Can You Love Someone Without Losing Yourself? with Erin and Abe Lichy

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Becoming You with Suzy Welch
Episode: Can You Love Someone Without Losing Yourself? (with Erin and Abe Lichy)
Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Suzy Welch (NYU Stern Professor, Author)
Guests: Erin and Abe Lichy (Businesswoman, "Real Housewife," Attorney, Entrepreneurs)

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Episode Overview

In this lively and candid episode, Suzy Welch guides married couple Erin and Abe Lichy (and listeners) through her "Becoming Us" methodology—a spin on her well-known self-discovery tools from NYU. Using the "Values Bridge" test, Suzy helps Erin and Abe explore whether two people can love and build a life together without sacrificing their core selves or losing authenticity.

The central question: Can you maintain your individuality and purpose while in a committed relationship? The trio openly discuss values, compatibility, challenges, and growth—offering listeners a mirror for their own relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing the Methodology and the Guests

• Suzy introduces her "Becoming You" values-finding approach, explaining how couples have adapted it for joint self-discovery ("Becoming Us") ([00:06–03:34]).
• Erin and Abe are described as "multi-hyphenates"—with Erin juggling business, media, a cookbook, décor brand, and four kids; Abe as businessman, lawyer, and partner in these ventures ([01:48]).

2. Relationship Foundations

• Erin and Abe met through mutual friends at a bar, recognizing their connection early on ([05:05–05:33]).
• They reflect on their partnership evolving amid career changes, public attention, and parenting four children ([06:40]).

3. Personal Values: Self-Discovery Results

• Suzy administers the "Values Bridge" tool live, exploring both the ranking of their core values and the "authenticity gap"—how closely they're living up to these values ([03:36–09:42]).
• Abe's top values:
  • Voice (authentic self-expression, 40% gap): He’s striving for more authenticity ([09:42]).
  • Family centrism: Family as a central organizing force.
  • Belovedness: Romantic partnership, with a high priority to marriage.
  • Radius (desire to change the world, 100% gap): Feels unfulfilled in world-changing contribution.
• Erin's top values:
  • Luminance (fame, 50% gap): Values public impact, sees fame as a platform for purpose ([13:59], [14:14]).
  • Eudaimonia (self-care, leisure): Struggles to prioritize personal well-being ([15:17], [15:28]).
  • Affluence (security/wealth): Desires financial security, feels a gap ([15:41]).
  • Cosmos (spirituality/religion): Meaningful but not dominant ([16:00]).
  • Achievement: Visible success, driven by impact ([16:00]).

4. Comparing and Complementing Values

• Suzy notes that having identical values isn’t necessary; complementary values often lead to more harmony ([17:44], [18:21]).
  • Erin's pursuit of visibility complements Abe's emphasis on self-expression and support roles ([18:42], [22:22]).
• Both value eudaimonia (fun, recreation), which Suzy believes can "save the day" for marriages ([19:53–20:35]).
• Key point: Belovedness (marriage/relationship) is high for Abe, lower for Erin—mirroring broader gender trends ([20:40–21:44], [25:03–26:21]).

5. Gender Trends in Relationship Values

• Suzy shares data: Men often rank belovedness (partnership) higher than women, whose attention may shift to achievement or family ([25:42–26:21]).
• This can create feelings of underappreciation, but is solvable with honest communication about values ([27:20–28:46], [29:10], [29:19]).

6. The Challenge of Identity Amid Partnership and Parenthood

• Erin voices the struggle of not losing herself to work and motherhood—"I've completely forgotten about who I am" ([21:44], [34:49]).
• Suzy recognizes "survival mode" as common for parents, especially moms, empathizing with the quest for self-rediscovery ([35:16–36:00]).

7. Seeking Greater Purpose Together

• Both Erin and Abe experience a "radius gap"—the sense they aren’t doing enough to change the world ([31:32]).
  • Suzy encourages not to delay closing that gap: "I urge people not to postpone the closing of gaps" ([34:02]).
  • Even small joint actions towards making impact can be meaningful ([34:27]).
• The couple is challenged to find new joint ways to express that world-changing value now, not just "someday" ([34:49–35:04]).

8. Tools for Maintaining Connection and Growth

• Suzy highlights the importance of open dialogue, language around needs, and physical connection ("touch") ([29:03–29:33]).
• Both guests stress the regular check-in, humor, and shared activities (e.g., Abe surprising Erin with opera tickets) as keys to their ongoing happiness ([20:11], [36:41–36:49]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Authenticity in Relationships:
  • "The arc of life is long and it bends towards authenticity, that we claw our way to living our values." – Suzy ([08:36])
• On Values Diversity:
  • "You don't have to necessarily have overlapping values. There are definitely values that are in conflict with each other and others that are really in harmony." – Suzy ([17:44])
• On Gender Trends:
  • "Our data would show that men care about belovedness about 70% more than women do." – Suzy ([25:42])
  • "Men want to feel more appreciated. Men value belovedness more." – Suzy ([28:46])
• On Loss of Self in Marriage and Parenting:
  • "I've completely forgotten about who I am, which we talk about all the time. Like, I just have all these big goals that I really want to achieve." – Erin ([21:44])
• On Not Waiting to Pursue Purpose:
  • "I urge people not to postpone the closing of gaps." – Suzy ([34:02])
• On Fun as the Glue:
  • "When you stop having fun with your partner, I don't really know what the point... what's the point?" – Erin ([20:16])
• On Partnership Roles:
  • "I don't have a desire to be famous... I think my role has always been more of a behind-the-scenes type of role." – Abe ([22:22])
• On Rediscovering Self:
  • "[Some mothers] are there to find out who they are again... As they are remembering and rediscovering who they are, it's like, 'I missed you.'" – Suzy ([35:16])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:06] Introduction to values, Becoming Us, and guests
• [05:05] Erin and Abe’s relationship origin story
• [07:37] Initial self-assessment of values and living them day-to-day
• [09:42] Abe’s values & authenticity gaps revealed
• [13:56] Erin’s values & authenticity gaps reviewed
• [17:44] Comparing and interpreting value differences
• [20:40] Fun (eudaimonia) as a pillar of their marriage
• [21:36] Unpacking the marriage-valuing "belovedness" gap
• [25:42] Gender dynamics in valuing relationship/marriage
• [28:03] Communicating about appreciation and love languages
• [31:32] Shared longing for impact; the "radius gap"
• [34:02] Suzy encourages action, not delay, on pursuing deeper purpose
• [35:16] Rediscovering self, especially for working mothers
• [36:41] Real-life example: date night at the opera
• [37:01] Wrap-up and closing invitation to the audience

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Tone & Format

The conversation is candid, humorous, and open—balancing self-disclosure, research, and practical tools. Suzy’s style is warm, direct, and validating; Erin and Abe are authentic and unguarded, inviting listeners into the messiness and joy of partnership.

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Takeaways

• Values work is a transformative tool—for individuals and couples—allowing people to grow both together and apart without losing themselves.
• Complementarity may matter more than similarity in long-term happiness.
• Fun and authenticity are vital for sustaining partnership through life's complexity.
• Communication about differences and honoring each other's values are essential, especially where gendered patterns exist.
• Don't wait to pursue purpose or fulfillment; micro-steps matter now.

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For more:

• Find Erin and Abe on their own podcast "Come Together" and Erin’s upcoming cookbook, She's a Host (October 28).

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

We're here. Hi, I am Susie Welch. We're back. And you won't believe it, but this is. Once again, it's our best show ever. We're doing something really cool and different this week, thus making it our best show ever. Once. As usual. As usual. As you all know, every show is the best show ever. So, you know, this show is. It's called Becoming you. Because there's a methodology called Becoming you which helps Pierre find his purpose in life, helps everybody find their purpose in life. I know Pierre. What's your purpose? His purpose is to sit on my lap during the podcast. And this is based on a class I teach at NYU Stern School of Business. And Becoming you is a methodology that helps you excavate your values, your aptitudes, and your economically viable interests to help you figure out what to do with your life. But we found out very, very early with Becoming you that people were using the values portion of it, so somewhat off label. In other words, they were taking the values tests and they were doing them with their partners so that they could compare values. And in fact, this really went into high gear when the values bridge came out. Many of you were beta testers of the values bridge. And we found out right away that people were taking the values bridge and then they were comparing their results to their partner's results or their would be or desired partner's result or their ex partner's result. And so we put a functionality into the tool that allows you to compare values, and this ended up sort of becoming a process that we now joyfully call becoming us. But first, what am I doing? Rude. I would like to introduce our guests. I'm delighted to have with me my new best friends, Aaron and Abe Lychee, who are. You know who they are, but they're total multi hyphenates. Aaron was a real housewife. And you still are. Are you still.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. We're coming back.

[B]

All right. That's beautiful. And you have done so many other things. I mean, you're a businesswoman, you have a cookbook, you, you do decor, and you're just one of these fabulous multi hyphenates. Guess what? She does it with four children.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Craziness.

[B]

Yes, it is craziness. And, Abe, you're a businessman, you are a lawyer, and you work together in some ways, the two of you, on some stuff. There's also. What's this?

[A]

That's our mescal brand. That's our other. Our fifth baby.

[B]

I want to tell you that when people bring you House gifts. When they come to the pod, sometimes they bring gifts. And I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but this is the best gift. So bring out. It's not like you all know I'm not a big drinker. The other night, had a friend over and I had a second glass of wine. Felt like I'd been to a. Like I'd been to a frat bowl.

[A]

Well, because it's a lot of sugar.

[B]

Yeah, it was. And you know what it was, which I understand was the killer anyway. But the mescal is actually going to make me healthier.

[A]

Very clean. You feel great the next day. No hangover. It's really true. It's, like, kind of crazy.

[B]

If you drink it, like before leg day, it even makes you stronger, right at the gym. Look, I love having you, and I'm so glad that you were willing. You know, your relationship with each other is quite public, right? People know about it. You've been. I think you've probably helped a lot of people with sharing your love and your challenges. I think we learn from other couples.

[A]

And we're very open on our podcast about our relationship. It's really all about relationships and how we work together and parent together and all that. So I love being open.

[B]

I love it, and people love it. I mean, I think your vulnerability is what people really are drawn to. So thank you for having the vulnerability to come do becoming us with us. And we're doing this because we are inviting, in many ways our listeners to do this with their partners or to sort of do it.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I want you to know we are doing this completely live. We have not reviewed your results before. So this is like a true becoming.

[A]

Like, dying to know.

[B]

I know. It's kind of great. So I think that the first thing that we should do is I'm going to run through what your values are, your top five or six values, and maybe your bottom two values, along with your authenticity gaps, how much you're not fully living your value. Because the values bridge, as I said earlier, it measures two things. It measures your values and ranks them from 1 to 16. And then it also gives you a number that reports how much you're expressing it. You know, you could have a value and hold it very dear, but totally be in a position where you're repressing it. And then sometimes we have a value and it's overexpressed. It's too much in our face, and so that's a negative variance. Well, we'll talk about that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And once we Run through your values. We are going to compare your values and we're going to talk about how that shows up in your life. Okay? So come enter this marriage with me and this relationship. I hope it's a mirror for your own relationship and that the, the whole point is to better understand each other. I always say, you know, the whole point of becoming you and thus becoming us is compassionate self awareness that we understand ourselves better. Because the minute we understand ourselves better, we can start to understand our relationships with other people. People better.

[A]

Great point.

[B]

And, and, and then I'm like, we're.

[A]

Both kind of on that journey now.

[B]

Just naturally to know each other better.

[A]

To just know ourselves better. But you've known each other.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

No, our. No, just we know each other.

[B]

How would you remember? Very young.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I was 23.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And you were 27. 27.

[B]

How'd you meet?

[A]

At a bar.

[B]

The old fashioned way.

[A]

The old fashioned way. I mean, his, his cousin, his first cousin is married to my best friend growing up. Okay. And it's funny because my best friend growing up is a guy and his cousin's a girl. But like we randomly. I was actually studying for the lsat, which he then convinced me not. He was like, we don't need two lawyers in this, so do, like, do what you really want. So I ended up met.

[C]

I'm like, we don't need two lawyers. I knew I was gonna marry this girl.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

First date. You knew. I knew it.

[A]

My first date. Yeah, we knew, we knew. But also like, he knew me well enough to know I didn't want to be an attorney, which I didn't. I just was wanted more education. So I ended up going to NYU for sustainable development, which was way more up my alley, but it's just so interesting. Anyway, I was studying for the LSAT. My. @ the time, my best friend Carl was like, you should really come out. And I didn't want to go out. I was like, I'm studying for myself, I'm not going out. He's like, you should really come out. And then finally they were like, all right, well, there might be a guy there that you. And I was like, you know what?

[C]

Fine.

[B]

It was a bit of a fix.

[A]

Up, sort of, but like very last.

[B]

Minute, very casual, very, you know, he was the guy. The first minute, the way he seemed to know.

[A]

I think so. Yeah. Okay, so I know I. Yes, I did. I mean, I think I was like a little more hesitant.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, we weren't looking for that Right. At the time. But how babies.

[B]

How soon afterwards were you married?

[A]

Two years after.

[C]

Yeah, well, I proposed after five months. Okay, well, no, I asked you. I asked your dad's permission.

[A]

Proposed after. Not like almost a year, nine months.

[C]

But I asked permission after.

[A]

Yeah, well, my dad was like, let's go. He, like, knew that he was going to be the guy.

[B]

I love it. All right, let's, let's.

[C]

All right.

[B]

So now, look, the marriage has been. When you've had. When you have a national prominence on TV and you change careers and you start businesses and you add in four children, a lot, A lot happens in a relationship. And I'm a big believer that. And I'm. Maybe it's a crazy thing to say right now, but I'm a big believer that shared values can really save a marriage. Even in. In challenging times.

[A]

I wonder if we share them.

[B]

I know, like, before we get going, I don't expect you to know all the terminology of the values bridge, but what do you. Erin, what do you think your values are?

[A]

Family, career. Well, based on the questions, aesthetics. Okay. Growth.

[B]

Growth. Okay.

[C]

And Abe, family for sure. Career also, but I guess just happiness.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Self happiness.

[B]

Okay. Okay. And how closely do you think you're living to your values right now?

[A]

I think that I've learned and I think maybe this just happens, like in my age range where I've started to realize that there are ways that I could have more self love and spend more time, like, with myself and doing things that I care about more, which I don't think I ever asked myself, like, what do you want? I just was, go, go, go, go.

[B]

That's right. That's a very common thing, is that, first of all, a lot of times we just don't even know our values in particulars. And then we don't give ourselves permission to live them. And sometimes that's just in our head and sometimes it's really quite hard. So we have a number for how close you are to your values. How about you, Abe? Do you think you're living them?

[C]

I think I'm on the. Recently had a bit of a spiritual awakening, and I feel like I'm finally on the path to living them more fully. But I don't know. I've always. I've had this realization that I've subordinated my needs to everybody else in my life, which is not uncommon, I think. But I don't think I was living my values as much as I would like to be.

[B]

You know, I think our lives are a journey toward living Our values. Because you just can't hold your breath that long. We have our values. And I think that I say, to borrow the most beautiful quote ever, I say that the arc of life is long and it bends towards authenticity, that we claw our way to living our values. And sometimes it's a fight. You know, like the Beastie Boys said, you have to fight for your right to party, but you really have to fight for your. For your ability to live your values fully. And you know, what gets in the way of them? Kids, work, society, expectations. Yeah, all sorts of stuff. So let's see. Let's find out. Look, now we've got the results. I feel like. What was that show? Was it like Jerry Springer where he would like, read the DNA results? It is your baby. I feel like that. But this is sort of that becoming used Jerry Springer moment. Okay, Abe. Okay, so your number one value is actually very interesting that you just said you had a spiritual awakening. It's voice, which is authentic self expression. It's a desire to know who you are and live who you are. That's your top value. Now, interestingly, Your gap is 40%, which suggests you're not all the way there yet.

[C]

I would agree with that.

[B]

Okay. Your second value is family centrism, this desire to put family first. You've mentioned that your third value in a charmingly is belovedness. That's her. That's your romantic partner. And that's the third way. So we've got top one is voice. Family centrism is your second and then your marriage. Now your third value, I said, is belovedness. But it's actually tied with a very interesting value, which is radius. Now radius. I happen to have that value. That's the desire to change the world. That's desire to, like, leave a legacy, to have to be remembered for something. You know, Martin Luther King would have had huge radius and Greta Thunberg, huge radius. Okay. Somebody who wants systemic change. Now, this is not necessarily about helping people on an intimate level. This is about world changing. And you have a huge. You have a huge gap. It's 100%. So whatever. So whatever you're doing right now, I mean, you're doing stuff and you're working, but there's a piece of you that would like to do something that's larger, that is. And I think right now what this is showing is you don't feel that any of your activities are in this world changing category. Now, I will note this as a value. Radius is the number one value for people having a gap Almost no one feels like they're changing the world in the way they want to. So the. The typical gap on radius is 40% and yours is higher than that. But it's not uncommon to feel like I just am not doing. Who feels that they're changing the world Enough. Who? The Pope? I don't know. He might, but I not. It's rare, so that doesn't surprise me. Now let's talk about your following values after that. Then there's what you mentioned is your third value, but it's here showing up as number five. We call it eudaimonia. And it's self care, It's. It's flourishing. It's recreation, it can include sex. It's. It's leisure, it's feeling good. Right. And you said happiness. I think this would fall under your value of eudaimonia. And then the last one I'll mention here is beholders. And that's aesthetics. That's like loving beautiful things.

[A]

Yeah, you don't. He doesn't care about that.

[B]

You don't care about that at all? No, I mean, I think not at all.

[A]

But it's not much.

[B]

Not much. Okay, let's see what your gap is. It just says it shows that you would, I think. Look, beholderism is a proxy sometimes for harmony and for wanting things to be settled and wanting things to feel peaceful. So sometimes beholderism is like I want my world to feel unchaotic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay, so that might be what we're seeing here.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Okay. Okay. All right. So your bottom values are interesting. You have then a value of non sibi, wanting to help other people. And then we have sort of mid range affluence. This is a very important value to take a look at. It's about how important it is for everybody has a number in their head. And for some people, 31% of the population, affluence is their number one value. And. And I don't care why. And I don't judge. Nobody should. If you're not hurting anybody, affluence can be your top value or your bottom value. It's really personal. Right. And it, A lot of it has to do with how you grew up and so forth. For you, it's kind of dead center. It's not driving you, but it's not unimportant to you. And then at number nine.

[A]

Yeah, no, it makes perfect sense. All of it.

[B]

And then at number nine and number ten, and we'll stop with those. At number nine is luminance. That's the fame value that's being known, that's being recognized on the street. You know, I think cardi b Says that when she was young, she used to get down on her knees every single day and pray to be famous. And I. You know, that's number one on luminance. And you've got it at number nine, and then at number 10, you have the God value cosmos, which is the centrality of your faith. For me, that happens to be my number one value. So we have found with all of our research that people tend to have it in their top three or in their bottom three. You kind of have it in the center. And I think, from what I understand, your faith is a part of your lives. Your kids go to a religious school, and so you must talk about faith. But it's not the driving. That's what we're hearing. Is not the driving force of your life. Okay.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I would agree with all of it.

[A]

Unbelievable. Amazing.

[B]

All right. From my results, I don't think it's a 50 little test.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. All right, Aaron, you ready?

[A]

Yes. Oh.

[B]

All right, well, look, your number one value.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Is luminance. It's fame.

[A]

Oh, is it? It is. I'm on the right path, then.

[B]

All right, you are. And you'll look. I'm gonna tell you, if we probably did the values, we should do this. We should get all the real housewives in every city and give them all. Give them all the values.

[A]

I think it's because of a purpose. Like a larger purpose.

[B]

Yes, it can be, for sure the larger purpose.

[A]

I. I feel very strongly that I want to change the world.

[B]

In what way? Let's see where Radius shows up. It's nine. Okay. But it's. You definitely are not doing it as much as you want if you've got a big gap.

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

I said, what? How in how. What way do you want to change?

[A]

Like, the last season, I got to talk about an abortion story that with Glamour magazine, and I touched so many lives.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At a really crucial time.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Clearly in our country. And for me, that was one of the most spectacular things I'd ever been a part of.

[B]

It feels good, doesn't it?

[A]

It felt amazing. I also told my dad on camera he had never known and, like, that it just. It just was a shared experience. And I think that's why I've connected so much with the platform.

[B]

Right. And the whole experience of it has been positive for you.

[A]

I mean, clearly, there are crazy people that are mean, and, like, you have to go through that it's kind of like a hazing. But it has been positive. It's been really positive. I think I've met amazing people. It's changed me in ways. It's been a mirror in ways. And I. I'm not mad at it, that's for sure.

[B]

Your second value is eudaimonia, which is this self care, pleasure, leisure, recreation, or sex, all covered by eudaimonia. You have a pretty big gap.

[A]

I don't think I have any self care. Right, okay.

[B]

Right. Okay. So you got a 50 gap. So not uncommon for a young mother. A lot of kids, you're busy, you're rushing around. And I mean, most mothers in your place, and you're like eudaimonia, starved. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Then we have affluence coming in at number three. All right, so that. And you've got a. You got a gap there. Yeah, a bit of. It's 48%, which suggests that you value affluence, and there's not enough of it. Then at number four, there's cosmos again, the religion, the God value. And. And that's at number four. Interestingly, here we have it, number five, achievement. It's very high value for me. This is the desire to have success that other people can see. It's probably wrapped up with your radius and your luminance desires. And it's. This is. You want to achieve something. Let's see where achievement is for you, number 11. Okay. All right. And then after achievement, there's voice with a pretty big gap, meaning your authentic self. That's 50%. And then work centrism, which is the desire to work. Do you like to work?

[A]

Yeah, I'm kind of a workaholic.

[B]

Then. We don't use that word. We use the word work. We say high work centrism because the.

[A]

Term a holic is like a negative connotation.

[B]

This is alcoholic workaholic. But we just believe that the desire to work is value.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

And how much you want to work is your business.

[A]

And it doesn't bother me. I enjoy it.

[B]

I enjoy it. I love. I love work. And I'm very high on work centrism. It's like three or four for me. And other people are lower, and I no shade. Whatever you want. It's your life. You know, values are not virtues. Virtues we all agree are good, right? Kindness, integrity, honesty, you know, these are all virtues. Society agrees. They're all good. But it's up to you. If you don't want to work, don't Work just totally accept the consequences of it. Just like the consequences of working all the time have consequences, you know, so. All right, and then we, after your work, centrism, there's scope, which is the desire for action and stimulation. And this, the desire to learn, learn, learn, learn and grow. Okay, so those are your top values. And radius, which you mentioned, is a tie with scope. So there's a desire to change something in there.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. All right, so there we have it. Overall, I think the next step for us is to kind of compare because you don't have necessarily overlapping top values. I, I think I. But they may be complementary. You don't have to necessarily have overlapping values. There are definitely values that are in conflict with each other and others that are really in harmony with each other. So your top value, Abe, is voice, and Aaron's is luminance. Yours is about self expression, and yours is about fame or renown. They're not in conflict.

[A]

No, I think they're actually.

[B]

And in fact, I think they're kind of complementary. You respect and understand that each other has a life that wants to be lived externally. Okay. Because people who want voice are saying, look, I don't. I don't want to hide who I am. I want to discover who I am. I want to share it with the world. That's what voice is. And luminance is not too different from that. I mean, I think that.

[A]

I think that's what I intended for that to mean. I don't know that I care about fame per se, but it's more like self expression externally.

[B]

Okay, I. I hear you on that one. I want to look at some of the values that are important. Let's. Let's look at it this way. Your second value, Aaron, is eudaimonia, which is this desire for pleasure and recreation. And for you, Abe, it's down at 5. And I think these are close enough. I think that as a person who does this all the time, I would say these are both core values to you and I. I think it really matters that couples have eudaimonia somewhere near each other. Okay. Because if you've got somebody who wants to have fun and have a lot of sex and pleasure and, and, and recreate and organize your life around those kinds of moments. And then you've got a member of the couple who is like work, centrism, achievement, you know, radius, and they've got eudaimonia down at 15. It's just going to be a pain in the neck to play on the weekend, let alone Your life. Right. And I also think that for certain marriages, and I've seen this myself, in certain marriages, a lot of things can go wrong. But Eudaimonia can save the day when it's actually sex. Okay. It can say. It can get you through a lot of really rough stuff. And so I like it. I like very much to see how close your Eudaimonia values are. And I don't know what saves the day for you, but that might be something. Just. Just saying, okay, we have fun. You could fight. You do have fun. I think you do.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's a big thing for us, which we talk about a lot, is the nature of fun, especially as we have young kids.

[A]

It's like, when you stop having fun with your partner, I don't really know what the point. Like, it's almost like, what's the point?

[B]

It happens all the time.

[A]

Yeah. It becomes so serious.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And sometimes we. We have serious moments. Many times we have, like, many serious moments. But then it's like, we'll go out to dinner and we'll laugh and be goofy and, like, then we have fun again.

[B]

Right. You're still having fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And the good news is that you both value fun. Can I bring up an awkward.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Topic. Okay. All right. Abe, we got belovedness at number three. Okay. And that means my marriage is. Is top. Is one of my top values. No.

[C]

Where is first?

[A]

Where's mine? Well, I don't. I don't remember saying no to that.

[B]

Okay, so it's number 15.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Which would mean that.

[A]

He'S gonna kill me.

[B]

No, I think that it doesn't. Okay, listen, I'm not gonna be Mamby Pabby here. It does not mean that you don't value your marriage. It doesn't mean it at all. It means that when we rank order it, other stuff came in first, came in before the marriage. Now, you do have family centrism. Higher. It's at number 10. But you may be in a period in your life where I don't know how to explain it because I don't know you well enough. But maybe it's just the marriage is so. Maybe it's so solid to you.

[A]

I was literally the words out of my mouth.

[B]

Okay, so explain.

[A]

Like, I feel like my marriage is solid, and I feel like we are good, so.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't think it's something like, I'm worried about that we need to, like, nurture so much overly. Like, I feel like there are all these other things, like, I've Completely forgotten about who I am, which we talk about all the time. Like, I just have like all these big goals that I really want to achieve. Like that's in the forefront of my mind.

[B]

I think that's it.

[C]

I think that's it. And I think in a weird way, that mind ranks so high, enables you to do all those other things maybe, which is like. Which is. There's a harmony in that, I think.

[B]

Because.

[C]

That'S one of the roles I've realized. This goes to the luminous, I think it was. We talk about this part of my self discovery and I had this whole spiritual awakening that I was telling you about was this realization that I don't have a desire to be famous. And I really like but really realizing it. Where I think my role has always been more of a behind the scenes type of role. I play bass in a band. It's always just like the subtle indirect influence. And so I think that actually kind of lines up with that.

[B]

Where we actually have it in this tool built into the algorithm, that it's a conflict when both people have luminance high. Because that's a very hard thing when both people are vying for it. And I would say for sure your lower luminance enables and facilitates your higher 100%. And so I see a really, really complimentary thing.

[A]

And I think that Abe, in a weird way, I mean, we haven't spoken about this directly, but like Abe likes that I have that. And like he drives it in many ways. I mean, he's entertainment attorney.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

Reads my contract like, you know what I mean? Like he's really behind the scenes driving that because it gives us the opportunity for a lot of the things that we're doing, like our business.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you know, so it's like a weird unspoken.

[B]

I mean, I think this is one of the most, like the fact that you have very complimentary eudaimonia and then you've got this big disconnect on luminance that yours is high and yours is lower. These are very, very good things to see in that you are helping each other in this way. And I think you're supportive to each other. And sometimes another value like this is agency. Agency is the desire to drive the bus to be the boss. And in my marriage, when my husband was living, he has very high agency. Of course he couldn't take the test because we didn't have it then. But I know him, he had high, high agency. It was probably number four for him. And my agency is extremely low. It's like 11 or 12. Like, I just am more collaborative. I don't feel the need to own decisions. I think. I don't know if our marriage would have worked if I had high agency. So I. Let's check where yours is, Abe. You've got agency at 13, which is like, you're very collaborative in that way. And yours is at 11. Okay, so this is interesting.

[A]

But we collaborate.

[B]

Yeah, that's exactly it. You're both huge collaborators. That works perfectly. That's very, very copacetic.

[A]

We both kind of like when there are big decisions, like we all. I lean on him for those decisions. And I feel like you do the same. Like we always talk about.

[B]

I love that nobody wants to. I mean, for you, this works very well. I think the trouble is when one person. When both people are high.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think it works just fine when one is high and one is low, both are medium or both are low.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you've got the. Both are low now. But getting back to the belovedness, I don't want to run away from the fact that you have it very high and you have very low. It may be again, another enabling thing, like luminance is that you got the relationship. You're making sure the relationship is cared for, is tended, is healthy, is maintained, allowing.

[C]

Erin, this is very interesting because she will complain, not complain, but comment that I don't as much like the date night stuff, which I get. But there's a lot of ways, I.

[A]

Think men in general, this just says that you care about it, not that you're doing well.

[C]

What were you saying?

[B]

That in general, our data would show that men care about belovedness about 70% more than women do.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yes. I know. We're just replicating this data right now. It's actually accurate. But it looks that, you know, the great trope in society, the great story in society is that women are very crazy about the relationship.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

It's very Kabbalistic. It's a theory, like in Kabbalah, that women are the vessel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And men fill the vessel.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

And it's very true if you think about it. Even like anatomy wise, you know, it's like we. We need to be fulfilled and men like to be givers constantly.

[B]

So we are seeing this data.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

Really excited to explore more. We're cutting it now by. By generation and all sorts of other things, but it seems clear that across generations that men place much higher value on being in an intimate relationship. And. And women tend to have a couple of Higher values. So in this way, your higher belovedness than hers is absolutely standard. Okay. This is. We always see it almost, you know, between 40 and 70% higher in this way. I think it's. I. I like it just for you having a conversation about it. Like it for you to say, you know, look, my belovedness is not feeling appreciated right now. Or, you know, I like the language of talking about the value of where the relationship is in the. In, you know, like, how important is the relationship, how much is it an organizing principle where it really gets uncomfortable. And I don't think you have this at all. Is when one person has belovedness at number one and another person has it way down at 14 or 15. This is too far a disconnect.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

This is a. Unless the person who has it at number one has just said, look, I'll take him or her any way I can get them. The person with the high belovedness can start to feel unappreciated. So remember.

[C]

I've had that in the past. As, you know, so have I. Yeah, you have. I think I'm generalizing, but I think I can comfortably say that I think modern society with men in general, that there is a tendency for men to be underappreciated in the relationship. Not to say that their spouses don't appreciate them. The feeling of underappreciation. A lot of my male friends have said the same thing. We talk about this.

[B]

Part of what they're feeling is women's relatively lower value of belovedness. I think that that's what they're feeling is women just in general will tend to have family centrism above belovedness. You do. Some of them have achievement above it. They have radius above it. And then the men are like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm not feeling appreciated for my. How much I care for this relationship. But the thing about it is it's. It's infinitely fixable with language. Remember, how do you ever say to your kids, there's words for everything? I mean, there are words for this. And it can be like, okay, look, there's a little bit of stuff that we're working with here, which is, in general, men want to feel more appreciated. Men value belovedness more, and it puts it on us as we build our relationships to sort of acknowledge their values.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

By the way, what I said just now about this was stuff that we've talked about. It does not feel like that now.

[A]

Yeah. So we are very communicative. We talk about all this stuff. And I feel like We. Yeah, we've gotten to a place where.

[C]

By the way, it's not just words, it's touch.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Huge thing for me and a lot of men. I know where it just need to.

[A]

Like his arm.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like a baby little arm stroke this one.

[C]

No words needed.

[B]

I know. I think there's this language now where men say, my love language is touch. I mean, they've almost been trained.

[A]

And I'm like, just don't touch me.

[B]

I know. Look at the kids have been touching me all day, taking my hands off my face.

[A]

Move away from it.

[B]

But it's important to have the language around it. Right? You. As long as you know it and you can talk about it, it's just keeping that dialogue open.

[A]

Yeah. I think, like, for women, I mean, I'm generalizing a little bit, but I think for women, it's like so much other stuff that gets in our mind, that gets in the way of touch, physical touch. When even I are communicating and we're like, in a really good place in our marriage, touch is not a problem.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's like all the other things, like the kids and the this and did you call this person and did you remember to take out the garbage and like all the little things that we carry as women because we're. I mean, at least I'm so detail oriented. I manage so many things, which he does in a different way. But it's like, you know, learning the balance, learning how to appreciate his other way of dealing with things. And then it's like once you get through all those little things and you feel like you can breathe, then it's like, okay, yeah, we can touch. Like, you know what I mean?

[B]

I know exactly what you mean.

[A]

I mean, you have four kids.

[B]

I know. I'm smiling. Because when my kids were your kids age, I used to run all the time. I used to run on the treadmill because God forbid I leave the house. And so I was running on the treadmill and I used to listen repeatedly to Piece of Me by Britney Spears. I love Britney Spears. Okay, fine. I love her. And you know, like, everyone wants a piece of me. And I remember saying to my kids, I got off the treadmill because they're like, okay, can you now do this and that? And I quoted to them, brittany, the Great Britney, saying, y' all just want a piece of me, right? My kids said to me, yeah, but, Mom, Britney's famous. Just like, shut up about yourself. But I think that there can be a time in your life where you feel like everyone wants A piece of you and then somebody's touching you and it feels like they just want another piece of you.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But I think when things settle down, there's room for it. That's what you're saying. Yeah. All right, let us.

[C]

Maybe the touch is giving a piece to you that you're interesting.

[B]

Oh, I like that. Interesting take. Yeah, that's an interesting take. I'm gonna.

[A]

I mean, he's carrying the belovedness.

[B]

Right. I know. I think this is about your belovedness difference.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay. And it's an interesting way to think about. About what you're trying to do. I wanna just talk to wrap this up. You've been unbelievable. This is so much fun. I could do this all day. And I think it's useful, I mean, to talk about your values.

[A]

This opens up so interesting.

[B]

Will talk about is you both. And I want to bring it up because I think it's actually. It is already a bridge. I don't know if you're talking about it enough. And that is you both. What this test shows me is that you both want more radius in your life. You both have a big gap on it. And this is a desire to change the world in very systemic ways. Okay. That there's something that you want to make better in the world. And this is a. I love it about you. It's a similarity. The thing. Your values are slight. You're. You have them in different places in the ranking. Not that different. But what's similar, what's complementary is that you both have huge gaps. Okay. You both have some. And I would say seek together ways to close that gap. Okay. Why? Because it will be fun. And, you know, maybe it's. Maybe it's an inventive new business where a portion of it goes something to changing the world in some way. Maybe it's to start a. I don't know. There's a million different ways you can come up with it. But I do think it's a shared vat. It's. It is the shared part of it, despite there's a small. And I'm telling you it's not that big a difference between where radius is. You've got it at 4 and you have it at. At. Well, I guess it would be given the ties here. Probably around six. That's not that big a difference. Okay. The. I think it's exciting for you. I think it's. It's a sort of a shared activity as your life unfolds and your journey unfolds is to find ways to. To close that gap together and express your radius more because it's definitely a value for both of you. So I love that.

[C]

It's funny because I feel like we've talked about this loosely, at least with the value, with the gap. I think part of it is the way I view it is still in building mode of setting up the infrastructure of our lives, our kids, the systems, the routines and all that. And I don't know if this is just me saying it to myself, but I feel like once we have that really just balanced, then we're able to focus on closing that gap. For me, I think just the main thing is just I want people to remember that they're human. And I say this in contrast of the digital age.

[B]

You kind of describe this stage setting you're doing now. We're putting everything in place so that we can close our radius gap later. And I'm just gonna say in general, people do this all the time. I urge people not to postpone the closing of gaps.

[A]

That's. I love that because it's so true. It's like when this is in place, then I'll do that. When that is in place, I actually think about this all the time. My dad used to do that all the time. When this one goes to college, then I'll do this. When this one moves out of the house and I find myself doing it and oftentimes I'm like, why am I doing this? But it's such a good point. Like try to close the gap now or at least have conversations around how to do it.

[B]

Because even if you do it in micro doses, right? You know, even if you just do something on a weekend, right? Like you go to some kind, you go on a sort of come on, you know, just even if a vacation is built around in some way giving back, you know, I, I don't know, I would say just be aware that there. This is a gap. You both are feeling it and it be. It's a very, very nice thing to do together to try to close if it's, you know.

[A]

And what's really interesting about what you're saying is that at the exact same time you and I are both going through this period of our lives, we're like, remember yourself. Yeah, maybe that's like our message. You know, it's like it's very hard to remember yourself when you're a parent and you work. Like, it's really, it's really challenging.

[B]

I mean I have in my, I have a. I do the becoming you methodology, the three day IMMERSIVE and intensive class. And I am always very sensitive to the moms in the room because they're there, because they have forgotten who they are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're there to find out who they are again. And there's a moment where we're doing some of these exercises and I can feel them starting to cry because. Because as they are remembering and rediscovering who they are, it's like, I missed you.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And it chills.

[A]

Literally. And like, beyond that, even, like the working moms, like, I. So people don't think that I forgot myself, right. Because I work all the time, but it's like I work all the time without. I've forgotten what the purpose even was. Because you're just like, when you're waking up and doing the snacks and doing the kids and then they come home from school and then you're just working and you're not taking a moment to say, like, what do you want?

[B]

Who are you? Irene? I remember days like that when I would. Like at the end of the day, Jack would say, how was your day? And I said. And I would answer, I survived.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was just survival. Right. And it's like crazy. Remembers themselves in that mode. Right. And. And so I think you both are this. In this incredible process right now of. I love that you're doing it together, of self discovery and affirmation of each other. And you have every bridge built. And I love looking this. You know, there's nothing here at all that's jumping out at me as like, oh, red flag. And believe me, I would tell you if I saw it. And. Yeah, right. But there's still. There's still work and there's still conversation, but that is marriage. Just such a journey. It's. And every day, you know, it's not like you put it on the shelf and you say, look at our great marriage. It's like you take it off every single day and you dust it and you nurture it and you take care of it.

[C]

There's seasons to it, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, Abe just got us tickets to the opera, so he won the points of date night.

[B]

Did you? Tickets to the opera. That's very fancy.

[A]

I'm very excited.

[B]

Very fancy.

[A]

Very excited.

[B]

Oh, wow. I hope you have a great time. I hope it's a great night. I'll actually not be there because I'll be home drinking my mascot.

[A]

You gotta come over and see our townhouse and give me tips because yours is stunning. Thank you.

[B]

It's great having you on. Thank you for Coming on Becoming, it's sort of our inaugural version of Becoming Us. I think it's fun to do send all your couples my way and send couples my way because I love doing Becoming Us. I think this is a, this is a function of a, a beautiful application of the tool that is also, you know, helps people remember and remember and remember who they are.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

And so they can live more fully into themselves. Anyway, this has been becoming you. I'm Susie Welch. Thank you so much to our guests. Aaron is fantastic to have you. You can find them on their podcast, which is called Come Together. And also you can find Aaron's cookbook, She's a Host, which is coming out October 28th. It's apparently got mezcal recipes in it, so I'm going to check it out immediately. And so but really, just thank you for being here and doing becoming you with me and, and today becoming us. I can't wait to see you for our next best episode ever next week. Until then, have a great week. And this show is produced by the amazing and fabulous Mikey Robley, Eliza Zinn, Issa Lamson and Hallie Reiner. And if you liked what you heard. And I'm on my next. He's praying that you did. Follow me, Uzie Welch, across all my platforms, Everywhere, Instagram and LinkedIn and even TikTok. Although somehow Tik Tok doesn't seem to work for me. And don't forget to leave a rating and a review below because a lot of people have. And I love you, you people who have. It's not all my children because there's just too many of them. I will see you next time. And until then, keep becoming it.