‘Huge void’ in Iran regime after security chief 'assassinated'

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Iran: The Latest
Episode: ‘Huge void’ in Iran regime after security chief 'assassinated'
Date: March 17, 2026
Host: Roland Oliphant (The Telegraph)
Guests: Akhtar McCoy (Telegraph Foreign Correspondent), Ali Safavi (National Council of Resistance of Iran, MEK)

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Main Theme and Purpose

This episode provides a deep-dive into reports of the assassination of Ali Larijani, head of the Iranian National Security Council, in the context of the ongoing US-Israeli war on Iran. Amid unconfirmed reports and a blackout of official Iranian statements, host Roland Oliphant explores the significance of this event with expert newsroom analysis and an in-depth interview with Ali Safavi of the National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI), focusing on potential regime change, the balance of power within Iran, and the role of Iranian opposition movements.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Status and Significance of Ali Larijani’s Reported Death

• Unconfirmed Reports: Israel claims responsibility for killing Ali Larijani and Gholamreza Soleimani in a strike on Tehran; Iranian state media is silent ([02:32]).
• Significance:
  • Larijani described as the “number two in the regime” and crucial in holding the Islamic Republic together post-Khamenei’s death.
  • His role as Supreme National Security Council Secretary, appointed directly by the Supreme Leader, is critical for wartime decisions ([03:14]).
  • His ability to bridge hardliners and moderates made him central to regime stability ([04:42]).

Quote:
“If it's true, and if he's dead, that's a very big and significant blow to the Islamic Republic.”
— Akhtar McCoy ([02:32])

2. Current Situation Inside Iran

• Atmosphere: Nightfall in Tehran, Chaharshanbe Suri festival; regime threatens anyone celebrating with fireworks, framing them as enemies ([05:27]).
• Conflict & Censorship: Ongoing missile launches, tighter internet blockades, and limitations on even state television ([06:11]).

3. Assessment of Regime Change Prospects

• Who Replaces the Regime?
  • Civil and political opposition groups discussed, especially the controversial MEK (Mujahedin-e Khalq) and exiled Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi ([08:31]).
• Divided Opposition:
  • MEK frequently labeled a “terrorist cult” by both regime supporters and many anti-regime Iranians due to its history, particularly its alignment with Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War ([08:31]).

4. Exclusive Interview with Ali Safavi (NCRI/MEK)

a. Larijani’s Death and Regime Stability

• Believes Larijani’s absence creates a “huge void” in leadership, compounding the crisis post-Khamenei’s death ([10:29], [11:22]).
• Asserts that neither Khamenei’s son nor other regime elements carry equivalent authority.

b. The Path to Regime Change

• Direct opposition to negotiations with current regime, labeling engagement as a “fool’s errand” based on 47 years of failed attempts ([13:54]).
• Advocates for “bottom-up, homegrown, indigenous” regime change by Iranian people and organized opposition ([16:36]).

Quote:
“This idea that somehow you can cajole through dialogue this regime to behave is fool's errand.”
— Ali Safavi ([13:54])

c. MEK’s Role and Capabilities Inside Iran

• Claims a substantial network ("organized, armed MEK network") operating within Iran, citing 2,000 resistance units “disappeared” during January 2026 uprising ([18:26]).
• Positions MEK as disciplined, experienced, and led by women—rejects cult allegations ([19:39]).

Quote:
“With a movement that is led by women from top to bottom, that's an anathema to being a cult.”
— Ali Safavi ([19:39])

d. Controversy over MEK’s Legacy and Popularity

• Addresses accusations of treason for siding with Saddam:
  • Condemns “distorted narrative”; claims MEK only intervened well after Iraq’s invasion, targeting Revolutionary Guards, and sought peace ([22:13], [25:36]).
  • Blames regime propaganda for negative perceptions among Iranians ([25:36]).
• Funding: Asserts the MEK is funded by “the people of Iran” and diaspora, not foreign governments ([27:14]).

e. Collaboration with Foreign Intelligence

• Firmly denies MEK collaboration with Israel, Mossad, or the US in assassinations or current military operations ([27:56], [28:17]).
• Stresses 60-year record of independence ([28:20]).

f. Vision for a Post-Regime Iran

• Outlines plan for a transitional provisional government lasting six months, followed by free elections ([29:26]).
• Denies seeking power for its own sake; emphasizes democracy, pluralism, and legitimacy through elections ([31:01]).

g. Comparison with Reza Pahlavi and the Pahlavi Monarchy

• Dismisses Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi as representing “authoritarianism and dictatorship,” claims he lacks legitimacy ([34:53]).
• Points to opposition’s fragmentation as a reflection of pluralism, not weakness ([36:55], [37:38]).
• Defends MEK’s sacrifices as evidence of commitment, challenges Pahlavi supporters on their lack of active fighters in Iran ([37:38]).

Quote:
“Where are Reza Pahlavi's fighters in Iran? Have you seen any? I haven't seen any.”
— Ali Safavi ([37:38])

h. Necessity and Nature of Uprising

• Calls for readiness to “sacrifice more” for freedom ([40:39]).
• Accepts the inevitability of violent uprising if peaceful revolution is made impossible ([41:07]), but denies aiming for civil war ([41:26]).
• Rejects war as a solution; prefers political support for the opposition rather than military intervention ([42:14]).

Quote:
“War has never been... [the solution] in Iraq, it wasn't in Libya, and it's not going to be in Iran either.”
— Ali Safavi ([42:14])

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “He was close to both hardliners and reformists and moderates. So it would be hard to say… who betrayed him.” — Akhtar McCoy ([04:42])
• “Any hope or expectation that you can engage in some meaningful dialogue with this regime is an illusion.” — Ali Safavi ([13:54])
• “There have been four major uprisings in Iran… not spontaneous as much as the West chooses to not report it.” — Ali Safavi ([16:36])
• “The MEK never, ever had any role whatsoever in the killing of the Iranian scientist.” — Ali Safavi ([27:56])
• “Nobody will give you freedom in a silver platter. No one. No one.” — Ali Safavi ([40:43])
• “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.” — Ali Safavi, quoting JFK ([41:07])

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Important Timestamps

• [02:01] – Host introduces breaking news on Larijani’s reported death
• [02:32–06:33] – Akhtar McCoy’s analysis of the regime and situation inside Iran
• [08:31] – Start of analysis on Iran’s opposition movements and introduction to Ali Safavi
• [10:29]–[43:11] – In-depth interview with Ali Safavi, covering:
  • Larijani’s significance ([10:29–12:48])
  • Regime change prospects & MEK’s position ([13:54–18:26])
  • Legitimacy, allegations, and controversies ([18:42–28:20])
  • Vision for post-regime Iran ([29:26–33:50])
  • Division versus unity in the opposition ([36:55–38:50])
  • The inevitability of struggle and sacrifice ([39:49–42:09])
  • Stance on ongoing war ([42:09–43:11])

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Tone and Style

• The discussion remains urgent, analytical, and sometimes combative—especially when the MEK’s controversial history and relationship with other opposition factions are addressed.
• Safavi is unwavering in his assertions, insists on the MEK's legitimacy, and underscores the need for sacrifice in the struggle for Iran's future.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rigorous look at leadership crises in the Iranian regime following the possible death of a powerful insider, and drills deep into the battle for legitimacy between opposition groups—particularly between the MEK and the Pahlavi monarchy. It also grapples openly with the realities and narratives surrounding the MEK’s legacy, the likely scenarios for regime change (whether peaceful or violent), and the formidable challenges faced by all sides. Ultimately, the episode underscores how divided and complex the fight for Iran’s future has become amidst war, repression, and the hope for freedom.

Transcript

[Ali Safavi]

The telegraph.

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[Ali Safavi]

Khamenei felt that Larry Johnny is a man who could basically bring the warring factions together and handle the situation. Or of course now with his absence, I think that creates a huge void in the regime's leadership. A short time ago, the United States military began major combat operations. If you kill Americans, if you threaten Americans anywhere on earth, we will hunt you down without apology and without hesitation and we will kill you.

[Roland Oliphant]

We were not involved in the initial strikes on Iran and we will not join offensive action now.

[Monday.com Ad Voice]

Today President Trump says Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei was killed in the attacks.

[Roland Oliphant]

Helland Oliphant and this is Iran the latest. It is Tuesday 17th March, Day 18 of the US Israeli War on Iran. The most significant news this morning is the Israeli claim, we have not yet confirmed it, that Ari Larajani, the head of the Iranian National Security Council has been killed. For more on this, I have literally rushed over the newsroom to grab Aktar McCoy Akhtar. What do we know about Larajani? Is he alive? Is he dead?

[Akhtar McCoy]

We don't know. Israelis are claiming that they have killed him and he was killed with Gholam Reza Soleimani, the commander of Basij parliamentary force last night in a strike on Tehran. State media is silent. His accounts on Twitter are posting things but officially the state television hasn't reported anything on it. We have seen a few tweets from Fars news agency Tasnim News Agency who are that are re quoting reposting things that were posted on Ali Larijani's Twitter account. If it's true. And if he's dead, that's a very big and significant blow to the Islamic Republic.

[Roland Oliphant]

Okay. Who is Ari Larajani and why would it be such a blow to them to lose him?

[Akhtar McCoy]

Ali Larajani is the secretary of Supreme National Security Council and is appointed directly by the Supreme Leader. Previous supreme leader and the job itself, Secretary of Supreme National Security considers very important in the Islamic Republic system structure because it makes the decision in wartime and peacetime. And Ali Al Arjani himself is the man who has been keeping the Islamic Republic together since Ali Khamenei's death and even months before he was killed on February 28. Al Arjani has spent last 30 years inside more than 30 years, three decades. And inside the Islamic Republic, he was the chief of the Islamic Republic Broadcasting Service first. Then for 12 years, he was parliament speaker. Before becoming the parliament speaker, he was also Supreme National Security Council's secretary and was appointed again last year by Khamenei. By Ali Khamenei to the job.

[Roland Oliphant]

I've got one question. I mean, he's obviously, he's a deep regime insider. We have thought that he is the person running the country basically kind of above Pezestkian, above the president running the country since the Supreme Leader disappeared. And as you say, if he's gone, that's a big blow. I suppose one of the questions is, if the Israelis found him, who betrayed him? And I'm not saying he was betrayed. I'm not saying it wasn't signals intelligence or something, but, you know, is it possible that somebody would have wanted someone else in the regime would have wanted to get rid of him?

[Akhtar McCoy]

He was close to both hardliners and reformists and moderates. So it would be hard to say, like, if anyone inside the regime, as you said, betrayed him, because he could be a very hardliner or very moderate, and he wouldn't side with either of them at the same time, too.

[Roland Oliphant]

So he's a bit of a chameleon.

[Akhtar McCoy]

Yeah, like something in between. And if the moment takes it, he would be hardline. If the moment doesn't take, he would be just moderate. Like, depends what time we are living in. And we have seen him doing that for the past 30 years. He ran for president twice. They disqualified him. No explanation. And I think they were keeping him for today. And he apparently, allegedly, he's dead now.

[Roland Oliphant]

What else, as far as we can make out, is happening inside Iran today?

[Akhtar McCoy]

At the moment, it's going to be nightfall in Tehran and it's the last Tuesday of Persian year, which is significant. Tomorrow would be Chashamb Esuri. It's a festival of fire tonight. And the Islamic Republic officials are calling on people. If anyone does any sort of fireworks that would be considered as an enemy.

[Roland Oliphant]

Okay. So normally you'd have a lot of fireworks.

[Akhtar McCoy]

A lot. Because for the past several thousands of years and they are calling on people to go out on the streets, fill the gap and do not let anyone to misuse the situation as they are calling it. And bombs are still falling across the country. The state media is not reporting much on it. They have just launched missiles according to the irgcs statements to our several countries across the Belgian Gulf.

[Roland Oliphant]

I also saw we've had reports over the past 24 hours that the Internet blockade has become even tighter and more difficult. Are you finding it more difficult to get in touch with sources on the ground?

[Akhtar McCoy]

Yeah, sources on the ground and also like having access to a state television.

[Roland Oliphant]

Even state television is difficult to access now.

[Akhtar McCoy]

Yeah, yeah. Literally every website that has an IR is inaccessible.

[Roland Oliphant]

Telegraph foreign correspondent Akhtar McCoy Talking to me there. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, I'll be speaking to Ali Safavi, a member of the Iranian Parliament in exile and a member of the National Council of Resistance of Iran and the mek.

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[Roland Oliphant]

Welcome back. You're listening to Iran, the latest from the Telegraph. I'm Roland Oliphant. One of the aims of this war, we are told, is regime change in Iran. Both the Israelis and the Americans. Americans have said in their own way that they hope or expect the Iranian public to rise up and overthrow the regime. But who should replace it? There are various Iranian opposition groups. Perhaps the most prominent leader abroad is Reza Paqlavi, the exiled crown prince who has positioned himself as a national leader in waiting. But there is one other group laying claim to the title of organized Iranian opposition, the Mujahideen Al Khaq, and is nothing if not controversial. Many Iranians view them as nothing more than a terrorist cult. They sided with Saddam Hussein and his war against Iran in the 1980s for that reason. Viewed by many, both pro and anti regime Iranians as nothing more than traitors, they were for some time listed by the United States as a terrorist group. Nonetheless, they still exist. They maintain considerable links to Western governments and there are credible reports that their underground armed network within Iran has worked closely with Israeli intelligence on the assassination of prominent Iranian scientists and military leaders. Whatever you think of them, they are players of some sort in this incredibly complex picture surrounding events in Iran today. So I sat down with Ali Safavi of the National Council of Resistance of Iran. Ali Safavi, welcome to Iran. The latest it is now, I think, the 18th day of the war. The news this morning, which seems quite significant, is that an Israeli airstrike, I think an Israeli airstrike, maybe an American airstrike, may have killed Ari Larijani. I'm wondering how significant you think that would be if it turns out to be true.

[Ali Safavi]

Yes, I heard the news, as you have from the media. I think it's a very significant development, not least because Larry Johnny was handpicked by Khamenei when, of course, there was every anticipation that a war would start to basically manage the affairs of the country because as you know, he was in an underground bunker and could not deal with the day to day affairs of the country. And of course, Larry Gianni was basically the number two in the regime. He has a very, very long career. And then things developed. He basically went into the sidelines when he ran for presidential election. When Raisi became a candidate, the guardian council, the 12 member body that vets candidates, disqualified him.

[Roland Oliphant]

This is in 2021, I think, Raisi's election.

[Ali Safavi]

Yeah, yes, yes. Strangely enough, he was disqualified. And they said maybe because I think his. His relatives are either in London or in America, which was ridiculous. You know, for a man who's been under stalwarts and with the regime from day one, of course, that was because Khamenei wanted to have Raisi to consolidate his grip on power. And of course, once Raisi was killed, Larry Johnny again ran to become president, and again he was rejected by the Guardian Council. And so Peseshkian became president. But I think given the circumstances and the difficulties that the regime had, in view of the. Particularly the January 2026 uprising, Khamenei felt that Larry Johnny is a man who could basically bring the warring factions together and handle situation. Or of course, now with his absence, I think that creates a huge void in the regime's leadership hierarchy. It had already been weakened with the elimination of Khamenei because in no way Mujitaba Khamenei carries the same weight, the same aura, if you will, as his father did. And so. And of course, he's also absent from the sin for some time now. So I think the regime is really in dire straits right now.

[Roland Oliphant]

Okay. I suppose one of the things that struck us about Larajani's possible killing, we haven't had confirmation of that. We've had word out of Tehran that people around him or the government are saying it's not true. We've had word out of Israel that Israel is saying he's dead. So as we speak, just for the benefit of listeners, we don't yet know if he's dead or not. But it strikes me that, as you say, he was really crucial, as we understand, to running the country. There have been reports that he was basically running the country since Hamane was killed, but also that he's someone who kind of knew how to speak to the west in a way and understood the kind of the diplomatic dance. And I suppose that if the Americans were hoping to. To find somebody within the regime to talk to, if they were looking for a. I suppose we always talk about the Venezuela option, the Delsier Rodriguez option, he might have been it. And I suppose we've also. We've heard chants from certain hardliners in Iran, calling him and people like him compromises, you know, not. Not sufficiently hardline. Do you think this potentially would actually be a problem for the United States if they're looking for to eventually do a deal with what's left of the regime?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, I guess I have two observations. One, I saw, I guess, a poster where the United States had actually set a $10 million bounty on several regime officials who had survived during the course of the recent conflict. And the number one on that list was Larijani. So I don't know whether the United States was thinking of opening some channels of communication with him. Naturally, I'm not in the White House, and only the folks there would know. But I think more generally, I would say that any, I believe, hope or expectation that you can engage in some meaningful dialogue with this regime is an illusion. And recall that over the past 47 years, there has been no shortage of dialogue with this regime. You had Mohammad Khatami back in the 1990s, who was dubbed by west as Iran's Gorbachev. And what happened? Nothing. We had the worst case of chain murders of Iranian intellectuals and dissidents inside the country. Then Rouhani came and everybody said, well, he's a moderate. What happened? Well, you had Iran advancing its nuclear weapons program to a point where it was a few months or a year or so away from a nuclear bomb. So this idea that somehow you can cajole through dialogue this regime to behave is fool's errand. And recall that in 22 years ago at the European Parliament, our President elect, Mrs. Rajavi, said that the solution to the Iranian crisis isn't engagement or appeasement and isn't war either. And you have to look to regime change, but internally by the Iranian people and by the organized opposition. So I really do not believe that discussion with anybody within this regime will bring the results that the west desires.

[Roland Oliphant]

It's just not going to go anywhere on that point. You talked about a regime change from within by the Iranian people. So the message we get from Benjamin Netanyahu has been explicit. So is Donald Trump. Actually, their idea seems to be that they're creating the space for the Iranian public to rise up against the regime and for there to be a revolution inside Iran, perhaps akin to 1979 or something like that. We're 18 days into the war now, and we haven't really seen any sign of that happening. Is that a realistic thing to expect?

[Ali Safavi]

I believe that the regime change within Iran must come from bottom up, homegrown Indigenous Recall that since at least 2017 there have been four major uprisings in Iran. You had it in 2017, you had it in 2019, in 2022, and of course the January uprising, which resulted in the death of thousands of people, if not tens of thousands. Now these uprisings have not been spontaneous as much as the west, and particularly the legacy media has chosen not to report it. There is an undercurrent, if you will, an organized resistance within Iran.

[Roland Oliphant]

Just to be clear, you say National Liberation army of Iran. Are you talking about MEK units inside Iran? Is that what you're talking about?

[Ali Safavi]

Yes, of course. You know the mek. The MEK had an standing mechanized division, a strong army just across the border in the run up to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. And unfortunately, the west, in pursuit of appeasing the malice, sought its disarmament. And of course the MEK's National Liberation army had handed over to CENTCOM voluntarily, of course, 2,100 pieces of equipment, tanks, artillery pieces, APCs and so forth. But it seems to me that over the years the MEK has basically within Iran itself, under the skin of society, if you will, has developed that organized force, structured force that is needed to confront the irg.

[Roland Oliphant]

You're claiming that there is an organized armed MEK network inside Iran which is mounting attacks as we speak?

[Ali Safavi]

Yes, I make that statement. In fact, in the course of the January uprising, the Mek announced that 2,000 of its resistance units disappeared. Not knowing whether they've been killed or detained or what.

[Roland Oliphant]

I think we need to ask. I mean, the MEK does have a legitimacy problem in Iran, right? And you'll be aware of the allegations that are made against it, that it's a terrorist organization, that it's a cult like organization. And perhaps most seriously of all, in the eyes of an awful lot of ordinary Iranians, and I'm speaking of very anti regime Iranians, people who've lost people like you, lost people to the regime who remember that the MEK sided with Saddam Hussein during the war in 1988 and therefore, and took part in the invasion of Iran and killed Iranians. And therefore that organization is dangerous and treasonous and beyond the pale. I mean, how do you respond to that? And do you really think the MEK can have any say or have any traction in modern Iranian society given so many Iranians think that about your organization?

[Ali Safavi]

I think it's an excellent question and I'm really glad that you bring it up because I think quite frankly, there has never been a serious and honest attempt made to engage in serious debate about these issues. And I have several things to say. First of all, the MEK is not your Sunday debate club. It's a disciplined, well organized, battle tested, combat ready force that has been fighting against two tyrannies in Iran for six years. First, the Shahs and second, the Mullah's regime. And I think quite frankly that with a movement that is led by women from top to bottom, that's an anathema to being a cult. Where have you seen an organization with women? Not only in the leadership, but that's

[Roland Oliphant]

not the definition of a cult. The definition of a cult would be the requirement for total loyalty. And there are people who've left the mek, especially from the base you have in Albania, who said, look, we're not allowed to question authority, we've been subject to massive control. And that essentially it's Mariam Rajavi's kind of little mini dictatorship and that all this stuff you say about being pro democracy and so on is purely covered. What do you say to that?

[Ali Safavi]

First of all, some of those who made such claims later on wrote to UN Secretary General and other agencies saying that what we said was dictated to us by the Iranian Ministry of Intelligence and Security and we were paid for it. But let me just say one more thing about the Iran Iraq war that you mentioned.

[Roland Oliphant]

Yes. So this is important because ordinary Iranians bring this up a lot.

[Ali Safavi]

Several things to be said about this. 1. When Iraq invaded Iran, the MEK condemned it. It issued a statement in November of 1980 condemning the invasion of Iraq. The MEK forces went to the war front in Khorramshahr, particularly that had been occupied by the Iraqi forces and they fought against Iraqi forces. We lost people there. Thousands of MEK people were arrested, captured by the Iraqi army and they were held as prisoners of war in Iraq until 1989 when Saddam Hussein released all Iranian POWs unilaterally.

[Roland Oliphant]

But you also then took part in an Iraqi attack and invaded Iran from Iraq. That's true.

[Ali Safavi]

Well, I will get to that. I will get to that now. So there's no question that we as patriotic Iranians opposed the invasion of our country, just as we by Iraq and we would oppose that by any other country. That point number one. Point number two. The MEK after 1982, when Iraqi forces withdrew behind international borders and said it was ready to negotiate the MEK as many Iranians believed that the war was no longer a patriotic war. It was Khomeini's war. Khomeini remember had the mantra of liberating Jerusalem via Karbala. And 80% of the world's casualties, especially those tens of thousands of minesweepers who were sent to the war front, came after 1982. Still, the MEK was in France. And so the MEK proposed a peace plan based upon the 1975 Algiers Agreement that would have given Iran reparations, that would have settled the dispute over Shattol Arab Waterway. And Iraq accepted it as a workable basis to arrive at a negotiated settlement officially. But the Khomeini rejected that. And so our mission really going to Iraq was to bring peace to that conflict because both the people of Iran and the people of Iraq and the whole region suffering from that conflict. Now, point number three, if I may say. The MEK went to Iraq six years after the war started and its military activities began in 1987, seven years after the war. And in all of those operations, it acted independent of the Iraqi government and it targeted the Revolutionary Guards. And in its last offensive, In July of 1988, when the MEK penetrated 170 km to the gates of my hometown, Kermanshah, it was only thwarted because it had no air cover. Now remember that during the entire course of the Iran Iraq war, none of the parties had penetrated more than maybe five or six kilometers into each other's territory. The MEK went in 170 kilometers, because the people on the cities they approach, and I know them by heart, Khosrabi, Islamabad, Sarpole Sahab. They all welcomed the MEK with open arms. And notion that somehow the MEK sided with Iraq in its fight against Iran is a distorted narrative.

[Roland Oliphant]

Ali, this is what most Iranians believe, really. And we're not talking. We're not talking about the regime. We're talking about people who, I mean, I've personally had these conversations countless times. We're talking about people who can't stand the regime, who hate the regime, who've seen their family imprisoned by the regime or seen people killed. And I've. I mean, you must know this, that again and again lots of them will say the only thing worse than this regime would be the mek. And as far as they're concerned, you did, whatever words you put on it, you sided with Saddam Hussein. So what do you say to them?

[Ali Safavi]

Because yes, of course, Iranians, just like others, just like Westerners, are subject to the Iranian regime propaganda. Remember what Google said? Tell a lie that's big enough and repeat it often enough and the whole world will believe it. But I think that now the question is as time goes by, as facts become clearer, people begin to realize that this whole narrative is a wrong narrative. And the story was entirely different. We wanted to bring peace to Iran, to the Iran Iraq war, when they were caused by the leadership of the MEK on Saddam Hussein during the War of the Cities, to stop firing missiles in Iranians to Iranian cities. And they agreed to. And so in this case, to be honest with you, I believe our policy.

[Roland Oliphant]

Do you think the Iranian public are ready to hear that message?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, I think it's a big. The mek, despite all of the trials and tribulations, the execution of its members and sympathizers in the 1988 massacre, all of the obstacles that unfortunately, Western governments, including the UK government, have placed in his path to appease the mullahs, is here, alive and well and strong as it is, points to the kind of support it has within Iran itself. How could we have survived without having a popular base within Iran? Who funds our activities?

[Roland Oliphant]

Well, who does fund your activities?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, the people of Iran do. The people of Iran do the people in the diaspora.

[Roland Oliphant]

Do you talk about these armed groups, these MEK armed groups on the ground, how closely are they working with the Americans and the Israelis? You'll be aware of the reports that it was the MEK agents who carried out on behalf of the Israelis the killings of Iranian scientists during the 2010s. We had a former US intelligence expert on the POD last week who said very often the teams on the ground who are working for the Israelis are Mekhi. Is it fair to say that your group, these MEK armed fighters on the ground, are working in close coordination with the Israelis and the Americans right now in this operation?

[Ali Safavi]

That's another false narrative taken as fact. Absolutely not. The MEK never, ever had any role whatsoever in the killing of the Iranian scientist.

[Roland Oliphant]

But on this current war, because you say there's a very large number of them who are armed and on the ground and fighting, are they working in close coordination with the Israelis and the Americans?

[Ali Safavi]

No, I think not.

[Roland Oliphant]

Part of the same war effort?

[Ali Safavi]

No. One thing the MEK is known for in its 60 year history is its independence. We have never, ever in our history, neither the MEK nor the coalition in which it is a part, the ncri, has ever asked any foreign government for financial assistance or military support. We've never, in fact.

[Roland Oliphant]

Why then do kind of former intelligence people tell us that the MEK is one of the groups that sometimes work with Mossad?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, go and ask them. But when it comes to us, we don't work with any foreign intelligence agency at all. Believe me, if there was a single piece of evidence, whether it is of cooperation between the MEK and foreign intelligence services or with Iraq during the many years they were in Iraq, it would have surfaced by now.

[Roland Oliphant]

Your position is it's pro democratic and you want to see democratic elections in Iran after the regime is removed, Is that correct?

[Ali Safavi]

Absolutely. In fact, on February 28, after Khamenei was killed, within a few hours, the NCRA announced a provincial government which will be in power for no more than six months. It will hold free, unfair elections to elect the Constitutional assembly and draft the future constitution. I'm sure you've seen Mrs. Rajavi's ten point plan, which many have called it the Jeffersonian plan. Look, my point is this. We have embarked upon this historic struggle for six years not to assume power, nor to even have a share of power. Our task, as Mrs. Rajavi has said time and again, is to fight and sacrifice so that the Iranian people can achieve freedom and that sovereignty will be returned to its rightful owners. Who are the people of Iran? That's our game. Nothing more than that.

[Roland Oliphant]

So the issue there, as you know, is that you're not the only people who are pronouncing kind of potential provisional governments. So you guys are sitting there saying, we represent the Iranian people, we'll have a provisional government, then we'll have elections, and we are the true representatives of a future democratic Iran. As you know, the other person doing that is Reza Paqlavi, the exiled Crown Prince of Iran who has a degree of following inside the country and outside the country. Is he the man to lead the country? I suppose. I know you're going to say no, so I suppose the question is why is there such a big gap between you?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, first of all, let me just qualify what you just said with one thing. We are not claiming to be the true representatives of the Iranian people. The Iranian people will elect the representative through free and fair elections from the ballot box. We are consider ourselves patriots who are willing to sacrifice and as Thomas Jefferson said, replenish the tree of liberty with their blood. That's who we are. Now, as to whether tomorrow the people of Iran will vote for us or not, it's their choice. If they do not vote for us, we're perfectly content to remain an opposition force. We have been for 60 years. Maybe we'll be in opposition force for another 60 years. That's fine. That's no problem. That's point number one. Point number two, when it comes To Reza Pahlavi, the issue really is not a personal issue. Monarchy in Iran in the past 100 years and even before that during the Qajar dynasty and even during the Safavi dynasty. And you know, they are my ancestors, I come from the Safavi dynasty that the monarchy in Iran has always been synonymous with authoritarianism and dictatorship. And when it comes to the Pahlavi dynasty, remember that Reza Shah, the grandfather of Reza Pahlavi, was installed to the throne by the British. Sir Raymond Ironside believed that Iran needs a strong man. And of course, Reza Pahlavi became the Shah of Iran. And what was his rule like? He suppressed 35% of Iranian population, the ethnic minorities, the Kurds, the Arabs, the Baluchis and so forth. And then he cozied up to Hitler during World War II. And of course the British embassy sent a three letter, three sentence telegram, basically removing him from power and installing his son Muhammad Reza. And who is Mohammad Reza? Well, you know well as I do that MI6 and CIA conspired in collusion with the Iranian Communist Party and the Mullahs to overthrow Dr. Mossadegh, the only elected Prime Minister of Iran, and restored the Shah to power.

[Roland Oliphant]

This is the 1953 coup you're talking about. Exactly.

[Ali Safavi]

Yes, yes. And of course, what did the Shah do? So you see, Iran in its hundred year history for 57 years has had the Shah and his father and for 47 years has had Khomeini, Khamenei and now Mojtaba. Our vision for the future of Iran is no dictatorship.

[Roland Oliphant]

Okay, but he says he's not interested in dictatorship. He's talking about a constitutional monarchy. He's talking about a referendum in which the Iranian people can choose between a republic and a constitutional monarchy. He says his only red line is that it has to be a democracy. So he's kind of saying the same things as you guys. And the other thing, of course is that he does have, whatever you think of him, he does have a degree of traction. I mean, we've spoken to, again, this is not, you know, there aren't, for obvious reasons in Iran, you can't have a kind of Amori Ipsos poll that is, you know, going to tell you exactly what public opinion thinks because it's an authoritarian regime. But nonetheless, you know, anecdotally, we've spoken to lots of Iranians. I've spoken to lots of Iranians, including people who say I'm not a monarchist, I'm a leftist. I never liked him. People who I know who used to say, I can't stand Reza Pekhlavu have now started saying to me things like, look, we need a figurehead. He's the figurehead we've got. That's better than the mullahs and that's fine. We can work with that.

[Ali Safavi]

First of all, when it comes to Reza Pahlavi, he has never distanced himself from the crimes of his father. In fact, even now he glorifies his father. And his grandfather now has been begging the United States and Israel to attack Iran. Which nationalist leader who cares for his own people would make such a demand? And he calls it humanitarian intervention. What kind of humanitarian intervention? Thousands of civilians have already been killed. 110 school children were killed in Minaab in southern Iran. And so he up has absolutely no legitimacy to talk about the future of Iran. And more than that, in the past 47 years, what has he done within Iran? We lost 100,000 men and women in the country. We were forced into exile. And so my point is that Reza Pahlavi doesn't represent anything. Yes, he talks about democracy.

[Roland Oliphant]

What about all those Iranians, though? What about those Iranians I was talking about, like people who say we'll take him as our, as our figurehead? The point I'm getting at here, I can see how strongly you feel about this. I can see how strongly you feel about the monarchists, about Paklavi and so on. And I can see how strongly you feel about the allegations that have been leveled against your organization. But there's an issue here, isn't there, which is that the Iranian opposition, the opposition to the regime is incredibly divided. And as long as you're saying things like that about somebody who represents a vast swathe, maybe not everybody, certainly not you and your followers, but a vast swathe of Iranian society and who some Iranians are now saying, even people who are anti monarchist are saying, well, you know, we need a figurehead. Maybe it's him. Maybe we can have a Spanish style transition. I mean, doesn't this all play into the hands of the regime of the IRGC to see their supposed opponents fighting so much?

[Ali Safavi]

I would say the exact opposite. In fact, you know, the Iranians, and not just us, many call Reza Pahlavi Reza Tafraghe, which means Reza the Divider. The Iranian people, in no way do they want to return to the times of the Shah. They have the experience of the Shah. I'm not denying that there are some people who may be nostalgic, but that does not represent the overwhelming sentiment of the Iranian people. Can I ask the simple question? Where were they in January 2026, when the IRGC was slaughtering the Iranian people? Where were they? He now claimed there are up to 160,000. Where are they?

[Roland Oliphant]

If I turned that round, I could also say, where are the mek? You say you've got these thousands and thousands of people. You didn't prevent a massacre. And despite all of these armed people you say you have on the ground, you failed to overthrow the regime.

[Ali Safavi]

We gave it our best. We lost 2000 in the course of just January. And so, yes, it's a tough struggle. You're facing an entrenched enemy, an IRGC that has, of course, developed very sophisticated means of suppressing the population. But we are fighting in the streets of Iran. Where are Reza Pahlavi's fighters in Iran? Have you seen any? I haven't seen any. Has anybody, any of them blooded his nose? I haven't seen any. So I think it's one thing to sit in the conference of Washington and make proclamations to the Iranian people is another thing to be there on the ground and face death day in and day out. There's entirely two different things. And let me tell you, I came to the US in 1971. I went to Paris, to Neufel Le Chateau, here, when Khomeini was here. I was there. I was there for a month. And Khomeini said all the right things, even better than Reza Pahlavi.

[Roland Oliphant]

He didn't talk about it before the revolution in 1979.

[Ali Safavi]

Yes, before the revolution. And when he went to Iran, what did he do? He betrayed every promise he had made. And when people asked him, why did you do this? He said, what about what you said in Paris? He said, I deceived everybody. He said it publicly. And so it's one thing to make all these nice claims about democracy and so forth is another to be willing to pay the price for it.

[Roland Oliphant]

Look, can we finish on just like what? Where you see this going now? So we've had 18 days of war. The Israelis and the Americans kind of suggested that, okay, we'll create the space for a street uprising. It doesn't seem to have happened. All our reporting on the ground suggests that the regime controls the streets and is being very careful about controlling the streets and is making sure there isn't any space at all for a street revolution to take place. Where do you think this goes from here?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, I think that, as I said in the beginning of our discussion, as Mrs. Rajavi has said time and again, the responsibility to liberate Iran and its people from the clutches of this murderous regime rests only and only with the Iranian people and the patriots who are willing to pay the price. Yes, I agree with you. It's a very difficult struggle. We know that. We've been involved in the thick and thin of it for 47 years, with all the defeats, with all the successes, with all the pains, with all the smiles. Yes, it is a very difficult struggle. And it is our responsibility. It means that we have to do more. We have to sacrifice more. We have to organize more.

[Roland Oliphant]

Sacrifice what?

[Ali Safavi]

Our people, Our lives?

[Roland Oliphant]

More people have to die.

[Ali Safavi]

Nobody will give you freedom in a silver platter. No one. No one. The British people suffered a great deal under Hitler, but they were willing to pay the price. At a time when nobody thought that Hitler could be defeated, it was this.

[Roland Oliphant]

So are you saying just to bring things back to nuts and bolts, are you saying there has to be fighting and violence in Iran to overthrow?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, you know, John Kennedy said once, those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. The American history has that, the French history has that.

[Roland Oliphant]

Do you not fear the threat of a civil war tearing apart?

[Ali Safavi]

No. We don't know why. Because the Iranian people, from whatever creed, race or ethnicity, are united in one goal, overthrowing the Mollus regime.

[Roland Oliphant]

Okay, but you're saying there has to be an armed uprising.

[Ali Safavi]

It has to be, yes. I mean, what can the Iranian people do in the face of. You know, just three days ago, the head of the state security force, Ahmad Rezaradan, said, anybody who comes to the street, we will shoot them. So what do you do?

[Roland Oliphant]

Understood.

[Ali Safavi]

You have to. You have to be willing to. And you have to be prepared to fight for your freedom. And that will come, I'm sure. One has to be patient.

[Roland Oliphant]

An essential question is, I mean, are you basically in favor of the war? Do you think the war should stop?

[Ali Safavi]

Well, we said it from the very beginning that war is not the answer to the Iranian riddle. War has never been. It wasn't in Iraq, it wasn't in Libya, and it's not going to be in Iran either. I think one thing that would be far more effective on the part of the United States and Europe is to say this regime must go. And we will lend our political support to the organized opposition to carry its march forward toward freedom.

[Roland Oliphant]

Would you like to see the Iranian and American operation end then?

[Ali Safavi]

Sooner or later, that's for the American administration, the US Administration, to decide. But what I am saying is that there must be a recognition of the Iranian people. To have a democratic future and of course, an outreach, an engagement to the organized opposition.

[Roland Oliphant]

That was Ali Safavi of the National Council of Resistance of Iran. That's all for today. We'll be back tomorrow with more. In the meantime, if you want more on the fate of Ari Larajani, Akhtar has just published a very incisive piece about why his death might be more significant than that of the Supreme Leader himself. You can find that on telegraph.co.uk. until then, that was Iran the Latest Goodbye Iran the Latest is an original podcast from the Telegraph, created by David Knowles and hosted by me, Roland Oliphant and Venetia Rainey. If you appreciated this podcast, please consider following Iran the Latest formerly Battle Lines on your preferred podcast app. And if you have a moment, please leave a review as this helps others find the show. To stay on top of all our news, subscribe to the Telegraph, sign up for our Dispatchers newsletter or listen to our sister podcast Ukraine for latest we're still on the same email address battlelinestelegraph.co.uk or contact us on X. You can find our handles in the show. Notes the producer is Peter Shevlin. The Executive Producer is Louisa Wells.

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