Podcast
BE THAT LAWYER
Hosted by Steve Fretzin · EN
BE THAT LAWYER is for attorneys who want more freedom, enjoyment and most importantly, control in their career. Topics will include business development, marketing, branding, technology, and law firm growth. The goal is to educate, entertain and share best practices related to these topics, so that you, the listener can get real value. This is primarily an interview show with great guests (attorneys and legal marketing professionals), sharing stories and analogies, as well as engaging in personal discussions that will keep you entertained and coming back week after week.
45episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Clay Stelzer: Radical Responsibility and the Path to Full Aliveness
3d ago00:33:12Tap to summarizeWhat would you be willing to risk for “full aliveness”? In this episode, leadership coach Clay Stelzer unpacks radical responsibility, unconscious fear patterns, and how courageous self-awareness can transform the way you lead, work, and live. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Clay Stelzer discuss: The meaning of “full aliveness” and positive selfishness Radical responsibility vs. victim, blame, and hero patterns Unconscious fears around security, approval, and control Feedback, delegation, and leadership blind spots Handling triggers, anger, and emotional energy as a leader Key Takeaways: You can’t create a fulfilling life or career without first getting radically honest about what you truly want and what you’re currently sacrificing to please others. Most of the outcomes people dislike in their lives are driven by reactive, fear-based decisions made without intention. Leaders are constantly influenced by three unconscious fears: threats to security, approval, and control, and these fears quietly shape decisions around feedback, delegation, and team dynamics. Taking radical responsibility means noticing your patterns, acknowledging your part in any situation, and choosing to learn rather than blame, shame, or play the hero. Emotional triggers and anger shouldn’t be buried; when you move that energy in healthy ways, you regain access to clarity, curiosity, and better leadership choices. "If you could be absolutely selfish and hurt no one's feelings, what would you want? Just understanding that is so important, because then you can get clear about what am I sacrificing or what am I compromising." — Clay Stelzer Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Clay Stelzer: Clay Stelzer is an executive coach, public speaker, and founder of 15sixty, where he helps high-performing leaders, founders, and senior teams get unstuck, reclaim professional alignment, and take radical responsibility for their lives and businesses. Grounded in the principles of Conscious Leadership, Clay draws on a rich professional background that includes building a global team coaching practice at Salesforce, where he supported over 150 international teams and leaders. He pairs his extensive coaching credentials—including an ICF Professional Certified Coach (PCC) designation, ORSC certification, and a Conscious Leadership Group certification—with a BA in Psychology from the University of Illinois and an MBA from Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business. Known for his deep presence, fierce honesty, and rare ability to challenge leaders without judgment, Clay creates the vital conditions for trust, clarity, and bold collective leadership from his home in Glen Ellyn, Illinois, where he lives with his family and their black lab. Connect with Clay Stelzer: Website: https://15sixty.com/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Scott Mason: Rewriting Your Lawyer Story for Growth and Freedom
1w ago00:38:13Tap to summarizeTrapped in a “successful” legal career that still feels miserable? In this episode, Scott Mason reveals how toxic myths, rigid roles, and fear-based stories quietly sabotage lawyers’ happiness, business development, and long-term success, and how to rewrite your narrative into a heroic one. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Scott Mason discuss: Storytelling, symbolism, and the narratives lawyers live by The five “toxic myths” and how they trap attorneys Identity vs. role and redefining who you really are Mindset, risk-taking, and breaking through fear in business development Revenue diversification, near-death wake-up calls, and life lessons Key Takeaways: The stories you tell yourself about business development, success, and your career become the symbolic scripts that ultimately define your identity and legacy. External validation and social expectations can trap lawyers in careers and lifestyles that look impressive on the outside but feel empty or misaligned on the inside. Confusing your professional role with your core identity creates fragility; separating the two opens space for growth, reinvention, and more authentic choices. Mindset work is not “optional” if you want sustainable business development. Unexamined myths around risk, failure, and sales can quietly sabotage your efforts. Overreliance on a single revenue stream or professional lane is dangerous; diversifying how you create value and income is both a business and a life-preservation strategy. "You're living out the ritual myth when you engage in behaviors or ways of being over and over and over again, even though they no longer serve you." — Scott Mason Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Scott Mason: Scott Mason is an executive leadership coach, keynote speaker, and founder of My Freedom Rocks, where he specializes in helping attorneys and corporate leaders transform their careers by dislodging "toxic myths" and unlocking professional freedom. A graduate of Columbia Law School, he spent over 25 years working as an attorney and C-suite executive in the government and non-profit sectors, including serving as second-in-command of New York City's central administrative law court, before successfully scaling and running a multi-city manufacturing company. Today, he channels his deep corporate, legal, and entrepreneurial experience into a signature, mythology-inspired coaching framework designed to catalyze personal charisma, build resilience, and ignite authentic leadership. Connect with Scott Mason: Website: https://www.myfreedomrocks.com/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Myth_Slayer LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/themythslayer/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Jordan Ostroff & Jeremy Baker: Scaling a Solo Law Firm Without Losing Your Life (Part 2)
1w ago00:33:27Tap to summarizeThe real challenges begin when your solo practice finally starts to take off. In this episode, you’ll learn how to manage growth, hire wisely, protect your time, and build a profitable, sustainable firm instead of drowning in low‑value work. In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff, and Jeremy Baker discuss: Constraints and growing pains of a solo law firm Time management, delegation, and letting go Revenue vs. systems and when to build processes Finding clients through networks, content, and clear positioning Hiring strategy, vetting candidates, and building for profit Key Takeaways: Growth brings new constraints, and the job of a solo is to constantly identify which constraint matters most right now and address it without creating a bigger problem elsewhere. Tracking time and ruthlessly eliminating low‑value tasks is essential; answering phones and doing your own books will keep you stuck in first gear. Revenue should come before heavy process-building, but documenting how you do things early makes onboarding future hires dramatically easier. Defining an ideal client and then going where those people already gather turns scattered marketing into focused, repeatable business development. Profitability and the kind of life you want should drive decisions about firm size, hiring, and practice areas—not what other lawyers around you are doing. "The beauty of life is you get to make your own scorecard for 99% of things, so make sure you have the right scorecard." — Jordan Ostroff Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Jordan Ostroff: Jordan Ostroff is the CEO of Driven Law and Carpe Diem Consulting. A former prosecutor and the first lawyer in his family, Jordan overcame $200,000 in early business debt to build a thriving, low-volume personal injury practice. Now the best-selling author of Love Your Law Firm, he works 20–25 hours a week, allowing him time for family and coaching other attorneys to achieve a similar high quality of life. About Jeremy Baker: Jeremy Baker is a veteran construction attorney and litigator representing owners, developers, and design professionals. In his sixth year of solo practice, he specializes in cost-efficient solutions for issues like contract negotiation and sustainable design. While an experienced litigator in 30+ venues and dozens of arbitrations, Jeremy prioritizes dispute avoidance and alternative dispute resolution. An early proponent of the Guided Choice Dispute Resolution System, he provides strategic advocacy to resolve high-stakes claims without the need for traditional litigation. Connect with Jordan Ostroff: Website: https://www.legaleasemarketing.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-ostroff/ Connect with Jeremy Baker: Website: https://designbuildlaw.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremysbaker/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Jordan Ostroff & Jeremy Baker: From Big Law and Prosecution to Thriving Solo Practices (Part 1)
2w ago00:34:39Tap to summarizeThinking about going solo but stuck in anxiety and overplanning? In this episode, two lawyers who successfully left prosecution and big law share the real math, mindset, and first 90‑day moves that make or break a new solo practice. In this episode, Steve Fretzin, Jordan Ostroff, & Jeremy Baker discuss: Deciding when and why to go solo Leaving a firm the right way and preserving relationships Planning for cash flow, costs, and the first 90 days Using AI and lean tech instead of heavy overhead Common mistakes with hiring, planning, and business development Key Takeaways: The decision to launch a solo practice often comes from a clear moment of misalignment, realizing the “next promotion” or status quo is not the life or career you actually want. A realistic financial and marketing plan, what you’ll spend, how you’ll earn, and where new files will come from, is more important than a perfect logo, office, or tech stack. Maintaining integrity and open communication when you leave a firm protects your reputation, preserves referrals, and can turn former colleagues into long-term allies. Early-stage solos should prioritize cash flow and relationships over tinkering with systems; networking your existing contacts usually beats waiting on websites and ads to work. AI tools can dramatically reduce startup costs and speed up execution, but they are a supplement to, not a substitute for, consistent outreach and business development. "What I did wrong in year one was I didn't hire people, and what I did wrong in year two is I hired people the wrong way." — Jeremy Baker Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Jordan Ostroff: Jordan Ostroff is the CEO of Driven Law and Carpe Diem Consulting. A former prosecutor and the first lawyer in his family, Jordan overcame $200,000 in early business debt to build a thriving, low-volume personal injury practice. Now the best-selling author of Love Your Law Firm, he works 20–25 hours a week, allowing him time for family and coaching other attorneys to achieve a similar high quality of life. About Jeremy Baker: Jeremy Baker is a veteran construction attorney and litigator representing owners, developers, and design professionals. In his sixth year of solo practice, he specializes in cost-efficient solutions for issues like contract negotiation and sustainable design. While an experienced litigator in 30+ venues and dozens of arbitrations, Jeremy prioritizes dispute avoidance and alternative dispute resolution. An early proponent of the Guided Choice Dispute Resolution System, he provides strategic advocacy to resolve high-stakes claims without the need for traditional litigation. Connect with Jordan Ostroff: Website: https://www.legaleasemarketing.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-ostroff/ Connect with Jeremy Baker: Website: https://designbuildlaw.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremysbaker/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Simone Fulmer Gaus: Building a Law Firm on People, Pipeline, Process, Product, and Profit
2w ago00:30:11Tap to summarizeWhat happens when a trial lawyer stops replicating the traditional firm model and starts treating her practice like a business? In this episode, Simone Fulmer Gaus shares the five-part framework that took her from burnout and cash-flow crises to a scalable, values-driven law firm. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Simone Fulmer Gaus discuss: Facing hard truths and business challenges in law practice Leaving the traditional firm model to build a different kind of practice The five pillars: people, pipeline, process, product, profitability Delegation, time blocking, and working on the business Values-based hiring and retaining the right team Key Takeaways: You cannot build a healthy, scalable practice if you insist on personally controlling every aspect of the firm. Treating the firm as its own “entity” that needs care and strategy, separate from the legal work, changes how you make decisions. Structuring the business into clear buckets (people, pipeline, process, product, profitability) gives clarity on what’s broken and what to fix first. Setting aside dedicated time each week to work on the business, not just in it, is essential to moving out of chaos. Hiring and retaining the right people depends less on résumés and more on alignment with clearly defined core values. "You can automate so much of what you could do, you can delegate so much of what you do, and you can definitely, whether you believe it or not, eliminate a whole lot of those hats you're wearing." — Simone Fulmer Gaus Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Simone Fulmer Gaus: Simone Fulmer Gaus is a nationally recognized plaintiff trial lawyer and co-founder of Fulmer Sill, with nearly three decades of experience in high-stakes civil litigation. Specializing in insurance bad-faith disputes and catastrophic injury cases, Simone brings a unique "insider" perspective to her practice, having begun her career in the general counsel’s office of a major insurance company. Since 1998, she has leveraged this knowledge to hold powerful insurers accountable, ensuring they honor their obligations to policyholders and injured individuals. Beyond the courtroom, Simone is a respected author and speaker, focusing on law firm leadership and operational structure. Her work is informed by both professional rigor and personal experience; after a family member sustained a traumatic brain injury, she deepened her commitment to families facing life-altering harm. Today, she balances her role as an advocate with her work as the author of The Set-Up, helping other trial firms achieve sustainable growth through disciplined preparation and strategic clarity. Connect with Simone Fulmer Gaus: Website: https://www.fulmersill.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonefulmergaus/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Elise Holtzman: The Three Pillars of Business Development for Lawyers
3w ago00:33:47Tap to summarizeMost lawyers are taught to color inside the lines until they realize that won’t build the book of business they want. In this episode, you’ll learn how to move from random acts of marketing to a focused, scalable rainmaking strategy using relationships, visible expertise, and a true support team. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Elise Holtzman discuss: Mindset shift from “born rainmaker” to “learned skill” Getting started: moving beyond random acts of marketing The three pillars of business development (relationships, visible expertise, thoughts/time/team) Breaking through plateaus at $500K+ and $1M+ books of business Delegation, building a team, and the role of a “lieutenant”/sponsor Key Takeaways: Business development is a learnable skill, not an innate talent reserved for a select few; lawyers who treat it like any other competency they’ve mastered can grow serious books of business. Hope is not a strategy. Clarity on ideal clients, referral sources, and where they “hang out” must replace scattered networking and random acts of marketing. Visible expertise is essential: becoming “famous in your niche” through speaking, writing, and thought leadership ensures you’re not the best-kept secret in your practice area. As a book of business grows, time, team, and the courage to say no become critical levers; lawyers must deliberately delegate and build a trusted support structure if they want to scale beyond early successes. Every revenue level introduces new, different challenges; plateaus are not signs of failure but signals that it’s time to reassess, refine strategy, and upgrade how you use your time, team, and leadership. "Stepping outside the comfort zone with support is the way to go." — Elise Holtzman Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Elise Holtzman: Elise is the founder and CEO of The Lawyer’s Edge, a coaching and consulting firm that helps lawyers and law firms strengthen business development, leadership, and communication skills. A former practicing attorney with experience at Am Law 100 firms, including Fried Frank and Morgan Lewis, Elise combines her legal background with executive coaching to help attorneys grow profitable practices and build healthier firm cultures. She is a frequent speaker on leadership and rainmaking, host of The Lawyer’s Edge Podcast, and has been featured in publications including Law360 and The New York Law Journal. Elise earned her J.D. from Columbia Law School and her B.A. in Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. Connect with Elise Holtzman: Website: https://thelawyersedge.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eliseholtzman/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Rob Hanna: Why Lawyers Must Embrace Content, Community, and Brand to Stay Relevant
3w ago00:35:06Tap to summarizeIn a world where technology and AI are reshaping legal services, simply doing great work is no longer enough. In this episode, you’ll learn how leveraging content, personal brand, and community can keep you relevant, visible, and in demand as the market rapidly evolves. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Rob Hanna discuss: Health, habits, and intentional self-care for high performers Legal career journey, recruiting, and launching a podcast Thought leadership, content creation, and personal brand for lawyers The rise and power of online and offline communities Technology, AI, and the shifting expectations of legal clients Key Takeaways: Treat your health as a non-negotiable business asset; intentionally scheduling exercise, sleep, and recovery fuels better performance, energy, and longevity in your career. Content is not a vanity play. It’s how you stay visible, demonstrate expertise, and become the “go-to” choice when clients are finally ready to buy. Community gives law firm owners and lawyers a safe space to be seen, heard, and supported, breaking the isolation that comes with leadership and entrepreneurship. Technology and AI are eroding the value of pure grunt work, making human judgment, brand, and community presence more crucial than ever to remain relevant. You don’t need to build a massive empire to benefit from community; starting small, with a few peers, a simple WhatsApp group, or light-touch LinkedIn activity, can compound into powerful opportunities over time. "I've never met anyone who's built a community who's regretted it.” — Rob Hanna Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Rob Hanna: Rob Hanna is the founder and host of Legally Speaking Podcast, one of the leading platforms spotlighting legal professionals and industry innovators around the world. With a background in legal recruitment and a passion for storytelling, he has built a global community by sharing insightful conversations on careers, leadership, and the future of law. Known for his engaging style and commitment to adding value, Rob connects lawyers, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders through content that informs, inspires, and elevates the legal profession. Connect with Rob Hanna: Website: https://legallyspeakingpodcast.com/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Jason Stiehl: Relationships Over Sales – How Real Connections Build a Legal Practice
4w ago00:34:12Tap to summarizeWhat does it really take to move from overworked service partner to trusted rainmaker—without feeling salesy or inauthentic? In this episode, you’ll hear a candid breakdown of career missteps, relationship-first business development, and how patience and consistency can transform a legal practice. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Jason Stiehl discuss: Transitioning from service partner to rainmaker Relationship-based business development Honesty, trust, and cross-marketing inside a firm Content creation, podcasts, and visibility for lawyers Career mistakes, firm moves, and learning from missteps Key Takeaways: Developing a real book of business starts with owning client relationships directly, not just doing great work behind the scenes. The most effective business development feels less like selling and more like building genuine, long-term relationships based on trust. Honesty about what you and your firm can and cannot do is a powerful differentiator—and sometimes means referring work elsewhere. Consistency in follow-up, presence, and outreach matters far more than one-off networking “sprints” or scattershot emails. Before making a big firm move, dig deeply into culture, capabilities, and expectations; the wrong platform can cost time, clients, and momentum. "You have to go to different markets. You have to go to different people. You have to realize that if the audience you’re reaching is the same all the time, you're never going to grow." — Jason Stiehl Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Jason Stiehl: Jason Stiehl is a partner in Crowell & Moring’s Chicago office, where he focuses on class action defense and trade secret protection. An experienced trial lawyer with a nationwide practice, he represents clients across industries in complex litigation, including consumer class actions, advertising disputes, and intellectual property matters. Known for immersing himself in his clients’ businesses, Jason develops strategic defenses to protect their most valuable assets, from brand reputation to proprietary technology. His work spans high-stakes domestic and cross-border disputes, and he has been recognized for his role in securing major dismissals in consumer fraud class actions. Connect with Jason Stiehl: Website: https://www.crowell.com/en/professionals/jason-stiehl LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-stiehl-22a82b4/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Dillon Zwick: The Science of Relationships and Business Development for Lawyers
May 400:34:04Tap to summarizeMost lawyers treat networking like a necessary evil, but what if you approached it as a science of human relationships instead of sales? In this episode, you’ll learn how to build a small, powerful circle of trusted relationships that drive referrals, opportunities, and long-term career security. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Dillon Zwick discuss: The Harvard study on adult development and why relationships drive happiness How to reframe networking from “selling” to genuine relationship building Finding common ground and “natural affinities” to build trust Prioritizing and qualifying strategic partners using likability and referability Using systems, Dunbar’s numbers, and cadence to maintain a high-value network Key Takeaways: Long-term health, happiness, and even business success are far more correlated with the quality of your relationships than with money, status, or genetics. Networking works best when it is treated as a relationship-building exercise rooted in curiosity and service, not as a pitch or sales event. Common ground, including shared background, interests, values, or experiences, is one of the fastest and most reliable ways to create authentic connection and trust. Because time is limited, you need to intentionally prioritize relationships based on both how much you genuinely like someone and how capable and inclined they are to create opportunities for others. A simple, consistent follow-up system and a realistic understanding of how many relationships you can truly maintain, based on Dunbar’s research, can ensure you are never forgotten and rarely without work. "Relationships don't happen just by happenstance. You have to invest in your relationships and the people around you to develop them." — Dillon Zwick Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Dillon Zwick: Dillon has spent about 5 years in the field of corporate renewal with a background in heavy industrial design and manufacturing. Dillon’s primary team role has been finding opportunities, solving difficult problems, and figuring out whatever needs to get done. He has helped numerous client companies successfully work through the corporate restructuring process. In that capacity, he has worked closely with CEOs, CFOs, and their respective accounting staff to support cash-constrained situations, providing transparency and strategic analytical support to the restructuring process. Dillon earned a B.S. in Biochemistry and a B.A. in History from the University of North Texas in 2011. He serves as President on the Turnaround Management Association – Central Texas chapter board, along with being a Director of the Association of Corporate Growth NextGen – Austin/San Antonio chapter board. Connect with Dillon Zwick: Website: https://meadowlarkadvisors.com/about/bio-dillon/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dillon-zwick/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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Nick Augustine: Escaping the Billable Hour Trap with Authentic Content and Smart Delegation
Apr 3000:34:12Tap to summarizeIn a world where lawyers are drowning in billable hours and generic marketing, this episode breaks down how to build an authentic brand, escape time traps through delegation, and use content strategically instead of reactively. Discover how small shifts in mindset and marketing execution can unlock both growth and a better life outside the office. In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Nick Augustine discuss: The Ferris Bueller mindset and lawyer work-life balance Authentic branding vs. “monkey see, monkey do” legal marketing Choosing the right content format based on personality and strengths Consistency, LinkedIn, and the rise (and risk) of AI-generated content Outsourcing, ego, and overcoming limiting niches in law firm growth Key Takeaways: Many lawyers run so fast on the billable-hour treadmill that they never stop to question whether their practice is actually supporting the life they want, rather than consuming it. Copying what “successful” peers appear to be doing is a trap; real differentiation comes from leaning into what genuinely makes you unique instead of being a polished imitator. The most effective marketing channel is the one you’ll willingly stick with—whether that’s writing, podcasting, answering Q&A, or being the “behind-the-curtain” expert with a bit of mystique. Consistent, thoughtful content can cut through the noise on platforms like LinkedIn, especially when it’s clearly human and not just generic AI output churned out to check a box. Over-niching and letting ego dictate who you serve and how can cap your growth; expanding your perspective beyond one industry, geography, or format can unlock far more opportunity. "Outsourcing... it helps people begin to understand that they have put themselves in a limiting box where they're limited financially by time versus dollars with hourly billers." — Nick Augustine Check out my new show, Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner, and get the strategies I use with my clients to win more business and love your career again. Join the Be That Lawyer Community and connect with ambitious lawyers who are serious about growing their book of business, strengthening their brand, and becoming confident, consistent rainmakers. Ready to go from good to GOAT in your legal marketing game? Don’t miss PIMCON—where the brightest minds in professional services gather to share what really works. Lock in your spot now: https://www.pimcon.org/ Thank you to our Sponsor! LEX Reception: https://www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer Rankings.io: https://rankings.io/ Lawyer.com: https://www.lawyer.com/ Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/ About Nick Augustine: Nick Augustine is the founder of Lone Star Content Marketing, where he helps law firms grow through strategic, story-driven content that attracts and converts the right clients. With a background in journalism and digital marketing, he brings a clear, conversational style to complex legal topics—making them accessible without losing their depth or authority. Nick has worked with attorneys across the U.S. to build content systems that generate consistent leads, strengthen brand positioning, and support long-term growth. He is also a frequent podcast guest and educator, sharing practical insights on content strategy, SEO, and ethical marketing for legal professionals. Connect with Nick Augustine: Website: https://lonestarcontentmarketing.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickaugustinetx/ Connect with Steve Fretzin: LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin Twitter: @stevefretzin Instagram: @fretzinsteve Facebook: Fretzin, Inc. Website: Fretzin.com Email: Steve@Fretzin.com Book: Legal Business Development Isn't Rocket Science and more! YouTube: Steve Fretzin Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911 Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
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