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- [00:00]
A
Foreign again. It's okay.
- [00:09]
B
We're back.
- [00:09]
A
We're back.
- [00:10]
B
We're back at it.
- [00:11]
A
All right. And I'm actually. I want to say I'm starting this podcast. Very sad. Because you don't like my shoes.
- [00:18]
B
I said they were cute. I just didn't have an emotional reaction to them.
- [00:20]
A
That's right. You did not. You certainly did not. All right. Hi, I'm Susie Welch. This is Becoming you, the podcast where each week we break, break open like a pomegranate on a summer day. Good metaphor. What you should do with your life, your purpose. I mean, that's what it's about. I wrote a book called Becoming youg. I teach a class at NYU on the same topic, and I don't know, I'm old enough to say it's my area of expertise, which is to be a purpose doula, to use your words. And on Becoming youg, we talk about the journey to figuring out who you are. But we have a special sort of miniseries, buried within Becoming youg, where I speak with Dustin Liu, who's on my team, about work, work, work, work, work, about careers. Now, careers are obviously a part of figuring out what to do with your life, but we talk directly. Like, really, the blocking and tackling of careers. Why are we doing this? One, we think it's really interesting and important. Two, we get a lot of DMs from our wonderful listeners, and now you're one of them. Whether this is your first podcast or your fourth 40th, you are now part of the Becoming youg Love Fest community. And people ask, okay, I've got this career dilemma. And today we're going to talk about interviews. You know, and Becoming you. Becoming you is. Can be very existential. I mean, we're talking about 20,000, 40,000ft. What should I do with my life? I mean, like, I talk about, like, Joan of Arc when I teach Becoming you, because, like, you know, she had her sword that said, I am not afraid to do this. You know, I'm not afraid to die. I was born to do this. Like, that is that. That's big stuff. And in fact, I remember when I was in my PhD examination, I remember one of the examiners saying to me, this is very existential stuff, isn't it? I was like, yes, it sure is. But I always say that you've got to be existential before you get tactical, because you find out your purpose, and eventually you're gonna have to go get an interview so you can land that purpose. I mean, unless your purpose is not Related to a job. Maybe your purpose ends up being working in dog rescue. I actually had a friend who was a lawyer who who just retired and went completely into dog rescue. That's his purpose. Thank God he's doing it. Thank God for people who do do that. It all comes down to dog rescue. You notice how I mention it every single podcast? I do. All right, so but when we get down to interview, this is as tactical as becoming you gets. I love the blend and so I'm really psyched to be talking about interviewing and what it takes to ace an interview in this podcast.
- [02:47]
B
The art and science of an interview is so important, Susie, on both sides. I love that you're bringing in your experience as a hiring manager. And I'm going to be peppering in own thoughts as someone who has interviewed for a bunch of jobs and things that I know my friends are asking me right now as they start interviewing.
- [03:02]
A
Yes, you're the voice of your generation. Oh, Susie, I'm so happy you're here. I think you should introduce yourself a little bit because not everybody is an oldster. With Becoming youg, our podcast. What? Tell us about you.
- [03:12]
B
My name is Dustin. I am the Senior Associate Director at the NYU Initiative On Purpose and Flourishing. And Suzy and I just recently crossed our one year mark of working together.
- [03:19]
A
Yeah.
- [03:19]
B
And so, so much of this work has included conversations about careers. And I know that when people are finding their purpose, they're also thinking about their careers as well.
- [03:26]
A
Almost inevit. You have to, because most of us have to wake. Wake up every day and work. So when you think about your purpose, you often do think about careers.
- [03:34]
B
And when you're thinking about interviews. I'm super curious as a hiring manager, Suzy, what are things that you're thinking about? Just for people to keep in mind, what are they looking for or what are you looking for when you're seeking a candidate?
- [03:45]
A
Okay, well, the first thing, there's two things you're looking for. You're looking for competence, right? You're hiring somebody to do a job. And so the first line is like, can they do the actual work I need them and want them to do? Can they actually do the work technically? And the problem is, as we discussed on our last episode together, which we would love people to go back and listen to, that an interview is typically a conversation between two liars. And so their resume has told you a lot of things that they can do. You don't always know if they can do it and you really want to dig, dig, dig. And so the Conversations are around competence. But the second one thing that you really need to know and want to know, and it's really hard to know, is cultural fit. You know, will they work as part of your team? Now you want to desperately avoid what I call in my management class at NYU Stern School of Business, yo bro syndrome, where you get everybody's exactly the same, okay? Where everybody laughs at the same things and thinks the same way. Because that kind of. That's not great. I mean, you want to have some diversity of culture on your team, but not too much, right? And you want to make sure the person is going to be happy and you're going to like each other and that they're not an asshole. That's hugely important because sometimes the most competent people are jerks. So that's what you're. So from my seat, when I'm looking to hire somebody, I'm thinking, is this person competent? Wait, I want to add a third C. While we're talking, I want to add curiosity. Why? Because I had an interview the other day and the person was competent, possibly a cultural fit. But this person, who I'm being very vague about, had absolutely no curiosity about the work. This person did not ask me a single question about what we do and why. I know you're nervous in your interview, I know you are. But you gotta ask them questions about the work to show that your brain's in the game. And just think back to our interview together, Dustin, when I interviewed you for the first time to come join Becoming Universe, that six hour conversation that we had where the restaurant shut down and the waiters were in the parking lot saying, those people are never going to leave. You were so curious. You just wanted to know every single thing about what was going on.
- [05:47]
B
I wanted to know what I was getting myself into, right?
- [05:48]
A
Yes.
- [05:49]
B
And so much of that requires some enthusiasm about the work itself. And I think what you're saying is a candidate needs to feel excited about the work. I love that you always say you should be saying the words, I really want this job.
- [06:01]
A
Yeah, imagine it happens all the time. People go into interviews and at no point in the interview do they say this thing and they think it's cringe. They don't say, I'd really like this job. I mean, I really want this job. Do you know what that is? It's like a. I don't know. I don't know from personal experience that it feels like heroin because I'm the biggest square who ever lived. But I think that it. It's what this Rush of somebody looking at you and saying, I want your job. Do not underestimate. So when you are going for an interview and you've interviewed, you've had a lot of jobs and you're very young at your very young age, like I'm looking for competence, cultural fit and curiosity. What are you looking for?
- [06:38]
B
You know, when I am on the other side of the table, I also am like a chronic interviewer. When I, between the years of 2020 and 2024, I decided that I was going to interview for jobs every month. So every single month I was applying to jobs. I'm not applying for jobs right now. Susie's face is about, I'm not applying for jobs right now. But in those years what I did was I wanted to stay fresh. And what I was noticing is that in those interviews I had a good sense of what I was looking for in an employer and so much of it had to do around my growth. And I think what you need to do on both sides is to have clarity. You just described how someone is a cultural fit. What if a company doesn't have enough data for you to understand what the cultural fit is? What is the culture of a company?
- [07:15]
A
Well, that's bad.
- [07:16]
B
We've worked with so many companies that don't even know their values, don't even know their vision, their mission. I mean, if you're in that situation and you're trying to discern the culture. For me, if I didn't see a clear culture, it kind of felt like a no, no way.
- [07:28]
A
This is like saying somebody doesn't have a personality because they can't describe it. Whether you can describe your culture or not, you have a culture. And I would say it's a gigantic red flag. Massive waving red flag. If a company cannot describe its culture to you, it has one. It's probably pretty toxic. And so look, when you're young and you're interviewing, beggars can't be choosers and you're going to a place that's going to pay you the most money, the things most interesting job, which will be the stepping stone to the next job. And so sometimes you can't say, well, what's your culture? And get the answer that you want. I want to not be in a place where I'm like not acknowledging the fact that sometimes you're just trying to pay the ren. But if you need to understand, if a company can't say to you our culture is this, and then you see with your own eyes that they're not lying about Their culture. And then you've got to ask yourself, do I fit in? Do we have the same values? We had a candidate come the other day and go through the whole interview process and she asked each one of us separately on different occasions about our work life balance. And she kept on saying to people, there's work life balance here. Right? And everybody was like, we're a startup and this happens to be something that this, this is not a gigantic value in this particular organization. As we grow, grow, grow, that it's like, you know, we text on weekends sometimes because we really care about the work or something's falling apart. And I got a. This weekend I texted Maddie, who doesn't even work here anymore, because I needed to find a slide. And guess what? On a Saturday down in New Orleans, where I'm sure she was not, you know, knitting, not ready to go, not knitting. She answered me. So because she was part of our culture, it's important to know that stuff. Look, let's just pull back. You're sitting in the chair, you're being interviewed, it's going well. All right? And of course this is never going to happen to you again because you have lifetime employment with us. But I would say that if the company has not volunteered to you what its culture is, they'll always ask you, do you have any questions for us? And you'll say something like, I would love to hear more about your culture. Like, what are some of the, how's work done around here? How do you relate to each other? How would you describe your culture? Now, this is a delicate thing, right? Because until you've been offered the job, you are the seller and they are the buyer. So you don't want to seem entitled, like, tell me about your culture. Like, I want to check you out. So again, you, it's a lot of it is in how you put it. But I think you need to ask directly, what's your culture? I want to be a part of it. I know. You might even say something like, I, you know, it's always very important that you understand culture going in so you can be a part of it and get with the cultural norms. Tell me about your culture.
- [09:50]
B
I love asking who succeeds here? And I love the question, who shouldn't work here?
- [09:55]
A
Yes, I like that question too.
- [09:57]
B
Like, what kind of person really should not work here?
- [09:59]
A
This is one of my favorite questions to ask. I do it way at the end because it's very off putting and it's very arresting. But if you feel like you're about to get an offer or you've gotten the offer, then I think a wonderful question to somebody that you've developed rapport with is, hey, I have one last question or I have an important question. What kind of person should not work at this company? And usually people are so taken aback from it. You get all sorts of real stuff. You get, well, you know, somebody who thinks they're gonna work in each department, like we are specialists here, you need to know that. And I wanna say one thing about growth. You mentioned that when you're sitting in the chair and you're being interviewed, you're thinking, how much can I grow? Here the person interviewing you is thinking, how much can this person contribute to our bottom line? I mean, they want you to grow. Any good human being wants you to grow. But that's not their first priorities. Not your career growth. Their first priority is your contribution. It's just, you gotta keep that in your head.
- [10:49]
B
Absolutely. So, pulling back for a moment, I wanna talk about preparing for the Inter at Becoming youg always look for people who prepare like crazy.
- [10:57]
A
Yes.
- [10:57]
B
So tell me a little bit more about this, like Nancy Drew esque detective work. Like, do you have stories of people who have interviewed with you in the past whose preparation has really shown up in a way that you could really acknowledge?
- [11:08]
A
This is the most blocking and tackling advice I can give anybody going through the interview process, which is that the person who's interviewing you is not interviewing just you. They've talked to 10 people, 15 people. And one thing that you can do to differentiate yourself is, is be very prepared. I have done a lot of interviewing lately where I'll say, I always start the interview and I say, hi, you know Susie Welch here, you know, so thank you very much for applying for this. Let me give you some background, but I don't want to bore you. Why don't you drop me? Why don't you let me know what you've done to prepare for this interview? And I have heard everything from, oh, I think I just looked at your website and all the way to. I read your book. I have listened to four podcasts. I spoke to a friend who has, you know, took your course or whatever. And obviously what you're looking for is somebody who's so interested in the job they've done the work of preparing. I get there. People who've done so many interviews, they think, what a waste of time. I'm not investing an hour or two of my time to prepare for something that's a long shot. I get it. But I don't know. I think it's a very shorthand, a very short sighted way of going about things. You. You want to come in because you want to come in with some ideas.
- [12:20]
B
Yeah.
- [12:21]
A
And you want to say, look, I'm sorry. So I'm so deeply engaged already with what you're doing. I have this question which is quite advanced. I have this idea for you. I mean, I would do this differently.
- [12:34]
B
You want to demonstrate your ability to contribute right off the bat.
- [12:36]
A
Right, Exactly. So I am stunned by lack of preparation. There was a time a couple of years ago I was interviewing for an administrative role and I tried this one thing where every single time a person came at the time, I was writing a column for Business Week, and when they walked in the door, I'd say, hi, I just finished a column. And they would say something like, oh, that's great. Right. Sort of said that to a person. And then one day I answered the door and a woman named Megan Burke was standing there and I said, oh, I just finished a column. And she said, what was it about?
- [13:02]
B
And that curiosity caught your eye right away.
- [13:04]
A
I couldn't believe it. I was like, she wants to know what the work is. I also ask people in the course of that interview, and I do it all the time now. What did you do to prepare for this interview? Tell me about what you did.
- [13:15]
B
And I, I love that question. So people get to share with you.
- [13:18]
A
Yes.
- [13:18]
B
What they did to prepare.
- [13:19]
A
Right. And again, you hear everything from like, oh, nothing, I've been really busy at work all the way to. I actually, I remember one woman who said to me once, I drove to your house last night to make sure there was parking. I thought, oh, that is somebody who's resourceful.
- [13:31]
B
That's someone who's thinking ahead.
- [13:32]
A
Resourceful. Yeah, I like that. Now, of course, for whatever role you're interviewing for, what you're looking for in their prep varies. But you want people to care enough that they're coming fully loaded with ideas. And tell us about what you did to prepare for your interview with me.
- [13:47]
B
With you. I did a lot of work reading the manuscript you had sent over, Becoming youg. I looked over the websites, I looked at NYU's culture, I looked at what was happening in the company. I was looking at all of these different aspects of your career, reading your assets. Susie, here's the thing about the Internet that I think that some people still don't get. You can find things out about people before you arrive.
- [14:06]
A
Right.
- [14:07]
B
You LinkedIn people before you interview them.
- [14:09]
A
Right.
- [14:09]
B
The first time that you meet someone, it probably isn't the first time that they're hearing about you or seeing you. Right. We have a digital trail online. I'll never forget, I was in an interview a few years ago and someone referred to my high school graduation speech, which is on YouTube. Deep, deep YouTube that my mom posted years ago.
- [14:24]
A
I love your mother so much. She posted your high school graduation speech.
- [14:27]
B
High school graduation speech. And it comes up in interviews because it's on the Internet. What do you look for when you're scanning people's LinkedIns or scanning people's public presence?
- [14:35]
A
I'm sorry, I have to pause and ask what your high school graduation speech was about.
- [14:38]
B
It was.
- [14:40]
A
Come on, what'd you say?
- [14:41]
B
My high school graduation speech.
- [14:42]
A
Did you say, you're gonna be a voice of the new generation or what did you say?
- [14:45]
B
No, no, no, no, no. It was about my class, about how special my class was. I'll show it to you later.
- [14:49]
A
Was your graduating class really that special?
- [14:51]
B
It was really special.
- [14:52]
A
Okay, all right, let's move on.
- [14:53]
B
School class of 2025.
- [14:54]
A
Okay.
- [14:55]
B
2015. Herrick's high school class of 2015. I didn't just graduate from high school.
- [14:58]
A
Yeah. All right, so. All right, so you remind me of your question, Justin, as we became distracted by my. By you were saying, I want to know what I'm looking for in LinkedIn.
- [15:08]
B
When you are Googling someone's name and you're scanning through Google, what are you looking for? What are you looking for on someone's LinkedIn? Just for someone to keep in mind what they should be putting out there.
- [15:15]
A
Okay, that's a really good question. I have Two thoughts about LinkedIn. Number one, I do check everybody's link in. I want to see how frequently they pose to they're connected to how much thought they put into their public profile. I'm also really looking for skills. I'm looking at their jobs, and I'm looking very closely saying, wait, wait, wait. Do they actually have these skills? Here's this other thing I want to say about LinkedIn. When you apply for a job on LinkedIn, you have the ability to write a note with your application. And those stand out. I mean, if you want the job, write a note explaining why you want the job. As a person like me who goes through hundreds of resumes, when somebody says, I really like this job because of X, Y and Z, I'm like, thank you. Thank you for giving me your context. Do not sleep on that functionality. That is a very good functionality for you to take Advantage of if you really want a job.
- [16:04]
B
I want to talk about how the interview actually starts even before you get in front of that person, either on zoom, on a phone or in person. Right. So we talk a lot about how the interview starts when you have your first email.
- [16:15]
A
Yeah.
- [16:15]
B
I mean, I have been in situations in other organizations where someone is so rude to our administrative assistant.
- [16:22]
A
Yes.
- [16:22]
B
That they get cut before they even arrive. I mean, tell me more about this from your experience, how the data actually starts getting collected even before you start talking to your hiring manager.
- [16:33]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it does. It starts with the first communication. Do you think people don't talk in companies? Like, this guy was really rude. He didn't get back to me for three days. It was very. Everybody talks to each other. And so you're looking for all sorts of signs. You're gonna have to work with this person. And so you're trying to. You're trying to suss them out. Because everybody's gonna put a good face on during the interview and you want to know. And actually this brings me to references. So from my seat. I always talk to references because you need to have some kind of third party confirmation of what this person is like. I spoke to your references and everybody confirmed you were perfect.
- [17:05]
B
Oh, I know.
- [17:06]
A
But actually they gave me good advice about. About how to manage you. It's very hard to find people who are willing to speak candidly. You've got to do the work, but also you've got to give references to people. And so when they're asking, give them references and actually then do the hard work of preparing your references. I want this job. This is what they're looking for. Please help me get this job. And you gotta put in the work. You gotta put in the work.
- [17:28]
B
So, Susie, I have a lot of friends who are leaving jobs that they are not super satisfied in.
- [17:33]
A
Yes.
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B
And maybe they're just poor performers actually at work. It just doesn't fit their aptitudes. What advice would you have for them if they don't have many references that they can draw on? This is something that I'm hearing a lot.
- [17:42]
A
Right. Again, I think that the answer is honesty, where you would say to the hiring manager, look, I am leaving this job in a very rough place. It didn't work out for these reasons. I own this piece of it. This is not going to be a good reference. Look, sometimes a good hiring manager will find. Will call those people anyway and then usually what happens is the person says, I'm not going to give a reference. I think you have to be very candid and say, I cannot give you the reference from this company. Or I feel uncomfortable doing it because it didn't really work out. And my ownership of is this, and my. Their ownership of it is that. You don't want to look like you're blaming it on them. Nobody wants to hire somebody who says it was all their fault. I was a victim. You don't want it because you think you're the next victim. And then you got to. But you've got to. You know, one of the things you've got to do in your career is be collecting references by your good performance and your deep relational abilities so that you know, if it comes in a moment where you need a reference, you can say, I've got these five references.
- [18:35]
B
Totally.
- [18:35]
A
You can't. You can't burn every bridge. You've got to have references in your pocket. You're just. You just got to.
- [18:43]
B
What advice do you have for people who are starting to feel nervous in the interview? I mean, people are in those conversations, and people are feeling really nervous, and people are stumbling. What advice do you have as someone who has interviewed and has been interviewing a bunch of different candidates?
- [18:56]
A
I have crazy advice, but I'll stand by it. And the advice is this. Say it out loud. If you're starting to become nervous in an interview, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying to the hiring manager, I'm actually feeling very nervous right now. I want this job so badly, and I'm not sure this interview is going as well as I'd like. I want to make sure you understand why I'm the right person for this job. That vulnerability, that humanity, that candor could blow the barn doors off. And frankly, if it doesn't, you don't want to work there. So I think if you're beginning to feel nervous or if you feel an interview is going off the rails, name that elephant in the room. I know that sounds so audacious, but I'd love it if somebody spoke candidly to me in an interview. I mean, I remember during our interview, you said to me, let's get real. And I want to get real. I want to skip the bullshit that goes on in interviews. I want to talk about the real stuff. I just hired somebody to come onto our team, and I think he was wondering, like, when's this going to happen? When am I getting the letter? And I said to him, I'm sorry, we have to spend some time together. I'm going to describe the job on its worst day.
- [19:59]
B
Yeah.
- [19:59]
A
And I sat him down. I said, this is the job. On the very worst day. And he was so real in his responses. He said, you can't believe the work I've done in my life. I've done work that's like X, Y and Z. If that's the worst day, please get me the letter. And we. Anyway, we happily agreed. And I think that if you feel the interview is falling apart or if you feel like you're not saying something that's landing.
- [20:23]
B
Name it.
- [20:23]
A
Name it. Say it. Hey, look, I want this job. I was looking forward to this interview very much. Am I. Are you hearing from me what you hope to hear in this interview? And if not, where can I fill in those gaps? It shows a huge amount of maturity and professionalism to do that. I know what I'm saying sounds hard. Just do it.
- [20:40]
B
Let's close out with maybe one final closing takeaway. If someone is listening to this podcast and is about to go for an interview tomorrow, what do you want them to know? Susie?
- [20:48]
A
I want them to be prepared. I want them to want the job and say so. And I want them to be candid and I want them to show their humanity in the interview. Okay. I want them to show their humanity in the interview, along with their competence. Show who you really are, because that's who you're going to show up as every single day. If it doesn't. If it's not a match, it's not a. It's not a match. And you're going to find out soon enough. So good luck. Getting a good job. Getting the job that you can grow in and thrive in is one of the greatest things can ever happen to you in your life. The interview really matters. The interview is the stage setting. Sometimes we never crawl out of the hole we get into in the interview, and it doesn't go very well. But I want to say I'm rooting for you.
- [21:28]
B
The last thing that I think I love your thoughts on. A lot of my friends have these amazing experiences, but they don't know how to talk about it. Susie. They don't know how to talk about their experiences. I'm curious, what advice do you have for folks who are in a situation where they feel like they have a lot of experiences, but they don't know how to talk about their experiences?
- [21:46]
A
Let's just get very existential for a moment again, because this is a big issue with people who are on the job market and people who are specially seeking to have jobs in their area of Transcendence, their purpose. You must have a narrative of yourself. You must have your story knit together so that when you go in, they're not asking questions and you're kind of randomly answering them. You are going in with a narrative. I was this person. I seek to become this person. I have these values. I have these aptitudes. I have these interests. My purpose is X. That is why I belong here. You have to have a narrative of yourself. What are you waiting for then? When you got on a job interview, I want you to be real, but I want you to go loaded with a story. And all of those experience are not. You know, they're here, they're there. Yeah. Do the work, knit them together, Come up with a narrative, and in the interview, tell the narrative. Tell the narrative. All right. Well, Dustin, once again, I gotta thank you for being my co pilot here on Becoming youg, the podcast about purpose and about finding the right job for you. Interviewing is very essential to that. We talk about other things on other podcasts in Becoming youg. I mean, we just talk about big life stuff. Sometimes we talk about wacky stuff like why Britney Spears needs Becoming youg. Go listen to that podcast. But I think all of us have gone through the process of interviews, and so I'm so psyched that we could talk about it together. This topic is Evergreen interviewing. It's changing a lot, though, because of AI, and it's always going to be changing and changing, changing. But end of the day, there's you in the room with somebody that you've got to persuade to love you as much as you love them. I'm Susie Welch. This is becoming you.