258. Baking it Down - Speaking For Clients, Not As

Summary

Podcast Summary: Baking it Down with Sugar Cookie Marketing 🍪

Episode 258: Speaking For Clients, Not As
Hosts: Heather & Corrie Miracle
Date: April 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Heather and Corrie focus on a vital mindset shift for bakery owners and creative entrepreneurs: “thinking for your clients versus thinking as your clients.” They break down how self-limiting beliefs and projecting your own preferences or fears onto potential customers can unintentionally sabotage your business growth. With relatable stories, actionable tips, and their signature lighthearted banter, the twins uncover five common ways bakers "think for" clients (and how to flip the script).

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Symbiosis of Platforms & Community (00:49)

• SCM Facebook Group, Podcast, and Newsletter: Heather emphasizes the interconnectedness of the group, podcast, and newsletter: “What's said in the group is brought to the podcast. What's said on the podcast is sent in the newsletter. What's said in the newsletters brought back to the group." (01:31)
• Engagement across all platforms allows bakers to maximize learning, participation, and fun.

2. The Core Topic: Thinking For Your Customers vs. As Your Customers (04:12)

• Where This Comes From: Corrie raises the issue after noticing that struggling marketers also shy away from Instagram collabs—potentially due to self-protective mindsets.
• The Trap: Many cottage bakers started because they wouldn’t pay premium prices; therefore, they assume no one else would, self-sabotaging their pricing and business boundaries.

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The Five Forms of “Thinking For” Your Clients

1. Wallet Watching (08:21)

• Definition: Projecting your own pricing hesitations onto potential clients—assuming they're too broke or unwilling to pay what you charge, leading to underpricing or apologetic sales interactions.
• Quote:
  “The cheapest person in the world is a cookie baker. Because they're so cheap, they wouldn't have paid it. That's why they learned how to do it.” – Heather (08:21)
• Insights:
  • Confident pricing signals value; apologizing for prices or offering discounts before a client objects erodes confidence and perceived value (the "JCPenney Effect").
  • Practical Tip: Use order forms with upfront pricing to avoid awkward “sticker shock” conversations:
    "If someone goes around the form, I always blame the event budget. Not the client. I say, let me know if this price fits the event budget—not let me know if you're broke." – Corrie (14:47)

2. Boredom Betting (17:48)

• Definition: Fear that customers will become bored with a narrow menu, prompting unnecessary expansion and offering excess choices.
• Insight:
  • Too many options overwhelm buyers and shrink sales (“analysis paralysis”).
  • Heather cites fast food chains: “Wendy's when it started had five options…” which simplified decision-making and increased customer satisfaction (19:12).
  • Advice: Remove your five lowest-selling offerings first before overhauling your menu entirely; most people want reliable favorites, not endless choice.

3. Social Sabotage (25:10)

• Definition: Avoiding certain marketing channels because you don't personally use or buy from them—assuming, for instance, that “my clients aren’t on Instagram.”
• Quote:
  “You're thinking a lot for your clients there... Yesterday I got a message: Corey, how much do you charge for a dozen cookies?… If I wasn't there, I would never have gotten that message.” – Corrie (25:41)
• Takeaway:
  • Different clients use different platforms; denying yourself new leads by projecting your own biases is a missed opportunity.
  • Even if Facebook is your main source, Instagram and other platforms are secondary lead sources you shouldn’t ignore.

4. Policy Policing (32:21)

• Definition: Unwillingness to enforce your business policies because you worry clients will see you as mean, and preemptively bending rules to avoid confrontation.
• Anecdote:
  • “If you're bending policies before the client asks, you are thinking for your client, not as your client.” – Heather (32:49)
  • Setting and upholding boundaries trains clients (like “litter box training” a kitten: 34:08). If boundaries are late or inconsistent, “you create your own nightmare client.”
• Tip: If enforcing a policy feels hard, frame it as making a one-time exception, or blame your "system," not the client.

5. Follow-Up Fear (46:09)

• Definition: Avoiding follow-ups with potential clients out of fear that you’ll “annoy” them—assuming you’d be annoyed in their shoes.
• Insight:
  • “The biggest thing I learned in car sales is nobody comes to the car dealership for friends. They're literally there for four wheels in a cabin.” – Corrie (46:39)
  • People are busy; polite, systematic follow-up shows professionalism and often translates to more closed sales.
  • Use deadlines and clear communication: “Hey, I'm giving you till 5pm. If I don't hear back, I hope we can work together in the future.” (48:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Pricing and Value:
  “Price isn't relative, but value is perception... We can create value, but we can also snatch it away by how we talk about our own prices.” – Heather (10:18–10:21)
• On Menu Paralysis:
  “We are a loss averse before we want to acquire. Meaning we'd rather not lose something than we'd rather gain something.” – Heather (17:48)
• On Boundaries:
  “You let them become the nightmare... The best gift for people is a boundary—those policies.” – Heather & Corrie (35:17–35:47)
• On Social Media Hesitation:
  “If you put the time and effort to grow your Instagram account, engage with your local followers, you are going to start to see an uptick in local followers and then inquiries coming through your DMs.” – Corrie (27:26)
• On Closing Sales:
  “A closed door is a great answer because it’s closed... The people who follow up make the most sales. I promise you that. And they might be annoying, but they’re getting the nos and they’re moving.” – Corrie (47:42)

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Actionable Tips Highlighted

• Raise Prices Confidently:
  Don’t apologize or over-explain price increases; simply state the new rates confidently.
• Streamline Menus:
  Remove lowest-performing products and focus on bestsellers to decrease client overwhelm and increase sales.
• Use All Social Handles:
  Don’t disregard platforms just because you don’t personally prefer them—your audience may be there.
• Implement Systems for Policies:
  Use order forms and “event budgets” to shift difficult client conversations away from personal confrontation.
• Follow Up Professionally:
  Set clear deadlines and follow up with potential clients. Don’t let the fear of “being annoying” cost you sales.

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Timestamp Highlights of Key Segments

• Circle of Group/Podcast/Newsletter (Intro): 00:49–01:55
• Core Topic Introduction: 04:12–06:53
• Wallet Watching & Pricing Mindset: 08:21–15:00
• Boredom Betting & Menus: 17:48–25:08
• Social Channel Misjudgment: 25:10–32:21
• Policy Policing & Boundaries: 32:21–43:30
• Follow-Up Fear & Closing Skills: 46:09–51:10

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Listener Q&A & Community Moments

• Licensing Character Cookies: (72:58–77:55) – Most bakers are not legally licensed for characters like Bluey, Pooh, or K-pop; it’s a gray area and a personal risk.
• Getting Ghosted: (57:18–64:19) – Venting about client ghosting and ideas for incentivizing prompt payment (first-time order discounts with time limits).
• Tasting as a Sales Tool: (81:13–82:29) – Corrie suggests “cookie closet cleanouts” or local giveaways as a way to get your premium product into future clients’ hands.
• Newbie Success Testimonial: (78:33–80:25) – A listener’s journey from first cookie to bustling order book, attributed to implementing SCM podcast tips.

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Hosts’ Signature Tone

Heather and Corrie keep the conversation upbeat, lively, and sprinkled with real-world stories, wordplay (e.g., “butt guster,” “boondogie”), and humor (“Are you broken? Click here!”). Even tough topics like boundaries and pricing are delivered with warmth, encouragement, and a touch of self-deprecation. Relationships—as twins, bakers, and coaches—shine through, making business advice feel both accessible and fun.

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Final Key Takeaways

• Don’t limit your bakery business by projecting your own biases and fears onto your customers!
• Think as your customer (open, curious, solution-oriented), not for them (fearful, limiting, apologetic).
• Take confident action: enforce boundaries, price for profit, market widely, simplify offerings, and always follow up.
• Listen for client signals—don’t anticipate rejection before it happens.
• Implement SCM’s advice, but adapt it for your unique context, peeling back your own “onion layers” as you grow.

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[For more actionable tips and donut-level puns, tune in to the next episode or join the Sugar Cookie Marketing community!]

Transcript

[Heather]

Corey, it is. It is a rainy Tuesday here in West Virginia.

[Corey]

It is a overcast day today here in Northern Virginia.

[Heather]

Our older sister to West Virginia. Turns out. I didn't realize this, but West Virginians are constantly comparing themselves to Virginians. And they don't call themselves West Virginia, they call themselves Best Virginia. But I wanted to say, oh, I don't think Virginia's thinking about you at all.

[Corey]

I just think of that as our little part of our leg towards the West.

[Heather]

Think like when you want to leave Nova and see a mountain, that's really

[Corey]

against you West Virginians. Now my sister is one, so I can poke a little bit more fun because I have a foot in the door, per se,

[Heather]

because we didn't think about

[Corey]

West Virginia. You are wild and you are wonderful. Welcome to the Baking It Down With Sugar Cookie Marketing podcast. If you're tuning in in for the first time, we're actually a group on Facebook that has a podcast, not the other way around. If you're looking to grow your bakery business with tips, trips, hot marketing, know hows and nuggets and what's trending, go join the Sugar Cookie Marketing group on Facebook. This is just a way for you to have marketing in your ear hole during the week while you're busy baking because the marketing works so well that you learned in the group.

[Heather]

I feel like they all have a nice symbiosis.

[Corey]

It is a circle of life. You can't have one without the other. Similar to Virginia and West Virginia.

[Heather]

We need us both wild and wonderful and crowded. I feel like when people say, oh, I didn't know this was happening or I didn't know this was coming or what is this? It's because you're missing one of the symbiotic pieces. So what's said in the group is brought to the podcast. What's said on the podcast is sent in the newsletter. What's said in the newsletters brought back to the group. So it's kind of a. If you had all three pieces and you like the Facebook page, you probably wouldn't miss too much.

[Corey]

You and you'd have a giggle because I've been just posting some just fantastic reels.

[Heather]

Give me time. Not even a little bit of a gaggle. I'll say gaggle territory. We've gotten to.

[Corey]

Is it butt guster or a gut buster?

[Heather]

I'll be saying that for the rest of my life. It's a real butt guster. A butt guster. Boondogie it is April 28th. If you're. If you're listening to this in the future. Hello. From the past. But we wanted to talk specifically about a few things. Before I jump into that, just a couple reminders. The Main Street May cookie collab is the best collab if you want corporate orders. So if you say in 2026, one of my goals was corporate orders. Don't sleep on the Main Street May collab. It's the second to the last Friday of this month. We have a 3D printing boot camp coming up. I'll talk about that in a second. And Corey just sent me the materials for the Cher cookie class kit.

[Corey]

Yeah, it's super trendy right now. Cherries. Cherries and bows are super in. So I said that would be a fun theme to do. And I have decided the next cookie class kit will be Summerween, which has

[Heather]

gone another trendy one.

[Corey]

Yeah. More popular over these years and it continues to grow.

[Heather]

I frankly almost. I know we've almost sold out of our cookie class in July, but I wish we were doing Summerween.

[Corey]

I wish we were as well. But we will be doing the fruits and frosting class, which is actually adorable.

[Heather]

It is very cute. The quote this week, to take into your week on this rainy Tuesday and Overcast Tuesday is the most important thing in communication is hearing what isn't said. And that's by Peter Drucker.

[Corey]

Love that, Pete. Pete. That is a good one.

[Heather]

A little deviation from what we said last week. We were supposed to interview Primera, but I think something came up on her end. So we'll see if we can get her back on the docket. But congratulations, you guys are stuck with us today. However, thank you so much. I've gotten a bunch. We've got almost 10 bakers who want to be on the podcast.

[Corey]

I cannot literally wait.

[Heather]

So I will be reaching out to you guys. That will take us through the end of the year unless we do twofers. If you guys eat up the one. The first one.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Maybe we could do two a month. I don't know. We'll see what we're gonna do.

[Corey]

That would be fun. That would be. It would be fun. I love to hear what other people have to say. I'm tired of hearing what Heather has to say.

[Heather]

She's running out of things to say.

[Corey]

Heather will repeat things if she must.

[Heather]

Running out of words. So jumping into this. Corey is kind of spearheaded this one. She said, thinking for your customers versus thinking as your customers. And this actually came from a question you asked. The other. A little backstory. Little, little backstory. The cookie Collabs are a great aspect of marketing because it has two home runs. One, you get the engagement from other bakers. But two, you also get this hyperlocal content. For example, the Main Street May content is featuring a hyper, hyper hypo local business. A hyper local business. That said, it feels like Instagram has not only depreciated how many hashtags you can use per post, but also how effective it is to search them. So every collab gets increasingly harder for the bakers, the other bakers who participated. So Corey wanted to do some market research and asked how many members in the sugar cookie marketing group have partaken in a collab.

[Corey]

Yeah, and the group's been around. We've been doing collabs. What do you want to say? 4 years? 4ish years?

[Heather]

I think. So we didn't do it right when

[Corey]

we started and then someone said this would be a great idea.

[Heather]

Four years.

[Corey]

We took about a year break in there because the numbers were dropping off of participants and people were like, bring it back, bring it back. So we've been very consistent this year with them. What I am seeing is a lot of people said the same people who, who say I'm struggling with marketing and getting clients are also not participating in the Instagram collabs. I will say the Instagram cookie collabs are not going to make you a millionaire or a billionaire. They might not even make you a thousand there. But what they are going to do is give you the boost in social media. If we bring it back a little ways, it it's the same mindset I had when I first started my bakery business where I thought for my customers instead of thinking as my customers. Your customers are not you. And most of us ended up starting a cookie bakery business because we didn't want to pay the high prices to another cookie baker because we're cheap. And we said I can do that myself and we're crafty and we did that. So when you think for your customers, you are actually limiting yourself because you are not your customer. You are not the person who's going to whip out the wallet and give 60 to $70 for 12 singular cookies. So that's what I say. We're self sabotaging because we think for our customers and we have all been here in a certain amount of degree, probably a lot more when we were first starting out and then we get our feelings hurt a little bit, maybe a few ghosts, a few no shows, and then we start learning the ropes and getting a little bit more confident. With both ourselves as a bakery and ourselves as a baker, with our talents and our, you know, time in knowing our worth. And that's what I wanted to dive in today is don't think for your customers. Think as your customers.

[Heather]

I think I like to read psychology, and I'm. My working theory is that most of our personalities are coming from a place of fear, and that is fear of rejection. So we do very odd things to get around that fear, to get in front of that fear, or to not face that fear. Because rejection hurts so bad, Right? Sure. And I think kind of a culprit of thinking for your customers is thinking how your customers are going to reject you. So trying to get in front of that rejection. So I know you have one of these common buzzword price objections. So we often think lower the price. Right. Because I don't want to hear the word, you're too expensive. I don't want to buy from you. Which I think our brain translates is, I don't like you.

[Corey]

Instead. Yeah. Instead of someone saying, you don't fit in my budget, you hear, you're not worth my money.

[Heather]

Yes. And so we do really odd things inside. Our brain internally is telling us this is the exactly perfect thing to do. You genius. Outside, everyone's like, huh, that's kind of weird. That's a little weird thing that you did right there. And for some reason, you think it's right. When I think in the. The blind spot is that it's actually kind of not working in your favor, although it feels like it is.

[Corey]

Yes. And that's because we're thinking for our clients. We. We. Honestly, if you could imagine a room, you've just put two people in the room. You put yourself in that one client, and you're like, the client's trying to tell you, like, you just don't fit in my budget. But I love you. And you're like, baby girl, baby girl, I'm lowering my price.

[Heather]

So Goy's first one is wallet watching. And here's my thing. The cheapest person in the world is. Is a cookie baker. Because they're so cheap, they wouldn't have paid it. That's why they learned how to do it right. Joking. It's like a joke. But the thinking your customers won't pay your prices because you wouldn't pay them leads to very weird business practices. That means you either lowering your price or you are, you know, angry at other bakers who charge less than you because you don't want the objection that your price is the price Right. Your price is the time and the cost and ingredients. So what we do is we do these other things that allow us not to raise the price or to be really upset that we have to have this price. Yeah.

[Corey]

We're thinking on behalf of our customers. And you're like, well, no, it benefits my customers. They can afford me. If we. I mean, how they like to call it, peel back the onion layers, is it because that you think it's fair for them to pay a cheaper price, or you're worried that maybe you're not worth it and they're not willing to pay the higher price? And only you will know that.

[Heather]

I had an exterminator come to the door and pitch the exterminator prices, right? And then I also had to get an oil change. And they sent two recommended services, which is like cleaning out the sparks plugs or something. Both of the salespeople were like, oh, it's. I. I wouldn't pay it. So I was like, oh, my goodness. You wouldn't pay it? Well, I'm not going to pay it if the guy that's on the team of charging me wouldn't pay it. So almost like, because they weren't confident the pricing, and they probably just said, I wouldn't waste my money. I don't think that they were shy or anything. But when the baker's like, oh, I know this is a little expensive, like, it makes me think, like, oh, you think it's too expensive? So why. Yeah. Now, when you go somewhere, let's say go to a Range Rover dealership, and they're like, how could you not spend this? This is the price of luxury, you poor popper. Then I'd be like, well, now I want to. Because if I spend it, it'll make me feel like I got something of value. Value. Remember said price isn't relative, but value is perception.

[Corey]

It is.

[Heather]

It is.

[Corey]

It's so subjective, right?

[Heather]

So we can create value, but we can also snatch it away by how we talk about our own prices. So if you're very trigger shy on quotes and you're very like, I know, you know, I know it's expensive, but. Or, hey, you know, we can work out, like. Or maybe I can wiggle. It makes me like, well, you don't think this is worth what you asked? It's the JCPenney effect, where if everything is always discounted, was it ever the price to begin with?

[Corey]

Yeah, the Hobby lobby, we talked about it last week. If it's always 50% off, it's only 30% off.

[Heather]

But we're not looking at. Maybe the price is actually the same. Maybe they raised the price and then are lower.

[Corey]

Yeah, it's not going to take a loss. They might take less of a profit.

[Heather]

But I'm saying they. You can fudge numbers so that 50% and 30%, if the base price shifts is the actually same discount. However, our brains perceive that 50%. I don't know why the camera's not focusing as just look at me as a blur. We, our brains perceive that 50% is more than 30%. That's exactly what we should think. That's what it is. Yeah, but that was all relative. Now people who go to Hobby Lobby, even if the price out the door is the same, they feel like they got less of a deal because 50% was more than 30%. That's only 30% off.

[Corey]

Yeah, but if, and that goes into thing, if you think that you're priced too high and that your customers won't pay that price, so you lower your pricing to fit what you think the customers will pay, there's only one person getting robbed here, and that is you, the baker and your business.

[Heather]

When bakers, you know, raising your prices to increase profit or raising your prices because costs increase. Natural side of business. Also great strategy. Right? We shouldn't, if we can. If the market sustains charging more and charging more is great. Or then you work at the strategy of scale. Charge less, make more. Right. Whatever you want your business to be. When bakers say, I need to raise my prices so how should I post that announcement? I'm like, you're trying to convince, you're trying to convince people that this was necessary. Like, that you had to do this versus I don't think you go to Hermes, Hermes. And they're like, well, the reason why

[Corey]

this one's $10,000 is because.

[Heather]

But you know, the cost of the alligator leather, whatever it is, they're like, the price is the price. You either want it or you don't. But we know you do, because everybody does. Like, that level of confidence makes me want it even more. I don't want one, but if someone handed me one, I'm not gonna throw it away. I'm gonna be prancing around with it. So when the bakers are like, hey, I need to raise my prices and here's the 10 reasons why I'm telling you so you don't reject my price, I think it conveys a little bit of lack of confidence in the fact that the price needed to be raised. Sure. Yeah.

[Corey]

It's it's not a. The person buying the cookies from you, unlike yourself, doesn't care how the cookies are made because that's why they didn't become a baker and that's why they're trying to hire you. You became a baker because you looked at the price of someone. So that's a lot. That's. That's literally what happened to me. Me and Heather bought custom cookies for a marketing client of ours.

[Heather]

When I went to pick them up,

[Corey]

I said, wow, that was pricey. I think I could maybe do that myself. And because I'm cheap, I've become a baker. But now I still have that mindset and I'm putting it on people who've never asked to have that put on them. And it's oozing out in different ways.

[Heather]

So one ooze is the trigger shy. I'm sorry I had to raise my prices. The second ooze, specifically of wallet watching is like, and it's so funny. I, maybe I'm not involved in enough hobbies, but it's baking specific that I see those posts like, and if you're a client and you come to me and you say this and you're like, it's almost like you're getting in a marital argument with clients who have a natural response to, you know, that's a little expensive, you're like, and don't come. My time is my time.

[Corey]

You guys don't understand.

[Heather]

And if I, and I see it kind of in this one, and if I do the math, I'm actually making well below minimum wage. So, like, where you're almost angry at people for having normal reactions to the fact that this cookie is $5.

[Corey]

Yeah, if, if you are a wallet watcher, here's ways, because I, I have suffered from that in the past too. The ways that I have helped myself is having a form with upfront pricing that actually makes it. So the sticker shock is not on me. The sticker shock is there before they ever get to me because they have to fill out the form to make the order. So they fill out the form and by the time it gets to me, they've gone through their sticker shock and now it's just deciding on the design. So I really like that in my emails, like, if someone goes around the form, which they do, I always blame the event budget. I never blame the client. So I say, let me know if this price fits the event budget, not let me know if you're broke. You know, that's not what we're trying to do.

[Heather]

Are you a broken click here?

[Corey]

Let me know if I'm too expensive. It's none of our faults. Your event budget was set by you. That's not my fault, and that's not your fault because the budget's the budget. So I love to blame a budget sometimes.

[Heather]

Okay, we all. We all have budgets. We all say, I'm only going to spend this, right? But when something comes and the. The seller is so confident, like, how could you not? It makes me think, well, I can fudge my own numbers a bit, you

[Corey]

know, oh, I sold a car once.

[Heather]

You come up a little bit.

[Corey]

I sold a car once. And she was like, I can only afford, like, let's just say 200. And then so we run her credit app. I go to the credit department, I go get her a little piece of paper, and I come and I'm like, kind of solemn. And I was like, well, they came back with 400, like twice her monthly budget. She said, I got a car. And I said, what? Like, what? She talked herself. She knew that what she was willing to wiggle on, and she wiggled a lot up to 400amonth because she got a car.

[Heather]

Right? That exuberance. And when you're. While watching and almost like when you're demure and you're like, oh, sorry, I have to quote you this, it makes the buyers, me as a buyer feel like, oh, I'm sorry, you must. You know, this isn't good. This is bad. But when somebody's like, hey, great news is I can knock this design out of the park. We are just a little bit different on the budget. I'd love to work with you. And if. If we can't find a number that, no sweat. But, like, here's what we're looking at. Where do you want me to cut? Like, what can we shift here? Like, I want this to be the best party for you. How can we get you up there? And you can do that. And that opens the door to, like, fewer designs or maybe fewer cookies and things like that to kind of say, like, oh, this person really wants to work with me versus those posts. And here's what I'll tell you. I'll tell you right now. Tell you right now the negative Nancy. And if you. If you're a client and you think this and you know they do the carousel post almost now. Yeah. The reason they perform is because you have a lot of other bakers following also performs.

[Corey]

I've scrolled down the comments. It's literally baker saying, say to God,

[Heather]

I should repost this. Thanks for this. I'm going to share this to my clients. Like, because it's performing well. It's performing well because other bakers are following you and that's what they think. Because it is a feeling that is a normal feeling to have, however punishing your clients client base. Corey and I needed to buy something from somebody and Cory's like, I almost don't want to because if it goes wrong, if anything is wrong, I'll turn into a post on a page like about me around about how anything went wrong. Which, you know, in business there's a lot of things that can be misunderstood. Moving on to point 2. Boredom, betting, adding too many things to your menu because you think your customer would get bored with your best sellers. Now this one we also have branded. I hate the blurry thing.

[Corey]

Let me ask you, can you move your microphone more in line with you? It's choosing your microphone or your face. And because the microphone's just ever so closer, it doesn't know. But if you are in line with it, it might be able. And these are for my YouTube folks. Heather's like a blur and then not a blur. A blur, not a blur. So let's see.

[Heather]

I'm not sure what the camera's saying. I'm as close to the microphone as

[Corey]

reasonably possible not focus mine

[Heather]

bored embedding, which is another phrase we use is analysis paralysis. Having too many options so that your customer is overwhelmed. It is always, it is counterintuitive. But too many options. We are a loss averse before we went to acquire. Right. Meaning we'd rather not lose something than we'd rather gain something. Which is, I think, weird lizard brain because it doesn't feel normal. But it's how we're all acting. Sure. Panic buying, panic selling, that kind of thing. So if Corey gave me 20 options, my brain subconsciously would say, if I pick option two, what if option eight was better?

[Corey]

Yeah, we've all seen the videos where like I went to the store and I was so overwhelmed, I ended up getting nothing. Like even the opposite of the point. You left with nothing in your hands.

[Heather]

I find that when there's a ton of options, I do feel a little uneasy because I'm not sure which is the best option for me. And when I leave with nothing, I do feel a little sense of relief because instead of getting the thing which should feel good, not losing out on the wrong thing actually felt better. And I think that is really counterintuitive. But all the studies have shown that too many options is the worst, worst possible scenario. And if you look at documentaries on Chick Fil A, I was actually watching a documentary on YouTube, just letting it play in the background on Wendy's. And Wendy's when it started had five options. It was burger, fries, the softies. Yes. Little.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

And do you know what the fifth option was? It's what Wendy's was always known for, other than the softie. Is it a potato chili. And it was because they used fresh, never frozen beef and chili was made with the leftovers. So that was the interesting part. They started off with five options, so. And now, you know, you add more and more and then it creates mass confusion. So boredom betting is another version of that. So Cor, if you want to delve in, we.

[Corey]

We have talked about it in the pre sales podcast in the past. My customers are bored with my old designs. I must offer new ones or I have to offer so many different designs because what if they don't choose this one because they're bored of it? So we end up offering all of the things and then our customers end up buying none of the things and then we think pre sales don't work, but we've over inundated our end user user and they're worried that they're going to lose out, so they end up not buying anything. And we have microwave mindsets. Imagine scrolling. And we've done it and I've talked about it. When we go to a cookie cutter shop and they have 5,000 pages and we're like, well, I'm going to order something but I don't want to miss out on anything because I'm already paying shipping. So for the $7 shipping, I need to go through all 5,000 pages and make sure I get everything I need. And then we never come back and we're like, oh yeah, I forgot I never ordered those. And it's because we're overwhelmed with the options.

[Heather]

It is an interesting concept. So in terms of thinking for your customer, you would say why it's if I. I would like more options. I would like, you know, if. And it's always that if I offer more, I'll appeal, I'll appeal to more. Sure. I was listening to. I'm sorry, I just let podcasts play in the background all day long. That's why when I say I was listening to a podcast, it's not a lot, it's playing constantly. But I was listening to a podcast on Ramit Sadie. Every Tuesday he does an interview with a couple and talks about Their money. And his book is called Money for Couples. And I'm right there because he niched down to money for couples. He's lost anybody who's single. However, I am single, and I'm listening to Money for Couples. But I would say, if I had a book that called Money Strategies for Absolutely Everyone in Every Stage of Life or Money for Married Couples, which one would appeal to me if I was a married couple trying to learn about money?

[Corey]

You would go for the first one, but you're like, but the second one can appeal. The first one appeals to you too, but it's so broad.

[Heather]

I'm sorry. Just to correct what you said, you said you'd go to the first one. The first one's being too broad. You would say, I'd rather go to one that's hyper focused. Same with your menu list. If you are baker of all, master of none. But I have somebody come in and they're like, I'm just really, really good at sugar cookies. I'm not saying you can't diversify your menu, but I couldn't. When I go to somebody's menu and they're like, breads, hams, gelatin, cookies, cakes, drop cookies, baklava, like, wow, that's a lot. It's appealing, but in a way, we go back to the analysis paralysis. Like, whoa.

[Corey]

One thing that I suffered from is I do mainly sugar cookies. They come in one flavor, vanilla. You're not getting anything but that. I started doing cake pops a few years ago, and I got into the. I want to offer all of the flavors, okay? Flavoring goes bad, friends. And whether you decide to look at the expiration date or not, those are going bad as soon as you buy them. I decided that most people actually bought vanilla. Vanilla cake pops. But all my fun, red velvet chocolate, salted caramel, lemon, those things were not getting used because people weren't buying them yesterday or last week or so. Someone messaged me on Instagram, do you offer key lime cake pops? I said, no, I do not. I only offer vanilla. A lot of us would be like, well, if I offered key lime K Pops, I would have gotten a sale. The problem is you would bought all the key lime flavoring and the recipe for key lime. You would have made one sale, and then it would sit and you would toss it. So any profit you would have made from that one order would been gone. Granted, you could do a whole marketing campaign around your flavors and everything.

[Heather]

Work for key lime.

[Corey]

Ton of work to try to get those things used up. Like, oh, my Red velvet. It's gone bad. Go bad kids. Or you go with your most highest profit margin, one which is vanilla. And you already have the thing.

[Heather]

It's easy.

[Corey]

And you.

[Heather]

I would say if you had. If you had given me a cake pop that was key lime and didn't tell me, I would be off put.

[Corey]

I did that once to you guys.

[Heather]

I think I was strawberry off put. Yeah. Just the final. When I was looking at all these houses, there's a bunch of builders building homes in West Virginia. And this one specific builder, I was like, well, like, how do you. And they're like, oh, we actually don't build houses to spec. We build the houses and then people buy them. So it's like, well, they said, we have three floor plans, and within those three floor plans, we have three options. And within those three options, there's three cabinet finishes. We choose them all. And you find the house that fits your needs, and you buy that house. And I said, for some reason, that is very relaxing. Me not an interior designer, not knowing how to pick anything. The thought of not being able to pick anything was almost a reprieve.

[Corey]

Yeah, imagine. Could you imagine trying to build a house from the ground up where you have to choose what type of wood the siding.

[Heather]

I can't even pick curtains without a little bit of sheer panic. Pun intended.

[Corey]

Sheer panic.

[Heather]

I got it.

[Corey]

So that's what you're doing when you think that your customers are getting bored. You're putting on them something that they never even asked for. So then you get a bloated menu. You end up losing sales you don't even know you were about to make. And then you have, like, let's say your key lime did go expired, and you're like, oh, that sounds bad, but someone ordered key lime. Now you have to order another bottle of Key lime. The profits of that now set. Go on, Go on. Because those flavorings aren't cheap, kids. They're not cheap.

[Heather]

And you suffer from this. I would look at your menu and don't. You don't have to fully. You don't have to chop your menu in. In quarters today. Just take off the five lowest performers. Start there. Yeah, the thing that people just aren't ordering. They're ordering once a year, they're ordering once a quarter. It's just not enough to sustain. Chop those ones off. See how it feels. I don't think you'll see much of an impact.

[Corey]

I. I've only offered vanilla for the longest time. I've had some people like, do you.

[Heather]

Do Chocolate. I'm like, no.

[Corey]

And they're like, I'm fine with vanilla.

[Heather]

Okay, great.

[Corey]

I'm fine with that too.

[Heather]

Point three, social sabotage. Thinking your customers aren't on a social media platform, so choosing not to market on there because you don't shop there yourself. I see this one a lot with the, the collabs is, you know, the collabs happen to be on Instagram because Facebook doesn't have a great search feature and Instagram is slowly catching up. But I always say somebody's like, well, I'm not on Instagram. And I said now would be the time. Well, I don't get any sales there. How do you know you're not on Instagram? It. You are not on it to make that.

[Corey]

You're like, I don't think my customers buy from Instagram. That. That's when.

[Heather]

A lot.

[Corey]

You're thinking a lot for your clients there. I can say that Instagram isn't my primary source of leads, but yesterday I got in a message, Corey, how much do you charge for a dozen cookies? So it's a byproduct for me being there. If I wasn't there, I would never have gotten that message. I have gotten leads from Instagram for sure. And we don't know where every lead comes from. But if I was just thinking for my clients because I think myself wouldn't buy on Instagram. You've cut off one arm of your marketing Persona.

[Heather]

I Facebook. Obviously all this marketing in this podcast tends towards Facebook because it's coming from a Facebook group. So a lot of the people who listen to the podcast found us on Facebook, have Facebook profiles. So it's very Facebook bias. That's a place where the groups are. However, Instagram is, is where a lot of the younger people are going. And I think when I say younger, you just imagine a 15 year old. But not anymore. My little sister started on Instagram before she was on Facebook and now she's 30. And we'd all, a lot of us would say 30 year olds are within our target demographic.

[Corey]

Sure, yeah, 30 year olds, they got kids coming, they got birthdays for those kids.

[Heather]

I wouldn't say to look at all the. So I think it would be hard to be on every social media platform effectively. I do find myself saying, wow, it's just so much work to make it work for this platform, for that one, the other. However, the data shows, and that'll be my podcast poll today. Where do you get your most leads? You're going to see a predominant Facebook, but You're going to see a secondary Instagram. So if the data tells us that both of those platforms are going to generate leads, we'd be remiss to say, well, my small singular data point that I had an Instagram profile three years ago and got no sales is actually indicative of the entire market itself.

[Corey]

Yes, you might not invest any time or effort into Instagram and maybe have gotten zero sales there, but you have also put zero time and effort in towards that. If you put the time and effort to grow your Instagram account, engage with your local followers, follow your local businesses, you are going to start to see an uptick in local followers and then you might see an uptick in inquiries coming through your DMs on Instagram.

[Heather]

The science is there.

[Corey]

The science is there.

[Heather]

Yeah. So I think somebody had asked us yesterday and she asked in the sugar cookie marketing group and she had just done this just fantastic set of these character cookies. And I didn't know what they were, but whatever they were, I'm like, you knocked it out of the park. I've never seen the originals, but this should be the originals. And she said, all on. I think she was talking about reels or in TikTok. Basically, she said, I get the most views when I decorate the cookie, but it's tremendous amount of effort to not only decorate the cookie, but have to record it, edit it and fast forward. And she's like, what other things could I record that hit the same way? And I said, nothing, unless you want to get into politics or client drama, will perform better than the wide net that decorating videos attract. Here I am very organized and clean. You will watch me binge. I'm hoarding, Buried alive, or those TikToks where they clean up the houses. I am a view. I am never a customer. I'll never be a customer. I'll never need the surface. Honestly, I watch it, so it makes me feel better about how clean I am, you know, Know. So she's saying, well, you know, I want more of this reach. And I said, don't always focus on reach. That's top of funnel content. That's going to get people considering you. But how can we bring them as you bring people through your funnel? The reason why we use the word funnel is because it tapers, it gets smaller, gets smaller. So the widest bar at the top of funnel, cool. But as we get smaller to the conversions, that should be a very small portion of your funnel. It. It's meant for the content that gets people, that drags people into your business to convert into a client is ever losing people from the funnel. That's the design, that's the intention.

[Corey]

Let me bring that out. Let's say we decorate a cookie that's in the shape of the United States. It gets a lot of views because it's very aesthetic, it's very pleasing. People know the shape of the United States. Now we decorate a shape of West Virginia. Only few people have watched the West Virginia because they're from West Virginia. Other people are like, I don't even know what that state is. Is that the best Virginia or the West Virginia best? We've grown smaller. Now we get even SM smaller. We do Charlestown races and slots. That's the only place I know in West Virginia. And it's even smaller. Very few people go. It's just, if you're a gambler, you're going to like it. If you like to bet on horse racing. So we're even smaller. But the person that pops out after that is my local client in West

[Heather]

Virginia because they say, oh, I love Charlestown. Rice's Laws for Saturday.

[Corey]

Yeah, I go there every Saturday.

[Heather]

So while the view of Charlestown does not not resonate with most of the people from the America cookie, nor even the West Virginia cookie, it resonates with my audience who actually has the money that can pay me to drive it to their house or whatever.

[Corey]

Yeah. So you'll see your big fun creators that you love to follow who make super intricate, very cool cookies. And you're like, but that's what they're making. They're making those decorating videos. But you have to say, where? Where's their goals are their goal. Brand partnerships where they make one super intricate cookie for a brand because the brand's paying them, are the creator rewards program where views from any human body actually pays their bills. That means.

[Heather]

I ended with a comment. I said, if you're getting paid through creator fund, I say keep digging. I mean decorating. Keep digging. I'm tired of grandpa. I think it is always indicative of this. If you say, I wish I got the views like this creator, click to their profile and see if their bio says they're not taking orders.

[Corey]

Yes.

[Heather]

Yes.

[Corey]

Then you can't make the same content as them because you are taking orders. And if you can't ship, you can only take the local ones.

[Heather]

Whenever I see a local baker who wants to make content to pull from the creator fund, I say it's a matter of time before time forces your hands into one or the other into being a Content creator at UGC or being a local baker because it is only so many hours in the day. And that's what the person had written. They said it's taking forever. Right. So you either. And she probably had the skill set to be a content creator. You become a slave to that. Those programs because they kick you out constantly.

[Corey]

Yeah. Giant, giant cookier, TikTok counts. Fully abandoned. And you got to be like, but they got millions of followers. Why would they abandon them? Because it wasn't consistent. The money wasn't consistent, the time in wasn't consistent. And they had to find something more consistent. You wouldn't abandon something that was working for you, I promise you that.

[Heather]

Making millions, that's not for me. I like to hit the pavement.

[Corey]

I like sweat from my 9 to 5.

[Heather]

So point 4 policy policing. Choosing to not enforce your policies because you don't want them to think you're being mean. We always say, like, Corey kind of started off this podcast, it's you and me against the big bad whatever, right? Me and you against my policies. But you just act like they're this entity that you can't move. Like, I'm so sorry, I'd love to help you, but the policy states. Right? Right. A lot of times we say like, oh, you know, it would be super nice. The policies, policies, they're there.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

You can bend them. We've talked about that in other podcasts. But if you're bending them before the client asked you to, you are thinking for your client, not as your client.

[Corey]

I've been there. Where Businesses specifically. After I moved from my old house to this house and I had to take more orders, like to get it off the ground again, I was like, oh, man, I. I could bend all of my policies so I can get more sales. And that makes sense because it feels good because the goal is make more sales. The problem is the policies weren't there to be funsies. They weren't just there as a station. They were there to protect me and my business from wasting time, wasting money, wasting the client's time, things like that. So it's way easy to be like, if I just move this policy, they'll make the order. But at what cost, friend?

[Heather]

Because you're, you know, everyone's like, I have this nightmare client. I'm like, were they always a nightmare or did you train him to be a nightmare? I. My twin trust is I got a kitten. It was, we're still in the was this a good idea stage. Um, he's still learning how to use A litter box, which I'm not accustomed to.

[Corey]

The whole house is litter box to him.

[Heather]

Yeah. What have I done? I thought he'd play with the other cat. Now I just have two cats meowing at me to play with them. We can't. They cannot play with each other unless I'm in the room.

[Corey]

I told you, though. Okay, we'll wait till the twinners. But I told you that was gonna be an option.

[Heather]

So. Of course, I'm on Google today. How to potty train small kitten. Right. And it's like, consistency over a long period of time, meaning after every meal, put them in the litter box, shut the door, Litter box, cat door, litter box, cat, door. Like, until this cat's like. I guess when I eat, I go to the litter box, cat and door. Right. With our clients, I think we find somebody. And you remember, we have the fear of rejection or the fear of confrontation again, because that feels like rejection.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

We have a client who's kind of shown maybe they're a little bit difficult, so we capitulate to whatever it is that we think would suffice them. Right. Get them off our back. Lower confrontation.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Then the client's like, oh, you just trained. You just. Litter box trained me to poop in the middle of the floor. So let's try it again. And you're like, oh, no more confrontation. Yeah, let me. Okay, fine. The living room is now your litter box. No more living room. The client expands into the space. We've given up, and we recluse because we are saying, I'm scared of this, so I'm going to continue. And now we have a true nightmare. Now the escalation to the client is, well, write you a bad review everywhere. I'll drag you to the.

[Corey]

Yeah, but you're like, no, I've been so commenting over the years, you can't write me a bad review. But here's the thing. You let them become the nightmare. They're your nightmare. They're not.

[Heather]

I want you to look at these two faces right? Here we are. We are shouting from the bottom of a trench that we have. This is something Corey and I suffer from. Me, definitely more so. But where I'm scared, confrontation with the client. I give, give, give, and then they become a nightmare. When I'm like, shouldn't you be appreciative? No, actually, the best gift for people is a boundary. Is those policies. Is it?

[Corey]

Boundary right off the bat, not the boundary. Inserted five orders in. Because now you're busy. Too busy to take their extra. You Know demands or their extra order. It's the boundaries right off the bat. So what I say is, to order with Corey, you have to fill out the form. If you don't want to order with Corey, you don't want to fill out the form. And now everybo gets a form. And sometimes I don't hear. They never fill out the form. And you know what? It's gonna feel like a little bit of a loss. But to work with court, you gotta

[Heather]

fill out the form.

[Corey]

But when we think on behalf of our clients and say, I'll just. I'll just take this one via dm, you know, just. They're right here. I'm right here. I have the time. I. I hope you have the time for the next five years, friend.

[Heather]

I heard this quote once, and I don't know who to attribute to. I think it was about some kind of war, though. But it was better to have no freedoms than have freedoms taken away. Like when you give a client some elbow room and then you take that away because you're like, oh, no, I see they're becoming a problem client, that you have created your own monster. Corey is speaking from the bottom of her own trench. I tell you, I have. This is Corey. I have. I'm having this client. Just. It's just ridiculous how they're acting. And I was like, and whose fault is that? Like, mine. But. And I was like, hey, you can vent as long as we call that it was your fault that you showed them to do this. One of my best. Go ahead.

[Corey]

Oh, go ahead.

[Heather]

No, no. I was just gonna drag you. So thanks.

[Corey]

I'll drag myself. One of my best clients who gives me a large tip, and I've used her giant tips as a justification for her. She'll always order last minute, and it always puts me out. And the only person I can look in the mirror in and see is myself. And then I say, corey, take the order. You're going to get the tip. But I don't want to hear you compliment one not night for staying up too late making her order. That is something that I did. And I'm still reaping the repercussions even now to this day. It was so funny. Was. I didn't text her back right away because I was busy with another order. And she texted me back and says, are you ignoring me?

[Heather]

Now Corey's turning mad. I can tell you're ignoring her because you. You're frustrated. Then she does that. Now you're ignoring her because now you have that potential confrontation. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[Corey]

And do you see the hellhole I've created for myself and only myself to blame old Corey that honestly she needs to be my twice a year reminder because it has me sending the form to every other person though when you

[Heather]

hear posses I see, I see bakers who are getting there. They're learning how to. They're toddlers learn how to walk. They end up becoming this kind of really abrasive thing. And I think it comes from a place of fear as well. You know, as the policy states, we can no longer provide like these real. I call it lawyer speak. Corey's ex husband love to use it. Every ex I've had loves to do that and thus that like okay, therefore you didn't even graduate college, dude. That's all. So when if you want the bridge the gap like we said, don't just chop off your whole menu right now. Take off the five lowest performance. Don't just become a lawyer speak policy enforcer now. Sorry, my little sister is replying to Ashley instead. Let me just mute that because I can just tell they have a conversation mute for one hour. They're having a conversation. Do this instead. And this one I kind of like because it's nice. It's like oh hey Sarah. Where Sarah is a person of the hour. Sarah, thank you so much. You know my policies don't allow me to do this. I can make a one time exception if you cannot say no because that feels too rude and you've trained these people. You can say just one more time, right? Yeah, one more time. We risk it, but it feels better than no. Thus shall never order from me again.

[Corey]

Let's blame our brains. Hey Sarah, I am. I have forgotten a few things in the past few orders and I'm trying to get better about it. I've created this form. If you wouldn't be mind, could you just fill out this form with the information? I know we could do it through dms, but I'm trying to look more professional and if you could help me do this, it would just make my day.

[Heather]

I've been going through it. I had a. I hit a pothole so bad that you'd have to turn off not only the music in the car but the AC so I could hear the air escaping from the tire itself. Anyways, it was just causing an alignment issue. But we had to go to what's popping con. We were taking my car and I didn't want to wear the tire unevenly. Also the vibration is frustrating to me so I contact in West Virginia, a tire shop, which seemed like a normal thing to me. Of course, West Virginia has absolutely no online booking. You have to call immediately, get a guy who I can tell is probably frustrated. He's. He's like, what car do you have? And I was like, in 2024. He's like, right there. I can't help you. Did new vehicles need, like, sensor alignment so you. You'll not get anyone in West Virginia. How no tire shop in West Virginia can help you. And I'm like, oh, like you're talking, not me. I could take that personally. However, what he should have said is, heather, I'd love to help you. We just don't have the materials for it or we don't have the sensor diagnostics for it. That said, I can refer you to a couple places. Like, which one? We got to the same place. I ended up going to the place he referred me to. But one left me miffed and felt like I was attacking him for some reason. And one would have let me, like, oh, but when I have a flat, dude, it's going to be you.

[Corey]

Yeah, like we say, beating up your clients.

[Heather]

Like,

[Corey]

when you're like, how. How dare you try to place an order one week in advance when it clearly my policy stayed five years in

[Heather]

advance only, like, let me go to my Facebook page and write a proclamation about twins.

[Corey]

You just said, have policy. Yeah, but you're still human. And there's still a human there behind the screen talking to you. You know, it was so funny. There was this post that went viral, and it was this lady who says, I don't have time to ask your questions. Go find my pin post. It probably answers it there. That's what. But this post went viral because the lady was like, how dare you think I have time to go d around your pin post? You know there's humans at the end of the tunnel on these. And to beat up your clients just because they don't fit into your poly. That's not the answer either. But we also don't want to bender poly and create nightmares for ourselves. There's a nice in between in there. I mean, you know, they're still searching for it.

[Heather]

The. As per my therapist, she's like, you think black and white, but most of life is gray. Unfortunately. Unfortunately. The subtle nuance that takes us through the podcast topic. Do you have anything you'd like to add? I would tell everyone. And you listen to this podcast. Take the nuggets and know hows and just simmer over them. Not everything needs to be Implemented. Not everything fits for everyone. However. What parts of these can you extrapolate a thing like, you know what? I'm going to try something. I'm going to try a hybrid version of that one that works for me. But yeah, you know, something about that sounded better than my current experience. I'm going to try it out.

[Corey]

If you say, and you peel your own onion layers back and say, you know what I have been thinking on behalf of my clients, if. And I'm scared to quote em the price, the tiered price, they actually fall in. Cause I'm worried that they won't buy. That's something that you could work on. You could really say, you know what, I am worth it and I'm here to make money. I'm a business. They came to me not for a best friend, but actually to buy cookies. I'm going to quote them correctly. That would be an onion layer for you to uncover there. If you use your policies and you bend them all the time, maybe that's where the form comes in and, and your form does the heavy lifting and says, hey, there's a rush fee if you order within a certain amount of time, you know, and let them pick and choose and they're putting together what they, they want and everything like that. If you feel like you're not getting orders and you're blaming it on because you don't have a million options, let's maybe dig a little deeper and say, let's try the marketing first before we go. Add the bronuts, the cronuts.

[Heather]

You can add a million options, but if nobody still knows your options, it's not going to save you from your stuff. Love.

[Corey]

Right? It will feel good because it feels like you're doing action. You're, you're adding something else. But at what cost did you have to go buy more baking pans, more baking sheets, more chocolate wafers, storage space, sure, that's, that's going to chip away at your business over. But it feels good. It feels like we're adding good things to it. But then if you open your cupboard and you're like, wow, these, these oils and extracts are all expired. That's an onion layer for you. That, that's something that you just peeled back and you're like, wow, that was me, man.

[Heather]

That was me.

[Corey]

I know that I don't like doing the. Not cake puffs, but the longer ones. I can't remember the name.

[Heather]

What is it?

[Corey]

Cake Sickles. You know who bought everything for a cake Sick.

[Heather]

That was me.

[Corey]

That was. I And when I went to donate it and tossed the things I needed to toss, it was, oh, it hurt my feelings things. But I said, corey, they don't bring you joy. You're actually not really good at them. And you gave them your best go. It's just not in the cards for you, babe.

[Heather]

Just not in the cards. And that's an onion layer though.

[Corey]

And you have to peel back your own on.

[Heather]

Corey was doing a lot of onion peeling last week. She even said, I peeled back my own onion.

[Corey]

Oh, there I was to the core of the. We were crying. There was onion tears, there was real tears.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Corey]

The big one I think that we can all maybe peel from is just focusing on one social media platform. Heather's right. We all came from Facebook. Technically, if you found the sugar cookie marketing, that's our biggest avenue. That's our widest net, that's our United States. But I see bakers being like, it's just oversaturated. So I'm actually closing my business. Which is a crazy pivot because there's apps like next door, there's Yelp, there's the online Google. You know, there's so many.

[Heather]

Being the most well known person in a single network group.

[Corey]

Yeah, yeah. The in person networking. So for you to, to cut your nose, spite your face because you're unwilling to learn a new platform. Wild work. There's an onion there.

[Heather]

So just to recap. Point one, wallet watching. And that's thinking your customers won't pay your prices because you wouldn't. Of course you wouldn't. You wouldn't pay them so much you decided to make them yourself. Point two, Boredom betting. Adding too many things to your menu because you think your customer will get bored with the best sellers. Point three, social sabotage. Thinking your customers on a aren't on a social media platform so you don't market there cuz you wouldn't shop there. Point four, policy policing. Choosing not to enforce your policies because you don't want them to think you're mean. You're thinking for them. Point 5 is follow up fear. Thinking you'll annoy your clients if you. Oh. Thinking you'll be annoying to your potential guides if you choose not to follow up with them to close. I'm so sorry we missed this one.

[Corey]

Yeah, you missed that wack.

[Heather]

I said, what is this thing I'm reading for the first time in my life? I think that one is I feel annoying because I would be annoyed.

[Corey]

This is that I'm annoying them. So I don't want to post on social media a lot. I. Someone reached out for cookies. I sent them the quote. They ghosted me. But did you follow up with them? You know, but I don't want to be annoying. If they want it, they want it. The biggest thing I learned in car sales is nobody comes to the car dealership for friends. They're literally there for four wheels in a cabin.

[Heather]

So it's. I hate to inconvenience you with this option. Like, that's what it would feel like. My own example. Right? So every day in this house is coming out to the front door, and somebody this pest control company guy ended up talking to had left this card. Finally, he catches me while I'm there, and I said, dude, I got to apologize to you. I have a small stack of papers dedicated to your name with the intention that I'd reach out. I've just been so busy. And so we end up talking about the pest control, and there's bugs here I don't like. So he's like, oh, no. I just, you know, he's like, it's part of my job to show back up. So I was like, oh, like, he obviously has a CRM program that's forcing him here.

[Corey]

Sure.

[Heather]

But we're closer to finding something that works for the both of them. Of us. However, had he only put the first card, I even said, why are you not emailing me? But had he just left the first note and never come back and seen. Well, she's not interested. She's not chasing it. We would have. He's. He's a lot closer to the sale being repetitive than he was before by ultimately facing the rejection of, I open the door and I say, never knock here again.

[Corey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Heather]

Risking that. Now he's like, now I was like, oh, I really do hate those kind of bugs that you guys get rid of.

[Corey]

A closed door is a great answer because it's closed. It's locked shut. When someone says, no, thank you, that is, we. We love that. A lot of times we leave that door just a tinge but crocked open because the fear of rejection when the door is tightly shut feels bad. So what we do is, like, it wasn't me. It was them, I guess. I don't know. I never asked. So you are actually not closing the sale because you fear that they might say no, and you have left money now on the table. Following up is big. The people who follow up make the most sales. I promise you that. And they might be annoying, but they're getting the nose and they're moving, right? They're never keeping open. And as bakers, I know we do it. I had someone reach out and they're like, I want these cookies. And I said, I can totally bake them for you. Let me know if you want them ghosted. But now I feel in the ma. The back of my brain is that week, if she says she wants them, I can't take another order for that week because if she says she wants them that week, that week will be extra booked and I'll be stressed. What it would behoove me to do is say, hey, so and so I'm giving you till 5pm tonight. I'm actually closing the calendar. Someone else is interested in that. I just wanted to give you first dibs. If I don't hear back. I hope we can work together in the future.

[Heather]

I love to earn your business.

[Corey]

Bada bing, bada boom. We have chased the no because the no will set you free.

[Heather]

Did she not book with you? She did not.

[Corey]

That's okay.

[Heather]

But I think a lot of the times that first email, I mean, I just look at my own track record, right? I have the best laid plans of mice and men, the best of intentions. I just get busy. It gets lost in the sauce, and then they come back up and I'm like, you know what? So sorry. You're right. I, I totally forgot. Or I, I, I didn't forget. I just got overwhelmed. And the tik toks got too good. Like, you know, them pinging you because again, I knocked on your door first. Yeah. We're trying to find a common ground here. But don't feel annoying, especially when somebody came to you. And.

[Corey]

And don't fear reaching out and closing the sale, whether it turns into a yes or a no, because I promise you, the other bakers who are not chasing the S or chasing the no know are leaving the door wide open for you to actually be the person who chases that. That was the biggest thing with car sales is unless you hear a definite no, it's a yes. And that's what you're chasing constantly. Hey, the car's still on the lot. How can I get you back in here?

[Heather]

Drive time. Sometimes I love to be convinced. I love to be on the fence and then pitch me.

[Corey]

I'm like, you know what?

[Heather]

How could I not? Yes. How could I say no?

[Corey]

If that man, Heather has these weird old bugs in our backyard and they're like, by the gajillion, if that man grabbed a fistful and brought it to a store, brought it to Other Jordan to say, you like.

[Heather]

Like these. You like these.

[Corey]

I can get rid of these tomorrow. Do you want that? Heather would say yes, but if Heather opens the door and he was like, oh, hey, I didn't want to annoy you. I'm just stopping by, dropping off another business card. Do you mind if I leave it by. Heather's not gonna buy because he's leaving yet. The. The crumb trails to. Because he's worried about getting no. So he's like, here's another business card. Let me know. Maybe yes, maybe no. But if he's like, I can do it today or I'm gone, baby gate.

[Heather]

It's funny. He was like, hey, I just want to try. I'm not. I'm not really good at. I'm not a salesperson. I was like, oh, yeah, I can get a vibe. You seem very nice, though. You know, it's just interesting how we feel. If you go to those sale, if you watch on YouTube, those sales cultures, those sales conferences, you're like, wow, these people are cut from a different cloth. They can truly. We had Eugene on the podcast, and like you said, me and my wife, we. We saw. We had a challenge. Who could get the most nos. Yeah. It's just a different method of thinking it. It is.

[Corey]

And it's getting out of your own body and saying, they're not saying no to me. They're saying no to their budget or they' yes to their budget. No to me doesn't mean they don't like me. It means they. They like their budget more, and that's okay. And maybe they find another baker. The. The one thing that's so subjective is cookie tastes. And cookie looks like I don't work with almond extract, but the lady down the street does work with almond extract. So you might be like, I love almond extract. I'm not going to be the baker.

[Heather]

You choose.

[Corey]

And that's. You didn't say, corey, I don't like you because of your vanilla extract. You said, I liked her because she used almond extract. So if you can remove yourself from that fear of, like, they don't like me anymore and put yourself in that, they just found something that fits their needs better. It feels so much better. You can go to bed. So much easier that way.

[Heather]

True, true, true, true. Okay, moving on. Now there's no more hidden points. I've read them all.

[Corey]

Thank you. That was all I had.

[Heather]

That was my brain. So we have a bootcamp coming up next week. I'm the heavy lifter in this one. That's why I'm excited about it. But Corey is my first pupil and I saw her probably would you probably print off 10, do you know? I'm sorry, did you know you can print off more than one cutter at a time?

[Corey]

I do know that the cutters were rather large.

[Heather]

Corey has a bamboo A1 mini which is actually the printer that we're going to be using in this 3D printing cookie cutters from scratch boot camp. That drops May 8th, May 7th and May 8th. So it's a two day boot camp. But yeah, I've purchased another bamboo A1 mini so we can unbox it together and we'll assemble it together and you'll be so surprised how easy it is is yesterday I. For the purposes of this talking point today I went to Etsy and I googled or searched grad cap cookie cutter. It was a three and a half inch was 6:45, 6:75. Anyways, around $7. And then I added it to cart and I said ship this bad boy to West Virginia. And they're like okay, that's nine and change. So I'm already at 17. This boot camp is 13. And we'll save you on that $9. That disappears because. Because okay, support cutter shops love them. But that shipping fee goes to nowhere.

[Corey]

Insanity. You'll find that a lot of your favorite cutter shops are creating STL files. STL files are the files you need to print it at home so you can still support your favorite cutter shops and you can print at home and save on that money. And that money can be the $13 to have you sign up so you can start putting at home. Heather had bought the Sprinkle Factory STL library. I think at the Vendee Blendy last

[Heather]

year we actually paid full price. So shoot.

[Corey]

Okay. Yeah, I love it. That's why I was printing so much yesterday. It was nothing. I was just, I was just downloading print. Downloading print because it was so easy. STL files, they're just ready to roll. That's what the bamboo eats for lunch. It loves an STL file. That's what it needs.

[Heather]

Here's an interesting concept of the boot camps. Huge fan of them. We've been doing them all year. You can purchase the past boot camps as well. They're on TheCookieCollege.com. just scroll down, you'll find the past boot camps or you can enroll pre enlist because it's a bootcamp to a future bootcamp, right? So I use procreate. That'll be our August bootcamp to create a strawberry that says you're the very best mom. Right. Then I used a 3D. I used the software cookie design lab to create an STL that I printed and handed off to Corey who will use it in a pre sale. Now these are all boot camps. So you can see what the bootcamps are. Money makers. And they build on each other. Because if you can print an STL from a design and procreate, you can customize this to your client and photograph graph it to present in your preset. Like you can see how all these boot camps for 13 bucks or a discounted cookie college membership that saves you 13 will build your business in 2026.

[Corey]

Yeah, and the cookie college and the boot camps are just like a glimpse into what the cookie college is. That's how me and Heather said how could someone want to be a part of the cookie college when they don't know what the cookie college is about? That's why we did the boot camps. But in the cookie college you have inbox zero. So really making your inbox be another coworker worker for your business that keeps you organized. And I've just been devouring that this whole year. It's been just amazing.

[Heather]

Listen, Corey is my biggest she, she'll yell, kick, scream and throw things into organization optimization and efficiency.

[Corey]

But look at me. Go look at me title today, this morning.

[Heather]

Okay, so I use a Google sheet. We update it every week for the podcast. Today Corey's like, where's my Google sheet link?

[Corey]

Where's my Google sheet? I can't function without it.

[Heather]

So. So yeah, this kind of stuff, stuff frees up more time. Time is money. You keep more of your money, you work more efficiently. Cor will be working. Next month's boot camp is on. Recording cookie videos. You guys begged. I begged, I pestered, she gave in.

[Corey]

Yeah. If you look at the sugar cookie marketing's Instagram because you're going to be on there and marketing on there yourself, you can see what the videos kind of look like. They're not super high end, but they're getting us views, clicks, likes. They're moving down the funnel.

[Heather]

Specifically higher end videos with high quality equipment. One it takes tons more time to edit but it doesn't always perform as better as off the cuff quick stuff.

[Corey]

I know, I know. If I see a high perform like a high done video on TikTok, I scroll. I want to see you in your closet.

[Heather]

This random thought you're in your garage and you needed to get that but so that is so we have May is 3D printed cookie cutters, June is cookie videos, July is cracking community groups and August will be procreate. And then we'll come up with the list for the rest of the year. I can't believe I saw the. You know. Do you know. Do you follow Bristow weather guy or whatever?

[Corey]

I. I've seen him in my feed

[Heather]

many a time today he said we have, I think he said 40 minutes left of sunlight to gain as the sunset. So we have 40 minutes again. We gain like every. We gain like two or three minutes each day, he said. And then we start losing daylight hours.

[Corey]

Oh wow.

[Heather]

I know. So we're. We're ha. We're looking at. And I can't believe I'm saying this because I feel like it just. I'm still typ 2025 in some cases. I know. It just turned 2026 and we're already looking towards the end, the half, the halfway point.

[Corey]

I know we're almost in May.

[Heather]

We got three days.

[Corey]

My girl.

[Heather]

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.

[Corey]

Oh my goodness.

[Heather]

Okay, we actually had someone submit to the gossip column. I just pasted this in. I didn't read it, but it says ghost going to ghost. But why? There's a lot of eyes. I get it. You send me a cookie inquiry, I send you a quote and you're like, like yikes. I had no idea how to give up my firstborn to afford these things. Even though my pricing is right there for all to see. And you go snow problem. But why do you agree on the price, have me go through the trouble of invoicing and then you disappear. I know you saw my follow up email saying, hey there, just checking because I track my emails and you don't even do me the courtesy of saying you changed your mind. Please make it make sense. I don't know why this gets so under my skin, but I just had to vent somewhere. Hashtag rude, hashtag cookie or tab feeling things too.

[Corey]

Hashtag amen. Hallelujah. I totally understand the what's so funny is we have a sugar cookie classes account and we have my mixing bowl bakery page. A lot of clients, they don't know this, but they will just copy and paste and send the same information to both accounts unbeknownst to them that I'm running both of them. So you see, they're just. It's a money game. They're casting the net wide to see what they can get back. And I blame insurance companies companies because they.

[Heather]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Corey]

Which quote do you like the best. And they're just, like, lined up so

[Heather]

you can pick the cheapest one. Yeah. I wonder. That is frustrating to do all that fort work and then just like crickets. But it's because you even followed up.

[Corey]

I know. It's because you got a yes. And then you're like, all right, here's

[Heather]

the invoice that's in my mind when I get a yes. Money spent already.

[Corey]

Oh, yeah.

[Heather]

You just need to do the exchange. I've already bought the there. That is a good one. Yeah. Ghosting. I'm. I'm accidentally found myself on Breakup TikTok Algie before I ended Scooter microphone back

[Corey]

because you scooched it up while he was talking.

[Heather]

There you go. You did. You did.

[Corey]

There you go.

[Heather]

But it's a lot of people talking about being ghosted and how. And you know, it's these. It was on the girl side of Tick Tock. I. The boys weren't posting, otherwise I'd watch those too. But, like, this girl, she had a date scheduled, and when she said she's on her way, the guy hearted the message. And she gets there and says that 45 minutes wild. Yeah. And she's super frustrated. But, like, I'm frustrated. What was the point of the whole thing? And she's saying, like, what is it? Like, is it just to see if you could get someone to leave their house for you? And once they confirmed it, you were never gonna go. I mean, these people are just crying and they're done.

[Corey]

I do want to say she has. She's avoided a horrendous situation. We can always say, yeah, yeah.

[Heather]

Like, why make somebody one. I'm sorry. From the girl's perspective. Got a shower. I gotta put on makeup, which is a whole problem for me.

[Corey]

Your favorite perfume. Now wasted.

[Heather]

Yeah. Now you. And then in your mind, you're, like, hyped because you're possibly seeing this person who likes you. You've communicated with him enough that you feel comfortable. And then you drop five, and then

[Corey]

you've got to go to the thing

[Heather]

and probably still spend money because it would be weird to just sit there. I think they ended up meeting where they were supposed to meet at a park. So she wasn't out the money, but she's out 45 minutes of getting in your own head because you think, what if I just wait a little longer? Maybe they're like, you try to give the best of intentions and then the just disparity of realizing that there was no good intentions ever.

[Corey]

Two questions for You. Have you been ghosted as a business and have you been ghosted as a date date?

[Heather]

I've been ghosted as a business a ton of times. I know that one I can let roll off my back as a date. I have not dated. I got in a relationship when I was 19 and then out when I was 30. That was 10 years. Today. I. In as long as I've been alive, the dating apps hadn't existed. And then I never. Yeah, I've never.

[Corey]

I think the dating apps. I know this has nothing to do

[Heather]

with this lady's whole Goss thing.

[Corey]

The dating apps have made it too easy, easy to unmatch or delete or block that it becomes like, okay to treat someone's feelings so minuscule. Like, you know, where is. If you used to meet someone at the gym and then you would plan a date, you knew you could follow up with them the next day at the gym and be like, why'd you stand me up on the day?

[Heather]

I'll say this. In the times that I've gotten, somebody's given me their numbers and I've engaged. Every time that I've said, hey, hey. Like this text frequency is too high. I never get the. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And I'll stop. It's always. It almost triples down, down when I tell somebody, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, either I'm. When I'm, I'm not single at the time or hey, this is too, too many messages. Nobody ever seems to respect that. So I can see why after I send that very clear message, then I stop responding. I don't know if that's considered ghosting, although I was very clear.

[Corey]

I think that was your final. Hey, following up. Here's your invoice. And then they like did not read that loud and clear.

[Heather]

Continue texting. I am not really positive how it's supposed to work after that point. Like, I guess it becomes like a respect thing or maybe like I can text her to death and she'll just finally give in.

[Corey]

Yeah, I, I guess to the, the Goss call. Not that you asked for anyone's opinions

[Heather]

and this is an opinion piece.

[Corey]

You could always say on a date. I have not been ghosted on a date. Most of the people I've met in

[Heather]

person person though we've been in long, long term relationships.

[Corey]

Oh, I, I'm trying to remember back these were to my early 20s and it was forever and then it was in only like a year and a half time frame that I even dated that was horrendous to the gospel lady. You could always say your last Hail Mary. As I saw project Hail Mary this past weekend your last Hail Mary would be hey, I'm just closing this out. I'm deleting the indicator invoice bless be you know and do your one last pass to see granted that's annoying. And you know they gave a yes so you could always I've gotten some sales doing that like getting ready to block you girl. And then they're like oh my goodness,

[Heather]

I'm so sorry I just saw this.

[Corey]

I'm like oh no worries friend.

[Heather]

Let me random idea I had. This probably doesn't isn't thought all the way through the noodle isn't always cooked when you have the idea right and throw it up against the wall. What if like you built into your pride price a discount but it's not discounted because your price is at you know, compensate for it for first time customers as long as they pay within one week. Like it'd be like hey I'd love to work with you. In fact here's as a first time discount. Would you see a first time user discount if you get this paid in a week and then when they don't pay he's like hey this is about to run up. I'd love to get you in on this. Sure. If they end up paying later you get more money. If they pay earlier they got incentive and now it's the first time so you know it's not forever.

[Corey]

It's the reverse late fee.

[Heather]

It's a reverse. It's an incentive fee.

[Corey]

Yeah, an incentive fee. I kind of like it.

[Heather]

Right. So because you're still sniffing butts when you're first timers together they're first time buyer. You're technically their first time cookier and you've done them a small favor in this, you know, discount for first time orders. Yeah. Now you have a reason to follow up because you're doing them a favor. It's you and you guys against the expiring day discount. Yes. Just a thought. It's a thought.

[Corey]

I like it. I like goss call. Thank you for that and I totally commiserate with you. I've been there, done that. It's annoying and it's frustrating and people

[Heather]

are meanie bo beanies mini bo be just try not to take it personally. Although it's exceptionally hard not to. It is especially when you see them

[Corey]

in a group and they recommend someone else has happened to me. They're like oh good Love that I booked with blah blah blah. But like, you were literally in my DMS last night.

[Heather]

Maybe. Gags yeah, I feel like saying ahem, oh, it's you.

[Corey]

Oh, I think I rem call your name.

[Heather]

I remember when you unmashed with me yeah in my square invoice Upcoming events the collabs Main Street May is in three weeks on May 22. Again, if you say I don't know how to get corporate orders, here's how you do it. And we actually write the caption for you. All you have to do is go to Main street and turn a business into a cookie. Then go back and take a photo, ideally of that cookie in front of the business. Not required, but it's going to land better when you do it that way.

[Corey]

And I want to say the benefits aren't just for you who just heard corporate orders. I don't like those. And just tuned out, baby girl. That's not just. It's tying you to your location as well. People buy from those they know and they like and they trust. If you went to their favorite place and you're like, wow, I never get comments on any of my posts. But then you showcase someone else's favorite restaurant, you're going to get some. Oh my gosh, we go there.

[Heather]

I love it.

[Corey]

And then you say, what's your favorite meal? You order there and like, oh, I guess you have to try. Blah, blah, blah. Wow, you have four comments already.

[Heather]

That's why I love this collab. One, you get the baker's shoe in, right. Two, you get a potential for corporate. Not the goal, but would be cool. And three, you get the people like, I love that place. I can't believe you've been to that place. That very popular place as well. And I think you do. I just be curious. Did you already pick your place?

[Corey]

No, not yet.

[Heather]

If you could make the Aussie rolls into a cookie, it's a circle roll. I know, but you'd have to do the shape.

[Corey]

Eat the little white part on the bottom of the bun.

[Heather]

And you know how he has the burnt part. Maybe make the basket. What if you made the basket and them in the basket and then did floaters around them? Wow, you are asking a lot. I know, I know. I just think that so many people love those bread. There's this local company, I almost wish it was a national chain so you guys could taste of it. They essentially took a donut hole and then called it the appetizer bread.

[Corey]

They never put the sugar on it. It.

[Heather]

It's A sugarless and they have this like very sweet butter mixed with something. It's so good.

[Corey]

Honey butter.

[Heather]

Oh, good. It's only a dollar and the dollar gets donated. I think it was an interesting pivot to the dollar used to be free. But they're so good. Once you pay the dollar, you can get as many as you want. Yeah, I know. Stack up on them. We picked our June collab. Corey said, let's go to meet the baker. That one always does well. Especially in slower times like June where people are either taking fewer orders and then a lot of our clients are out of 10 town upcoming events Cookie Con Happy hour sponsored by Heather campbell Berkshire is June 24th. That's in only eight weeks. It felt like at one point I said that was a year away and now it's just eight short weeks away and that'll be in June. The venue, blendy is thankfully 30 weeks away. Major holidays, teacher appreciation, nurse appreciation are in the next week. Mother's Day is in two weeks. Graduation and last day of school, which are location dependent are around seven and eight weeks. So if you haven't ordered your cutters,

[Corey]

now would be that.

[Heather]

That time. Father's day is in eight weeks. Summerween is in nine weeks. For you guys wondering, that's June 27th. Summerween, people were asking what in the heck was I at? It is this trendy holiday gaining some footing where people who love Halloween would love to celebrate it twice. So they picked this random day in the middle of the summer. So it's Halloween in the summer. It's. That's all it is.

[Corey]

Yes. The countdown to Halloween. And it's in the hottest part of the year. Us Halloween folk like it because it

[Heather]

gives us something to look forward to. Do. Yeah. So if you say June, July are slow times. Maybe Summerween is an interesting one. And then 4th of July is in 10 weeks for my Americans.

[Corey]

Wild, wild. And if you're listening to this today, which is the 28th, it's bus drivers appreciation day.

[Heather]

Oh, very nice. Thank you. Bus drivers. I always thought that would be a fun job.

[Corey]

I think it's stressful.

[Heather]

I here in West Virginia there is a train. I've never seen it. I hear it all the time. And it's crossing the road constantly. And there's so many train tracks. However, all the school buses have to stop before they.

[Corey]

I agree that's probably for the best.

[Heather]

Little bit of traffic.

[Corey]

A little that buses are known for making traffic.

[Heather]

When I see a blush, a bus blush and his flashing lights, I know I'm not getting anywhere anytime.

[Corey]

Reason why I like my bus system is she'll let you, she'll let you pass her. If she knows that she's got five more stops before you. She'll be like, like this and wave you up forward so you can get gone.

[Heather]

Something I kind of noticed is when the bus is coming to a slowdown, his bun lights start flashing. But the stop sign hasn't even thought about coming out yet.

[Corey]

When that yellow is to alert.

[Heather]

Okay. So it's not a stopping yellow.

[Corey]

No. You can still pass them if you're

[Heather]

on a passing area. Just kidding. So okay, in the signs extending here's kind of confusing. You have. It's a mass confusion when the sign's starting to think about it. Does he need to be fully extended to stop? I know the bus.

[Corey]

The red lights can start before the sign stops. The red lights is do not pass the stop sign.

[Heather]

The stop.

[Corey]

The red lights are the stop.

[Heather]

I think we should have all the lights coming on at the same time because otherwise it's kind of confusing.

[Corey]

The yellow ones are if you're on a two lane road, you know that okay, get gone or get slowed down.

[Heather]

That one was confusing me because I was like whoa. He lit up real quick. But it's all yellow.

[Corey]

Yeah. That's just a warning.

[Heather]

Okay. Now on our school bus system in northern Virginia they put cameras on them.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Which they should. You shouldn't be passing a school bus. But it is kind of confusing in that kind of ambiguous middle zone where the yellow lights are going and the red lights are thinking it is.

[Corey]

And I just typically slow down. I said let me. I want people to feel bad.

[Heather]

Who sped up you. I'm. I'm 50ft away. I'm scared of moving on to the stl me about it segment. Now this is is sponsored by Cookie Design Lab who will also be a part of that 3D printing module which is how I create the digital downloads STL file. So the digital downloads dropped. I got it, I got it on Saturday and it's I love you very much. Are you the berry best mom? And it's a strawberry hand drawn in procreate which we'll be talking about in August but using Cookie Design Lab and made that throwing it in there. And then I thought oh, I want to make a stem a little bigger for you guys. So I pulled it back into Cookie Design Lab, dragged some points around and got that. If you want to use code twins you get 15 off. They have a bunch of different plan options. The seven Day one's super neat if you only need a cutter. Just a couple. Like, you do what Corey's doing. Sign up for seven days, use code Twins, get 15 off, and then just bust out an entire library. Yeah, the.

[Corey]

The great thing about it though is as you have clients ordering more custom sets and you need a. Like there's. I looked up this air. I needed an airplane holding a bear. I needed a bear flying an airplane. There was no STL files that I could find online and I couldn't get get shipped in time. So I ended up just finding like a coloring book of a bear in an airplane and bringing that into cookie design lab. And I was able to make it that way.

[Heather]

Look at how she was just crawling in a day and now she's driving to school.

[Corey]

Listen, listen, friends.

[Heather]

I'm unstoppable. They grow up so fast. We got some texting questions. We got four of them. Thank you guys for texting in. This number is 571-556-55-6-44. Corey, we have four options for you.

[Corey]

I'm gonna choose number three.

[Heather]

Number three is the area code. Seven one, six. Hi, twins. I just saw a super cool reel on Corey's mixing bowl Instagram page. It starts with what looks like a Google search, and then it goes to a bunch of her custom photos. Can you teach us how to do that? Pretty please and thank you.

[Corey]

I wish that I was getting ready to enlighten you on something that took me 52 hours to figure out, but it's not hard at all.

[Heather]

All.

[Corey]

First off, thank you so much for saying that Cap Cut is, is or was owned by TikTok. And it used to be free if you had a TikTok account. Cap cut is now paid though. But what it has that I really like, and I have Inshot, which I do like, and Cap Cut, which I also like. I like different things about them. Cap Cut has a lot of trending templates. And the templates are so easy because you plug it and you play it. Someone already made it. And then I come in and put my little photos in there. It took me roughly 4.2 minutes to make that and it was easy, breezy. And now I have a reel that I can use. I did not come up with the template. I did not design it. It already was in Cap Cut and I usually just scroll around till I find one. I like, put in some pictures and then export it and then I just

[Heather]

use it on socials. How much is cafca?

[Corey]

It is A$99 for one month. And then it goes to 9.99 a year. But they did have a yearly. Just can't remember it off the top of my head.

[Heather]

I will Google that as you talk. Cap Cut. And it's a phone app.

[Corey]

It is a phone app.

[Heather]

Yes, it is. They have an AI version, of course. So the free one, it's. You get 1080 export but limited effects. Standard is 999.99amonth. Pro is 19.99amonth. And that gives you AI 4K export and higher storage. Storage that is not cheap.

[Corey]

Yeah, the thing with the Cap Cut, the free version doesn't have the templates, so you'd be designing your own. That's why it is beneficial to have the paid one. If you're seeing those funny reels I'm posting and it's like overlaid and I. It has text like today's was, you know, someone saying, how do you run a bakery? Life and your personal life. And then someone says, I'm not. I'm really tired. Those are all made in Cafca Cut.

[Heather]

Ah, good to know. They don't have like, there's so many different versions of Cat Cut. Because there's Cap Cut on iPad, Cap Cut desktop online and mobile, and the AI one. So it looks like they have a lot more options now. But yeah, they have some different plans. Obviously going to yearly gets you that discount, but you have to use it enough to make it make sense. Thank you, 716. If you email me at heather sugarcookiemarketing.com I'll set you up with Cookie design Link lab. Okay, I'm going to read the other ones. This is from the 813. Not a winner. We could always try again next week. Hello from Florida. Question, Is it already hot there? Oh, she says, question for the podcast. Can we talk about licensing issues? I see very high profile accounts posting orders with everything from Winnie the Poo. Sorry, Winnie the Pooh, to Bluey to K Pop. K Pop Demon hunters. Sometimes struggling. Yeah, I am. I'm having a little bit of a stroke here. Is everyone just assuming these companies won't come after the bakeries? Or do you know something I don't know, or is there legit ways to use character? My own little anecdotal thing is once I had this ex, the same one who was a weirdo freak and he wanted to get into toy making. Yeah, it didn't work out much. Like, we didn't either. And we went to a toy licensing fair in New York City and it's almost Next to impossible to get licensing for things like Spider man or whatever, the Avengers. So, yeah, what you're seeing there is somebody taking a calculated risk that these companies won't come out after them. Now, I think there is the difference between a big creator decorating something and not selling it versus somebody selling something. Right. So if you upload a YouTube and you are singing somebody's popular song for fun, it's different than if you're singing it and getting them to download it. Like there's the intention there. If you download Fusion360 and you use it for personal prints, no cost. If you download Fusion360 and you sell what you create, there is a cost.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

I think a lot of times you'll

[Corey]

see big creators, so big accounts, they'll actually have brand partnerships with, let's say Bluey Live. So they create a Bluey cookie. We saw the ostrich. What's that one for the insurance company. I see Liberty Mutual. Liberty Baby or whatever, the, the ostrich guy. And someone was hand piping them. She's gotten a contract with them for that. If you see the average baker who sells locally, they are taking a gamble because they don't have the license licensure for it. That's why we always suggest maybe doing inspired B sets. So instead of doing Bluey's character, maybe you do a paw print with the color of Bluey behind the paw print. Or you do a dog bone with little dog paws on that. That's the way to get around it. It is a gamble. I had an order from Coach, but I got permission from Coach to make that order. So there are people who are getting

[Heather]

permission behind the scenes.

[Corey]

There's people who are taking the gamble and then there's big creators who are getting paid to make the content for the brand.

[Heather]

Yeah, if you're looking for validation here. No, most people are stealing the IP and using it to a profit. Right. And that's illegal. So they are taking a risk. I always say with this, this phrase, as for me and my house, we will. And then make your own decision. So just because your next door neighbor's doing it and making more money than you by doing it, they've also taken on more risk. And so high risk, high reward, no risk. No, no, no. Not as much reward. Right. So yeah, if you're just wondering. No, there's no secret sauce there. Most bakers are violating or it's an IP infringement there. And you know, you see those big things, those big sweeps on Etsy, all these shops had xyz. I forgot they do. It was. It was Labu got a swept off Etsy. So all these companies made the Labubu stuff, made their bag, and then they got a slap on the wrist from Etsy saying, hey, we could suspend your account. How much risk are you willing to take on on. Because it's no, it's not cost effective to get a license from Disney.

[Corey]

My favorite thing though is like cutter shops know that people want Grinch cutters.

[Heather]

They're like evil green guy from evil Christmas. No one's gonna search up evil green guy.

[Corey]

So the IPS can't find him necessarily because they're not searching big evil green guy around Christmas time. So the cutter shops are still taking gamble, but they're also taking a loss because they're not naming him the gr.

[Heather]

Yeah. And then some are like, this is the Grinch and I stole them by my. So yeah, that's the answer to that one. You're not. You're not insane. And there is no secret sauce there. Area code 435. Hi, twins. I'm a newbie baker from Utah, and I apologize now for the long text. I made my very first sugar cookie in October 2025. Then I joined the Facebook group and started listening to the podcast after being recommended by a friend who's been a member since November. And as of tonight, I'm officially caught up on the pod all 257 episodes.

[Corey]

How in the world.

[Heather]

You've not been listening to anything else, but I just wanted to reach out and verbally share how incredibly grateful I am for you both and for sharing your twin tolect with all of us as a quote unquote baby baker. Just from implementing what you've shared in the podcast, I've had so much more success than I would have thought possible. Within the first six months of my business, I've had four corporate orders. My fifth is already booked for June. I fully booked out to July, and after a few more orders, I will have made back everything I spent to create my business. But none of it would have been possible without you girls. I seriously cannot express how grateful I am. And I think of. I think I speak for all of us bakers when I say we truly cannot thank you enough for sharing your time and knowledge to help us reach and dream for even bigger goals for ourselves and our businesses. So I love you ladies and I hope you have a great week. Your Utah Baby Baker pages, Doe Designs. Well, that was incredibly nice, Heather.

[Corey]

You're gonna be copying and pasting that everywhere and on my tombstone.

[Heather]

Thank you. Okay, I'll etch it in myself as I lay down.

[Corey]

That is so nice. Paige, congratulations. And thanks for finding us, not finding us annoying and listening to us that much, because that was a lot of listening. Listening.

[Heather]

I think it can be said here that a newbie baker. So you want to call yourself a baby baker? You can play with the big leagues of established bakers if you take the marketing shortcuts for it.

[Corey]

Yeah, yeah. If you want to do the long and hard con, like, I don't want to post in there. There's someone that's been there around a long time. Well, your business will be slower. But if you're like, hey, I'm getting in there in it to win it, gonna throw my mitt in the ring, My mitt in the oven. You can get a lot of sales and I'm so proud of you. To almost pay off all your initial investment, I mean, before the year is up, is tremendous. And congratulations. Me and Heather can talk, obviously, till our mouths fall off, but you taking the information and implementing it, that's. That's the real applause. Right?

[Heather]

257 episodes. Right? It wasn't a small chunk of time. Why am I having a stroke? Why am I combining? I don't know.

[Corey]

I don't know. You're eating every word up when you

[Heather]

said bear Flui and Pooh Bear. Hey, I'm so sorry. You started off with something in this podcast.

[Corey]

A butt guster.

[Heather]

A little bit of strokes on both sides. Final text. Hi twins. Love listening to the podcast every week while decorating. I'm located in Southern Maryland. Oh, hello. Oh, hello. I love Southern Maryland and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions regarding pricing. I know you pricing varies so much depending on where you live, but I'm finding recently I have a lot of inquiries for quotes and then crickets. I know that my prices are higher than many around me, but I'm also confident in my cookies as far as taste and decorating. I can't lower my prices, or at least I don't want to. The only thing I can think from seeing what others do is offering plain, basic ones at a lower price to go with the more pricey, detailed ones. Thanks for all you do. Yeah, I. I agree, but you can take it. Can I say a tip? Yes.

[Corey]

I do a cookie closet clean out mid summer and what I do is all the cookies that I've collected that were either for pre sales, you know, samples, things I just made for fun for holidays. I. I actually freeze them and then mid summer I do a giveaway and I use these Ms. Cookie packaging bags and they're like random cookies in a bag and it's called like misprint cookies or something like that. Something like where they're just extra cookies and it's my way to give the taste. If my cookies taste good and that's going to get me the sales, they've got to be able to taste them because the price is what scaring them. So the taste is what needs to sell them. And this is the way that I actually get my cookies into hands of folks around me. So then they can be like, oh, I tasted them, that was really, really good. And you know I technically ask for like reviews based on the taste and you know, the presentation. So it's two birds, one stone. That might be a great way to get your fancy product in the hands of people and then sell them on what you know that is really good and not have to take your pricing away.

[Heather]

Yeah, I'll say as the non baker but the definite eater. You guys, your cookies all taste very different to me. I love them. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. If it's a cookie and it's going to my mouth, I'm going to love it. But there is a lot of swing in with sure guys, how thick your dough is and how crunchy you make the cookie and what you put in the topping, the extracts and things.

[Corey]

So if you think that's going to be your sales point winner, getting those cookies in some hands might be a great thing. If you go to in person networking groups, bring your business card on the cookie or something that shows your business and you get them in 12 more hands of people. That could be like my taste.

[Heather]

The difference, I really like those. If you say Southern Maryland, if that's Eastern Shore, I would do the main street collabs. You guys got some real cool places down there too. Yeah, where all the car shows are but it's like forever away. But I really like if that's where it is. It's a really cool place to go you guys. Corey had shared a post I made two years ago. That's funny. And it's like don't stop posting character faces. Anyways, it's gone viral for whatever reason it might, but that's what the endless pings on the computer is.

[Corey]

It has tickled the fancy of the Algos.

[Heather]

The Alos have blessed us once again but disappeared into the night forever, making us wonder as they do. Our sponsors are very important to this podcast. Without Them there is no 258 episodes. So please, if you support them and use these codes. If you use these codes, you're not stealing from them. You're actually signaling that this is a good place for them to be. So the podcast keeps going.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Cookie Design Lab. The code is twins. Actually the code for all these is twins though. Nice. We finally got it. We should keep it twins. So the code for Cookie Design lab is 15% off. The code is twins. Bakety Bake is a royal bag batch meringue powder of your dreams. I find that when people try it, they rarely switch back. Love it.

[Corey]

Been using it for years.

[Heather]

Code twins. 10% off. Daisy makes is the shop behind what's Popping Con. But she's also how Corey's been able to make cake pops and now it's a new version of the technology. I think a lot of sugar cookie bakers tried cake pops and I like ptsd. Yes. Try it again with the Daisy man makes tools.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

The mold set that you're going to have a great experience it seems.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Love it. All the tears go away. She dries them personally. She shows up to your house and dries your tears. That's what she does. Code Twins at Daisy Makes. It gets you a discount as well. Primera Eddie. We were supposed to interview Jennifer today. I'll see if we can get her back on here. No discount code. Wish we could. They don't run discount codes but it's such a cool tool. Corey got an order for coach and it seems like a lot of bakers have gotten this order. So coaches doing this promotion, partnering with bakers. Love that. This is an trend now for big company. Yeah.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

But Corey had Eddie step in and did kind of like a 3D, a 2D and a flat version. And it was a very interesting set and she wasn't crying at the end of it. Yeah.

[Corey]

It was cool to tie in printed with non printed with totally hand piped. So the order looks super unique because it had all three factors in there. But it was super still custom.

[Heather]

I like it. And then Bosch Neutral is not a sponsor but they are an affiliate and they very nice. They have code sugar cookies. Now they're dropping a unique product in two days. I can't post about it until the 30th. I'm not sure if it's for if bakers are going to love it or not, but I'll post about it so you guys can see it yourself. It doesn't, it doesn't work for the discount because it's a new Pl. It's a new product, but I just. People like it. I'm ex. I'm excited to see my 20th for the year, for the day, for. I don't know. It's overwhelming me. Is this cat I got his name's Bean. They named him Bean. He looks like a bean, so I'm keeping the bean name. He's a minuet munchkin, which means he has the short legs and he's a Persian face, but the, the breeder got the really flat face so he looks weird in an adorable way. He's a cutie patootie. So Cory and I drove up to Past New York City on Friday and picked him up and she. He sat in her lap in the five and a half hours hours back.

[Corey]

Yeah, I've come up with some names. When he sits in your lap, he's a beanie baby. When he follows you into a room, he's a bean stalk.

[Heather]

When he's being bad, he's disobedient.

[Corey]

Benient. When he's climbing on things, he's not a. He's not a lima bean, he's a clima bean.

[Heather]

Here's the interesting thing about being I've never had a cat on raw food before, but this breeder was big into raw feeding. She says, and she finds out wrong, that if you feed kibble, which is what my other cat only wants to eat, you're drying them out from the inside. So she says my cat Bean doesn't even need water because there's so much water content in raw fed food. And I've never seen something so little eat so much eats almost his body weight. Every, every time there's a plate of food in front of him, she was like, just let him graze. I said, he's not grazing, he's eating the whole plate. She's like, oh, yeah, sorry. He's. He's one of those ones that eats a lot. I said, he's eating me out of house and home.

[Corey]

I wonder if she's saying let him graze because other cats she had were also eating with him. So he wasn't eating the full plate.

[Heather]

He's eating at an unprecedented consumption rate. He's a.

[Corey]

He's a growing bean, a bean stock,

[Heather]

but the upward so that has been my twin of he is the same breed as the one I have. However, he's so small he can't tackle stairs and the big ones tackling the stairs, which is funny. I used to call him a little cat, but now he looks gargantuan compared to. To Bean.

[Corey]

It has told me that I no longer want any more pets.

[Heather]

However, if it doesn't work out with me and Bean, Corey will have a bean.

[Corey]

Well, my son loves Heather's cats, which is unfortunate, so he's going to watch them. But I know my son wants another cat, but we've had two cats that have passed away, and I just. My heart cannot handle in my cleaning back cannot bend over and listen, Linda,

[Heather]

I needed that logic on Thursday before Friday. So I. I did the cats when I was younger.

[Corey]

Like, they old with me.

[Heather]

You get them when you're older. I literally thought that Munch, you know, he lives out here in West Virginia now, is like, sad that I'm the only thing he has to play with. So I thought you. Are you.

[Corey]

Are you thinking I'd be happier your clients and your cats?

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Corey]

You are putting on to your cat.

[Heather]

Thank for your client or your cat. Yeah. So now, I don't know. They just, they're. Bean wants to play with anything inanimate or otherwise. Munch is like, what did you. You just do?

[Corey]

I had told Heather that my two cats were not friends together. I was their companion and they both wanted attention for me, I was their attention points. So instead of getting two cats that played with each other, I had to now play twice as much because two cats wanted my attention. I said, heather, this is the gamble.

[Heather]

Listen. Is the gamble. I gambled at Charlestown races and slots and might have lost. Yeah, I gotta find him. I. So the kitten, unfortunately, she was like, if he's not locked up, he'll poop somewhere. But if he's locked up, he'll poop where he needs to. And she was not wrong. And so he has poo, pooed and

[Corey]

pee peed in three different places that were not correct.

[Heather]

Correct.

[Corey]

Is that correct?

[Heather]

That is correct that he's not correct. But I didn't, you know, she's like, do not leave him. Do not let him play without you looking. And every time I. I blink, he'd be like, I sorry I had to poop over there. I was like, shoot. So, like, did you just have to be stricter?

[Corey]

The craziest thing to me is you like going places not in your house. So if he can't play without you looking, are you gonna be staring at him all the time and never going

[Heather]

to places other than possibly. But she's like, if you leave, just lock them up. She said, And I thought, you know, I thought the take was interesting. She said, when you get a Cat and you let him have free Ren in your house thinking that's the kind of thing to do. You've just taught the cat he doesn't need you at all. And you've created an independent cat. She said when you put him up when you're done and come back, you know she's not. I mean she's not saying leave for the day, come back and unlock them. They're going to think you're the Lord savior. Like you're. They're think they're the.

[Corey]

The prison.

[Heather]

Get out, do your ramps, your one hour day. So no, I'm trying to find that kind of rhythm. But yeah, I was like let me just step away. Oh, I shouldn't stepped away.

[Corey]

Well, that's your hell to handle.

[Heather]

Do you have a twin or twint a tip or something you're into right now or a twint?

[Corey]

Do I. I don't know. I've been with you exclusively the last two weeks. We've been hip to hip in the. In the vehicles.

[Heather]

I've never traveled so much eating and sleeping the gym. So. Okay, here's one. Corey wanted to increase her protein intake. So now since GLP1's are thing, there's a lot of protein being added. New stuff, right?

[Corey]

Yeah, I saw a protein cereal the other day.

[Heather]

Yeah, well, yeah, I was in the protein cereal aisle yesterday. Like there's all this protein being added in very weird places. Great. We need more protein. So we were obviously a huge fan of Olive Garden. So I went and downloaded their menu to see what the highest protein, lowest calorie thing and it's their what chicken. It's the chicken margarita which is just chicken. I mean it's pretty good for chicken. That's grilled chicken, cheese and pesto and then like an onion.

[Corey]

Uncommonly large amount of broccoli.

[Heather]

Right. So if you're wondering what the healthiest thing you could probably get at Olive Garden, it is that chicken.

[Corey]

Unbeknownst to me though, the chicken ravioli that I always get actually has a pretty chicken ravioli.

[Heather]

But I think it's cheese ravioli. Oh, sorry.

[Corey]

Yeah, cheese ravioli definitely. No, chicken has a lot of more protein than I thought because. Because cheese does have protein in it.

[Heather]

So if you're trying to be healthy, unhealthy, that would be the tip. Is that chicken? What was it called again? Chicken what chicken? Margarita. Margarita, which was over 50 grams of protein. Two chicken, two full chicken breasts.

[Corey]

I mean it was. You were trying to shove that chicken down there.

[Heather]

Yeah, it was, it was. It was just the whole task.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Okay. I hope that leaves you guys hungry.

[Corey]

Yeah, I'm starving. My stomach is growling.

[Heather]

Some chicken Margarita?

[Corey]

I think I might.

[Heather]

Okay, I'll see. We will see you next week. Those of you who applied to be on the podcast, thank you. I'll be reaching out this week. Bless you guys.

[Corey]

Can't wait. Can't wait.