Becca Freeman (2:46)

Do you think that you're going to become an outdoor writer this summer?

Olivia Mentor (2:50)

Maybe. You know, it's really hard because of glare.

Becca Freeman (2:55)

Yes.

Olivia Mentor (2:56)

And so I really try not to, like, strain my eyes. Actually, part of the reason why I love my office is because I can look outside and I can feel the breeze and hear the sounds, but I am not in the elements. I'm under shade. I kind of move around. So. So I have like a nice indoor outdoor situation now, which is. Which I'll take.

Becca Freeman (3:16)

Okay, so a resounding no.

Olivia Mentor (3:18)

Well, I do like writing outside. It's just that I really hate when I'm like, in some sort of a flow and like I suddenly can't see or I start sweating or something else. I hear you.

Becca Freeman (3:27)

I'm a delicate flower writer in my office only. What does that mean for this proposed writing retreat? Who knows?

Olivia Mentor (3:36)

It could be good. It could. It could be refreshing.

Becca Freeman (3:38)

I've been very productive up there before. I specifically can recall writing one of my favorite chapters in the book I'm working on right now up there. I guess it would have been two years ago. So I feel like this book has deep main roots.

Olivia Mentor (3:53)

That's kind of a nice feeling to be in the same place where you wrote something specific and to see where it is now, to see all the other things that have changed, to see how far you've come. It's like a nice way to, like, pass the time and like, reflect on all your work, I think. Yeah, well, what's your low?

Becca Freeman (4:11)

I just had a weird, bad day yesterday. This isn't normally my anxiety mo, but I had this day where basically from the moment I got up, I just had this feeling of like, everyone hates me and thinks I'm annoying. And specifically, I'm not like, trying to fish for compliments, but. But I really felt like it wasn't about people in my real life. It was about people on the Internet. I hate how much I care, but I just. I feel like with maybe taking a turn into influencing, I just feel really self conscious about. Have you seen that? I mean, I feel like Bo and Yang has the metaphor of climbing Cringe Mountain. Or there's that other meme of like, you're here and your goals and like, it's two cliffs and what's between them.

Olivia Mentor (5:00)

Is cringe that's kind of funny. No, I haven't seen that.

Becca Freeman (5:04)

Yeah, I just feel self conscious. And so I just had this really icky feeling hanging over me all day yesterday that I'm annoying. And I was really glad that I ended up texting one of my group texts from my mahjong group. Cause I was seeing them later that night and I was like, I'm so excited to see you and giggle with you and play mahjong because I have this icky feeling. And one of my friends had happened to take the day off yesterday who lives nearby. And so we met up for a walk, which was really nice. And we just walked and talked and it was so nice outside. It was truly nice to touch grass. So I'm feeling better. But it was just a really icky in my head day yesterday.

Olivia Mentor (5:41)

I get that. I. I'm sorry you had that day. I am really glad that you went on a walk, though. That's such, like, a nice way to reset, as we've talked about, especially with a friend. But yeah, I mean, I think, like, that's part of being on the Internet. Like, who among us hasn't experienced that at some point? All that is to say, like, I think it is a natural reaction to have sometimes. You know, I think sometimes you think you have those feelings, that icky feeling, and you're like, this is because of something. And it isn't necessarily. It's just when you're sharing your life online that's, you know, sometimes you feel like, oh, like everyone out there has an opinion on this, or some people do. And wondering what it is is natural, I think.

Becca Freeman (6:19)

Thank you. It makes a big difference to know other people have the same feelings sometimes. So thank you.

Olivia Mentor (6:25)

Definitely.

Becca Freeman (6:26)

Have you brought us a low today?

Olivia Mentor (6:27)

I have not. It's been a really quite. Quite a nice week. So I'm feeling pretty good.

Becca Freeman (6:33)

Yeah.

Olivia Mentor (6:33)

No lows.

Becca Freeman (6:34)

Well, then, let's take an ad break and then get into this book.

Olivia Mentor (6:42)

This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. And just a note to be sure to listen to the end of this ad for a very special BOGO deal that is available for this month only. So Mother's Day is right around the corner, and it is the perfect time for all of us to reflect on how motherhood really can look different for everyone. Some people have close relationships with their own mothers. Others are mothers themselves. Some people have mother figures in their life or close friends who are mothers. And all of whom we love dearly, of course. And no matter how motherhood appears in your own life, one thing I think we can all agree on is that moms deserve the best. So why not gift a mom in your life Cozy Earth this year and.

Becca Freeman (7:25)

Specifically some Cozy Earth bamboo pajamas which are the perfect way to wrap yourself or that special person in your life in comfort and care. So I have the short sleeve and short pajamas, but they come in literally every combination of sleeve length and pant length. So whatever your preference or your gifties preference is. And I love these, they're so soft, they're so breathable. But I also feel like they're put together. I always think of them as my company pajamas. If I'm going to be a house guest somewhere and I might be hanging out in my pajamas. Like I feel like these are really cute put together. Very Nancy Meyers movie esque.

Olivia Mentor (8:06)

Yeah, they're just classically nice. Just standard lovely pajamas. No matter what year it is, how old you are. Just great. And you can get 40% off with our Code Bop at Cozy Earth. And we also have an extra special offer for you this month to celebrate moms everywhere. This weekend only, May 2nd through the 4th, cozy earth is giving our listeners a special promo so you can buy one get one free for the bamboo pajamas, which is a pretty incredible deal and also a great way to get something special for a mom in your life. Use code B O P Bogo to take advantage of this. That's B O P B O G O to get buy one get one bamboo pajamas. The moms in our life really do deserve the best and this is a great way to gift them something special this Mother's Day. So let's talk about this book. I've really only received one text from you about how you felt about it, so this should be fun.

Becca Freeman (9:17)

Yes, take us through a quick synopsis first.

Olivia Mentor (9:20)

Sure. So Wild Dark Shore is about the Salt family and exactly what happens when a wounded woman washes to shore on the remote island on which they live. Located near Antarctica, Shearwater is a fictional island and home to a research station in seed bank where which the salts are in charge of caring for. As the family nurses this mysterious visitor back to health and learns more about her, the readers us learn more about why exactly this woman came to the island and all the ways her life and the salts are intertwined. Bom bom bom bom. So yes Becca, I have talked ad nauseam about my deep love of this book and I'm really curious to know where you net it out because from your text I have an idea but I don't know if it's actually right. So tell me, how did you feel about this book?

Becca Freeman (10:13)

Okay, so I really enjoyed it, which, not that I didn't expect to enjoy it, but it's interesting because I do think this has a lot of overlap with Isola, which we read in February, which I strongly did not like, but I really liked this. I mean, definitely a key difference is the contemporary timeline and themes. I did almost no research, other than what you told me on the podcast into what this was about, so I wasn't even sure what genre this was or what to expect. And I feel like it was much slower than I usually like. However, every time I started to get bored, there was a twist and then I was back in. And so I really enjoyed it. I did text you that my final review was like, this is as if you were watching the movie Titanic, but the whole movie had been about the couple who went to bed while the ship was sinking to die.

Olivia Mentor (11:13)

Okay. Yeah, so that was the text. I was like, oh, she's gonna say she hates it because it's too depressing.

Becca Freeman (11:18)

Oh, no, I didn't hate it, but I was. I found it gutting.

Olivia Mentor (11:24)

It is. I reread the last few pages as I was writing this outline, and I was like, oh. Oh, God. It just. It's. It's really sad. It's really quite sad, but in a beautiful kind of way, in my opinion. So you had no expectations really?

Becca Freeman (11:37)

No.

Olivia Mentor (11:38)

At all. Beyond what I said. That's certainly so interesting.

Becca Freeman (11:40)

I knew that it was about a family on an island in Antarctica. I don't think I expected the murder mystery element, if you could call it that, because it turns out he wasn't murdered.

Olivia Mentor (11:53)

The mystery is great. Like, you were talking about the twists and turns. I was not expecting the level of twists in this book. Like, I was surprised by pretty much everyone, which I don't know if it's. That I was, like, more focused on the whales. And I was like, oh, the whales, the beauty, the seals. And then I was like, wait, I've got this all wrong. But you talked about genre a little bit. I did a quick Google search of this. Cause I was like, what genre is this? Actually, I would kind of describe it as personally, like, a literary mystery, which is my favorite type of book. But I also saw online, like, climate fiction, psychological fiction, romantic mystery. I saw. Which was interesting to me. What would you say it is? And is there an element in it that kind of worked for you the most? Like, you were into the mystery or not the romance, or you're into Climate fiction or whatever.

Becca Freeman (12:48)

So I would say this book dual majored in climate fiction and literary suspense and it may be minored in romance. If you went in looking for a romance, I don't think you would be.

Olivia Mentor (13:01)

I agree with that.

Becca Freeman (13:02)

Totally satisfied. Certainly no happily ever after.

Olivia Mentor (13:06)

Nope.

Becca Freeman (13:06)

And as far as what worked for me, I think I really like that it did turn into a romance because, I mean, obviously that's not surprising because I'm me. But I also think that upped the tension and the stakes so much about all of them being invested in Rowan, not just because she was this battered woman who washed up on the shore, but because she was part of their future. So I think that really worked for me. I find climate fiction very hard. I think this was very well done. I think. I hope this doesn't make me sound like an awful person, but I just find the topic to be so big and overwhelming and anxiety inducing. And I find, you know, obviously there are small, everyday steps that people can take, but I find the overall issue so out of my control in a way that makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. And so being confronted with that gives me a light stomachache.

Olivia Mentor (14:06)

Yeah, I totally understand that. And I actually, like, I knew that this was called Climate Fiction or the other books that she has written. Once There Were Wolves and Migrations. I know for sure Migrations is specifically about climate change and people rave about both of those books, by the way. I want to read them.

Becca Freeman (14:23)

But Once There Were Wolves is as well. It's set in Scotland and it's about. They've eliminated the wolf population which has then caused butterfly effects for.

Olivia Mentor (14:37)

Oh, like all the species.

Becca Freeman (14:38)

Yes.

Olivia Mentor (14:39)

Interesting. Yeah. So I knew that going into it and, like, it didn't make me not want to read it, but there's nothing about like, oh, this hot new climate fiction book coming out that makes me be like, wow, I'm getting in line right now. You know, it's just not. It doesn't really speak to me. And similar to you, I find it very like, what do we do with this? And I thought what was most interesting about this from a climate fiction perspective was that I wouldn't call it hopeful in any sense, but it did really speak to this idea of, like, so many people in the world are having children still, you know, and this world is not doing great and, like, why that is and, like the reason why it's valid. And it wasn't like the book, and I love books like this, but it wasn't like it presented like, this is right and this is wrong. You know, here's how you live a good life and a crumbling.

Becca Freeman (15:34)

Yeah, it wasn't preachy whatsoever.

Olivia Mentor (15:37)

Yeah.

Becca Freeman (15:37)

And everyone was sometimes right and sometimes wrong. Like, it was a very nuanced view of it.

Olivia Mentor (15:42)

I felt absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's really what I loved about it. For me, the mystery was, like, at the heart of it, and just the writing, I thought was so, so beautiful. But the romance, for me, I could have kind of like. I mean, I didn't not like it, but I could have kind of taken her or left it. I don't know really.

Becca Freeman (16:01)

But do you think the ending would have landed as hard if there wasn't the romance?

Olivia Mentor (16:07)

Well, you know, the ending really hit me in the gut most of all because of the relationship between her and Orly, I thought was so beautiful and sweet. I mean, it's weird because I didn't dislike it at all. I thought it was actually interesting because I did not expect it, but it just wasn't. Like, the thing. If I were to pitch this book to someone, I wouldn't even mention the romance. Probably, Like, I wouldn't even be like, and there's a great, hot romance.

Becca Freeman (16:37)

Well, I think you shouldn't know that going in. It's part of the ride, not part of the pitch.

Olivia Mentor (16:43)

Yes. Yes. I think it did add something interesting to it, for sure, because all of the people in this family had their own attachment to Rowan in very individual ways.

Becca Freeman (16:53)

Speaking of very individual ways. So the book is told from 5 POVs, which is a lot. Rowan and Dominic are in the first person. Fen is in the third person. Raph is in the third person. And then Orly has these little interstitials where he's telling a little story to Rowan. So I'm curious how this worked for you. Also, did you listen to any interviews with her coming into this?

Olivia Mentor (17:22)

I did just one, but yes.

Becca Freeman (17:25)

Where was it? Was it the same one I listened to?

Olivia Mentor (17:27)

It might have been either Writers on Writing.

Becca Freeman (17:31)

That's the one I listened to.

Olivia Mentor (17:32)

Or the Barnes and Noble podcast. I think it was Writers on Writing.

Becca Freeman (17:35)

Oh. So we listened to the same interview we did, but I thought that was interesting how she got there. Anyway. Tell me how it worked for you.

Olivia Mentor (17:42)

First, I thought it was interesting. I think the thing that surprised me about it the most was that there was no. There's no pattern. There's no cadence to it. Like, sometimes it would go from I don't think I noticed that to Fen. I did, but only because I noticed that certain characters were getting so much more page Space. And obviously like Rowan is a main character and that makes sense. Dominic is a main character and that makes sense. But like for example, Raph and I looked at this because I was looking at the book as I was writing. This does not even appear as a perspective until like 40 pages in maybe or 50. Like it's. You hear from everyone else, some people multiple times before you ever hear from ref. So I just don't usually see that in books with multi pov. Have you seen that before? I guess maybe it doesn't matter to you or it wouldn't be on your radar.

Becca Freeman (18:32)

However it was, it felt natural to me.

Olivia Mentor (18:35)

That's good. Yeah, I think it felt natural as well.

Becca Freeman (18:38)

I will tell you my biggest gripe with this book. It's petty gripe. My biggest gripe is that everyone except for Dominic had spiritually similar names. Only Raph and Rowan actually have names that start with the same letter. But I would say Orly. There's the consonants of the R sound and Fen, like they all feel as if they're. And it makes sense for the siblings because they would be named by the same parents. But I had a bitch of a time probably for the first 70 pages remembering who was who. I was like, is Rowan the woman that washed up or is that Orly and like. And they're all kind of non gendered names too. I had such a tough time keeping everyone straight because their names just felt the same flavor.

Olivia Mentor (19:33)

Yeah, I know what you mean. And I remember reading and kind of having that experience as well. Specifically, I think Rowan and Fen. I confused a lot for some reason. Maybe it's just the two women, but I got them confused as well. Yeah, I did like the names though. I thought they were cute just as names.

Becca Freeman (19:50)

They're lovely names. And I think on paper if you showed me a list, I would be like, oh no, those aren't confusing.

Olivia Mentor (19:55)

But in reading it, I also Rowan and Raph.

Becca Freeman (19:58)

Like, yeah, I found it really hard.

Olivia Mentor (20:01)

I agree. I try my best when writing now to make sure every character has a name that has a different first letter, which I think is helpful when I read.

Becca Freeman (20:11)

But I agree. But in this case, Orly and Rowan, one is O, one is R. And I still found that confusing. Interesting because of the consonants.

Olivia Mentor (20:20)

Did you feel a special attachment to any of them more than the others?

Becca Freeman (20:23)

I definitely felt more attachment to Fen just because I thought the premise of a teenage girl having grown up in this way and I thought this about all of the children, but I think because I was once a teenage girl I maybe felt particularly attached to Fen's experience. I was like, how are these people going to fare in the real world? It certainly didn't make sense for the book to continue into that transition. I would certainly read a sequel. I don't think there needs to be one in any way. But I was like, what a bizarre and singular childhood. How will this person. Like, it's homeschooling to the 879th degree.

Olivia Mentor (21:07)

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is actually my last question I had on the outline, but it was, what happens to them? I actually had a similar feeling to, like, the last scene of this past season of White Lotus, where they're all sitting on the boat and you're like, well, what happens next? Like, how do they survive in the world with, you know, the only universe they've known just collapsing and disappearing? And I. I don't know if they're gonna do okay. I will say, I don't know if Fen is gonna. I don't know.

Becca Freeman (21:36)

I agree. It felt so lovely and idyllic, and she's. She's one of the seals. And I. I thought all that was so beautiful. And I was like, this girl does not feel equipped for the real world.

Olivia Mentor (21:49)

I know. I did also love her, though, and, like, this idea that she was the only woman and she was going off on her own to this beach and, like, living with these ador and swimming with them in one of them. And, I mean, I do have some logistical questions.

Becca Freeman (22:08)

I do, too.

Olivia Mentor (22:08)

The whole time I just kept thinking, like, how is she not dead? Like, how is she swimming in Antarctic seas and then just sleeping?

Becca Freeman (22:16)

This is another what? This is another petty gripe I have about this book, is that sometimes I feel like I lost sight of how cold it was. And I imagine it was incredibly cold. It didn't really change seasons. It's told over a six or seven week timespan. So I lost touch of how cold it was at certain points.

Olivia Mentor (22:38)

Yes, same. I kept just thinking, like, oh, swimming with the seals. And I was like, but Antarctica?

Becca Freeman (22:45)

Yeah.

Olivia Mentor (22:45)

You know, I just kept thinking, like, how is this possible? But it does, I think, speak to, like, how interesting and well developed of a character Fen is, because obviously the whole story, you know, she's going to the beach on her own. She has this tension with her dad. But it so reminded me, as you were saying, of, like, just being a teenage girl and being like, no one gets me. I have to do this. I need my space. That I, like, didn't even consider, really until the very end that, like, something Happened that pushed her out here. Other than, like, they got into a fight, which to me is like being a teenage girl, you know, I understood.

Becca Freeman (23:21)

That something had happened. I couldn't have conceived of what it was. And I thought the theme of no matter how much you try to protect your children, no matter how much you isolate your children, bad things can still happen to them. Because it felt like Dominic had almost gone to an extreme of wanting to protect his children and to keep them out of any negative situation. And even still on this island that has, at some point, seven people on it.

Olivia Mentor (23:54)

I hadn't thought of that as a theme, but you're so right. And it is sort of reflective of. Yeah. Yes. He, like, still gets his heart broken. Oh, poor Raph. Oh, man.

Becca Freeman (24:06)

You know what?

Olivia Mentor (24:06)

There's a lot of sad things.

Becca Freeman (24:08)

I understand why it wasn't in this book. That would be a very different book. But I was really surprised that none of them were, like, super addicted to being online and having a weird correspondence with somebody somewhere else in the world. Cause I think that's the other thing that you would end up with where that's another terrible thing that could happen to your child is like, some kind of catfish situation. I don't know. Like something.

Olivia Mentor (24:33)

Well, they didn't have that much Internet. Right. I guess that was the whole point there.

Becca Freeman (24:37)

Not during the timeline of the book, but previously, it sounded like they had that whole room where they were doing video school. So it seems before the Internet, the communications got broken. It does seem like they were as connected as they wanted to be.

Olivia Mentor (24:52)

Yeah, that would have been such a good plot line because. Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit like, there's only. When the researchers were there, you know, there was only so many of them, and yet.

Becca Freeman (25:01)

And their adult children still managed to.

Olivia Mentor (25:04)

Get into entanglements, which I guess is kind of how it is as a teenager. You, like, make do with what you have. Like, I just need someone to see me and to like me. Yeah, that's so interesting. I would read that subplot for sure. So I personally love, like, super atmospheric books, and this one is certainly, like, there is a lot of nature writing in it. Like, a lot. And I was wondering if that's something that you are drawn to or have you ever found yourself in this book, like, bogged down by it at all? Like, were you a little bit like, okay, the seals, the whales, the ice, the wind. Let's move on?

Becca Freeman (25:40)

Okay. So I'm not drawn to an atmospheric book in a vacuum.

Olivia Mentor (25:43)

Okay.

Becca Freeman (25:44)

Like, there needs to Be something else. And I thought this book did such a good job with balance. Where there was a lot of it, I was invested. I found it interesting. But then every time I started to get sick of it, there was some new element introduced. Whether that was like a mystery twist, whether that was the romance. I felt like there was a really good balance. I sent you a screenshot of while I was reading it. I feel like the mystery doesn't get introduced until around page 100. And when she found her husband's belongings in that shed under the floor, I was like, oh, shit. It really did a good job. Taking me right to the edge and then pulling me back.

Olivia Mentor (26:28)

Yeah, I think, like, the mystery, the suspense building work in this book is excellent. It is like melodramatic when you think about it. Like when you put all the pieces together and like, and then they're in a boat and then a whale is on top of them and then later they have to get the whales off the beach. Like, there's so much happening. But it never felt heavy handed, like the plot or the atmospheric descriptions, which was super impressive to me. Like, I kept thinking about the layers of things going into each chapter, each page, and like, I was just, you know, blown away. I loved it.

Becca Freeman (27:02)

Yeah. Yeah, it felt really spare, all of it. Like, even the mystery felt very spare. But it hit really hard, which I. I don't know how that recipe works, but it did.

Olivia Mentor (27:13)

Yeah, I want to know. I want to. I want to know how she did it. Because it just to be like, as emotionally invested at the end of a book as you are in the plot, I think is so rare. Like, we'll talk about this. But at the end, my heart was pounding like, I was like, I couldn't even breathe because I was just thinking about this situation that Orly and Rowan were in. And like, I. Oh my gosh, I was having such a visceral reaction to reading it. But then it's also beautiful and I'm like, how do you do that? Did you read the note at the end of the book on setting from the author?

Becca Freeman (27:45)

I did. I read the note on setting. But I feel like I appreciated more in the interview that we both listened to her talking about it. I thought it was really interesting because the book is kind of loosely based off of the Svalbard seed vault. Were you ever on Svalbard Talk?

Olivia Mentor (28:03)

No, but There is a YouTuber who lives on Svalbard I've watched on and off over the years. So I am, like, more familiar with Svalbard than Probably the average person, I.

Becca Freeman (28:13)

Guess I feel like it might be the same person who's spearheading Svalbard talk, but I think it was in 2020 when we were in deep lockdown. I was really into TikTok. There were no rules around screen time because what the hell else was there to do? And I remember getting really sucked into it and just being so drawn to like the otherness of life there. And so it sounds like the author had also learned about Svalbard. The author is Australian. It felt too far away. She was like, I can't make this real. So she ended up setting it on an island that. It sounds like an all but name because the real island doesn't have the seed bank. It's based on this place called Macquarie island, which is halfway between Australia and Antarctica. And she actually had friends who were researchers there, which I thought was really interesting. And she ended up going on a research trip there with her husband and her then one year old son, which extreme parenting.

Olivia Mentor (29:17)

Yeah. And if you look at this island on a map, it's like it's out there. There's nothing nearby. You know, it's remote. So wow.

Becca Freeman (29:24)

Totally. I have to wonder if strings were pulled, like I don't know that you can just roll up to this island.

Olivia Mentor (29:29)

I was literally picturing her like Rowan, like on the, like a boat, just with one captain, just like, let's go.

Becca Freeman (29:34)

Maybe, maybe. And it seems like it is still a functional research island, but again, maybe 40 people on the island. So I thought that was very interesting, that it certainly the climate element of the island becoming uninhabitable isn't real yet. Although in Svalbard in 2016, basically the seed vault was built to withstand anything. But they hadn't thought about the permafrost melting. And so it did flood for a while, but then they were able to reinforce it and we'll see what comes next. But it should be fine. But I found that, Fingers crossed. Fascinating. I also found in that interview one thing was really interesting, that the original seed kernel of the idea for this book came from seed came from the anecdote about the dinosaur trees, which is one of the stories that Orly tells Rowan. And to me it was one of the least impactful ones. Like it was. I thought the dandelion story was really interesting. I thought the story about the plant that grows after fires was really interesting. But the dinosaur trees almost felt.

Olivia Mentor (30:45)

I barely remember this actually.

Becca Freeman (30:48)

And it's true that these dinosaur trees were thought extinct for millions of years. And they discovered Them in a very thick patch of bush in Australia. I'm using the Australian term for it and I automatically feel weird. And they discovered it and then they kept it secret from the public because they didn't want to endanger the trees. And then there were wildfires encroaching on the area where the trees were and the scientists were trying to save them and like people were hanging from helicopters. Like it was a very intense thing. So I found that fascinating that that was the seed of the book. That almost feels wholly irrelevant to the book as a whole as it stands.

Olivia Mentor (31:29)

Yeah. You would think it would be like the Australian wildfires or Svalbard.

Becca Freeman (31:36)

It kind of sounds like rolling a snowball where you start with one thing and then you kind of add and add and add. So I think it was all part of it. But I thought that was fascinating that the dinosaur tree anecdote was the very first thing according to the author.

Olivia Mentor (31:54)

I love knowing that about books.

Becca Freeman (31:55)

Me too.

Olivia Mentor (31:56)

Tiny Things. What was the seed for the book you're working on right now? I don't know if I know this.

Becca Freeman (32:01)

It's called right now. We'll see if it stays this. It's called Tis the Damn Season, which is the name of a Taylor Swift song. And the seed idea for this was the Taylor Swift song. Like just during COVID I would take myself for these long walks for my mental health. Just all around Brooklyn, no destination and it was folklore and Evermore came out which were very much walking soundtracks to me. And one day I was listening to it. It wasn't particularly new, but just Tis the Damn Season came on and I put it on repeat and I just kept thinking about who are the people in this song? Who is the couple in this song?

Olivia Mentor (32:38)

I love that. I guess I knew that, but it's nice to hear it again.

Becca Freeman (32:42)

What about yours? Can you share for little one what the seed or is it too spoilery?

Olivia Mentor (32:48)

I guess I really just started with the idea of cults and our tendency as a society to like both obsess over them in perpetuity. Like it seems like we cannot get enough of them as a society is my point. Like I'll just take like the next docu series please. Doesn't matter what it's about. And then also the fact that there are so many cult like things within society and like that interesting overlap is I guess where I started.

Becca Freeman (33:17)

Can't wait to see how it manifests.

Olivia Mentor (33:20)

We'll see.

Becca Freeman (33:21)

2026.

Olivia Mentor (33:22)

It seems so far away now that I'm like what did I start With. Okay, so back to this book, Wild Dark Shore. There are, as we've discussed, like, so many themes and topics like climate change, parenthood, the intersection of those two things. The, like, mortality, grief, a parent dying, a sibling dying. There is power dynamics in relationship in regards to, like, age. There is humans, treatment towards animals, loneliness. I'm like, ghosts, sort of.

Becca Freeman (33:57)

Oh, yeah, finish the book on. Finish the book on literally Monday. Forgot about the ghosts.

Olivia Mentor (34:04)

Well, I was, like, trying to recall all of these, and there are simply so many which. Writing them all out, you would think somehow they don't weave together in this way that works, but for me, it really did. And I'm curious if there is one theme that you really connected with.

Becca Freeman (34:21)

Can I pick two?

Olivia Mentor (34:22)

No. Yeah, you can pick two, because I.

Becca Freeman (34:25)

Think they're tied for me. I think first was the otherness of this family life. And I think I really was drawn to the parenthood plotline of Dominic. Single parenting these children, trying to do the best he could. I thought it was also really interesting, his admission of how much his wife handled the brunt of parenting his older two children and how that felt so different when Orly was solely his to raise. I thought all of that was interesting, and I just thought the otherness of them creating a fairly mundane life of cooking dinner and doing homework in this totally abnormal place was really fascinating. I also thought the theme of climate change's impact on animals was incredibly powerful. I think the part when the whales washed up on shore, oh, my gosh. And they tried to save them, was absolutely gutting. I think kind of the slow, like, getting attached to the seal colonies and the penguin colonies almost as their own characters. And then by the end, there's no beach left. It's like, where have the penguins gone? Like, just showing the erosion of these animal climates. It just felt so real.

Olivia Mentor (35:50)

Yeah. It made the world seem so beautiful, you know? And we know the world is beautiful, but it's like this part of the world you don't think about. You certainly don't think about being affected by anything, and you don't think about the creatures that live there that are affected by anything. And it just. Oh, it made my heart break just for. For everything.

Becca Freeman (36:10)

I want to ask the same question back to you, but there was also. I wouldn't call this a theme, but there was also, like, one minor thing that I hadn't seen anywhere else that I also felt was really impactful. So the idea of them choosing which seeds to save when it becomes clear that they can't save them all And Hank, terrible man. The idea of interdependence on other plants where it's like, you can't grow some plants without others. I thought it was really interesting in any kind of apocalyptic thing. I've never seen that addressed. And I was like, oh, wow. You have to also save some of these maybe completely useless plants because of their interdependence with these highly useful plants. And I thought that was so fascinating.

Olivia Mentor (36:50)

Yeah. It's funny because I didn't reread it for this and I read it maybe two months, three months ago at this point. And so I remember while reading, thinking, like, I am learning so much now, Dante. Facts are out of my head. But, like, I remember thinking, like, I'm going to use this cool plant fact. And maybe it was the dandelion story that kind of rang a bell for me in, like, a. At a party. Like, I'm gonna pull this one up. But, yeah, I'm very fun at parties, clearly. But I know what you mean. Like, it was just. I learned a lot.

Becca Freeman (37:21)

Tell me what themes have stuck with you two months later? And, you know, even that you're like, I wanna make this book a book club pick.

Olivia Mentor (37:30)

Yeah. I mean, this is one of my favorite books I've ever read. I just loved it. And I think what I was talking about a minute ago about how heartbreakingly book beautiful it all was is what stuck out to me. And I think there is this line. I couldn't find it now, but there is this line towards the end of the book about how, like, essentially the way to respond to, like, things falling apart isn't to scale down your feeling towards other people and things, isn't to take a step back, isn't to kind of shrink, like, love down, but to do the opposite. And I thought that was really just moving. And I thought the author managed to talk about that without it seeming trite or, like, cheesy. And I don't really know. I don't know how, but, like, it just worked. It just worked. There was so much of it, though, that I thought was great.

Becca Freeman (38:22)

Well, let's take another quick ad break and then let's get back to our discussion of this book.

Olivia Mentor (38:31)

This episode is sponsored by wayfair. As Becca and I literally cannot stop talking about. The weather is just pristine lately. All I want to do is sit outside. And because of that, I am also increasingly aware of all the things that need to happen so that the outdoor areas of our house are ready for all the guests and parties and outdoor dinners and even just me Sitting outside, working, I guess, writing outdoors. And there is no better place than Wayfair to shop for all of these essentials, from furniture to lighting and more.

Becca Freeman (39:05)

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Olivia Mentor (39:29)

I am definitely going to go search on Wayfair for some more outdoor lighting after we're done recording this because I am so ready for dinners in the garden this spring and summer. And, you know, typically being able to see at least some of your food while you eat is important. So Wayfair makes it so easy to tackle your summer home goals with endless inspiration for every space and budget, including the outdoors. Shop, a huge selection of outdoor furniture online this summer. Get outside with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home so, moving on to towards the end of this book, which to me I was just like, I'm locked in. I need to know what is happening. Were there twists towards the end of the book that really just shook you or worked for you or didn't work for you? Because I think there are a lot.

Becca Freeman (40:31)

Kind of, as I said, I'm a passenger princess when it comes to reading. I am not doing a lot of guessing. I am along for the ride, waiting for it to unfold. So, no, I guess none of the twists, none of them whatsoever, frankly, didn't even really know there was going to be a mystery when I started reading the book. Okay. I definitely thought that Dominic killed the husband.

Olivia Mentor (40:53)

Me too.

Becca Freeman (40:54)

I don't know that him keeping him in that room off the seed vault 100% worked for me. And again, there's no electricity. Everything's not working. Like, how is the heating and cooling working for this man? Like, I just had a lot of logistical questions that I was like, I'm very unsure how you have made it. And it also sounded like the seed vault was like a day's trek away. So I'm like, how is somebody feeding him, like, dealing with him on a regular enough basis? I don't know. I don't know that that totally worked for me. It didn't ruin Anything for me. But that reveal. I was like, oh, wow, you didn't kill him. Which I suppose needed to happen for the romance. Maybe I cannot be with my husband's killer. I don't know. It was a terrible husband. Maybe she could.

Olivia Mentor (41:45)

It was horrible.

Becca Freeman (41:46)

But, yeah, logistically, him being in that room, I was very head scratchy. But I thought the reveal of him and Fen being in a relationship and her thinking she was pregnant, I was like, oh, my God, this is wild. This ties in so perfectly. Oh, my. I never saw this coming. This totally makes her sleeping on the beach make sense. And that it was partially her shame over it and thinking her dad was angry at her and them not being able to communicate. I was like, oh, my gosh. Yes, this came together perfectly.

Olivia Mentor (42:19)

Yeah, I found it very satisfying. Like, it just checked all the boxes for, like, tying it together for me. For me, it kind of worked, keeping him in the seed vault because I think I had resigned myself to the fact that Dominic killed him or someone killed him because they were making him seem so terrible. I was like, clearly, this guy, they're just. They're making you understand why he had to die. You know, not that murder is ever, you know, excusable, but it all worked for me, really. Shockingly, actually. Maybe the only thing that didn't. Well, it's not that it didn't work for me, but let's just talk about, you know, the final big twist, if you will, which, spoiler alert, it has already been spoiled for you, but this is the main one, which is that Rowan dies. And I'm wondering how you felt about that, because I have thoughts, so I would like to know yours also. Did you cry for the Further readers?

Becca Freeman (43:14)

Absolutely. How could you even doubt me? Of course I cried.

Olivia Mentor (43:19)

I don't know.

Becca Freeman (43:19)

Of course I cried. I'm not an easy crier in real life, but when it comes to books, TV or movies, I am a crybaby.

Olivia Mentor (43:27)

So, yeah, it was a tear jerk.

Becca Freeman (43:28)

Certainly cried was reading that, like, last Orly chapter through. Just so many tears in my eyes. Somebody needed to die. And I would have been so upset if it was Orly. I would have been so upset if it was Orly. I would have been so upset if it was both of them. But, like, somebody needed to die or else. I don't think the ending would have worked.

Olivia Mentor (43:52)

You think?

Becca Freeman (43:53)

I guess I do.

Olivia Mentor (43:53)

I guess they would have just been like. And then we all sailed off together. Yeah. I did not expect her to die, though. I really didn't. Certainly didn't expect Orly to die. I would have thrown the book into the river if that was the case.

Becca Freeman (44:07)

You know what I kind of saw being an ending at one point was when they were trying to save the whales. I kind of was picturing that maybe they, like, didn't save any of the seeds. And so it was like they saved these two whales, but all of the scenes somehow spoiled, and so they got picked up. And it was like, we didn't do the one thing we were supposed to do, but we saved these two whales, which was important to us. And does the life of humanity equal the life of these two whales? I could kind of see that being a very different ending for it, but in the direction it went after the discovery that Hank was in the hole. And I don't know. Yeah, I do feel like somebody needed to die.

Olivia Mentor (44:52)

Speaking of death, I was convinced the whales were gonna die. I was like, same. This is terrible. My soul is dying. I feel so attached to these people. I mean, see these whales? I'm calling them people. I think I cried during that scene too, because I was so, like, imagining this feeling of, like, this huge task that you can never complete. You have to just look into their giant eye because you can't see both of them at once. You know, it's a one eye and just. Oh, the sadness, the sadness. But then they did, and it was like, oh, I was cheering. It was just so wonderful. But, yeah, maybe that distracted me from the fact that someone else had to die.

Becca Freeman (45:31)

It could have been interesting if Orly died, I would have been pissed. Like, it wouldn't have tested well with me, but that could have been really interesting, where him and Rowan have this romance, but his son has died in the process. And, like, that will never change.

Olivia Mentor (45:49)

I think what was hard for me about the ending was that Rowan just was so sad. Like, she's such a sad character in so many ways. Like, she's had so much loss that, like, it just was, like, no, like, let her have. Yeah, a happy ending.

Becca Freeman (46:06)

That's why you gotta read romance. You're guaranteed you're happily ever after. And all these other genres out here.

Olivia Mentor (46:11)

Not with this one, you're not. But the way she, like, saved Orly and she was like, I love you. That's the part that I was, like, a mess. I was just, like, tears rolling down my face.

Becca Freeman (46:22)

Yeah.

Olivia Mentor (46:23)

I don't know. I'd be interesting, like, if she was like, I have an alternative ending. She's such a good writer that I think she could have written it and been just as Good. Someone didn't die. That's my opinion. I don't know. But I still think it's great the way it is. It's just. I wanted Rowan to live.

Becca Freeman (46:38)

I know, but it felt. It felt so narratively satisfying.

Olivia Mentor (46:44)

Really?

Becca Freeman (46:45)

Yeah. Like, they start as a unit of four. They ended as a unit of four, but it's completely different.

Olivia Mentor (46:51)

It's true. And she's, like, changed all of them.

Becca Freeman (46:53)

Yeah.

Olivia Mentor (46:54)

Yeah. This is something I'm going to pose to the listeners. I'm really. I want to know where people net out on this.

Becca Freeman (47:00)

Do you have any other thoughts on this book? Or are you going to read Migrations or Once a Rewolf? Yes.

Olivia Mentor (47:05)

Yeah, I am, for sure. I think the thing I hear most often is that Migrations is the best. Okay, so I'll report back. I'm gonna savor it, though. She's. I just love her. Would you read her other books?

Becca Freeman (47:19)

Olivia? I cannot even fathom putting another book on my tbr. Like, the way that I have.

Olivia Mentor (47:26)

Me either.

Becca Freeman (47:27)

And yet, like, just the teetering piles of books and the dozens of books on my Kindle that I have said to myself, yes, I'd like to read that.

Olivia Mentor (47:37)

Like, I get it. I get it. I'll let you know how it is. And if you have to make room, please. Well, let's take one more ad break, and then we'll get into some ed matter. This episode is sponsored by Masterclass. So, before I taught that writing workshop for teenage girls last month, I was feeling really nervous about teaching in general. So I hopped on Masterclass and I pressed play on one of the writing classes that they offer, specifically the lessons on short stories with Joyce Carol Oates. And I cannot tell you how inspired I felt afterwards, not only as a temporary teacher, but also as a writer, just in general. And the class inspired me to buy Virginia Woolf's A Writer's Diary. I learned so much about Joyce Carol Oates process, and I just felt so inspired to think about writing and specifically writing short stories differently than I had in the past. And I think about it all the time now. And I actually found myself thinking about my mom a lot while taking the class because she is always talking about how she would love to write a novel or story, but doesn't know exactly where to start. So I thought, you know, I think Masterclass might be a very good Mother's Day gift for her.

Becca Freeman (48:54)

I really do think that Masterclass is such a perfect gift if there's someone in your life that's always talking about how they want to get into to painting or writing a novel or making a perfect croissant. Literally anything you could want to learn, there is a class that can help them to do it. With Masterclass, you can learn from the best of the best to become your best. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow. With over 200 of the world's best. For just $10 a month billed annually, a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every single instructor. It's an amazing deal, and you can access Masterclass on your phone, computer, smart tv, or even an audio mode to listen to it like a podcast.

Olivia Mentor (49:40)

Consider Masterclass. If you're a mom or another important mother figure in your life this Mother's Day, whether you're showing love to your parents, your friends, yourself, nothing compares to a gift that can change your life for the better. Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com BoP see MasterClass's latest deal at least 15% off@masterclass.com BoP masterclass.com BoP.

Becca Freeman (50:16)

Olivia, what are you obsessed with?

Olivia Mentor (50:18)

Daffodils.

Becca Freeman (50:20)

Lovely. Do you have any in your yard?

Olivia Mentor (50:22)

We do. We have some. All different colors and varieties. I found one, like a white one in the front yard that has, like, an orange scent, which I really like. I have it in my window now.

Becca Freeman (50:32)

Beautiful.

Olivia Mentor (50:32)

I just think, God, daffodils are great. You know, they come back every year. They're beautiful. Nature for real, like, it's just. It's just happiness. It's just happiness. There's nothing happier than a daffodil. It even looks happy. Like, it's like little, you know, just looks ready to greet the day. What are you obsessed with?

Becca Freeman (50:53)

So something slightly less natural. Are you aware of Wegman's cannoli chips and dip?

Olivia Mentor (51:02)

Well, I think so, because I read this in the outline and I thought, sounds familiar to me.

Becca Freeman (51:08)

So I became aware of this over the holidays. We were doing Secret Santa, and my friend and I were tasked with bringing dessert, and we went to Wegmans, and we were just kind of like, going buck wild in the dessert section, and they had a big tray of this cannoli chips and dip. And so basically what it is is it's the inside of a cannoli, like the marscapone filling with chocolate chips in it. And the chips are like these little. They look like wheat Thins, kind of these little triangles of cannoli shell dusted with powdered sugar. And you, like, dip it in the Filling like a chip and dip. It's so good. I have to imagine it's been mentioned in seven years of this podcast. But I love cannolis, so the other week, I've basically stopped going to the grocery store. I only do Instacart now. That's not true. If I need, like, something randomly, I'll go to the grocery store. But for my big shop, I do Instacart, and I get it from Wegmans. And they have individual sizes of these. Like, it's like the size of, like, a yogurt parfait cup with, like, a little thing of dip and then some chips. Olivia Heaven.

Olivia Mentor (52:11)

Look, I do love dipping things and to dip, so I'm not a cannoli person at all, but I think that the change in structure would appeal to me.

Becca Freeman (52:21)

Next time you come visit, I'll stock up. You could have your own individual one.

Olivia Mentor (52:26)

I like that because, like, the cylinder, I just don't like, you know. No, I'm not.

Becca Freeman (52:32)

You don't have to.

Olivia Mentor (52:33)

Anyway, I know there's a new world now, so the things that nature can't.

Becca Freeman (52:38)

Do, that Wegmans can.

Olivia Mentor (52:39)

It's as beautiful as a daffodil in its own way. Well, what are you reading? What have you read?

Becca Freeman (52:45)

Okay, so I finished this book, obviously, and then I finished the audiobook I was talking about a couple of weeks ago called Anatomy of A Breakthrough by Adam Altered. And this one is about the science of getting stuck. And so it's part psychology research about getting stuck and unstuck, and then a lot of case studies from every different area. So it does talk a lot about writing, but it also talks about sports, it talks about business. So kind of anything you can get stuck in. And. Okay, here's where I net it out. I think the first section, not the first chapter, but the first section, which is about the science of getting stuck, should be required reading for literally anyone pursuing any project.

Olivia Mentor (53:31)

Wow.

Becca Freeman (53:32)

So everyone time praise, like, and especially creatives, because I think sometimes we approach creativity with, like, this mysticism. And there were some things in there that just totally blew my brain wide open. Okay, so then the rest of the book, there's three other sections on head, heart, and habits. And it was hit and miss. Like, no one section was all good or all bad for me. And I think that's kind of natural because of the just scope of scenarios that the author was addressing. But within it, I found tidbits of things that were really useful to me. So I don't know if that's helpful. To, like, be like, please get this book or audiobook to definitively read the first section and then the rest. I don't care if you read or not. Oh, my gosh. I really do. I think this should be required reading for creatives.

Olivia Mentor (54:26)

I'm still gonna listen to the first half at least. I wanna get my next manicure. I think I'm gonna listen to that.

Becca Freeman (54:30)

Great. Did you read anything?

Olivia Mentor (54:33)

I didn't. It's only been, like, four days since we last recorded. I'm in progress with some stuff, but nothing new to report.

Becca Freeman (54:40)

Okay. But do you know what we do have is a May book club pick announcement. So I'm a little scared about this. I'm pretty excited about this, too. We are going to read Audition by Katie Kitamura. So this is a very conceptual literary novel. That said, it's 208 pages, very easy writing to read. It's about a woman who's an actress. And in the very first scene, she's meeting this man who's much younger than her for lunch. And it's very unclear what their relationship is to each other. Are they lovers? Is it her son? Is it a work contact? Like, what is the relationship between these two people? And then it kind of goes from there. This book has some of the most interesting themes around performing and how other people perceive us, both the main character, as an actress, but also in our regular lives. So how we perform in the role of wife, mother, woman. Both the author and the main character are people of color. And so it is really fascinating. I'm very excited to hear what all of you think. It was a book that I. Once I started reading, I kept wanting to go back to. I was like, what happens? What's going to happen? I was very compelled by it.

Olivia Mentor (56:02)

I'm very excited to read this one. I also know that there's one person in the Facebook group at least, who said that they would love us to pick this. So this one's for you, whoever you are. I hope you enjoy it.

Becca Freeman (56:15)

I'm very excited. I feel like we've been on a very, like, literary bender. So maybe we owe a fun one after this or. Yeah, we always do our listener pick.

Olivia Mentor (56:26)

Oh, yeah.

Becca Freeman (56:27)

True Book Club in July. So we'll put that up at the beginning of June to pick what it is. But you get some say in this coming up real quick.

Olivia Mentor (56:34)

Well, I'm looking forward to all of. All of the above. And if you want to talk to us about Wild Dark Shore or anything in life, you can join us in the Facebook group under Baton Paper Podcast, or in our Geneva group, which is like a giant chat room with different specific rooms within the chat room that's also under Bound on Paper Podcast. We're on Instagram @batonpaper podcast, and I am on Substack and Instagram at Olivia.

Becca Freeman (57:01)

Mentor, and I am on Instagram at Becca M. Freeman, and my newsletter is at Becca Freeman, no M at substack. Com.

Olivia Mentor (57:10)

Bye, everyone. Bye.