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Ballast Book Launch
Lieutenant General (Retired) Mark Hertling Talks If I Don’t Return—Part Battlefield Memoir, Part Father's Journal
01:08:14
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to another episode of Ballast book launch. I am honored to be here with retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, the author of if I Don't Return A Father's Wartime Journal. Mark, thank you so much for being here.
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B
My, my pleasure, Annie. It's great to be with you and finally come down here and see what you do here. This is great.
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A
Yeah. After a long evening. What time are you here till last night?
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B
Signing books A little bit before 10. Signing a bunch of books for you.
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A
How's the CL today?
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B
It's good. It's good, right?
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A
Well, there's so many people are excited for this book. So many people have pre ordered signed copies. The, the press is, is, is kind of going crazy for it. So we're super excited for this book. I was super excited to work on it, you know, as the, the son of a. Although as a military brat, which I did not know that acronym.
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B
There you go.
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A
Until you, you inform me in your book.
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B
Don't, don't give the spoiler alert on what it stands for if you don't
- [00:59]
A
know what military brat stands for. And I didn't as a military brat. The general does reveal that in the book, but I was super excited for this because this is a, this is a book based on a journal that you wrote to your two young sons in the first Gulf War in, in 1990 and 1991.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Tell us a little bit about why you wrote this.
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B
Yeah, it was interesting before we were told we were going to deploy, you know, we were watching because In August of 1990, the 82nd Airborne, the 101st, went into Iraq and just put up a defensive belt. So we were watching in Europe. In terms of which is where you were stationed. Yeah, I was stationed in Europe. I was in a cavalry squadron. A young major, young major operations officer of 1st Squadron, 1st Cavalry Regiment, which has, by the way, a great history that I didn't talk that much about in the book. It was the first cavalry unit formed in the United States Army. They were the ones that actually prepared the battle of Gettysburg under John Buford as the commander. And they had the same flag that, that we today in one one cab. But anyway, that's, that's a segue. It was interesting because we were watching an announcement by President Bush and Secretary Cheney on tv. On tv, Armed Forces Network like everybody else and what was going on. And they said, hey, we're going to send 140,000 soldiers from Europe to Desert Storm or Desert Shield at the time. And, and it was a surprise to everyone in Europe watching to include some of our commanders. So we were told that in November, immediately had to pack up and we started getting intelligence briefings. And in those intelligence briefings we were reminded that the Iraqi army had just fought an eight year war with Iran.
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A
They were the fourth largest military in
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B
the world at the time, fourth largest in the world. They had used chemical weapons against the Kurds, their own citizens. So the estimates were that as a cavalry squadron, what our mission was going to be, we would lose 50% to casualties, dead and wounded. So when you start thinking as an individual that you've got a coin flip chance of coming home and you have two young children, you want to leave them something. Two young children and a wife. So I started writing a journal. Not about the war or what we were doing initially, but just about things I wanted our two young boys to know as they were growing up.
- [03:28]
A
Right. Yeah. Filled with, you know, not just what you're doing in, in Iraq, but with life, life lessons for your son. Things that if you didn't come home, you wouldn't be able to, you wouldn't be able to impart on them. And there's. So the, the, the, the first journal entry is about emotions. And the reason, obviously it's the first one, I want to start with that. But also, you know, I certainly had emotions reading, reading the book myself and so, you know, talk a little bit about your emotions leaving, you know, the, the story, the story that you told about leaving in the, you know, leaving that morning and, and the hardest thing you ever did was driving, leaving that driveway, not knowing if you're ever going to see your, your children and, and wife again. Talked about your emotions that day when you left.
- [04:09]
B
Yeah, well, I knew I was going to leave in the wee hours of the morning because that's when we were going to meet up in our Casern in Germany to get on buses and go to the airfield. So I told the boys, they were 10 and 8 at the time. I told them, you know, go to bed, we'll say our goodbyes tonight and I don't want to wake you up, you got to go to school tomorrow. But neither one of them went to sleep and I went in their bedrooms to kiss them one last time a little after midnight. And they were both wide awake, but under their covers. Then as I drove away, I looked up into our, we had a little apartment. I looked up into the window and there's my wife standing there. It was snowing at the time and I saw my wife in the window and she was obviously Crying as I drove away. What I didn't know until about a week ago, Andy, this was new to me. My wife told me that she was standing there, she was hoping that I would get in an accident on the way to the airfield and not be hurt badly, but hurt badly enough to not go and deploy. And you got to remember too, this was during a time when the army hadn't deployed a lot. I mean, it's not like what the last 20 years have been in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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A
Really nothing since major, Since Vietnam.
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B
Yeah. So we were all relatively anxious about what was going to happen. So that was the conditions of leaving. And as I, as we got off into the desert and landed in Kuwait and then moved up to our assembly area inside of Saudi Arabia, we had our very first mail call on a couple days before Christmas. And I got a letter from the boys that they had written the day I left. And it generated some emotion, as you can imagine. And so I talked about the emotions of leaving in that, in that journal entry to them and how much I was, how proud I was of them and what they were doing and to take care of their mom and all that other stuff. And that really started the journal. That was the very first entry.
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A
And the first entry you did talk about your emotions in the first entry, but it really wasn't just about your emotions. You were giving them advice on how to handle emotions. And that's why I think the book is so powerful, because you wrote this for your sons, but it's applicable to all humans. Right. You know, everybody has to deal with emotions and you're giving them life advice on how to deal with emotions. Can you share a little bit about some of that advice that you gave them on?
- [06:41]
B
Yeah. Well, it's funny because a lot of people kidding me, I get choked up at different events, both happy ones and sad ones. You know, I'll see a graduation or a baptism of a baby or a wedding and I'll. I'll get a little misty eyed as. And sometimes it's more than that. So my wife has an expression. She says, I'll cry at supermarket openings. I'm so emotional. But you know, it's not just that. It's being proud of your emotions to know that you can smile from your cheeks and at the same time understand with empathy what other people are going through. So that's what I tried to explain in that very first chapter to the boys. And it was be proud of who you are. Show your emotions. Don't try and blank them out. Just because other People might make fun of you. And that's where the whole thing started.
- [07:38]
A
Yeah, that's what really struck with me. I mean, so if you, if you look, here's the, here's the journal entry on emotion. So it's italicized. That's, you know, we left type. Well, it wasn't type. So we left, you know, grammatical errors, which there weren't very many, but really keeping it true to your words. And we'll go, in a minute, we'll go into, you know, how this, how this came about. But you're, you know, handwritten, as we know. Very poor, poor penmanship, Horrible penmanship.
- [08:04]
B
As anyone who ordered, pre ordered the book and will get my signature. They'll see it right away.
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A
Um, yeah, I was looking to see if this is a sign. Wanted to show them it's not. But you know, so you have that piece and then you talk about a reflection afterwards explaining that, that part. And I think that's what's, what's so powerful. And you, you talk about people, you know, being how to be a good leader, being cool and, and, and helping people understand and embrace their emotions. And that's just one, you know, I, I shared with you earlier that I'm reading Marcus Aurelius Meditations right now and, and it kind of struck me that this is very similar, right? It's your, you're. It isn't necessarily stoicism, but it's taking a, a human. You know, that was 2,000 years ago, right? Something like that, that, that, that that book was written. And what it does is it's taking human emotions and things that all humans go through, even back then to this day, and it's helping other people look at them differently and, and how you approach, in this case, emotions. And the next one is, I believe, friendship. How did you come up with these topics? Were these things that you want they just come to you, or these things that you wanted to make sure that if you didn't come home that your sons understood and were. And were thinking about?
- [09:17]
B
Well, I was thinking about all aspects of life. And when I started, when I wrote the first one, I thought, okay, emotions is good. That's an aspect. And then I started just looking around at different things. And I would wake up every morning before the war started. We were obviously busy as we went into combat, but as we were in the assembly area, I would just take a look around at what was happening, you know, and write about something that struck me. So the second one, as the, as the soldiers of the unit were starting to come in about friendship. I just talked about the relationship I had with the other people in the squadron before we went to combat. And under the stress and strain of battle, those friendships became even tighter. And you can understand how they become important as a, as a part of life. So I talked about, you know, when you're going through school, kids, here's what you need to look for in a friend, someone who does these kinds of things and how you can be a friend in return, a good friend in return. And so in on every day I would just pick something up and that's why it's really so random in the first section of the book. And I talk about three sections. The first section is just kind of philosophy and rhetoric. The second section is all about the combat operations. And then the third section is taking what we learned in combat before we went home and reflecting on it. But that first section was just looking around the area some sublime to ridiculous comments. You know, I have one reflection and journal entry on MREs and how important they were and just those kinds of things that were random. But it also addresses all the kinds of stuff you face in life and sometimes don't even notice them.
- [11:12]
A
Yeah, and that's what I was going to say when you say random, but I guess life is random too. So you're picking these topics that again with the mind for going with the mindset of, hey, that this is for my sons if I'm not there to teach them these things. So I need to teach them, this is my way of teaching them about how to handle their emotions about friendship. And again, it wasn't, you weren't just in your, in your journal entries and your reflections, you weren't just talking about friendship or saying, you know, talking about your, your friendships with the people that you're serving with. You're giving the, giving them advice on how to approach friendship and things like the difference between acquaintances and true friends and how you only have a very few true friends in your life and what the criteria is for it. So again, I can just think of a, you know, if there's a young boy whose father was, was killed in combat, you know, he's not going to have anybody teaching these things. So that's why it's so powerful.
- [12:01]
B
Well, and one of the things I tried to do, as I'm sure you saw, is and you just showed the journal entry on emotions and it was almost a half a page, not quite. Well, what I then did as I came back to write the book and do the reflections on those original Journal entries. It's like, okay, what have I learned since about this subject? And the reflections are several pages long because it then takes the next 30 years of learning. And when you talk about friendships, what I was talking about in the journal entry were the people around me. What I took that in the reflections toward is all the people I'd met in my life, that there were some great friends, some wonderful acquaintances, and some people that you just kind of meet that suddenly become close to you in your life. So it is really a reflection of that initial journal entry.
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A
Yeah. So let's transition a little bit. We'll get back into some of the topics, but let's talk a little bit more about how this book came about. So you obviously wrote it over a period of what was about six.
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B
About six months.
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A
Six months from when you left for Desert Shield or staging for the war through combat. And there's some. Definitely some serious combat stories. One in particular that, that I wanna. I wanna go into a little bit more. And then, you know, the, the, the packing up and getting ready to go home and, and what you learned during this time. But tell us about Christmas morning. What year was it when your son. When your son gave you this.
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B
Oh, so, yeah, Christmas.
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A
So, yeah, so sorry. You came back. You came back, you had the handwritten journal. What happened to it? And between 1991 and 2000? 20.
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B
24.
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A
24. So what happened between those.
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B
So when I came back and this is the spoiler alert to the, to the book. I did survive. You know, I did. I did come home, which was good. But I had this journal that was handwritten about 60 pages in a green army notebook. And I still have that. I now have that notebook back. But I came home and the, the boys were still the same age as when I left.
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A
And you allude to it in the journal that you know that they're too young to read this.
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B
They're too young to you. They didn't. My thoughts on the war.
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A
Yeah. So, yeah. So what was your intention for when they read it and then continue?
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B
Yeah, well, at the time, in 1991, when I returned in June, you know, they, they weren't interested in it. So I, like a lot of other army gear, I threw it into a footlocker. It was when they became teenagers that I got it back out. They both looked at it. Yeah. Okay. This is interesting, dad. Thanks a lot. But then last year, now the two sons are 45 and 42. The youngest one asked my wife about it. Where's that journal that dad wrote? After he had seen it once and she got it out for him and gave it to him. And what I didn't know is he's got a tough job. I won't go into what he does. But he spent about six months typing up that journal into a Word document in Christmas of 2024, after we had. And I described this in detail in the book after we had exchanged presents with the grandkids and the kids and everybody was around the living room, all the kids were out, you know, doing their playing with their toys, building their Lego stuff. And our youngest son, Scott came up to me with a box and said, dad, I waited a while to give you this. I didn't want everybody else to be in here. And it was just the four of us, his wife and my wife and the two of us, and handed to me, I opened it up and it was the Word document that he had typed up, along with a lot of pictures that are in the book, inserted in the document. And it just blew me away that he had spent that amount of time trying to decipher my, my poor writing and, and not poor writing, Poor handwriting. Poor handwriting.
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A
Very good writing.
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B
Yeah, poor handwriting and typing it up. And he handed it to me and I again got misty eyed and emotional and I said, scott, this is, this is just a great gift to me. Thank you so much. And he said, no, dad, you don't understand. He says, it's a gift to you, but I'm tasking you with something. He says, this was obviously something you were doing for Todd and I to teach us about life if you didn't come home. But he says now you have five grandsons. So elaborate on what you've learned since 1991 till today, 2024, and write some more so that you can leave them with who you are, leave your grandchildren as you know, as you get older and pass away that they'll have something to remember you by. And by the way, Scott, our youngest son, is really into history and genealogy and that kind of stuff. So he was interested in, in the legacy of the family, I think. I don't think he expected me to do it, to be honest with you. I think he was giving it to me maybe as a pride, but truthfully, in the process, Andy, it became probably a labor of love that I did not expect. And I would disappear, as my wife said, My wife Sue said I would disappear into my cave, my small office off the kitchen, and be reflecting on this journal and giving some additional advice to people about the various subjects that I talked about to include, you know, my reflections on what had happened in the army over the last 30 years. Because there has been an unbelievable revolution in terms of how we fight and what we're asked to defend and those kinds of things. So it took about nine months to write it. I tried to take one journal entry every week and expand upon it just from thoughts, no very little historical references. I mean, I didn't go deep into history. It was just all what I remembered or what I was reflecting on based on the original journal entry and finished it in this year or last year, I guess, and send it off to you based on some advice I got from one of your previous authors, Bob Ronska and Navy Bob, who's written a great book about leadership and love from a Navy's perspective. And you came back immediately and said, well, first I think you gave me the stiff arm. You said, I'll get back to you in a couple weeks. I think to tell you if it's any good.
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A
I wanted to spend some time with it.
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B
Yeah. And you called the next morning and it surprised me. And you said, this is something that ought to be published.
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A
Well, that, yeah, I guess I don't remember that specifically, but that doesn't surprise me because what does surprise me is if I, if I, I knew that I wanted to look at this right away again. This really spoke to me personally being,
- [19:15]
B
you know, son of a, you know,
- [19:16]
A
my dad, military guy, military my whole, my whole life. And, and him going to a different Iraq war, but going to Iraq as well. And I was older, but I remember when my mom, my mom that called to tell me that he was going to Iraq. And I just remember though, and as a, you know, I was probably, you know, in my 30s, early 30s, and it still is a lot of emotions thinking about. So, you know, I just put myself in your son's, in your son's shoes at that time and getting this great gift from you. But what's interesting to me in hearing you talk about your process of writing it is that, and I wonder if any of this went into your, your thoughts as you were writing. But you obviously, you initially wrote the journal for your sons and then your son asked you to write more for your grandchildren. But this is not, this book is not just a legacy piece for your, for your family. This is so much more. This is a leadership book. This is, these are lessons and advice that everybody can take. Young, old, male, female, military, non military. And I told you before, I don't look at this as a military book. Yes, it takes place in a war zone from a, you know, a military officer. But it's more than that. It's more about family. It's about advice and it's about leadership. Did any of that enter into your thought process as you were writing that, hey, this is for more than just my family?
- [20:34]
B
Well, no, not during the process itself. It was specifically for the family during the process. And in fact, I feel a little guilty about it because it's turned from a family issue into something for a whole lot of other people. And I don't mean mean to be self promoting in terms of war or experiences or anything like that. I've never wanted to write a look at what I've done kind of book, which I didn't, I hope I didn't. But you know, there were some other factors that played a role because even though both our sons and one of their wives have served in the military, and my wife and the other spouse of our other son had experiences of their loved one going off to war, what I really wanted to talk about were the emotions of conflict, the evolution of the military and those two combined with the dynamics within a family. Because what you just said a minute ago about fearing for your own dad, you know, anyone who has a relative in the military is, is, has a mixed feeling or a mixed emotion of a great deal of pride in what they do, but also a humongous amount of fear when they're asked to do dangerous things that's hard to control inside the human brain, having pride and fear at the same time. And so I wanted to address all of those things, but also the importance of character and values and leadership and presence and development and growth and all those kind of things. And what I try to do is, is address those issues in every single reflection in one way or another.
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A
And I think you did a really good job. A good job of that. I think those things are what the book is about, wrapped under the context of, of war, of, you know, leaving your family.
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B
Well, you said before it was interesting, we were having a conversation and you said you didn't know what category Amazon would put this in. Yeah, talk, talk about that because I'm not familiar with how that works in the book writing.
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A
Well, and so Amazon, I'll put Amazon on the side because they have their own algorithms, their own way of very little rhyme or reason. And so we'll actually have them recategorize it, but then their systems will go and recategorize it again. And we looked it up. We, you know, and some of the categories don't make any sense. So I mean, more for. For us. And how I would categorize it, because I don't for. I. I put this first as a family story.
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B
Right.
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A
And I put it second as a leadership story.
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B
Right.
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A
And then I put it third as mil as a military biography. Because in order to. In order for this to work, for this setting to work, for your messaging to work, yes, I think it had to take place in a war zone with you leaving your family. But the messages aren't. It's not advice for how to win a war.
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B
Right.
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A
It has nothing to do with that. It's advice for how to live your life, for how to look at certain, you know, how to look at emotions, feelings, interactions with people, just everyday life that are. That it applies to the military, but transcends the military too. So that's the way I would category.
- [23:52]
B
You know, the other thing I'd say too, is one of the important things within the leadership arena is giving people memories. And memories come from stories of how you are either pulled together or torn apart. And in combat, that's especially important because you're pulled together as a unit doing what you're asked to do at the risk of death or injury, but from a pulling apart. That's what happens within families within a combat situation because they are separated by distance and time. So there's that. How do you deal with that conundrum of those two things, of being pulled together with a group of people who you're risking a lot with and for all the way to the family who loves you back home and is trying to stay a part of your life.
- [24:48]
A
Yeah. And I think those lessons actually probably transcend more than just military. Certainly when I think of police officers, law enforcement, every day they walk out the door, whether their children realize it or not, that could be the day that they don't walk back in the door.
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B
Yeah, Well, I mentioned that at the very end of the book. It was interesting because I left the military in 2013 after 38 years of service, and I've since been in health care, teaching at a business school, doing some things on cable news, writing a lot of. And it struck me that, okay, what I talk about in the book are crises, both in human emotions and actions, but also in just what you're doing. Well, everybody experiences those, and I'm learning more about that in teaching an MBA course and having worked in Covid or having worked in health care when Covid happened, that there's crises all over the place. So how you deal with Those is critically important. And there's some lessons, I hope, in this book about that.
- [25:52]
A
That's exactly right. That's why I say it trans. It transcends military. That's why it's not a military book. It completely transcends that. Everybody on planet Earth has experienced some, some sort of crisis, some sort of issue, some sort of something that they need to deal with. And I think that this book helps them immensely.
- [26:10]
B
Well, as we were talking about the title when this thing first started, our son that typed it up suggested if I don't return. And in fact, he wrote that on the front of the word document he provided me. And I said that's gotta be the title because it's so true. But as I wrote the book, I started thinking about it. You know, this could apply to anybody who drives to work one day, who forgets to kiss his wife goodbye or hug his kids the night before and is an auto accident, is in an auto accident or something happens that's a catastrophe. So you kind of have to look at every day as opposed to the potential of losing your life in war, you have to look at every day of your life as something that's a blessing and that you can really dwell on because you never know when you're going to get another minute to live.
- [27:07]
A
Yeah, that's absolutely right. So let's, if we can. I want to go into a few more stories in the book and, and so things like. So there. I can think of one. There were a few were. In your reflections you said, well, that journal entry wasn't entirely true and one big one in particular. And I'm very curious as to what. When your sons read that. So I'm sure you know which one I'm talking about. Where in the. I think it's okay to give this. To give this. This piece away. It's a bit of a spoiler, but reading the, reading the journal entry and then the, the reflection gives a whole lot more context. But, but during. This is actually after the war, there was the ceasefire.
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B
I think it was two days after the ceasefire.
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A
After the ceasefire. And so maybe tell us about the journal entry, the reflection. And then what I really want to want to know is when did your sons first read that or know what really happened? Because you didn't write the reflection until 2024. So did you ever share that with your wife, with your sons?
- [28:05]
B
I shared it with my wife. I share with my wife, but I never told anyone else about this. And what it was is we had been in several combat actions during the 89 hours that we were rolling into Iraq and going through, we had engaged several elements of the Iraqi forces, but I was in a Bradley fighting vehicle. So our engagements were anywhere from 200 to 1500 meters away. So there wasn't that up close and personal.
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A
The, you were killing other, the other soldier, the enemy, but you weren't seeing their face.
- [28:41]
B
Right. We, we were not experiencing that emotion. It was more of a reversion to training of what we had done on a range where you knock down a paper or a wooden target with your Bradley gun, 30 millimeter chain gun. So it was violent and it was charged to be sure. I mean the adrenaline was pumping in each one of our engagements, but you never saw the results. Well, a couple of.
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A
Smoking tank.
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B
Yeah, yeah, a tank. In fact, on one occasion our Bradley knocked out two tanks and with a, with a small caliber bullet, which was unbelievable. A. 30, 30 millimeter chain gun. And the result was the turret literally blowing off the tank because it burned through to the ammunition inside. But two days after the war, and this was never revealed in, in the original journal entry, I lied. I said we, that I had gone into a bunker and there was a, an Iraqi soldier in there and it's was an up close and personal confrontation. But I didn't tell the rest of the story until I said you, you
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A
said you fired kind of defensively and he surrendered.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
In the, in the original journal, in
- [30:10]
B
the, within the bunker, which was an underground bunker that this guy was living in for months probably. But what really happened is it was a reaction because he had brought his weapon up and I had my weapon already drawn, but I fired first and killed him three feet away. And it was not only that, it was the fact that when he fell he had a helmet on. And when his helmet came off, I looked at it and inside there was a photograph of his family, him with his family. Well, I mean that was, yeah, that was something I had never told anybody. And truthfully, it's haunted me over the years. I mean I still, the dreams are coming less often now, but every once in a while I'll tell my wife I had a bad night and she knows exactly what I'm talking about. And it's that memory that comes back and it gets to the point of how combat is controlled. Chaos. And commanders are responsible for controlling that chaos. Because if you don't control the chaos, if you let people get out of control and do things that their moral fiber says they shouldn't do, that it will cause a significant moral Injury. And we're talking a lot about that today in today's world where we have some people who do things that they shouldn't do. And what I'm saying, when you're asking a force like the military to go do something, especially as a commander, you have to be aware of the effects of asking people to go outside their moral boundaries. So that, that was that particular story. Yeah. And so that was a hard one to tell, by the way. And I debated with myself,
- [32:04]
A
did you know that you wanted to come clean, I guess?
- [32:08]
B
Well, yeah, you could call it that. But I debated with myself for a very long time. Do I do this or not? And I thought, okay, I'm being honest with everything else that I'm writing about what's happened in the 30 years since the war. I probably should be honest about this. And truthfully, after I wrote it, I gave it to my wife and I said, what do you think? And she said, I think it's. She told me she thought it was good to be in there. As you can imagine, I sent the drafts to both my sons and another guy who I mentioned in the book, Tupper Hillard, who was the executive officer of the unit above us. So we were in contact the whole time. And I think his response to this was holy. You never told me about this. He didn't know about it.
- [32:57]
A
So even nobody in the military even knew?
- [32:59]
B
No. So yeah, it was, that was a tough one to write.
- [33:03]
A
What was your son's right and so your sons didn't know until 2024.
- [33:06]
B
Yeah.
- [33:06]
A
What was their reaction?
- [33:07]
B
Same. It's like, holy cow. And both of them have seen combat.
- [33:12]
A
Right.
- [33:12]
B
And both of them have had those kinds of up close engagements. So I mean, I actually think it, it formed a closer bond.
- [33:21]
A
Have you talked to them about that and did they, did they share more with you about their wartime experiences?
- [33:26]
B
Yeah, they have. And in fact, recently. Well, I don't want to go into that, but, but one of the, one of our sons, we took a walk in the woods and, and he first time ever and it's been, he's out of the military now, but it's been, gosh, 12 years since he was in Iraq and he, he just completely unburdened during a very long walk in the war in the woods, that of stories that I had never heard before and was just flabbergasted with some of his experiences, which truthfully were much more difficult than anything I ever faced.
- [34:05]
A
And do you think that he was able to have that conversation with you because he Saw that you had done something.
- [34:11]
B
Yeah, I think so. I think so.
- [34:13]
A
So is there.
- [34:15]
B
And that's a great point to bring up because I hope that anybody who reads this book, and I know, you know, I was a major during Desert Storm. I saw action as a brigadier general and then later as a two star general commanding a division, I saw action, but nothing up close and personal that
- [34:33]
A
I know you were kicking indoors.
- [34:34]
B
Yeah, I wasn't kicking indoors. Not, you know, going in as part of a stack, you know, not those kind of things. So the folks who have fought the two wars we've been in over the last 20 years probably have a whole lot more vivid experiences than me. And that one experience for me caused me to return again and again in dreams and in thoughts to that occasion. I can't imagine what soldiers today are going through when they've had exponential number of those happen to themselves.
- [35:07]
A
Yeah. Especially in those two wars. Because, and I think you, you mentioned this in the, in, in if I don't return in those wars, it was a lot more upfront personal. We, since we were in, you know, in countries, in urban areas, we couldn't just bomb the shit right out of those places like we did in World War II or, you know, or other wars. We had to kick indoors. We, you know, Special operations forces.
- [35:29]
B
Right.
- [35:30]
A
Were a big part of that. So, yeah, they, they had, well, all
- [35:33]
B
forces, I mean, not just special ops, all forces were part of that. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:37]
A
Marines going door to door.
- [35:38]
B
Right.
- [35:38]
A
You know, in flu and everywhere else. Yeah, I think that's. Do you actually, do you think that's. Why, do you think that there's more. I don't know what we'll call it. Ptsd. Pts. Do you think there's, do you think there's more of that now after these wars because they were so sustained and because there was so much close, you know, close up front fighting, or do you think it's just a function of. Now we're more in tune with it and we're trying to, to talk more about mental health.
- [36:05]
B
Yeah, no, I, I think it's probably a little bit of both. You know, the history. I don't, I think I mentioned this in the, in one of the reflections that the history of post traumatic stress, you know, it was originally called a soldier's heart.
- [36:20]
A
Right.
- [36:21]
B
And a woman by the name of Elizabeth Sammet, who's a professor of English at West Point, wrote a book called the Soldier's Heart that's very good about the emotions of combat going back to World War II. Then it became battle fatigue and soldiers getting slapped by Patton and those kind of things to the point where it's now either post traumatic stress or the extreme part of it, post traumatic stress disorder. But again, I go back to Andy. It's asking people to do things that the human mind is not meant to do. Putting them in a situation when they're fighting for the country, when there's extreme kinetic activity and violence that, you know, it just shocks the senses. So I don't know if it's. If it's more or more attention to it. I think it's a little bit of both.
- [37:14]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good thing that there's more attention to it and that, you know, soldiers and veterans are, are hopefully getting more help. Whether it's, I don't know how you feel about, like ibogaine and alternative plant based medicine. Yeah. You know, hyperbaric chambers or, you know, magnets. All the different type of things.
- [37:31]
B
Right.
- [37:32]
A
Hopefully, hopefully are helping. Was it cathartic to. To write that reflection and then in general to write the book?
- [37:39]
B
It. It was very cathartic to write the book. That particular section, that one chapter about the killing was really cathartic. But truthfully, I'm still asking myself, should I have done that? Should I have let that come out? I'm kind of glad I did, but I wish people didn't know that about me, to be honest with you. But going to the catharsis of the book. My wife was extremely happy that I was writing this. And she'd come into the office every once in a while when she thought I was working, and I'd be sitting there rereading something I had just written. And it was just a mess because the catharsis of coming back to the event and expanding on it gave me tremendous insight into what we ask other people to do and how we lead and how important it is to have the kind of character that you need to lead other people in crises, situations. So, yeah, it was. The whole book was cathartic. And I hope other people see it for the lessons that it teaches them. Not so much of what it is, what was written about, what I experienced.
- [38:59]
A
Yeah. What. What was the most challenging part of writing it?
- [39:05]
B
Remembering.
- [39:06]
A
I was, I was impressed with your, with your recollection and. But there were some cases where you say, I don't really remember when I wrote that. But then you'd have other.
- [39:13]
B
Yeah, well, remembering for the reflection part. But I've looked through it a bunch of times and there's. There's been a couple occasions where I said, oh crap, I forgot about something that I didn't include in the, the text. So, you know, I think we're, we're made to the point where our memory, our memories give us the right things to, to remember. I don't mean to get too philosophical here, but it's often good that we forget some of the worst parts of our lives and we don't remember them.
- [39:50]
A
Yeah, well, it's funny you say that because I imagine that, that, you know, that was your first. You did many, had many combat deployments after that. Unfortunately, we were in war for, you know, 20 sustained years after that. But that, that being such a short period, but I imagine that that was, am I right, part of the best but also worst part of your times, your life.
- [40:10]
B
Yeah, the, the, the four days of actual army combat. You know, there was the run up with the air force for 45 days that we were watching very closely. Yeah. And we were seeing the effects of it when we rolled into Iraq too. And some, sometimes the non effects that people were publicizing that actually didn't happen, but it was intense. But from the standpoint, you know, it's kind of like a pilot. I once heard, you know, an airplane pilot tell, tell me that, you know, flying an airplane is, is seconds of terror with a whole boredom in between.
- [40:56]
A
I think I've heard people describe war like that.
- [40:58]
B
Yeah, well, individual fights. Right. But in Desert Storm, it was a four day period of intense fighting that most people don't understand. A lot of people, a lot of Americans think, oh, it was a cakewalk we went through. You know, they gave up everybody's hands raised a lot of, a lot of prisoners. And yes, that did happen. But there were a lot of fights too. But in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it was 9 months, 12 months, 15 months of dog years, as I once heard it called, where you're just continually doing the same thing over and over again. As a senior guy, it was dog years for me. I can't imagine the young trooper on the ground who was like you were saying before, kicking indoors every day or going house to house and every single day, patrol after patrol for 9, 12, 15 months, depending on the service and the time that they were deployed.
- [41:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. There were even, you know, cases where you talked about where people's, you know, deployments got extended. They thought they were going home and how hard that that must have been for them. But again, going to your, your lessons and I think we do a really good job in here. We talk to authors about this all the time, which is show, don't tell, you know, don't, don't tell them how to deal with emotion. Show with stories and anecdotes. And I thought that's a really good example of how. Actually General Dempsey, I believe, is the one who, who told you how to, how to handle that. How to, how to handle that disappointment. So again, it's a, it's a life lesson for everyone how to handle disappointment. Those soldiers thought they were going home or supposed to be going home. And I believe you flew back to Germany to tell their families. Can you tell a little about that?
- [42:40]
B
It was interesting. We were, we were at the very end of a 12 month deployment in 2004 where we had suffered a lot casualties, I think close to 100 at the point when we were extended. But I was, as the assistant division commander for support, I was at the time down in the ports putting people on planes and buses and putting equipment on boats. And I had been down there for about a week because we were drawing to the end of our 12 months. And I got a call from my boss saying, come back to Baghdad, which is where we were, because we were told we're staying. And so I got back and General Dempsey, who was the division commander at the time and probably my best friend in the military, called all the commanders and sergeants majors together and told them, hey, we're staying. We don't know how long we're staying. It turned out to be three more months. But it was at a time of danger in the Iraq society when Muqtad Al Sadr was having an uprising and it was pre civil war. So in that meeting, General Dempsey said, you guys got to go out and put on a good face because everybody's disappointed. We all want to go home. We were all leaning toward going home, but leaders don't have the right to have a bad day. So you gotta kick some stones, rocks,
- [44:07]
A
and then get mad for a minute in here and then go out and
- [44:10]
B
then go out and show them what to do. But then he turned to me later that afternoon, he said, you know, Mark, he said, we gotta let the families know what's going on. And we were deployed from Germany, so our division was in Germany at the time. So all the families were spread out all over the landscape of Germany. Most of them, we had one unit from Fort Polk and another one from Fort Bragg. But he said, go back to Germany and tell the families what's going on. He said, it's going to be another combat deployment for you. And he was kidding when he said it, but it turned out to be true. It was unbelievable. The emotions, the anger, the lack of understanding, which is understandable. What the spouses were feeling, the looks on the faces of the kids that were expecting their moms and dads to come back home from being soldiers. In fact, there was one battalion commander who had already left part of the advance party of our aviation unit, and the battalion commander had already been welcomed home. And a picture, I think I talk about this in the book. A picture was in the local newspaper in Germany, Hanaud Paper, of him hugging his wife at the Yellow Ribbon Room. And before the picture came out on the newspaper, he was back in Iraq. So not only were we told we were extended, but the people who had already gone home had to go back. That was rough. Yeah, there was a lot of stories out of that one.
- [45:46]
A
Well, one thing that I learned from my military experience, which was being a dependent for 18 years, is that whatever the military tells you, the opposite's going to happen.
- [45:55]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [45:56]
A
That's just kind of, you know, we learn to roll with the punches.
- [45:59]
B
Well, and if I can say one more thing about that particular operation, if you'll call it that, when I got back home, of course, my wife needed me. I hadn't seen her since I deployed. And I said, here's what I'm going to do in each one of these locations I'm going to go to. And they were all theaters and places on different bases. And she said, no, you're not. She said, you're not going to tell them how you're needed down there and how you guys got to stay to finish the mission, all that. She said, you tell them that, and it's not going to be good. She says you have to listen to them and let them vent and take every single question they ask and be a punching bag. Yeah, she didn't say that, but that's exactly what she was explaining for me to do. And it's an abject lesson that we should all learn is to listen to our wives whenever they say something, because they're usually smarter than we are. And that's what happened. I mean. And in each one of the places I went to deliver the news, there was anger in the crowd. And just by saying, okay, here's what we've been asked to do. We're gonna make it as best we can. We're gonna try and keep your soldiers safe. What questions do you have? Or words to that effect? And then listening for two or three hours at each location the anger eventually dissipated and people began to understood. But it. It was truthfully one of the tougher things I've ever done in my life.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah. Well, on a positive note, with your. What you wrote about Germany. As someone who lived in Germany, I love to talk about the. You have a couple things in common. Hefeweizen. Sounds like you were Hefeweizen guy.
- [47:41]
B
Huge Hefeweizen guy.
- [47:42]
A
Not crystal Weitzen.
- [47:43]
B
No. Well, I mean, I can handle a crystal bison, but heavyweights. And it's better.
- [47:47]
A
I like the Hefeweizen, but I also was in high school.
- [47:49]
B
Yeah.
- [47:50]
A
When I lived there, so I guess.
- [47:52]
B
But you were able to drink it even in high school, right? Legal.
- [47:54]
A
Once I was 18, I guess, legally. But, you know, they don't. We. We had our pub when we were like, you know, 16. The. The Irish pub in downtown Kaiser Slaughter. And they didn't care. We'd go in there. You know, I. I had one whisker on my. On my lip and I was having Hepavitz in there. So. Yeah.
- [48:09]
B
You better explain to your listeners what heavyweights and is, though.
- [48:12]
A
Yeah. Heavy. It's a wheat beer. Yeah, it's a German wheat beer. I guess it would be kind of similar to a Blue Moon. That's a week. That's a Belgian wheat beer.
- [48:21]
B
Yeah. And it's. It's like having a Rolex versus a knockoff Rolex.
- [48:25]
A
Okay, that.
- [48:27]
B
Okay.
- [48:28]
A
I think that is a good. I think that is a good analogy because. Yeah.
- [48:31]
B
Once you. Once you have heavy bison, you'll never drink any other kind of beer.
- [48:34]
A
Yeah.
- [48:35]
B
I don't think. Personally.
- [48:36]
A
Do you get. Are you able to get it?
- [48:37]
B
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [48:38]
A
I haven't had a real Hefeweizen.
- [48:40]
B
Yeah.
- [48:40]
A
Probably since I was in Germany.
- [48:42]
B
Special occasions Super Bowls this weekend. I've got a couple on ice right now.
- [48:46]
A
You brought me one. Right. My dad and my dad and I need a Hepavitzin.
- [48:51]
B
Yeah.
- [48:52]
A
Pills. He park pills. Because he was stationed in. In permissions. Did you have to. I don't know if you had to go to that.
- [48:58]
B
I was in Parmesans one time. Yeah. There was a storage facility there.
- [49:02]
A
Yeah.
- [49:02]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:03]
A
Huge warehouses.
- [49:04]
B
Yeah.
- [49:04]
A
I would work in the summer in those warehouses Again, I don't know what they're letting me. I was driving forklifts around. I didn't know what that guy was doing. 14, 15 years old, I guess because my dad was who. He was there that they just let. They let the officer's kid drive the forklift. But that was a fun Summer job. So let's go a little bit more, if we could, before we wrap up. I want to hear a little bit more about the book, about the process. You know, obviously this is the ballast book launch and so this is about the book and the, and the process. So we talked a little bit about, about your writing process and you know, you submitting the manuscript, what else was. And this isn't your first book. You've worked with a bigger publisher in the past, so maybe talk a little bit about the process. There's anything that surprised you, things that you liked, or even if the things that you didn't like.
- [49:45]
B
No, I, I first want to shout out your team and I don't mean this to be, you know, making it about ballast books. But, you know, the very first time we talked, I gained a great deal of confidence that this was the place I wanted to publish. But then the whole team, Journey as the person that pulled it all together. What's Journey? Journey Matheson, right is her name. Sarah Dev, who's the marketing person who's been with me the last couple months in this process. Emma, the editor, Reagan now who is, I guess the distributor. Is that right?
- [50:25]
A
She does a lot of things. Her title is Social Media Manager, but
- [50:27]
B
she does a lot of different distributions. Everything the organization does tells me a lot about your leadership of the organization and how smooth it has been. My first book was called Growing Physician Leaders and it was written on behalf of a healthcare organization after a program we put together. And it was, it was tougher, it was not as, as easy as, as doing this book with your organization. So I thank you for that. The process has been, you know, it's, it's just been smooth and seamless. You know, it's interesting. Whenever I have a question, I email one of your team. You know, I usually put you on as a CC just to give you situational awareness of what I'm asking them and either them or you immediately respond. I mean, it's really precise in terms of the effectiveness and the efficiency of the organization. It has gone much faster than we anticipated from the beginning. I don't know why that's been mostly you.
- [51:33]
A
Well, you've been great to work with. And we always tell our authors that we move quickly and efficiently. We don't rush to failure. But this is what we do all day, every day. Right. This is our full time job. We understand for most of our authors it's not their full time job.
- [51:50]
B
Yeah.
- [51:50]
A
And so it could take a while for you to get edits back to Review edits or to give us your feedback on cover design or any of the dozens of things that, that we need to do on your behalf. But you always got back quickly with clear. With a. You had a clear vision, really good feedback. Sometimes we'd make suggestions and you could say, nope, I don't like that suggestion and here's why and let's do it this way. And it was great suggestion. So I will give you credit for that. That that's why. And you know, may. It's. It seems a little smoother. Hopefully we make it seem smoother to the author. There's always so much. There's chaos in the background. But that's good to hear that, that, that, you know, that it went from.
- [52:27]
B
Well, there's got to be chaos in the background. I'll cite an example. We played with the COVID for a long time.
- [52:35]
A
Yeah.
- [52:35]
B
And it was interesting because there was sort of an early disagreement between you, Journey, Emma, who was the editor, and me in terms of deciding what to do. And there was a back and forth dialogue for like a day or two and we came to the right conclusions, I think. I love the way you all put the COVID together and everything you've got in it too.
- [52:58]
A
Yeah, exactly. What you, what you just talked about. You know, we talk about a collaborative process. And so we're, you know, as a hybrid publisher, we work for you, the author, when you're in the traditional and you're working with, you know, a big New York house, you, the author, work for them. They tell you what it's going to be. We have a much more collaborative process. And so when we have an author like you, who has a vision, who has good feedback, is responsive, it just makes for that much better of a project. And I mean, I couldn't be more thrilled with, with how the book turned out with, with everything. I mean, there's so many little things like, you know, things like spacing, the spot gloss, the embossing, just, you know, how it looks. Books. The photo insert just came out. Amazing. It's such a great book, I think, by the way.
- [53:42]
B
I think the photos really add a lot because it tells the different time frames as we move through from Desert Storm to Operation Iraqi Freedom 1 to 7 to Europe to people I worked with in Ukraine and connected all the dots. But there's also the family picture. So when I talk about people, they're in there, which is kind of cool.
- [54:07]
A
Yeah. And. And your sons are in there and they're, you know, in uniform later on life, like, so do you Think that your. Do you think that the journal. I'm sure your career. But do you think the journal had anything to do with them wanting to join the army or. They always. Is that always something,
- [54:25]
B
the two of them. Actually, if I can sing praises for both of them, because they're much better. They were much. They are. And they were much better authors than I was in terms of leaders. The oldest one was a runner and got a, you know, scholarship and drawn to Wake Forest. And also came up to us one day and said, hey, dad, what do you think about me taking ROTC when I'm there? And it's like, why the hell would you do that? Yeah. I mean, it was kind of out of the blue, the youngest one, who at the time was kind of our rebel, came up and said the only place he wanted to go to college was West Point. And it's like, you sure about that? You're not going to last there, you know?
- [55:15]
A
Did you think he wouldn't last?
- [55:16]
B
I did not think he would last. I thought he'd get in trouble. But he was. He turned in great performances. He was. Both of them are Division 1 athletes and great students. But I think it's. I'll share with you what our young. Our oldest son said when he decided to go into rotc. We were in Washington, my one tour in Washington, and he came up and he had a bunch of friends whose dads were not in the military. And I said, why would you want to do rotc? And he goes, well, you know, he said, I see all my friends, parents. And he says, I see all your friends that are in the military. And he says, I like your friends better. They seem to have a greater sense of value and purpose in their life, which shocked the hell out of.
- [56:01]
A
Very astute. True.
- [56:03]
B
Yeah. But from a high school senior and my wife and I, after he left the room, we were giving each other high fives. We must have done something right. But I think it's just living the life and seeing the value in a purpose driven, selfless life.
- [56:18]
A
It's interesting you say that. Interesting that he said that because so for me personally, growing up, I wanted to have nothing to do with the military. I, you know, I graduated high school in K town from a military.
- [56:28]
B
That's how we thought he was, though, too. Yeah.
- [56:30]
A
So that's all. That's all. So in my graduating class, 95 of the guys went to. Went right into the military. I think it was myself and one other guy who went to college.
- [56:42]
B
Yeah.
- [56:42]
A
And they were mostly both, I think that had something to do with both. Most of their parents were enlisted. My dad was prior enlisted, but was an officer, so I think that's part of why. But yeah, I wanted to get far away from the military, but I didn't. That the, the what he noticed about his non military friends, families, I never even had that. Now that I think about it, nobody I knew certainly in high school because we lived, you know, I went to school on a military base. Everybody was military, so I didn't know any civil. And you know, later in life I realized that's absolutely 100% true. But I didn't even realize that, that the civilian culture was different than the military culture. It was literally all that I'd ever known living on bases my whole life. I mean some places we live in, you know, we live in the economy, but. Yeah, but in, you know, in high school it was a, every single kid was a, was a, was a, that was the child of a. Right for the most part of an active duty service member.
- [57:34]
B
Yeah. It's a, it's a separate tribe.
- [57:36]
A
Yeah.
- [57:37]
B
Right now it is.
- [57:37]
A
Yeah. And I, I didn't realize and I think I only realized it until. Till recently and so, and, and they both did well in the military and, and it sounds like at least one's still doing something adjacent.
- [57:49]
B
Yeah, he's, he's one's in, still in the military. He's commanding a brigade right now. The youngest one is got out of the military, but he's still working for the government in another agency.
- [57:58]
A
Wow. So what, what rank is your. Is the son.
- [58:02]
B
He's a colonel. He's a colonel. Yeah.
- [58:04]
A
Wow. And so is he. Same track as dad.
- [58:07]
B
Dad. Yeah. I don't know. He's a whole lot smarter than I ever was. Yeah. I don't know what he's gonna do.
- [58:18]
A
Yeah.
- [58:18]
B
And I try not to influence either one of them in their careers.
- [58:21]
A
That was my next question. That has to be difficult having, you know, a, a dad in the position that, that you were in. That's, you know, that's like, you know, Wayne Gretzky's son or something like that.
- [58:30]
B
Well, I'll tell a quick story because Hurtling is an unusual name. And our youngest son, when he married this young woman, Lauren, who her last name was Harrington, also a West Point graduate. When she finally, when they finally got married, she got her new name tags and she sent me a picture with, you know, kind of pulling on her shirts showing the hurtling name tag. And the topic on the message was your. What did she say? Your. I can't remember what it was. Your new worst nightmare. You know that I'm now a hurtling. And after about a month she said, oh my God. Ever since I've been wearing this name tag and I was a general at the time, she goes, there's like tons of people coming up to me and say, is your dad general hurtling and all this. I said, yeah, I'm your worst nightmare.
- [59:27]
A
Well, she either gets treated a lot better or a lot worse or both. Right? I guess it really depends on who recognizes that name tag. But yeah, that has to be some big shoes to fill. Do you think that affects your son at all?
- [59:40]
B
I'm sure it did. They have. Neither one of have have told me that it has, but I'm sure because I've seen it in other people, you know, guys that I. We had a guy in our division in Baghdad whose father was a four star general and of course that was the first thing and he had an unusual name. And of course that's the thing.
- [60:01]
A
Schwarzkopf, was it?
- [60:02]
B
No, it wasn't. But it was close. But yeah, I'm sure they took heat. And at the same time, some people who enjoyed working for me said, your dad was a great guy. But now what I'm getting is anyone who meets either one of them are saying, boy, your son's terrific leader. They're doing great things. So it's a reverse process too.
- [60:23]
A
I imagine you're pretty proud of that.
- [60:25]
B
Yeah, they're pretty cool.
- [60:26]
A
That's a pretty cool thing. I was. I forget who it was. I think it was a podcast I was listening to the other day and they were talking about one of the definitions of success in life. Obviously nobody cares about your car, your clothes, your money, but if your adult children still want to hang out with you.
- [60:41]
B
Yeah.
- [60:41]
A
And I realized that as my parents are coming to my house this weekend to watch Super Bowl, I get to watch the Patriots hopefully win another super bowl with my dad. That's a pretty cool thing. So I'm sure that's something that.
- [60:50]
B
Yeah, when they're proud to hang out with you or they want you around and they want your influence on their kids too. Yeah, that's a. That's a good thing for sure.
- [60:58]
A
Influence slash watch them so that.
- [61:02]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [61:02]
A
Get a little.
- [61:03]
B
They never say that, but yeah, that's it.
- [61:06]
A
So yesterday was the first day, obviously that you held a physical. A physical copy of their book, of the book you signed a ton of. If I don't return yesterday, we have
- [61:16]
B
them 500 of them stack, we have
- [61:17]
A
them stacked over there. And this is a thick book. These are going out to people who have pre ordered directly from the website. What are you mo when you hand this to I don't know who probably your wife will be one of the first few you hand it to. What do you think that's going to feel like when you hand it to them? What are you most proud about? About actually having this book now?
- [61:37]
B
It is something that will last, first of all, but secondly, it depends on who I hand it to. Sue, My wife was part of this process. I mean she egged me on, reinforced things, was my listening ear, edited it for the first time. You know, she went through it as well, told me what sounded good and what wasn't so good. So we changed it. So she is, she's my editor as well as my partner. And that's kind of neat. You give it to people you served with. Like I'll be sending it off to all the people that wrote really nice comments like Bill McRaven and Marty Dempsey.
- [62:24]
A
We should highlight.
- [62:25]
B
Yeah, Bill McRaven, former Special Operations Command commanders, a friend of mine, Marty Dempsey, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs is a friend. Dan Daniel Silva, kind of a well renowned author in his own right. Yes. New York Times best selling author, I think a million times, 29 times. Yeah. His wife, Jamie Gangel, who I worked with at CNN. Barry McCaffrey who was a division commander during Desert Storm. Tom Shanker, terrific, terrific reporter for the New York Times. I giggle because we once wrote an article together. He was an embedded reporter from the New York Times with us in combat in 2007 for about four or five months. And afterwards we had built a great relationship of trust. So we wrote an article together entitled the Military Media Relationship. The dysfunctional marriage that stays together for the kids and the kids were from our perspective, the American public, from his perspective, his readers. So he's a dear friend and he wrote that really nice comment in the book, but there's just so many others that I could mention that it's going to be fun to give it to them. The most important one though, Andy, I tell you part of what you said before about what the work, what the book does is I want people to know about the military. You were saying before being a military brat yourself that you experienced it back in the day when there was a draft. We all knew people that were in the military and we were related to them because it was kind of an equal thing across the board. But now less than 1% of the American public serve. And they really don't know what it's all about. And they have misperceptions about what we do and how we do it and the family situations. So I'm hoping that there are some people who know nothing about the military who read this book and say, hey, these are real people doing real things, and they're important, especially in today's world where some of our institutions are being challenged for their substantive value to our nation. And that's what I'm hoping for, too, that we get different reactions from different kinds of people.
- [64:53]
A
Yeah. Interesting. I think you did a really good job of that again. And it doesn't seem. You're showing. Not telling. You're not. You're not preaching at anybody about the military. Not you, Bullpen. This is. This is how it is. You go to West Point, you go. But. So I think that they'll. Without even necessarily realizing it, they'll. They'll really see behind the curtain of what it's like to be in the military. But more and maybe more so and maybe more importantly, from my perspective at least, is the family.
- [65:20]
B
Yeah.
- [65:21]
A
And, you know, military you guys all talk about, the family is the backbone. That's the most important piece. Right. They're. You guys are doing your job. The only reason you can do that is because you have this family back home supporting you. You know that your wife is taking care of your kids. You know that everything is. Is good on the home front. And I think what you did a really good job of in if I don't return is you show what that. What that is like for the family. What it's like for the family. You talk about not just your kids and not just your wife, but you talk about when you went to Germany to tell all this, all the families that they're. That their loved ones weren't coming home from war when they were supposed to, and, you know, use specific things like the kid who was taking out an M and M every single day out of a jar for how many days until his dad gets home. And some of those things that really. So I. Kudos. I think that you've achieved that really, really well. And I think that for people who don't have any idea what it's like to either be in the military or be part of a military family, I think that if I don't return really paints that picture vividly for them.
- [66:25]
B
Yeah. I sent a copy of the PDF that you all provided to a good friend of mine who has not. Who does not have any experience with the military. And he read the introduction and he said he was. He had to walk outside afterwards because he didn't understand the implications of the things we do. And he just said, I would have never have thought that these are the kinds of things that happen. So if I can get that reaction from a bunch of quote, unquote, civilians that know nothing about the military and know nothing about, like you say, our families and haven't really seen the big picture of decades of service versus just decades an instance, then it will be a success, I think.
- [67:18]
A
And, and that again, is why I said I don't consider this first and foremost a military book, because I think that it will. That it will. That it does apply and that it will resonate with people who have no idea about the military. I think they'll learn a lot, a lot. Not just about the military. I think they'll learn a lot about life.
- [67:34]
B
Yeah.
- [67:35]
A
I think they'll learn a lot about leadership and they'll learn a lot about family.
- [67:37]
B
Yeah.
- [67:38]
A
So well done. We couldn't be more ecstatic for how it turned out. More ecstatic working with you. You've been absolutely amazing. And the, the press that that is lined up for you is. Is just really, really impressive. I think that a lot of people are going to see this book available now or available for pre order now. March 10th.
- [67:59]
B
10th.
- [67:59]
A
Okay, March 10th. General release. But you can order signed copies@ballastbooks.com if I don't return a father's wartime journal. General Markerling, thank you so much for being here.
- [68:11]
B
Thanks, Andy. This is fun. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.