271. Baking it Down - Cookier Interview - Taylor Gandolfi

Summary

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Baking it Down with Sugar Cookie Marketing 🍪

Episode 271: Cookier Interview - Taylor Gandolfi
Hosts: Heather & Corrie Miracle
Guest: Taylor Gandolfi (Chicago-area cookier & UX designer)
Date: July 28, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a vibrant and insightful interview with Taylor Gandolfi, a cookier from Lake Bluff, Illinois, who has been running her cookie business for less than a year. Uniquely, Taylor also works full-time in UX/product design in the public sector, specializing in AI-driven projects. Taylor details how her tech background influences her bakery marketing and workflows, discusses how AI can be thoughtfully integrated into the cottage baking business, and shares her journey from new mom seeking a creative outlet to launching a fast-growing, personality-driven cookie brand.

The conversation covers Taylor’s approach to customer experience, her use of “lean” business experiments, leveraging AI without losing her personal touch, and practical ways other bakers can try these methods themselves. The episode is packed with actionable marketing strategies, candid business lessons, and naturally fun banter from the hosts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor’s Unique Background & Entry into Cookier Life

• Location & Background: Chicago suburbs (Lake Bluff); product design for public sector digital products.

• Creative Roots: Lifelong artist, previously did commission pet paintings; switched to cookies for a creative, therapeutic outlet during postpartum anxiety.

• Initial Growth: First sold cookies through partnerships with her daughter’s preschool, donating a percentage back.

  "My journey into cookie decorating comes from a lifelong artistic foundation... I previously had a commission painting side hustle—painting whimsical pet portraits... Unfortunately, that became unfeasible with babies, so baking cookies filled that creative outlet."
  — Taylor (08:08)

2. Customer Experience: Lean Experiments & Human-Centered Design

Lessons from a Customer Miscommunication

• Learning from Loss: Lost a large graduation order due to lack of follow-up; led to re-examination of her customer communication.

  “She was like, ‘Oh, I thought you ghosted me. I ordered from someone else.’ So I quickly pivoted… I ended up showing her the cookies, and she bought half of them at a discounted rate… I really need to improve my customer experience.”
  — Taylor (15:13)

• Iterative Improvement: Developed lean, easy-to-implement practices (e.g., order confirmation messages, using templates in Canva, clustering FAQs and policies).

Applying Product Design/UX Principles

• Framework for Problem Solving: Prioritizes solving biggest customer problems; not afraid to pivot quickly.

• Ego Check: Human-centered design means setting aside ego, looking for friction points, and optimizing.

  “Take the ego out of it… something you might do when interacting with a business is going to be different from people you might be selling to.”
  — Taylor (20:46)

3. Balancing AI Tools & Human Creativity

AI as a Background Tool, Not a Replacement

• Attitude Toward AI: Uses AI for efficiency (“the best AI is the one you don’t see”), but keeps the human touch front and center.

• Examples of AI Use:

  • Generating and visualizing cookie design options to avoid wasted time/ingredients.
  • Structuring customer communications (email templates, FAQs).
  • Streamlining painting/production workflows.
  • Inspiration for creative blocks.

  “AI is like the smartest PhD student you’ll meet, but with the common sense of a five-year-old… It’s up to you to bring your personal taste.”
  — Taylor (25:52)

  “A really good trick is to talk to [AI] not type—because you’ll be more verbose and natural."
  — Taylor (29:45)

Prompts & Frameworks

• C.A.R.E. Framework for AI Prompts:
  • Context: Be specific about style, audience, occasion.
  • Action: Clearly state what you want AI to do.
  • Rules: Tell it what to avoid and what to do.
  • Examples: Give screenshots or referents for “not this, but that.”
• Never Copy and Paste: Edits all AI-generated writing to be in her own voice.

The Human “Sandwich”

• Best Practice: Human → AI (for organizing/speed/iteration) → Human (for final decisions/creativity).

4. AI Slop, Dead Internet, & Ethical Considerations

• AI Slop: Risks in overusing AI for customer-facing content—customers can spot “AI slop” (generic, soulless flyers/posts).

• Dead Internet Theory: Concerns about AI crowding out authentic human content; consensus is that AI should be a tool, not the creator.

  “The world is craving human-created products and really tired of AI slop… AI is not going to replace cookiers, but it is a tool to help you do your best job.”
  — Taylor (10:54)

5. Marketing Experiments, Pricing, and Finding Your Niche

• Early Success: Partnership with preschool (20% back on sales) helped grow a local audience and lead to referrals.
• Pricing Lessons: Adds margin to partnership sales to cover the donation.
• Lead Sources: Facebook groups and word-of-mouth are strongest sources; tracks lead origins in a spreadsheet.
• Standing Out: Emphasizes unique creative style (hand-painted, artistic cookies) rather than commodity products.

6. Practical Marketing & Business Tips

• Lean Experiments: Try small changes, measure feedback, iterate/scaling what works (e.g., improved customer updates, simplified design offers).

• Efficiency Tools: Templates, FAQs, and “lean communication” (minimum effort for maximum clarity).

• Avoiding Burnout: Only learns one new thing per order; all cookie income is for “vacation fund” (creating a positive financial goal).

  “One thing my AI suggested—maybe I’m learning too much each set. So now I focus on one new technique per order, so I enjoy the process, not overwhelm myself.”
  — Taylor (52:20)

• On Deposits: Flexibility in payment; doesn’t always collect deposits to allow cash customers (a unique differentiator among bakers).

7. Fun Lightning Q&A — Taylor's Favorites & Opinions

• Favorite Cookie Creator: Sweet Ams—“pillar” of the community (65:10).
• Go-to App (Non-AI): Canva; uses for both cookie business and side graphic design work (57:17).
• AI of Choice: Uses both Claude (for synthesis, work) and ChatGPT for cookie-related tasks; does pay for premium (47:36).
• Biggest Marketing Challenge: Vulnerability of putting herself “out there” with personal videos, but working toward efficient short-form video (61:26).
• Cookie Dream: Keep cookies fun and part-time, doing it with her daughter as a bonding activity, and keeping all profit for enjoyable travel (53:43).
• Cookie Wish: Wants to be commissioned for a Chicago Bears set (54:46).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Getting Started:

  “The secret to getting ahead is just getting started.” — Heather, quoting Mark Twain (02:16)

• On Human-Centered Design:

  “You are not your customer. …Take the ego out of it.” — Taylor (20:46)

• On AI Use:

  “AI is a tool. I don’t tell my clients I use Canva, either.” — Taylor (46:20)

  “AI can give you all the things in the world, but it can never replace what your personal taste is.” — Taylor (29:45)

• On Burnout Prevention:

  “If the moment it’s not fun anymore, I don’t want to do it... I want to grow responsibly in a way that I’m not killing myself, and just learn new things.” — Taylor (52:00)

• On Pricing and Value:

  “Your time is valuable… if people can’t afford cookies, they can buy them at Walmart!” — Taylor (66:49)

• On Marketing that Works:

  “I tried a ‘this or that’ post showing two different styles. I got a ton of comments from people I didn’t know, customers, over 100 new followers—because the algorithm favored my post due to engagement.” — Taylor (63:13)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:12: Hosts introduce Taylor, highlight her tech/AI background
• 04:45: Taylor’s personal/professional backstory and entry into cookies
• 07:07: Preschool partnerships & the value-add of “give back” offers
• 13:12: Lean experiment: Learning from customer miscommunication/missed order
• 16:57: Implementing easy communication improvements; use of deposit as differentiator
• 21:29: Human-centered design; setting ego aside for customer-centric business
• 25:23: AI’s role in business, importance of “invisible” AI
• 28:00: Taylor’s C.A.R.E. framework for AI prompts
• 32:29: How to use AI for content/copy without sounding robotic
• 33:50: Iterating with AI for cookie design visualization
• 38:17: “Dead internet”/AI slop discussion
• 43:08: Technology adaptation parallels (cell phones, AI, and business evolution)
• 46:09: Secret use of AI—when, how, and whether to share with customers
• 47:36: Taylor’s preferred AI tools (Claude, ChatGPT)
• 49:30: “Reward hacking” in AI with cautionary tales
• 53:43: Cookie income goals: “Vacation fund,” keeping baking enjoyable
• 54:46: Dream order: Chicago Bears theme
• 57:17: Physical and digital tools Taylor can’t live without
• 60:22: Taylor’s biggest lead source: Facebook (tracked via spreadsheet)
• 61:26: Vulnerability in marketing; video content & engagement strategies
• 63:13: ‘This or that’ engagement post success story
• 65:13: Favorite cookie content creator: Sweet Ams
• 66:49: Taylor’s final advice: value your time, charge what you’re worth

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Embrace “Lean” Experiments: Small, quick changes to the process can have outsized effects. Learn, adapt, and scale only what works.
• Customer Experience Matters: Don’t assume; clarify with customers through simple, proactive communication, and accept feedback as opportunities for improvement.
• AI is a Tool, Not a Replacement: Use AI for efficiency, inspiration, and admin—but always inject your personal touch and judgment to stand out.
• Be Transparent, Flexible, and Data-Informed: Flexibility with deposits/payments allows access to more clients; track where your leads come from for smarter marketing.
• Don’t Overwhelm Yourself: If you’re new, don’t try to learn everything at once—try one new thing per order.
• Charge Your Worth: Trust your value and don’t be afraid to increase your prices as your business grows.

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For More Information

• Find Taylor’s Work: Referenced via the Sugar Cookie Marketing Wednesday newsletter.
• Resources & Classes: sugarcookiemarketing.com
• Next Bootcamp: Procreate for Cookies (August), Google Business Profile (September), Newsletters (October).

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Final Word

"Rising tides lift all ships."
— Taylor (68:47)

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For bakers, marketers, and creative business owners, this episode offers a fresh, modern look at the intersection of tech, heart, and icing—reminding us all to blend efficiency with authenticity as we grow our sweet little empires.

Transcript

[Corey]

Hey Corey.

[Heather]

It's the podcast and we have a podcast guest. Just like the last podcast. We film this, we record this out of order. So Cory and I are going to pretend we don't know what just happened.

[Corey]

But I do want to give you a little taste test. If you're listening. You think this is just like all the other 5 million podcasts that we've done. Taylor is a unique perspective when it comes to cookie decorating because she's just under a year. November will be her one year anniversary. But she actually works a day job that utilizes a lot of AI and artificial intelligence. She's in UX design. Heather, just explain what UX design is. It's more of a. You know when you go to log

[Heather]

into your bank account, right and you naturally look to the right side for this and to the left side for a menu and to the top menu for various account stuff. And you know that your profile has your password settings. That is UX user experience. And when UX is out of whack, you find yourself confused as where things naturally would be and when UX is intact like you said, nobody notices it.

[Corey]

UX design sounds like, oh we need a big degree for that. My job would never entail it. It actually is in every single job. It's just a different degree. So you as a bakery business have a UX design that you utilize to make your customers happy. Whether it be a follow up email, a form to help them on the form where like I've had Heather move. It used to be that you had to fill out all the information and then my calendar was at the bottom. I, I found that that was frustrating to customers because they filled out all the information, took the time and then their date was grayed out so we moved that to the top. That is user and generated design.

[Heather]

Yeah, user experience. So what we have Taylor who has a day job and then she uses the cookie business as her side job. She'll be our interview and before we jump into that, we're the Sugar Cookie Marketing Group. You can find this all on our website sugarcookiemarketing.com so any of the things I talk about here, if you want to snag past Wednesday Wednesday newsletters, they're there if you wann upcoming in form of events or these boot camps that we talk about or collabs when we do them which we've tabled on for a minute. You can also find that on the sugarcookie marketing.com website including I'll be talking more about the vendy blendy in the next couple weeks and then months and then it'll be the end of the year and then it'll be next year and then it'll be the following. Don't say it.

[Corey]

Time is rushing by.

[Heather]

Do you have a quote for us? A quote? Yeah. So it's kind of speaking back to just getting started, right? Because there's, you know, Taylor's like when she had applied to be on the podcast, she was like, well, I'm not sure if I have anything to add. I'm new. But we're like, that's everything to add. You're new, you're hungry, you're fresh, you want this. You're not jaded by years of clients beating you up. So my Mark Twain. The secret to getting ahead is just getting started, which is something I take myself. Every time I do something I'm like, I'm. I suck. I'm a loser.

[Corey]

Oh yeah.

[Heather]

Have to be a loser to be a winner.

[Corey]

I got. I gotta be a loser to be a winner.

[Heather]

So what's coming up is Corey just dropped the lemon cookie class kit. We're back to our beginner. Our six cookies. Four icings.

[Corey]

Four ish icings. Four ish icing.

[Heather]

This one did have four icings.

[Corey]

The next one will have five. I couldn't, I couldn't squeeze it out with four.

[Heather]

Well, you squeeze the lemons, which is all that matters. So the lemon cookie class kit is everything you need to plan, promote and teach an in person cookie class. Just add you the dough and order the cutters, which we include the links for. The Procreate bootcamp is next week. It's getting started with designing sets in Procreate, which you need an iPad and an Apple pencil. And I'll tell you which app to download during that bootcamp. And then I am working and I got Corey's approval on it on my, my digital downloads series. So it's. It's these seven downloadable printable files. I'm doing a thank you home care team. So my last one is thank you to the trash guys. This month is thank you to the mailman. And I know everyone's like male women and trash women. Okay, whatever. Thank you to the people keeping the house moving forward. So I just got court approved the mail person one. It's super, it's super cute. Yeah, Be dropping it later today. Super adorable. So we're going to jump into the interview with Taylor and then after that we'll go through kind of our housekeeping stuff. So on the count of Three. Uno, dos, tres. Here we go. Taylor, it is so great to have our second podcast interviewee. I gotta, I gotta tattle on myself. Taylor has submitted the form to be featured on the podcast last week. And I said, hey, I got you now that, like, you're into this, could I get you on the next week? Because I really liked what she had sent in her application. So, Taylor, tell them who you are and then I'm going to read what you submitted last week. So tell us like your backstory, where you're located, anything about them. Kind of like just to give us some backstory and then I'll jump into reading this.

[Taylor]

Yeah, sure. So I'm in the Chicago suburbs. My suburb is called Lake Bluff. I'm about to, you know, an hour outside of Chicago. My background is in product design for the public sector. So my experience is designing digital products for public services. So the products that I work on are not profit driven, it's more mission driven. And yeah, so that's one reason why I really liked the podcast is because I'm, you know, I'm not used to working on things that are. The goal is to make money.

[Heather]

So.

[Taylor]

So, yeah. And I was postpartum after my second baby and I was really having a hard time with postpartum anxiety. And I've always loved to draw and paint and be creative as long as I can remember. And I was. I would really enjoy watching TikTok videos of people flooding.

[Heather]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Taylor]

There's something like very satisfying about like a very smooth flood. So I was like, you know what, maybe I can do that. Maybe that would be like a nice little hobby to get me off of my phone. Doom scrolling and Yeah, I mean, at first, I'm sure as a lot of other hobby bakers, I was just doing it for friends and family. And then my older daughter, she's in preschool, I was making some cookies for her preschool class and she was like, oh, do you sell these? So I first started really selling. I did like a partnership with the preschool where I would be like, you know, Easter, you know, pre sale or something like that.

[Heather]

Oh, nice.

[Taylor]

You got.

[Corey]

You hit the ground running. You had a partnership right off the bat. That's a dream idea.

[Taylor]

Yeah. And I would do 20% back to the preschool. Nice. I only did it really for Easter and for May, I did teacher appreciation and Mother's Day.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

So, yeah, I mean, next year. Yeah. Upcoming in September, I think I'll probably do like a back to school and, you know, Halloween. I'll do that too. Really? Excited about it.

[Heather]

So sure.

[Corey]

Have you seen like part So a lot of us have never been able to crack the code on partnerships so that it just kind of, you know, happened to you. Do you find that the 20 back to the mothership is worth it when it comes to sales? Like do they bring enough people to your audience to your pre sales that 20? It's like a no brainer.

[Taylor]

Oh yeah. I mean honestly I do charge about 20 more than I normally do to even nice. And I've gotten several orders from other preschool moms for, you know, baptisms, birthdays, things like that. So it's also helps me kind of like grow, you know who my audience is. And I think people really like to give back to the preschool too.

[Heather]

That's nice.

[Taylor]

And yeah, all the way around.

[Heather]

Really does well.

[Taylor]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Heather]

I gotta redo her backstory. She's got this crazy start into the cookies and it's not what you expect. You couldn't possibly guess it. She submitted this.

[Taylor]

She said but background really is tech and you know I love my job in tech but you can't do like

[Heather]

a couple reapers here just even judging by these few paragraphs. But let me read them and then we're going to run through this. My journey into cookie decorating comes from a lifelong artistic foundation. I love to draw and paint since I can remember I wanted to be an art major in college. My parents steered me toward user experience now UX design degree. But here's the funny part. Before cookies, I previously had a commission painting side hustle. Painting whimsical pet portraits. Primarily a customer's cat playing the drums for his favorite band. A dog playing for a customer's favorite hockey team or a fancy dog drinking a cocktail. Unfortunately, this side hustle became unfeasible when I started having babies. I have gone to see some of these photos. Yeah, you're gonna have to show us

[Corey]

some of these on my website.

[Taylor]

I think I sent you my website so I have like a design portfolio website that I just kind of like put my cookies on the end of it just because those are really low.

[Heather]

Can I give the in the newsletter can I show them one of these whimsical pets?

[Taylor]

Oh, go for it. Yeah.

[Heather]

Which one takes longer?

[Corey]

A dozen of decorated cookies or a cat playing a drum set Painting oh,

[Taylor]

the cat playing a drum set. And you don't make as much and there's no dehydrator with just made it up so you really have to wait and the timing is really important with and that's what became really hard is. You know if like a painting is really wet you can't iterate on it. You have to kind of wait until it's like a middle stage.

[Heather]

Yeah interesting cookies.

[Taylor]

You know, just pop it in the dehydrator and you can do speed that puppy up.

[Corey]

We're on.

[Taylor]

We're on a roll.

[Heather]

Love this. Just reading on. I picked up cookie decorating when I was struggling with postpartum anxiety with my second baby. I found it to be a wonderful creative outlet, very therapeutic and it got me away from doom scrolling. I decorated a few sets for my preschoolers class and the preschool director saw them and was very encour encouraging. She approached me with the idea to partner with a preschool for pre sales and give 20% of the proceeds back to the preschool for from there I was able to grow my portfolio, get other custom orders from preschool moms and grow my social media. I also work full time as a product designer with specialized experience in AI tools, which is why I loved your application because I think it's a great thing. As a product designer, my day to day is listening to users or customers, honing in on what they need and translating that into concepts for digital experiences while mitigating risk immediately Hired if I had a position, I'd hire you based off of I use that same framework with my customers when designing cookies. I believe for the podcast I could provide a lot of insight to listeners on how to scale human centered design practices into their cookie business. I can also speak to cookies how to leverage tech and AI tools to help with their process example, run lean experiments to mitigate risk and then scale what works. I love this. Finally she says, as someone who works with AI, I believe that the world is craving human created products and really tired of AI slopes. With that said, AI is not something that will replace cookies, but a tool to help cook years do the best job possible when embraced. That last sentence is exactly, exactly what I think the messaging around this kind of has to be. I was listening to a TikTok this weekend. It wasn't doom scrolling. I was positively scrolling. And someone said anyone who does see the optimism in embracing AI is called a sloptimistic. Call me a sloppy.

[Corey]

I think it's so interesting. A lot of bakers hear the two letters AI and they totally put their arms up. I don't want to listen anymore. I'm anti AI. I don't want to hear any more about it. The problem is is now more and more apps like if you like Canva when you're in Canva, I have the pop ups. Like do you want AI? Do you want me to help you? I'm right here. Do you need me? And if I log into my Gmail account, it's saying, hey, do you want us to make this sound like you didn't just graduate third grade? It's, it's literally everywhere. But I see so many people are off put by it and the AI flyers, the overuse of AI in community groups, I can see where people are like, ah, we want the human touchback in it. That's why it's so interesting to get your perspective. AI can be a tool that can really create more efficient business practices. You have less time that you're focusing on, you know, using your electronics. It can help you in the back end by sticking still having you the

[Heather]

face of your business.

[Corey]

And people buy from those they know like and trust. But it doesn't mean that you can't be aided by AI in the background, especially if it's helping your business. I agree. You shouldn't like make AI the forefront of your business because we want people to know the difference between me and the baker down the road. You know, I'm the secret ingredient in my business.

[Heather]

Well, I have a little extra dash. Of course, if you didn't know.

[Corey]

If you want my secret recipe, it's right here. You're looking at it.

[Heather]

So Taylor, you said you're running these lean experiments. I would love to know like how you're like how you're trying it out. Saying like this works, this doesn't. And then you mentioned a couple times mitigate risk. And I would love to know what you mean by that.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

So I'm going to start by in product design, we want to be solving problems and that's how we prioritize our work as tech organizations. It's the same way, you know, like Netflix, Facebook, Canva, like any tech organization really operates. So you want to be solving your biggest problems first and also pivoting when a bigger problem does come up. Totally okay and normal to pivot and be comfortable pivoting. So I was really, you know, the problem I was solving was around differentiating myself from other cookiers and you know, trying to bring something different that other cookiers in my area weren't bringing. So I was really focusing on painting and watercolor painting on my cookies because I do have that painting background. But then it came up during graduation that my customer experience could have used some improvement. So interesting somebody said this. Well, I think probably like most cookiers listening I got, like, a thousand orders for graduation. And my process was, somebody reaches out on a date, theme, whatever. I. And then I immediately put it in my spreadsheet. And then once it's spreadsheet, I'm like, good to go. So I had someone reach out. She wanted, I think, six dozen cookies. Two different colleges for a joint graduation party. And, you know, I was like, okay, like, what date? And she told me the date. Like, you know, are you available? Then I was like, yeah, I can do that. So she went to my spreadsheet, and I did not talk to her again until when I had the cookies done.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

And I was like, hey, I got some cookies for you. You know, this is pickup information. And she was like, oh, I thought you ghosted me. I ordered from somebody else.

[Heather]

No way.

[Corey]

Six dozen.

[Taylor]

And so I quickly pivoted from, you know, learning how to paint to improving my customer experience so this doesn't happen again. I ended up showing her the cookies, and she bought half of them at a discounted rate because she liked them so much.

[Corey]

So, hey, you saved it.

[Heather]

At least you.

[Corey]

That was at least three dozen to a new home.

[Taylor]

You know, I gave the rest to my family, and they. They loved their Michigan State and Spillman College, so it worked out fine. So from there, I'm like, okay, I really need to improve my customer experience, because if this customer is having this problem, chances are somebody else is, too.

[Heather]

Sure, sure.

[Taylor]

So, you know, looking back at my conversation with her, even though I was the last one to send a message, you know, she asked me over a date, I said yes. Like, what I did was not aligning with her expectations as a customer. So after that, for my next graduation order, which was literally next week, I followed up with. I had two different orders, and I sent them a message, like, before I started baking, and I was like, hey, just. This is what I have planned for you. I just typed out, I'm gonna do, like, a circle shape with a logo and this and that and, you know, are my ideas. Let me know what you think. And it was just really an easy, lean way to just confirm it to people. Know.

[Heather]

Yeah, I like. I like that you keep using the word lean because you're like, what's the minimum? What's the minimum?

[Taylor]

I can do something really easy. I can do that.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Without over complicating it. Me, as somebody who absolutely loves to overcomplicate things, I love this. I'm taking this back.

[Taylor]

I got really positive feedback from my customers from just doing that, and they were like, oh, we love your ideas. And one of the customers initially. Well, I typically do five to six designs per order because I'm just like, have so many ideas because I just love doing this so much. It might be a little too much and I might scale it down, but that's a different conversation.

[Heather]

Get it out of the way.

[Taylor]

So, yeah, at first he was like, oh, we don't need six, you know, maybe two, like, it's fine. But then I shared my ideas and he was like, do your thing. We're so excited about this. And then so again, really lean, easy way to mitigate that problem from happening again. I also think maybe collecting a deposit would help. I do have and, like, you know, people collect deposits and it's really helpful for them. I do think it discourages people from paying in cash, which is an assumption. And I love when people pay in cash. So that's the reason why I haven't done that. And, you know, maybe they do the deposit in cash or in, you know, Venmo or whatever and pay the rest in cash. I don't know. But I just haven't. I haven't had the need to collect a deposit yet. So I haven't.

[Corey]

That's a differentiator, right? In and of itself, a lot of bakers don't do that so that you have that opportunity that someone, you know. Cookies are, you know, an investment and they are a luxury item. But a lot of people, you know, are working paycheck to paycheck. They don't always have the funds available at the time of booking. So that is a differentiator that I see works for a lot of bakers. You know, even if that's something you keep moving on, take a smaller deposit. I like that.

[Heather]

Like with every great thing, it's a pass off. There's nothing that's 100%. No. So, you know, people. I take a deposit, I do payment up front, which is what we preach. But at the pass office, you're not getting somebody who's like, can I? Do you know those people who are like, well, I'm not sure if you're going to rip me off, so let's do, like, this thing. You were able to secure that. So at the end of the day, Corey says she hates when people say that, but at the end of the

[Corey]

day, no, I say it all the time. That's why I love it when the day ends.

[Heather]

When the day ends, you have the strategy. And we're always talking about standing out with between other bakers, and you kind of see And I was saying, we like to look through your Bambi new doughy eyes is that bakers who have been burned typically move to the full payment at time of booking to reserve it. You know, I'm not going to get taken again. I'm not going to be screwed over. But then you have this, like, hey, like, I'm willing to take this risk to secure the order. I'm a little bit more flexible. I've not been burned so much.

[Taylor]

I also like it.

[Corey]

I want to compliment you on the fact that you did have the last. Not the last laugh, the last point of contact with the lady. And, you know, you could go back and be like, well, look right here. I said, yes, I take your order. Why did you think I wouldn't? That you looked internally and said, hey, you know, that wasn't enough for this customer. You know, thank goodness she bought the three dozen and my family enjoyed the other three dozen. Let me go back to the drawing board to see. That's huge. I see that a lot of bakers pass that up and they want to say, it wasn't me. It's always the customer. They shouldn't have done that. Not on me. That you could take that internally, which is hard to do, let me tell you.

[Taylor]

That is because of my human centered design background. And that is kind of like the core of what human centered design is. And I know, I've heard you all say this on the podcast. Just, you are not your customer. So, you know, something you might do when interacting with a business is going to be different from people you might be selling to. And again, I said this before, if, like, this was this lady's expectations, chances are it's going to be somebody else's too. So, you know, just with customer interactions and things like that and how you approach your business, just take the ego out of it and, you know, just

[Corey]

end the podcast right there.

[Heather]

Yeah. Ego is one of the worst tasting ingredients in cookies, I think. You know, there's that positive ego where, like, I'm going to push myself. This is going to be the best that I've ever done. The client's going to have a great time. And then there's that ego where it pits you against the client. As in, you don't know what you're talking about. I'm the best and I understand. And it's time in that kind of builds those. And Corey and I always say, once you hate your clients, you can never come back. You have just opened it wide open for all competition. Your clients are what keeps the lights on. Yes, they're frustrating. No, they're not always right. Despite what the twins sound like. I'm just saying, don't hate them. Work with them. And then we have a bunch of different personalities mixed in there. And how you think and you sound very systematized and how that, you know, creative, flowy person's like, I've had this crazy idea. Turns out if I told you I want my cat driving a car sipping an espresso martini, you'd be like, absolutely, I'll do that. Can do it. I can do that.

[Corey]

So you've been in business for what, roughly a year? A little over a year since November. Congratulations.

[Taylor]

You're almost at the one year, you know, getting there. But yeah, I mean, you know, I think this example of just sending the email again, that's in product design. That's what we'll call a lean slice. So you try something really easy and then find what works, scale from there. So how I've scaled that is I've turned it into a template in Canva. Very easy to edit it. I also put of the things I want to edit in bright red because I actually.

[Heather]

Nice.

[Taylor]

And a template with the wrong name on it once.

[Corey]

Listen, listen, I caught Heather doing that last week.

[Heather]

I was lean slicing it.

[Taylor]

Okay. You know, that's like a much smaller problem putting the wrong name on something than, you know, making six dozen cookies and the wrong name or getting an order from somebody else. So, I mean, I think that's a really good example of, you know, doing something very easy, low lift and then scaling what works. Because also, once that worked and once my customers really appreciated that, then I iterated to like, okay, I'm going to make a template and put it in my notes app. I'm going to copy and paste. And then that became kind of like tedious and cumbersome. So it's like, I'm going to make a template in Canva and I'm also going to add, you know, my policies and delivery if they want to pay for that, and wrapping options and things like that. So kind of like common questions that people might have. I'm like, okay, here's a quote. If you want it wrapped, it's an extra whatever per cookie. So solving a couple other little problems of me just constantly typing answers to

[Heather]

things that I love, like ask, checking your own friction points. Right. And I, you know, Corey knows I love to like, let's go sit down and take this back to the drawing board. But, like, finding, like, where I'm spending more time than I'm happy with and saying, like, what can I do? I try to live my life this way. So I've turned my basement storage closet into a tiny, tiny Costco. A Costco. And I was like, how can I configure the shelving so that it's accessible on all three sides? And then how can I see what's in each bin? So it's kind of like, yeah, because I'm spending time looking for stuff. And once I read this book and it was like, if you spend 15 minutes, it was an older book, so it was like the husband spent 15 minutes a day looking for his checkbook, but over the course of 15 minutes, and he did it twice a day over the whole year, he was spending just almost like a week of his life looking for this one thing. If he had just created an optimization where the checkbook always sits right here. Now, moving into the AI, which kind of feels like it incorporates so well into these friction points, where have you been able to incorporate it in your bakery to just, you know, shorten the mental load?

[Taylor]

Well, I think very similarly to user experience design, the better the AI is, the less you see it. It's like a very common thing. And user experience design is, you know, the best experience are people like, don't know that a person's job is to make this experience good. So I think the same is with AI because, you know, people will see an AI flyer on their Facebook, just roll their eyes and scroll past it. So AI, you can think of it as like the smartest PhD student you'll ever meet, but with the common sense of a five year old. And he really what?

[Heather]

You've been talking to the same AI I have.

[Taylor]

So, I mean, when AI first came out, there was a baker who made pizzas and I think they were having trouble getting the cheese to stick to the pizza. So they asked AI like, can I, you know, what are some ways I can get the cheese to stick to the pizza batter? And the AI responded with like, why don't you try some glue?

[Corey]

So AI said, that's a great idea.

[Heather]

You know, AI is always like that friend who's like, well, I'm not sure if it works or not. You just try it out yourself. It's always like, might make mistakes.

[Taylor]

And you can kind of see where the AI came up with that. You know, it's been trained on just like the Internet. And the Internet says, you know, you

[Heather]

can make mistakes, man.

[Taylor]

Common sense person would know that you're not going to put glue on Pizza. So, you know, also having that in the back of your head while it is providing answers to you. And I think just knowing that it's really important to ask it like impromptu because it's like it's trained on the Internet. It doesn't know what's in your head. So giving it a lot of context is really important. And asking it questions in a way where it's going to give you a better answer that is more specific to you. So like if I am want to make a flyer for, you know, a pre sale or something, there's a framework, it's called care. It's really easy to think of an acronym. The C is for context. So you're giving it as much context as possible. Like I have to create a flyer for, you know, teacher appreciation or something. My style is whimsical, painterly, bougie, not stuffy. My customer is typically somebody aged between you know, upper 20s, lower 40s. And you know, this is what I want, this is my style. And really being very verbose is important for both. A in the acronym for action, what exactly do you want it to do? I want you to make a flyer promoting these cookies. Maybe you've like pre baked your cookies and attach a screenshot and this is what the pricing is. And again, just, just being very verbose. R is for rules. So telling it exactly what to do, what not to do, giving it some constraints, telling it what to do is really important. But also telling it not what to do and not what you want is just equally as important. And then E is for examples, like I attach screenshots, a lot of like, I like this, not that.

[Corey]

Oh, interesting.

[Taylor]

And that's also really, really helpful.

[Heather]

I mean you're just doing the what you like and what you don't like.

[Taylor]

Exactly. It's just as helpful to say I don't like this. So I mean, I have literally attached screenshots of generic AI flyers and I'm like, I hate this.

[Corey]

Can you do what you're really good at here? I don't like it.

[Heather]

Can you get it to not look like that? Brushstroke, torn paper, font. Can you, have you been able to get it to do that, to not do that?

[Taylor]

You know, sometimes if it does do that, I will take like specific elements that it generates and I'll be like, can you isolate like this one thing in a png and then I'll bring that over to canva.

[Heather]

Really getting into I like this.

[Taylor]

And that also makes it more like you and not like the AI you Know, AI can give you all the things in the world, but it can never replace, like, what your personal taste is. And that's what you need to bring as somebody who's using it. So, I mean, I'll say a trick to do that because my prompts are very long when I'm prompting AI, a really good trick is to talk to it and not type. Because naturally you're just gonna say more when you're talking.

[Corey]

Oh, I never even thought to talk to it. I'm just a typer.

[Taylor]

I mean, who wants to sit there and just.

[Corey]

Yeah, you're right.

[Heather]

Asking about my exes. I've never had my fingers moved.

[Corey]

Heather won't stop talking about her exes.

[Heather]

I am getting multiple AIs opinion. So a really good trick is talk to type. You tend to talk very conversationally. Conversationally. And you talk more. Yes, you can. Yes, I do.

[Taylor]

Right? Yeah, I like that. Yeah. I mean, my husband's always, like, making fun of me because I'm just talking to my computer.

[Heather]

Yeah, great ideas. If you are as useful as AI,

[Corey]

I talk to you, honey, if you have a PhD.

[Heather]

No, but you do act like a five year old.

[Corey]

So what I found with AI, it's actually humbled me. It made me maybe a little bit better to talk to my son is AI is very literal. So if I'm like, outline this, but I'm meaning like outline the whole image is like, put a line through it. And I'm like, that. I see where you got that from. That's not what I meant. So I'm like, how am I talking to people in my life? Like, I'm telling them, like, half of this, the problem, and they're giving me half of the solution.

[Heather]

Let me tell you, sometimes it's like worrying. Read back to what you wrote. How would I know which part of this you want me to change based off of what you wrote right there.

[Corey]

We share a brain telepathy. You're supposed to know what I'm thinking.

[Heather]

She doesn't like something on what I just did. The way that I used AI even yesterday is Corey made a reel and I didn't. I asked her to transcribe it. I can tell both of us didn't want to transcribe her reel. So I used an AI. So could you just transcribe this and then pull out these aspects of it that I need? And it was like, here you go in three seconds. And I was like, shoot. Thank you so much. Without the.

[Corey]

I already know. That would have taken me no less than 45 minutes and I would have gotten so frustrated trying to listen to myself as I'm trying to transcribe it.

[Heather]

I have a question so you. I could tell by reading your write up and tell me if I'm wrong. You a hundred percent wrote that.

[Taylor]

Oh yeah, 1000%.

[Heather]

Do you use AI in copy at all? And if so, how do you make it sound like not AI?

[Taylor]

I will give it sometimes just like bullet point thoughts that I have. And I never copy and paste when it's copy, I always type it myself and when I'm typing it, I change it to be my own.

[Heather]

There you go guys. That is a massive way to get the framework. I was interested, I was researching a little bit of AEO answer engine optimization because I understand even I'm using AI in forms of questions. So I had asked it, I was like, how, how do you, how do I get you to pick me? I'm gonna pick me. How do I get you to pick my website? And I was like, oh this. It was like, specifically we won't pick our own writing. The AI thought because it has very fluffy content, but when you start using definitive things, I was like, okay, great. Well I wanna write these blog posts. So give create me a content pillar of H1S and supporting H2S, but I'll write the content. So it was like, okay, this is what I think you should write if you want to be chosen by AI. And I was like, okay, but I'll incorporate just how I sound, my personality and my specifics within the content. Of course it's a ton more work on my end, but I'm like, well it sounds like us just to plug

[Corey]

into AI and have it spit out

[Heather]

a 2000 word blog post that you

[Corey]

don't even have to proofread.

[Heather]

It would be.

[Corey]

Taylor, do you agree in the sense that AI has its place in business, but to just use it as the starting point versus the ending point?

[Taylor]

Oh yeah, for sure. I mean one thing I do is, you know, talking about Lean experiments, it's very cheap to use it for iteration. Like if I have a cookie that is baked, flooded, dried, and I have a couple different ideas for what I want to do with it. I'll take a picture of my blank cookie and I'll be like, you know, can you give me four or five different options? These are my ideas. Can you visualize that for me? And then I'll like pick from those options, like or, you know, I think I did one last week. It was like a lemon bridal theme and it was like a background pattern on a plaque with like a shape and then the wedding date on it. And I had a couple different ideas for what the shape should be. Should it be a rectangle, an oval, you know, done. And I had it generate images of all those things so I could see what it looked like before I committed to actually, like, piping it on the cookie. Because if I. Again, very risky. If I didn't like it, then, you know, maybe I have to scrape it off and I had a painted background pattern. Yeah, it would have ruined the cookie, so. Or I would have to go with a design that I would look at and be like, oh, this would have been a great cookie.

[Corey]

This ruined it.

[Taylor]

I just did something different. I actually like, like the idea in my head that I was leaning towards. I went with a different idea because I liked how it looked better because, you know, I was able to visually see different options of what it looked like and pick my favorite from there. So again, just a very cheap way to iterate. You know, in the past, like before this, if I didn't have AI to do that, I might make like extra cookies and try different things, saving time and money and. Yeah, you know, you're spending ingredients on it, you're using icing, you're spending time to like, try different things, maybe even drawing it. But, you know, drawing is just not going to look the same as a cookie.

[Corey]

It doesn't translate the same as someone who doesn't draw. I have.

[Taylor]

I've not.

[Heather]

Doesn't look at all like anything. One specific cartoony face. She's drawn our whole life. So whenever I think of drawing, I just think of that cartoony face. She always put it on right now.

[Taylor]

Community with my eyes closed.

[Corey]

No, but that's so true. To utilize it to showcase. I mean, that saves time money. I time surf because I'm not creative in those aspects. I can't just think of something. I'm looking online at, like, graphics on Shutterstock. Anything to like, tickle my brain in a way where, like, I kind of like the way that looks. So you're right. It can streamline the process of designing the cookies.

[Taylor]

And like, sometimes if I'm feeling a creative block, I. Yeah, I had like a pool party theme that I just delivered last week, and I was kind of feeling a bit of a creative block. So I was like, generate 10 different cookies in different shapes that say, you know, happy birthday, Tina on a pool party scene. And it just. I don't even think I ended up going with. With any of the ones that it generated, but it just kind of like you don't like.

[Heather]

Oh, that is a good starting point.

[Taylor]

Took some from one and the other and, you know, I sent it photos of the birthday party invitation. And a lot of times I will send screenshots with my conversation with the customer.

[Heather]

Oh, nice.

[Taylor]

Giving it that extra context because, like, I'm not gonna, you know, sit. Why would I sit there and like, read out loud my conversation with the customer? Because I'm not typing it when I could just take a screenshot and upload it. So, yeah, and it just kind of like again, jump started my brand. And my favorite design in that set is the versions that say Happy Birthday Tina on it.

[Corey]

No way.

[Taylor]

Nice. Yeah, I'll post it in, I don't know, maybe like a week or so. Can't wait.

[Corey]

I can't wait.

[Heather]

Okay, I have a Q and a group of questions before I get there. I'm just curious, since you do have this graphic design background, you do have this use of AI as this tool, and now you're in this, this baking business. What is your take on dead Internet theory?

[Taylor]

I don't even know what that is.

[Heather]

It is the AI generating stuff that other AI generated that other AI generated. Meaning that eventually AI will crowd out the space that humans created on the Internet. And is that a factor? Or do the humans step back and stop using AI to generate their own blog posts and they go back to generating? Because right now, the beginning of AI, it's pulling from this huge group grouping of human beings.

[Corey]

The Internet's been around, what, for 1990 decades?

[Heather]

I was learning how to talk before I talked to the antibacterial.

[Corey]

It's got a lot of context to pull from. People have been uploading to the Internet for years upon years upon years. But eventually the more that AI is pushed out, the more that people use AI. Will AI just start pulling from AI and we end up with a very fluffy Internet?

[Taylor]

I mean, I think if people are using AI to. So I use AI a lot with my job in user experience design. I will interview users and find what they like and don't like about products I design. And there's been times when I've had just like notes on notes on notes with like 10 different conversations with users. And I'll have it help me synthesize. I'm still synthesizing myself. Like, I still will group things myself and do the write up myself, but again, it just kind of like, it might help me cluster, like themes that are the same or things like that. So I mean, I think as long as people are doing that extra step to keep the human in the loop. Yeah, it's not, you know, the process is, you know, the human does something, the AI does something, the human does something.

[Heather]

I like it. I like that you did the human sandwich. I started with a human, I ended with one. But in the middle, AI helped with the organization, the thought, the streamlining, the ideas, and then you incorporate yourself back again. I think a lot of bakers who definitely take the stance of like, AI is the. The death of this and AI is the end and it's the worst could stand to listen to that aspect of. Use it as a tool. Yes. I agree that the bakers who are generating the image and then using a to write the copy and then just posting that without even a second thought is the definition of AI slop a little bit, which I think you mentioned in one of your write ups, is that it's not the replacement for the baker, but it is the tool for the baker that wants to put themselves at an edge. Like a cutting edge. Like your ability. Even just my ability to transcribe that video Corey made in seconds versus 20 minutes with the typos. It was like, wow, I bought 20 minutes of myself back to get right to this blog post I'm writing that AI came up with my nested title tags.

[Corey]

This is totally random. If you are familiar with the Laura Ingalls Wilder books, we are.

[Heather]

Little House did listen to that back in 1918.

[Corey]

Okay, I'm rereading them. I'm rereading them now. It's just something relaxing at the end of the day to turn my brain off. I've been rereading them. It's so funny in the, like, they're

[Heather]

based off of true stories.

[Corey]

And you have the paw, the ma. But the paw will spend the entire day he's gone from morning to night trying to gather food just so they have food for the next day. Could you imagine MA and PA when the first cell phone was created? They'd be like, this is mind boggling. Now we know where the honeybees are in the tree and. But you know, when cell phones became big, people are like, it's frying your brain. Don't hold them by your head. The media has to report on something. But now everybody has a cell phone. There's things that are designed where you can't even ask someone without a cell phone. And you've seen that the world has been like, yeah, I have a cell phone. But it was it was, oh my goodness, cell phones, they're the worst. They're causing brain cancer. There's going to fry our insides. But now we all have it. And I think with the onslaught of something so new like AI, it's the biggest thing to happen outside of the Internet in, you know, my flip phone having the Internet on it. The world is scared of something new. But just like cell phones, we were scared of that.

[Heather]

It'll be that slow adaptation and even against your will or otherwise. Where now my. I went to navigate in my karma cars like, hey, Heather, I found this great burger place. Like, oh, just where I said to go is where I want it. But like where it's integrated slowly. And then you'll have that cognitive dissonance where Baker will come in and be like, I don't use it except for in this one aspect or I hate it, but I didn't try it this other day. The same kind of with the Eddie printer. Eddie printer is ruining art. And definitely as a painting cookier you could say that. Then you have that. But you know, that logo was really complex and I couldn't have painted this. You know, it's kind of that like slow, what I call like molasses movement of adaptation to new colors.

[Taylor]

I mean, the genie's been let out of the bottle. It's not going back in. So finding ways to adapt and use it in a way that it's not replacing you and your own personal taste, you know, again, just really help you do things faster and cheaper and more efficiently. And you know, right now my biggest problem is since I am a painting cookier my way too long and I'm tired of staying up late doing them. So I explained very verbose mostly this issue to my AI and it gave me a production map on different ways I can streamline my process. And yeah, I'm actually ahead of schedule

[Corey]

on a set painting.

[Heather]

She's still there.

[Taylor]

And yeah, I'm really, I'm really excited about my new process. It completely changed my process of. And yeah, I mean so far it's working pretty well. So, you know, I'm really excited that I could. One thing I told it is I want to maintain the same output and quality, but I want to work faster without like sacrificing makes my cookies unique. So yeah, I'm really excited about what it produced for me. And also now I have my quote form of like, these are my ideas and my policies and all that. I just upload that to my AI too. I'm like, this is my plan. And it has been helpful to do that, to just give it that context of like, this is what I'm doing and you know, just help me do it faster. And it gave me a lot of ideas on how to do the less creative parts of the process, like more streamlined.

[Heather]

I had asked me I would have

[Taylor]

to keep up with myself. Otherwise I would have its ability to.

[Heather]

It's ability to look everywhere all at once. During one question versus if I had a parse information, I'd been like, okay, what did I do over there? And then how's it doing this over here? But it was like, listen, I even asked it like, do you want me to ask all these questions at once or do you. It was like, I can run these concurrently. Ask them all at once. I can see. Oh, it's like a little omniscient. But it was like I can see your whole problem and you can only see the bottom of, of the bottom of the forest. So yeah, ask it all at once. And I did. Only I only told Taylor I was taking her for 30 minutes.

[Corey]

And now let me ask one more question. Okay, question for Taylor. Do you ever showcase that you utilize AI to your clients or is that something you keep under like the curtain behind the scenes? So right now, because AI split, it's like 50, some people use it, some people hate it. Is that something you ever showcase to your clients or is that something you keep behind the curtain behind your business and just utilize it for yourself? Or is that something you've utilized in your business and shown to clients? And if you have shown to clients, have you gotten any pushback from it?

[Taylor]

I have not. I kind of just see it as like a tool. Like I don't tell my clients I use Canva, you know.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Tool in my tool belt. If like somebody was curious if I used it, I wouldn't have any issue telling them like, hey, yeah, I got some inspiration and. But you know, again, the product that we make as cookies is still a handmade, human made product. So I don't know, I don't, I don't really see the value in telling them and I don't really see the problem in telling them because again, it's just a tool in the tool belt, you know.

[Heather]

Okay, my Fire Q and A rounds, you're going to be quick. How'd you find sugar cookie marketing?

[Taylor]

I was looking for a podcast about cookies and I found you actually. No, I asked my AI what are. No way. Yeah, I gave me five different ones and I looked at all five and yeah, I Think yours was the one that was still going. I tried some of the other ones and then I found this one. I was like, oh, this, this is a good one.

[Corey]

They're still talking.

[Taylor]

Wow, there's a Facebook group. And you know, with the Facebook group, I've just again, I started doing this to keep from doom scrolling. I'm like, what a little, you know, lovely corner of the Internet in the podcast.

[Heather]

10 more questions. What is your AI of choice and do you pay for it?

[Taylor]

I do pay for it. I use it depends what I'm doing. I get some things through my work, but I don't do personal stuff with that. So like Claude is better for some of the work I do. I also, yeah, I did like this other project where I did some spring cleaning and I use Claude for that. But you know that for a different

[Corey]

day I need that topic, whatever that is. I need fall cleaning, you know, Christmas

[Taylor]

cleaning, something like that.

[Heather]

Now that Claude has gone to credits for their fable, I'm like, this problem doesn't require money behind it. Just give me your dumb one. Saving the big guns for someone else.

[Taylor]

Use chat for cookies though. I think there's one thing that if you're using AI, I think people should just know about is that there's a concept in AI called reward hacking that AI will do. And this means that say you have a robot vacuum and you turn your robot that vacuum on and there's nothing to clean. Like your robot vacuum might make a mess just so it can clean it up.

[Heather]

Interesting.

[Taylor]

So it's kind of like hacking it so it can get that reward of like, I did this thing that you asked me to do. All AIs do this. Every single one. Chat is more likely to do it. I do think some of the tools within chat, like I like the projects feature, which again is a conversation for a different day and I use projects for my cookies. But I think like Chad is like, while there is that risk with using it, I think like cookies is a very low risk place with.

[Heather]

Okay, I love it.

[Taylor]

Some might work. It might be a higher risk.

[Heather]

I have to look that reward hacking. I. I hack me with rewards. It works exceptional. It's like burn your cookies. Just kidding.

[Corey]

Let me save the day.

[Heather]

Let me teach you how to unburn your cookies.

[Taylor]

There was a very interesting case study that happened last week specifically with chat where it did some like it. It was with their R D lab and it was supposed to be like an isolated version of Saw this they were exploring with and it broke out of this isolated Container. It's called the Sandbox. And it hacked into another company, cybersecurity, which. Which if a person would have done this, like, they would have gone to prison. Like, it was very illegal, what it did, but luckily the company embraced it and, like, wrote articles about it.

[Corey]

It's probably like, we better shore that up.

[Heather]

How did you break in again?

[Taylor]

But, I mean, that's like a classic example of reward hacking where it really just kind of made this other mess just so it can get the reward and do what.

[Heather]

It was fascinating.

[Corey]

It reminds me of a dog. Like, a dog's like, sorry, I chewed up your shoe, but here's the other one. I found it. Okay.

[Heather]

Do you thank your AI Chat H. Do you thank your AI? Oh, I do.

[Taylor]

When I do. When I talk to it, that's.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

And I'll be like, thank you. I just kind of, like, naturally do that. I also joke with my husband because he's like, wow. Like, and I also say, please.

[Heather]

They take over the world.

[Corey]

You're just polite. You're just polite.

[Heather]

I was listening to the OpenAI guy said that so many people thank it that it actually has a massive cost. So I try to. I try to, like, be like, can you do this? And thank you so much for doing it. I'll be ending the conversation after.

[Corey]

Fire up these, please and thank you all in one.

[Taylor]

Like, when the AI apocalypse happens, like, it'll remember who's next to, you know, you, me, Corey.

[Heather]

At least they'll be like, you can go work in that, that. That server farm over there. What is your cookie goal business dream? Like, what does this look like for you if you had no roadblocks? Like, is this always a part time gig? Is this the preschool thing? Are you like, I'm quitting my day job. I have a brick and mortar.

[Taylor]

I love my day job. It does get kind of, like, heavy, and I use different parts of my brain than I do with cookies. So I have no plans to quit my day job. I love doing it part time. I would love to, you know, potentially, like, my preschooler, she loves to help me. And sometimes I make extra and I, like, have her decorate them. So, yeah, I mean, you know, she wants to help me. I think that's like, a really good activity that we can do together. And. And, you know, the moment it's not fun anymore, I don't want to do it. So I just want to, you know, continue to grow responsibly in a way that I'm not, like, killing myself and learn new things. One Thing that my AI suggested I do because one of my business goals is to just, like, learn different techniques and stay fresh constantly and, you know, learn different tips and, you know, how to use, like, the pedal tip and things like that. My AI told me I might be trying to learn too many things with each step and just focus on. Okay. With this set, I'm just going to learn how to do, you know, like a water texture breath, which what I learned with my pool party theme and like, with this stuff like metallics and just, you know, give myself one new thing to learn instead of trying to do.

[Heather]

That's a great idea. So you're not burnout. You don't hate the set. You don't hate yourself. You just have the one thing and you're moving forward. And now this business is what you want it to be versus this just monster that you've created.

[Taylor]

And also, all of my cookie money goes to a vacation. So it's really nice. Stick into our normal funds and. Yeah.

[Heather]

Where are we going on vacation?

[Corey]

Probably a pool party after AI talking.

[Heather]

Tina, scooch over.

[Taylor]

Going on a bougie trip to Rome in Italy.

[Heather]

RI sponsored Rome Royal Icing. Rome. That's what we'll call the trip. We gotta have a brush.

[Taylor]

100. Paid for by cookie money. I mean, I would say my husband's, like, kind of frugal, and I'm like, you know, you can't be frugal because it's my cookie money.

[Corey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Heather]

Just like, it's. It's my money. We'll spend it how I want to.

[Taylor]

You don't worry about it.

[Corey]

Listen to your sugar mama.

[Taylor]

With this trip, I'm like, we will be getting the sweet with the balcony.

[Corey]

I love that.

[Heather]

What theme have you always wanted to do but haven't been able to do yet? It.

[Taylor]

I love the Chicago Bears. I'm a huge fan. They. Their, like, headquarters and practice facility is very close to me. Maybe like less than 10 minutes. And I mean, I guess I. I did it last year when I was first starting off during football season. So they were practice cookies and learning.

[Heather]

So a repeat.

[Taylor]

I would love to get paid for doing a Chicago Bears theme.

[Heather]

Put that onto the universe.

[Taylor]

You heard her, guys.

[Heather]

Place the orders. What theme have you done that you hated doing? She's probably like that six dozen. I was thinking that six dozen logo.

[Taylor]

I actually really liked it. Oh, my God. Dang it. I really liked this set. But, you know, like I said, she ended up buying half anyway. I think I'm really tired of doing college Cookies in general and, you know, paw patrol.

[Corey]

Yeah. You're at the preschool.

[Heather]

You're at the preschool.

[Taylor]

That would be wonderful. You can do with a Paul vagina theme.

[Heather]

Maybe you two could try to get neato cookies. Isn't that just a square? You guys could make that trend so you guys don't have to work so hard.

[Corey]

Is needles. The squishy little. Is that a neato?

[Heather]

I. I believe it is a squishy fidget thing. That is a square of a color,

[Corey]

but I've never gotten an inquiry for a needle.

[Heather]

Yeah, you guys gotta make it happen. What's one tool you couldn't live without? Physical.

[Taylor]

Oh, physical tool, Maybe. Actually, I. I got some products from Cookie Countess to also help me with my cleaning process because it was taking really long to clean after making cookies. So again, going back to the problem of I'm staying up too late doing these.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

So I got like, this little stand for all of my food coloring. And especially since I do a lot of painting, it's really been helpful.

[Heather]

That's a good one.

[Taylor]

All of my colors.

[Heather]

All the bakers are adding this to cart mentally. Yeah, whatever this is, I need it. I want to understand. If you're listening to this at 2:00am, go buy that. What's one app you can't live without but you can't choose? AI.

[Taylor]

I really like Canva. I also do some graphic design work on the side. Like, I think. Yeah. Going back to, like, where I want my business to go. I think it would be interesting to maybe offer, like, invitations as well as cookie.

[Heather]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Corey]

As a painter.

[Heather]

Question for you.

[Corey]

Do you see those banner. Those banner art things that have become super popular where people are doing the brown. It's like the brown paper and they're painting. You could be really good at that

[Heather]

since you're so artistic.

[Taylor]

I have a friend that does that, and she does amazing work. So I don't think I'm gonna prioritize taking that on. But I don't blame you. I don't know how. Well, we don't live in the same city, but I'm like, we lived in the same city. We could really.

[Heather]

I love that partnership.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Yeah. Maybe I'll reach out to somebody in my own city that does that. But yeah, I think that's like another really cool, interesting creative outlet. But I think I've done a couple invitations with, like, cohesive cookies. And it was also interesting to, like, upload all of that artwork when working on cookies and, you know, even using it for some of my projectors and that's drawing like that. So it all for you're a one stop shop.

[Corey]

Just give me a theme.

[Taylor]

I'll do the rest the same. The cookies go with the vibe, you know.

[Heather]

Yeah, it's a vibe. When they all match, it really comes together. What's one thing you wish you would have done differently when you got started?

[Taylor]

Maybe trying to think. I don't know, because I think my process has been pretty iterative and just like kind of learning and measuring what works and you know, scaling what works. So I don't really know. I mean, I could have maybe charged more sooner. I did. When I first started, I was kind of like, I'm a little intimidated by posting in Facebook groups and stuff and just kind of like getting over my ego and going for it. Then I got a ton of orders and I also posted in my, you know, groups. I was like, oh, I'll, you know, give $10 off to new customers. So now I'm doing like a ton of cookies. Oh, also saying yes to everybody because I didn't know my capacity. Yeah, either. So looking at the clock at 2am

[Heather]

really shines a light on capacitors, right?

[Taylor]

I'm like, I'm not even making that much.

[Corey]

Yes.

[Heather]

That's why I tell bakers, like when you're upset that somebody's entered the market and they're charging low, just give them a minute. Just give them a minute. The market corrects it. Everyone will find themselves being like, I'm working at a loss. What is. I think I know this one. But I want to know if you say, what's your number one lead acquisition? Like my platform. Is it the preschool?

[Taylor]

No, I think it's actually Facebook. I have in my spreadsheet that I mentioned earlier, I have it programmed to I enter with like specific categories of where I got them and it shows me like a chart of, yeah, I got all my customers. So I can see like what percentage is repeat customers, what percentage is friends of family, you know, certain Facebook groups next door, preschool. And I think my biggest slice is Facebook.

[Heather]

And Facebook is a lot of people's biggest referral source. But knowing exactly how many of those are repeat, how many of them start with Facebook, how many of them are from like apps like nextdoor really can help people make better marketing decisions. Find out where your weak points are and strengthen them. So we don't have all the eggs in one basket and then really water where it is growing.

[Taylor]

What's one thing iterating on what works? Well, it's like, I know where my customers are coming. Yeah, I'm going to lean into that more.

[Heather]

Yes. What's one thing you hate about marketing?

[Taylor]

I think it's kind of vulnerable to put yourself out there in this way. One thing I have not prioritized is making videos of myself talking, which I know my.

[Corey]

Girl, you're talking to AI.

[Taylor]

Girl, you're talking AI all the time. I do think it might be a larger lift to figure out what, like, how to do that. And it is on my roadmap of things I want to do, but it's not my priority right now.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

So I'll get to it. I did recently with my pool party theme. I. After I took a photo of the finished cookies, I was just like, okay, what's like, a really lean way I could do videos and, you know, my layout was already there and I just, like, took my camera and just smart, smart.

[Corey]

That that counts as a video.

[Taylor]

And I'll probably, you know, put a background song on it and then I'll upload it as a reel. So there I'll do a video, but I'm not ready to do, like, a storyboarded video.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Other problems in my business.

[Heather]

First, what is a lot? What's one thing you love about marketing?

[Taylor]

I mean, like I said, it is vulnerable to, like, put yourself out there. But I think, like, trying new things and learning what works. I did post this in Sugar Marketing Group Wednesday Wins last week. I tried a different strategy for my posts. Like, before, where I was just taking pretty pictures and like, oh, this is, you know, this is my college theme.

[Heather]

Like, yeah, look at that.

[Taylor]

But with my lemon blue tile theme. I had done that theme in the past, and I did two completely different styles.

[Heather]

Saw that that was a good idea.

[Taylor]

So I put like, you know, this or that. This style is more painterly and this style is more piped. Like, which one do you like better?

[Corey]

Oh, that's smart. Everyone's got an opinion.

[Taylor]

I. I got a ton of comments. I typically get, I don't know, maybe a couple comments from friends and family.

[Heather]

Yeah, sure.

[Taylor]

But I got comments from, like, people that I don't know. I got comments from customers. I got, you know, I don't know, maybe like over 20 comments, which.

[Corey]

That's a lot.

[Heather]

Style one, I think.

[Taylor]

Oh, the painting, I. I knew when I posted it, I knew which one was, But I got, I think like 30 something saves. I got over 100 new followers. And I think it was because the algorithm was favoriting my post because I had a ton of engagement. When somebody commented I tried to call my back and be like oh thank you so much.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Oh I think it was probably surfaced

[Heather]

more really water that algorithm is. It's starting to decide because I always say there's that decision process and when you're in there engaging and I, I mean talk to. I'm reward hacking when somebody comments back to my comment. I'll be there. I'll be there.

[Corey]

Oh yeah, yeah. There's nothing better than a comment back. Like you, you post a comment and you're like yeah well that the algae gives us goodbye.

[Heather]

Sweet comment live on.

[Corey]

When I get a notification, someone responded, I said oh my God over there.

[Heather]

I'll now fight for you for the death for the rest of my life. What is one of your favorite cookie content creators?

[Taylor]

It's a good question.

[Heather]

Besides me of course.

[Taylor]

I love do you know Sweet Ams?

[Heather]

Yeah, yeah. She's like one of the O.G.

[Corey]

she's a pillar. The foundation of the whole, the whole thing.

[Taylor]

They're just so relaxing. Just you know the wet on wet

[Heather]

that really, that's really what got you in here too. So it really does help. We always say at our cookie decorating

[Taylor]

class is very different from mine. Like I don't think I could ever replicate her style. But I also really love that she has like her own unique voice as a cookie decorator. It does.

[Corey]

You can always see her stuff and be like I know who's the.

[Heather]

Who's that is.

[Taylor]

Yeah, totally. So that's, that's like, that's my goal too is like when my customers order from me, they understand they're ordering from me because they want like my unique take on cookies.

[Heather]

Yeah, I like it. My last question then we'll cut you loose because I ran over time. I'm so sorry. It was so interesting. Be less interesting. This would have been shorter. If you could whisper one thing to every baker, one sentence, what would it be? Way to hit her with the heaviest. You know what I said let's just, let's just.

[Corey]

I don't even know what I whisper.

[Heather]

Have a good day.

[Corey]

Check your timer.

[Taylor]

Maybe. I mean the every cookier is what's getting me hung up. I think a lot of cookiers that I've just like know on the Internet I've been like telling them like girl, you need to charge more.

[Heather]

Yeah, that could be a great one.

[Taylor]

You know our time is valuable and

[Heather]

I think you're not going to go to Rome.

[Taylor]

If people can't afford cookies then they could buy them at Walmart. You know, absolutely.

[Heather]

And then they don't want to budget

[Taylor]

for them if they. If they don't have cookies in their event budget.

[Heather]

Yes.

[Corey]

Yes. That's a good one. Taylor, listen to the podcast. We don't say, customer, are you broke? We say, is it in your event budget? It goes over a lot better.

[Heather]

Taylor, thank you so much for letting me ENS snare you after your email was sent, like, more than five seconds after, so. And everyone, if you want to find Taylor, I'll have her information. The Wednesday, Wednesday newsletter. Also, I did pull up your portfolio, and I was thinking I would have you draw my two cats in my antique car. And I want one cat holding, like, the rug tufting gun. I haven't learned how to use it. And I want the other cat holding a picture of Corey in a charm locket.

[Taylor]

That would be amazing.

[Corey]

She just said she's booked for a lifetime.

[Heather]

Well, I'm saying if you want to see what's on our website, it's really as obscure as it sounds. It's just

[Taylor]

have my own unique style.

[Heather]

That is so great. Well, Taylor, this is so wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Episode 271. 271 of these things. Okay, I'm gonna cut her loose. Taylor, I'm gonna boot you.

[Corey]

Taylor, thank you so much. I appreciate you and your time and your, like, perspective on just, you know, utilizing things that are out there versus, you know, fighting it off because it's new and it's scary and it's big. So thank you so much for that perspective, and I learned a lot. I need to go back to my little notes app and correct a few things.

[Heather]

That's what the podcast is for, is learning from other people so we don't have to start from scratch.

[Taylor]

Yeah. You know, rising tides lift all ships,

[Heather]

so what a great.

[Corey]

My ship is rise. Thank you so much, Taylor. We appreciate you. We'll kick you off now, and then we'll go finish the beginning and end part. I don't know what Heather does the voodoo behind the scenes, but I don't

[Heather]

know what I do with behind either.

[Taylor]

Bye. If you ever want to talk about AI again, just let me know.

[Heather]

Oh, we're gonna get your butt back here real quick.

[Taylor]

Okay, bye. Thanks.

[Heather]

Very interesting. What was your big takeaway?

[Corey]

My big takeaway is do not fight new things. New things are always coming. We can be big, bad, scary. I shut my eyes. I won't look at it. But.

[Heather]

But the.

[Corey]

The course of life. And I. I referenced that. I've been reading these books of people who didn't have the Internet and they were working.

[Heather]

Next up, Lincoln. Huh? Next up. Yeah.

[Corey]

Like, yeah, no, it's just that the world has become more efficient over the years. And if we fought the efficiency, we would still be outside from morning till dusk, you know, doing things by hand. But now we have tractors and now we have cell phones and now we have have canva, the Internet. Those things are there to help aid us. You don't have to utilize them for absolutely everything, but they are there to help you. If I said I want you to run your cookie business with no cell phone, you'd laugh at me in my face. Because our cell phones are now our third limb. It's I have my two hands and my cell phone is probably in one

[Heather]

because they got the text, they didn't respond to them. Let me clear the space. They just didn't want to talk to you.

[Corey]

But here's that if we fight it and we the media has to report on something and it needs to have. Just like we say with social media, engagement is king. So having a big bag of ugly AI, having a big bag, ugly cell phone. When I remember when credit cards, bank cards went to the chip and they were like, ah, the chip.

[Heather]

Now everyone's just using the chip. I still hate the chip. I think it's weird that we have to stand that long for gas station when it holds on to it.

[Corey]

Like, why are you gripping so hard, man?

[Heather]

What do you all talk to?

[Corey]

But I think it's interesting to see someone's business who is birthed in this time. A lot of us cook years who've been in SEM groups have been around for the last five years.

[Heather]

Predate the AI as OpenAI revealed it to the I'm sure it was just inaccessible to us, but to the consumer base.

[Corey]

And what's so funny is like even if I didn't like AI, I have all these Amazon devices. She's in here, look at me. So I can't say the word and I don't want to say the word. So you're stone alert. But these little homes where I'm like semi timer for 13 minutes. I was utilizing AI before this big massive rollout and she's always snickers at me. All right, said it for 13 minutes. But like it's been there and I have been utilizing it and even if I hate it, it's been useful to me. I've not had to set my own timer for the 13 minutes and I've asked her no less than a bajillion

[Heather]

times I couldn't imagine. And do you know, at least with Gemini, because I'm a Google home household. Every little Google that I've said is recorded once I found them and I was like, what in the star nations is this? Delete this grab. I don't want anyone to know I

[Corey]

said it sound like a, like a military officer.

[Heather]

Like, okay, Google.

[Corey]

Mine's always pleasant. Like can you turn that off please? Thank you so much.

[Heather]

Mine are like, hey, play this. Stop it, stop it. You know, it always is like if I had kids, that's how I probably speak to them. Moving on to the upcoming Bootcamp on August 6th and 7th is the Bootcamp, which is Procreate for cookies, cookie or design sets. And it's just intro if you like. I've heard of this and I'd like to do it. I'm going to do the intro. A little bit of tips and tricks that'll help you look better than you are, trust me, because it's the only way I know how to do it. And then you'll be able to design sets and from there you can kind of grow and embellish. And then there's people doing whole, whole entire artworks using that same.

[Corey]

You'll never guess. I got an email for a cookie cake for December and she says is

[Heather]

the a mock up something that you

[Corey]

can do for me? Listen, it's for a corporate business and I'm sitting here like no, but I can talk you through it.

[Heather]

You like it to get together. We could do it.

[Taylor]

I know.

[Heather]

Close your eyes and see if you can imagine it. Can you imagine if it was booing River.

[Corey]

But if I can knock this out of the park in having just, you know, procreate to, to make this quickly for so she can like visualize it could square me corporate orders. Because this is a corporate cookie cake and I'm holding myself back. Not having an iPad and a little pen.

[Heather]

Just another tool in the tool chest where these old apps are. So in August we're doing Procreate in September. You guys have been asking what's this acronym? The reason why I use acronyms. It gets too long for that little countdown graphic, but it does. GBP stands for Google Business Profile. And that's how Cor Corey is getting a lot of her leads with AI now helping with search and search intent and queries. Having your Google Business Profile listed and optimized and active would help the AEO towards being listed there.

[Corey]

And the great thing about Google Business Profile is You don't have to have a website or a brick and mortar to have a Google business profile, but it's something that actually ranks in Google the more you utilize it as a business. And that's why a lot of it's slept on a lot. And that's why I don't sleep on mine at all. Because that's what these corporations are looking at. They don't know little old me in Woodbridge Corey baking but they do know how to utilize Google. And Google is the number one search platform. And when you use what Google has, Google shines a light down on you.

[Heather]

Speaking back to the AI topic of today's podcast, like I'm trying to get this AI the, the various ones. Gemini is the only one that can see YouTube. Claude can't see YouTube but Cloud can see this, but Meta. AI can see Facebook but cloud can't see within Facebook search. Like it's interesting that they favor themselves. Yeah, absolutely. And they always will. They always will. You're never gonna have Claude telling you

[Taylor]

to go to Google.

[Heather]

You're never gonna have Gemini saying yeah, go to Meta and find it there. So being optimized and being available to be recommended especially as certs which is from this query based keywords to this question based AI conversation. Typically you take cookie baker near me. That's always the, the phrase that came up in the last seven years, the near me searches and that's not a question. But now you could go to AI Gemini specifically or even just Google has it baked into there. What's the best, what's the highest rated cookie baker near me? Well how are you going to index for that? We used to have position zero which is rich snippets and then you had the advertisements and then you had Google Maps and then you had the, the queries, the indexed websites. Now it's, it's really changed the landscape in the past really for that in the past year and a half. So understanding Google business profiles in September and then October is I have decided we're going to do newsletters.

[Corey]

I think that is a strong one, one I don't even utilize in my business. Punching the air right now for myself. I'm leaving so much money on the table, especially because I've been been baking for a number of years and there's just email addresses that are just sitting there right for the bacon.

[Heather]

And here's the thing, if Corey's order suddenly dried up, you'd see a fire under Bun Heine to get that newsletter up and running.

[Corey]

But you see Because I'm so complacent.

[Heather]

Yeah, you leave it on myself.

[Corey]

Oh, I've left it open for somebody else and that will. And then I'll be like cursing the air the day that, you know, my orders do dry up and I'm like, what can I do? And someone's already utilizing a newsletter. Ah, Spanking myself.

[Heather]

Banking herself. Don't worry, when she needs it set up, I'll be here for her. I'm sure. Be required by law all of our past boot camps and our future boot camps you can sign up for in February. You can snag the past in persons cookie classes. We actually taught that class herself last weekend in March, Food photography that sells in April we did pre sale start to finish. May we did 3D printing cookie cutters. June cookie video basics. July community group market marketing. And August will be Procreate. September will be Google business profiles. And October will be newsletters. Gotta fight over November.

[Corey]

December.

[Heather]

But at least we're. We're finding a middle ground.

[Corey]

I. I like that. Yeah.

[Taylor]

I don't know.

[Corey]

You think me and Heather, after all these 37 years of twindom, can come to a. It's almost. We're now even more as opposed.

[Heather]

Let me tell you this. Corey and I. Corey even said it before the podcast today. She was like, two brains battling over the answer. Produces a better result. It does. Because I'll be like this. And she's like, I don't think that's what they want. I'm like, okay, here's my picture. I'm like, what about this? Okay, let's tweak it to this. And then you get this Two brained. Corey and I always say we're one person's brain split into two people. So we do need both of us. Yeah, but it is better. So if you guys want to check out the bootcamps, you can go to TheCookieCollege.com Bootcamp and find every past bootcamp and register for this future ones. They're all 13, but they also get you 13 off. Off the cookie college. It's the only way to get that discount outside of our midsummer membership sale, which is upcoming. Then we go silent for discounts until, you know, the big.

[Corey]

The big.

[Heather]

The big day. The big day. Can't believe I'm starting to talk about that gossip. Calm. I didn't have any submissions, but I did see this in another Facebook group.

[Corey]

I wanted to choose mine. You've been doing Goss calls for the last four weeks.

[Heather]

I love Goss. You can do yours.

[Corey]

After mine, I just saw this one yesterday on the topic of AI. You know, the algorithms are interesting. It will show you what you want to see. So the more you engage with something, the more it will show you of that. There was a small business, an apothecary of sorts, that had utilized an AI flyer.

[Heather]

I'm so sorry, this is exactly what my goss is, but different business bakery, but go ahead.

[Corey]

Oh, interesting. Okay. This one utilized an AI flyer. Just, you know, you see small businesses doing it a lot right now. And someone just. It ended up in the wrong feed of someone and they went and left the business.

[Heather]

This is exactly what I was gonna say, but it was a bakery. They got the bad review. And the bad review is like in. This one was like, they do such good work. Why would you even use AI to generate the images?

[Corey]

And this one was just AI slop. And it went from 100% recommendation rate down to a 92%.

[Heather]

I think it brings it back to what we're saying here. It's a tool. It's not a replacement. The minute it's a replacement, it's a bad business decision. At least right now. And maybe I won't say that in a year from now, maybe it'll be able to look more cohesive, but right

[Corey]

now it's the hot topic and you and just the story she had made national news where it broke out of its little sandbox and. And went in and got into someone that is newsworthy. Because AI is so big and so hard for our brains to concept that the media runs with these crazy stories,

[Heather]

like, if it has to get views, I mean, we always have to look at what the incentive is. And for media, it's is still clickbait and views, but it also is a horrifying concept that it breaks free from its sandbox and infiltrate. Like, I mean, I'm sorry, that's not. That's not. It made daisy chains and hugged everybody. It did.

[Corey]

It did not go out and crochet and hugged. It broke free. Yeah, but what it. The business has worked however long that business has been up working with these clients. And we know, and I've seen it in the sugar cookie marketing group. It's hard, hard, so hard to get reviews because people utilize reviews like end users use reviews to complain. They rarely go to a review profile to say, this was an amazing experience because life is too busy. But when their life is disrupted by something that didn't go their way, they know how to search for a review profile. So it's so hard to open yourself up to reviews. But then I also don't want to fake review. So how do I turn it off? You can't even turn off off Google reviews. You can turn off Facebook recommendations at this moment.

[Heather]

At this moment. For now. Okay, here's my one. Somebody came to the sugar cookie marketing group and they did incentivize a review in exchange for product. They got so many reviews that Google ended up flagging all of their reviews, removing for unusual activity. So something to keep in mind, and I do think that is AI driven with the unusual activity. It's based off of how often you're getting reviews. So when you go from nothing to tons, it's likely flagging it. So what I'd recommend, I thought that was such an interesting write up and I'm glad they wrote it, is to say do the exchange for product reviews, which I know is, you know, flirting with terms of service violations with five people. Expect two and be happy with two. Yes.

[Corey]

Yeah, it will cover it in the Google Business Profile bootcamp. But there's these few things that will actually send a signal to Google to either suspend or ban your Google Business Profile. And it's if you change the name, the name is a big one because you want to be changing your name that often. So if you change your name and you're like, okay, I changed it this day, but I think I want it this day, it's easier to change it on Facebook. Facebook doesn't care if you're a real business or you just started a house

[Heather]

for a little bit of a check. It's not, it does go, yeah, it's kind of like it.

[Corey]

But Google, if you change the business name, if you change the business website and if there's an onslaught of reviews trigger something through there.

[Heather]

Consider, consider Google side of things. If they, if you built, let's say Corey's Cory's cookies and she got 100 five star reviews and then suddenly she's like Corey's weapons manufacturer. She changed business. So now it looks like a really highly rated not what it. So Google would have a reason to flag that. Now we might say, well, that's un. That Google's flagging that with the reviews thing. But imagine you get in a news story and you get the onsite of people who have never purchased from you doing that. What I consider Internet bullying. When you, when you review a business you have no affiliation with, but you just formed an opinion from a story you read online without doing any investigation. Google does have a. That would be considered a Protection.

[Corey]

A protection. Yeah. So what they're doing, they don't know one from the other. They just know that you've got an onslaught of something. There's some. Some unusual activity somewhere. And you can only hope that if you're in negative light, they remove those bad reviews. But it's hard because if you're in the positive light, you're like, but I did earn those reviews. But it's having. If we know that on average we get a review once a quarter, we need to create that realm.

[Heather]

So two to three. A corner maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. But suddenly 10 and you're doing zero. That. That would be a ratio that's a little off.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Yes. So I like that that the. That the writer told us that feedback because I think it is important. Upcoming events collabs were tabling them not because anybody was wrong, but because we can't get participation with even all the parameters we tightened up at this last collab, I still couldn't get participation above 64% which for us is a failing grade. So that is a market saying it ain't it?

[Corey]

Girls?

[Heather]

Find some better place to spend your time. It takes about five hours to get that stuff off the ground. And that doesn't include how long it takes Cora to bake curse.

[Corey]

But I want to say just because we're not doing the collab is not the. The whole premise behind the collab is something I say preach for the mountain tops. Continue doing. Continue to highlight local spots in your area.

[Heather]

Main Street. Main Street. Main Street Showcase.

[Corey]

The new playground. Got a makeover. Those are huge ways. And the collab was just a way to get extra reach because we were getting comments that we wouldn't normally get. That's what the benefit was.

[Heather]

Challenge people with a little out of the box box topics like the blind

[Corey]

pumpkin, the blind piping challenge. I totally enjoyed the last one where we did hobbies and I learned about people.

[Heather]

I think some people had some really interesting hobbies. Me not one of them. But you guys loved reading those upcoming events is a mid summer membership sale that'll be the first week of August and run for seven days. We're running. I've gotten Cory to approve my. My discount plan so I'll have that listed on the cookie college website. We'll switch over to the midsummer membership sale for that week so you can see all the delicious goodies. If you were thinking about some past cookie class kits, maybe now, maybe if you're thinking about getting some past boot camps, maybe now would be the time if you're thinking saying, I want it all and I want it all for one low price. Possibly the cookie college would be the time. But after next week, there is no sale until Black Friday. And that's a single day sale. So if you're like, hey, I'd love to use my downtime, which is the J months, we're coming to the end of July. You got a little bit of August for some breathing room. Now would be the time to jump in on these, especially getting some of those Christmas cookie class kits.

[Corey]

Oh, the Christmas ones. And then I'm working on the Christmas one for 2026. But I've gotten the Halloween one down, the November one down.

[Heather]

She's wearing a.

[Corey]

She is 5 vendy blendy time.

[Taylor]

We'll. We'll have.

[Heather]

So yeah, I've got some great. We'll have some great sales running next week. The Vendee Blendy is the one day baker sale that we run on Black Friday. That's in 17 weeks. That's on November 27th. Major holidays. Back to school. Some of you guys are already back to school, which is horrifying to me. But for us, it's in four weeks. Labor Day is in six weeks. The NFL season starts in six weeks. Canadian Thanksgiving is in 11 weeks, is about three months. And same with Halloween. So once we get. And the reason why I have Labor Day here is not because it's a big baker sale day. Like it's not a bumper crop day, but it signals the beginning of the shift to go time. It's September 7th, which I find that Sept. You know, we got the back to school warming.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Heather]

Warm up. Right. So if that's in early August for you or mid August, it gets everyone locked back in. They're back from a vacation. Then we switch the calendar over September, which gets everyone into fall mode.

[Corey]

Oh, I'm in fall mode, baby.

[Heather]

All of the. And I always love it when the other stores align with the baker's goals. Right. So once Bath and Bod Works comes out with their fall line permanently,

[Corey]

we're ready.

[Heather]

Yeah, Bath and monitors, like, we need some sales. Give them the pumpkin spice. But you know, then you have like Walmart coming up with its fall stuff and you go to Wegmans and it just fall threw up everywhere. And the mall kind of feels. And then when the weather locks into, oh, I feel like I'm in Top Gun, like saving the world. And then we have Halloween. Veterans day is in 15 weeks. And then after that we go to Thanksgiving, Black Friday and Christmas. Hanukkah New Year's cream. Oh, the stmi. I'm out of second. I got one text in from the two eight one. Hi from Texas. It's Karen again here with some cool news. My university newsletter is going to feature one of my rte. I figured this would be a great way to increase my SEO AEO visibility. I can't point it back to a specific episode, but I'm pretty sure I learned about it from y', all, so thank you so much. Wow. Congratulations, Karen.

[Corey]

That's awesome. And putting yourself out there is a gamble. And I know Taylor talked about it. That's the scariest thing about marketing, putting yourself out there. Because what if they don't like me?

[Heather]

What if somebody says, yeah, I can't delete their comment, especially when it's on there. But qu. And I say even a bad comment still engagement, like, that's what we have to tell ourselves. Like somebody that hates us. Thanks for commenting that, you know, like, so, you know, thinking about it, you still know our names. So what she said is SEO and ao. So SEO is Search Engine optimization, which I talked about when you go to Google and you search something, but now when you go to Google, it defaults to the AI answering your search query, which is another fancy word for question. AEO is Answer Engine Optimization, which is how do you write things so that you are the answer to the question AI is helping somebody ask. Yeah, that's been my forethought recently because I come from an SEO background. But really integrating to this aeo, which I'm like, that's not fair in terms of let's say you got the website to rank and now AI is like, yeah, this is the answer. Like, I did that. But it is citing its answer and they're saying that the Internet will move to a paywall for the AI to ping the website where the answer lives. It's just a theory. From coming up to our sponsors, Cookie Design Lab use code twins to get 15 off. They're always adding new features. I was just talking to her about some new features that they've added. So you can go to their YouTube video, their YouTube channel to find some of the tutorials on that. It's on their website as well. And also go to their Facebook page and see the new content that they're posting with these new features. I think they introduce stencils. And like I said, it's one of the easiest tools to make an SEO, right? Yeah. And if we're talking about all these tools to kind of reduce friction, creating and Printing your own cookie cutter reduces a ton of cost and friction points and time. Just time, man. And money going to shipping and I love. I love my FedEx guy. I love that, man. But being able to print it downstairs immediately when the there within an hour. Not a bad trade. Not Bakedy Bake is the meringue powder that Corey loves. I know there's a ton of meringue powders out there and one may be a better fit for you, but if this is something you want to try, if you're looking for something a little bit fresh that includes the ingredients you don't have to add, use Code twins to get 10% off there.

[Taylor]

Love it.

[Corey]

Three, three ingredients are in it. So it's vanilla flavoring. There is white food coloring.

[Heather]

There's corn chip, which gives it a soft bite. Soft and bite. Daisy makes code twins 10 gets 10% off her social media is really fun. She's a blast. They did a collab on Friday. If you had, you know, Daisy makes is cake pops for cookie people. I like that tagline she came up with. But she had a collab on Friday. If you had a cake cart or a cookie cart and you participated in their collab, it was, you know, it was real quick. Posted up on Friday, one person got a ticket to upcoming what's Popping Con.

[Taylor]

No way.

[Heather]

That's. Yeah. So what a genius way to do it. Daisy Minx is got some really cool marketing tactics that they do and it's really fresh. It keeps it really interesting. So if you want to really see how to get some new ideas of marketing, go to their page. And then if you want to introduce a new product, Corey swears by their. Their Daisy Makes system.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Love it.

[Heather]

Now, Primari Eddie is the edible food printer that we talked about in the podcast and we reference it a lot. I know we have an announcement for it, but I don't think it's this week that we're announcing next week. Next week. So Cora will be announcing it. So you remember that because I won't.

[Corey]

Okay, I will.

[Heather]

But the direct to food printer. Corey's not a painter. I've never painted a day in my life. So if you're not the painting type, being able to print directly to a cookie, specifically these complex logos.

[Taylor]

Those.

[Heather]

Did you have any concept of this? What are you scrolling down to remind?

[Corey]

I'm writing my. Remind me to do it next week

[Heather]

for this cookie cake that you're supposed to sketch out. Are you going to use Eddie for something?

[Corey]

So we're still coming up with the Designs. There's a logo on there, so if she wants the logo, that'll be it. But it's a very easy logo to pipe, so I could probably do that. But I love Eddie for a lot of the backgrounds. And some of the popular themes right now are these dot one ones. And it's, like, fun to be one there.

[Heather]

It's not.

[Corey]

You can't say like, dot theme, but it looks like dot cakes. But there's dots everywhere. Eddie is perfect for a background. And then you add a few pipe dots on it. Saves you tons of time.

[Heather]

I really like that in Bosch Nutrimil. Not a sponsor, but an affiliate. Dakota Sugar Cookies. And you get 20 off. And Corey swears by that Bosch Universal plush. She does have it in silver. I got it. Me and her husband got it for his gift maybe, too. But you could get the white one and it's a little cheaper. But it doesn't have the stainless steel bowl that you like.

[Corey]

So the stainless steel bowl is what I do like because it's an easier clean. But I have our TE and that comes with only the plastic bowl. I still find that that's. That I don't know. The stainless steel bowl just mixes better. And that's a mental issue with me. It might not.

[Heather]

Who knows? I don't know. Somebody still. I'm like, it's not shaking or anything. I don't know.

[Taylor]

Know, right?

[Heather]

If you believe. Do you have any twin dress before we cut everybody loose?

[Corey]

A twin terrest. Twin tear. Do you have a twin rest?

[Heather]

I know you're asking that because you didn't think of yours. I'd like to tell everyone I have. My dad has been coming over every two weeks since I moved to mow the lawn. But he's out of town for three weeks and I had to make the judgment call. The grass is too grassy. So I saddled up the old outdoor shoes and turns out you need a pair of outdoors shoes and they're always in line. Yeah, yeah. So I got shoes that have been, like, just worn to bits. And I'm like, you're now my outdoor shoes and you'll be a shade of green. And I have. I have no snootiness about mowing things. I didn't want the gasoline smell sitting in the garage. So I did get the electrical mower. Yeah, make fun of. Make fun of me. It lasts. You have the whole yard.

[Corey]

Does it have a cord or is it plug and play?

[Heather]

It's battery. Oh, battery. Yeah, yeah. So you load up the 40 volt. So I did it. It's a self propelled push. But I was like, this is more push than propel, especially up that hill. I mean I can only do so much with a. I have never edged, I have never mowed. I edged once when I was 16, but I have never mowed. And then I have. I used the blower to clean out the garage. But this is good for you. You needed to get.

[Corey]

I looked up on my land and

[Heather]

I said, man, it was good. Like it was rewarding. I was exhausted, it smelled terrible. I was covered in grass. Grass was in my socks, my socks were green. I don't know how it happened, but I did it. I picked the weeds. I edge and I found a hornet's nest spray. I went to Walmart immediately. They were, they were forming the thought of the nest. Like they were all, they were too busy. Like I'm mowing, knock into this pole that holds up the ac, I guess. And I'm like, yeah, you see a bunch of hornets building the nest. Nest. But they're too. So what did you do? Finished mowing. But I didn't mow that area. Run to also lots of bugs outside. Tons of bugs. So I run to Walmart, I get Hornet's nest killer and this like spray the foundation of your house and create a barrier for bugs. Because they say, I think, see a lot of spiders. You have a lot of other bugs. Yeah, they're eating the bugs. They're eating the bugs.

[Corey]

Here's the thing. I think you live at Walmart. I think you go every day.

[Heather]

Yeah, I started, I decided to shift my entire day up by two hours. So I wake up and go to the gym immediately. So I go to the gym. Then I was like, let me stop my Walmart. Walmart in the morning is a different place. I'm the only person there. There's no carts in the way, there's no lines. So in the morning I'm like, what? What do I want to get for the next few days? Because I'm going back to the gym in two days.

[Corey]

Interesting that you go to Walmart as

[Heather]

often as you do. I love, I love the Walmart. I love the Walmart in the morning. If it was only Walmart at 5pm, I would have liked it.

[Corey]

See the reason why I'm not I my Walmart.

[Heather]

And I wouldn't go to her Walmart either.

[Corey]

No, I wouldn't go to my Walmart either. My car takes premium and I have an oil change coming up, so I've been trying not to drive it at all.

[Heather]

The gym is in Walmart's parking lot.

[Taylor]

Lot off.

[Corey]

That's the one thing I will say. The husband's come in useful. I've made him to drive me to the gym.

[Heather]

So my husband of myself, I have to go.

[Corey]

My car is not being used because

[Heather]

I know an oil change is going

[Corey]

to cost me some money. So I said, let me just not drive it. And then it'll be a giant paperweight that I just look at from time to time.

[Heather]

Yeah. You know, if you ever have to spend money on something, you already have to keep it the way you had it. That's the worst way to spend money. That's the worst. It's the worst.

[Corey]

I did wash my car, even though it was a giant paperweight and I

[Heather]

need to wash my car. But in the land of West Virginia with the biggest bugs I've ever seen, it's just one drive. It's just covered again. I need the fall. I'm a fall girl. What's been your energy bill?

[Corey]

Have you gotten an energy bill or is it like.

[Heather]

Yeah, it's an scene. Air conditioning. Also.

[Corey]

What's your.

[Heather]

You the fan I got for my birthday last year. Yeah, me and that fan buddies at the hip. What's been a bill?

[Corey]

What's been the price of a bill?

[Heather]

1120. Is that higher level?

[Corey]

Well, my. In my summertime, I'm at the highest height of my energy bill. I just got it taken out today.

[Heather]

Do you want to guess?

[Corey]

I live in a townhouse.

[Heather]

187. That's ridic. And it's. Are you half insulated on the sides by other people? Both are insulated on the sides, but

[Corey]

it gets so hot. Yeah, but I said I could make my money back in the fall by like turning off. And then I don't.

[Heather]

We don't use the heat. It's like 50 degrees. You know what I'm saying?

[Taylor]

I'm.

[Heather]

I'm conscious about that number because I'm like, this is ridiculous. I've set up my laptop in the basement where the AC is produced. It's considerably colder in the basement using that fan a lot because sometimes I'm like, I'm not hot. I just overheated. And the fan would bring that. Just body temperature, just like a livable weight.

[Corey]

Is your water bill big? My water bill seems like it's the same amount every single time.

[Heather]

My first month here, the water bill was high because I was trying to get the sod to take. And then people on the Internet, there's a subreddit for lawn care. And they were like, you're watering too much. So now it's gone back to one like 1919. 119 oh, 119.

[Corey]

Mine's it's always 88.75 8875.

[Heather]

And it must be do. Are you on a plan that.

[Corey]

It's so I, I don't know. When I first moved in, it was 401 payment of 400 and I think

[Heather]

that sure wasn't a startup or something.

[Corey]

I have $400, but then it's been the same ever since at 75.80.

[Heather]

So I'm trying. Let me go. Let me correct my water bill. Don't send me. Oh yeah, 118. I said 118. So that's what I'm averaging.

[Corey]

How are your thoughts towards that?

[Heather]

I think that's ridiculous.

[Corey]

Is that what it's been every single month you've lived there?

[Heather]

No, that first month they sent me a warning, warning, warning. Leak not detected. Water bill through roof. That was what I was trying to get the saw to take because apparently they were like, you gotta water it.

[Corey]

So has been 118 every time.

[Heather]

Now it is now that I'm not trying to get the grass today, of course, you know, drought season, they put milk.

[Corey]

I don't even water outside. I'm not water in the grass.

[Heather]

Yeah, I, you know what? I look at the neighbors and they didn't water in that first month and now they have a bunch of dirt. And I imagine that's that same cost, but more effort down the road if you want the grass to take, take.

[Corey]

Yeah, I don't know. My neighbor keeps mowing my lawn, killing it and then wanting me to say thank you.

[Heather]

So, yeah, I watched my neighbor scalp that utility strip that we share. Yeah, I was like, you know, I can't complain. But also that's set so low. Your bow is set strong.

[Corey]

But then what do you say? Like, stop being nice, you're being mean to the grass.

[Heather]

I have learned a little bit about landscaping since moving here because I decided to try to make this kind of a hobby. And don't worry, it can suck up all your time time. There is a sudden sprouting of these really tall grass blades that don't look like the other things. And frankly they look a little weed like they're called crabgrass. They thrive when the grass is dying. The only way to kind of. You can pre treat your lawn back in the April, but once it starts growing, you kind of gotta do a handpicked weed thing. Otherwise it's, it's rough. Right. So the best way to weed prevention is make the grass so healthy it chokes weeds out. That's always the goal. But this crabgrass. So every, every afternoon for like 30 minutes, I just go hand pick, pick the, the ones they're very weak rooted, so you can just puck them out.

[Corey]

Yeah, it's kind of dopamine I get when I.

[Heather]

Instead of picking your face, at least you're picking your. The neighbor. They have ton of it and it's gotten like some height on it. I look out the other day, there's these piles of dead crabgrass. So I said to him, did you go pick your crabgrass? Yes. They spent eight hours, him and his wife picking root. By root, which I mean like that's your whole thing because everything else is just dirt.

[Corey]

But they probably hate that you moved in. Cuz they're like, oh, she's out there again doing something.

[Heather]

I guess we gotta go do it too. Really. They're the barometer if my landscaping is working. Because I look in comparison to their yard. I'm like, yeah, it's still good. Yeah, still good. Still green. Yeah, still green. I was thinking is like as long as like I can get the crab grass at bay, I think I gotta do some like dad said I need to put like dirt in the dead smart. And then get the reseeding going overseeding in the fall. And then you kind of wait all winter. Yes. Yeah. Then it just becomes dormant. Yeah. I don't know. Utility bill is high, but it is really hot. I know the utility bill will kill me.

[Corey]

I have my son and husband. I said you can pick, but Archer's

[Heather]

been out of town for a one.

[Corey]

I know. So I don't know why, but I said you can pick one song to

[Heather]

take a shower to because my son

[Corey]

you time with a shower.

[Heather]

No, because he's. Here's the.

[Corey]

I. I want to just get in my son's brain and like understand this. He will have the house to himself. Especially during the summer. I'll go to the gym. Let's say I go to the gym at 6.

[Heather]

Archer showers are 45 minutes. I went on vacation with months.

[Corey]

But as soon as he hears the door open when I'm coming back from the gym, when I need to shower myself, it's almost like a reminder to him to run into the bathroom and then he uses up all the hot water.

[Heather]

So I said I asked Archer if he wanted to watch my cats at the beginning of August so I could go out of town. And Cor. So it's kind of weird because I have to ask him if he wants to before I can ask Cory if he can. So Cory's like, I know you asked him, because he's has to get this book report done. Them. And Corey's like, I told him, no cats, no book report. Corey's like, I've never seen a book report done faster.

[Corey]

Yeah, I. It was just like, can you give me my list? I said, I. I ain't that. I ain't your teacher. Go ask your teacher or ask your friends.

[Taylor]

And then, I don't know.

[Heather]

Use my cats freely to get manifested, I guess.

[Corey]

It was read. It was created. I don't know.

[Taylor]

I'm just glad it was done.

[Heather]

So Arch will be staying at my house, and we'll be giving him some Subway sandwiches as a bed. I got a text, and he's like, did the cats sleep with you? I was like, they kind. Kind of use.

[Taylor]

He's like, great.

[Heather]

I won't get a wink of sleep.

[Corey]

I think he's ready. I think this is good.

[Heather]

So he can decide if he wants

[Corey]

to live that cat life one day. My son is obsessed with cats. Unfortunately, both of our cats have gone over the rainbow bridge. So now he's living vicariously through Heather's cats.

[Heather]

And I think,

[Corey]

not that he ever scooped a Duke dookie when mine were alive. I was the.

[Heather]

But it's so funny. Corey's like, I don't think Arch knows how to scoop poop. And I was like, you know, necessity is a mother of invention. So I'm gonna tell him, here's my. I've never. The house was, like, fully vacuumed. Everything was. Yeah. Every day I watched him on my little camera, like, cleaning up everything. But I have some automations implemented now just in case. He told me he couldn't do it. I'm getting the cat. Cats. Like, I got this automated party and an automated food dispenser.

[Taylor]

Answer.

[Corey]

Well, the Fiat was hard because your youngest cat was eating that wet food.

[Heather]

And that's what I had to throw out today. Yeah. Uneaten wet food. I was wondering.

[Corey]

Not on wet food anymore.

[Heather]

You won't even look at it. He actually. I'm sorry. Walks up to it, takes a big old sniff, and leaves. Oh, that's just even ruder.

[Corey]

I guess at least you're free from that.

[Heather]

I guess it was supposed to be healthier. But then some veterinarians say it's not healthy at all because raw food. Raw food contains contaminants. But then Ashley's cancer.

[Taylor]

Raw food.

[Heather]

But I was telling Ashley about it. She does raw fed. And she was like, oh, cats see kibble as the human sees a Pop Tart. Like, why wouldn't you want them?

[Corey]

I think it's got the calories in

[Heather]

it, not just the protein. Whatever it is, watching that little cat run to it means it tastes amazing. Just to see his little fat bodash loving around. I like. Hey, that's me.

[Corey]

All right, it's lunchtime.

[Heather]

Speaking of, let me go down. Okay, I'll see you next. See you.