← Becker’s Healthcare Podcast
Becker’s Healthcare Podcast
Dr. Wael Barsoum, Professor of Surgery at Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine and President and Chief Transformation Officer at HopCo
00:37:27
Loading summary
Transcript20 lines
- [00:02]
A
This is where healthcare leadership comes together. Becker's 16th annual meeting brings more than 3,500 hospital and health system executives and nearly 800 speakers to Chicago, April 13th through the 16th. This year's event includes keynote conversations with Dallas Cowboys legend Troy Aikman and former President George W. Bush. For the agenda and event details, visit Beckershospitalreview.com and click on the Events tab in the upper right, click. Looking forward to hosting you in Chicago.
- [00:33]
B
This is Scott Becker with the Becker Healthcare Podcast. I'm thrilled today to be joined by one of the smartest physician leaders that I've had a chance to work with over the last 30 years or so. We're joined today by Dr. Will Barsoom. And Dr. Barsoum's got this fascinating career. He was a Cleveland Clinic physician for a long time, and I think he still teaches and is affiliated with Cleveland Clinic. He also was the president of Cleveland Clinic Hospital and led some of their endeavors. Just a fantastic career at Cleveland Clinic. I talked him years ago when he was the CEO of Cleveland Clinic Hospital and Operations in Florida. I believe currently he serves as the president and Chief Transformation Officer of Hopco. And Hopco is the largest, I believe, orthopedic specialty group in the country today. And he'll talk to us about that in his, his transformation and the work that he does with Hopco and a lot more. Dr. Barsoom, I'm sure I've not hit all that correctly. Can you do me a favor and just give us a better introduction of yourself and tell us a little bit more about. About you and your background? Sure.
- [01:42]
A
Thank you very much, Scott. It's a pleasure to be with you. It's always a pleasure to chat with you and to learn from you. So thanks very much for having me. So I did start my clinical career with Cleveland Clinic, and I should say I'm having an incredible career there in that I still operate there, even though I don't hold any administrative roles. That's still where my clinical affiliation is and my academic affiliation as a professor of surgery at the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine at Case Western Reserve. So I did residency there from 95 to 2000, and I did my fellowship in hip and knee replacement in Boston at New England Baptist Hospital and then went back to the Cleveland Clinic, initially in Naples, Florida for about a year and a half and then to the main campus and really just loved my time at main campus. You know, it kind of makes me think of the importance of mentorship. And when I was at the main campus, I was Mentored by some really amazing people. Joe Ioannotti, who is, you know, perhaps the most well known shoulder surgeon in the world, certainly one of the most innovative orthopedic surgeons in history. He was our department chairman. A gentleman named Joe Hahn, who initially was the chief of neurosurgery, then the chief of surgery, then the chief of staff, opened lots and lots of doors for me. And finally a guy named Mark Harrison, who became our chief medical officer. And you may know Mark's name from his time as the CEO of Intermountain Health as well as the CEO of Cleveland Clinic Abu Dhabi. He's really the guy that built Cleveland Clinic Abu Dhabi and made it what it is today. After spending many, many years in Cleveland. In 2014, I remember vividly standing backstage at a conference in New York City. I was getting ready to get up and give a presentation and my phone rings and it was Johan, who was our chief of staff. And when Dr. Hahn calls, you answer the phone. So I answered and he said, will you have a few minutes? I wanted to run something by you. I said, you know, I'm about to give a lecture. Do you mind if I call you back in about 45 minutes? And he said, yeah, no problem. But just, you know, want to let you know what we're going to be talking about. Toby Cosgrove and I would like you to go down and be the CEO of Cleveland Clinic Florida. I said, okay, I'll call you in 45 minutes. And I guess we can, we can talk about that more. And had a great career with the Cleveland Clinic in Florida. Stayed there as CEO and president from 2014 to 2020. Had a lot of fun actually growing the healthcare system and working with some unbelievably talented individuals. And then in 2020, joined one of my closest friends in the world who had started Hopco. Believe it or not, it's now been. Hopco has been around now for over 20 years. So he had started at about 15 or 16 years before, and we'd been in close contact. And he said, listen, you gotta come and join, join me. We're gonna do great things. So for the last five years, I've been with healthcare outcomes performance company Hopco, and it's just been an absolute whirlwind. Lots of learning, lots of growth, and we're now in 30 some states, eight countries, and just having an absolute blast. So I have to say I've had a lot of fun doing the things.
- [05:10]
B
That I'm doing and talk about that because that's such a not a Maverick move, but such an exciting move. You go from sort of the best, you know, one of the top, always ranked 1 to 2 health systems in the world, Cleveland Clinic or Mayo Clinic, always seem to sort of be in, in competition or both in flourishing as the top one or two systems in the world. And yes, amazing what Dr. Harrison and so many others have done there and Dr. Cosgrove and more and then make the switch over to Habco. And now it's been a few years. But talk about sort of the, that's somewhat people would think of as entrepreneurial, almost risk taking. Talk about that decision to make that transformation or that transition your own life and then about some of the things you're most proud of as to what you're doing at Hopco.
- [06:05]
A
Sure, no, I'd be happy to. So, you know, I'll tell you, the real maverick was, was David Tchaikovsky, who founded hopko. So in two, probably it was around 2025, David called me. He was at the Mayo Clinic. He was one of the youngest, if not the youngest section head that the Mayo Clinic ever had. Musculoskeletal oncologist, traumatologist, I was at Cleveland Clinic. We were kind of both, you know, bucks in each of these two organizations. And he called me, he said, listen, I'm going to leave the Mayo Clinic, I'm going to Arizona, I'm going to start this company, I want you to come with me. And he started talking about value based care and how he was going to work with health care systems and payers and take risk and manage musculoskeletal spend and improve quality outcomes. And keep in mind, I mean, this is in 2025. For me, the epitome and the definition of success as a hip and knee replacement surgeon or was how many cases you did and what your outcomes were. This whole idea of talking about value based care and partnering with healthcare systems and payers, it was a completely foreign concept. I remember trying to talk him out of it. Said, man, you're crazy. You're gonna leave the Mayo Clinic and do this. And he did. So when I left the Cleveland Clinic in 2020 to join him, I wish I could say I was as much of a maverick as David was, but 90% of the risk had already been taken out. Now that being said, it was definitely an entrepreneurial move. It was definitely a risk move because you're really leaving a true blue chip organization in a place like a Cleveland Clinic to go and do something that is at that point was probably a large startup is what I would say we were, we were at that time about 800 employees. And today we're up to over 5,000 employees just in five years. I mean, our growth has been pretty astronomical. But I think there are a lot of things about it that I'm really proud of. Right. A lot of people can talk about improving, increasing revenue and increasing contribution margin and increasing EBITDA and net income and things. And I think, listen, I think that's all great, but like you, Scott, I kind of have a feeling, I have this sense that we owe more to society than just being kind of money making machines in healthcare. I think we need to be able to truly improve outcomes. We really need to bend the cost curve in terms of the cost of care in the United States. We live in what most of us would agree is the greatest country in the world, but we spend on average well over twice what every other highly developed country spends per capita for healthcare. And our outcomes, sadly are not the best. When you look at things like infant mortality, when you look at things like administrative burden, when you look at things like management of chronic disease, we don't do very well. So I tell people all the time, look, the United States is a great place to get really, really, really sick in. If anyone can get you better, it's us. It is not a great place to be really, really healthy in. And although we are very, very good at innovating sick care, we have not done a great job in truly innovating healthcare or healthcare delivery. You've talked about things like healthcare education and the fact that in this country we're ripe for changing the way we train our doctors. The training programs are too long. We spend too much time learning things that are honestly not terribly applicable to 99% of doctors and 99% of patients. And we don't train enough doctors. We have a big shortage. I mean, these are the kind of problems that we need to solve. And one of the things that excites me most about Hopco is, is we've taken this sliver of musculoskeletal care and we've said we are going to be the leaders in this one area. We are going to help develop higher quality, lower cost infrastructures for musculoskeletal care. So if you as a patient have a shoulder ailment and you enter the system in an emergency room, in an orthopedic surgeon's office, in a primary care sports medicine doctor's office, in a physical therapist office, however, you enter the system in a remote, digital health mechanism manner, you are going to get the same care from that provider the first time. And we're going to make sure that your care is the right care so that you get the highest likelihood of a good outcome and it ends up costing society and in many cases you as the patient, given the fact that so many of us today have high deductible healthcare plans, that it will cost you the least that it could possibly cost. And that's what I'm excited about, because that is the sliver of healthcare that we are absolutely focused on solving.
- [11:33]
B
And talk a little bit about the growth of Hopka over the years and I know that things are going really well. I know from the physicists that have joined Hopco that it's going really well. But talk about where you see making the greatest impact and how that's going.
- [11:51]
A
Sure, sure. So, you know, in terms of the growth. So the company was started in 2005 with three doctors and one employee. Today we have over 1,000 providers that are managed by Hopco. We have thousands and thousands and thousands. I mean, probably I would say maybe 6,7000 providers that are involved in some kind of risk taking arrangement with Hopco. Through a clinically integrated network, we work with over 25 hospitals and healthcare systems around the country. We have the largest musculoskeletal platforms in several states. And we're working in England, we are working in Australia, we work in France, we work in Germany. All in different ways. In some cases it's with managing a musculoskeletal practice. In other ways it might be managing a surgical facility site, whether it's an ASC or a hospital, a musculoskeletal specialty hospital. It might be in working with a payer to take risk on the delivery of musculoskeletal care. It might be with a healthcare system to improve their musculoskeletal service line. And over time we've kind of slowly expanded into what we call adjacencies, right. Other areas that affect the musculoskeletal system, but may not be what a traditional orthopedic surgeon or a neurosurgical spine surgeon does. So those types of areas, things like vein health, for example, pain management, neurology, I mean, these are all areas that are so intertwined with musculoskeletal health that it makes sense for us to be in those spaces. But we're not looking to be the world leader in women's health or cardiology anytime soon. It really is kind of this pinpoint focus on saying this area for HFCO, we can really solve. So from 2005, again, starting with three providers and one administrative leader, today, to have over 1,000 providers, to have all kinds of channel partnerships with national physical therapy departments, digital partners, big names like Oracle and Microsoft and Dialpad, these are all groups that we are partnered with. It really gives us the ability to make a meaningful dent in the challenges that we're trying to solve in terms of cost and quality of care.
- [14:40]
B
Thank you. And talk about Dr. Bersoom, as you look towards this next year to 2026, there's been fantastic growth so far. What are you most excited about going into 2026 and where are you most focused?
- [14:54]
A
Yeah, so I would say it's a few things, Scott. I think, you know, first and foremost, you know, you mentioned it earlier, we are really, really quite good at managing musculoskeletal practices and managing hospitals. And it used to be that much of that work was done through kind of roll up your sleeves, dig into all kinds of details, pouring through paperwork to figure out operational opportunities and quality metrics and whatnot. We have become an extraordinarily digitally enabled company, you know, meaning almost all of our practices. And soon all of our practices will be on our proprietary electronic medical record. Through that electronic medical record, we pull all kinds of operational data. So I can actually tell you in your, if we manage your surgery center, for example, if we're involved in your surgery center or in your practice, whatever it is, I can tell you what the contribution margin per or minute for every surgeon in your group is in your own asc, right? And you might say, well, look, is that just a way to make more money? It's not. It's a way for us to manage resources, right? If we have ASCs that can be better managed, run for longer periods of time into the night, running them into weekends, like our surgical hospital that we own in Arizona operates on Saturdays. It's the most expensive square footage in healthcare. We want it to be run extraordinarily effectively and efficiently. So in the grand scheme of things, that actually ends up taking cost out of the healthcare system. Because when you operate the facilities that you have at peak efficiency, you can build fewer facilities, and that ends up saving money. And in a country where we are probably 40% overbetted when it comes to hospitals, it really is important that if we're not going to continue to build new hospitals, which I would argue we probably don't need to right now, we can instead optimize the hospitals. We have close, older hospitals that require Massive amounts of recapitalization and run more effectively in lower cost of care sites like surgery centers and office procedural rooms. So you know, this digital enablement that we have in terms of this insight into how hospitals run, how practices run, and finally on the payer side, the ability to ingest raw claims data into our proprietary claims analytics tool and look and see in this region, your utilization of advanced imaging is too high. For example, we can help you bend that cost curve not through things like utilization management, but through education. Right. That is, that's pretty differentiated. So this digital enablement is a major move forward. You know, everyone's going to talk about how excited they are about things like, you know, artificial intelligence. But, but the reality of it is most companies that, that use some kind of an AI platform or new AI platforms that are out there are not really significantly improving operations. For them to improve operations, you have to have really clean data, you have to have the ability to get really crisp answers out of that data and you have to figure out how to apply those answers in real time. So, you know, is there kind of low hanging fruit in areas like revenue cycle call centers? Absolutely. Those are great areas to take out cost and whatnot. But do I think that really exciting terms like artificial intelligence are going to massively reinvent healthcare over the course of the next five years? Absolutely not. Do I think that they're going to help us get some cost out and maybe improve outcomes a little bit? Yeah, I do and I think that's appropriate. But so I think we have to be really thoughtful about when we talk about things like digital enablement, artificial intelligence, the role of the provider in terms of, you know, the connection to a patient. Those are the things that I think I'm most excited about because I feel like we're very well positioned to be able to take care of our patients better than anybody else when it comes to musculoskeletal care.
- [19:20]
B
And doctor, let me ask you this question. You've had this great career in leadership. You've made this incredible transformation and you've done it with great aplomb, meaning fantastically well. So I never used that word actually. But tell me, Dr. Barsoom, tell us a little bit about what advice would you give to emerging leaders, leaders, to physicians, particularly physician leaders, trying to have satisfying careers as professionals, as leaders. How do you look at that?
- [19:50]
A
Yeah, look, I think it's a few things. I think that there are different reasons to go into kind of leadership roles, right? If, if the reason is because it makes you feel really good about yourself, and it's kind of a feather in your cap. I don't want this to sound cliche, but that's obviously the wrong reason, right? If you want a leadership role because you believe that you can make your organization better, or you can make sure that patients get better care, then by all means, that's what you ought to do. And I think whether we like it or not, by definition, once you have a medical degree, you're kind of seen as a leader already. So whether you're, you know, a sole practitioner running your practice, I mean, essentially you're the leader of that practice, right? Patients that come and see you see you as the leader of their health care. Now, it's clearly a partnership, but they see you as the leader of that healthcare partnership. So I think it's important to recognize that whether you're leading a team of three or four, or whether you're leading, you know, a team of 80,000, you know, if you're the CEO of the Mayo Clinic or the Cleveland Clinic, or whether you're leading a team of hundreds of thousands, if you're the CEO of. Of Common Spirit Health, right. You can still play a really meaningful role. And as a clinician, you have a very real voice that people listen to. So be thoughtful of how you choose to use that voice if it is for the improvement of the lives of our patients, those who put their trust in us. That's very, very different than it's because you want to see your name up in lights. And I think if you're really honest with yourself about the reason that you want to play a leadership role, I think you will find that it is a lot more satisfying.
- [21:51]
B
But I think that's so important. I assume that at least, certainly a couple times in my career, and, you know, I've been in spots where I thought it was the right thing to do versus really wanting to do it and thinking that I can contribute to it. And what I found was, and is that if you're in a role that sounds right, but it's not really where you think you could really contribute greatly, then you're often doing yourself and your organization a disservice. And I think that aligns well with what you're saying about, you know, can you really make a difference, or do you want to do it just because you want to do it? And they could be two different things.
- [22:35]
A
Yeah, look, I think that's 100% right. Look, a good example that I'll share with you very, very directly was the insight that I had and it took me time, I think, really to build this up. Personally, when I made the decision to leave Cleveland Clinic, Florida as the CEO, I mean, I had a CEO title and I stepped into a president role instead of another CEO title. And at that time I was getting offers and opportunities all around the country to lead other health care systems. And my thoughts around that were, as a CEO, you should have a pretty good understanding of finance, legal compliance, right? All the things that are important for a CEO to be successful with. And it was evident to me that in a place like Cleveland Clinic, we had an incredible finance department that essentially took care of all things financial for us. So I didn't really need to understand things like what does it take if you're going to go out and sell hundred year bonds for Cleveland Clinic? Which, by the way, we did. But I didn't have the knowledge base that most corporate CEOs would have around that. Look, I could read a P and L, I could understand a P and L statement. I certainly understood what our assets were, what depreciation was and things like that. But I didn't have the financial background that I thought I would need to really kind of take the reins of a company like a Hopko. And for that reason, I passed up other CEO jobs and instead took kind of a number two job as the President, Chief Transformation Officer at Hopco. Now, over the last five years, what I've learned about the financial implications of decisions that we make is incredible. And again, keep in mind, when you're at a Mayo Clinic or a Harvard or a Cleveland Clinic and you're sitting on a $7 billion endowment or a $10 billion endowment that is spitting off literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars every year in income, you can afford to make mistakes. When you are in a private equity backed large startup, you can't really afford to make lots of financial mistakes because there is no big pot of money kind of waiting there to make up for your operational losses. So those are things that I've learned in the last five years that I think make me a much stronger leader today than I was five years ago. And I think it takes that insight. For folks, regardless of what kind of a leader you are, you're going to have strengths and weaknesses. So figure out what your weaknesses are and put yourself in a position to strengthen those areas instead of just to focus on all of your strengths or the strengths that people perceive you to have. I think that's kind of an important piece of advice for folks and it's not necessarily the easiest piece of advice to take, but I think it's an important piece of advice if you really want to make a meaningful contribution to an organization.
- [26:00]
B
Thank you very, very much. I'm going to ask you one question or comment there. I think that just is this advice about. You were CEO of Cleveland Clinic Florida and he had plenty of opportunities to be CEO of another company or another situation or another health system, but chose to take the number two spot here. Talk about that piece of advice because that's sort of a lateral move, obviously a thoughtful, intelligent, brilliant move. And so many people get this horrible advice that they've got to go for the next highest salary, they've got to go to the next highest position, that they can't take lateral steps that somehow or another that's a negative. Talk about this concept of what you're really trying to do is grow as a leader. If you grow as a leader and do great work, then. And you're really doing great work. Opportunities tend to evolve over time when you're making the right contribution. Talk about that versus some of the standard advice that people get about you got to take the bigger sale or you got to take the bigger title because that's such a bad advice often.
- [27:03]
A
Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. Look, I mean, I wish I could tell you that from a financial perspective this was a lateral move. I took a major pay cut to come to Hopco. As you know, in the private equity backed world, right, you're, you're usually paid more in equity and profit units or stock options than you are in salary. So from a salary perspective, I took a pretty major pay cut. Now I more than made up for it in terms of equity and stock options and whatnot, which has worked out, I think pretty well. But there's clearly a risk there. I mean, that's a very calculated decision to make. As I kind of looked at things, Scott, my feeling was it would be hard to go from a Cleveland Clinic, even though, I mean, obviously I was the CEO of Cleveland Clinic Florida, not the Cleveland Clinic health system. But the brand is still an incredibly strong brand. Whether you're in Florida, whether you're in Abu Dhabi, in London, in Cleveland, the brand is great. And I kept thinking, am I really going to leave this premier brand to take a more senior kind of CEO role? It may be a bigger healthcare system, but a, but a healthcare system that doesn't have this cache. Maybe kind of a B plus or an A minus rated healthcare system as opposed to an A rated healthcare system. Right. I Mean, that was kind of my sense and it just didn't make sense to me. The other thing I looked at is there are 5,000 hospital CEOs around the United States today. Am I really differentiating myself that much? So I kind of did an inventory of the things that I felt that I was good at. Right. I'm kind of an innovative guy. I have a lot of patents. I, you know, I'm very operationally minded. I love growing things. I'm a strategically minded individual. And a lot of things that I learned at Cleveland Clinic, like corporate governance, corporate culture, those were things that I thought I could really apply in a role, like my role at Hopco. So again, kind of looking at where my strengths were and where I could be better made me feel like this is kind of the right move for me for this next stage in my life. If I had just left Cleveland Clinic to become the CEO of a large regional health care system, I'm not sure that I really would have grown very much as a leader, to be perfectly candid with you. So this move has helped me grow a tremendous amount. And again, to be clear, I don't know that that's the right decision for everybody. Right. I mean, I think for, for many people, you know, being a healthcare system CEO somewhere else would be a fantastic opportunity. I have friends that I see in large health care systems, you know, like Common Spirit, like, like Ascension, that are continuing to grow in those organizations and they are absolutely doing an amazing job. I mean, they are making a real impact and, and, and you know, they're probably, you know, more well rounded than I was five years ago, to be perfectly candid. So I think again, you have to really take this inventory of yourself to ensure that it's the right decision for you. It may not be the right decision for somebody else, but is it the right decision for you? And I think that takes a level of experience and to some degree, some level of introspection and maturity to be able to, to say maybe some folks would see this as a lateral move, but for me I actually see it as a massive promotion because I'm going to get to delve into something that I will never have the opportunity to do if I stay where I am. And that's kind of what drove me.
- [30:52]
B
I think there's so much there because one part of professional life is keeping it interesting. But I love the self awareness. I mean this concept that, look, if I go to a next tier health system, a mid sized health system, which might be just fantastic, there are a couple Thousand people doing that. And how can I really be a game changer at another health system? And maybe you certainly could be, certainly could incrementally greatly improve another health system someplace. But, but there's, there's lots of mid sized health systems and great midsize health systems where here, coming to Hopco, you were sort of, in some ways one of a kind in the largest orthopedic sort of growth practice, muscle skeletal practice in the country and a chance to be a very different animal. And I think that takes a tremendous amount of self awareness to be able to say strategically, this sounds like a more interesting choice for me to make an impact than doing this, which would be the natural stepping off point for many people that were running one of the divisions of Cleveland Clinic. I think just a fascinating amount of self awareness.
- [32:02]
A
No, you know, I appreciate that you said, and the other thing I'll tell you very candidly is I think today, if I ever decided, you know, I want to go back to running a healthcare system again, I think I would be a significantly better leader today as a healthcare system CEO than I would have been five years ago because of the financial acumen that I've learned, the strategic planning that I've learned for a rapidly growing business. I mean, look, let's face it, right? I mean, most healthcare systems are not, quote, rapidly growing unless they're growing through mergers and acquisitions. Hopco is a rapidly growing company organically and through M and A. That organic growth is really missing in most healthcare systems. And it's because, as you know, most healthcare systems operate on razor thin margins. So unless you've got a huge endowment that's spinning off enormous amounts of money, you have to be really, really thoughtful about your growth. And everybody seems to think, you know, well, you know, the one tool we've got is just see more patients, see more patients, see more patients. You know, to some degree that clearly works, but you can also kind of manage your systems more efficiently and more effectively. You know, Toby Cosgrove used to always talk about top of licensure care, right? Is your advanced practice provider essentially acting as a really expensive scribe or are they seeing patients independently? I can tell you, when I was at Cleveland Clinic, I worked with my PA in Cleveland, a guy named Mike Dombrowski. Patients prefer to see Mike over me. He's the sweetest, nicest guy and they loved meeting him. I like to think I'm a sweet, nice guy, but he's honestly sweeter and nicer. So patients love to see him. There's kind of this sense that many of us have as doctors, that the traditional way of delivering healthcare is the only way of delivering health care. I'm the doctor, people want to see me. Yes, sometimes they do. But is that really the best use of your time, of your organization's time, of this patient's time, or can we provide higher quality care for a lower cost for them in a different environment that allows you as the doctor to be working at your top of licensure? So these are the kind of things that I think I've gotten better and better at understanding through this role because we have to, I mean, candidly, you have to as a large startup. And again, we're not really a startup anymore. I mean, we're a couple billion dollar company. But as a company that is still privately held and the size that we are, you have got to be really, really thoughtful about resource utilization, cost of capital, because you just don't have the ability to make bad decisions. Right. Very, very few companies, if I remember correctly, you probably know this better than I do, Scott. I think, I think it's like 0.00006% of startup companies become $1 billion business. HFCO is one of those companies. It has made it to that. Right. It's a unicorn. And it's a unicorn, I would say, because David Jakobsky, who's the founder, has had this unrelenting vision and mission. And I don't know if you know this, but David is an ex mixed martial artist. He has this crazy drive around push, push, push, push, push. Don't take your eye off the prize. He's almost kind of like Elon Musk in some ways in terms of this insane focus that he has. And it's honestly, it's kind of contagious. And you've got this executive team and group of caregivers there that are all, I think equally devoted to being great at what we do and find meaning and purpose in this greater calling of driving higher quality, lower cost care in the musculoskeletal space. So people are just driven to be great at this. And I think it's really exciting.
- [36:23]
B
No, it's literally a remarkable story. And your point on David is that the amount of drive it takes to move a company from a startup to a billion dollars valuation, revenues, whatever it is, takes incredible drive. And you're right, they call them a unicorn for a reason. But the relentless drive and focus is, and the right strategy, it's really an amazing thing. And then building the right teams. Dr. Bersoom, what a great pleasure to visit with you today on the Becker's Healthcare podcast. I know we kept you longer than I expected. Thank you so much for your time and it is really remarkable to visit with you. So thank you very, very much.
- [36:59]
A
Scott, let me tell you, it is absolutely my pleasure. And you know, just to take a moment just to congratulate you on the great work that you're doing, you know, with Beckers. I always love, love getting my emails and seeing what's going on and attending your meetings around the country and getting to speak at them. It really is an honor and a pleasure to be able to chat with you today.
- [37:22]
B
Thank you so much.