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- [00:04]
Venetia Rainey
The telegraph.
- [00:09]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Hiring isn't just filling a role. It's about finding people who can drive results. Indeed Sponsored Jobs helps you match with the right candidates faster. Target candidates by skills, certifications or location. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs and and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring do it the Right Way with indeed,
- [00:41]
Tom Cotterell
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Kai Wright.
- [00:50]
Venetia Rainey
I'm Carter Sherman.
- [00:50]
Podcast Advertiser/Host
Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter.
- [00:52]
Venetia Rainey
We're a new show from the Guardian.
- [00:54]
Roland Oliphant
We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conference conversation and honest reporting.
- [01:00]
Mariam Mazroui
We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.
- [01:02]
Tom Cotterell
Stateside with Kyan Carter will come out
- [01:04]
Roland Oliphant
three times a week, Monday, Wednesday and Friday starting May 13.
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Venetia Rainey
Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:17]
Tom Cotterell
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.
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Venetia Rainey
Even the tortures and raping and everything, nothing was like before. They were cruel. But this time they have been bloodthirsty.
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Tom Cotterell
A short time ago, the United States
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Roland Oliphant
military began major combat operations in Iran.
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Podcast Advertiser/Host
Today, President Trump says Iran's Supreme Leader,
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Venetia Rainey
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei was killed in the attacks.
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Roland Oliphant
The Pentagon is weighing a takeover of that island as a way to force
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Tom Cotterell
the reopening of the Strait of Hormuz. Iran begged for this ceasefire and we all know it. Does anyone really think that someone can
- [02:11]
Venetia Rainey
tell President Trump what to do? Come on.
- [02:15]
Mariam Mazroui
I'm Venetia Rainey and this is Iran. The latest. It's Monday, 18th of May 2026. Hi everyone. Well, I'm back. I've had a week off. It's been 10 days since I last podcasted and 80 days since the war began. 40 days since the ceasefire was declared. So a bunch of numbers for you there. And another day, another warning from Donald Trump to Iran to make a deal with him or else. His latest threat reads for Iran, the clock is ticking and they better get moving fast or there won't be anything left of them. Time is of the essence. I think we can read into that signs of growing frustration with no diplomatic progress despite his trip to China last week. Frustration that we all probably share. Yesterday Sunday, Iran's semi official Fars news agency published what it claimed was the latest version of Washington's conditions to end the conflict. And there was actually a new concession in there that was spotted in the Telegraph story I read. And that's a demand for Iran to keep only one nuclear site operational. It's phrased as a demand, but previously America wanted Iran to suspend all nuclear enrichment for 20 years. Now it's saying they can have one nuclear site. So clearly there is some movement there, albeit at snail's pace. America is also still demanding, demanding the transfer of Iran's entire stockpile of highly enriched uranium to the us. And it's ruled out several Iranian demands. So it's ruled out any payment for compensation or damages, the release of frozen assets and a halt to the Lebanon War and the Strait of Hormuz blockade until a peace deal is reached. This morning, Iran has submitted a new 14 point counter proposal to the US. That's through the mediating country of Pakistan, but basically we're still in limbo. Trump is holding meetings to discuss restarting the war tomorrow and we'll wait to see what comes of that. But whether a deal is eventually reached or the war restarts, the UK is set to play a bigger role. It recently developed some custom cheaper missiles that caught my eye. These have been fitted to Typhoon jets and are perfect to help Gulf states fend off Iranian drones. We also saw last week that the UK announced more details of its Strait of Hormuz freedom of navigation operation, which included autonomous mine hunting equipment and drone systems. Now, just to be clear, that would be in peacetime, only if a deal is eventually reached. So joining me in the studio to discuss all of this is Tom Cotterell, our acting defence editor. Tom, welcome back to around the latest.
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Tom Cotterell
Brilliant. Great to be on.
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Mariam Mazroui
Tom. Let's start with these laser guided hydra rockets. Yeah, I mean, look, they sound pretty cool. Tell me about them and how they were developed.
- [04:41]
Tom Cotterell
They are interesting. They've got a very technical name, so it's technically called the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System. But yeah, you're right, it's a 70 millimeter Hydra rocket, essentially retrofitted with laser guided technology on it. So it becomes a precision munition. This was really good work. Certainly by the mid. We all know defence can be long when it comes to getting things through, it can take quite a while. This took eight weeks from conception to delivery.
- [05:05]
Mariam Mazroui
Eight weeks sounds really fast.
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Tom Cotterell
It was rapid. It was incredibly rapid compared to what we normally have. So they started doing initial tests in March and then a kind of live firing against a drone known as a banshee over in Wales. In April and it's in the Middle east currently with 9 Squadron already fitted onto Typhoons. These rockets are good, they're cheap. They're a fraction of the cost of Asran missiles that cost around about 200 grand or so that we have used previously in the Middle East.
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Mariam Mazroui
How much do these cost? Do we know?
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Tom Cotterell
We don't know.
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Mariam Mazroui
I have asked you just know a fraction. Okay, all right, yeah, just know a fraction.
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Tom Cotterell
I would say it's probably around a similar sort of price to an LMM system, maybe slightly cheaper. So around about maybe 30 grand or so a missile. That's a rough guess. I wouldn't take that as back, but the rough guess. So yeah, look, these things have got kind of a 10 kilometer range and they're pretty small. You can fit seven in a pod, which is what the Typhoon are carrying. So obviously that gives them really good offensive capabilities against Shahid Star drones. But also you can target drones that are on the surface as well. So if we're looking at Strait of Hormuz particularly, we've seen drone attack boats being an issue there. So there is the potential, if they're looking to be more defensive, they can be used for that. But primarily it's for Shaheeds and they're
- [06:17]
Mariam Mazroui
already being used in the Gulf to help Gulf states defensively, right?
- [06:21]
Tom Cotterell
Yeah, that's correct, yes. So it's been fitted out on Typhoons already. It's been out there for several weeks. There haven't necessarily been any confirmed Shahid shoot downs as of yet. But look, the technology's been tested, it's confirmed they can do it. So these things are ready to be used, they are ready to kind of deploy and if needs be, if they do need to get into action, they can be used.
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Mariam Mazroui
And were they created specifically to deal with what we're seeing in this Iran conflict? You said they were tested in March. Was this something, an idea that was already underway and they were like, let's pull this plan out of the kit cupboard.
- [06:51]
Tom Cotterell
So I mean the Americans have used this similar system for a while. It's been developed by BAE Systems. The rockets themselves aren't anything particularly special, but obviously when you're looking at firing 200 grand missiles at a shahedron, which may cost what, 15 grand or 50 grand depending on what sort of size they are, the maths don't necessarily work. It's going to cost a lot. So yeah, to build this rapidly, they're looking to try and develop something that's cheaper and more effective to use against these cheaper drones. Instead of using our more bespoke, slightly more advanced tech.
- [07:19]
Mariam Mazroui
Feels like a good sign to me. It feels like a sign of the sort of rapid innovation in the face of an evolving conflict that we see in Ukraine and that we know our defence industry is trying to mimic. But we've heard so many complaints from startups that it's really hard to get these sorts of things off the ground. So it feels like a good sign to me.
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Tom Cotterell
Yeah, look, it is good.
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Mariam Mazroui
We shouldn't overplay it.
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Tom Cotterell
It does show that we can do, we can deliver things rapidly if we want to. The difficulty, as you've pointed out, is the kind of delay we're seeing for defence firms and defence investment plan. Not out yet, still not out. Supposed to be out in the autumn. There's no sign of it yet. I've been told that potentially we might hear something in July, maybe that's going to be about a year later.
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Mariam Mazroui
And just remind our listeners, the Defence
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Tom Cotterell
Investment Plan is Defence Investment Plan. That's basically a blueprint for the next 10 years as to how the military are going to be spending their money, specifically what they're going to be buying on and giving a timeline as to when they'll be buying it.
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Mariam Mazroui
It's the money for the Strategic Defence Review that we had last year. Right. We need the Defence Investment Plan before any of that stuff can be put into place. Exactly.
- [08:14]
Tom Cotterell
It's delivering on what the Strategic Defence Review recommended last year and it's the kind of practical version of that.
- [08:20]
Mariam Mazroui
So you mentioned the Strait of Hormuz there. The other way that the UK is potentially going to be involved is this multilateral mission. They never have very good names for some reason, but the Strait of Hormuz Freedom of Navigation operation that Britain and France are leading on we. A series of plans, I think is the best way to describe it. Last week. Can you walk us through what the UK is proposing to do?
- [08:39]
Tom Cotterell
Yeah. So look, this has been a long running debate. Certainly for the past few weeks there have been defence chiefs across the UK and France and indeed our other allies, mostly in the Jeff community, that have been discussing exactly what this could look like. And specifically what they've come up with is, from the UK's perspective, we're sending HMS Dragon, so she's already deployed from the eastern Mediterranean where she was defending Oreo Fakrotiri Cyprus, our airbase that was struck by drones earlier in the Iran war. So that's heading up there now. We're expecting to send a drone mothership, which is basically RFA line Bay, an upgraded Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship that they're working on currently in Gibraltar. But alongside of that they're going to be sending out a load of new drones that we have as well. So we've got our autonomous mine hunting drone technology that we've been developing. It hasn't been tested yet in a kind of wartime style scenario, but they do work, they are effective and getting out there. And there'll be a new kind of what the Navy terms as these new beehive drones, which is basically a concept for their new 2018 Kraken boats, unmanned Kraken boats that have been developed. Now these things are really good. They can provide additional sensors, they can provide weapons platform. So if they're looking to do like a self defense style exercise, particularly if we're trying to defend our, our destroyer from drone boat attacks, you can fit them with heavy machine guns. You can also fit them with other technology as well, like potentially missiles if they needed to be. It's got a payload bay where you can chop and change. So there's a lot of stuff that's going to be going out there, but it's not going to be there for a while. And again, what's a while? I think that's the question pretty much on everyone's lips. This is all determined down to whether or not a peace deal will be agreed between the us, Israel and Iran. We don't know when that's going to happen. The talks have been well in flux. I think is probably a fair way
- [10:22]
Mariam Mazroui
to describe that, as our listeners know all too well. Yeah, absolutely.
- [10:26]
Tom Cotterell
But look, it's going to take HMS Dragon several weeks to kind of get down there in position. Likewise, RFA Lion Bay will take probably a little bit longer, she's slightly slower. So I wouldn't expect anything to be happening certainly within the next month or so. But again, look, it depends on when we can agree. This is sort of a ceasefire deal, which again is the one that's dragging things out.
- [10:44]
Mariam Mazroui
And I know this is all part of the Royal Navy's shift to becoming a hybrid Navy. Is this an impressive sort of sign that it's steaming ahead to use a ship pan?
- [10:52]
Tom Cotterell
So this beehive concept which is going to be forming part of this kind of deployment out there, that's kind of the early test bed phase of that. So the Navy are looking at multiple things they can do, which includes kind of smaller capable as well as underwater boats that can provide sensors which will, you know, monitor areas of the Atlantic, the Baltic, which again is increasingly under threat from the likes of Russia, they are pushing ahead with this. The First Sea Lord says this is the direction of travel. And look, from a navy's perspective, we know they've, they've shrunk. We now have five frigates that are active, a shrink down from 13, as well as six destroyers, some of which aren't active because they're in various states of maintenance, repair upgrades. So the idea of getting drones alongside to operate with traditional naval warships, it boosts the Royal Navy's muscle, so to speak, at sea. So they are pressing ahead with this. They are looking at this. We've had millions of pounds worth that's already been invested into this. So this is the direction of travel. And the idea is to try and have all these drones pretty much rolled out from the kind of early 2000-30s as a kind of real concept of traditional warships, working with drone wingmen, so to speak, if you want to use the vernacular.
- [11:56]
Mariam Mazroui
So all of that is sort of there, ready to be sent to the Strait of Palmus if we get this peace deal. Donald Trump has threatened to punish NATO allies that haven't helped him during this war. And one of the many threats that we heard was that America could review its position on the UK's sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. You've travelled to the Falklands recently, I think last week, to hear what locals there think about that. Just tell us a bit about your reporting.
- [12:20]
Tom Cotterell
Yeah, so look, I mean, locals were pretty blunt in their assessment. They say, and this is a direct quote from them, we're more British than Britain. They say, look, that we've been on the island for decades. Some of them I spoke to, you know, they're ninth generation Falkland Islanders who have British links. They say, we are absolutely British. They say, we don't want to have any Argentine sovereignty. And look, this comes at a point where 44 years ago, Argentina invaded the islands, right now at the moment, and three Islanders died. As part of that, we lost 255 British personnel retaking the islands. And indeed, Argentina lost around 650 or so personnel. So they're quite clear. We're quite happy to welcome Argentine citizens to the Falklands, but they have to do so once they drop their claim of sovereignty, because, look, we are British territory. That's what they say. We're a British territory, we don't want to be Argentine. They had a vote on it only a few years ago, a referendum vote, saying, look, would you prefer to be British? Do you consider yourself British? And as votes go, this is overwhelming. 99.8% of the population of about 3700 people said, we want to remain British. They feel that Argentina are trying to use this perhaps as saber rattling, perhaps as kind of political capital, but they feel they don't have a voice in that, Deb. They're the ones that are being spoken about very widely.
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Mariam Mazroui
What does the defence community here in Britain make of that threat?
- [13:38]
Tom Cotterell
I mean, look realistically, does Argentina actually pose a threat to the Falkland Islands? Experts have told me probably not. You know, They've got new F16 fighter jets that have been approved that they're purchasing. They are trying to ramp up their military. But look, realistically, the F16 would need a refueling tanker to get them to the Falklands and back if they wanted to strike. They don't have that capability yet, so they can't really be used in that sense. And then navy again, it's slightly larger, but it's nowhere near as big as it needs to be to retake the Falklands. So look, realistically, is it going to happen? Are they going to invade the Falklands? Probably not.
- [14:14]
Mariam Mazroui
But could America withdraw support for Britain's claim of sovereignty? Would that make a difference?
- [14:19]
Tom Cotterell
It would potentially. I mean, it's something that's always debated at the un, so the UN can kind of see what, you know, sovereignty claims are. So America's, I guess removal of that would be a political blow, go to Keir Starmer, but nothing more.
- [14:34]
Mariam Mazroui
So not much. We don't think much is going to come of that.
- [14:37]
Tom Cotterell
No, I don't think so. And look, the Falklanders said, you know, some were, were concerned, they were worried. I spoke to one lady called Trudy McPhee who, who had an incredible story. You know, she was 20, 28 when the islands were invaded and she lives on this tiny little farm just outside of Stanley, the capital, and she helped to guide British troops, you know, whilst being rocketed, whilst being facing artillery strikes and machine guns. She guided them across the island to help liberate it. She said she was worried, but she fears, look, this idea of Argentine sovereignty claim over the Falklands is a non starter. She doesn't believe it will ever happen. And this is someone who was there in 1982, saw the nitty gritty of what happened when they try and impose such a sovereignty claim.
- [15:19]
Mariam Mazroui
The Falklands was a successful war for Britain. Do you think Britain could do it again if our territory was under threat? Is the Royal Navy able to still project that kind of power?
- [15:28]
Tom Cotterell
In short, no. But I don't think we could deliver what we delivered to the Falklands now, there will be a scramble to do things. We've got two big aircraft carriers that are very effective. They obviously come with the F35s, but again, it's the idea of you need to try and get amphibious troops onto the islands. We don't have the amphibious transport capability that we had then. Likewise, we don't have as many ships. I mean, we've got a fraction of the number of ships, frankly. Currently five frigates that are operational because we just lost two recently. And we've got six destroyers. Again, only one of those is out at sea right now, a second one soon to be out. Most are already in long term repairs. So look, could we deliver something on the scale of the Falklands? No. Realistically, we wouldn't be able to mount a similar style, you know, liberation force to retake the islands. But again, defence chiefs I've been speaking to, and those in the community say the realistic prospect of Argentina invading the Falklands is so low. I mean, we do have people out there, you know, we've got people based at Mount Pleasant, about a thousand or so British personnel, which includes members of the army, includes four Typhoons that could provide defensive action and again, a Royal Navy patrol ship that's always stationed somewhere around the Falklands. So there is something out there, more than there was in 1982. But could we mount the same sort of liberation force? No, probably not.
- [16:44]
Mariam Mazroui
Tom Cotterell, our acting defence editor, thanks very much for joining us on around the latest.
- [16:48]
Tom Cotterell
Great, thank you.
- [16:49]
Mariam Mazroui
We're going to take a short pause now. Coming up after the break, we're going to be peering inside Iran as its economy collapses and executions are are on the rise.
- [17:05]
Tom Cotterell
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- [17:34]
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- [18:42]
Mariam Mazroui
welcome back. You're listening to Iran, the latest Iran is executing people at a record rate. We now have data for last year, courtesy of Amnesty International. The human rights group puts out an annual report, and last year's report came out today. Amnesty found that 2,159 people were executed in Iran last year. Now that is much higher than previously thought. We've had reports from other human rights groups, but those figures were lower. Amnesty says that most of the executions were to do with drug and murder offenses, but there was also a rise in the execution of political prisoners. Now, that figure of 2,159 people, that is the highest figure on record since 1981 in Iran. Absolutely huge. Just a side note about this data. So that's obviously for 2025. Amnesty found at least 2,700 people were executed globally. You might be interested to hear the other countries where there's been a rise in executions Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Yemen, Singapore, and the United States. But crucially, Amnesty says that it believes the most executions take place in China, and it's thought that for a long time. It's just that China doesn't report any of that kind of stuff. Just a side note on that Amnesty data. So as I said, those figures are from 2025, that Iran executions are continuing apace this year, specifically to silence political dissent since the January protests. So since the war began on 28 February, the UN says it's verified the execution of at least at least 32 political prisoners. That's obviously a lot. And this political repression is coming amid growing economic collapse in Iran. So Iranian officials estimate that around 2 million people have lost their jobs, either directly or indirectly, due to the conflict and the associated Internet blackout, which is now the longest ever in Iran's History, that's according to the New York Times. We've also heard from some economists who suggest that the ripple effects of this war could put a further 10 million jobs at risk. That would be about half of Iran's, Iran's labor force. So the picture in Iran is pretty dire. My colleague Roland Oliphant has been speaking to Mariam Mazroui about all of this. Mariam is an Iranian journalist and war photographer who was forced to flee the country after being arrested and imprisoned during the Women Life freedom protests in 2022. She's remained in touch with Iranians inside the country. We spoke to her earlier this year and Roland caught up with her again last Friday. Here's their conversation.
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Roland Oliphant
Given everything that's happened over the past two months, how are you feeling? How are your family feeling? What's the current kind of sense of, of being amongst you and your friends?
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Venetia Rainey
Yeah, last time that we talked we were figuring out if Iranian inside are willing to be under attack to get off the regime or not. And now it's like my feeling is like, like everybody else inside and outside that we are living kinda in a limbo, you know, in uncertainty situation. I know people outside, they are still hopeful that something changes and you know, the, they still go to rally and they like asking other countries to continue, you know, but inside people are like in some kind of hopelessness, helplessness, this like profound uncertainty. And everything has been shut down there, you know, especially when they don't have access to Internet. And outside the country it's. Everything is dark and they are in darkness.
- [22:33]
Roland Oliphant
There have been a number of executions. We've seen, I think two executions of people, young men accused of being spies. But there have also been a series of executions of people who were involved in the, in the protests. What can you tell us about all this in general?
- [22:49]
Venetia Rainey
It has been more than like 180 people execution now in 2026. And every day we wake up on a news of like hanging someone. And they are like the protesters, you know, they have no shame or no dissenting. They have nothing, you know, it's because they have nothing to lose. They are taking everything that we have. Like they executed that aerospace student. He was a genius, Irfan.
- [23:23]
Roland Oliphant
He was accused of, of spying for the Israelis or Americans, I believe.
- [23:26]
Venetia Rainey
Yeah. And I know these people. When you, when you refuse to collaborate with them, you are a spy. I had this experience, you know, you, I think because he was a genius. We have geniuses in the prison who didn't want to collaborate with this regime. You Know, and they suddenly become spy eyes for Mossad. It's devastating when you wake up and see that they killed them and or like yesterday they killed, executed a dad, a father, a son. Sorry, I have. I become like very emotional about the execution. Yeah, I've been in this prisons. They, they executed Ihsan and then his dad heard the news, he had heart attack and he died too, two days ago. And it's a psychological torture on all the society. You know, they are bearing this. They arrested a dad and his daughter. They sentenced his daughter to 25 years in prison two days ago. And they just went to his cell and told him, we executed your father this morning.
- [24:43]
Roland Oliphant
They told her that, yes, it's brutal.
- [24:47]
Venetia Rainey
They are just protester. They wanted their freedom. And you know, it's.
- [24:51]
Roland Oliphant
How is this made public? Are they reporting this publicly in the, in the Iranian state media? Is this about how we know about it?
- [24:59]
Venetia Rainey
Yes, they trying to scare people. You know, they scared of people. They, they are preventing another big demonstration. Something.
- [25:09]
Roland Oliphant
What you're saying is just so I understand, all these executions, they are being deliberately be publicized in the media in Iran in order to terrify people.
- [25:19]
Venetia Rainey
Yes. You know, and there are many of young people in the prison now, you know, they are threatening them that if you want to again, if you want to rise, not only we kill you, we hang your beloved one in the prison. You know, we kill them too.
- [25:39]
Roland Oliphant
How often are you able to speak to people inside Iran? Because the. The Internet shut down. I believe Netblocks is now saying it's the longest ever that it's recorded. Are you still able to stay in touch with people on the ground in Iran? When did you last speak to people and what have they said to you?
- [26:00]
Venetia Rainey
Actually, with my family, we are not in touch at all. Like it was my birthday and we couldn't communicate or talk even then. But my friends, you know, and my ex colleagues, they have kind of access to Internet, not as usual. It's very hard, it's very short. The voices that we actually hear now from Iran are filtered. You know, they are like specific groups. Some have these white SIM cards the government handed or granted them these SIM cards which they have named it White SIM cards. They are like fully monitored and they use them strictly for propaganda. You cannot see anyone, even people who, you know, they are like against the regime. But they don't use this SIM card to tell that they are using that just to spread the regime's propaganda. Others like, they buy it incredibly like viciously expensive Internet just to get online for A few filleting minutes in a very short window. Some people have this access.
- [27:26]
Roland Oliphant
This is, this is like a black market Internet, is it?
- [27:28]
Venetia Rainey
It, it's not black market actually. One of the companies, it's Hamra, one of the companies that it's directly linked to, the irgc, you know, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard, they own this company and they are selling this Internet and make money and commercialize that.
- [27:51]
Roland Oliphant
But people have to pay through the nose to, to access it.
- [27:55]
Venetia Rainey
Yeah, it's weirdly expensive. But some of them, they say we don't buy food, but we buy this Internet. Because one of them told me, because we are seeing that you are being under attack and being under influence of this narrative that the Islamic Republic is spreading. And we, we, we use the money that we have to buy food to, to encourage you that you don't think that we are giving up.
- [28:30]
Roland Oliphant
Okay, who are you speaking? I suppose you don't really want to give names, but can you tell us who, who were these people you were speaking to and when did you speak to them? Roughly?
- [28:38]
Venetia Rainey
I spoke with them kinda, I can say not daily, but every other days. And they are my. There are people that I know they are not families. I just can say that they are not families.
- [28:54]
Roland Oliphant
Sure. And when they say not giving up and they say we're trying to counter a narrative, what do they mean?
- [29:01]
Venetia Rainey
You know, we have this narrative that is from people inside with white SIM cards.
- [29:12]
Roland Oliphant
These are the people who've been allowed to buy these or been issued with these SIM cards that the government allows.
- [29:17]
Venetia Rainey
Yeah, they are telling that Iranian are behind the regime, they are supporting the regime. This is completely false. The other thing is they are controlling this. You know, it was a mass massacre there, mass killing there. And we didn't mourn properly. We just were gathering and knowing about the name, names about the like scale of the, that killing.
- [29:47]
Roland Oliphant
You're talking about the, the killings in January after the protests.
- [29:51]
Venetia Rainey
Yeah, that we believe it's like really 4,000 people and more because me, I know five people like firsthand, one of them my cousin, they are preventing to have more information about that, that massacre too. And you know, even in the, in non Persian timeline, when you go there, in Twitter or everywhere, Instagram or when we talk about these people who are being killed in the protest, we get too many messages that it was Musa doing, it was like foreigners doing. They are erasing this, that they killed our people, they killed Iranians.
- [30:41]
Roland Oliphant
Dominating the Internet narrative. The people you've managed to talk to inside Iran, these people you're in touch with. What have they told you about, I suppose about living conditions, about prices, about security. What have you been able to glean about everyday life inside the country since the war began and since it paused
- [31:06]
Venetia Rainey
before it was this. They were on the verge of economic collapse. The regime that this revolution happens, part of that was because of the situation. Now it's crisis. You know, when they talk about the prices, we cannot believe the numbers. You know, it's like 300% increase in foods, in everything. And it is because of the war too, because, you know, when they bombed these petrochemical sites, it has affected everything, every price. And the jobs there are like this huge layoff because these factories and these sites, they don't work anymore. It has been a huge layoff because of that. Some of these people that I am talking to, they know people like their dads, their siblings, they have no job to do anymore. Okay, and the other part is the cutting the net. You know, the country, the society was like Internet based for everything, for the job, for the living. The was this big online jobs there, they all have been cut off that and there are these. I think it's from what I'm seeing and I'm hearing they are pushing this middle class to the poverty, you know, altogether. It's a disaster there. Financially and economically, it is a disaster.
- [32:47]
Roland Oliphant
At the beginning of the war, there was a lot of talk about. It was pretty clear that the Israelis and the Americans thought that they could bring down the regime. But it hasn't happened. Even though they killed Khamenei and there were the Israeli strikes on the Basiji militias. Why do you think that hasn't happened?
- [33:05]
Venetia Rainey
First, as always, I have to say I don't promote war. I will never do that. But I always try to echo the voice of people who are talking to me from inside. So this is my point of view about war. I cannot be pro war when I'm in a safest place ever, you know. But yeah, when we were talking, people asked me to, even my friends to do something because they couldn't like bring down this regime by themselves. Then this war happens. And people, they thought it's because the Venezuela scenario happened right before this war. They thought maybe this will like, it'd be like Venezuela. Yes. And everything. But I was one of them that I knew it is so complicated. And the fact that we are not facing government, we are facing a cartel. And this is the network full of insider networks. And you know, they support each other. I don't know if the Mushawah Khamenei is alive or not. But somehow they are like managing to show that he is in the power because these networks they all now glue together to, it's like they have this treasure box of Iran lucrative treasure they don't want to get, you know, let it go easily. So they do whatever they can to
- [34:45]
Roland Oliphant
like to cling on.
- [34:46]
Venetia Rainey
Yes. And because, you know, this is this ideology that never fails. It's. I don't know how, how you can defeat something that never accept or believe in. If they are being dead, they are winning. If they are being destroyed, they are winning. And this is the pure humiliation for people inside. You know, when I talk to them, they are really desperate about this, hearing them right behind their ears, celebrating and
- [35:22]
Roland Oliphant
like pushing the war, hardliners trying to push the war and celebrate the war. I'm interested in what you make of how the war has affected Iran on the inside. And I appreciate you. You've been in exile for a few years now, so you're not there, but you did live there for a long time. And of course there was this long debate about who would come after Ali Khamenei because he was getting old and who would be the successor and what would happen. And Mojtaba's name was always mentioned, but it was never guaranteed it would be him. Do you think he could have become Supreme Leader without this war?
- [36:03]
Venetia Rainey
First of all, I'm not sure he's alive or not. It seems from where I was watching, I saw that Pizzaski and the President told that he met him, but it was kinda, it felt like he is trying to, you know, tell the IRGC people that if you are in touch with him, I am in touch with him too. And it doesn't seem that they are really meeting him. I don't know. It's my point of view.
- [36:36]
Roland Oliphant
And we haven't seen a picture of him. We should make that clear. Nobody has seen him. We haven't seen a picture of him. We haven't heard his voice. So we just don't know.
- [36:44]
Venetia Rainey
Another thing that you ask me, you know, in 2009, movement, grave movement, the most important things that people shot on the street, they were saying that death to Mujtabat to not be the supreme leader. This, this is the exact meaning of that. They were saying that people, you know, the, this collective mind of the people they, they predicted back then and they were fighting against this idea for him to be a leader, you know, and
- [37:28]
Roland Oliphant
this is 17 years ago, but here we are today.
- [37:32]
Venetia Rainey
Yes, yes. But I think based on everything Even that rig in the election that they brought Ahmadinejad in the power. It was all his doing because he wanted to be a leader, you know, the leader.
- [37:54]
Roland Oliphant
Do you think the attack on Iran has backfired and actually strengthened the regime and strengthened those hardline kind of IRGC factions around Mojtaba instead of weakening them?
- [38:10]
Venetia Rainey
No, no. I'm hearing this too. But how can it be the point when they killed that many people on the street without war? They kept people in the home with this massacre. And before that, everybody who can be his revolt as a supreme leader, they have been killed.
- [38:35]
Roland Oliphant
I was wondering. You've talked, you know, you've painted a fairly bleak picture about the situation inside Iran. I was wondering if I could ask you about the diaspora, since you are now a member of the diaspora, and how the war has affected opinion there. And I know that there's huge numbers of Iranians living abroad and they have very different opinions about everything, I suppose. I wanted to ask you about the role of Reza Pahlavi because he resurfaced again, criticizing Trump and saying Trump has to finish the job and double down. And there was a moment, especially during the protests and then in the early days of the war, when he was kind of being seen as a national leader in waiting, somebody who might be able to unite the country and perhaps lead to the overthrow of the regime. Regime. Do you think he's failed to raise the moment? Has that moment of kind of unity around him dissipated? Or do you think that is still there?
- [39:29]
Venetia Rainey
I ask from people outside. People are still hoping that he will manage and do you know, the leading. And they are still hopeful of change and for him to be the transitions leader. People who are going to rallies every week. You know, I talk to people inside one of them, like he has this company and this huge kind of factory. I asked him if people are like regret asking other countries or Mr. Pahlavi for like this situation or. Or are they blaming him? He told me no. It's like now for us is the matter of survival. You know, we thought we will reach this point. And if we reach this point, he is our hope. But we haven't reached this point, you know, because regime is still here and we are in more desperate situation because of the economic situation, you know, and there is this huge despair there and many suicides. The situation is really bad inside. Even some of them just get online through heavy, like expensive Internet and they write on the timeline that we are like, I'm done. And they just kill themselves because it's too Much pain to bear for a society. That revolution, that massacre, then being under this heavy, heavy bombard. They tell me that one of them managed to come out of the country. And we were talking to each other yesterday. She was telling me when I walk on the street, this is the safe city outside Iran, but which the smallest noise, I just panic. And I thought there is another boom. The thing that they endured in hope that it will be finished, their pain and their suffering and you know, something will change. They are traumatized now, but I think they are more radical now actually. But as my friend told me, it's not a time now, it's not the time.
- [41:56]
Roland Oliphant
People are too preoccupied with just surviving if they can.
- [42:00]
Venetia Rainey
I talked to another one and he told me that now, like many, many people, they think they are against regime and now they are against the war. From that moment that they started to threaten the civilization and like the power plant, because without power nothing is left, you know, for them from that moment they are like they are worried and they are, they fear this happens. And I fear of that too because I saw the result in Iraq when I was there as a war photographer. I saw what happened when the power went out and the hospitals and everything.
- [42:48]
Roland Oliphant
I suppose my last question, Miriam, has to be kind of. I don't know, it's difficult to ask you to look into the future, but where do you think this goes from now? What does the future hold for Iranians in the, in the coming weeks and months?
- [43:08]
Venetia Rainey
You know, when we talked, we were talking about if Iran can become like Syria and we were sure that it won't be like this. My fear now is that Iran become like Iraq. Like it was a long time. How many years they suffered through this economic embargo and many children, many people died in those situations, you know.
- [43:36]
Roland Oliphant
You mean this is Iraq under Saddam in the 90s, under sanctions after the first Gulf War?
- [43:43]
Venetia Rainey
Yes, yes. You know, because I think time is in favor of the regime. They can cope, adopt and they can adopt their suppressions method better. And like even the tortures and raping and everything, nothing was like before. They were cruel, but this time they have been bloodthirsty. I can't blame war to escalate that too. But I think they just has been shown their real face from the January with war or without that, you know.
- [44:27]
Roland Oliphant
Yeah. Mariam, thank you so much for talking. I'm really grateful for you sharing everything. It's just so important to have an ordinary Iranian voice and it's difficult to get these days.
- [44:39]
Venetia Rainey
Yeah. And it's really, it is really risky for them to like contact some people like us that we are outside. But they want to be heard. You know, they have to be heard.
- [44:54]
Mariam Mazroui
That was Roland Oliphant speaking to Iranian journalist Mariam Mazroui. For more on the subject, do check out my colleague David Blair's latest analysis. He looks at how a substantially degraded military, a collapsing economy and a diplomatic impasse means Iran is much more vulnerable than it thinks it is. I'll put a link to that in the Show Notes. Well worth a read, as usual with David Blair. That's it for today's episode. We'll be back again tomorrow. Until then, goodbye. Around the Latest is an original podcast from the Telegraph, created by David Knowles and hosted by me, Venetia Rainey and Roland Oliphant. If you appreciated this podcast, please consider following around the latest on your preferred podcast app. And if you have a moment, leave a review as it helps others find the show. For more from our foreign correspondence on the ground, sign up for our new daily newsletter, Cables, or listen to our sister podcast Ukraine. The Latest we're still on the same email address, battleionselegraph.co.uk where you can contact us on X. You can find our handles in the Show Notes. The producer is Peter Shevlin. The executive producers are Venetia Rainey and Louisa Wells.
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Tom Cotterell
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