← Becoming UnDone
Becoming UnDone
149 | Caught in the Spotlight: Secrets of a Celebrity Business Manager with Jonathan Schwartz
00:53:14
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- [00:04]
A
This is becoming undone.
- [00:12]
B
And a few years later, many Years later, in 2010, I was coaching my kids youth sports teams, and the assistant coach said, hey, do you want to gamble on sports? I said, sure. There were small incremental bets, but by the end of that gambling week, it became a large sum of money. And I came up with another genius idea of let me borrow money from Alanis and I'll just pay her back next week. Borrowing in translation means stealing and embezzling. Unfortunately, that led to a progressive illness, and that led to me gambling every day for six years. I mean, when I was in my active addiction every day for six years, I couldn't sleep. I was in absolute hell. I didn't want to live. I defaulted to starting to use cocaine. I wasn't emotionally regulated. I wasn't emotionally mature. I was in a dark place. And again, no excuse. That's just how my mindset was. Ultimately, my higher power sent me a signal and he said, you need to go to addiction studies school, get your kdac, and then I want you to go to grad school and become a marriage and family therapist with an emphasis in addiction and trauma so that people don't make the same mistakes that I made. And so I'm proud that that was my journey and has been my journey, and I'm proud of being that therapist today. My name is Jonathan Schwartz, and I am Undone.
- [01:32]
A
Hey, friend. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. I'm Toby Brooks, a speaker, author, professor, and performance scientist. I've spent much of the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach in the professional collegiate and high school sports settings. And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achiever apartments. Now, failures that can suck in the moment can end up being exactly the push we needed to propel us on our paths to success. Each week on Becoming Undone, I invite a new guest to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize this show is entirely separate from my role at Baylor University, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. You know, some stories don't just challenge our assumptions. They confront us and they force us to face the reality. Sometimes the repercussions of the things that we've done. Today's Guest lived at the highest level of success, trust and access. He advised global icons, he managed fortunes. He was inside rooms most people will never see. Then slowly, quietly, but relentlessly, everything around him unravels. This is not a story about celebrity. It's a story about addiction, about denial, about ego, and about what happens when the mask finally comes off. My guest today is Jonathan Schwartz, a former top tier entertainment business manager whose compulsive gambling and addiction not only cost him his career, but his reputation and ultimately his freedom. After embezzling millions from his A list celebrity clients, including some of the most recognizable artists on the planet, Jonathan was sentenced to six years in federal prison. But this episode isn't just about crime. It's about the collapse that happened before it and most importantly, the rebuilding that's occurred after it. In our conversation, Jonathan takes us inside the psychology of addiction, the terror of living a double life, and the moment when being caught became the thing that saved his life. We talk about shame, accountability, prison recovery, and the long road of becoming someone new when you can never go back to who you were. A quick note for the listener. Today's episode includes a candid discussion of addiction, suicidal ideation, incarceration and personal trauma. While the conversation is honest and ultimately hopeful, it can be heavy for some listeners. So take care of yourself and listen when and how is right for you. This is a conversation about what it means to truly take responsibility, not just with words, but with a life rebuilt one right, next, decision at a time. If you've ever wondered how someone falls this far, if you've ever lived with a secret you were terrified to expose, or if you've ever believed your worst chapter disqualified you from purpose. This episode's for you. This is Becoming Undone. And this is episode 149 with Jonathan Schwartz. Greetings and welcome back. Becoming Undone is a podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. My name is Toby Brooks, and each week I bring you a high achiever who's figured out how to transform from falling apart to falling into place. And today's guest, his journey reads like a Hollywood script, except this one comes from real life. Jonathan Todd Schwartz has joined us. A man who's walked through the fire, faced the consequences of his choices, and emerge with a mission larger than fame and fortune. Jonathan, thanks so much for joining me today.
- [05:10]
B
Thank you. Quite the introduction.
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A
Yeah, well, I was familiar with your story without realizing I was familiar with the story. I remember reading about Alanis Morissette's manager and all the things that went along with that at the time. But before we get there, one of the common things in this show we talk about is sometimes the adversity or the setback is, you know, it's magnified because of the journey ahead of time. And so I guess I always start at the beginning. What did you want to be growing up and why as a kid?
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B
I mean, in a perfect world, I would have been a major league baseball player, but clearly I was not a. It's not a perfect world, and I'm certainly wasn't. I didn't have the credentials or the skill sets to do that. Die hard New York Yankee fan, born and raised in upstate New York. Other than that, I knew I was destined to become a CPA. I had seven cousins in the family that are CPAs or worse CPAs, and that was the only subject that I was really interested in. In school. I wasn't a great academia student in high school, college. It wasn't until I went to grad school to transition to my current career where I really loved knowledge, loved learning, and loved studying. But that's. I knew I was destined to be a cpa and in particular as entertainment business manager, because one of those seven cousins was in the music business and asked me to come work for him. Not on my timeline, but when he thought I was ready.
- [06:36]
A
Yeah, well, I think that's a great segue into. My next question is going from little league dreams of being a big leaguer to starting to carve out a niche and starting to understand how perhaps love of finance could translate over. So talk me through how you got to what most would have considered the top of your industry and how you felt when you eventually got there.
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B
So first started when I was given the opportunity to actually be invited to come work for my cousin. He had me, really. I got paid very little money at that point in my life, but I was learning from a person whom at that time I respected and viewed as a mentor. He said, go into the mailroom, pull out client files, read everything you can read, ask questions. Don't profess to know something when you don't know something. And I didn't want nepotism associated with me. So I was the first one in, the last one to leave. And I read those files from page one to the last page and I just was a sponge. And that's what I needed to be because I worked for a financial in the financial district of San Francisco for about three and a half plus years honing my analytical skills. And that gave me a foundation to Accept his invitation to come there. And now it's time to learn about music publishing, music touring, risk management, dealing with athletes, dealing with actors and actresses. And although unfortunately in the industry one can call themselves a business manager without having a professional designation. So I feel like it really helped me to have those three initials next to me, cpa. I think that anyone looking for a business manager should find someone who has those professional designations because, you know, we're responsible as business managers for their entire financial life, personally and professionally.
- [08:28]
A
What Jonathan is suggesting here is increased professional regulation for entertainment business managers. Something that just didn't exist when he first entered the specialty. I did a quick look. Today there are a number of college programs at both the undergrad and graduate levels for entertainment industry business management. But in most jurisdictions it remains an unlicensed profession. And as a result, anyone with a business card and enough sales skill to convince someone else that they can do the job can hold themselves out to be a business manager. While that alone is cause for concern, many do so with virtually no oversight or accountability, even to other people working in their own offices. As a result, that temptation to play it a little fast and loose with the books and with someone else's money, especially with little to no outside or third party accountability, is a situation that is rife for abuse. When you also consider the seven and eight figure dollar amounts that the A list celebrity business managers have access to, it can be a recipe for disaster. Short term, borrowing from an account to cover a gambling debt he was sure he could win back and more became a compounding problem, worsened all the more with that growing drug dependency. For Jonathan, the temptation proved too strong as he found himself immersed in an ever worsening gambling addiction and substance use disorder, ultimately paving the way on his path of self destruction.
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B
One thing that we chose not to do, but other business managers do is we outsource asset management. You know, because we have already a lot of responsibilities as business managers in the client's lives. And we believe that the portfolio, asset management of a client's portfolio is a full time job in and of itself. So we would refer them to like three people, top people in the industry that let them make the decision. And then we, we're sort of like the quarterback that goes to those meetings and is communicating often with their asset manager. So I enjoyed, I enjoyed it very much at that time.
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A
Yeah, so you were with some top names in industry, in, in the entertainment industry. And growing a portfolio like that takes time as you were involved in the growing and the scaling of your business Talk to me about how addiction and gambling started to make its way into your life. Did you see red flags or warning signs early on that that might have alerted you to the fact that this might be something that I need to get under control?
- [11:02]
B
Yeah. Before I address that, don't answer one of the questions you asked earlier, which is like, how was I able to get a level clients? Well, I didn't start out with a level client. So after I left my cousin's firm and joined another firm to really beautiful practice with great clients. And I think what helped me was I got a break with a band called Linkin Park. They were looking for business management in 2000, before hybrid theory, their first album was released, and they were interviewing half a dozen plus business managers. And at the time, I wasn't a partner of the firm, but one of the partners, who, may he rest in peace, Michael Oppenheim, whom was my favorite partner and one who absolutely was my mentor and I love dearly, passed away a couple years ago. But he invited me into the meeting, and they liked the fact the band liked the fact that they had this older guy, more seasoned than I was at that time, and a younger guy without the gray hair that I have now. That was a nice combination. And so they retained our. Us, our firm, and I became the lead partner. And ultimately their expectations helped me become a better business manager because I wanted to exceed their expectations. They were very businesslike, individually and collectively. I thought when I was getting into the entertainment space, I was going to be involved in the sex, drugs, and rock and roll era. But I think Linkin park and those that followed Linkin park showed their peers that it's not about sex, drugs, and rock and roll. It's about treating your music, your creativity, and whatever else you do professionally as a business. And so that's what I learned a lot from Linkin Park. And once the outer world saw the success that Linkin park was having, even those within the entertainment space, lawyers, agents, and managers, they started calling me and asking if I could take on another client and another client. And so that was my lucky break. I. Going back to your most recent question, addiction. There were signs. Yes. In college, I decided, you know, I grew up poor, and I decided that I wasn't able to socialize with my fraternity brothers. I just didn't have the financial means. And so I had this genius idea, as I call it in quotes, that I'll just ask one of my fraternity brother if he'll. He wants to be bookies with me, and let's Go, let's target the Greek system. And well, that was a terrible mistake because we lost $10,000 in two weeks as bookies. Bookies don't lose because they know how to, you know, massage, if you will. Each side of the equation, whether it's on this team or that team, they know they're getting 10% if they equalize it. We didn't think that way. We were naive and we just went full throttle. And unfortunately, that was the first entree for me into gambling. My half of that $10,000, $5,000 I could not afford to pay. So I abandoned my fraternity brother, who was left to pay my share as well as his. And that was a sign of a poor behavioral pattern that I also adopted.
- [13:58]
A
I'll be honest, there's something about the way Jonathan is able to recount his first foray into gambling and subsequently his first big loss with such a matter of factness and sterility that's a little jarring for me at this time in his life. 5k for a college kid is a big hit. And when Jonathan chooses to abandon someone he had counted as a friend and leave him to foot the entire 10k debt, it is a glaring warning sign of his cold indifference and some narcissistic behavior in full self preservation mode. And this is before he has access to billions of dollars and a costly cocaine habit. So with time, this simmering warning sign would explode into a growing dependency that would threaten his entire life and ultimately change it forever.
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B
All of which, of course, I'm not proud of. But that's just the reality of my story. And so after that, I moved to San Francisco and finished school up in San Francisco State. At that point I was at a school called SUNY Albany State University of New York at Albany, who had a great accounting program. And then there was one other time. So when I started working for my cousin, his partner asked if I wanted to place a bet and I said sure. I lost $3,000. And again, that's a lot of money for me, both 5,000 and 3,000. I'm still a young adult trying to build my own professional career. And he was kind enough to pay for it because he knew I didn't have it. And so those two were major signals that maybe, you know, I, I can become a compulsive gambler. And a few years later, many Years later, in 2010, I was coaching my kids youth sports teams and the assistant coach said, hey, do you want to gamble on sports? I said, sure. There were small incremental bets, but by the end of that gambling week, it became a large sum of money. And I came up with another genius idea of let me borrow money from Alanis and I'll just pay her back next week. Borrowing in translation means stealing and embezzling. Because unfortunately, the mindset of a compulsive gambler at this time I became a compulsive gambler is one of grandiosity, right? Not living in reality, believing that I can win that money back in one day, one bet, and then Lannis won't know, and then I don't even have to go and target a few other of my many clients. And unfortunately, that led to progressive illness, and that led to me gamb every day for six years on sports, you know, taking a lot of money from a handful of clients whom obviously I hurt very much. They all were paid back, but it doesn't mean that what I did wrong is right. So I'm glad that they got paid back and I'm glad that I have the opportunity today to make amends to some of them.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah, and that's. That's gotta be certainly humbling and a big load to carry. But at the same time, there's also, like you said, there's this notion that I'm not really stealing it, I'm going to earn it back and put it right back. And that's part of the pathology of compulsive addictions. And I had a previous guest, Dave Holmes, former MTV vj, and he mentioned just how impactful it was for him to be at Times Square at the height of MTV's popularity and how he was a VJ and they were there to see Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake and all those people, but because he was there, because he was in that space, it became something that he craved as well. And he found himself not just wanting to be around the spotlight, but be in the spotlight. And so for you, you're at a very high level in your space. Very few people in the world get to interact with the celebrities that you're interacting with. Did you find yourself drawn to. You said Linkin park wasn't about sex, drugs and rock and roll, but at some point did that enter the equation? Did you feel like you are also, if not a celebrity, celebrity adjacent?
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B
It's a great question. And so, frankly, talent. We're not the talent. Business managers are not the talent. Lawyers are not the talent. Agents are not the talent. You know, and I never thought I was the talent. I was really good prior to my active addiction at staying in my scope of responsibilities and helping them as best as I could. I was not enamored. I never have been enamored by celebrities. And so the answer to that question is absolutely not. I was not. That's was not part of that entertainment space. I just happened to work as a member of a professional team that represents those high net worth celebrities. In fact, even Chester and the band and many of my clients have come to my, attended many of my children's bar mitzvahs and very close with all of my clients, even some of the direct victims I was close with. And people say, well, what kind of moron are you? And the truth is I was a moron. I dropped my moral compass that I thought I had. I thought I had integrity, but clearly I didn't. I was violating my fiduciary responsibility and couldn't look myself in the mirror. And when I did, I wasn't proud of who I saw. I don't make excuses. I don't blame it on my childhood trauma. Although that's clinical evidence to support maladaptive behaviors including but not limited to addiction. But the truth is I own it. And I want everyone that I speak with to learn how to take personal accountability. And I'm proud of that in me. I'm proud that my ego from those days is gone. I'm proud that I've adopted humility and becoming the person that I'm becoming today.
- [19:25]
A
Yeah. So in 2016, Alanis Morissette or her team discover that There was nearly $5 million missing from her accounts. And that's when the ball started on this collapse. Looking back to that moment, you know, the day before that happened. What was life like for you and the existence that you were leading the day before the bottom fell out?
- [19:52]
B
I mean, when I was in my active addiction every day for six years, I couldn't sleep. I don't like using curse words, but I was in absolute hell. I didn't want to live. It became suicidal ideation. I defaulted to starting to use cocaine. And I was probably used doing that subconsciously because I have heart condition to kill myself. Frankly, I'm glad I didn't. I have three beautiful adult sons that I'm still trying to earn back trust of at least 1 1/2 of them, if you will. And these are all because of my poor choices. But it was, it was awful because I was putting up, as they say in the AA book, I was living a double life, putting up a facade to the outer world that I was Superman. But deep down inside, I was completely insecure and low self esteem presented myself very differently. But I knew that I didn't know how to connect with my emotions. I didn't know how to connect body to mind somatically. And I was afraid every day that I was going to get caught. I didn't have the courage to ask for help. I wish I did have the courage to ask for help help. Back then things would have been very different. The impact would have been mild, not severe. But I don't live in my past, but I don't forget my past. And it was tough, it was really hard. But I'm not seeking empathy from others. I got everything that I deserved. My six year sentence in federal prison I deserved.
- [21:16]
A
Now rest assured, this isn't the first time that Jonathan has recounted his story and I did some research for this episode and I came across several other podcasts where he shared this same journey. And let's just say that below the episode that the listener comments were less than complimentary. There's that same matter of factness in his delivery that seems to rub some people the wrong way. And maybe it comes across as indifference at the least, or a lack of repentance at the worst. But as I hear him speak, I don't see it that way. Consider after all that Jonathan's a CPA by training. His prior professional life was built around dealing with facts. And even when he began a life of criminal behavior embezzling seven figures from a list celebrities, he wasn't dealing with the emotional side of things, but rather the factual. In recounting the data surrounding his story, he just tells it like it is. And it might be tempting to see that as non repentance for a criminal past. But when you look at what has come of his life since emerging from over a half a decade in a federal penitentiary, you see a life that's been shattered only to be rebuilt with a heart to serve. So maybe to those random commenters, I'm gullible. But what makes me willing to overlook the flat, factual delivery of specific behaviors that led to prison are the actions of a man who is now a counselor who works every day to help others dealing with their own addictions and compulsions. It was a steep price to pay. That all started behind bars.
- [22:53]
B
I learned a lot in prison. I did a lot of self reflection. You know, some people, often people ask me, Jonathan, if you were given a magic pill to make all of your addictions go away, would you have taken it? The answer to that question is absolutely not. Because if I took a pill and the Next morning, I knew I was sober and abstinent from gambling and drugs and poor choices. I wouldn't want that because I didn't take a pill. I took time to reflect on myself. I took time to look at all of my poor choices and to look at all the people that I hurt. My former partners, my employees, the community that I lived in, my beautiful three children, my beautiful ex wife, now my mom, my stepfather, my brother. I hurt. I hurt everyone in my world and including myself. But I needed to go to prison. I needed time to remove some of my defects of character, if you will, and start to learn who I really want to become as my authentic self. And that opportunity really helped shape me as to who I am today.
- [23:54]
A
Yeah, I think there's no doubt that it is a heavy load to bear to realize the people that we've hurt along the way. And you mentioned it yourself that in some ways the getting caught was perhaps the release that you were looking for. And so do you. Do you feel like that being caught or this discovery from Alanis and her team was really a critical, positive turning point in your life, even though by external standards like this guy's, world's falling down around him?
- [24:26]
B
Yeah, thankfully, it was the trigger to open up all the books of every client and identify those that I took from. And if not getting caught, I probably would have followed through with my suicidal ideation getting caught. I wish it would have happened sooner. But more importantly, I wish, as I said earlier, I would have had the courage after the first week of ever betting with a client's money to ask for help. My partners likely at that point, would have supported me. Perhaps I would have been required to go into a treatment center, which I would have embraced. But again, I wasn't emotionally regulated. I wasn't emotionally mature. I was in a dark place. And again, no excuse, but that's just how my mindset was. And I'm glad I got caught. In fact, when we knew that she switched business managers, when we received the call in fourth quarter 2015, the bookkeeper said, you know, what do you want me to do with all the files? I said, you know what? Don't do anything. Just give it to him. That was my way of saying, I'm going to get caught and I want to get caught. Because I could have changed the general ledger instead of from cash withdrawals to some other line items on the balance sheet or the income and expense financials, but I didn't. I wanted to get caught.
- [25:44]
C
Singer Alanis Morissette's former business Manager is headed to prison. An LA judge sentenced Jonathan Schwartz to six years for stealing millions from the Grammy winner and other clients. CBS2's Erica Mandy is live in downtown LA with reaction now from both sides. Erica. Well, Pat Alanis Morissette told a judge someone she trusted betrayed her in a, quote, sinister manner. She had to come face to face with that man here in federal court. In a hearing that lasted into the evening, Alanis Morris said arrived at federal court in downtown LA Wednesday to tell a judge how her former business manager, Jonathan Schwartz, harmed her and her future.
- [26:23]
B
He apologized directly to Ms. Morissette for the deceit and the harm that it caused her.
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C
A judge then handed down six years in federal prison and ordered Schwartz to pay more than $8.5 million in restitution. Schwartz admitted and pled guilty to embezzling a total of $7 million. In a letter to the court, Schwartz blamed a gambling addiction and promised to make amends, though the court didn't seem to buy it. The court said that may explain, but it doesn't excuse the conduct. The sentence of six years is actually more than prosecutors had asked for. We can assume Alanis Morissette is happy with that, but she did not want to comment after that hearing.
- [27:02]
B
Patrick so I did, yeah, I never had the chance to make amends to Alanis. And the only reason why we I talk about Alanis and you mentioned Alanis is because she's the only one of all the of the five victims, she's the only one that came out publicly. And so I feel comfortable expressing that I'm not violating any confidentiality there, if you will. The others have asked in the courtroom to have their names sealed so they're identified by letters or numbers. And I won't reveal those names because I want to honor that. In fact, all of my clients were great people. None of them deserve this. And even the indirect clients, the clients whom I didn't take from but were on my client roster, they were embarrassed by my behavior. So nobody deserved this. And I, you know, I just, they were incredible people and I just hurt them very much.
- [27:52]
A
Yeah, I respect that. I know that going through the process of trial and going to prison, being incarcerated, you emerged as a different person. While external accounts and I've seen some interviews that you've done talk me through the in between time, though. You don't just magically go from being caught stealing almost $5 million to being remorseful and wanting to make amends. What was that healing process and that, that restoration, recovery like for you and what did you lean on or learn from during that time that that really helped.
- [28:29]
B
So when I got caught, I was put on 14 months of pre sentencing, which means I was restricted to movement within a certain geographical parameter. And what I did was I did two things. One is I said, let me go into an outpatient program. It was called Beta Shuva. They specialize in gambling and substance use here in California. But I didn't go there honestly for the right reasons. I went there because they had an alternative sentencing department and I was hoping that would help. They would help me within that department to mitigate my sentence. So I certainly didn't go for the right reasons, number one. Number two, I decided that to work with a sponsor, one of the most well respected men in the AA community, and alcohol wasn't my thing. But with my mindset, even Today, I'll be 10 years sober on May 9th of this year. You know, I'm just as susceptible to a relapse today as anybody else with two or three days. But I worked the steps with him. And when I saw the Step 1 instructions to accept that my life was powerlessness and unmanageable, I called him up the next day. I said, I can't do this. Step one, I don't understand. He says, what don't you understand? I said, me, Jonathan, like unmanageable and powerlessness. He said, schmuck, you're facing 23 years in federal prison. You don't think your life's unmanageable and you're powerless over it. I said, very good point. Let's get started. And that part in part was that leap that I needed to stop my deniability, stop my dishonesty and manipulation, to drop my ego, adopt humility, surrender to a power greater than myself. And he is the man that probably saved my life. I'm very active in the 12 step community today, particularly Gamblers Anonymous and Cocaine Anonymous and attribute who I've become to that program. So that was my journey pre going into prison, working the steps with a sponsor, attending meetings, attending home groups, going to an IOP that I wasn't really. I really didn't want to be there. But the optics looked good. So I went and I did learn some things, but not as much as I could have had. I had a more mature mindset and more internal validation and motivation. So that was what that, that got me to a point where in prison I can continue with the 12 steps. We had AA in prison and so I did attend, not regularly, but enough to say that I attended Maintain sobriety within prison where they're gambling all the bringing in contraband. I never received a disciplinary fraction anything. I was a nerd. I became a nerd in prison. I became risk adverse in prison. And I taught a victim impact program in prison to help inmates understand that their, their poor choices had victims and to own it, as I said earlier in your podcast today, and that was really rewarding. And I taught accounting and so I was started being of service while incarcerated.
- [31:30]
A
Here you hear Jonathan's slow and admittedly resistant trek from struggling addict and convict looking to do things that might look good and perhaps lighten his sentence to someone who's done the inner work and now understands where he went off course and ultimately began to choose to serve others not because it looked good, but because it was the right thing to do. Slowly, a seed began to sprout that would send his life in a vastly different direction than CPA and business manager to the stars. But even that path wasn't without some significant setbacks.
- [32:05]
B
When I came out the prison, I needed more humility and I couldn't get a job. I'm a felon. So I worked at Dunkin Donuts. After two months, I got fired from there, not cleaning the floors. And ultimately my higher power sent me a signal and he said, you need to go to addiction studies school, get your kdac, and then I want you to go to grad school and become a marriage and family therapist with an emphasis in addiction and trauma so that people don't make the same mistakes that I made. And so I'm proud that that was my journey and has been my journey. And I'm proud of being that therapist today that can talk to people like my brothers and sisters in the program and help them as best as I can.
- [32:43]
A
Yeah, well, that's honestly that. That's a common thread that I hear. Whether folks dealing with addiction or those that work in, in the therapy space is oftentimes either they got support and they want to be that for someone else, or in some cases they lack support and they want to be that for someone that doesn't have it. And so I applaud you for turning, you know, what was obviously a crushing moment, and by all accounts, it was something that you wouldn't have necessarily chosen, but it's ended for good. What do you think are the biggest lessons you've taken from this journey and how do you hope to inspire other folks today?
- [33:22]
B
One is to not judge a book by its cover. To get to know an individual, not by what they look like perhaps on the outside, but to spend time and get to know someone. I found that when I was interested to learn in prison about most inmates and they took the time to share their story, regardless of socioeconomic status, religion, race or otherwise. At the core, they loved their family that they hurt as well. And so for me, one of them was to not judge other people. Two would be to, most importantly, have the courage to ask for help. Three would be to recognize humility and to be. And to accept a fellowship. The importance of community. So today I surround myself with very small quality inner circle because I can set boundaries. I learned how important it was to set boundaries. I recommend to clients daily to please set boundaries for yourself. It's a healthy version of being selfish. It's not like you're being self centered and develop a quality inner circle. Because I think in our society we use the word friends too loosely and we use the words I love you to friends too loosely, particularly here in California. And so I think it's important to surround yourself with healthy people. And that's what I've done. And that's what I learned as well. And most importantly, as well as as dropping the ego and asking for help is take responsibility, stop making excuses, learn. Identify the people that you hurt, your loved ones, you're not going to. I'm not going to earn back the trust of my loved ones through this mouth because they remember this mouth as being manipulative and dishonest. The only opportunity I have is to continue to do the next right thing on a daily basis. And if someone's willing to observe me and see that I'm a different person, say through my behaviors, not my words, then perhaps I'll be blessed that those people will accept me back into their life. Yeah.
- [35:15]
A
I'm reminded the first ever guest on this show is a guy by the name of Joseph Skrajewski. He's the executive director at Hazelden Betty Ford out in Rancho Mirage. And it was really my interaction with him. I participated in a medical education program where we were exposed to addiction care for the first time in my life. And I will say with, with all naivety, I went there judging a lot. You said a lot of people are judgmental, they're not curious. And, and I probably, if I'm honest, viewed addiction as a convenient excuse for a lot of people. And they would say, you know, you make poor choices and those are the consequences. But viewing addiction as a psychological disorder as something that some folks are genetically more likely to have than others, and seeing addiction care firsthand you know, the medical intensive care for people detoxing is days one and two and three. And then you go into the psychological healing and just seeing what those spaces were like for people that have had their world fall down around them and now they're dealing with a physical ailment. You know, they can't control their heart rate and uncontrollable sweating and all of the physical issues associated with detox. And then to see people on day 26, 27, 28, getting ready to leave the program and just seeing how far they had come. I was only there for a week, but I got to see kind of a cross section of what a month long intensive inpatient addiction recovery program was like. One of the things that stood out to me the most there was, there were people who had been in there multiple times and the relapse rate is, is fairly high. And one patient in particular came to me and he said, you know, I am great in here. It's, I go to yoga, I've got my, my food is picked out for me. They give me this, this training protocol and I'm learning things. And as long as I'm a hazel to medi ford the world is, is great and I'm, I'm a contributing member of this community. But as soon as I go back, I'm surrounded by all the places and the people and the surroundings that enabled me to become an addict to begin with and I just fall apart. Have you encountered that in, in your recovery? Whether it's from addiction or whether it is from just making amends with, with people in your life? Talk to me about the importance of the community, the space, cultivating your environment so that you successful in that recovery journey.
- [37:58]
B
Yeah. So to your point earlier regarding a treatment center and what happens inside of a treatment center. Right. So I work as a program director and a therapist at a place called Altus Rehab and we're a luxury detox and residential facility in California. And we're both cash pay and private insurance. Right. So the private insurance, the problem I have with the industry as a whole is this. So every week or every X number of days, the baseline timeline is 30 to 40 days. If you're lucky, you can get more than 30. If you're lucky, you get 40 plus. But it all depends on a case manager at the insurance company who doesn't even understand addiction. So yeah, their detox could take three days, it could take 10 days. It all depends on what substances they've entered treatment with. And it can be severe. But we have Doctors and nurses that manage those withdrawal symptoms, you know, every moment of every day that they're under, they're struggling with their withdrawals. But to extend them further when they step down to residential level rtc. It is a constant battle with insurance companies and it's really the pet peeve that I have. I jokingly but yet somewhat seriously want to go in front of Congress and talk about this. So now let's fast forward. We're at day 27 now. I'm trying to get them a week more. It gets denied. Why does it get denied? They don't even look at the clinical documentation. They don't look at the medical necessity from the medication protocol. They have a script and the script says protect your our bottom line. And so if I don't, if they don't authorize more days, then guess what happens to in the eyes of the insurance company, their bottom line. It goes up. I would love to say to them, but it's not pro recovery behavior for me to say this. Are you kidding me? What you're doing is you're setting up your insured to go to leave here prematurely when there's still family sessions that need to be done. Because most people in addiction rupture the family dynamics. We want to give somewhat a vivitrol shot. We need time to manage that post the shot. And so you don't realize insurance company that your bottom line is going to suffer because you're setting them up for a relapse and now they have to start over and over again because you are or you do not understand addiction. And I don't care if I even speak to an addiction doctor. They have strict rules and it's sad. And that's what I'm very disappointed about within the recovery community, private insurance companies. And I'm also not naive to understand that people in our society don't understand addiction and mental health well enough. I think we need to educate people more. But yet to your, to your example, that's why people are constantly coming back in because they're not getting the authorization or they're not putting in the work. Right. And if someone's here is not doing the work, I'm going to encourage them to leave because we have a bed available when you leave if you're not here for the right reasons. That for someone who really wants to be here and better themselves. And so yeah, that for me surrounding myself in treatment is not my recovery program. Do I love being of service to my clients? Do I try to help every client? Absolutely. It Doesn't. It's not a job for me. I don't have a job. This is my passion. But my fear, as I mentioned earlier, is to become complacent. And so I am very active. Like I said earlier, in a 12 step community, I don't preach the 12 steps to clients. There are three fellowships or even more they can choose. We'll take you to like I'm taking clients this morning to a CA meeting. Let's go see a 12 step meeting. Let's attend it. Let's go to a smart recovery meeting. Let's go to a Dharma recovery meeting. The idea and the concept behind a fellowship is those rooms understand the way our minds are wired. Where are you going to be in a community like that where you can say anything and feel safe and you're going to get people who are saying I'm struggling with that. Can we talk after the meeting? Go to a church, go to a synagogue, go to some community where you feel like you have people that you can talk to and that you're not, you know, that you're not alone and you're not isolating and bored, which is a common trigger for many people in addiction. But you also mentioned a thing that I believe is the number one question asked to within the addiction community globally, and that is, is addiction a disease or is it a choice? Well, there's clinical evidence called multi generational transmission. My father was a gambling addict and a cocaine addict, may he rest in peace. I never wanted to be like him, but I became much worse than him. That's the disease component question always posed on any assessment during an intake is is there any substance use history in your family? And 99% of the time the answer is yes. So there's that multigenerational transmission, a disease component. But at some point it becomes a choice. And so I believe to answer to that question in my professional opinion is it's both. It starts off maybe as a disease with the genetic makeup, but then the ultimate we. I certainly had a choice and I continued to make poor choices. I didn't make the right choices.
- [43:13]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I think if you ascribe too tightly to either one of those extremes, it becomes an excuse or an explanation that strips the person of their individual culpability, I guess you could say. But. But it also, if you're too far in the. It's, it's just a choice and you're just making poor decisions, you're not recognizing that some people are genetically pre programmed to struggle with this more than others. And there's a lot of privilege kind of baked into that. So I think your point is. Is well taken, that, yeah, you may have a predisposition, but you also have an active role. Want to be respectful of your time. Wind it down here a little bit. I've heard it said that when words aren't enough, you sing. And music oftentimes expresses emotions in a way that few other things can. A question I ask of all my guests is, if we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you pick to play in the background and why?
- [44:09]
B
Good question. I would probably pick a song that Chester Bankton from Linkin park wrote called Lost. I lost in these memories Living behind my own illusion Lost all my. Confusion. It was released maybe within a year ago or so. And it just talks about how lost I was, how much I didn't. I was putting up this facade. And, you know, may Chester rest in peace. That man just went through a lot and unfortunately killed himself when I was in prison. And I miss him, think about him dearly. But, yeah, the song Lost that he. He's. He performed with Linkin park is a song that is near and dear to me because that was my life too. I was lost.
- [45:15]
A
Yeah. And hopefully through all this, you've managed to find purpose and clarity. And I love how you said that you don't have a job. You have a purpose.
- [45:22]
B
You have a purpose. Like, I don't wake up every morning and go, oh, my God, like most people do. Like, oh, my God, I gotta wake up to go to work. Woo me, victim. I wake up. I'm the first one in here. I love seeing clients wake up and asking them how their night was. Do you want to talk about anything before we do a formal session or do group therapy? This is not a job. I. Like I said earlier, I make very little money. I happen to work for an incredible woman who's a great boss, who's given me an opportunity as a felon to start here years ago as a case manager, and ultimately become a program director and therapist because I'm indebted to her. I'm indebted to the people that I work with that have helped shape me as well the people in my sober network. But this isn't a job. It's my passion. I know this is what my higher power wanted me to do. And. And he guided me here. And am I emotionally exhausted and drained at night doing sessions? Of course, that's part of being a therapist. And I realize I can't help everyone. You know, therapists must realize that maybe you're not a good fit for someone. But the beautiful part about being a therapist in this environment is I'm not just spewing the academia portion that therapists learn from books, but my life experience with addiction and trauma almost immediately establishes a therapeutic alliance and rapport with the clients and trust. And that's special to me. I'm in the right place. I'm with people much like me. And it's nice to know that I'm playing a role in helping them re enter their lives, working with their families and feeling better about their relationships versus when they first came here to when they leave. And that's the best joy and the most rewarding thing I've ever done in my life.
- [47:04]
A
Yeah, you may have answered this one, but always kind of rap with this one at the very end. The title of this show is Becoming Undone. How we go from feeling like we're coming apart at the seams to realizing we've got a purpose yet unfulfilled. And for you, you've pivoted into this therapy space. But I'm wondering what for Jonathan Schwartz is left unfinished. What's left to be done?
- [47:27]
B
Still earning back the trust of one of my children. Very important to me. Still helping my mom get through her stage four lung cancer and seeing her survive a lot longer each day professionally, coming out with my book that I believe will really help people, followed by, God willing, a Netflix series or a big screen feature film. And then I want a tour like a Jordan Belfort and a Tony Robbins. And I want to give the same messages I've given you and your listeners today. Have the courage to be vulnerable. Do not judge. Take personal accountability. Learn who you are, become your authentic self. Connect with your emotions and just do the right thing. So that's, that's my hope for things that I still haven't done. But those are my passion projects.
- [48:12]
A
Great. How can listeners connect and follow along with the work that you're doing?
- [48:17]
B
Thank you for asking. They can follow me on my professional Instagram, which is hereal. Jonathan Schwartz J O N A T H A N Schwartz S C H W A R T Z Small following, growing it organically and I would love and if they have any questions once they join or they log into my Instagram, I'm not a technology person and they want to direct message me. If they need help, I'm happy to help. My name is Jonathan Schwartz and I am undone.
- [48:52]
A
Sometimes the stories that stop us in our tracks aren't the ones that end in victory, but the ones that begin in pieces. Jonathan Schwartz didn't just fall from grace. He imploded under the weight of his own unchecked aspirations and pain and addictions. He hurt people who trusted him. He lost everything. And then from those pieces of what used to be in his life, he chose to assemble something better. Accountability. Recovery and purpose. Not performance, not pr, but real, hard daily work. And that's what struck me the most in this conversation. It wasn't just the scope of the collapse, but the humility in the rebuild. Not once did Jonathan ask to be excused for his behavior. He simply asked to be seen as someone becoming. Maybe you're there too, caught in the wreckage of your own decisions, or even someone else's. Maybe you've felt that pull between shame and silence, between fear and honesty. Maybe you know what it feels like to be lost. But here's the good news. Being undone isn't the end. It's often the beginning of who we were always meant to become. So if you're standing in the rubble today, just know you're not alone. You're not finished. And there is still a way forward. I'm thankful to Jonathan for dropping in and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com ep149 to see the notes, links and images related to today's guest, Jonathan Schwartz. Some quick updates about the show we dipped a bit, but we rebounded mightily this week. Peaked out at number five again in the world in education and self improvement and hit an all time best at number 115 in Apple's top 200. If you want to follow along and see our progress for yourself, you can now go to undonepodcast.com rankings cheer us on. My goal for 2026 is to stay in that top five. That was one of my goals. So we already got there in February war. So that's awesome. And to hit top 100 across the board. We got really close, but just not quite so. With your help we can do it. If you'd be so kind as to share the show with a friend, leave a comment or a review that would be most helpful and most appreciated. Coming up on the show next week, I've got a solo episode in the works where I reflect on the career and this week's painful end to the legendary career of Olympian Lindsey Vonn, whose grit and bravery to compete with a torn acl in the 2026 Winter Olympic Games has become a point of debate. I'll break down what her presence at the Games meant and how her first statement following a serious leg injury just moments into what would be her final run are worth a close look. Then I'll have former Australian fighter pilot Christian Boo Bokosis, whose pivot following a storied military career has him today speaking to C Suite executives and others who lead people, lead impact and lead in the moment. This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Becoming Undone is a nitrohype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at becomingundonepod and follow me at Toby BrooksPhD on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Check out my link tree at linktr.ee tobybrooksphd. Listen, subscribe and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you are. You get your podcast. Until next time friend. Keep getting better.
- [52:52]
B
It.