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Becker’s Healthcare Podcast
Tackling Medical Misinformation with Ashley Alker, MD, M.Sc., Emergency Medicine Physician and Author
00:20:50
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to the Beckers Healthcare Podcast. I'm Molly Gamble with Beckers and today I'm sitting down with Dr. Ashley Alker. Dr. Alker is an emergency medicine physician and author. Dr. Alker, it's really great to be joined by you today. I'm looking forward to learning from you in our conversation.
- [00:14]
B
Thanks so much for having me, Molly.
- [00:16]
A
You have a really interesting career and we're going to start talking about Meaningful Media. This is a nonprofit that you founded that looks to connect the public health experts out there with different creators to fight medical misinformation, which has just been such an intensifying problem really ever since COVID 19. Let's talk about the origins of this idea. What sparked the idea of Meaningful Media for you and what kind of impact are you looking to have in the stories that you're telling?
- [00:48]
B
Yeah, no problem. This is a great place to start. So what sparked the idea was actually the pandemic and also created the necessity, I think, so that the amount of life altering medical misinformation that's out there, especially in times of crisis, is overwhelming. So it's really hard for people to sift through this information and find the truths. And AI is making this even more confusing. I could see how far during the pandemic we were behind the ball on public health communication practices. So that's kind of where I decided, you know, to start Meaningful Media is I saw a gap in the way we were educating the public and an opportunity to help. The people creating the messaging I find often are not and successful in creating the messaging is, are often not the people who have necessarily the health care background. You know, they're people who are influencers or have a lot of followers or sometimes just people who find new sensationalized information. So these aren't necessarily the people that can dig through the information and find the truth. It's not where you should be getting your health information from. And on top of that, MIT did a study on this. But lies are very captivating and this is just a universal truth. And especially when the truth is we don't know, that's not very helpful. And people don't, you know, that's not going to get you to click. So I, the study MIT looked at basically showed that misinformation online, specifically on what was on Twitter, I believe travels six times faster, faster than any factual news. So, you know, you're fighting an uphill battle. And it's a role that I enjoyed in the past in a more like, you know, less dire time before the pandemic I, you know, did a lot of stuff for television and film. I did a lot of article writing for newspapers and working with very various sects of the TED organization. But you know, this was different. So I did get on social media during the pandemic and tried to help fight information in online. But to be honest with you, I just, I really just like social media. So it's not something that I enjoyed doing. But in 2022 I, you know, found something that I do really enjoy doing that could help the situation and that was creating Meaningful Media, which is basically a non profit organization that connects the creators with the public health experts in order to develop a scientifically accurate message. So it's just an opportunity to get the right information out there and to establish those relationships. The, you know, organization also tries to promote the people doing it right. So those are, you know, online health influencers that are fighting misinformation as well as helping connect creators. They be novelists or journalists, screenwriters, artists with responsible and educated information through health professionals. And then lastly, as far as like my, my role in TV and film, I, you know, it's probably had a modest effect. I'm one person and it wasn't a full time job. But I think that you know, with something like meaningful media across multiple mediums, with multiple different people in multiple different fields fighting misinformation, I think that is much more likely to be impactful.
- [04:05]
A
I mean, what a precise and very clear need for this company to be advising the creators with accurate medical information to ensure that this misinformation isn't furthered. And as you're Talking about this, Dr. Alker, I mean, I think medical misinformation, sometimes it seems as though it's a really complicated thing. I think you just hit on a few reasons it can be so nefarious. Number one, it's oversimplification. There's just no nuance. I remember on the journalism side, like headlines about studies have always been really tricky that medical misinformation is like that times 10. In many ways there's this captivation. It's really easy to repeat and to further. Are there any other nuances when it comes to misinformation that you think our listeners should keep in mind? Because sometimes it can seem like it's just a matter of knowing better. I find that it's a way bigger social phenomenon than that.
- [04:56]
B
Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with you. It's a big problem because it's so nuanced and I think that it's getting even More dangerous with AI and deep fakes. And, you know, it basically is an issue that we've had for a long time. But when you were talking about, you know, what makeup to you and clothing brands, it wasn't as big of a deal. But when you're talking about health information, this is a difference between life and death in some situations. So it becomes something that is very important and needs to be, you know, looked at by the people who, you know, should be creating health information are universities, our governmental organizations. You know, those types of places is where this information should be coming from. Because they have a responsibility and they have kind, you know, as trusted organizations and as people that are giving out health information officially, they have a responsibility. So, you know, one of the things I always think about is when you're online and some influencer tells you to take, you know, hydroxychloroquine for Covid or whatever it might be, that person has very little responsibility in telling you truth or lies. They can, you know, repost something and be like, well, I didn't know a doctor online who's credentialed and this has happened before, giving you misinformation. They have a responsibility there and can, can be, you know, found guilty of a crime if someone, you know, gets hurt from that information. There's some, there's some culpability. There is my point. So not that I think anyone should be getting their health on the Internet. I think it's a very dangerous place to get health information and everyone should do their best to try in a very difficult system. I understand that. But, you know, do their best to try to get a public, public health professional, in most cases a primary care doctor who they can trust, where they can get their information from. You know, if you are going to look for something online, I think that's one of the ways to the. The very first tier of how to screen is, you know, who is this person? What are they talking about? What is their expertise? You know, they, they teach you this stuff in public health when you're reviewing articles or in medicine when you're reviewing articles. It's one of the like very first kind of easy things you can look at.
- [07:08]
A
Sure, sure. Thanks for appreciating the stakes of this is really important and meaningful media. It sounds like in many ways it solves a distinct need, but it also sounds like it's been a labor of love for you. But you've consulted on some pretty big shows, Handmaid's Tale, Station 19, the AFT. Can you share more about who you've advised. And then I think in addition to that, any behind the scenes moments of this work that maybe you can share with our listeners that have really stuck with you.
- [07:37]
B
Yeah, I mean, I just feel grateful and lucky that producers and screenwriters and actors, anyone who invests the time and effort to get the medicine right, I'm very grateful for these people because they have a lot of power. And I think that it's easy when you're an entertainer sometimes to ignore that because it's not technically your job. So the people that I've advised, it's, you know, it's a long list of people, but there. And a lot of these people, maybe you wouldn't necessarily recognize their names because they're screenwriters or producers. So people in, you know, Hollywood might know who they are, but regardless of, you know, how celebrated the name might be, they're all really special individuals who understand, you know, the. Both the responsibility and the opportunity that they have to use television and film for passive education. One person that I worked with on a show, the Purge, which doesn't seem like a medical though, but that's the other thing is that most people are like, oh, have you worked on, you know, you know, this medical show? And most of the things that I worked on in the past actually weren't medical shows. It was just medical components of, you know, television shows or films. But anyways, I worked with Derek Luke on that project, and he was, you know, phenomenal and obviously a great actor who really cared about the role and his depiction of an emergency medicine physician. I got to work with J.J. abrams, which was, you know, mind blowing, and he's obviously a genius. And in that same team was Kira Snider and Far Sharat, who were both like you, just amazing people. So, you know, I'm just honored to be able to have these conversations with these people who have clearly understood their opportunity to kind of help move public health forward because, you know, most people watch tv and so it's a great opportunity to, you know, get some passive education in. If you see, they've actually done studies on this that if you see CPR done correctly on television, you're more likely to do it accurately. You know, everyone, including the obviously prefers we take CPR classes. You know, the general public, physicians, hopefully all know how to do cpr. But my point being is that it's a passive education opportunity. And then, you know, that's also. I think we kind of ignore the power of stories often. And that's how, you know, we pass down a lot of Health information. And so television has both, like, a responsibility and an opportunity to do that. You know, how many times have you heard patients tell you things that you're like, no, that's just on television. Patients are always like, oh, can my kid sleep after, you know, his mild concussion, he got hit in the head with a ball. I'm like, yes, thank you, 90s television for telling everyone you can't sleep after a concussion. You need to sleep. And that probably comes from, like, you know, Q2 hour neuro checks with somebody with like, inter parenchymal hemorrhage that's in the icu. It comes from a place of science, but it's been misused. And so those are the types of opportunities we have.
- [10:29]
A
Love that when you're talking about storytelling, I mean, you transcend different mediums because you also have a book, 99 Ways to Die, which is quite the title. And this is a book that comes from your time in the er. It started off, if I'm correct, as journal entries. Right. And you start reflecting and recording some of these observations that you were having practicing in the er. Describe the book for us and what it's about and what made you want to share these stories with an audience.
- [10:58]
B
Yeah, I mean, the book is. There are stories in the book, but I think it's balanced, a balance between stories and information and for the, you know, medical professionals. I think that maybe parts of the book that are more interesting are the social, historical, political components of diseases, aside from, you know, does the science, you know, a lot of doctors will know the science already. This book was written for everyone to understand and not just for medical professionals. But I think there is an interesting opportunity in this book to connect with my, you know, fellow physicians and medical professionals in the emergency department, but also in a lot of other fields, because, you know, there's certain things in medicine that are kind of shared experiences. And so those things are in this book. And I do use stories that were based on things that have happened, but of course, you know, so much has been changed to protect patient identity that, you know, at this point, the story is no longer the, you know, the tortoise and the hare, it's the sloth and the roadrunner. But the message is the same in the story, and. And that is slow and steady wins the race. So the point being is that the stories were an important way to allow people to remember the information. You know, an example that I always use that I think is really poignant is Alexander. Alexander Hamilton wrote 51 of the 85 Federalist Papers, but nobody knew that or remembered that. Lin Manuel created this captivating musical about it. And now everyone can tell you where Hamilton was born, his political affiliations, his contributions to the Constitution, his wife's name, complete biography. Right. And that's the genius of art, is that we can use things like storytelling to really create something that people can remember, even though maybe it's not something that they studied for 15 years.
- [12:50]
A
And, you know, speaking of storytelling, one other format of storytelling that you have mastered is your book, 99 Ways to Die, a title that is surely a standout if I were to come across it on the shelves. Ashley, can you talk about this a little bit? From my understanding, it started off as journal entries from your time practicing in the er. What are those journal entries? What is the book about? And then what made you want to share these stories publicly?
- [13:19]
B
So the book is kind of a collection of stories and then also some, you know, nonfiction information. It's described as an illuminating, hilarious, and practical guide to 99 of the most terrifying ways to die and how to avoid them. But I think the book also kind of takes a different perspective by looking at the social and historical aspects of diseases and covers them in a very specific way. Everything from leprosy to serial killers, and does it in very succinct chapters, so you can kind of pick it up, put it down. And it's written for, you know, the mentality of today, which is, you know, the 15 second news cycle. So I tried to use all of the things and communication skills. I've learned to write something that is, you know, both engaging, captivating, and really accessible. But I think that people in public health and people in different aspects of medicine will also find it, you know, really interesting because there are those social, historical aspects of the diseases, and, you know, there are diseases and things in there that we don't deal with a lot like leprosy.
- [14:19]
A
I'm measuring for those of us who didn't go to medical school, I think the historical piece of those different conditions or diseases or causes of mortality sometimes aren't always the most top of mind for anyone.
- [14:30]
B
Yeah. And I think there's. There's a lot of historical pieces that would interest a lot of people and that we can learn from. For instance, with leprosy, people often don't realize that it was actually fairly recently that the last leprosy colony in the United States closed, which was in Hawaii, and that, you know, these colonies created their own, you know, types of ledger. They had their own coins, they had their own because they were cut off from society. They basically created their own societies. So these were, you know, microcosms with, in, you know, our culture. So it was a very interesting subculture. And, and that's something that I talk about in the book and something that I think happens in the world around us that we don't even know. A lot of people that I've spoken to are like, oh, I didn't know that leprosy exists anymore. And it exists in, you know, something like 120 countries still. So this is something that is still going on.
- [15:19]
A
Very much so. I'm. I'm one other person that wasn't aware of that. So thanks for expanding on that one example. And a big part of Art, which I think you certainly have thoughts on, is humor. And there's so much about health care and medicine that is just humorless. There's not much humor to be found. But in the ER particularly, there's this perspective where you talk about humor as a survival tool. That's a really powerful perspective. How do you lean on humor or view humor in your communications toolkit to really help. Help both you, but also your patients in these high stress situations? And then also, is it a tool when you're educating people about serious health topics?
- [16:02]
B
Yeah, I think that's a really good way to think about it is that humor can be something that you use as a tool to educate. And I think that it's a really important tool because it's very, you know, difficult when your fight or flight kicks in and you're pumping adrenaline through your veins and arteries to learn something. It's difficult to do simple math at that time, let alone, you know, learn about a new complicated disease process that could be killing you. So I often use humor in my own life to deal with those types of situations. And for patients, I really follow their lead, so I use what works for them. But in the emergency department, when everything feels like it's on fire in the world around you and we're just trying to get through things together, I found that a lot of my patients kind of approach some things, you know, some, some types of emergencies with humor. I mean, patients, they're brave and thoughtful and often funny, and it's not infrequent that patients will tell me, you know, jokes, and sometimes they're not very good. But I appreciate it anyways because it's a thought that counts. But also it's. It's a coping mechanism that we in the emergency department really relate to, you know, and a lot of times, you know, not every emergency is a heart attack or a stroke or you know, an aortic dissection or something where we're like, okay, there's no time for, there's no time for talking, let alone jokes. But you know, there are people who come in with terminal diseases or chronic pain or diagnoses that we just cannot figure out. And medicine hasn't given them answers yet. And sometimes on, on really bad days, humor is all these people have, you know, so it depends on the patient, obviously. But if, you know, if we get lucky and we both find something funny or ironic or whatever it is, I often find myself laughing with patients about hard things that sometimes we just can't fix.
- [17:49]
A
Yeah. And it's such a powerful way to connect with people, especially if there's power differentials or you're in one position as a physician and they're obviously not. So I think there's just a lot of connective tissue can be built through humor too, it sounds like. And finally, as we wind down here, I wanted to think about the physicians and young physicians who are listening. Dr. Alker. They might hear you about all these creative and communication focused pursuits in addition to your background in medicine and your practice in medicine and be interested in getting involved. Whether it's writing, media, advising. What guidance would you share with them about using storytelling as a way to further trust and then maybe even save lives beyond hospital walls? And any first hand lessons you could share with listeners who listening to what you're saying and they're very inspired and considering similar pursuits.
- [18:45]
B
Yeah, of course I, you know, there's, there's a million opportunities out there. Obviously there's always opportunities to write online, get involved op eds. There are many programs. If you're, you know, just starting out and you don't feel like you have the skills. There's communication programs specifically for physicians that sometimes at schools of public health now. So there, there are educational opportunities and then for those that like they're ready, there's a lot of opportunities to become kind of a voice in public health in your community. And then Additionally, my meaningful media.org you can always go to my website online for my nonprofit and sign up there and I will try and connect you with anybody who writes in, who's looking for somebody in your specialty and field. And then what you do with that, it's kind of up to you. And, and you know, the creator you're connected to. And then, you know, just try it, try storytelling. You never know, you know, what lives you might save with the information that you have even with your patients on the day to day. I sometimes use analogies and stories to teach my patients because it's kind of like you said, it can be an equalizing thing. It shows that you understand, you know, the areas that might be more difficult for them to understand. And it might even let them share different things with you and kind of make different connections and open up about things that they might not understand. So it doesn't have to be done in a way that's as public as, you know, working for television or writing an article or doing a podcast. It can, it can be something that you use in your day to day with your patients.
- [20:22]
A
Excellent. Well, Dr. Ashley Alker again, listeners. Dr. Alker is emergency medicine physician and authority. The book is 99 Ways to Die. And the nonprofit organization Advising Creators is meaningful media. Dr. Alker, thank you so much for being our guest on the Beckers Healthcare podcast. A lot of interesting work you're heading up and I wish you continued success.
- [20:43]
B
Thank you so much. And I hope that people get out there to check out the book and I hope they really enjoy it.