podcast over the last year, specifically?

A (94:51)

I felt good. I feel like I specifically have gotten better at book club outlines and being more thoughtful there. I have really, really liked the episodes that we've done. There was the episode about failure. There was the episode about portfolio careers where kind of have two different guests on and talk about a topic from different angles. Or even the episode we did about comparison. I've really enjoyed those conversations. All credit goes to you on those. I wouldn't have maybe naturally volunteered for that emotional vulnerability. And I've found those conversations to be really some of our best and also ones we've gotten the best feedback on. And I feel like we've settled into a groove. I feel like maybe in. I don't know if this was in 2024 or 2023, but I felt a lot of stress about wanting to please people and not knowing how to structure our guest strategy of who we should have on the podcast and how to make people happy. And I think I feel like we've settled into a good groove. I do sometimes question if that's good or boring. But then I think about what I want from my favorite podcasts, and for the most part it's consistency. I want them to publish on a consistent schedule. I want them to give me more of the same but slightly different. It's not that I'm looking for razzamatazz and a completely different content strategy. Like I'm looking for what I like more of it.

B (96:18)

Yeah, I get that it's a tough balance because we've talked about this, but I think people like the simplest episodes. And then sometimes I'm like, well, shouldn't we be pushing to make it different or fancy or. But then everyone's like, I love, you know, the three things or you're just chatting and. And so I think that could be confusing sometimes for sure.

A (96:37)

How have you felt about the podcast over the last year?

B (96:39)

I mean, I think similar. I think, like, I said that question of, like, is the groove good? Is what people want, or is it boring? And, I mean, I've definitely thought about, like, this idea of, like, doing it until the wheels fall off. Like, I don't know if that's something that feels good. So sometimes I think about that, like, long term, which is kind of a scary and complicated series of questions, because then it's like, well, then at what point? I don't know, you know that what I'm saying, like, the balance of, like, at what point is it getting better or is it, like, good to just be consistent? And where's that balance? And so I think about that a lot, being in the fourth year of doing this. But, yeah, I've loved the book club episodes. I do think you. You've. Admittedly, the schedule has worked out that Becca has had, like, the past four book club episode outlines, but they've been. They've been very good.

A (97:31)

What do you want for the next year of the podcast? Any dream guests? Any goals?

B (97:35)

Barbara Kingsolver.

A (97:36)

I love this.

B (97:37)

You just want to stare upon her face.

A (97:39)

Do you ever DM her? Does she respond?

B (97:41)

I have never. I just comment on her beautiful Instagram posts. There's something about how she lives her life that I just find. Chef's Kiss.

A (97:49)

She has a book coming out this fall, right?

B (97:51)

Yes. Yeah, I think we could do this. Musician or something. Yeah, I would love that. And she has such a nice voice. I listened to an interview with her recently and just so nice.

A (98:01)

Okay, I think we could do this.

B (98:03)

Who do you want?

A (98:05)

I would love to have.

B (98:06)

Who do you want?

A (98:07)

Who do I want? I would love to have Colleen Hoover on for the Verity movie release. This is not for lack of trying. We've tried many times over the years, and schedules have never worked. She's been writing. She's been working on a movie. I also was recently listening to an interview with her on Jenna Bush Hager's podcast, and it sounds like she doesn't really like doing press or interviews. It makes her nervous. So it hasn't lined up for a variety of reasons, but I would love to talk to her. I think her trajectory and career has been fascinating, and I find her to be someone who's quite open and honest.

B (98:45)

She's both very open and kind of mysterious at the same time. You know, Like, I. There's still questions I have. Admittedly, I haven't done a ton of research, but.

A (98:54)

Well, maybe we'll get a chance to ask them. Also, I would like, no promises, but I would like to explore maybe something in the in person event arena. Not in an arena, to be clear.

B (99:09)

Battle paper, arena tour.

A (99:11)

It's like an arena tour and it's just like half of one section filled.

B (99:17)

Oh, my gosh.

A (99:18)

Okay. Should we get into some 2026 obsessions and books?

B (99:23)

Yeah. Yes, we should. What are you obsessed with?

A (99:31)

What are you obsessed with, Olivia?

B (99:33)

Okay, fine. Twist my arm. I am obsessed with the project Hail Mary movie.

A (99:38)

This feels very full circle because in your first episode, we were doing it for book club that month as part of the getting to know you content, and I wrote down this specific quote. You said it was the book that brought me the most joy in this world.

B (99:52)

Yes. Yes, I smiled at that. Because when I saw the movie a few days ago, first of all, the feeling of being in a theater with people who are excited, like, really excited to see something is so rare these days. And everyone was so excited. And I was excited. And I will say I thought it started a tad slow, but I just wasn't in it right away. Maybe I was a little nervous or something, but once it really started going with Rocky and stuff, I was just beaming. Like, the smile I had on my face for so much of that movie was followed, of course, by, like, I. Extreme tears. I was crying so much.

A (100:32)

Oh, I did not cry. I cried in the book for sure, but I didn't cry. No.

B (100:36)

Oh, my gosh. When. When they're doing the little dance thing and he's saying goodbye. Oh, my God. I. I wept. I wept, but I laughed so much.

A (100:47)

I thought it was so funnier than I remember the book being.

B (100:50)

Yes. So funny. My brother was like, oh, is it like interstellar? We were talking about it and I was like, no, because it's funny. I mean, there is action, but I just really loved it. I don't think it was as good as the book, but.

A (101:03)

Oh, I thought it was the best possible adaptation. I thought it was an excellent movie. It was long. It was 2 hours and 35 minutes. But at no point was I, like, looking at my phone to be like, when is this over? It was very captivating. Had a great, like, pacing to it. I felt like. And I. I thought Ryan Gosling's performance, while I do think that the character was, like, kind of just Ryan Gosling, like an elevated Ryan Gosling, I would agree with that. His performance, given that he was opposite a rock that doesn't speak English, I thought it was, like, phenomenally resonant.

B (101:42)

Yeah, I was really, really impressed. Even though I liked the book more. I still agree with you. I think it was the best it could have been. I will see it again. I'll see it with my parents. I'll see it with whoever.

A (101:53)

I thought it was great. Somebody reminded me in the BFF group that when we recorded the episode on it, I said, there are only two ways this is going to go. It's either going to be awesome or it's going to be awful. All coming down to how they portrayed Rocky. And I thought it was awesome. I still agree with that.

B (102:12)

Oh, good.

A (102:13)

There was no middle ground.

B (102:14)

They did it. The voices when the Meryl Streep, so funny. And then when he's watching him sleep, there's so many moments that I was just. My face was literally hurting from smiling so much. It's. It's just. It's what we need. It's what we need in these trying times.

A (102:30)

I mean, it's so early in the year, so I think it's too soon to say, but I think this will clean up at next year's Oscars.

B (102:37)

Really?

A (102:38)

Yeah. I think the cinematography of it was really incredible. I think that Ryan Gosling's performance, the direction, like, the special effects, like. Yeah, I could see this doing really well.

B (102:50)

Interesting. Yeah. I'm not sure how it will be received critically. I haven't read any reviews, but it

A (102:56)

has like a 96% on Rotten Tomatoes. It is getting incredible reviews.

B (103:01)

I can't wait to see it again. I can't wait to see it again. Oh, my gosh. And the theater. Everyone was laughing so much. That was such a good feeling, too. The amount of everyone laughing together is just so heartening. Oh, I could go on. There's so many moments.

A (103:16)

I'm so happy. There's nothing scarier than. Did they ruin the adaptation of your favorite book?

B (103:21)

It was great. What do you think was your favorite part?

A (103:24)

What was your favorite part?

B (103:25)

Because this is something I couldn't remember in the book. I loved the hugging.

A (103:29)

Oh, yeah.

B (103:30)

And when he. They would put his little rock head next to the glass, like, it was just.

A (103:35)

It was really cute.

B (103:36)

Sweet. And also a really small moment when they're sitting on the beach at the end and he scoots a little bit closer to Grace.

A (103:43)

I was like. It was really cute.

B (103:45)

Oh, my gosh.

A (103:45)

It was really cute. I want to say my favorite part was when Rocky moved in and he was so overbearing. It was so funny.

B (103:53)

He was like, trash, trash, trash, Dirty, dirty. Yes. I was talking about that to Jake when we got home and we Were laughing so hard. Yes, I loved that too. So funny. Well, what is your obsession?

A (104:04)

My obsession is a song, and I'm curious if you're familiar with it. So it's Godlight by Noah Khan.

B (104:10)

Is it a new single or no?

A (104:13)

So he has a new single called Porchlight. Man loves a light. A light titled song.

B (104:20)

Yes.

A (104:20)

And I listened to Porchlight. I think it came out last week, two weeks ago, and this autoplayed a few songs later. And I was like, oh, I've never heard this before. Is this new? Is this off the new album that's coming out? And it's not. It's from 2021. And it's such a good song. I can't believe that it didn't break out more than it did. I don't think I was really familiar with Noah Khan until Stick Season. And the song is so good. And it's also so interesting because it's him talking about fame, Godlight being like, the type of spotlight that they use on a stage where the only thing you can see is the performer. And I was like, if you're already having complex feelings about fame in 2021, I'm so curious how the last few years have hit you of mega fame. Did you see he has a documentary coming out on Netflix?

B (105:14)

I did, yeah. I was just about to mention that everyone gets a documentary these days. I mean, I love him, so I'm glad.

A (105:19)

I love a music documentary. Even have an artist that I don't even like. So I feel like in this, like, I've watched the Jonas Brothers one for no clear reason. So this for an artist I like. I'm gonna be so excited to listen to it.

B (105:34)

Yes. I am probably gonna watch it. I kind of wish I was, like, patient enough to have tried to get tickets for his tour, but maybe I'll try on. I just failed.

A (105:42)

So we'll see if we can be on the resale market.

B (105:45)

I don't have the patience, but I'm so glad. I saw him a couple stuff summers ago.

A (105:49)

Did you read anything since we spoke 48 hours ago?

B (105:53)

I have not. Have you?

A (105:55)

I've started something, but I didn't finish it. Next week we'll have a lot of recs because we have a lot of downtime. Yes.

B (106:00)

We'll be back.

A (106:01)

Well, tell us about our book club pick.

B (106:03)

Yes. Our April book club pick is Good People by Patmina Sabit. I don't want to give too much about this away, but this is a mystery about an Afghan American family. There is a tragedy that occurs and the entire story is told through dozens of of outside perspectives. So that means that each perspective has its own chapter. Sometimes these are a sentence, sometimes these are a paragraph, a page, rarely more than that and it just moves. It is a page turner of the highest degree and there's a lot to discuss so I'm looking forward to that.

A (106:40)

Well I can't wait to read that. In the meantime, if you would like to reminisce about any bat on paper memories come find us in the Facebook group under BatonPaper Podcast. We're on Instagram @BatonPaper Podcast. We have our BFF group under Baton Paper podcast. I am on Instagram at Becca M. Freeman my newsletter is@beccafreeman.substack.com and I have a new book coming out this October called Back where we started and I would love it if you pre ordered

B (107:06)

it and I am all the places at Olivia mentor and olivia mentor.com See you next week.

A (107:12)

Bye bye.