← Becoming You with Suzy Welch
Becoming You with Suzy Welch
Am I a Good Mother-in-Law? And Other Questions That Save Families with Dr. Tracy Dalgleish
00:29:04
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- [00:02]
A
It's your mother. It's your mother in law calling. Hello. I am smugly sitting here boasting about what a good mother in law I am, but I think that I. I think that the only way to do it is just to put you on the spot and ask you to give me a grade and how I am as a mother in law. Oh, my gosh. All right, you're gonna have to stay tuned to this episode of Becoming youg to find out the grade that my daughter in law gives me as being a mother in law. I mean, my heart was pounding chest. I don't know about yours, but thank you for joining me, Susie Welch, on this special episode of Becoming youg, which is about navigating the holidays with your family, which may or may not have the same values as you do. I am so excited that for this episode of Becoming youg, we're sitting down with one of the world's leading experts on Family Dynamics, Dr. Tracy Daglies. This is such a great episode. Stay with us for the next 25, 30 minutes as we talk about family and holidays. I'm so happy to have you with us, Tracy, so that we can talk about navigating different values with family during the holidays. Welcome to becoming you.
- [01:11]
B
Thank you so much. Susie and I think our work really overlaps in such a beautiful way in the sense of helping people live aligned with what matters most to them.
- [01:21]
A
Well, first they have to know what matters most to them. Right. And I think you find that too. One of the first premises of your work is get with your family and figure out what your values are. I want to recommend they all use the values bridge to do that, but there's other ways to do it and you recommend a good way to do it. And I think that values are what we clash into when we go home. And we can't understand why it is in the first 15 minutes we're in a fight with our mother in law. How would I know if I was a good mother in law?
- [01:47]
B
You would be able to see the couple as a we and you encourage them to turn to each other. You would not take their boundaries, desires, and wishes personal as an offense to you or how much they love you. You would be curious about them and also at the same time, share your own needs with them, knowing that it's not their job to please you and to care for all of your feelings.
- [02:12]
A
Well, we'll have to survey Eva and Michelle and Kaway to make sure that I follow all these things I'm going to say Maybe with lack of self awareness that I'm a good mother in law. Because when all of my children, the three of my children who got married, got married, I thought, thank God I can now outsource them to their proper partner in. I mean, I feel like I was their partner until they were then launched into their now family of origin, which is their family of choice. Right. This new coupledom. So I hope I do those things. All right, let's. I hope I'm a good mother in law. I think I am. Let's just find out. This is going to be a total surprise to them. I hope this doesn't backfire on me big time. It's your mother in law calling. Hello? Hello, sweetheart. I'm doing a podcast right now in this very moment in the studio about spending holidays with your family and the different tensions that come up on spending the holiday with your family. And I have with me like one of the world's absolute leading experts on the relationship between mother in laws and daughter in laws. And I am smugly sitting here boasting about what a good mother in law I am. But I think that, I think that the only way to do it is just to put you on the spot and ask you to give me a grade and how I am as a mother in law. Oh my gosh.
- [03:28]
B
Is there a grade above A plus?
- [03:31]
A
Don't you love her? Keep talking. No. Oh my gosh.
- [03:37]
B
I like, I feel like I won.
- [03:39]
A
The lottery in terms of in laws. Okay. Incredible. All right, well, I love you very much and I'm gonna cry because you're the best daughter in law. We've known each other a very long time, Eva. I won the lottery. Okay, so I've got one above A plus. I'm gonna call Michelle now. I hope this one works out. Hello? Hi, Michelle. It's. It's mom. How are you? I'm good.
- [04:02]
B
How are you?
- [04:02]
A
I have a quick question for you. Look, I. Michelle, and you don't have to play along, but I have this question for you and I thought, you know what? I'm just going to call Michelle and ask her if I'm a good mother in law. Just do it. I mean, okay, look at this. I'm two for two. I also did this to poor Eva. Thank you, Michelle. You're the greatest daughter in law and you are the best team I've ever seen. You and Roscoe together. I'm the most blessed person in the world. So thank you very much. I feel so overwhelmingly grateful to be a part of your family. Well, we are family. All right, I love you, sweetheart. I'll talk to you later. Okay, Bye.
- [04:37]
B
Oh, goodness. All right.
- [04:39]
A
I have been proven. I have been proven to be a good mother. Thank God.
- [04:44]
B
So beautiful. Even as parents, we never give up that desire to know that I'm still some kind of figure in your life.
- [04:51]
A
Yeah.
- [04:52]
B
And so for many parents, when they see their son specifically or their daughter, they're off living their own life. They start to feel insecure and wonder, what's my role?
- [05:02]
A
Is there something wrong with me? When I saw my sons go off into the sunset with their wives, I wept from joy. I was like, I have worked so hard to raise these young men, and they're fine young men. Thank God. There's someone else's problem now. Am I weird?
- [05:16]
B
You are what we would describe as someone who's created healthy individuation and separation and autonomy, and that is our goal as parents. And of course, I know in individualistic cultures that can feel overemphasized. And yet, at the same time, our children aren't ours to own. Our job is to help them separate. So that just because I believe in prioritizing, Christmas Day on X Day or Thanksgiving has to be celebrated on this day, someone else might not. And that's okay. I can hold those two truths.
- [05:46]
A
Well, this is the whole thing. Is it? That's okay. Like, why must we judge each other? I mean, I think that I was actually, now that I'm going back in time, I think at the beginning of Roscoe and Michelle's marriage. This is my oldest son and his magnificent wife, Michelle. At the beginning, I was a little bit put off that I couldn't talk to him alone anymore, because once she came into the picture, she was like, if you're going to have a conversation with me with him, have it with me there. And I remember kind of missing talking to him alone, because that was my guy, you know, he was my big boy, of course. And then in time, I got used to it. And now I never text them separately. Like, sometimes I'll text her and say, what size shoes shoe does lira wear now? But I would never text him separately. I always put them on together. So I guess, to be honest, there was a little bit of observing that she was the new sheriff in town, and I had to do some letting go, but it wasn't hard. I mean, I was very happy to. My second son has been with his wife since they were 14 years old. So I think I kind of said sayonara to him years and years Ago.
- [06:48]
B
You had to welcome Marion early, though.
- [06:50]
A
I loved her so much. She's so smart. I mean, she's so smart. I remember when she was 15 years old, we were all in the museum together, and I would send the kids off to go find sort of like go find an Annunciation and come back here in 15 minutes and tell us why it's the best one in the museum and these other strange games. And so I would do that. And when they were 15, she found this Annunciation painting that she loved. And I said, wait, don't you like this one better? And she looked at me and she said, well, I'm really not a da Vinci girl. I'm more of a Caravaggio girl, referring to two, like, obscure Italian artists. And I remember thinking, I hope he marries her.
- [07:27]
B
You were curious about her. She was interesting, and you allowed yourself to meet her. And that right there. I think curiosity is something that many people across generations miss in their relationship. And instead, what we show up with is rigidity or control.
- [07:45]
A
Oh, my God. Say this again. It's so true what you're saying.
- [07:47]
B
Yes. We. Out of insecurity, we lose in. We lose curiosity.
- [07:52]
A
Let me say it again, so true.
- [07:54]
B
Out of insecurity, we lose curiosity. And so instead, to protect ourselves, we armor up and we then bring in rigidity, control, denial. We don't want to look to experience the other person. We only focus on the self.
- [08:13]
A
Oh, my God, it's so true. And we judge. We judge, we judge, we judge. And so that's coming from this place of rigidity. I love this. And you know, I'm sorry, it's really hard for me not to mention the values bridge again, because if you can name the values, okay. And say, I'm curious what your values are not. Here are my values. Take them or leave them. And you better take them. It's say, what are your values? Right. That involves a kind of softness and curiosity that you're talking about. How do you get that?
- [08:42]
B
There's this element, too. I want to go off of that, Susie, is that we can then say, while our values are different now, how do we co create this structure together?
- [08:51]
A
Right?
- [08:51]
B
And remembering that relationships, family, they're not determined by one event, Right. With the holidays coming up, so many people narrowly define their relationship with this one thing. Instead of seeing relationships are defined over.
- [09:07]
A
The course of a year, they defining by. When you say that, you're saying they're defining them by the one thing, like Christmas Day, right? Okay.
- [09:13]
B
The dinner that we've hosted, it's all.
- [09:15]
A
Going to happen around that day. Right.
- [09:17]
B
And when it doesn't, then somebody is labeled as the bad one.
- [09:21]
A
Yeah.
- [09:22]
B
And often it's the daughter in law who is coming in and changing patterns. I hear from so many clients, daughters in law are scapegoated. Mothers in law will say things like, my son never did these things until she came along. Because of course, when we are struggling with information.
- [09:40]
A
Yeah.
- [09:40]
B
What's the first thing we do? We blame. We externalize. Put it on somebody else. Rather than again using something like the values bridge, bringing it inward and saying, how is it that I'm experiencing this? What matters to me and what matters to them?
- [09:57]
A
Look, you got to let them have their marriage. So the holidays bring up all this stuff. They bring up different values which people have no language about. They bring up people sort of using the holiday as the defining moment. Right. This is why it gets so stressful. Right. And then the stress comes out often in the marriage. Right. The mother in law and the daughter in law don't have the fight. The husband and the wife have the fight. I mean, that happens a lot. Right. They go home and the husband's put. Or typically in this very awkward position of like, am I siding with my mom or my wife here?
- [10:30]
B
Which women who do I please? Do I. I look left and there's my mother who was at my soccer game when I got my first goal, who launched me at college. And then I look right and here's the person I go to bed with. Here's maybe the mother to my children who am trying to keep happy. And of course, you know, and I don't want to broad stroke, but we do know that men tend to be more problem solvers and fixers and they want to keep everybody happy because that helps them to feel like they're enough. If I can problem solve, they can't.
- [11:05]
A
Sometimes, I mean, and then they, and then they try to keep everybody happy. They end up lying to both sides of the equation. And they. Everybody goes ricocheting around and families blow up over it.
- [11:14]
B
Here's a common example. I see men go to mom and, and talk only about what she wants to hear. But then he doesn't bring in his wife. He doesn't say, tracy's been to New York doing the thing or whatever that looks like. And then goes to his wife and when his wife says, did you tell your mom about our big thing coming up? And he says, oh, no, it's not a big deal. Or when she says, your mom's been criticizing my parenting again, or she came over and was talking about politics. You know how I feel about talking about politics. And then husband says, it's not that big of a deal.
- [11:48]
A
Right.
- [11:49]
B
Paper cut.
- [11:49]
A
Right.
- [11:50]
B
That's just Mom. Paper cut. Invalidation over and over again. And that's the sticking piece between couples. Because the truth is, he does not experience his mother the same way she will. And that's okay. We don't need to have the same experience, but we need alignment and validation.
- [12:06]
A
Yeah.
- [12:07]
B
And that's really where step three of my vault method helps couples.
- [12:10]
A
Walk us through your method. Step one is find the vat. Find your values.
- [12:13]
B
Yeah. So there's five steps in the vault method, and it came from this imagery of having a vault, that it's a solid structure for a couple, so then you can invite people into your life. And V stands for values. That's the first step. Step two is asking for, yes, we.
- [12:26]
A
Highly here at Becoming youg Universe. We highly applaud the values part of this process.
- [12:31]
B
And there's a reason why. Because so many people come to me in my therapy room saying, please help my husband set this boundary with his mother. There's a reason we don't start with boundaries. If we start with boundaries, people get defensive. They get their backs. Understand why their wife or partner needs a boundary. That's where the values comes in. Step two is aspirations. How do we go from 35,000ft in the air to actually Sunday night, when mom wants us to go for dinner every Sunday night? So what do we want that to look like? Step three is understanding your triangle. There's a triangle at play. There's lots of triangles in our lives. And why do we bring in the third person? We do that to alleviate stress, anxiety, and not being able to navigate problems. And this helps couples to really see that triangle, step out of it and do something different.
- [13:17]
A
Different.
- [13:17]
B
Step four, limits and boundaries. Here I'm going to help couples really get on the same team so that you don't have one person saying, you need to do this, and the other person saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's my mom. Step five is taking action. This is all about how do we actually show up at the holiday dinner. And I use my three A's in that step, which is we're going to anticipate, we'll then act, and then finally we'll adjust.
- [13:42]
A
Bringing out acronyms. I often talk about the three Ds that there's three ways to live. The first is by default, where you just react, react, react. That is when people land in your office Then there's the second D, which is deliberation, which is when you start to try to bring some sense and intentionality. And then the third d is living by design. And that's what you're talking about, is you've got to be able to have a system that makes this all work. And you actually said something that brought back such a joyful memory to my heart. I just have to share it. So Roscoe and Michelle have two children. And of course, when you have two young children, he works full time, and there are days where it's an ultimate S show because somebody's got somebody sick, another person throws up, then something goes poorly at work and so forth. And I was up visiting them in Maine, and it was really getting intense, and one of the kids was really melting down. And I was in the back seat of the car with one of the kids, and they. I saw them. It was really one of these horrible moments where you could snap at your partner. And they looked at each other and they said to each other, same team. They said it at the same time. And then they fist bumped.
- [14:43]
B
Yes.
- [14:44]
A
I thought I was going to cry, and when I told it later to like some friends, they were like, that's so cringe. And I was like, there's nothing, nothing cringe about it. They look at each other and say, same team. When things are going poorly. I had a terrible first marriage, but a very happy second marriage. And I think that in my happy marriage, we didn't say same team, but we certainly lived same team. And that's the whole point. You don't have to have the exact same values to be on the same team, correct?
- [15:09]
B
Oh, yes. This is just so joyful to hear another couple doing this. Because in those moments, especially when your nervous system gets overwhelmed and you're going to start reacting to things, it's so easy to then look to your partner. Here's. Here's how I hear it with couples. She looks over at him and says, if you just packed the snacks, they wouldn't be melting down the back. And then he says, well, how am I supposed to know what to do? And then they spiral into their negative communication pattern, which leads them to not feel heard, seen.
- [15:38]
A
Right.
- [15:38]
B
And to be the we. Because couples end up doing the you versus me rather than we versus the problem. Right. The problem in that moment is the kids are melting down.
- [15:47]
A
Right.
- [15:47]
B
We're together. We're on the same team. And they just did that by this symbol of fist bumping.
- [15:53]
A
Right. Isn't it cool?
- [15:54]
B
Oh, don't you love them.
- [15:55]
A
A question for you. Can you have different values and be on the same team?
- [15:59]
B
Absolutely. And it's interesting because I think about how many couples come to me around the issue of politics, where that can even stretch people. And. And it's. It's often, you know, I think of a painting where someone comes to me and says, I love this person, and yet there's this. This value of theirs that I struggle with. It's not the same as mine. And I think of it like a painting. As you bought this beautiful painting, it arrives in your home, and you hang it up, and then you notice this red dot slightly to the right.
- [16:28]
A
Ugh.
- [16:29]
B
Don't really love that part of the painting. So you leave the room, you come back in, and the first thing you notice in the painting is the red dot. What does your brain do? Our minds will continue to focus on that, and then it becomes the negative story we tell ourselves.
- [16:43]
A
We just focus on the one thing we don't like. Yes.
- [16:46]
B
And in some ways, then we lose focusing on the whole person and who they are and why we chose them. So values don't need to be exactly aligned, but you do need to have understanding that you're two different people.
- [16:58]
A
Right. I think that I have two experiences with this recently. One is when my daughter and her then fiance did their values bridge together. And then I was working, and I was trying to work, and they were like, mom, we just did the values bridge. Come on in and read our results with us. And I was like, please, God. Please, God. Please, God. And as I was walking towards them, my daughter looked up at me and she said, is it weird when two people have the exact same top values? And I was like, it's not weird. It's the best news I've ever gotten. They had the exact same. Now, look, they had some different values, and they had some different authenticity gaps in that she's much more living her value of radius, the desire to change the world than he is, and he needs to close that gap. But they had the same values. But then what happened? Not too long after that, a couple that I know really, really well got engaged, and they asked me to do a comparison of their values, and they had none of the same values. And after we went walked through how different their values were, one member of the couple said to me, well, this is nothing we haven't heard in couples therapy, so thank you, and your tool works because there was only one extra problem that you identified that we hadn't heard. And, you know, it's like, okay, do you walk into a relationship or do you stay in a relationship where your values are really different? Traci, do you do that?
- [18:13]
B
Only you can decide. That's the classic psychologist responsive. It depends. It depends on what your needs are. It depends on how you can negotiate and come to the table with it. And so if one person's value is the belovedness that you and I had talked about, if that's high versus one of the other ones, it all comes into negotiation.
- [18:34]
A
Yes. Do you want to negotiate on that value? I mean, if it's your number one value is belovedness and your partner has belovedness, which is the value of romantic love at the bottom, the one thing you shouldn't do is not talk about it.
- [18:45]
B
Yes.
- [18:45]
A
Right. So let's talk about this. In family systems, we've talked about couples. What if your family just has really different values in you? What if they value all stuff that you just don't value at all? Okay. I mean, there's so many different examples of it. They could value achievement, they could value work centrism, they could value affluence. And you could walk in the door valuing eudaimonia and belonging. Can you happily exist during the holidays or not in a family where you don't share the values?
- [19:16]
B
This one really depends on what your expectations are. Do you show up in the home expecting them to meet you at that, or are you realistic in what they can offer for you? Can you sit at the table knowing that they're there for two hours, that this is what you do for the holidays? You all come together because family does matter.
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A
Right.
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B
And you find the areas that do feel good. But we have to make sure we're not bringing in those old wounds.
- [19:41]
A
Yeah.
- [19:42]
B
In. In the book, I talk about 10 different inner child wounds that we have. I. You know, and let's use this as an example. If you are a peacemaker and you show up in the hoe and you then bring that role back onto yourself and you're trying to keep the peace, and a sibling has a different value than mom and dad, and then it's at the table and you enter into that role, that's not going to feel good for you.
- [20:04]
A
Right. When.
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B
When you're outside of the home, outside of time.
- [20:08]
A
Yeah. What's another childhood wound that you bring in?
- [20:09]
B
Another one. The golden child.
- [20:11]
A
Tell me about it.
- [20:12]
B
The golden child feeling like they always have to achieve and accomplish.
- [20:15]
A
Right.
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B
There's also the caregiver always caring for everybody else.
- [20:20]
A
Right.
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B
And those are strategies that we learned.
- [20:22]
A
Kids to stay connected back into the house. You take that role on again, it forces you into conversations and relationships you don't want to have. And you, you're sort of tied into that role. Yes. And what do you.
- [20:34]
B
Rather than having your own set of boundaries and acknowledging what you can or cannot do with others, and we can't change others, but you can change yourself. So instead of going into the family home and entering into that role, you decide when brother and mom get into the conflict about careers and education and training, you step back. You don't have to solve it. You don't need to stand up for baby brother.
- [20:59]
A
Yeah. I met a couple today. He's a very well known, established Democratic, longtime American Democratic politician. And she's his new wife. And she comes from a family of really strong Trump supporters, really very deeply embedded in his politics. And they cannot believe that she married a Democrat. And she showed me a text from one of her uncles that said, just wanted to let you know, Trump recently did XYZ reverse sunshine. Right. And she wanted to like write back, you know, why would you send this text sort of pointing out a Trump victory to somebody who's just married a well known Democratic leader? And she said that it took everything in her and she just sent back a heart. And what she was doing from what you're describing is she's just decided to step out of every role that was expected of her, you know, to settle it, to explain it, to balance it. And she just sort of said, no matter what, I love you. And she said to me, she showed me the heart back to this message. And the new husband said, I was just so proud of her. I mean, it took a lot to step out of the role of sort of taking on the fight. And is that a strategy which is just to say whatever during the holidays.
- [22:17]
B
And it is the how much energy do I want to give this.
- [22:21]
A
Yeah.
- [22:21]
B
Where when I talk about values with clients, I think of the watering can and you only have so much water in that watering can. Where are you going to pour that into? And are you going to stand at the table and argue with everybody and exhaust yourself and leave and say, oh, I can't believe this again.
- [22:38]
A
I know.
- [22:38]
B
Instead of that sense of agency and that's what that person did, I'll send you the heart.
- [22:42]
A
Right.
- [22:43]
B
I'm not holding up a mirror. I'm not telling you. How could you? I'm not arguing or justifying. Just sending love. Love and kindness.
- [22:50]
A
That's right.
- [22:51]
B
And that is just the analogy I use or the Exercise therapy I talk about is dropping the rope. So every time you go in and hoping mom or dad or mother in law will be different at the family table, that's you pulling the rope. Yeah, I want them to change. I want our family to be different. But instead, put the rope down. Just drop it.
- [23:10]
A
That's right. It's not going to happen.
- [23:12]
B
You then have that sense of agency to send the heart.
- [23:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, I love that image. I love that image. Sending the heart. I. I think it makes me think of how, you know, how sometimes your kids will remind you of something you did wrong when they were 12 years old. Do you remember the time you embarrassed me in front of Sally or whatever. They bring it up. And when they got to be a little bit older, I said, at age 21, amnesty for all parents. Okay, you're 21. Your parents tried as hard as they could. Let it go, whatever they did when you were 12. And look, I'm not talking about cases of egregious abuse or when a parent has really done something that you have to. There are definitely cases where a parent has been so hurtful or that you have to step away from the relationship. I acknowledge that. I've seen it. But, you know, amnesty. Put the rope down and just say. And I think maybe if we go into this holiday season, you know, with the rope down and the heart, you know, sending the heart, basically walking, pushing that heart button on your phone, that that's the way to get through. Because you can't talk somebody out of their values.
- [24:12]
B
No. And when we think about what's most important to us, love and belonging. Do I matter? Am I enough? If every parent could see their child coming to them a bridge as an offering. And what do we do when they come to us? We say, I see you, I did my best, and that memory is painful for you. And if I could go back now, knowing what I know, I would do it differently. And that's all we need to hear. We're not going to rewrite history. And at the same time, when we show up with defensiveness or with the denial strategies of saying, that's not how it happened, that's not a big deal, you're too sensitive. Again, we've turned down curiosity and we've lost connection. And connection says, I see you, you matter to me. Your experience matters to me. And while I didn't get it perfect, which no parents get it perfect, then we can say, thank you for coming to me with this story and memory that you had in that moment, I.
- [25:09]
A
Think there's so much overlap in our work. But the great overlap is the curiosity part. I mean, there are a lot of other overlaps. I mean, we think we both want people to live very proactively when it comes to their family ecosystems, to have a strategy. But the curiosity about your family's values and the ability to say they are what they are, here's mine, there are yours, and then drop the rope, or in my case, sort of build the bridge so that you can sort of meet somewhere in the middle to talk about them. Not to change the other person you're not going to do. I mean, I've actually had people who take coming. You ask me like what if you don't like your values, can you change them? And I say, I'm not sure that's possible. You came to your values by your life experiences and that's true of everybody that you interact with. So, so your mother in law and your father in law and your sister in law, they all came to their values. And if you could just let the bridge be there with the rope down. There's a blended image I don't have in my mind yet. Maybe it's a bridge with a rope along the side and you start, you're just. Both of them are ways to get through the holidays with people who just are going to inevitably have different values than you.
- [26:12]
B
We haven't quite labeled compassion yet. I feel like that's part of this conversation as well. And I remind the people I work with when we're looking at different generations and different people to have compassion and understanding. We are all products of our patterns.
- [26:24]
A
Yes. Well, I would say I love you mentioning this word because I actually think that, I think this is true of both of us again is that the whole becoming you methodology is about compassionate self awareness because we have to sort of understand ourselves. And once we do, the beauty of it is that we then have, we extend it to the people around us. First we understand ourselves and then we go, okay, now I get they've got their story too and they've got their narrative too and I've got to let them write the story of their life as I've written mine. But you know, it's easy to talk about this stuff in the podcast studio. It gets really real feel at the around the Christmas table, doesn't it?
- [26:55]
B
It does, it does. And, and that's when we remember that people are often predictable and consistent.
- [27:01]
A
Right.
- [27:01]
B
Our values don't tend to change overnight. And so if you have bumped up against your family member with a certain value. Prepare yourself for that with kindness and compassion by saying, that's really interesting. This isn't a topic I want to talk about today or changing the conversation altogether because again, it's, it's showing up with, I care for you. I care for our bond. And we do better when we don't go into those conversations. But when we move over here into this other area, that feels good, right?
- [27:32]
A
My wonderful listeners, you're going into holiday. Most of you are going to go into conversations and events with family that may, may or may not be contentious. I hope this has been so helpful to you. I, I'm so grateful to you for having this conversation. I feel so much wiser for having had it with with you. Tracy, tell us all the different ways people can find you, hear from you more, learn more from you.
- [27:54]
B
Absolutely. The best place is my website, drtracyd.com or come over on Social. Say hello to me. I'm at Dr. Tracy D. Okay.
- [28:02]
A
Tracy D. All right. You gotta do it. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you. Happy holidays to you.
- [28:07]
B
Happy holidays to you, too, Susie. Thank you for this conversation.
- [28:11]
A
Thank you so much, Tracy. And this show is produced by the amazing and fabulous Mikey Robley, Eliza Zinn, Issa Lampson and Hallie Reiner. And if you liked what you heard, and I, Sam.