The Heated Rivalry Episode

Summary

Bad On Paper – "The Heated Rivalry Episode"

Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Date: February 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this highly anticipated episode, Becca and Olivia dive into the cultural phenomenon of "Heated Rivalry," the buzzy queer hockey romance series (and book adaptation) that has swept the internet. They candidly share their emotional highs and lows from the past week, giving listeners comfort and solidarity in tough times, before launching into a deeply spirited, detailed discussion of why "Heated Rivalry" has captivated so many hearts—including their own. Expect episode-by-episode reactions, analysis of romance tropes and queer representation, as well as personal anecdotes and lots of laughter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Highs and Lows (00:37–13:45)

• Tough Weeks: Both hosts are emotionally drained—Olivia is anxiously preparing for her book launch amid personal losses, while Becca is struggling with the drawn-out process of buying a home.
  • Olivia: "Every dream you've ever had for the book... it kind of feels like being backstage, waiting in the wings to give a performance." (05:28)
  • Becca: Real estate delays, mortgage issues, and lost paperwork make her feel "as close to my breaking point this week as I have been." (09:11)
• Moments of Joy: Olivia finds comfort in a serendipitously great manicure, while Becca reunites with her friend Grace for a joyful night at a Swedish candy event.
• Community and Grief: Olivia shares a moving tribute to Gigi, a beloved local bookstore owner who recently passed, underlining books’ power to create meaningful connection. (06:00–08:22)

2. Origins of Heated Rivalry Obsession (15:45–22:58)

• Becca narrates stumbling into the show through online chatter, becoming an early fan by accident.
• Olivia's Motivation: Urged by overwhelming online hype and a love for pop culture "moments," Olivia watches the show to join the cultural conversation before her own book's launch.
• Fandom and Community: Both marvel at the intensity and collective experience, contrasting it with past personal obsessions (Twilight, Real Housewives, etc.).
  • Becca: “I've never felt this way about a piece of content before in my memory.” (22:09)
  • Olivia: “Maybe Real Housewives…I just like being in community with other Housewives people.” (24:20)

3. Episode-by-Episode Reactions

Episode 1: The Hook of Chemistry (25:42–38:23)

• Expectations vs. Reality: The show upends traditional romance pacing—jumping directly into explicitly steamy scenes.
  • Olivia, hilariously, watches the first episode (with subtitles, no sound) in a nail salon, terrified the moaning will start playing out loud to all. (26:11)
• Casting Magic: Both hosts are floored by Connor Story's physicality (“How does one's butt cheeks look like that?” – Olivia, 28:39), and the intimacy of the cinematography.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • Becca: “There was so much tension in the gym scene…I was immediately so intrigued.” (27:51)
  • Olivia: "My eyebrows were like way up...the top of my hairline. I was like, oh, okay. Hello, hello, hello." (29:33)
• Immediate Steamy Payoff: First full sex scene by minute 17—unusual, bold, and sets the tone for the series.
• Complex Consent and Insecurity: Subtlety in the way pleasure, consent, and insecurity are communicated.
  • Becca: "Shane has these moments of insecurity...and Ilya says, like, no, opposite..." (33:08)

Episode 2: Building Emotional Layers (38:23–46:50)

• Montages: Mixed reactions but strong appreciation for how quickly intimacy and communication are established through clever montage sequences.
  • Becca: "I loved the use of montage here." (39:26)
• Deepening Intimacy: Shifts from purely physical to emotionally charged encounters. The “love-drunk stairwell kiss” is a series highlight.
• Character Development: Ilya’s background in Russia and the risks he faces as a closeted player deepen sympathy for his character.
• Iconic Scene:
  • The hotel room chair-drag sex scene; Becca: "That chair drag...and the desperation in his voice, like, I need you..." (45:01)
• Devastating Texts: Episode ends on Shane’s gut-wrenching “But we didn’t even kiss…” text. (46:22)

Episode 3: Side Couple as Breakthrough (46:53–51:22)

• Kip and Scott’s Storyline: Olivia is “obsessed” with the secondary couple, noting the traditional rom-com arc they bring—complete with a memorable smoothie shop meet-cute.
  • Great comedic relief—Olivia: “I was squealing when she said ‘girl’ the first time…” (47:42)
• Beauty and the Beast Vibe?: Becca highlights the slightly “love-bomby” nature of Scott’s romantic style, revealing the show’s multifaceted exploration of relationship tropes.
• Supporting Cast Praised: Consistent shoutouts to minor characters bringing depth and warmth.

Episodes 4–5: Emotional Crescendo (53:48–73:08)

• Emotional Stakes Rise: With Shane’s relationship with Rose and the fallout that ensues, layers of repression and self-discovery ring heartbreakingly true.
  • Christina: “You could just tell how, like, happy Shane was, which made it that much sadder…I just want him to be happy, you know, please smile.” (57:23)
• Cottage Invite: The iconic “I’m coming to the cottage” line is already immortalized by fans.
• Parental Relationships: Both hosts are moved by the representation of supportive (and imperfect) parents and the emotional pay-off of self-acceptance.
  • Olivia: “When he said that he forgave her…I was a mess.” (76:14)

Episode 6: Romance and Representation (73:23–82:18)

• Happily Ever After: Stresses the power of queer stories delivering joyful endings, not trauma—a breath of fresh air for both hosts and queer viewers at large.
  • Becca: “The example that that sets…for parents, but also for queer youth of, like, it can be okay.” (80:36)
• Tenderness of the Finale: Warm, soft lighting, narrative echoes, and a ride into the sunset solidify the series’ optimism.
• Behind-the-Scenes Trivia: Close-knit cast, budget-friendly tricks (like actors filling in as extras), and the serendipity of unknown leads make the series even more special.

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4. Big Picture: Why Is This Show a Sensation? (83:09–86:34)

• Authenticity: Jacob Tierney’s dual role as showrunner and director, and his status as a genuine fan and member of the LGBTQ+ community, bring a unique sincerity.
• Chemistry & Vulnerability: The unknown actors bring authenticity and lack of baggage—“They really unselfconsciously showed up and lost themselves in these characters…” (85:27)
• Smart, Inclusive Press: The viral media blitz and fan edits fed the obsession, fanning community flame.

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5. A Show for Women, Too: Why Straight Women Love Heated Rivalry (86:45–88:50)

• A Safe Space: No need to compare their own bodies; no male-gaze objectification; a space for pure enjoyment.
  • Becca: “Connor Story's ass has nothing to do with my ass…you can just be lost in the story.” (87:34)
• No Judgment, No Pressure: Pure storytelling pleasure, free of purity culture’s burdens.

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6. Cultural Impact: Publishing, Queer Stories & Adaptation (89:39–91:52)

• Lightning in a Bottle: Olivia: “I don't think that really can be done…sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn’t.” (90:10)
• Queer Stories Go Mainstream: Hosts hope this success gives publishers and studios confidence to invest in more queer-centric romance.

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7. Light-Hearted Finale: Chain Restaurant Debate (92:14–95:15)

• Which Chain for Each Character?
  • Shane: Sweetgreen or Chopt (“Over Sweetgreen? Are you serious?” – Olivia, 93:00), maybe even Chili’s guiltless grill.
  • Ilya: Johnny Rockets (“He would maybe wear one of those paper hats…” – Becca, 94:05), Dave & Buster’s for car simulators, or a classic steakhouse.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Becoming Fans:

  • "It feels good in such a dark time to be really excited about something." – Becca (24:01)

• On Intimacy in the Series:

  • "The hockey is fade to black but the sex isn’t." – Becca, quoting a viral thread (34:57)
  • "The bodies in this show…I just immediately realized this was going to be steamy in a way…Oh, I need to rejigger all of my expectations." – Becca (29:13)

• On Representation:

  • "You can explore really deep issues…but there is the guaranteed container of a happy ending." – Becca (74:09)

• On Queer Joy:

  • "It’s just beautiful… I hope someone watches that and has a model, you know, one day for when they have children." – Olivia (81:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:37–13:45 – Personal highs, lows, and community grief
• 15:45–22:58 – Why we watched "Heated Rivalry" and fandom culture
• 25:42–38:23 – Reactions to episode 1 (including Olivia’s nail salon mishap)
• 38:23–46:50 – Episode 2 discussion & stairwell kiss
• 46:53–51:22 – Kip and Scott’s storyline; supporting cast
• 53:48–73:08 – Deep dives into episodes 4–5 (Rose, the cottage, emotional stakes)
• 73:23–82:18 – Episode 6 & series conclusion: joy, family, and affectionate farewells
• 83:09–86:34 – Why did this show take off?
• 86:45–88:50 – Why straight women love "Heated Rivalry"
• 89:39–91:52 – Cultural impact: queer romance and adaptation
• 92:14–95:15 – Chain restaurant questions, fun banter

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Wrap-Up & Book Club (103:22–104:13)

• Olivia plugs her new cult-themed suspense novel, Little One, out soon and announced as February’s book club pick.

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Final Takeaway:
Even in life’s toughest weeks, pop culture can provide unexpected solace, connection, and joy. “Heated Rivalry” is more than just a steamy hockey romance—it's a cultural phenomenon that brings people together, pushes forward representation, and reminds us all of the power of a good love story, especially when told with heart and authenticity.

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Stay Connected:

• Join the Bad On Paper Facebook group for more discussion, and look for Olivia’s Little One as the next book club selection.

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[End of summary. Skip ads, sponsor reads, and social media handles in this summary for clarity and focus.]

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia, Mentor.

[B]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[A]

And today we have a very special episode talking about one of Becca's favorite things of all time, maybe. Is that fair to say?

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Highly requested. Highly desired. It's our heated rivalry episode, and I have just come off of two days of watching all the episodes, so I'm ready.

[B]

I also feel like I need the listeners to know that this was not my idea.

[A]

Oh, yes. Well, you know, we have Valentine's Day coming up. I wanted to be part of the cultural conversation. I wanted to be pushed to watch it, and so I did.

[B]

I'm so proud of you. I can't wait to discuss this. I feel a lot of pressure to adequately and articulately express how much I love this show.

[A]

Listen, I get it now. I have. I have so much I want to talk about.

[B]

I have five pages of notes. This is perhaps. I mean, I don't usually have longhand notes for episodes, but this is perhaps the most prepared I've ever come into a podcast recording in almost eight years.

[A]

It's also good timing because I think we're both having, like, supremely shitty weeks, so I think it's gonna be. It's gonna be a nice distraction.

[B]

Well, before we complain about our shitty weeks, tell me your high.

[A]

Well, it's also one of those weeks where talking about my high in relation to my low seems very stupid, because.

[B]

Some weeks are like that.

[A]

Low is so low. But, yes, some weeks are like that.

[B]

Which is also a weir, because when people listen to this little one will be out in the world. But we're still in the past recording this. So theoretically, your high is that littleone has launched, and it's fantastic. But here in the past, we're not there yet.

[A]

Yes, I kept thinking about that this morning and how I should sound, like, excited and thrilled and everything is great and happy in this episode because it will be coming out within the first 24 hours that the book is in the world. But this week has just been just garbage, straight garbage. But my high. My high is that I found a new nail person who's very close to me where I live, which is extremely hard to find. And she does a great job. I booked an appointment with her, and I wanted to do something really fun inspired by my book cover. And so I went to the appointment. I watched Heated Rivalry during the appointment.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And I got a pedicure the day before, and I watched Heated Rivalry during that as well, which that was the first episode, so we'll talk about that later. But anyway, she did such an incredible job on my nails. I got, like, a cat eye with a French tip. My nails have never looked better in my life. Like, never, never.

[B]

I can't wait to see them in person. But they look so cool on Instagram.

[A]

It really, really made my day. But, yeah, that is my high within a low week. Ugh. What's your high?

[B]

My high is that I got to see Grace this week. She was in town because her boyfriend's brother was performing at Carnegie Hall.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know. I'd opted out of that because I thought I would be moving. Spoiler. I'm not. I'm still. Still in the same place. And we ended up going to this dinner. It was an event hosted by Bonbon, my favorite Swedish candy company. And I can say that we were not the best company because we just sat in a corner and talked to each other. But we shared about the event, so theoretically, you know, fulfilled the duties. But it was so good to see Grace. I don't think I've seen Grace in. I don't know when the last time I saw her was. So we had so much to catch up on, and it's. Oh, it's, like, making me emotional talking about it, but it was just so nice to see her in person. She's actually coming back very soon, so I also am very happy that I don't have to wait that long to see her again. It was lovely. And then. Oh, after the dinner, we went to the Bonbon store, and we just got to. It was like supermarket sweeps. We got to fill bags of candy, and they had everything freshly stocked with the most popular things. I am apologies to my dentist. I am so excited.

[A]

Oh, my. That is the dream. That is the dream. I'm so glad you guys got to hang out. It looked like such a. A lovely evening. I loved the photos. I love. But the supermarket sweep in the Swedish candy store.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. The dream.

[A]

What a dream. What a nice night. I'm. I'm so glad you guys got to do that.

[B]

So you've alluded already that it's a shitty week. What is going on?

[A]

You know, this is a tough week. Becca, you probably know, I think the week before your book comes out is really hard.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

It's really tough because in some ways, even though for a lot of people, it's like the beginning of the book being in the world, for you, it feels like the end of this process of just pushing the book and selling the book and Every dream you've ever had for the book. And it kind of feels like being.

[B]

Backstage, waiting in the wings to give a performance that you're not totally prepared for.

[A]

Yes, that. And also you kind of have a sense of like how it's gonna go, you know, and you kind of had all these things that you dreamt of happening and some have happened and some haven't and you know, and so you're tired from the process. So I'm not my most emotionally stable self. Pair that with the news, which has been horrific.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

At one point over the weekend, I was in bed and I was watching the Pit on my laptop. No, not at the time, the Pit. And on my phone I was watching Alex Honnold climb the skyscraper. No, no ropes. And I thought to myself, this is relaxing in 2026. No, I thought to myself, the world is so garbage right now, that this is how I'm unwinding. And I had to laugh, but it's just tough to be a human and I think we all feel that. I got some less than stellar book news to start the week, which upset me. My local independent movie theater is closing. Found that out the next day. That upset me. Cause I have such love for them and have enjoyed going so much. And then yesterday I wrote this outline. I wrote that my low was bad, bad week. And then this morning, right before we were supposed to record a podcast, listener messaged me that she had seen online that Gigi, who is the owner of my favorite bookstore in the Outer Banks on Hatteras island, had died unexpectedly and suddenly. I'm so sorry and thank you. I'm gonna really try not to cry. But anyway, I've. I've shared on here about how special she is and that store is to me. And just a few weeks ago, as I talked about, I went down there interview her at her store. It was literally this month, which is crazy that this has all happened in one month. And it was just so special to me. And I can't tell you how much I went back and forth about like going, you know, cuz it was just not a great time. There was a lot of promo stuff going on. I felt really busy. I was like, I don't think this makes sense. I don't know if I should spend the money on going down there on this, you know, project that I'm not even sure anyone will listen to. But I had just always, always, always dreamt of talking to her and telling her how much the store meant to me and how much she meant to me. And yeah, the fact that it almost didn't happen is so strange to me, but the fact that it did is incredible. And I'm so grateful. And I'm so grateful for everything she did for books and just seeing the comments on the Facebook post about her passing and how much she meant to everyone who came there year after year and summer after summer and everything she did for the community as well. So I'm sad, but I'm grateful that I knew her. And yeah, life is tough sometimes.

[B]

Oh, I'm so sorry. I know how much she in that bookstore meant to you and I don't know her, but I'm glad that I get to know her through this interview that you. You'll be putting out shortly. And I'm sure that that might also be a blessing to the people who knew and loved her as well.

[A]

I hope so. I really hope that I can do justice to the cool person that she was. So. Oh man, enough of me crying. Tell me, Tell me about your shitty week, please.

[B]

I. I'm not having a great week either. On a. A different wavelength. I can't say if this is an abnormal amount of things going wrong with trying to buy a house, but I feel like a lot of things have gone wrong during this process and I feel like I am as close to my breaking point this week as I have been, which I'm told is normal.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

A couple of weeks ago my mortgage fell through because they weren't able to lend in the building, which I am told isn't fairly regular thing in New York City real estate. In talking to anyone who doesn't live here, I am given to understand it's a very different process here and in a co op building than what is normal across the country. If one more of my friends ask me when my closing date is, which I still don't know, I probably will snap. Totally well intentioned, but God, I would love to know that. So yeah, we had to switch lenders, go through that whole process again, which was annoying, but they were able to do it so quickly, which I was really glad for. And then I found out on Wednesday that three pieces of paper, which we need to close, which I had overnighted last Friday before the snowstorm got lost in the mail. I paid $95 to overnight them to go a mile away and I thought as I was in line to send them, this is so stupid, it would cost me less to take an Uber there and back and drop it off than it is to mail it. And in my head I. I said no, this is the process. Maybe it needs to be postmarked. Whatever got lost in the mail, it took a trip to Tennessee before it made it to Clinton Hill.

[A]

So. So ridiculous.

[B]

Yes. So I had to go on an odyssey on Thursday morning in 8 degree weather to go to a midtown law firm to get new copies of this and then to drop them off. And people are acting as if it is the. Like they are scaling that skyscraper to get somebody to sign these who lives in this building. So anyway, I'm so frustrated. I do not thrive in uncertainty. I'm fine with change. I spin out with uncertainty. This whole process has been uncertainty. I really thought that I was going to be moved by the end of January, and that hasn't happened. And so I realize that I'm creating some of this angst in my own head, but, God, I just want somebody to give me a date that I can bank on. And, you know, it's not even anyone's fault, but I'm just so frustrated. And, you know, I. I also realize that this sounds so privileged. There are probably people listening who are like, look at the state of the world. And you're in a position to be able to buy an apartment and you're complaining about it. And yes, I hear that too. But on a personal level, and especially doing this as a single person, that there's nobody else in this process with me. I'm kind of at the end of my rope a little bit. Listen, we talked last week about best offer wins. I'm not that far at the end of my rope.

[A]

Oh, well, I mean, look, I know that you talked about this process a little bit on last week's episode, but in reality, like, this has been a stressor for months.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Like day after day, week after week. And that is not fun. Even if it, you know, is a privilege to be able to buy a home. Of course. But it is not fun to sit in that. And to your point, like, doing it by yourself, like, it is so hard to shoulder all that stress, like, and the financial burden, all of it, in addition to running your own business and meeting deadlines and all the things. So I think you have every right to feel exhausted and, you know, at your breaking point, I certainly would as well.

[B]

Thank you. It feels very nice to hear that and to be seen and recognized as not overreacting to this. As somebody who, you know, we've talked about this offline and you kind of know the scope of it. I originally had in this outline, if I'm not moved by the time this episode airs. Please check on me because I am unwell and I have now found out that it is impossible that I will have been moved by then.

[A]

So yeah, well, we're both unwell and we're gonna but we have rivalry by.

[B]

By talking about hockey sentence I never thought would be uttered on this podcast.

[A]

Well, I think we need it. I think we need something happy and distracting. So I'm glad that we can give that to ourselves and the listeners. Because you know what? It's everyone is going through the major national lows we're experiencing right now and everyone also has their own personal lows just like we're dealing with. And like that is a tough thing to balance and it all feels hard and I think it just makes everything feel that much harder. So I don't think we're alone in balancing it all. No.

[B]

Well, let's take a quick ad break and then get into five pages of notes worth of conversation about heated rivalry. I don't know how long this episode's going to be, but we're going to find out.

[A]

Buckle up. This episode is sponsored by Quints. I have been thinking a lot more this year about my closet and doing my best to elevate and kind of supercharge the items I already own and love by pairing them with new basics. I know I'm going to get so much use out of specifically Quince's baby soft white cotton T shirts which I have been wearing under all of my sweaters, which means I do not have to wash my sweaters nearly as much. And I love this. Quint has wardrobe staples with quality that's made to last.

[B]

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[A]

Refresh your wardrobe with quint. Go to quince.com bop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c-e.com bop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com bop. Becca, you were early to the show. You were, I would say, slightly ahead of the worldwide obsession.

[B]

I watched it on the first day. It came out kind of by accident.

[A]

Wow. Really? Okay, so tell me about how you first heard of this and why you clicked play.

[B]

Okay. I don't think I'd heard about the book series, or maybe if I had, it just hadn't penetrated and I wasn't anticipating this show. Oh, penetrated, huh?

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

I saw your face and I realized what I did there.

[A]

I was gonna let it go, but.

[B]

And I cover adaptation news in my newsletter, and this wasn't on my radar. And it just so happened that over Thanksgiving, the show originally came out the day after Thanksgiving. I had gone to Pennsylvania for the day, and on Friday, I was coming back on the bus, and I had some mindless hours on my hands, and I was listening to podcasts and scrolling social media, and I must have run out of Instagram. And I went on to Threads, which is not my usual poison when it comes to social media. And book Threads was obsessed with the show. Even on, you know, this is Friday afternoon, the day it's came out. These people had been anticipating it. These were the book fans. And so I saw all of these people talking about it. And I got home and I was on deadline for my book, but I was like, it's 6pm I'm not going to start working now. So I turned on the show just because I was curious after seeing so many people freaking out about it. They released the first two episodes on the first day, and I watched it and I was obsessed. And then that week, I happened to be doing an event with Sophie Cousins for the launch of her book. And it was at the Ripped Bodice. And as we were waiting for things, I was talking to some of the girls who work at the shop, and they were obsessed with it. And we start. We just were kind of like bouncing off each other's enthusiasm for it. So, yeah, I was in Right on the Ground floor, somewhat unintentionally.

[A]

Yeah. And you were hooked immediately. So you were watching it in real time because the episodes didn't all drop at once, right?

[B]

Yeah, I was watching it in real time. The final episode came out the day after Christmas, or Christmas at midnight, I guess. And I think that the wait and the anticipation did something to amp up the obsession factor as opposed to just being able to binge watch it.

[A]

That's so interesting because I don't know. Well, we'll talk about it, but I don't know if I would have kept watching after the first episode, necessarily.

[B]

I have a lot of thoughts about that opinion.

[A]

Okay, but wait, what about you?

[B]

How did it come into your consciousness? And what convinced you? Because you. You emailed me out of the blue, like, two weeks ago because I had, do we want to do an episode of How Little One Got Made as a placeholder on the calendar? And you emailed me and you said, I think we should do an episode about heated rivalry. And you could have knocked me over with a feather by how shocked I. Because I knew that you hadn't watched it yet.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, I honestly feel like I woke up one day and every single person I knew was talking about it. Like, it felt that intense and sudden, and then it was everywhere on all of my feeds. Like, no matter if I just went on Instagram for a second, I went on Facebook, it was there, Everyone was talking about it. And I love a pop culture moment. I love pop culture in general. And so I wanted to be part of it. And I kind of knew that I wasn't going to watch unless I had to. Oh, why? Because the thing with me and romance is it takes a lot for me to feel compelled to watch it or read it, but once I'm in it, I really enjoy it. A great example is One Day that Netflix series, which is my. One of my favorite pieces of television media of all time. Like, of all time. And I remember I put it on one winter day and I was sick, and I was like, all right, let's see what this is about. And it was incredible. And there are a lot of other romance, you know, movies, books that I feel that way about, but it just takes me a lot to get there. I don't know. I just don't, like, crave it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If that makes sense.

[B]

Do you watch Bridgerton?

[A]

See, I do, but again, it takes me a lot to get there. Like, I was excited for last season because I liked that they had, like, a curvier woman in the lead role with Nicola Coughlin, but I probably won't watch this season.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Because I feel like these shows couldn't be more different, but I do think they have something in common with the overt sexiness of them.

[A]

Yes, yes, that's true. I wouldn't watch either of them on a plane, for example, probably just for my own true billing. I hear you. But, yeah, I kept seeing it everywhere. I was really charmed by the media hits that we talked about and the two main actors, and I was like, let's give this a Go. And so I. I. And everyone was asking for it, and I was like, well, let's do an episode about it. And I. And I honestly thought, also, it would be a nice distraction before the book came out to watch and to talk about this. And that has proved very true.

[B]

I mean, I sent you the other night a Screenshot of my DMs after I had posted a photo with my notebook saying that I was watching this for research for the podcast. And I sent you a screenshot, and I said something to the effect of, this is just a portion of the DMS that I have gotten about this in the last eight minutes. Because it wouldn't all fit in one screen.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. I mean, people are obsessed.

[B]

It gives me peace to know that I am out of my mind about this. But I'm not the only one.

[A]

No. As I said, I have a friend who rewatches it, like, weekly in its entirety. Well, so you're not alone.

[B]

I don't know how exactly we're gonna do this episode, because I kind of just want to bask in moments and talk about each episode. But I know that as a teenager, you were very obsessed with Twilight, and I'm not sure if that's specific to the books or the movies, but I've never had a fandom experience like this that I can remember. I've certainly felt this way. Like, I remember feeling this way about the idea of you, the book, and wanting to force it on everyone. Everyone needed to read this. This was incredible. But because of the asynchronous nature of books, there's not this collective fandom around them at the same time that there is with a TV show that's airing in real time. There was a Facebook group for it at the time, but outside of that, there wasn't a cultural conversation about it. So I've certainly felt obsessed with books, but this is the first time that I've. You know, I wasn't a Belieber. I wasn't a One Direction fan. I really enjoy Taylor Swift's music, but I find some of the clowning around it to be a little exhausting. And so I've never felt this way about a piece of content before in my memory.

[A]

Wow. Wow. I mean, I think I felt this way about one day. I was obsessed, but it's a different thing because I think other people felt really passionately about that show. But. But not to this degree.

[B]

No.

[A]

So it's not like I had a community to go hang out with or. Although I'm sure if I had been on TikTok or something, there would be those people out there, but not like this. I definitely don't think I'm like, at the level you are in terms of being obsessed with it, but I really did enjoy it. Maybe I'll get there.

[B]

Did you feel this way about Twilight, the movie?

[A]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. I think it was like a phenomenon in the same way. Absolutely.

[B]

And you were the right age for it.

[A]

Yes, I was. I was really early high school or late middle school, and so it was perfect. And I remember going to the theater and it being a big deal and it being kind of horrible, but that was like, the funny thing about it. And yeah, I do remember that. But even then, like, because social media didn't exist, like, it exists now, it doesn't have the same sort of fervor, you know? Although I can only imagine if there was, like, press tour junket clips of Robert Pattinson going around then. Cause he's so weird, I'm sure. Because even then, like, I would download his music on limewire and it was so unintelligible but hilarious to us, and we would just play the songs again and again and again. So there's a similar flavor. But, like, in terms of my adult life, I don't know if I can think of anything that I have had as much passion for as people seem to have for this.

[B]

It feels good in such a dark time to be really excited about something. And I think it's also scary build into other areas. I'm so excited about Harry Styles going on tour. Like, it feels good to be a fan girl, to just be uncomplicatedly excited about something in such dark times.

[A]

Yes. You know, actually, if there's something that I think almost reaches this level, like, I do feel this way about Real Housewives.

[B]

Oh, I was like. I was going to say, do you feel this way about Pedro Pascal when you were in the depths of your Pedro Pascal obsession?

[A]

Maybe in terms of, like, every interview, I was like, my heart was aflutter, sure. But it was so brief, you know, and it wasn't like a series. There wasn't one piece of Pedro content that I was like, oh, this is. It also faded very quickly. But maybe Real Housewives, I feel. Because I do. In terms of, like, I just like being a community with other housewives people. Like, I just love talking about the social dynamics, the reunions, the stuff online. Like, I think it's so interesting, entertaining and mindless and great. It's a little different because, like, I'm not having a crush on any of those women. But I, you know, I want to be friends with some of them, and I despise other ones of them. So, you know, there's a similar sense of, like, the fan girlness of it all.

[B]

You have outsized feelings for people who are not fictional characters that are people you don't know.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I could give a PowerPoint presentation on salt Lake City at any given moment, and I think that's probably how you feel about Heated rivalry.

[B]

This is my PowerPoint presentation.

[A]

Welcome. I'm glad to be here. Glad to be participating in it.

[B]

We've never quite done something an episode like this, but I was thinking maybe we can kind of just go through each episode and talk about our reactions, our favorite moments, our feelings on the characters, our feelings on how they were evolving about the show. I mean, take me through your episode one journey.

[A]

Well, let me set the scene for you. I. In a nail salon in a suburb of mild choice. I am getting a pedicure. So I forget to bring my headphones to this.

[B]

Stop it.

[A]

But don't worry, I'm not playing it out loud. Like, sound out loud. Can you imagine?

[B]

So you just. I have it on subtitles. Yes, that's unideal, but you need to rewatch it.

[A]

It's unideal. And I thought about this, but at this point, this was Wednesday, I think, and, like, I just had to fit in the episodes when I was doing other stuff that I had to get done before book tour. So I had to watch it and I had the subtitles on. So scared that the volume was gonna come on at any minute. Like a man is, like, massaging my feet. And I am watching the first episode of Heated Ravelry and I was like, this is too much for me. I was so afraid. I have, like, these plastic gloves on my hand because I was getting my manicure soaked off. And so I couldn't really tap the phone very well. And so I was so afraid that at any point it would just be like, very loud moaning, just going to the whole nail salon. I mean, the thing is, I had so many prior expectations for this show because I had seen it talked about so much. So I wasn't sure. And I think I expected more of, like, a traditional love story, maybe in terms of, like, you fall in love. I mean, this sounds like I'm, you know, a trad wife or something. I was going to say you fall in love and then you have sex. Not that that's how it works for many people.

[B]

The romance genre of books Has a certain convention of you have the meet cute. You have, you know, the fun and games section that plays out the trope. You have a first kiss. Maybe at the 50% mark.

[A]

Yes, exactly. And so I kind of thought that's what we were gonna get, like, the first episode. We get a kiss. The second or an almost kiss. The second episode, when it got to the shower scene, I was like, all right, okay, we are jumping in.

[B]

That's so wild. I was paying more critical attention when I was watching this time, and I was taking note of timestamps. And so the gym scene, which I loved. I loved the gym scene. You know, they have their cute intro. Ilya has his Russian accent, and I was immediately like, I get what we're doing here. This is grumpy sunshine. I get where we are. And then the gym scene at minute five, there was so much tension. There was so much tension, and I was immediately so intrigued. And then you get to the shower scene, and you're like, oh, we're seeing not full nudity. We're seeing full backel.

[A]

Well, listen, I say this respectfully, and I only comment on this because he has spoken about it himself. How does one's butt cheeks look like that? I'm talking about.

[B]

I know, I know.

[A]

Okay, again, respectfully, I'm not objectifying him. He has commented on this himself.

[B]

I would say that since watching this show, I have thought of and done more squats than I have in the past three years combined.

[A]

Listen, I could do squats every hour of my life for the rest of my life, and I would not be working with what is happening there.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

There is no. There's no amount of muscle. It was. I did see an interview. He was like, it's squats and genetics. And so, you know.

[B]

But not just the back, because in the next scene, when he's facing forward and that towel is clinging on for dear life, his torso, the bodies in this show, I just immediately realized that this was going to be steamy in a way. Well, I had no expectations, but I. I immediately was like, oh, I need to rejigger all of my expectations.

[A]

Yeah, I was in that chair at the nail salon. Like, my eyebrows were, like, way up. They were at my. The top of my hairline. I was like, oh, okay. Hello, hello, hello.

[B]

You know what's also wild? I'm very steeped in the lore around this show as well. Not just the show itself, but they got offers for this show probably one to two weeks before they started filming. So Connor Story, who plays Ilya Was just walking around like that. He was not. He was a waiter. He was auditioning. He was not. What was he training for this, I guess. But he was just ready. He looked like that. It makes me objectify. Every waiter, I say, I'm like, what's under there?

[A]

Well, you know, the time that I was like, absolutely in awe of his beauty. One of the early episodes when he's wearing a tux, I was like.

[B]

And that chandelier behind him, that shot was so beautiful.

[A]

Beautiful human being, like, I was just like, wow, wow, wow.

[B]

I think there is a lot of magic in how the show was shot. Because even in the gym scene, I was noticing how close a lot of it was. It was not even the full face. It was nose down. It was a hand, it was an ankle. Like, just such close, intimate shots. And then also the way that they leverage text messages throughout, where you're seeing the text on screen and then you're seeing so tight on their face of the reaction to the text. Like, so much of it was about reactions and how this was shot. Not even necessarily about their beauty, but just. It felt so intimate.

[A]

Yeah. And it highlighted just their acting skills, which I will talk more about, I'm sure, but was really impressed by. And I actually think because I watched at least two or three episodes with subtitles because I was at appointments and stuff, it really, in a way, like, no music, no sound.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

It shows you how much. But. But it made me appreciate how much work both of the actors were doing just in terms of creating certain emotions and experiences. And I was gonna say the text message scenes were some of my very favorite. And those are the parts I was like.

[B]

I usually hate text message scenes in shows or movies. Cause I. I struggle to read them a lot of times. I don't have a very large tv and so sometimes I am at a distance and I can't quite read them.

[A]

That's fair. It was pretty key. I did a couple times have to go back to make sure I read them. But I think, if I understand correctly, I think the texts are a big part of the book as well. And I think to make them feel elevated and interesting and to have them work within what I think is a really beautifully shot show is very impressive to me.

[B]

I want to talk about their first hookup and how that struck you. So the first hookup takes place at 17 minutes, 30 seconds, which is.

[A]

Yep, still in the chair at the nail swab.

[B]

Wild. Like not just a kiss. And. Oh, man, that kiss. There have been a lot of Edits going around the Internet of a slowed down version of that kiss. And it is. It is a kiss for the ages. It is capital C. Chemistry. Like, I knew they had chemistry from the gym scene and from the shower scene, but seeing them interact in that hotel room, the first hookup, my mind was blown.

[A]

Yeah, it was good. It was all good.

[B]

And I think a lot of people say that they. They didn't like Ilia in the first episode, and he's meant to kind of be a jerk before you peel back the layers. But I thought there was something so lovely about their hookup where Shane has these moments of insecurity. He goes down on Ilya for the first time and he comes up and he says, was it bad? And Ilya says, like, no, opposite. And just like the moments of Ilya reassuring him, like, the consent of it all. And then also, like, the playfulness of their first hookup, which I think only grows throughout the show. Like, it was all so lovely and obviously it's very sexy and smutty and explicit, but there was such good character moments of, like, Shane folding his clothes and like, that showing a little bit about who he is or when he puts on the suit beforehand was so cute. Like, it was sexy, but it didn't feel purposeless.

[A]

Yeah, I think actually looking at the show as a whole, something I found really interesting is that there are so many different portrayals of sex in terms of, like, it can be really tender, it can be really emotional, it can be really fun, really sexy, intense, fun, silly, funny, you know, playful. It can be all these different things and you can do all of them with a level of, like, respect and consent, of course. And I really, really appreciated that and came to admire how artfully it was being done throughout the show.

[B]

Yeah, I remember reading this thread early in the show airing where somebody said, I'm going to totally butcher this. I don't have anyone to attribute to, but it's not my thought. But they said they appreciate that the hockey is fade to black, but the sex isn't.

[A]

That is true. That is true.

[B]

Because if you told me that I was ever going to watch a show about hockey, I would have said that you were deranged.

[A]

Well, you know, actually, before I started watching, I was kind of like, hockey is really tough. And, like, making it look like you're good is really tough. Once I watch, I was like, oh, this is how they did it. Like, they're barely ever playing hockey.

[B]

Well, I'm thinking of a show like Ted Lasso, where you, the soccer is really part of it. And you. You hear a lot of the soccer lingo.

[A]

You.

[B]

I don't know how much I learned about soccer, but, you know, from a basis of zero something.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

And did I learn a single thing about hockey in this? Sure didn't.

[A]

No, me either. Maybe like that a backhand is involved.

[B]

I learned some buzzwords, I think maybe.

[A]

Yeah, that's all you need. Goalie. There's the goalie. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I was also shocked because I think having a full naked sex scene in a show in the first 17 minutes is really a bold move. And I was really surprised that there was a second sex scene in the same episode and that I feel like set. I was like, okay, yes. The whole thing was just knocking over and reforming my expectations of what this show was gonna be.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting because obviously I knew everyone's obsession. So I watched the first episode, the second episode, and I'm like, wow, okay, this is a lot of sex. It's very hot sex. Like, I didn't understand it fully until I got to the later episodes. And then I started to really be invested in a way that I really wasn't for the first two. I was just kind of like, oh, you know, sexy. It wasn't like, wow, these characters, I love them so dearly.

[B]

I have heard multiple friends say in the past week that they thought episode one was bad, and it's not. You're not saying that it's bad, but I. I have friends who have said that, and I so disagree. I was hooked from the first minute. And, you know, I do read romance and I do read smut sometimes. And so, like, maybe this is just more my wheelhouse or, like, my comfort with it is different than other readers who are not reading smut. I remember seeing Ira Madison, who used to be a host of the podcast Keep It Watching the Show, and he then went and read the books while it was airing. And he. His reactions were like, y' all didn't tell me that the books were like this, that it was this steamy. And so in that way, maybe it didn't shock me as much having a familiarity with the genre, but I feel really defensive and I object to people saying episode one is bad because on a macro storytelling level, episode six would not hit if you didn't have episode one.

[A]

Maybe. Yeah, I guess I see your point. I. I don't think it's bad, for the record, but I wasn't emotionally invested in episode one. But maybe you're right. Maybe I wouldn't have Been as emotionally invested in episode six without episode one, so it's definitely possible.

[B]

Yeah. I did not feel like the ending of episode one was particularly strong. When they're on the roof in Vegas, they're on the roof after the awards, they kiss, and Shane's like, not here. What are you doing? It's like, see you next season, basically. I didn't think that was the most strong ending. I was already invested. I was gonna keep watching. And they did release the first two episodes together, so it just auto played into the next one. But I think overall, I thought episode one was incredibly hooky.

[A]

Yeah, I totally see that. I was definitely intrigued. But weirdly, you know, like, everyone talks about, obviously, the two main characters, and so that was all of it. And I knew there was this other guy in it because he was doing a lot of press as well. But it wasn't until he came into the picture. Scott Hunter, that's the character's name, and the relationship with Kip and how they meet that I was, like, really obsessed. I loved. I loved them so much.

[B]

Well, are you gonna skip over episode two? Because that's not till episode three.

[A]

Sorry. Well, episode two is very similar to episode one.

[B]

To me, it is and it isn't. So episode two, it has that first montage, which really worked for me, to show how much we weren't seeing because it's only six episodes, and to show how much there's happening off screen between them. They're flirting on text, they're hooking up. Like, we're seeing a lot of it. I heard a lot of people say that the montages were stressful to them, but I loved the use of montage here. How did you feel about it? And if you say you didn't like it, I don't trust you because you were listening with the music off.

[A]

I found some of them a little confusing, like, with all the different dates and stuff. And again, that could be possibly because I was watching on my phone with subtitles, and so I wasn't as like in it, but I didn't find them stressful. There was a lot of, like, hopping around in time that I wasn't always clear about what was going on. But, I mean, I got the gist of it and I enjoyed it.

[B]

Yeah. So episode two is the first time they have sex. They have full sex, right?

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

So we have that. And I thought it was really beautiful. I think the first episode was, like, played as hot. And I thought that the choices that they made during the first sex scene, they like Race up the stairs. I thought that was like really boyish and fun. And then the first time they're having sex, like the music choices that were made during it, it's very close on their faces versus like full body. There's a lot of checking in. Like I thought it was really sweet, especially with Ilya, knowing that it's Shane's first time having sex with a man. And then that love drunk stairwell kiss after they have sex might be one of my favorite moments of the show. Like I was like, oh, there's feelings here. This isn't just sex. That is maybe one of my favorite moments in the whole show. And I think it was ad libbed or not ad libbed, but it was extended. It was made more than it was in the script.

[A]

Yeah, I thought it was really sweet, for sure.

[B]

I think Connor is getting so much attention for the acting in the show because of the Russian accent, which is so impressive, like so, so impressive. He's from West Texas, he does not speak Russian. He got this offer, let's call it 10 days before they were filming and he learned all this Russian dialogue for the show to an extent that he fooled Russian speakers who were extras on set. And it's so incredible. But what Hudson Williams can express with his face and with his eyes and that stairwell kiss, like, is really incredible.

[A]

Yeah, I was actually thinking about this during the show. Obviously Connor's story, as you said, has this like sort of big performance, you know, except towards the end, I, I think he gets a lot more kind of subtle and emotional, but he's like this big, larger than life character in so many ways, this, you know, giant asshole. But I actually think what Hudson Williams is doing is, is so much harder in some ways because the character is so repressed.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

You know, you described it as a version of Grumpy Sunshine, but actually, you know, Shane is very like sad, you know, and you can tell that he's like not the full spectrum of himself and he's like kind of just agrees to everything because he just isn't able to like fully be himself. Sorry, I'm jumping ahead. But the way that you can immediately see in the. When in the cottage scenes how he just comes more into himself and his sense of humor, even the way he moves, like how he brings Ilya like around the house and how he stands, it's so much more confident. And I thought it was so beautiful and impressive because, you know, you could just read it as his character being boring, you know, and you can just tell in every scene like, there's so much going on under the surface and to be able to illustrate that when you're not really speaking all that much, to be honest, he's like a man of few words is so impressive and like, it made it really heart wrenching.

[B]

Have you seen any of the conversations around Shane being autistic?

[A]

No, but that's interesting post textually to the books.

[B]

It's never mentioned in the books that Shane is autistic, but Rachel Reed, the author of the books, has said that Shane is autistic. And Hudson Williams, who is the actor playing the character, decided to play him as autistic as well. And he spoke about having conversations with his father, who's also autistic, to kind of inform character choices he was making. And I think it's a really thoughtful performance of that experience and I think it adds a lot when you're talking about at the cottage, when he is more comfortable and he knows what to expect, he is able to open up more. And so it really informs his character in some of these earlier episodes where you are hearing from him less.

[A]

Yeah, no, I didn't know that. But that definitely adds another layer to things.

[B]

And speaking of layers, I think that the other thing that we get in episode two is we get Ilia at the Sochi Olympics and we get to see him in Russia. And I feel like that was so additive to his character and kind of why he is an asshole, quote unquote. And kind of some of his upbringing, some of what's happening behind the scenes. And also just a reminder that you cannot be gay in Russia. It is illegal. And so what is at stake for him and why he has had to hide this from his family beyond just the fact that he's a professional hockey player? And you know, there's homophobia built into male professional sports.

[A]

Yeah, some of those Russia scenes and the phone calls, I kept thinking, like, there's a world in which this seems soapy, you know, like over the top, like his dad is some sort of high ranking someone, you know, and it just never did. It never did feel like that. I was like, there's aspects of this where it should and it just doesn't. And I think that goes to how it's shot and the acting and I think in a lot of cases, the writing as well. But, yeah, it all felt real.

[B]

I also think the end of episode two, that sex scene in the hotel room, may be the hottest moment of that show.

[A]

They're all kind of blending in.

[B]

I need you to go back and watch this with music and without. I did watch the subtitles. Like, the end that chair drag, which, if you were watching with subtitles, I don't know if you heard the chair drag, but, like, that chair drag. And that Ilya's face the entire time where he tells Shane to get on the bed and to touch himself. And then that interaction between them where Shane says, I need. And it culminates in, like, I need you. Like, the desperation in his voice in that moment. Like, if you were listening with subtitles, you missed so much.

[A]

I wasn't. I was watching this episode.

[B]

Oh, okay, okay.

[A]

You said the chair, and I remembered which one to worry. Yes, Yes.

[B]

I also cannot believe that that sex scene, they shot it on the first day of filming.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Can you believe that?

[B]

Like, they met, obviously. But this was one of the first things they filmed.

[A]

Wow. I cannot believe that, because, yes, that one was. I felt like I was, like, peering into someone's most intimate moment. It felt so real. Yeah.

[B]

And, I mean, I was already invested. I was gonna keep watching this show. But the end of episode two, I thought that was a much stronger button to end on in the hotel elevator where Shane is trying to text Ilya after they hook up, and he types and deletes. But we didn't even kiss.

[A]

That one just broke me. It killed me.

[B]

And the romance reader in me shrieked so loud that they heard it in Saskatchewan.

[A]

But that's another example of, like, it's a scene of someone texting. There's nothing about it that should be artful, really. But it felt so true to, like, first of all, what would actually happen? It felt so true to the character. It was so sweet. Yeah, I really love that moment too.

[B]

So talk to me about episode three, because you said that was your turning point.

[A]

Yes. I think it kind of caught me off guard because it just went this other direction that I didn't realize at all. I knew that he was in it, but I didn't realize that there's a whole other storyline that so much of the series was devoted to.

[B]

I gotta tell you, I'm slightly embarrassed that when I watched it, it took me a solid 20 minutes to realize that Shane and Ilya were not coming into this episode.

[A]

I was kind of confused because I think that's the episode that starts with a previous scene from. And I thought I had, like, gone back accidentally. Me too.

[B]

I'm like, oh, I've already seen this.

[A]

But then once I realized what they were doing, I was like, oh, this is genius. And first of all, I was squealing at the scene with the smoothie and then the girl. You know, the.

[B]

The amount of people to say with that dialogue. There's a super cut somewhere where it's just her saying girl.

[A]

She is so good, actually, I thought throughout. The supporting actors in this are so strong and she is such a great example. But I was, like, squealing when she said girl the first time. And then when the guy comes in and he's like, that was Scott Hunter. And then she said girl again. I was like, this is perfect. This is perfect. They actually had the thought, like, I hope when they wrote this scene and then they acted it, they knew that, like, this is chef's kiss. Like, there's. It's just perfect.

[B]

Well, this is a much more traditional romance arc. This is the meet cute in the smoothie shop. We're dancing around each other. The hijinks of that. Kip smashes into him with the tray. The first hookup, it gets more serious. The third act breakup. Like, this is a very traditional romance format.

[A]

Yeah. I will say, the only part I didn't like is when he's like, I'm so intense. I want you to be here every day. I hate. I want you to be here when I get home. And he's saying it like he is an absolute serial killer. And Kip is just like, sure. And I think it also really didn't work for me because everything else is so sweet and so cute. And it's like, I want you to be here every second of every day.

[B]

I have to tell you. And I know this is not a popular opinion to have in the fandom.

[A]

Ooh.

[B]

I like this couple significantly less because there is something very Beauty and the Beast like about this. First of all, that whole interaction was very love bomby and like.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Then the whole thing is very Beauty and the Beastie of, like, I have this gorgeous castle. Slash, you will stay here and never leave, and you will have to forsake your friends and family in order. You know, and it was like, there was something about it, and I understand that that needed to exist for the moment in episode five to exist. But there was something toxic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Lurking underneath this relationship that I did not love.

[A]

I totally get that. And that's kind of what I was picking up on there. But if I take a step back, if I just focus on the smoothie scenes in the beginning and then the scene at the end, which I thought was so moving and beautiful.

[B]

Do you mean the scene with Pip's dad?

[A]

No, but I Loved every. Speaking of supporting actress, I loved every scene with that, man. I was like, oh, my God, what a. And he has so little material, and yet you know exactly what kind of dad he is. Yep. You love him. You want to be in his family. Like, and it's so sweet and beautiful. Yeah, like, the.

[B]

That scene.

[A]

Supporting actors, man, they're doing work where he comes.

[B]

Kip comes home after him and Scott have basically broken up, and his dad's like, you got your acceptance letter. What's wrong? And he just kind of breaks down, and his dad is like, oh, buddy, I was in tears.

[A]

No, same. I cried multiple times. I was brought to tears.

[B]

And that was what Kip's dad, man. HBO Max released the avatars that you can make your avatar on it. The characters from that, and everyone's really up in arms. So there's no avatar for Rose. But I'm like, okay, but what about Kip's dad?

[A]

I know. He was so great. He was so, so great. Their arc was really sweet, and I also loved that it was like, this isn't just about, oh, there's two gay hockey players in this league. It's like, there are tons. These stories, you know, and tons of versions of these stories and people who aren't able to, like, live their truth because, you know, there's no precedent for it, and there's all these antiquated rules and systems, and. And so I. I liked that it just added this layer of, like, there are all these different stories of love.

[B]

So in the book series, I believe there's seven books right now, and there's one more coming out, and there's two books for Shane and Ilya, and then every book covers a different couple. And so in the books, basically, Kip's friends just start banging their way through the New York Admirals, or whatever the team name is. Kyle, who's the bartender, has one book where he is with, I think, one of the teammates on that team. I think there's, like, a side romance with Elena and one of the players. Like, it's basically just like the Kingfisher. The bar that they go to becomes, like, a central perk. And, like, Kip's friends are just banging a lot of hockey players. Well, good for them.

[A]

I mean, you have to keep the series going. There's only so many versions, I guess, when hockey is at the center.

[B]

Should we take an ad break and then continue our way through this series? I think I just have to accept that this episode's going to be two hours, and I don't care. I will not censor myself.

[A]

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[B]

Speaking of lighting, I need a lot of lighting for my new apartment because the outside of the kitchen and the bathroom, there's no overhead lighting. So a lot of lamps are going to be coming into this apartment. And I think Wayfair is one spot that I'm going to be spending a lot of time browsing. Because no matter what you're searching for, Wayfair's huge selection of home decor items makes it easy to find exactly what's right for you with their incredible filter.

[A]

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[B]

Okay, so I think this show. One thing that's really fascinating about it is that there's a huge turning point. From episode two and three into episode four, and even more so into episode five and six, it just becomes so much more emotional. Also, I have to know, did you watch episode four with subtitles?

[A]

No. Halfway through three to the end. I watch normally.

[B]

Okay. Because the other thing that episode four has is it has two of the biggest music moments in the show. It starts with My moon, my man, and then ends with running through my head. And I was not super paying attention to the music before, but this episode really clocked me in.

[A]

Yeah, it's pretty great.

[B]

Like, honestly, the montage to My moon, my man at the beginning of episode four, like, nominate it for an MTV Video Music Award of the year. I'm probably not eligible. But, like, that montage did things for me. Like the workout scenes. First of all, the workout scenes. Who am I? Oh, my God. Like, the workouts, the hookups. Shane's dumb commercials were so silly. And funny. Like the checking the calendars to see when they were gonna play each other. Like the cute, coy texting reactions. I was kicking my feet and giggling and also a little hot and bothered.

[A]

Yeah, I really, really like this as well. I also appreciated generally how many shirts were molded to individual abs. Like they were clearly like someone. Much like the commercial Shame was shooting, someone was going in with like a paintbrush and, like making sure they outlined each one.

[B]

Respect. Where do I apply for that job?

[A]

Yeah, someone's doing it.

[B]

This is also the episode of the Tuna Meltdown.

[A]

The Tuna Meltdown, I didn't like. He was like, I will make a tuna meltdown.

[B]

I love this scene. Also, I think there's something so genius, which is in the book, but it's more pronounced in the show. The runner about ginger ale and the fact that Ilya has ginger ale for him, whereas everywhere else in the world he can't get what he actually needs as a metaphor for Ilya being what he needs. But I thought this scene was so excellent. Like the switch from we've only seen them hooking up, playing hockey and like text flirting or sparring. And this is like the first time that we get to see them hang out. And Ilia makes him the tuna melt and then they hook up and they say each other's names and like, you can see the panic on Shane's face so viscerally. And I'm just screaming at the screen like, you idiots. And oh my God, I thought it was so good. And there's an extra book scene. It was like a bonus scene that Rachel Reid released, I think on her website. And it's this chapter from Ilia's point of view. And in the book, he's planned all of this. He's orchestrated this to get Shane to be comfortable and to stay over. And he like goes shopping for the tuna melt things because the tuna is something that Shane could eat with his diet and he gets the ginger ale. Like, he's planned all of this. And knowing that made me. Oh, it made it so crushing. There's like the romance trope of he fell first, he fell harder. And I think in this one, like, you see Shane at the end of that love drunk kiss. You see after their first sex scene in the elevator, we didn't even kiss. And like knowing that Ilya orchestrated all of this, that he fell first, he fell harder of it all, like just, oh my God, it got me.

[A]

Yeah, I really started becoming, like, really invested when they actually started spending time together. And I could see how cute they. You know, how cute they were together just doing nothing and, like, the sweet moments. And you could just tell how, like, happy Shane was, which I was like, I just want him to be happy, you know, please smile. Which made it that much sadder, I think, when he went through the whole thing with Rose, I thought the Rose.

[B]

Of it all was so impactful. If you look at it, it's less than half an episode that Rose and Shane are together. It probably starts two thirds of the way into episode four and goes through the first couple scenes of episode five. They're together for a blip. And I thought it was so impactful. Just the pipeline of the conversation that Shane and Ilya have of you like girls.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then Shane's like, oh, okay, I have to go get a girlfriend. And how bothered Ilya is by it. I thought it was incredibly. Even though obviously I want them to be together, but I thought the impact was great.

[A]

Yeah. And that's another character where when she was introduced, I was like, oh, my God, another person who. But then she's so good. And again, another supporting actor killing it. Just everyone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's so nice to see Shane supported in that way, you know, and that he clearly feels, like, safe with her in a different kind of way. He's able to open up, and it really just. It added so much, and she's there so briefly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the club scene that episode four ends with.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And just the song switch from the original tattoo version of the song to, like, the angsty male vocals and the eye contact of the scene. I feel like this is an iconic scene that in 10 years and people talk about this show or reference this show. I think this scene is going to be one of the core scenes that come to represent the show.

[A]

I have a question about this scene, though.

[B]

Okay. I've consumed enough theories that I. I can already anticipate what you're going to ask, and I. And I have the answer.

[A]

What do you think I'm gonna ask?

[B]

I think you're gonna ask if in the montage at the end when Shane is having sex with Rose and then Ilya's in the shower, if he was thinking about Ilia or if that was actually happening. Was that what you're going to ask?

[A]

No. Oh, okay.

[B]

Actually, why that was hotly debated.

[A]

I mean, I guess this is kind of touched on later, but I was kind of confused in the moment why Miles was, like, kissing Shane's neck. I was like, that's kind of weird.

[B]

That that did feel weird.

[A]

I mean, like, he's into him. Okay. But, like, that's kind of violating. What? It's.

[B]

My co worker was, like, grinding on my boyfriend. I would. I would be like, can you please stop that?

[A]

And later, Rose is like, yeah, Miles would. I'm like, we know Rose. We saw, like, he was right there and it was like he was kind of creepy. Like. Like he was just kind of. I don't know, it was just a weird vibe. That was just the only thing in that scene that was slightly off to me and made me kind of think, like, huh. But otherwise great. And I just kind of assumed it was Elia thinking about Shane, Shane thinking about Ilya. Yeah, yeah, Both, right?

[B]

Well, no, because Shane's having sex with Rose and, like, the difference, right, of him having sex with Ilia, where he's so clearly rapturously enjoying it, versus him having sex with Rose, which looks like he's being subjected to a medical appointment, and he has to think about Ilya in his head in order to get off. There was a lot of dissecting of, like, whose shower was that? Is this a scene that we've seen? Did this actually happen? And, oh, I think the consensus the Internet came through is that he's using thoughts of Ilia jacking off in the shower in order for him to get off.

[A]

Right? Yes, I saw it as that. But then also somewhere, Ilya is in the shower doing that, thinking of Shane, not thinking of him having sex with Rose. But I thought it was kind of like a split screen. Like, here is Shane thinking of Ilya, and here is Ilya thinking of Shane, maybe.

[B]

I think that Internet consensus came to was that that was a shower that was at somewhere else that they had hooked up.

[A]

This is so funny.

[B]

And so it wasn't actually a hotel room in Boston. Like, who knows if Ilya went home with the woman he was dancing with or what, but that it was Shane thinking about Ilya.

[A]

That's so funny. Yes, yes, I assumed as much.

[B]

Shall we Talk about episode 5? Let me turn my page here of notes. If you're hearing the ruffling of pages.

[A]

Maybe my favorite episode, actually, I come.

[B]

Close to agreeing, but I think episode six is my favorite episode.

[A]

It's tough, the scene where that moment on the ice is happening and it's cutting to Shane with his parents and Ilya with his friends, and Shane to his with his parents and Ilya with his friends, and then the phone call happens, and then it's like, I'm coming to the cottage.

[B]

Oh, at the end. I was like, what are you talking about?

[A]

To me, it's like, that is one of the most delightful scenes in a show that I have watched in so long. Because like, you can feel how much this means to them and you can feel how much they're hoping it's what they think it is. And then even though I knew the cottage was like, had been proposed when. Sorry, I'm skipping ahead. But like, when I think of this episode, I think of this scene.

[B]

I think that line is an iconic line that you know, the same way that if I said to you we were on a break, you know what show I'm talking about? Like, that is for this show.

[A]

Yes, I have heard the remixes with it. It's like, I'm coming to the cottage.

[B]

I'm coming to the cottage. The dance remixes. But I think this is like an iconic line that you could quote and you would instantaneously know what somebody's talking about.

[A]

I think it's great because I wasn't expecting it. It threw me a little bit. Cause I was like, oh, of course. Even though I knew that was a famous line before then. And I was kind of waiting for it because you're so invested in what's happening in the, in the scene on the ice and like with his parents and all the reactions. Like it kind of takes you out of the whole cottage plotline of it all. And then for him to say that, oh, I just loved it. I thought it was perfect, just perfect. And then it just cuts. Brilliant.

[B]

I need to send you. I need to see if I can find it. There's also behind the scenes footage of Connor and Hudson, the actors watching Scott and Kip kiss on the ice. Cause I think they filmed all the hockey scenes like condensed over a couple days. And they're both kind of in the stands watching them film this scene. And they turn around and they both are wiping tears. Like they're both emotional watching it. And it's so sweet.

[A]

Oh, that is so sweet. I was in tears. It was so lovely. I thought it was just beautiful.

[B]

But even prior to that, I thought this episode was so wonderful. You have the Rose and Shane breakup. And I'd actually seen a spoiler about this before it aired about the round peg, square hole line. And then him saying that he actually likes to be the peg. And I, in my head, I was like, there's no way that they're gonna put that into the show. Like you cannot use that dialogue without it being just stomach churningly cheesy. And the fact that they did. And that it played. Oh, my God, it was so great.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it works because it's like one of the first moments where you start to see Shane, like, actually Shane, you know, you start to see his sense of humor. You start to see him feeling more comfortable and more confident, and you can just tell that, like, with every person he tells and with every bit of, like, freedom he gets, and it's just like this weight lifted off of him, and you can just. He just stands up taller and he's funnier, and it's like, you know, silly jokes or whatever. Like, I just loved it.

[B]

I mean, kind of. But that moment is also so. There's like, a quiet and sad part of that moment before he says that, where he says, rose asked him, am I the first person you've ever told? And not even using words, he's just nodding and his eyes are tearing over. And, like, the sadness of that moment, too, and, like, the juxtaposition of the sad and the funny just. It worked so well. It's such a cheesy line, or could have been such a cheesy line. And the fact that it's not just being played for gimmick. Mm, I don't know. There was something about that next to his. His sad, sad eyes that, like, really, really did it for me.

[A]

I think it's sad, but I think he's so immediately, like, relieved to tell someone and even, like, in a way that I don't know if he is fully aware of it until he, like, makes a joke and he's like, oh, I can joke about this now, because this is who I am. And, you know, and I'm finally able to voice that. And I feel like from that moment on, he is just so different. But, yeah, it is. It is emotional, for sure.

[B]

Also, I thought the All Star Game was so fun of getting to see that silly side of Ilya playing with the kids in the pool.

[A]

Oh, yeah. That was so sweet. I love that.

[B]

That was so sweet. And then seeing their chemistry on the ice when they were playing hockey together. I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think that was the only time in the show where I almost wish there was more hockey, like, a little bit more. Getting to see them, like, when he kisses him on the cheek after they score, they score a goal, and they're just like. I don't know the cocky terms, but they're just skating and passing to each other, and they're both so in their element and so happy.

[A]

Yeah. It's very fun. I agree.

[B]

It's really interesting, too, because at the hotel after the game, there's something really interesting comparing episode one and two and even four to episode five and six, because at the hotel after the game, they completely skip the sex scene. You see Ilya after, and he's in his boxer brief, so you assume that they've had sex, but, like, the tone of the show changed. Like, they're having vulnerable conversations on both sides. Like, Shane's talking about his sexuality, Ilya's talking about his dad. And, like, we know they had sex, but we only see the emotional intimacy. And that's one of the reasons why I think I was saying that I feel like episode one is so important because you wouldn't appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah, I definitely noticed and felt that towards the end as well, that they were cutting, they were fading to black on a lot more scenes, and they were making room for much more of the emotional stuff. And it felt really beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. Because their relationship was changing. I feel like one of the most talked about moments of the show is the Russian monologue. How did that land for you?

[A]

Oh, I thought it was so lovely and moving. I loved it so much. It was wonderful.

[B]

I love in romance, the trope when somebody confesses their love to somebody else, either when the character's sleeping or, like, right after they got off a phone call, or in this case, in Russian. And like, you as the reader know, but the other character doesn't know. I melted for this.

[A]

Yeah. I love Shane just listening and, like, clearly feeling every word. But then instead of saying, like, you know, what did you say? Or he just says, oh, do you feel better now? And I thought that was so moving as well. Just like, very sweet and tender.

[B]

And again, the talent of a non Russian speaker memorizing and performing that much dialogue. I saw some interview where Jacob Tierney, the showrunner director, talks about them filming that scene, and there was a dialect coach on set, and Connor performed that monologue, and Jacob looked over to the dialect coach and said, how much of that can I use? And she said, everything.

[A]

Wow. It's very. It's very impressive.

[B]

It's so impressive. It's so impressive. Like, their commitment to their craft on what on the surface could have been a frivolous show, I think is something that makes this show so special.

[A]

Yeah, it is really, like, they're taking it seriously.

[B]

Seriously in a way that, you know, I've heard. I listened to Matthew McConaughey's memoir, and when he talks about doing rom coms, he talks about it somewhat dismissively, you know, of doing how to Lose a guy in 10 days. Like, it's beneath him almost. It's like a phase of his career, but it's not satisfying to him as an actor. And I think both of these actors taking this show so seriously, when, you know, romance is not the most respected genre of TV or film, it, like, is so special. And you get moments, like, on both sides. You get the incredible monologue. You get Shane's reaction to it, and it's like it has so much resonance.

[A]

It's true. Yeah. I mean, romance is really just about, like, being seen for who you are deeply, you know, by another person in the world and how rare that is. And I think when you're able to really show, like, what the other person is seeing and what you want them to see and what you don't and explore all the different sides of that, I think it's just. It's incredibly powerful and so meaningful. And it's funny because I had watched all of the. Not all, but I watched a shit ton of fan edits and interview clips and stuff before I watched the show. Interesting. And so I had. I met Connor's story first. Like, before you met. Exactly. And I think at first that created a little bit of a block for me, or, like, I was a little out of it, but by the end of it, I just fully believed that these were two people who were in love, you know, I fully, fully believed it. And that is something that is incredibly, incredibly hard to do.

[B]

I'm not exactly sure where. Probably, like, around episode four, a lot more press started coming out with the actors as it was airing. And I think that only deepened my appreciation for the show, seeing how different the actors are from their characters. And I mean, even just looking at Connor's story, looking at that man, he has a different face than Ilya.

[A]

Yeah, I know. It's true. It's really true.

[B]

And it gave me so much more respect for the show in a way that it was. This was not just, oh, we're gonna cast people who are very similar to these characters, so it's not that much of a stretch. But seeing their personalities and how sweet and what a golden retriever Connor is in interviews and how chaotic Hudson is versus what a restrained performance, what a nuanced performance he gives as Shane, I was like, oh, my God, like, this is incredible.

[A]

Whoever cast this show should win some sort of award because, as I've now said many times, like, the performances from top to bottom, no matter how, like, brief of A time someone is on the screen, they all work and they all feel so thoughtful and fully realized. And that is not the case with, like, huge, huge shows, I think.

[B]

And they, they were doing it on a. A fairly low film and TV budget, you know, like, yeah, both Connor and Hudson are unknowns. Like, the risk that they took on that. And even I have heard them say that they didn't have enough budget for background actors. So in a lot of scenes, like, it's the core cast just like sitting backwards or filling in scenes because they didn't have budget. Like at one of the airport scenes when Ilya is waiting for a flight, I think one of the background actors is Shane sitting backwards.

[A]

Amazing. I didn't know that.

[B]

Okay, I think it's time to go to the cottage.

[A]

God, that cottage. I want to go to the cottage. It's so pretty.

[B]

Speaking of romance, one of the other things that I thought was really special to me as a romance reader was seeing the online chatter coming into episode six before it aired. And so many people were saying, I'm so nervous. I'm so worried about what's going to happen because. And especially queer men were used to seeing queer stories end in trauma.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And people were so worried online and seeing people be so happy about how the show ended and embracing the promise of the premise of the romance genre that there's going to be a happily ever after or a happy for now and like, how meaningful that was to people really touched me in a way that I was like, we all get it.

[A]

Yeah. I did have that feeling at the end of episode five that like, this had the vibe of someone's going to die. I knew obviously that wasn't going to happen, but it did have that feeling of, like, tragedy is around the corner. And maybe you're right. It's because I've been conditioned to seeing, like, not as many happy endings for queer couples. And that's so sad. And I'm glad that that wasn't the case here.

[B]

But I think that that's what's so special about the romance genre is that you can explore really deep issues and you can explore really deep emotions, but there is the guaranteed container of a happy ending. Like, you know, reading it. Like, there are some books that I will specifically avoid because I know that they are two things sad for me at a moment. Like I've said, I still haven't read Sandwich by Kathryn Newman because we all want impossible things just shattered me so much. And I'm like, oh, God, I have to be in the Right. Mind space for this versus. I think that's something so wonderful about romance, is you can engage with tough topics and, you know, in this homophobia and self acceptance on Shane's part. And, you know, you can't explore these things, but you know that nobody's gonna drive off a cliff at the end.

[A]

Yeah. This is the episode where I cried the most.

[B]

Like, nominate this for an award I've so far given out Video music award for the year. You've given an award for casting. I don't think there's any award show that does awards on an individual episode basis. But, like, this episode was so beautiful. And I loved the parallel moments with earlier episodes. Like, even just on the most macro level, like, the way this is shot is so bright and yellow and light, versus so much of the earlier episodes are very dark and in hotel rooms and, like, much moodier. And then the parallels with, you know, there's a scene of them on the couch touching feet, which mirrors the moment of them in the gym. There's another moment of them touching feet under the table at the dinner with Shane's parents, which mirrors a press conference scene. Just so much of the mirroring is so amazing. And also, like, the difference in the emotional tenor with episode one, for instance. And, like, even Shane saying, right when they get to the cottage, him saying, like, let's try to be honest with each other. Like, I just thought this whole episode was so beautiful.

[A]

Yeah, I loved it. It was so sweet. The stuff with his parents. Oh, my gosh. I was like, when he said that he forgave her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, I was a mess. I was an absolute mess. But it was so. It was just so beautiful. All of it.

[B]

It was so beautiful. But it was also the. It was the same show. Like, it had two of my favorite moments. Like, you know, you start off with this smutty show, and then it becomes much more emotional. But two of my favorite moments in it were, first of all, the bellboy lines where he's like, sir, I'm just a bellboy. You can't treat the staff like this. And Ilya says, oh, yeah, you'd think after all these years, I know how the staff likes to be treated. Like, I loved that line. I loved the moment where Ilya gives Shane a blowjob while he's on the phone with Hayden. And then how that. Then, you know, earlier in the show, that just would have been the moment, but then it dovetailed into a conversation of Shane saying, that was so hot. And Ilya saying, like, yeah, because you like to be bad. And then Shane reassuring him that that wasn't what this relationship was, or at least not anymore. Like, it really built what we'd seen in the earlier episodes.

[A]

Yeah. And as I already said, I just loved seeing Shane, like, happy. And.

[B]

Yeah. Also the I love you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The I love you exchange was so beautiful. And that pause afterwards where you're not sure if Shane is going to freak out the same way he did in episode four, or if he's going to say it back and instead he like doubles down on it.

[A]

Yeah. Also the stuff with Ilya's mom.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that she would have loved you. Yes. I'm like, I was like, I was a mess. I was a mess.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I also really, really, really loved structurally, that the source of tension in this episode, because I know a lot of watchers and readers. I was talking to my friend yesterday about the summer I turned pretty movie. And he was saying how excited he is and I was like, well, what are they going to use for tension in this? You know? And he's like, I would just watch three hours of them just being in love. And I'm like, I maybe. And some fans, that might be true, but you really do need conflict. And in a romance, there's usually a third act breakup, the same way that you see with Scott and Kip. And in this, the fact that they used an external source of tension, Shane's dad catching them as opposed to breaking them up only to bring them back together, I really loved that.

[A]

Yeah. As intense as it was, it was actually quite funny how he just like drove away and like. And at the same time it's like, it's like you're scared for him and you're like, oh, my gosh. But like, to me, it felt so real that the dad would just bolt.

[B]

And there were such moments of levity within that. Like, it was obviously really intense and. But the moment they go to the car and Ilya comes out in the Boston shirt and Shane goes, that won't help. And he's like, what, you think they don't know I play for Boston?

[A]

And also when he's like, well, maybe he didn't see. Yeah.

[B]

Or made me laugh. The lovers moment.

[A]

Oh, yes. I was laughing so hard at that too.

[B]

Like the blending of the same with the rose breakup. Like the blending of heavy and light.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think one of my other favorite moments, like, every time I see it on social media, I always stop is that moment towards the end where Shane is having a panic attack at the table, and he puts his head down. And then Ilya gets to reassure him and say, like, you're good here. You're with your family, you're with your boyfriend. Like, you're good here. Shane's parents getting to see Ilya being good for him. Something about that just floods my stomach with warm and fuzzies.

[A]

Yeah. Like, watching that episode last night after just having such a down week was such a moment of just, oh, gosh, this is just what life is about, you know, these kind of moments. And even if they're really messy and, you know, it takes a while to get to them. Like, it was just really, really heartwarming and lovely. And I loved how quickly. I love that his parents had a reaction that was like, okay, we're gonna need a second to process this. This is news to us. Also, there's, like, guilt and shame for not knowing and. But then there's, like, you know, asking to be forgiven for the ways that they may have fallen short and then bouncing back and just being like, you know, we'll bring the drinks tomorrow, we'll bring the pasta or whatever it is, and just immediately welcoming, you know, them as a couple into the family was just beautiful.

[B]

The example that that sets for, you know, not that it's going to be every parent's reaction, but just, like, the model that it sets both for parents, but also for queer youth of, like, it can be okay. There's also a really lovely coming out scene in red, white and royal blue. And both of those scenes just make me really, I don't know, optimistic, I guess.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, me too. Like, I hope someone watches that and, like, has a model, you know, one day for when they have children to, like, you know, you just have to show your kid that everything is fine and you love them and apologize for the ways you could have done better. And that's it.

[B]

I also loved the ending of this episode, the visual metaphor of them riding off into the sunset. I think the show was developed maybe with lower expectations of a second season, and so there's obviously a second book and there's plenty of fodder, but this could be a discrete miniseries in and of itself because it was originally developed with Crave, a Canadian streaming service that has 4 million subscribers. I don't think they planned for the release that they had.

[A]

Yeah, I don't think they could have for sure.

[B]

But I loved the ending. And it's so funny because when this originally was on, I thought the montage was, like, perfect. When it originally aired, HBO started to Try to get you to watch this other show. And it was like, do you want to watch the seduction? And it minimized the credits seen in the car. And fans were so outraged that HBO changed the ui. They changed the interface, because people were like, no, like, I don't want to watch the seduction. Show me these credits.

[A]

That's so funny. They are doing a second season, though, now, right?

[B]

Yeah, they are doing a second season. And then I've seen people say that they're greenlit for a third season. I don't think that's true. I think they are contracted for a third season. So the actors have a third season in their contract. Should the network want to.

[A]

Do you know the plot of the second book or, like, the general?

[B]

I do. I read Spoiler for what I read this week. I read the Long Game this week.

[A]

Is that the second book?

[B]

Yes, that's the second Shane and Ilia book.

[A]

Okay. Okay. I'm interested to see where their story is gonna go.

[B]

I think it will be really good. They're a couple, and it plays much more on the struggles that they have being a couple living in different cities, trying to decide, like, they're stable in their coupledom, but, like, trying to decide whether or not they should come out publicly.

[A]

Okay, I see. Oh, that could be good.

[B]

It was very good. I loved the book.

[A]

Well, what do you think it is like? I mean, obviously we've talked about so much of it, but is there a single reason that you think that the show has taken off like it has?

[B]

No, and I'm desperate to figure that out. I keep having conversations with people about what it is that made it so successful, and I think there's a couple things that I keep circling around. I think the fact that Jacob Tierney, who is the showrunner director, came into this property as a fan. He read the book. He's a gay man himself. He read the book. He was a fan of it. He wasn't reading it with an eye towards adaptation, but then later approached Rachel Reed, the author of the books, to discuss adaptation. I think there's something really meaningful about that. I think a lot of times cooks end up in the kitchen of adaptations who don't belong there, who are, whether that be network executives, whether that be it's written by somebody who's a fan, but then directed by somebody else. Like, I just think that there's a lot of times a lot of cooks in these kitchens. And I think the fact that he was both showrunner writer and director for the entire thing really brought something to it. And also probably that it was produced by Crave instead of a larger network like Netflix that might have wanted to have more input into it. And it actually, it was at one point being developed somewhere in the US and they said that they couldn't kiss until episode five.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Which would've been a real different show.

[A]

Very different.

[B]

So I think it's something to do with that. I think it's something to do with the acting performances. I think it's the chemistry of the lead actors, and I think there's a vulnerability and maybe like a lack of self consciousness, both that it was their first major starring role in both cases, and they probably weren't bringing in a lot of baggage of, like, this is a weird example, but, like, if you think of the way that Jacob Elordi comes into a role, he, like, knows that he's going to be judged critically. Like, he has a baggage about himself as an actor where this fits into his canon of acting roles. What is a Jacob Elordi role versus I think these people just, like, really unselfconsciously, like, showed up and lost themselves in these characters in a way that it might be harder for a more tenured actor to do.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. And Jacob Elordi knows that there's going to be so much commercial pressure for how the project performs, whereas I'm sure that absolutely no one involved in this project thought it was gonna do this.

[B]

Or, you know, maybe it's like somebody criticized Jacob Elordi about XYZ three movies ago, and so he feels like he has to do B instead of C. Or, you know, he has a chip on his shoulder about having come up in a kissing booth, so he can't lean into these silly romantic comedy moments because he wants to be a serious actor. And again, this is a arbitrary example. The question was never Jacob Elordi versus versus Connor Story, But I'm just talking about a different type of actor. And then I think the other thing is the press around it, like the press tour. I think that if not for the social media edits and being really fed by press interviews, I think that escalated the level of fervor in a way that has made this, like, such a phenomenon.

[A]

Yeah, that's definitely a combination of factors. I think it all hit at once.

[B]

What I want to talk about, I'm really curious to get your opinion on, is there's a lot of discourse about why this show specifically appeals to straight women so much. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[A]

Hmm. I mean, it's refreshing, I guess. Do you have any theories?

[B]

I have a couple. I think the nature of this show so thoroughly excludes straight men from the discourse that there is no straight man having opinions on this, which is really refreshing. And it's a way for women to experience love and lust and connection without straight men being part of it. And then I think there's also something. And I'm curious if this resonates for you at all. It is lower. I don't know if lower pressure is the right word, but it's a different experience to watch something where you do not have to critique or compare your own body to what you are seeing on screen.

[A]

Like, I was about to say this. Yeah, I totally agree with you.

[B]

I can look at and appreciate these bodies. Connor Story's ass has nothing to do with my ass. Like, you're not sitting there being like, oh, do my boobs look that way during sex? Or, you know, am I skinny enough? And there's also something that if there was a woman in a show that was equally sexual or smutty, it would also start to create conversations around purity, culture, and objectification and is this woman having too much sex? And, you know, whatever. And I think, like, it, being two men stopped some of that.

[A]

Yeah, I totally agree with you on the. There's nothing to compare yourself to. There's not that feeling of, like, oh, this is what quote, unquote, perfect sex looks like, or because, like, you're. You're not seeing yourself reflected and you.

[B]

Can just be lost in the story.

[A]

A relief in a way. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Because, I mean, every romance movie you see, aside from, like, that one season of Bridgerton, really is just a woman who looks a very specific kind of way that 99.9% of women do not look like at all. And it does create this thing where you're like, that's the standard, you know, so not have. That is a relief. I am going to do more squats, though.

[B]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I've. I have thought about the bodies in this show, and it has led me to work out this year in a way that I have not in a while. Like, I gotta do squats. I gotta. I did a few before bed last night.

[A]

You know, I do appreciate, though, that, like, they look very different from each other, you know, like, physically. I mean, they're still obviously both very fit. They're both very attractive. But I think what's interesting, seeing, like, two people of the same gender is they're both so attracted to each other, they could compare each Other, you know, but they clearly don't, and that doesn't matter. And in a way, that's kind of nice too.

[B]

I'm just leaning in now. I don't. We're at. I don't care how long this goes.

[A]

I'm sitting in the most uncomfortable chair in my home. But keep sitting there almost two hours. So I might not be able to do squats after this.

[B]

But I have one serious question and one fun question, and then we. I will release you into N matter and we can go. How do you think the success of the show and also the books? I've read that the books have sold 2 million copies since the show came out. How do you think the success here will impact publishing or more broadly, adaptations in the future?

[A]

Hmm. Gosh, I don't know. I mean, I know people will try to emulate it, but the thing is, I don't think that really can be done.

[B]

There is a lightning in a bottle quality to this.

[A]

Yes. I think they hit a combination of actors and script and just general creative vision and source material. That is really hard. And not to go back to one day, but there is a one day movie and there is a one day series. Both were received very different critically and very different in terms of popularity, with the series being much, much, much, much, much more popular and better reviewed. And I think that's a great example. Like, sometimes it hits and sometimes it doesn't, and I think it's harder to make it hit. I don't know. I mean, I think we're already seeing sort of like a sports romance trend. Right. That's been going on for a while. I'm sure a lot more of those will be in development.

[B]

As far as the book side of it goes, I feel like we're at peak sports romance. I cannot imagine more sports romance, but.

[A]

You know, that's what's gonna happen.

[B]

I'm curious about the prevalence and, like, the mainstreaming of queer romance, I think is something we haven't really seen. You know, there's red, white and royal blue. There's. I mean, there's a little life, which is very different genre wise. There's the series, but, you know, there hasn't been a ton of mainstreaming of queer romance. And so I wonder if publishers will be more open about taking bets there or putting publishing resources behind queer love stories. And also with regards to adaptation, I hope so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I know there's been a lot of discourse around where in the Bridgerton series where Benedict's season would go. I think originally it was supposed to be much earlier, but because there was a queer aspect to it, they pushed it later because they didn't think audiences would respond to it. So, you know, like, the distinct proof point of, like, queer people, but also straight women will watch this if done well.

[A]

I mean, the proof is there. I was actually pretty shocked when they came out. I guess it's based on the book, but I was really thinking that they were going to make the Love interest for Benedict a man. And I thought it would have been the right thing to do. But I think they're going based on the book, but maybe now they're wishing they changed it. Well, what's the fun. The fun question? The silly question.

[B]

Oh, the silly question. Okay, so one of our listeners, Patty, DM'd me, and she said that she needed to know, and then I agreed that I also need to know. Going back to a vintage bat on paper question, if you were to take the two characters in this show separately or together to a chain restaurant, where are you taking them?

[A]

What a tough question. I know you've already thought about yours a lot, so why don't you just tell me? Go ahead.

[B]

I have Shane, and especially in the books, has maybe some disordered eating around, healthy eating. So I feel like the obvious answer where he would be comfortable is like a sweet green. But I don't love sweet green. I would take him to Chopped, see how he likes Chopped as a.

[A]

You prefer chopped?

[B]

I love chopped.

[A]

Sweet green.

[B]

I love chopped.

[A]

Are you serious?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Over sweet green? Yeah.

[B]

Chopped. Sponsor Race. I love Chopped. I love. It's like their Southwest. I don't know, like their Southwest salad or something sometimes. Well, I mean, you know my trajectory of getting a tuna melt at LaGuardia. But there's another escalator where you come up. There's a Chopped right there. So sometimes I got a chopped salad to bring home.

[A]

Interesting. There was one right below our office when I lived in the city. So I exhausted my. It kind of feels like a salad place. Like if Subway were a salad place. That's what it feels like to me.

[B]

Agree to disagree. I love Chopped. Shane and I are going to Chopped.

[A]

Okay. Have fun at Chopped.

[B]

So Shane and I are going to Chopped, Ilia and I. And I'm not positive that this really exists anymore outside of the Cancun Airport, but I'd like to take him to a Johnny Rockets. I think that he would be entertained by the spectacle of the people dancing on the bar and, like, the song of it. Like, I think it would be very American. He would be entertained by it. He would get into it. He would maybe wear one of those paper hats. And in the long game, he eats fast food, so I think, like, he'd be really happy with a burger and fries there.

[A]

Okay, you have the books, which is more of a resource in terms of knowing these specifics, because I was kind of picturing him as, like, a steakhouse guy.

[B]

Oh, sure. Well, where are you going to take him? Are you going to take him to Outback? Are you going to take him to, like, Smith and Wolinsky? Where are you going?

[A]

Like a real classic steakhouse, you know, like, where they have martinis, they have creamed spinach, they have ribs crisp.

[B]

Capitol Grill.

[A]

Something like that. Something like that. Okay, we'll go. We'll go there. It'll be great.

[B]

You know what? In the books, he's a big car guy, so you could also maybe take him to Dave and Buster's for, like, a car simulator.

[A]

Perfect. Perfect.

[B]

Where are you taking Shane?

[A]

Shane? I feel like I want to take him out of his comfort zone a little bit.

[B]

Where are you going to go?

[A]

Let me think on this for a minute.

[B]

Chili's does have a guiltless grill menu. I just want to bring that up.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Shane could find something there.

[A]

Maybe we'll go to a Chili's. Maybe we'll go to a Chili's and I'll order the triple dipper, and I'll just kind of be like, you'll be okay, buddy. You know, like, we'll get through this together and we'll actually have a great time.

[B]

You mean mozzarella stick, Shane?

[A]

I mean, sounds fun to me. Sounds great. And I'm sure they have ginger ale as well.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

It's important. Well, is there anything else that you want to mention about this show? Because it is your passion, and I want to make sure you get to say everything. And we'll just push into three hours here.

[B]

I know. I just love it so much. And I hope that the next season is double the amount of episodes.

[A]

I think it'll be at least 10.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

Well, what are you obsessed with?

[B]

Okay, I have a slightly dangerous obsession, which is the brand is called Splits Extra Salt Pretzels.

[A]

I know it. As a pretzel lover, I know this.

[B]

Oh, so I had these at a Christmas party. My friend Julie had them. She got them at TJ Maxx. She's a real maxinista. And they are so good. I say they're dangerous because they have so much salt on them. And yesterday I had Four and four is too many. I woke up so violently dehydrated. Like, my mouth was so dry because they have so much salt. So I think, like, one.

[A]

How could you get through these?

[B]

There's. I mean, it was over the course of a couple hours. These pretzels are so good.

[A]

I like, they have a extra dark version which is like, kind of. They're not burnt, but they're like, borderline. And they're so good.

[B]

Oh, I'm looking at the package over on my counter right now. Even though I just told you that I woke up, like, not able to swallow because my mouth was so dry. I'm like, can't wait for this to end so I can have some pretzels.

[A]

I hope you enjoy them before they go stale.

[B]

I have a chip clip on them.

[A]

What about you?

[B]

What is your obsession?

[A]

My obsession is my new bed, which arrived, I don't know, week and a half ago at this point. And because it has been so brutally cold, like, it has not been above freezing in a week, it's not gonna be above freezing for another 10 days. It was negative one when I looked this morning, so who knows what the feels like temperature was. It has been really miserable. It's really hard to keep our house warm. But I have been treating myself to a lot of time in bed. So I wake up, I go downstairs, I get my coffee, I go back upstairs, I get back in the bed, I read there. I do work on my laptop there. I get back in it, like, as soon as I can after dinner. I do more work there and I watch TV there and I go to bed. This is usually not how I operate. I generally never work in bed. I rarely watch TV in bed. But it is so cold. And it has been such a bad week that I have allowed this, and it is bringing me such joy. And I love my new bed and just look so good in my room. And actually, I don't know if I told you this. I posted a photo of it on Substack and Jenna Bush Hager restacked it, and I was like, one day, maybe you'll like my books in the meantime, like, my bed.

[B]

It is such a cute bed. And it reminds me of that laptop case that you ended up getting but you talked about in a. In a gift guide episode. You talked about in some episode. It is like, of the same family.

[A]

I love a ruffle. What can I say? Well, what have you read?

[B]

You know, I have been having a really hard time with my attention span this week because of what is happening. In the news because of what is happening with my move. And I've had a really, really hard time focusing. And I last weekend started and couldn't get into a bunch of books. And so I was like, you know what my heart wants? My heart wants Shane and Ilya. And so I read the Long Game by Rachel Reed, which is the second book that takes place after the events of the series. And I loved this book.

[A]

Ringing endorsement. Did you read the first one?

[B]

Okay, so I did read the first one. I read it while the show was airing. And the thing about the show is it's a very faithful adaptation to the book. So I maybe didn't find it as exciting as if I had read it separately from the show.

[A]

I see. That makes sense.

[B]

But this was all new material because.

[A]

This woman must be raking in cash right now.

[B]

Well, I'm happy for her that she is because she was also diagnosed with Parkinson's around the time that the show was announced. And so she said that the success of the show and of the books have allowed her to get better care for her Parkinson's. So, you know, know that.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I didn't know that when you're supporting these books that obviously the author's share of royalties is not the lion's share, but, you know, some of it is going into her pocket.

[A]

Oh, God, I'm. Wow, that's horrible. I didn't know that. I'm so glad that she's. She's doing better or at least able to access better care because of this.

[B]

What about you? What did you read?

[A]

I finished three things. The first thing I read is let's Not Go overboard Here by Erica Hendry. I read this book to blurb it and I read it over the weekend. It was like Freezing Snowstorm and this. Gosh. I blurbed it and described it as if an Agatha Christie mystery was written by someone who hosts a hilarious Bravo podcast.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

If you like Bravo Things the Bravo Universe, you will love this. It is incredibly similar tone wise to the Finley Donovan series. It's about this woman who basically ends up on a yacht, not unlike Below Deck. There's a lot of Below Deck references. And a woman goes missing and she kind of takes it upon herself to figure it out, but she's also going through intense grief after the loss of one of her close friends. And it's just. It's so fun, but it has a lot of heart and it's hilarious. And if you love pop culture, you love Bravo. Like, this is worth reading. It's very Fun. And that one is out June 2nd. Okay.

[B]

What else did you read?

[A]

I also read Missing Me by Ayanna Lage, which is out March 17th. I already talked about this on the reading preview episode, but I finally finished this this week, and it's just such a stunning memoir. It is so beautifully written and I just had to give it another shout out because I was blown away. Even as someone who knows most of the ins and outs of Ayanna's life, as a friend who's talked to her every day for more than a decade, I was so surprised by a lot of what is covered in here. It's about her religious upbringing and her journey to motherhood and then the postpartum psychosis that she experienced. And it's just really raw and vulnerable and powerful, and I wanted to give it another shout out.

[B]

I am curious if, you know, will Ayanna narrate the audiobook?

[A]

She does not.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Well, either way, they did ask her. Okay. It's a lot of pressure, I think. I think it was. It's too much to listen to yourself talk that much.

[B]

I was curious, but I feel like audiobook is my preference. So I'll probably be checking this one out in Audiobook. But I was curious if she read it herself.

[A]

Yeah, no, it is a quick read or listen, though. It's tough to read in spots, but it's never in a way that feels so heavy that you can't go on, but at the same time, so honest. And, yeah, it's just great. The next book I read was Saoirse by Charlene Hurtabees. It comes out February 24th. It's about a woman who is outrunning a very rough childhood, ends up in Ireland and steals the identity of a woman. I can't quite figure out what I made of this book. It's not quite a thriller, it's not quite a romance, but there is a really beautiful romance in it. I kept thinking when I was reading this, if you liked Slanting towards the Sea, you will love this. It is suspense, but it's on the slower side and it's very thoughtful. And it's set in Ireland and the scenes of Ireland in particular, I think are gorgeous. But, yeah, this one comes out the 24th, and it has a gorgeous cover.

[B]

Well, all of that time in bed has been put to good use, clearly reading. But pitch us on our February book club pick.

[A]

Yes, I wrote it. It's called Little One, and it's about a woman named Catherine. The story is split between two timelines and in the past, we see her as a child growing up in a very intense, insulated community in central Florida, some would say a cult. And in the present we see her independent, successful as an adult. And when a journalist starts to investigate the place where she was raised, all of her secrets come to light slowly. Also, if you are interested in hearing an hour long preview of the audiobook, which is narrated by the amazing Helen Lazer, we are going to release it as a bonus episode of the podcast. So you can listen to the first hour right now and if you enjoy it, you can order it and it'll be out. So you can then just listen to the rest of it or read the rest of it and then we're going to discuss it at the end of February.

[B]

Make sure you get your orders in. I cede my time to you this week. You just. I don't have anything I haven't given the gift of this heated rivalry episode.

[A]

If you'd like to talk about heated rivalry with us, we would welcome that. Of course you can join us in the Facebook group under about on Paper Podcast. Instagram is under Bound on Paper Podcast. We have a BFF group formerly known as Geneva which is under Bound on Paper Podcast. I am on Instagram and substack at Olivia Mentor and go buy her book. Yes, thank you.

[B]

Bye Bye.