The Burning Side Book Club

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bad On Paper

Episode: The Burning Side Book Club
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Date: July 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the July listener book club pick, The Burning Side by Sarah Damoff. Hosts Becca and Olivia candidly discuss their reactions to this multi-POV family drama, its themes of trauma and resilience, and the powerful resonance it holds with many readers. Alongside book talk, the hosts share personal highs and lows and lightly banter about their own lives before a thorough, nuanced breakdown of the book. Listeners can expect a thoughtful, honest conversation about how reading tastes differ—and why this novel has sparked such passion among its fans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Highs and Lows

• Community & Book Events:

  • Becca is excited about the upcoming live book club event in Chicago and her annual lobster roll competition in Maine. She discusses experimenting with unique recipes and the anxieties of culinary improvisation.
    • “I have not tested my lobster roll recipe yet... I’m really obsessed with a lobster roll with a fruit component, like either a peach or a pineapple kind of salsa with it if it’s cold.” (01:26)

• Olivia's Positive Encounters:

  • Olivia recounts a feel-good moment connecting with a podcast listener at the Starbucks drive-through (shout-out to Lydia!), making her day brighter.
    • “It was a Bat on Paper listener in the drive through and it was really lovely. And she said she bought my book.” (04:00)
  • She also describes a “perfect movie weekend,” highlighting both a packed IMAX viewing of The Odyssey and an unexpectedly fun experience watching Jason Statham’s The Meg:
    • “It was so bad, in the best way possible, completely entertaining and incredibly stupid.” (06:34)

• Lows:

  • Becca shares a stressful story about locking herself out of her apartment and being let back in by building maintenance—prompting (minor) security paranoia and a renewed appreciation for lockboxes.
    • “It didn’t make me feel super comfortable that he could get in my house with no key, but it was better than paying a locksmith.” (08:53)
  • Olivia: “No low this week. I’m just riding the high of the Meg and The Odyssey.” (09:43)

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2. Book Club Discussion: The Burning Side

Introduction and Listener Selection

• The book was chosen through a lively Facebook poll, narrowly edging out competitors and demonstrating the power of word-of-mouth among passionate readers.
  • “This book won by a single vote over Yesteryear, which I would have bet all of my money was going to win.” (13:14)
• The Burning Side is framed as a multi-POV family drama centering on Leo and April, a couple in crisis, forced to move in with extended family after a house fire. Each character harbors secrets and struggles.

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3. Themes & Writing Style

• Addictive, Trauma-Driven Storytelling:
  • Olivia and Becca both liken the book’s appeal and emotional impact to Colleen Hoover—powerful, propulsive, trauma-rich fiction with a devoted fanbase.
    • “This book gave me more literary Colleen Hoover...it does have a sort of addictive quality…instead of romance or sex, it’s like trauma.” (15:08, Olivia)
  • Both note author Sarah Damoff and Colleen Hoover share backgrounds as social workers and are from Texas, potentially informing both the subject matter and the emotional sensibility.
• Book’s Emotional Weight:
  • Becca admits: “‘If I had been reading this on my own...I absolutely would have DNF’d it the minute the Alzheimer’s diagnosis came into play. Because it just felt like that type of trauma-heavy plot that is not about beating the odds, it’s about the pile on.’” (18:05)
  • Olivia: “It is very readable, despite how heavy it is...you move through it.” (18:45)
• Genre Blending & Audience:
  • The hosts struggle to pigeonhole the genre, calling it “family drama,” “book club fiction,” or even a new, Frida McFadden-style category: “something very specific and commercial, but all its own.” (19:57-20:45)
• Writing Style:
  • Becca points out the interior, summary-heavy narration, with little dialogue—especially in the first half—which can create emotional distance from the characters.
    • “There’s very little dialogue... It is very much summarized action...not a lot of dialogue.” (21:30)

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4. Character and Plot Analysis

• Character Depth and Relatability:
  • Both hosts agree the book is marketed as character-driven—yet feel the characters are often defined more by the traumas happening to them than by distinctive personalities or choices.
    • Olivia: “To me, it felt a lot more about the things happening to the characters than the characters themselves.” (23:09)
    • “...I didn’t feel like I knew either April or Leo all that well. I actually felt like I knew Deb the best.” (23:28, Becca)
  • Discussion of Deb, the matriarch, highlights generational differences in family obligation and satisfaction:
    • “They weren’t Sheryl Sandberg-pilled...there’s like a quiet disappointment in it, but not the Amy Dunn Gone Girl—like I’m going to burn it all down.” (24:45, Becca)
  • The hosts express a desire for even more dimensionality—anger, selfishness, or “darkness” in Deb.
• Events vs. Internal Life:
  • Olivia critiques the book’s lack of narrative subtlety: “No subtlety in anything. It was just like, boom, boom, boom, bad thing, bad thing...but that is kind of how life is sometimes.” (20:45)
• Cheating as a Plot Device:
  • April’s infidelity is discussed; the hosts agree it’s portrayed without high emotional stakes, making it less divisive for readers. The couple’s reconciliation is predicted and perceived as somewhat unearned due to minimal dialogue.
    • “I found the ending of them getting back together fairly unsatisfying because...we didn’t get to hear very much of a conversation before they were just like having sex.” (32:12, Becca)
• Leo and Family Trauma:
  • The subplot of Leo reconnecting with his father is surprising and highlights intergenerational trauma.
    • “Both seeing him get to deal with some of that trauma in real time reconnecting with his father...really deepened his character.” (35:55, Becca)
• Social Commentary:
  • Hosts praise moments examining the couple’s differing responses to at-risk students, drawing from their backgrounds—a dynamic they wished had been more central.
    • “I really actually liked the tension between Leo and April...about how their different backgrounds informed how they would deal with a student in a dangerous situation...” (36:31, Olivia)
• Fire as Metaphor:
  • The literal house fire serves only to drive everyone under one roof, with recurring fiery imagery becoming more symbolic than plot-driving as the book progresses.
    • “The fire metaphor and imagery continues essentially nonstop...but, like, plot-wise, by day two, they’re in their parents’ house, everyone’s laughing...we’ve totally forgotten that the house is gone.” (38:53, Olivia)

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5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the emotional intensity:
  • “It felt like one long season of Parenthood to me.” (17:27, Olivia)
• On reader subjectivity:
  • “...something that doesn’t necessarily work for me, works incredibly for other people. And I think that’s something fascinating about the reading universe.” (18:50, Becca).
• On the ending’s twist:
  • Olivia’s reaction to the flash-forward reveal:
    • “I nearly threw my book across the room, Becca...that’s how I felt. I was like, come on. I was like, no, no, no, no.” (40:19)
  • Becca found it unsurprising and logical:
    • “I felt like it was full circle. I felt like it made sense for the book.” (40:59)

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6. Reflections on Audience and Subjectivity

• Both hosts acknowledge not being the book’s target demographic—neither is a mother nor married. However, they recognize why the book resonates powerfully with readers undergoing familial or relational hardships.
  • “I could see some of April’s storyline about feeling lost in early motherhood...being very relatable based on things I’ve heard from friends or just cultural narratives.” (26:37, Becca)
• Olivia is especially moved after reading a personal essay by the author that contextualizes the trauma and themes of survival and found family.
  • “Even though for me, I talk about how it was just too many bad things...I just realized that, like, oh, this is really what life is just like sometimes. And I can see that for some people, this book would just be like, you know, a balm for those...days that really feel like that.” (43:51, Olivia)

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7. Final Thoughts & Looking Forward

• Both appreciate the growth that comes from reading outside of their comfort zone, thanks to listener picks.
  • “It clearly pushed us outside of our reader comfort zones of something we wouldn’t have normally read.” (45:34, Becca)
• Next month’s pick is The Book Witch by Meg Shafer—a heartwarming, magical novel praised as “a love letter to books and readers and bookish culture.”
  • “There’s something about a Meg Shafer book that has a kind of heartwarming childhood fairy tale quality to it.” (50:12, Becca)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Personal Highs & Lows:
  • 01:02–09:43
• Introduction of The Burning Side Book Club Pick:
  • 12:29–15:03
• Discussion of Book’s Tone, Themes, and Genre:
  • 15:03–21:08
• Character Analysis and Family Dynamics:
  • 23:08–25:25
• Discussion on Audience and Structure:
  • 26:37–29:17
• Cheating, Relationship Nuance:
  • 30:53–33:22
• House Fire as Inciting Incident and Use of Metaphor:
  • 38:17–39:31
• Ending & Twist Reaction:
  • 39:42–42:24
• Author’s Personal Context:
  • 42:24–43:51
• Final Reflections & Next Month’s Book:
  • 45:34–51:04

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Notable Quotes

• On Trauma Plot:
  • “...instead of romance or sex, it’s like trauma.” (15:25, Olivia)
• On Readability:
  • “It is very readable, despite how heavy it is. You move through it.” (18:45, Olivia)
• On Character Construction:
  • “To me, it felt a lot more about the things happening to the characters than the characters themselves.” (23:09, Olivia)
• On Word of Mouth & Subjectivity:
  • “...something that doesn’t necessarily work for me, works incredibly for other people.” (18:50, Becca)
• On the Ending Twist:
  • “I nearly threw my book across the room, Becca.” (40:19, Olivia)
  • “I felt like it was full circle. I felt like it made sense for the book.” (40:59, Becca)

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Episode Tone and Style

Becca and Olivia keep the conversation friendly, candid, and thoughtful, never shying from expressing differences in taste while always respecting the passion of the book’s fans. Their banter is warm and relatable, offering both literary insight and glimpses into their personal lives, making the summary equally engaging for readers and non-readers of the book alike.

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Next up:
The Book Witch by Meg Shafer (August Book Club Pick) – A magical, heartwarming read for all book lovers.

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For more discussion, join the Bad On Paper Podcast community on Facebook and Instagram, or visit the show’s website for club updates and bonus content.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Badon Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[B]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[A]

And today is our July book club pick. We read the Burning side by Sarah Damoff. It was a listener pick and today we're going to talk about it.

[B]

Yeah, it's always extra exciting in July because we don't have any control over it. You were the ones who picked, so let's see what we thought of it. But first, this episode is sponsored by Sol de Janeiro, the Brazilian inspired self care brand we're partnering with for our Summer of Soul. We've told you all about our bonus beach read book club episodes in person events and giveaways with them. And today we'll tell you more about our favorite products later in the episode.

[A]

Well, let's get into some highs and lows. Let's tell me your high.

[B]

My high is anticipatory. We are headed to Chicago this week for our first live book club for our Summer of Soul partnership. And I'm really excited to just see some of our community in person. I always get so energized when I get to meet listeners and, you know, just the reminder that there's other people on the other side of this zoom recording where it's just you and me.

[A]

So, yes, I can't wait.

[B]

I'm very excited for that. And then I'm going, right, from Chicago to. Well, I guess not, right. I'm going to Boston and then driving up to Maine for the lobster roll off. So I'm very excited for that. It's always one of my favorite weekends of the year. I do feel slightly unprepared. I have not tested my lobster roll recipe yet. I'm not sure how it's going to be. Tell me if you think this is weird. I'm really obsessed with a lobster roll with a fruit component, like either a peach or a pineapple kind of salsa

[A]

with it if it's cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I could see it.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm going to test them tonight. I'm hosting mah jong tonight and I'm going to test them on my mahjong gals. And if they're bad, then I'm not sure what I'm going to do.

[A]

I was going to say, are you going into this completely untested? Are you just gonna.

[B]

I'm testing it tonight.

[A]

You're testing it tonight?

[B]

I don't really have time to. If it's bad, then I guess I'll just know that it's bad and try something else on the fly because I don't think I have time to test again.

[A]

Well, even if it's imperfect, you can still then iterate on it.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

I doubt it's gonna be like this is an edible at the mahjong event.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, my friend Peter tested his a couple weeks ago. It was inedible. He tried a deconstructed lobster thermidor and apparently it was not good.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

It's like with the sherry and the cream and the cheese.

[A]

Yep. I'm out. Okay. Immediately. Okay. The cheese. Cheese and lobster should not go together under any circumstances. It's just my body rules.

[B]

Lobster Mac and cheese is delicious, so I don't think that's a blanket rule. But in the sandwich.

[A]

Oh, but who am I? I'm not an expert. You guys are the lobster monarchy, so.

[B]

Well, we'll see. I will have so much to report on next week. Hopefully it's another win.

[A]

I wish you luck. It sounds like you have a lot of fun summery days ahead, which is awesome.

[B]

I do. What about you? What is your high?

[A]

I have two highs. I added one on. I just. I just experienced one. Okay, I'll start with the little one, which is that I can't ever say that phrase anymore, by the way, because I just immediately think book. Book. But I'll start with the little high, which is that although it feels quite big, I was driving through the Starbucks drive through today. I was running some errands and I got to the window and the person working in the window said, olivia. And I said, hello. Yes. And they were like, I listened to your podcast. Oh. And so it was a bat on paper listener in the, in the drive through and it was really lovely. And she said that she bought my book.

[B]

The listeners are everywhere.

[A]

I know. It was just. Her name is Lydia. So shout out to Lydia. It's a really beautiful day here today and I was already in a good mood and it was just a really nice little moment. So yeah, I really appreciated that.

[B]

Shout out to Lydia.

[A]

Yes. And then my other high is that I had a really good movie weekend. And yes, I. I did see the Odyssey in IMAX and it was incredible. Everything a movie going experience should be. Packed theater to the point where I had to stand up six times during previews to let people come in.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It was like I was at a sold out concert. It was packed in there.

[B]

Did you see the news story that it's so in demand. The IMAX 70 millimeter showings are so in demand that they're adding Overnight ones?

[A]

No. Oh, my gosh. I'm not surprised. It was really great. And also I've been seeing the 4x versions where your seat moves. Oh. Which I would go to, apparently. If you can go.

[B]

Apparently in New York City, you can't get tickets to the IMAX 70 millimeter ones. And so I saw somebody over the weekend in my feed who went at 6 in the morning.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Isn't that crazy?

[A]

That is the most loud way to start your day. I actually kind of felt during it like, I need to bring those baby headphones at concerts. It was so, so loud. It was overwhelming. Apparently, this is a hallmark of Christopher Nolan Phelps. I did not know that you've brought

[B]

me in that I want to see it. And now you've. You've deterred me. Again with the loudness.

[A]

It's very loud. There is a scary part, but honestly, I think it's worth it because it is so escapist. Like, you just feel like you're on this adventure journey and you're not thinking about real life at all. Even though there are some heavy themes. It's just so transportive in so many ways.

[B]

What was that Harry Styles quote from the Don't Worry Darling press tour where he said, it just feels like a movie?

[A]

That's correct.

[B]

It does.

[A]

It does feel like a movie. It was something. But I actually do want to mention a different movie experience in my high, which is that Saturday night it was raining outside. I just wanted to have a chill night in. Jake and I kept playing things on the tv. We were like, no, not this. And then I don't know what came over my body. But on HBO Max, I was like, the Meg. The. The Meg, starring Jason Statham is what I'm going to play right now, which is an action movie in which they discover that a giant Megalodon lives at the bottom of the ocean. And my God, if I didn't have the best movie experience other than the Odyssey that I've had in a long time, it was so bad, in the best way possible, completely entertaining and incredibly stupid. And I will be watching the second Meg. Meg 2. Wow.

[B]

Nothing about you gives Jason Statham fan, so I'm kind of delighted by unexpected crossover.

[A]

Thank you. Thank. First of all, thank you for that. I don't know. It really just was the perfect balance of stupid and mindless and engaging in a strange sort of way. Nothing about it made sense. Like, the whole time you're like, how would that be possible? No, that wouldn't be possible. But you're still hooked.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

Anyway, it was a great movie weekend, so that was my high. What is your low?

[B]

My low is at something I've been dreading happened other than my dentist giving me a talking to about seltzer consumption. Ever since I moved into my new apartment, I have been on edge about locking myself out. Because in my old apartment we had a lockbox downstairs outside. So even if I locked myself out, it was not a big deal. There's nowhere in my new apartment to put a lockbox, so I haven't had one. And every time I leave, I have this inner monologue of like, careful, careful, don't lock yourself out. And on Saturday it was raining, as you said, and I was going to get my hair dyed and I was so intent on remembering to bring an umbrella that I forgot my keys. And I realized it the second the door closed.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And then I was squatting.

[A]

Did you go to the appointment?

[B]

Yeah, I was squatting. I was going through my purse. I was trying to find it. I realized I had no keys and I was like, I don't know what skipping the appointment does. So I went and I called the building maintenance while I was in the car going there. And I was like, is there a master key? Do you have an extra key? They don't. But when I got home, one of the maintenance guys came and he jimmied the lock with what I can only describe as like a sheet of metal. I've never seen it before.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It didn't make me feel super comfortable that he could get in my house with no key.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But it was better than paying a locksmith. So he got me in and now I ordered a lockbox that goes around the doorknob. I'm curious how annoying that will be on a day to day basis if it will make it hard to turn the knob. So we'll see.

[A]

Well, I hope that solution works. I think I did that once a long time ago. But not great.

[B]

Not great. I'm usually really responsible about keys, but

[A]

it was bound to happens are expensive though. So I'm. I'm glad you were able to, albeit, yes, a little unsettling that somehow you can just get a sheet of metal to open the door. But you know you're in, I'm in. So there's that.

[B]

I'm in. What about you? What's your low?

[A]

No low for me this week.

[B]

All right then.

[A]

I'm just riding the high of the Meg and the Odyssey. Anyway, let's take an ad break and then we will talk about this book, This episode is sponsored by Sol de Janeiro. And by the way, there is a discount code at the end of this ad, so be sure to stay tuned. As I mentioned before, I frequently drive past the thrift store on the way home from the gym and I probably more often than I should stop. And I really don't want to smell like the gym in the thrift store. So I keep my favorite Sol de Janeiro perfume mist in the glove compartment of my car. I spray myself with a healthy amount and then I go inside and I look and last week I did this and I was browsing through one of the new racks which is the best at the thrift store when the person who works there complimented me on how good I smelled. And just so you know, I was soaked in sweat. It was not great. But this person said wow, I love your perfume and I just felt on top of the world. And yes of course I was wearing my Sol de Janeiro perfume mist. And I love so many of these scents. I have quite a few sprinkled around my home and car. But their Shirosa 62 is one of the best and it has these notes of pistachio and vanilla and salted caramel. And basically if you love their famous Boom Boom Cream, you will love the Shirosa 62 perfume mist too.

[B]

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[A]

I love this product so much. I have the version with the pump which I especially love, but I also love the classic jar it comes in as well. There are so many great parts of this partnership, but one of the best is that we honestly could not love the Sol de Janeiro products more. And just so you know, you can go to solde janeiro.com discount BOP10 and a 10 discount will be auto added to your first purchase on most of their best selling items like our favorite Brazilian Boom Boom cream and the Shirosa 62 perfume mist. That's 10% off at Sol de Janeiro.com discount/bop10. We are so excited for you to try all of their bestsellers if you haven't already. So you too can smell good at thrift store, at the gym, at home and anywhere in between.

[B]

All right. Olivia, let's get into this book. Would you like to read us a little plot summary?

[A]

I sure can. Leo Torres has just told his wife April that he wants a divorce when their house burns down in the middle of the night, forcing the couple and their two young children to move in with April's parents. Through a multi POV narrative, we discover that each person in this house has their own secrets and hardships, including, of course, Leo and April.

[B]

This was our listener pick month, and the way that that works is we do a Facebook poll. People nominate the books that they would like to hear us talk about, and listeners vote. And I think maybe around 900 listeners voted, which is wild. Very cool.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah. And I was so surprised by the outcome of this poll. There were 27 books that got nominated. This book got 22% of the vote. I was watching this vote like it was a very prolonged Kentucky Derby horse race. This book won by a single vote over yesteryear, which I would have bet all of my money was going to win. So thank God there's nowhere for me to place that bet. And in case you're wondering, the third place at 13% of the vote was Whistler by Ann Patchett. Were you surprised? Did this come out of nowhere for you, too?

[A]

I had been seeing a little bit of buzz about this book because I think her first book was such a. Like, it has such a dedicated fan base. It was such a word of mouth hit that I kind of started to see the same thing happening to this one. And her first book just came out last year, so I think she was, like, giving the people who love the bright years something new. And so it didn't shock me totally, but I did definitely think that yesteryear was going to be the book, to the point where I put off reading it because I was like, I'm going to read it for this listener, for the club. Yes and no. They surprised us. And actually, when I was doing this outline, I went back to the poll to just see some of these stats. And the poll is still open technically, which may have been our mistake, I don't know. But I don't think I know how to close it ahead by one vote.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So that's how close it was. It was really going back and forth, but this is the one that came out on top, I think. I mean, one thing I've learned, doing a little bit of research on this book, the people that love it, love it. I mean, people are passionate about this book, and I think Sarah Damoff in general and The Bright Years as well.

[B]

Can I just plant a seed of a thought here?

[A]

You can.

[B]

This book gave me more literary. Colleen Hoover. So hearing you say that the people who love it, love it is not surprising because I feel like she also has such a dedicated fan base. Does that strike any chords for you, or am I all alone here on this. On this branch?

[A]

I can see how you got there. I really can. I have so many thoughts about this book. I really do. I was just telling Becca, like, I'm bursting with thoughts about this book. I think one thing that to go on what you just said is it does have a sort of addictive quality to it that I think Colleen Hoover's books have. It's like, instead of romance or sex, it's like trauma.

[B]

Well, no, but Colleen Hoover books also have a lot of trauma in them. And Colleen Hoover shares a background, I believe, with the author here in that they're both former social workers, and so they're blending a lot of their former professional lives into their books.

[A]

That. Wow. And am I correct in thinking they're both from Texas?

[B]

They are both from Texas.

[A]

Interesting. Okay, well, tell me, did you read the Bright Years, which is her first book?

[B]

I didn't. I saw so many good things about it, and it's the same way I felt about the Names by Florence Knapp, which also came out around the same time last year, where I had no doubt that it was good, but it just felt too depressing for what I was up for. Because that book is about, like, generational inheritance of addiction, isn't it?

[A]

There's a lot about alcoholism, and I think perhaps the foster care system. Okay.

[B]

Did you read it?

[A]

It sounds like, no, I haven't read it. I started it when I think I got an arc of it and I started it. I had heard a lot of good things similarly, and I got maybe two chapters in and I found the writing, it just leaned a little cheesy for me. It felt a little. Cheesy is probably too harsh of a word. It felt a little melodramatic right from the go.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But having said that, I was really excited to read this book because I thought, having seen the absolute word of mouth success of the Bright Years, it's being translated into so many languages now. It's been such a success. I was like, I probably just missed something. I wasn't in the right head space. It just. Whatever. It wasn't the right moment for me. But I'm gonna read the Burning side and I'm gonna love it and stand corrected.

[B]

Is that what happened?

[A]

That is not what happened for me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I say this, knowing I am the exception here, that this book is beloved and has tens of thousands of five star reviews. This was very much not for me. It's pitched as Parenthood and this is Us, which I can see that there are shows for me. And so I think the book is completely successful in what it wanted to do. But it may be just I wasn't the audience for it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I actually wrote in this outline. It felt like one long season of parenthood to me. And then I realized it was actually pitch. Parenthood was a comp. So I was like, wow, they did it. Tell me what this reading experience was like for you. Did this book work for you? Did you like it?

[B]

I enjoyed it. However, if I had been reading this on my own, outside of the context of this book club, I absolutely would have DNF'd it the minute the Alzheimer's diagnosis came into play. Because it just felt like that type of trauma, heavy plot that is not about beating the odds, it's about the pile on. And I'm just. That isn't the type of reading experience I'm equipped for right now. Like, I could see why other people would like it, but it felt too much for me. That said, I did enjoy reading it. In spite of that.

[A]

It is very readable, very readable, despite how heavy it is. Like you move through it.

[B]

It was also a good reminder of how subjective reading is of, you know, something that doesn't necessarily work for me, works incredibly for other people. And I think that's something fascinating about the reading universe.

[A]

Yes, that's an idea I kept coming back to as well. I mean, this book has more than 40,000 reviews on Goodreads and 4.3 stars, which is, wow, remarkably high. And I think that's great that so many people loved it. But what would you describe this genre as? To me, I couldn't. It was hard for me to think of a comp for it other than maybe Parenthood or this is Us.

[B]

I guess I'd call it a family novel, like a family drama. Not a, you know, not a multi generational, but like a family drama. It feels like book club fiction is what it feels like, honestly. Like, it feels like there's a lot to talk about about April and Leo's marriage. If you sided with one versus the other, what you would have done in Deb's shoes about, you know, going into assisted living when she was still so young. Like, it does feel really ripe for discussions of what you would do in the character's shoes. So maybe I would just call it book club fiction.

[A]

You are right. It's just there's something about it that felt, I don't know, very specific to me and like a new genre in a way. But I don't know how to. I don't know how to put it into words, which is probably not very helpful as someone who's co hosting a podcast. You know how Frida McFadden is kind of her own thing. Yep, it kind of feels like that, except obviously it's more literary. It's a completely different genre. It's more emotional. You know what I mean? Like, it's. It's something very specific and commercial, but all its own, that is clearly, you know, people are voracious for, and they want it just one after the other, like, so badly. Something that I kept thinking about while reading this book, and you'll have to tell me if you feel this way too, is that there's, like, no subtlety in anything. It was just like, boom, boom, boom, Bad thing, bad thing, bad thing, bad thing. But then I thought, like, that is kind of how life is sometimes. You know, it is really like, this is even referenced in the book, you know, when it rains, it pours. It's not just the one thing, it's all the things. And life is certainly not subtle very often. And so maybe that's the point. But it felt like a lot, you know, just a lot.

[B]

It's a trauma plot. This isn't a good comp for it. But, you know, another book that I feel like is the same, when it rains, it pours. Just one bad thing after another is A Little Life by Hanya Yanagihara, a book that I loved but just sobbed my way through.

[A]

Did you cry in this?

[B]

I didn't. I didn't.

[A]

Neither did I. But it was sad.

[B]

It was sad. Can I tell you two things that I think maybe kept me a little bit at a distance from this book about the writing? So one thing I noticed is that there's very little dialogue, especially in the first half of the book. It is very much summarized action of what is happening, and I think that that's purposeful because April and Leo are avoiding talking to each other about anything. And then Deb, the mother character, is processing her feelings about Billy's diagnosis before she's told anyone else in the family. So it's very interior, and there's not a lot of dialogue. And the other thing about it is it's very like, I don't know if domestic is the right word, but it's very in the moment of domestic scenes. There were so many scenes in Deb's kitchen having meals together, and they're not talking, and it's, I got up and picked up a fork or, you know, like, things like that. And I understand what she was trying to do, but it almost kept me a little bit at a distance from the story and from the characters.

[A]

I feel like I hadn't thought of that. But you're right. I mean, when there is so much happening and so much backstory and so many POVs and so many characters, I think you really have to be very skilled at moving things along and not getting lost in too much dialogue or too much, you know, description of setting. And so maybe it's just necessary. And it's probably also why I think the pace works so well across the board, which seems to be very clear.

[B]

Did you understand why this was our listener pick, or did you feel perplexed?

[A]

Both.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Kind of both. I think someone said, who nominated it, that it was the best character driven novel they'd ever read. And I think in a way that's correct, it is character driven. But to me, it felt a lot more about the things happening to the characters than the characters themselves.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't feel like I knew either April or Leo all that well. I actually felt like I knew Deb the best. In some ways, I liked Deb.

[A]

I had a lot of fondness towards Deb myself. But even that character I take a little bit of issue with because I think, am I wrong that her entire personhood was centered around her children and Billi.

[B]

I think that was the point. I know, but she gives this speech at one point about being resentful of all of the meals that she has to cook. And it seems like she has oriented her life by choice or by circumstance around her family life.

[A]

That's true. But I think what I was missing is, like, where's the dark? Not the darkness. There's so much darkness, in a way, in this book. But I was like, where's the anger? Where's the selfishness? Like, where's. If I'm Deb, I'm, like, full of rage in some ways that this is happening to me. And we didn't get to go to Paris, and there are these little flashes of it, but I just felt like it was kind of like this perfect saint character, you know, where I was like, deb, get angry, even though maybe I don't. She has a lot of reason to be angry at like the world, the circumstances, fate, you know.

[B]

I guess so. But I do feel like. And I'm obviously not privy to their inner monologues, but I do feel like I know many people like friends, mothers I'm thinking of who were stay at home moms and have oriented their entire lives around family. And like do they have regrets? Maybe. But they don't have an entitlement the way that I feel like millennials or Gen Z would where like having it like they weren't Sheryl Sandberg pilled of like having it all, you know, they weren't taught to lean in. Like this was what they expected. And so there's like a quiet disappointment in it. But not. Not the Amy Dunne gone girl. Like I'm going to burn it all down.

[A]

Well, I. To be clear, I'm not expecting Deb to go Amy Dunn. I think I just wanted a little more complexity to this very lovely character who I felt so much for in some ways. But I also, I feel like there's more below the surface that maybe we just can't get to because there are so many characters and point of views on the page and timelines. But I want to go back to what you asked me. Do you understand why it was a listener pick?

[B]

Sort of. I think that the listener ally who nominated this gave such a great pitch for it in the comments. And I think that that is such proof of word of mouth marketing being successful in spreading the word about books.

[A]

That's true. And also she is not alone. Like if you go on Goodreads and look at these five star reviews, they are very similar people. Just in love with this book and in love with these characters in a way. Like you said, that made me so, I don't know, grateful and curious for like everyone having different reading tastes. It's just so interesting that something can like completely blow someone away that to another person is.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I mean, here's the other thing is that I am not this book's target audience being unmarried and not being a mother. But I could see some of April's storyline about feeling lost in early motherhood and feeling like your partner has maybe not pulled their weight or has backed away from you in some ways. Like I could see that being very relatable based on things I've heard from friends or just cultural narratives, et cetera. And so in that way, you know, like, maybe this book was not written for me.

[A]

Yeah. And I think same in a way, like I did find the commentary on marriage and long relationships interesting and poignant. But I think the problem is that when you have 10, 15, 20 bad things happening, it's really hard to go really deep on any one of them. And I think, again, it's totally true to life that a million bad things are happening at once and there's a story to be told there. But I almost think for me, it would have been better if it was just, let's pick one and just go real deep.

[B]

Okay, so if you're picking one, was there a character's POV that you were most compelled by, or was there a storyline or a plot point that you were most compelled by that you would have wanted to go all in on?

[A]

You know, I found the Alzheimer scenes the most moving and the most emotionally resonant. And I thought a lot of the stuff about caretaking was really wonderful. And maybe that's what I want. Like, I want the story about Deb as a caretaker and, like, not her, you know, gone girl version, but, like, the dark side of that. Because everyone has days where they're like, how did I get in this life? Even if you love it completely and you're so grateful for it, like, you know, I want to know about those days.

[B]

You want We All Want Impossible Things by Kathryn Newman.

[A]

No, I don't. Well, I want to say one thing about the Alzheimer's. Well, I always want. We all want impossible things. We know this. But the Alzheimer's plot, I was like, okay, I get it. It's adding a lot. I think it's really moving. The scene where she finds Billy in the apartment and he's by himself. It was really tough and moving. The twist at the end with April and the Alzheimer's, which we will get to. I nearly threw my book across the room. Becca. We'll get to it more. But anyway, I think that's the part that worked best for me. Is there one amidst all of that that you really felt worked or you would have liked to see more of or less of? I don't know.

[B]

So the multi POV really worked for me. I found myself most compelled by Deb's point of view. However, I don't necessarily know that it could have supported a whole book, nor would I have wanted to necessarily read that book. So I appreciated that it was sprinkled in with April and Leo's story. And I had a really interesting journey with April and Leo because I really flip flopped on how I felt about them and their story. At first, I. I really did not like April. I felt like we were given to understand pretty early that Leo had gone through these life hardships, and April was kind of just set up as this privileged white girl who didn't have much to complain about. And as we went. And also, they allude very early on that she cheated on him. And so I didn't have much sympathy for her. And as we learned more and we got the scenes of him backing away, I was irate on her behalf of kind of. I understood how his trauma led him to that behavior, but I was, like, ready to grab my pitchfork for her. So I thought that was really interesting, that I didn't feel like I was on one side or the other with them. And I kind of ebbed and flowed through the book because I think sometimes in books you get one partner who's absolutely in the wrong. And I felt like this was much more nuanced, which I appreciated.

[A]

I was curious. Like, we talk a lot about cheating in books and how much it often makes for really divisive stories. Do you think the reason that the cheating in this book has not made it divisive at all is that they're both flawed, is that they end up together in the end?

[B]

I think that, first of all, the emotional investment in the other relationship is very low. She only had this one physical encounter with Kody. It was not as if she loved him. It almost felt like she was. I think Leo says this at some point, that she was doing it out of spite in some way rather than love or attraction or something like that. And so I feel like, because it's not very deep, because it isn't very premeditated, that she was thinking about her desire for this man. I think it was maybe a little bit more palatable. And then I think the other thing is that they end up back together. Because I think that a lot of the same people, to generalize, who have trouble with stories about cheating, would respond well to a story of someone who cheated. And then they found their way back to each other and felt that their relationship was stronger.

[A]

Did you ever feel like they weren't gonna end up together?

[B]

No, but I'm not sure that I felt like they should be together. I felt like when we heard Deb's anecdote fairly early on about how she and Billy got married because she got pregnant and she did not love him, but then she came to love him, I felt fairly sure that that arc was going to be repeated with April and Leo, and that's why we told that story. And so I felt fairly sure that they were going to get back together. I found the ending of them getting back together fairly unsatisfying because I did not feel like they Again, with the lack of dialogue. We did not get to hear very much of a conversation before. They were just like having sex. It felt like we knew a lot of this because of their interior monologues, but we didn't get to see them having this conversation.

[A]

Yeah, I think you're totally right. I mean, there's a lot to be discussed about the ending, including that which I think we can get to. But I think what I love about books is when everyone's in sort of a gray area, which this book does have a lot of in some ways, but it's almost like the most acceptable version of that gray area.

[B]

I can see what you mean.

[A]

Anyway, lots more to discuss, but let's take an ad break and then we'll get to all of that Foreign. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. One of my favorite types of summer days is when you spend all day doing something outside gardening or sitting by a body of water at the farmer's market. And then you come home and you get a giant ice cold glass of water. You take a long shower and then you get into your chilly bedroom and your crispy cool sheets. And this is one reason I love Cozy Earth's bamboo sheet set. They stay cool to the touch while still maintaining that comforting, cozy feeling that we all want when we're in bed.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

What about you Olivia? How did you feel about April and Leo's relationship and the cheating and whether or not they belonged together?

[A]

I felt a lot of the time like they're individually and together. It just felt a little flat for me. I was way more invested In Deb and Billy, I think. And I found them, their relationship more interesting. At one point I thought maybe they weren't gonna end up together. I didn't really care about the cheating, but I also didn't really care about them getting back together. So I don't know.

[B]

You know, what story I did find really interesting in addition to the Alzheimer's plotline was I found the storyline about Leo reconnecting with his father to be really interesting.

[A]

Mm. I was gonna ask you about that. So you thought it was, you know, it was worthwhile to include that extra sort of side character and all of that in the book.

[B]

I really liked it. I think that obviously Leo's behavior was so informed by his childhood trauma about being abandoned. And so both seeing him get to deal with some of that trauma in real time. Reconnecting with his father, I think really deepened his character. And then also it was just really surprising. Like the moment when April sees the photo of Leo's father and then later puts together that it, it was the same man who helped Billy when he was lost. All of the hints were right there, but I didn't see it coming. And I was so delightfully surprised by those reveals.

[A]

Yeah, there were some small things I think that I really did like. And one of those, it's a bit different, but I really actually liked the tension between Leo and April early in their relationship about how they interacted with students and how their different backgrounds informed how they would deal with a student in a dangerous situation from a low income background. And I thought that was so sharp.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

And it was different than what I expected. And when I was reading those scenes, it really gave me like a lot of, I think, hope for the character development. And I just found it really insightful and well done.

[B]

I also felt like the scene where they go back to their house and there's a. A man inside the house. And there are different reactions to that. I thought that that scene was so powerful in kind of the show. Don't tell of how their backgrounds have informed how they approach both other humans, but also that they're both in a career where they are service oriented in terms of helping students who might be from a similar background and kind of some of the judgment that April doesn't realize that she has, but she's bringing to these situations.

[A]

Yes. I'm sitting here thinking, and the wheels are turning. And I'm like, I wish there was just more of that. Like, I wish the inciting incident wasn't the fire, but it was like maybe it was something with a former student that happened and it caused an accident or I don't know. And so then they have to deal with all of these former tensions in this very specific, honed in way and we get deeper and deeper on these parts that I absolutely loved. Of course, that's me. Selfishly, for everyone else it seemed to work well, but I just. The stuff I loved, I was like, I just wanted more of, I think.

[B]

Well, it's interesting that we've been talking about this book for, you know, 20 minutes or so and we haven't even brought up the house fire of it all. The house fire is the inciting incident, but then it kind of fades to the background pretty quickly. It just serves to get them all into the same house and to create, I think, the setup. Like talk about a high concept premise of husband asks wife for divorce and then their house burns down that night. I think that's a very high concept premise. But in terms of how that stays as a front and center plot point through the book, like it. It didn't feel very important for that long.

[A]

Yes, that surprised me. And I think what was maybe weird about it is that the fire metaphor and imagery continues essentially non stop through the book. Like this book is even divided into like the embers, the. I forget the other ones. But you're right, like plot wise, you forget about the even. Like by day two, they're in their parents house, everyone's laughing. Like we've totally forgotten that the house is gone because so much other stuff is happening, I guess. But yeah, I did read an interview where the author said that initially she just needed an inciting incident and then the metaphor was there and so she ran with it.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

Makes sense. Yeah.

[B]

So you alluded to, to having some strong thoughts about the ending.

[A]

Oh, did I? Oh, did I? You know what I felt like with this ending when you realize it flashes 30 years to the future and April has Alzheimer's. I felt like, do you know, remember that 911 movie with Robert Pattinson where at the very last second it zooms out and you realize he's in the Twin Towers. And I don't think I ever felt that's how I felt. Okay, well, he's in a room and then you're zooming. I don't think anyone's seeing this movie. You zoom out, out, out, out, out, out, out. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, he's in the Twin towers and it's September 11th. That's how I felt. I was like, come on. I was like, no, no, no, no.

[B]

I. Oh, that's so funny, because I felt deeply unsurprised by that reveal because

[A]

the I shouldn't have been Josie was

[B]

talking about how she was gonna get tested. And there is, like, an aside moment where I think Rachel tells April or Deb or somebody that Cameron's gonna get tested. And so in that way, like, April is the only one that doesn't get tested. And so it's like Chekhov's Gun, kind of, where it's like, you don't talk about testing this much unless somebody's gonna.

[A]

I know. It's true. I should have known. I don't know. What. Maybe I was mad at myself more than anything else, really, because, I mean, did you like it, though? Did you like that?

[B]

I felt like it was full circle. I felt like it made sense for the book. I was more dissatisfied with the resolution of Leo and April's marital issues and that they were all of a sudden gonna be back together without really talking through what led them there in the first place. And I did feel like the speech about them needing to get therapy felt like a little after school, especially. Like, I don't disagree with the. But, like, the whole thing just felt like a little bit after school special to me.

[A]

The whole book or the whole ending?

[B]

The ending.

[A]

How they came back together.

[B]

How they came back together. Yeah. I did love the scene of Leo's father coming to Christmas Eve and meeting his kids. I loved the resolution of that story. And then I felt like the ending also dragged a little bit. Like, it's like you have the resolution of the marriage. You have Deb going back and seeing that there's a young family who's moved into her old house, which I liked. You have this flash forward, and then the last chapter was kind of this. Like, I don't know what it reminded me of. Like, it reminded me of a documentary that Morgan Freeman would narrate of, like, all of the Addams, and, like, everything's happening at once. So I. I didn't feel satisfied by how the ending came together necessarily.

[A]

I will say that the more I think about it, the more it fits to me with, like, the rest of the book. But, yeah, also, I was already out of it at that point, if we're being completely frank. Like, I think I just realized, oh, this isn't a book for me necessarily. And I think that does affect you. But, you know, the other thing is, I read a personal essay by this author while thinking about this episode, and I didn't realize, but obviously, I don't know how I would have known this, but her background is. Is pretty tough. Her mother was disabled. Her parents got divorced. And then very soon after, when she was young, her mother died very suddenly, and it was, like, extremely traumatic. And she's worked in the foster care system a bunch since. And this essay was all about how to have a family sort of on top of the family that you've grown up with after that. And it was really moving and beautiful and made me feel for her in a lot of ways. And I could see so many of the themes that are woven into this book and in that essay. And so, you know, even though for me, I talk about how it was just too many bad things and bad thing after bad thing, like, it's just. I read her essay and I just realized that, like, oh, this is really what life is just, like sometimes. And I can see that for some people, this book would just be like, you know, a balm for those. Those years and those days that really feel like that, or just like moving on through trauma as an adult. So, yeah, a lot of respect for her in that way.

[B]

It's funny, you know, that I'm such a happy ending person. That's why I'm a romance reader. Like, I like to be left with a feeling of being uplifted or that you can overcome things, which this book did not give to me. I think it gave a large sense of resilience and strength, but it didn't give that, like, glimmer. And this was a light spoiler for a different book. But as we're talking, it's reminding me a lot of the people we keep by Alison Larkin. Did you read that book?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, so that book is about a young girl who grows up in a trailer and has been abandoned by her father. And she kind of goes out on her own very young, and again, like, just all kinds of bad things happen to her. And the ending of that book, though I sobbed my way through the meat of that book, I think that and A Little Life are probably the two books that I've cried the hardest while reading. But that book ends on such a positive note and such a feeling of uplift, and I think that that ultimately changed how I felt about the whole experience.

[A]

Hmm. Okay. I don't need a half banding myself, but I can see how that would make a difference for you for sure. Well, I am happy that so many people love this book. Sorry.

[B]

You're gonna create your own happy ending that trans.

[A]

It was a poor transition. I really am happy that so many people seem to love this book. So many people have found comfort and entertainment and beauty in this book. And that's the beauty of reading in general. So that makes me very happy. And.

[B]

And it clearly pushed us outside of our reader comfort zones of something we wouldn't have normally read. And so it was great to get a different perspective.

[A]

Well, let's get into some n matter. What are you obsessed with?

[B]

I don't think you could have predicted this one if you tried. I am obsessed with my new Drew Barrymore air fryer from Walmart.

[A]

Becca, you're talking to the proud owner of a Drew Barrymore slow cooker from Walmart. So you have found your audience.

[B]

So, first of all, I didn't know that Drew Barrymore had a line of kitchen appliances until probably two weeks ago. But in my newsletter a few weeks ago over the fourth of July, I was saying that one thing I was shopping for was a new air fryer. I had an air fryer that I loved, but I got rid of it when I moved because it was kind of old, had seen better days, and it was pink and I loved it. But I was like, I think I want to get a white one that just blends in more and is a little bit more adult. And so I got rid of it in my move and then I bought a new one and the new one sucked. Like nothing I took out of it was crispy ever, which is the point of an air fryer.

[A]

That's the whole point. Yeah.

[B]

And so I had put in my newsletter that I was looking for a new one, maybe get one on sale over the fourth of July holiday. And probably like four people commented recommending the Drew Barrymore air fryer. And sometimes the crowdsource recs are not helpful because it's very scatter shop. But when a lot of people agree on something like this, I was like, I'm listening. I think it was $45. It comes in a bunch of colors. I ended up getting a light blue one instead of a white one because it's next to an appliance that's like off white. And I didn't know if stark white and off white would annoy me, so I got a light blue and it's cute. This thing is great.

[A]

I believe it. The slow cooker also phenomenal.

[B]

Kudos to Drew Barrymore. I doubt Drew Barrymore has much to do with the product development, but like

[A]

her standards, man, she's doing her thing and they're cute.

[B]

Yeah, loving this thing.

[A]

Well, I'm happy for you.

[B]

I see that you also have a kitchen related obsession.

[A]

Yes, I have had a subscription to the New York Times cooking app for a while. I use kind of intermittently, but I was on there the other day saving recipes because I'm feeling a little bit of an itch to cook or at least I'm kind of dreaming about inspiration for when I am feeling the itch to cook. And I've just been saving recipes and I realized there's videos on there now. So it's basically like tick tock. But you only get New York Times cooking videos which. Which feels. Yes. And you can just scroll through and save. It's very soothing. You can find great recipes. It's so much better than scrolling elsewhere, I would say. So. Yeah. I really like it and I've been enjoying creating a little catalog of recipes to use when I can use them.

[B]

Oh, that is so smart of them to make it into a social feed.

[A]

I thought the same thing. Yeah, it's probably been like that for years and I just haven't realized. But it's great. Wow.

[B]

What about book wise, did you read anything this week?

[A]

I have been reading, but I only finished this. What about you?

[B]

I've been a little scattershot so I started a bunch of books that I will finish but I haven't finished anything. But we do have our August book club pick and I was trying to be very thoughtful about this one because I feel like we've had quite a few downer books in a row. So I was like we need something happier. At the same time, we have a romance for our Summer of Soul August bonus book club. We're reading One and Only by Maurene Goo. So I didn't want to do, I didn't want to double up on romance. And so this month we are going to read the book Witch by Meg Shafer which came out earlier this year and it hasn't popped quite as much as I expected. But this book is so heartwarming and it is such a love letter to books and readers and bookish culture, I think. Oh my gosh. I think our listeners will love this one if they have not already read it. There's something about a Meg Shafer book that has kind of a heartwarming childhood fairy tale quality to it. I haven't actually told you what it's about, but this one is about a book witch named Rainy March. And in this world, book witches can go inside of books to protect them from book burners which you can Kind of imagine the parallel with like book bans that we're seeing across the country. And as she goes inside of these books, she ends up breaking one of the top rules of being a book witch, which is that you can't stay inside a book and you can't develop any relationship with a character. And she ends up falling in love with the main character of her favorite detective novel series. This book was such a heartwarm. This book also surprised me so much. I was reading it, you know, I read maybe the first 50 pages and I was like, okay, I get it. This is getting a little bit cheesy. And then it turned and then it turned again. I found myself being so surprised and delighted by this book over and over and it just gave me the feeling of the heart eyes emoji.

[A]

There's something about this pitch that reminds me of like a bookish practical magic. Is that correct? Not.

[B]

No. I mean, there's no sisterhood angle.

[A]

Because I hate to tell you this and you are going to yell at me, but I am getting into fall mode.

[B]

Are you? So this is not a fall themed witch book. This is kind of a witch book for all seasons. Non denominational witch book if you will. But if your heart is open to magic, which it sounds like it is,

[A]

it always is, then this is for you. Well, you know, I love something cozy, so I can't wait.

[B]

Also, I can't stop talking. Next week is our First Lines episode about first lines of books. This book has a banger of a first line.

[A]

Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. And I'm excited about that episode too.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Lots of good stuff to come. One more thank you to our Summer of Soul partner, Sol de Janeiro for sponsoring this episode. And a quick reminder to go to boutonpaperpodcast.com Summer of Soul for all the info you need for upcoming bonus book club episodes and live events. And go to solde janeiro.com discount bop10 for the automatic 10% discount on your first purchase.

[B]

If you'd like more of us, you can join us in the Facebook group. You can join us in the BFF group. You can join us on Instagram all under badonpaper podcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman. My newsletter is @beccafreeman substack.com and I'm

[A]

oliviamentor all the places.

[B]

See you next week.

[A]

Bye Bye.