No One Can Get a Job Right Now. So Now What?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "No One Can Get a Job Right Now. So Now What?"

Becoming You with Suzy Welch
Host: Suzy Welch (NYU Stern Professor, business journalist, and bestselling author)
Guests: Jenna Caravira (Founding Product Designer, Becoming You Labs) & Kevin Castro (Software Engineer, Becoming You Labs)
Air Date: June 23, 2026

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Overview: The Reality of the 2026 Job Market for Gen Z

In this engaging and substantive episode, Suzy Welch confronts the harsh realities of the current job market, focusing on Gen Z's struggles to land meaningful work. Joined by two recent grads who beat the odds and landed positions at her own startup, Becoming You Labs, Suzy invites frank discussion and offers hard-won advice on finding, getting, and keeping a job—plus, how to make authentic, informed career choices amid uncertainty and change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Brutality of the Current Job Market

[01:46 – 02:40]

• Jenna and Kevin share that the application process was "brutal," with rejection being the norm—hundreds of applications often yield few, if any, interviews.
  • Jenna: "I had a spreadsheet with over 340 lines of jobs that I had applied to and most of these so-called entry level jobs require like three years of experience." [02:31]
  • Kevin: "Even after those hundreds of jobs, I continued applying and it was hard to even get an interview." [02:11]
• Application requirements are often unrealistic and self-esteem takes a hit through repeated rejection.

2. The Disconnect Between Generations

[04:49 – 06:18]

• Suzy highlights the gap between Gen Z's lived experience and older generations’ perceptions of job-hunting difficulty.
  • "There’s a gigantic disconnect between Gen Z that's looking and my generation...what's all the complaining about?" [05:03]

3. Educational Background, Pathways, and Surprises

[06:18 – 10:10]

• Kevin explains his experience as a first-generation college student and the pressure of expectations—balancing what he wants with what his family sacrificed for.
  • "They want a job with prestige and money and they're doing it for their folks..." [07:35]
• Jenna describes how her college path was shaped by peer influence, not predetermined plans.
  • "I just wanted to hang out with my friends" (on choosing her major) [09:46]
• Both discuss initial uncertainty about their fields and struggles with imposter syndrome and self-doubt.
  • Jenna: "When you keep getting rejected ... your self esteem takes a really big hit." [11:03]

4. The Conveyor Belts Are Broken: The New Post-College Reality

[11:31 – 12:52]

• Suzy's "giant rejection machine" metaphor: College used to lead directly to jobs, now the process is random and success is not guaranteed.
• Most grads end up in jobs outside their major ("70% of students who graduated in 2026 got employed in fields that are not related to what they studied." [14:18])

5. Widespread Pessimism and Underemployment

[13:40 – 14:18]

• Suzy cites sobering statistics:
  • "20% of Gen Z employees believe they're underemployed."
  • "60% of graduates of 2026 describe themselves as somewhat or very pessimistic about their careers."
• Many accept "any" job out of desperation, leading to dissatisfaction and contemplation of when to look for something better.

6. Hitting the Wall: What Surprised Gen Z About Working

[15:55 – 17:16]

• Both guests are stunned by expectations that "we know everything on day one," and note that many so-called entry-level roles require skills that college didn’t teach.
  • Jenna: "The most surprising thing for me was the expectation for us to know everything we would need to know on day one." [15:55]
• Both mention how rejection and imposter syndrome are persistent challenges.
  • Kevin: "I let go of the fear of rejection, and when I finally found it, I realized that, oh, there was nothing to be afraid of." [17:46]

7. An Unplannable Future: How to Make Choices Amid Chaos

[19:47 – 24:32]

• Jenna voices the anxiety of not being able to see five years ahead: "I have no idea where to even start...the best path for me has just been taking it day by day." [20:03]
• Suzy underscores how unpredictable work and the economy are, especially with AI looming:
  • "I've never seen less visibility, less ability to sort of say, this is the direction it's going." [21:27]

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Suzy’s Core Methodology: Controlling the One Thing You Can—Yourself

[24:32 – 32:38]

• When the external world is unpredictable, the only stable variable is self-awareness:
  • "You have to keep your sights on the one thing you can know, which is you ... your values, your aptitudes, your general interests..." [24:32]
• Suzy’s methodology (taught at NYU Stern and developed at Becoming You Labs) emphasizes:
  • Deep understanding of your personal values—ranked, not just listed.
    • "You cannot live all your values equally all at the same time ... make some decisions about what you're going to express or repress..." [26:30]
  • Identifying aptitudes—generalist vs. specialist, future-vs-present focus, etc.
  • Reality of personality: "Your personality is really how the world experiences you." [30:06]
  • Cultivating economically viable interests, staying aware of new trends and industries.

Memorable Quote

• "You can't have two uncertain variables ... you don't know which way the world's going, and you don't know who ... you are." [24:32]

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The Best & Worst Career Advice

[32:38 – 38:52]

• Worst:
  • “Do what you love” is dangerous, Suzy argues: "It's one leg of a three-legged stool...What if you suck at it?” [32:46]
  • "Telling kids to follow their passion ... there's a name for that. That's a hobby, okay?" [33:18]
• Best:
  • Focus on the people you work with, not just the brand or salary.
  • "Who you work with can be as important as the nature of the work." [35:41]
  • Building relationships at work leads to emotional resilience, mentorship, and long-term connections.

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On Getting Hired as Gen Z: Employers’ Perspective

[41:43 – 45:49]

• Age 40+ hiring managers often have negative stereotypes of Gen Z: entitled, uncommitted, expecting fast rewards.
  • “The whisper campaign among the oldsters is they come in with entitlement ... low work centrism ... want to be in the C-suite...” [41:43]
• Hiring managers are looking for three main values:
  1. Achievement (desire to win)
  2. Work centrism (work for work’s sake, long hours)
  3. Scope (learning, action, adventure)
• Only "2% of Gen Z has the values that hiring managers are looking for." [44:18]
• Practical tip: If you have or can cultivate these values, SAY SO explicitly.
  • “To a boss, the phrase ‘I want this company to win,’ they might just go home and have a heart attack, they'd be so happy to hear it.” [45:34]
  • But: Don’t lie! Find roles that truly match your values.

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Keeping the Job: Performance, Currency, and Curiosity

[48:27 – 51:39]

• Ask your boss directly: “Can you tell me exactly what success looks like in this job?” [48:27]
• Your currency is your currency: Stay economically “current” on your industry, know the players, innovations, and trends.
  • “Your currency is your currency to stay employed.” [48:46]
  • Demonstrated curiosity and up-to-the-minute relevance make you indispensable.
• Get and act on specific feedback, push for clarity and expectations, and track your performance accordingly.

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Getting Hired: What Actually Works

[52:00 – 54:44]

• Relying solely on platforms like LinkedIn isn’t enough.
  • "Jobs are happening more and more... through friends." [52:28]
  • "Sometimes when you're looking, you should get any kind of job just to be working because it's going to put you in touch with more people." [53:23]
• Structure your time and don't be afraid to ask EVERYONE you know (even your dentist) for leads.

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Interview Red Flags & Power Dynamics

[54:55 – 57:49]

• Don’t bring up PTO, benefits, or schedule flexibility until after you have a job offer—the balance of power matters.
  • “Wait till the balance of power shifts ... then you can start saying, I'd like to read the medical benefits plan…” [54:55]
• Look for “emotionally sound” supervisors—bosses who are consistent, not mercurial.
  • "If you can suss this out in the job interview process, you're ahead of the game." [56:10]

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Regrets & Life Lessons

[57:49 – 61:09]

• Suzy regrets not being open enough to new friendships early in her career.
  • “I wasn’t going to be friends with everybody ... I should have made friends with everybody.” [58:06]
• Family mantra: "Love everyone"—approach everyone as a potential friend or ally.
  • "Giving everyone ... the absolute benefit of the doubt that they were going to be great ..." [58:51]
• Forgive quickly: “Why do you forgive so quickly? ... If I have one skill that saved my life so much, it’s just forgiving very, very quickly.” [59:30]

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What Makes Suzy Hire Someone Instantly

[61:09 – 61:17]

• Preparation and genuine interest seal the deal.
  • “If they knew a lot about the company...I love that. It shows resourcefulness. It shows preparation. It shows intelligence.” [61:17]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jenna (on planning): “Please don’t ask me where I’ll be in five years.” [19:47]
• Suzy (on Gen Z pessimism): “60% of the graduates of 2026 describe themselves as somewhat or very pessimistic about their careers. This, like, breaks my heart.” [14:18]
• Suzy (on the value gap): “Only two percent of Gen Z has the values that hiring managers are looking for.” [44:18]
• Kevin (on handling rejection): “I was scared to look for a job...I let go of the fear of rejection, and when I finally found it, I realized that, oh, there was nothing to be afraid of.” [17:46]
• Jenna (on interviews): "I feel like getting the job is one part. But then there’s also a matter of keeping the job with AI....” [48:15]

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Timestamps for Major Topics

• 01:30 — Introduction to guests and setting the theme
• 02:10 – 02:40 — Discussion of job search reality (hundreds of applications, brutal process)
• 07:35 — Parental & cultural pressures for job prestige and financial security
• 10:33 — Jenna’s organized job search and the emotional toll of rejection
• 12:52 — Experience of friends: underemployment, taking any job
• 14:18 — Heartbreaking statistics about Gen Z and work
• 15:55 – 17:16 — The shock of real-world expectations and persistent underpreparation
• 24:32 – 32:38 — Suzy's methodology: knowing yourself as the only reliable career compass
• 32:38 – 38:52 — Best/worst advice; relational value of work
• 41:43 – 45:49 — Gen Z’s perceived values vs. hiring managers’ expectations
• 48:27 – 51:39 — How to keep a job: performance and curiosity
• 52:00 – 54:44 — What works in finding jobs: real contacts and staying “in motion”
• 54:55 – 57:49 — Interview red flags and when to negotiate
• 58:06 – 61:09 — Life regrets and the power of open-hearted networking

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare, candid cross-generational conversation about real work, real anxiety, and real strategies for moving forward in a tight job market. Suzy frames the problem with empathy and realism but doesn’t leave listeners in despair, offering practical advice for self-knowledge, relationship building, and proactive learning, even in times of economic and technological upheaval.

Transcript

[Jenna Caravira]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Susie Welch]

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[Susie Welch]

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[Jenna Caravira]

Was it scary?

[Susie Welch]

Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be.

[Jenna Caravira]

Did the car have a sunroof?

[Susie Welch]

It did, actually.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Susie Welch]

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[Susie Welch]

I have got to get a job. I've got to get a job. My head's on fire. Well, we're going to talk about it today. We're going to talk about how you get a job with two people who just got jobs. Talk about their experience. I'm going to give so much advice. But today we're here with two fabulous people. Say hello.

[Jenna Caravira]

Hi.

[Susie Welch]

What's your name?

[Jenna Caravira]

I'm Jenna and Kevin.

[Susie Welch]

All right, today we're going to talk about how to get a job. We've got some employed gen zers with us today. We're going to hear who they are and what the heck they're doing in the Becoming youg studio. But first, I have to ask you a question since. Okay, spoiler alert. They're employed by Becoming you Labs. When you were looking for your job before you got the job at Becoming you Labs, like, what did it feel like out there?

[Jenna Caravira]

Brutal.

[Kevin Castro]

Yeah, it was Rough. It was rough. I will say that I think I applied to hundreds of jobs and even after those hundreds of jobs, I continued applying and it was hard to even get an interview. So it was very brutal.

[Susie Welch]

Well, I want to say thank God you didn't because you ended up with us. Okay. And Jana, like what, what did it feel like?

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, I had a spreadsheet with over 340 lines of jobs that I had applied to and most of these so called entry level jobs require like three years of experience.

[Susie Welch]

I know, it's diabolical. Catch 22. I want to just say people pick on Gen Z. I hear it all the time. I think you're going to finish the podcast today with such a heart for what Gen Z is going for in this crazy, crazy job market. I have given advice to the parents of job seekers, but today we're hearing from Gen Z job seekers. Just talk to us about the market and what it's like, your experience today, hear some questions from listeners and really go deep about getting a career and building your life in a brand new world. I'm Susie Welch. This is becoming you. Let us hear from who our very special guests are. I know who you are, but tell our audience please. Jenna, we'll start with you. Who are you?

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, so my name is Jenna Caravira. I'm from Toronto, Canada and I'm a founding product designer at Becoming youg Labs.

[Susie Welch]

Heck yes.

[Jenna Caravira]

Yes. I studied product design for my undergrad and then did my master's in mechanical engineering.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, she went to Stanford. Everybody, like, let's be shy about it. I want to just say that your title basically means, you know, if you've ever used to become a Ulabs product like the values Bridge or PI 360. Those. The beautiful design of those products is thanks to you. So go on.

[Jenna Caravira]

In college I learned how to weld. It's one of my favorite things.

[Susie Welch]

I did not see that one coming. Like you like to weld. Welding is one of your favorite things?

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, welding and silversmithing.

[Susie Welch]

Okay, Silversmithing. Okay. I get the welding part. I think it's kind of cool though. It is.

[Jenna Caravira]

It's fun. Foraging metals.

[Susie Welch]

All right, cool. Kevin, I'm gonna find out about you. What's your full name?

[Kevin Castro]

My name is Kevin Castro.

[Susie Welch]

Where'd you go to school?

[Kevin Castro]

I went to Princeton University.

[Susie Welch]

What'd you study there?

[Kevin Castro]

I graduated in computer science.

[Susie Welch]

Oh, you're one of these CS people, right? Your parents must have been so proud. Cheering from the side. Where are you from originally?

[Kevin Castro]

I grew up in Queens, New York.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Kevin Castro]

But I also moved to Ecuador when I was a little kid and then I came back and grew up in New Jersey.

[Susie Welch]

In New Jersey. All right, you've been around.

[Kevin Castro]

I've been around.

[Susie Welch]

All right, and so your job at becoming Ulabs is.

[Kevin Castro]

I'm a software engineer there and I'm very proud to be working with everyone. And also, Jenna.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, you don't have to stock up to me because I'm the boss. I love you anyway. Okay. And so look, you already sort of gave us a fun fact, which is like that you grew up in certain parts of your life in Ecuador. Is there anything otherwise fun?

[Kevin Castro]

At my parents house, we have 15 chickens, four ducks, three rabbits, and four dogs. So we're a very.

[Susie Welch]

Okay, today's national Rescue Dog day of the day. We're taping this podcast. By the way, everybody, of course I'll find any excuse to discuss Pierre Rescue Dog. All right, look, this is an interesting conversation to me because you have jobs. You are gen zers who have worked hard to get the jobs. I want to hear about process. I want to open up that process for people who are sitting on the outside saying, what is wrong with them? So I want to talk to you about your process of finding a job. I then want to kind of ask you about what your friends are experiencing, people who are not yet finding jobs. I think it's very, very rough. And I think there's a gigantic disconnect between Gen Z that's looking and my generation and other generations who have gone through this process and saying, like, what's all the complaining about? Even though the statistics would suggest that the complaining is about the fact that the job market is contracting. Okay, so there's a lot of discussion around this and you gu right in the belly of the beast. And I'm really, really excited because becoming you is a podcast about figuring out what to do with your life. And you are in the crucible moment of finding out what to do with your life. And I think a lot of times when you're your age, you're like, I don't want to know what to do with my life. I just want to find a job. And it's so funny because it's kind of a meta thing because you actually are working at a company that helps people figure out what to do with their lives. So I'm very glad that you're figuring out what to do with your life with us. So on that happy note, I want to just. Why don't we just go One by one. Kevin, we'll start with you. I want you to tell me when you were at Princeton and congratulations for that. When you were started as a freshman, what did you think your life was going to look like?

[Kevin Castro]

Ooh, that's a big question. Honestly, I started off at Princeton as a first generation student. So it was very new. The whole process of college, the whole process of finding a job. So navigating myself in that space was very different. And so I found myself with other like minded students also. First generation also didn't know too much about the process, so it was nice to collaborate with them and also find my space with them in the Prince University.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. And then did you like get the summer internships or what'd you do in the summers?

[Kevin Castro]

Yeah, so my first summer there. Unfortunately it was Covid. Oh yeah, it was.

[Susie Welch]

Sorry about COVID time.

[Kevin Castro]

So that summer I didn't do any internship, but I went home. I spent time with my family, but I also spent time just trying to hone my skills and learn new technologies since I was. I wanted to be a software engineer.

[Susie Welch]

So you knew you wanted to be a software engineer or did you feel like you should be a software engineer? Because that was the American dream.

[Kevin Castro]

I think it's a little bit of both, to be honest. Yeah, the title of software engineer is very prestigious and something that a lot of people want to be. It comes with a lot of money as well. Right?

[Susie Welch]

Look, look, you know, I teach becoming at NYU Stern, and every semester it's my great privilege to teach a lot of first generation kids. All right? And they are like on a different trajectory than the kids who are coming from the families of privilege. They want a job with prestige and money and they're doing it for their folks. Their folks made a huge number of sacrifices and they're like, look, I'm not sitting here like talking about megatrends and aviation with you, Professor Welch. You know, with you in your. When you start talking about that stuff, I'm going to get a job so that my parents have security. I mean, it's a bit of a different path, so. But you also enjoy engineering. I mean, you look like you're loving it over there. Either you're having a very, very good act. You look like you're loving it over there. So then when did you get your first job? Was it in college or when did you get your first job?

[Kevin Castro]

So after college I did take some time to just learn myself and learn what I wanted to do, what type of company I wanted to work in. During that time I just took some more time to hone in on my engineering skills. And also I went to Ecuador to spend time with my family, since I didn't get too much time before that. So when I came back from Ecuador, that's when I started looking into jobs, and I landed my first contract role in a startup in New York.

[Susie Welch]

Okay.

[Kevin Castro]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

All right.

[Susie Welch]

And the rest is history. Because eventually, how much later after that did we find you?

[Kevin Castro]

Precisely. A year.

[Susie Welch]

Okay.

[Kevin Castro]

Yeah.

[Susie Welch]

So you were doing contract work in that time, in that year when you were doing contract work, did you ever have an oh in your stomach? Like, this is going to be harder than I thought. I mean, how did. Or as a. As a. As an engineer, was it all pretty smooth sailing for you?

[Kevin Castro]

No, there were definitely some tough times. Times where I felt like I didn't belong and times where I felt like I needed to work harder. Yeah. But I feel like those times just pushed me to try to actually make my place in that industry and an industry that doesn't have too many people like me.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah.

[Susie Welch]

Well, we're so glad we have you, Jenna. Tell us a little bit about your journey. You got to Stanford, and you must have experienced Covid as well.

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, but I was a lot less responsible than Kevin. I mean, I just kind of treated those four years as being in a playground, and I spent my summers and volunteering at summer camps. I was a tour guide on campus, and when I got there, I had no idea what design was or what product design was at all.

[Susie Welch]

Okay, how'd you find yourself then? Product design. Like, how'd you get there?

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah. A lot of the people in my dorm were studying product design, and I just wanted to hang out with my friends.

[Susie Welch]

This is the thing. This is how kids find college majors, by the way. Okay. They literally do. Like, my roommate was majoring in archeology, and she had a really good class. The teacher was really good. And next thing you know, your kids graduated with a degree in archeology, and you're like, that's useful. So. But you're lucky that you found your way into this major, right?

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah. And that my aptitudes matched. Matched it.

[Susie Welch]

I'm like, that language. The aptitudes. That's the becoming you language. So then you graduate. You did not have a job before you graduated?

[Jenna Caravira]

No, I didn't.

[Susie Welch]

Would that. Did that make you nervous?

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, absolutely. I didn't really want to move in back home because I was very used to having an independent life at that point.

[Susie Welch]

And you wanted to move to beautiful New York. You were from where at that time it was Montreal. Right.

[Jenna Caravira]

Or Toronto.

[Susie Welch]

Toronto. Okay. And so tell us a little bit about the spreadsheet.

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, so I had a spreadsheet with every job posting I found that I was interested in, categorized by the type of job that it was, the posting date, and then I also had links to all the application portals.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, that was it. I mean, you sound very organized about it. What did it feel like to be going through that process though? You were very organized. You had a nice spreadsheet. Like talk about your inner life when you were going through this though.

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, the spreadsheet made me feel like I was a little bit more in control than I was. It made me feel like, okay, am I doing everything right?

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Jenna Caravira]

When you keep getting rejected over and over again, it's like it takes a big hit. Your self esteem takes a really big hit.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Jenna Caravira]

And so I wanted to feel like I was doing as much as I possibly could to get to where I needed to be.

[Susie Welch]

Did you ever feel like even me, like I can't get a job and I've got this great education?

[Jenna Caravira]

Sometimes. But I think there was also a lot of imposter syndrome. And at Stanford I was surrounded by like the most brilliant, talented, wonderful people. So there were parts of it where I also doubted my, myself as well in my schools.

[Susie Welch]

I have a theory. Let me run it by you. It's like you're in high school and you're facing college and you're looking at getting into college and all your parents are like, this is so exciting, you're going to go to college. And the way you internalize it is I am looking at a gigantic rejection machine. Like I'm going to go into that with all my friends and all the smart people I know and some of us are going to make it and some of us aren't. Okay, then you get into college. So you've made it through one gigantic rejection machine, but you've made it. And while you're in college you can have some experiences that also make you have self doubt. College is a mixed bag in terms of confidence building for most kids. Then you get come out of college and there used to be conveyor belts. Like in college you got on a conveyor belt and you plopped off at the end and you got into a job. But the conveyor belts are increasingly broken. I mean, I think if you go to a great school and you major in cs, you've got still got a good conveyor belt. The companies are coming to look for you, but for kids in the humanities and for. And for kids who are actually. The vast majority of students are not at schools with, like, brand names like the ones that you went to, and they come out and they're dropped into an ocean of. And they're, like, all bobbing like little, you know, duckies in the ocean. Their degrees. In some cases, they worked very hard for them. And some. In some cases, they had some fun and they didn't work as hard as they wish they had, and they're all looking for a smaller number of jobs. So talk to me a little bit about the experience your friends are having in the job market right now, Kevin, go ahead.

[Kevin Castro]

Yeah, I mean, for them, it's also tough right now at the moment. Like I said, the more that they apply, the harder it is to just even get an interview. You just have to stick at it and something. Fortunately.

[Susie Welch]

What are they doing to pay the bills? Like, what are they. Have they moved back home?

[Kevin Castro]

Yeah, yeah. Some of them have moved back home. Working with their parents. Yep. Yeah.

[Susie Welch]

Yep. My kids accuse me of wanting them to lose their job, so they have to move back home. All right. There might be some truth to that accusation, but I want them to keep their jobs. Jenna, what is. What's going on with your friends?

[Jenna Caravira]

My friends, for the most part, are employed, but they're not super happy with where they are.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. Say something about that.

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah. I think because it's such a hard job market, they were willing to take anything they could get.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Jenna Caravira]

And now at this point, they're trying to figure out when is the right time to leave and look for other opportunities.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Jenna Caravira]

And in that process, how do you stand out, like, with AI now, how do you even navigate that?

[Susie Welch]

We're going to answer that question. I want to drop some statistics on you. Number one, 20% of people who are currently employed in Gen Z believe that they are underemployed. I don't know what they're doing. They're baristas or whatever because they couldn't get anything else. And 18% said that they are in fields that have, like, nothing they have no interest in whatsoever. 60% of the graduates of 2026 describe themselves as somewhat or very pessimist about their careers. This, like, breaks my heart. First of all, you know, my life is helping people figure out what to do with their lives. Right. My purpose is helping people find their purpose. And do you hear 60% of young people going into the world have got a kind of a level of nihilism about it that they're very pessimistic about their careers. Like you'll have other things besides your career, but you are working and filling your life with your career. And to feel that they're pessimistic is. It's heartbreaking. And it doesn't bode well for them as individuals or society like to have a big, you know, heart of sadness going out there. And then there's another statistic which is that 70% of students who graduated in 2026 got employed in fields that are not related to what they studied. So you went through four years, you did all the learning, you took the advanced classes, whatever, some people wrote their thesis and whatever, and you're not in that field at all. And the only explanation could be you could not get a job in it, or maybe you were not interested in the first place. So I love hearing about you. You have very, I think, I hope, happy endings to the story because you went and you did the work. What is the thing, can I hear from both of you about this for before we flip the tables and you start asking questions of me, the purported career expert? Okay, come on. It's not purported. I am. What was the biggest surprise to you about entering the job market? You're in college, you have certain ideas in your head about what work is going to be. Like there's work over there. I'm going to go get a job, I'm going to become a working person. That's the expectation, right? And then you got job and you entered the working world and you can say anything. I mean, like, please, I understand that. Like, you know that you may not want to tell me what was surprising to you about coming into a workplace. Because for both of you, your first full time job really was with becoming ulabs, right? So what surprised you? What surprised you about the working world?

[Jenna Caravira]

I think the most surprising thing for me was the expectation for us to know everything we would need to know on day one. I think especially because a lot of traditional jobs are no longer being offered or being taken over by AI, a lot of what we learned in school might not be directly applicable to some of the new roles. And so right off the bat, feeling like I need to have experience in these things when it's an entry level job was pretty shocking, right?

[Susie Welch]

And here's the other thing about it, just to that point exactly is you go to school, you study, and by the time you're a senior, you think, I pretty much know about this, right? Then you get to your job and you're like, I'm a rank amateur. Nothing. I have to tell you about a crazy thing that happened. I was talking to a bunch of students entering the MBA program, and I did a presentation on becoming you and on the methodology, and a student wrote me afterwards, and he said, as a psychology major in college, I didn't know if there was anything you could teach me about psychology, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it actually says this to a person who's got a PhD and this kind of thing, it's like, you think when you've graduated from college, you kind of know your field, and then you get to work and you're like, oh, I have to start at the bottom again. Right. And they expect me to know a lot more than I know. Well, you joined a startup where we expect you to know everything, so that's kind of a problem. But. And the onboarding, you know, most companies are just not in a place where they're doing onboarding anymore. Just can't do it. All right, Kevin, what surprised you?

[Kevin Castro]

A big factor of my job search was, I would say I was scared to look for a job. And what I mean by that is I was scared of rejection from jobs. And. And I did stop applying to jobs for a little while because I kept getting rejected, and I didn't want to go through that anymore. So I kind of let go of the fear of rejection, and when I finally found it, I realized that, oh, there was nothing to be afraid of.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. But while you're going through it, it feels so personal, and it's like, what did I do? I mean, I've seen all four of my kids go through this and, you know, getting ghosted by people they like. I remember one time my daughter went through process, and she actually got to the interview, and the woman said to her in the interview, I don't see a single thing wrong with you. I think you're terrific. She never heard from her again. I mean, it was like we were like, you know, she wrote her and she said, you know, I thought we had a wonderful interview. Can you just give me some insight? Was it something the woman never got back to her, it's just an very. It can be a very dehumanizing experience. I don't think there's as many sort of positive outcomes for people of your generation as there used to be. And I think the sort of compounding factor is that because of social media, you can all compare notes. Now, this may have had happened somewhat when I was coming up and along. We had more conveyor belts and more jobs, but we didn't have a way to vent to each other, so you just thought you were alone in it. But then there can be kind of this experience where you all know what's going on, and it feels kind of dire and complicated. I'm going to try. Look, I'm all about realistic hope. And so I think what I'm going to try to do for the remainder of this podcast. And you know, if you're listening to this and you're a person who employs people in Gen Z, you're in Gen Z, you're a parent of somebody in Gen Z, you've got friends who are Gen Z. My idea here is to speak very realistically. I am a hopeful person. I think there's reason for hope. I think you have to be highly strategic in the way you go about looking for work and think about this market today, which we happen to know a lot about because of our data. So I'll share some of that. But I want you to go ahead and start to ask me the questions of the representatives of your generation about careers and about the job search and about what you could be doing differently and better to get where you want to go. All right. But by the way, before we go there, can I ask you a question about where it is you want to go? Like, when you think about careers? I had, like, a very, very clear idea about what kind of career I wanted coming out and what the arc was going to look like and so forth. Does that even exist anymore? Is there any visibility about what a career might look like anymore?

[Jenna Caravira]

Please don't ask me where I'm going to be in five years.

[Susie Welch]

No, you're going to be with us. So I'm not asking that question because I don't like any other answer but the one I've gone. But, I mean, no, but. But just to that point. I mean, it's a scary question to ask. Where are you going to be in five years? Like, what's the world gonna look like in five years? Anybody would be working in five years.

[Jenna Caravira]

Yeah, I have no. I have. I have no idea where to even start. I honestly feel like the best path for me has just been taking it day by day.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah.

[Jenna Caravira]

And obviously, I want to plan ahead and be strategic, but it's hard to know what the market's even gonna look like.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, who knows? I mean, you know, I was saying to somebody earlier today, if you had 10 economists in a room right now, and I know I'm not an economist. I kind of think I am, but I'M not, I'm truly not an economist. Okay. I really love, I love economics, but I'm truly not. But it just so happens that the economics department is on my floor over at NYU Stern. And so I'm, I can actually literally say I hang out with economists. But I would say this, you could have 10 economists, really, really smart ones, and I would say the smartest ones in the world are at NYU Stern.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Really.

[Susie Welch]

I mean, it's just a fantastic department, but you could have 10 of them in a room. And five will tell you right now, right now, five will tell you that AI is going to blow this job market open. There's going to be more jobs, more prosperity, more creativ, more productivity. This is all good. And everybody's worried for the wrong reason because actually there's going to be not enough workers. And we've got to be worried about that. Five of them will tell you that. The other five will tell you the end is here. There's going to be no more jobs. There's going to be universal income because basically we're all going to be working maybe two to three days a week for four hours a day because there's going to be no more jobs. Everything's going to be done by agents. And you think like, wait a minute, the economist next door to you. And like, I have to say, my entire career in this space as a business journalist and a person following and thinking a lot about business, I have never seen less visibility, less, less ability to sort of say, this is the direction it's going. You know, it used to be in the olden days when I was first working as a business consultant at Bain, that we would literally do two to three year plans for companies. We would do projections out two to three years. And as time has gone on, I am now on corporate boards and we sit there and we don't, we do projections for the next month. We don't even do the quarterly projections anymore. Do not. Cannot month to month. And this is a, I mean this is sort of like driving when in a, in a, in a city and you are, and you're finding your location going block by block instead of sort of like having a GPS in front of you where you see the whole map and it's, I don't know, I, I don't even know if we're wired to process that.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

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[Susie Welch]

the rest of us aren't?

[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

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[Jenna Caravira]

So how are you making career decisions if you can't see? Yeah, if it's so uncertain you can't see what's ahead of you.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, I think that there's only one way. And thank you for asking that question, even though I know it's very natural and spontaneous because it leads me exactly to my main point about everything around careers, which is that when the future is utterly uncertain and you can't know a ding dang thing about it, you have to keep your sights on the one thing you can know, which is you. You can know who you are. You can know your values, your aptitudes, and your general interests, which will change as the world changes. And when you know that no matter which way the world twists or turns or unfolds, you can figure out better than others where to fit yourself in. Like, no, I don't want that. That does not match my values or aptitudes at all. Or, yes, that is more directionally towards who I am. You've got to. At least you can't have two uncertain variables, okay? You know, you can't have X plus Y equals Z. You got to have one variable in there. It's got to be 3 plus x equals whatever. So I think that you can't have two uncertain variables, which is you don't know which way the world's going, and you don't know who the heck you are. One of those things you got to know, and you can only know you can know yourself. You can know. Now, look, I am not a psychologist or a therapist, and becoming you is not therapy. Becoming you is an absolute methodology to help you find a job. So when I'm talking about knowing yourself, I'm not talking about some of the stuff that, like, one of my favorite guests talk about. This is Vienna Ferran. She's an actual Thing therapist. She talks about childhood wounds. This is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the stuff, the building blocks of getting a good career. And those building blocks are your values, okay? Your aptitudes. And, you know, I split the aptitudes into two parts. Your cognitive aptitudes and your emotional aptitudes. Personality, okay? And that word scares people. But your personality, you gotta know what your personality really, really is. And then the third part is like, what are you. What are you interested in? Well, to know what you're interested in, you gotta know what's out there, okay? Like, you forget what you majored in. There's, like, new industries, there's megatrends. You know, there's 12 new big megatrends being born right now. You got to know what those are. So the. You can know about yourself, but then the work's on you to stay aware of what's coming. So then the variable. The world keeps changing. The world keeps changing. Great. You know enough about yourself to be able to say, oh, okay, if it's going that way, I know which aptitudes of mine work in that and not in that. I mean, that's the only thing you can know. So that's how you got it, a plan. It's the only way you can. I can't think of another way. Then it behooves you to dig very, very deep into yourself and say, okay, what are my values? Not vaguely, but in great specificity. Like what is the rank order of them? We do an exercise in the Becoming youg methodology. It's the last exercise in the, in the values part of the program. It's not in the book. I only do it when I'm in the room. It's called Value Solitaire. You've both played it. It's a very, very emotional, complicated, it fun, but it doesn't really end fun kind of game involving your values and prioritizing them. And the whole point of putting people through the agony of the value Solitaire process because people cry out make it stop. As we're doing it, is to teach people a really hard lesson, which is you cannot live all your values equally all at the same time. You cannot live your family centrism, the desire to have your family be the center of your life and work centrism, the desire for work to be the center of your life equally at the same time without it being a freaking car wreck. And so you have to know what your values are specifically what order they're in, where the conflicts are and make some decisions about what you're going to express or repress to live your life without feeling of oh in your stomach at every minute. And so you gotta know that you can't be guessing that as you're looking at jobs, go into the job search knowing what your values are. Where does, for instance, where does non sibi fall in your list of values? Non sibi is the value of wanting to help people on a personal one on one basis that feels good to you. And you know what? That's not for everybody. It's not like they'd leave somebody who was suffering on the side of the road. You know, that's altruism, that's virtue, that's a different thing. But the desire to organize your life around helping people individually, you've got to know where that value is for you so that you choose the right job for you. Because if you're all about non city helping people one on one, for God's sake, you know, there's some finance jobs I wouldn't suggest. Okay? And by contrast, if it's a very low value for you, like why are you going into a client facing role? I mean, you're just going to hate it every single day, because it's not a value of yours. You've really got to know where these values lie for you so that you find the work that fits. So the same is true of aptitudes. You know, we talk in becoming you in the methodology about six major aptitudes. Are you a generalist or a specialist? Are you a future focuser or a present focuser? These are things that are really related to certain kind of work that you're doing. One of my favorite moments in the becoming you, you know, I've taught it for six years, is after teaching the aptitudes, a group of students. A student at the break. The lectures are three hours at the break, barreling down the aisle towards me and coming up to me, and her face was, like, completely red. She'd been in the back row crying, lots of crying, and becoming you, as you observed. And she said to me, I finally. I finally. I finally figured out why I was fired from my last job. And she was, like, pointing at her aptitudes, and she was like, I am this, and they needed that, you know, and it was like she was so freed by it. She was so free by it. I said, well, Lynn, let's make sure in your next job. Job, you get a job that's this and this. Like, eureka this. Knowing what your aptitudes are is, like, so essential to creating a career that's sustainable and. Okay. So the second part of aptitudes is your personality. And you come out of college having been told this message from your friends generally, which is that your personality is the words that you all use to describe yourselves. You know, Jenna's so kind. Kevin's such a good listener. And that may or may not be true. It's probably true, right? But your personality is really how the world experiences you. And your friends often don't tell that to you unless they're very, very good friends or they're super mad at you. You know, when you really hear what your personality is, when somebody breaks up with you, then they tell you how they've been experiencing you, okay? They say it out the door, and you don't believe it and you don't buy it, and you're really hurt by it. But in fact, they've given you some really important information. Okay? Years later, you think, oh, they were rut. You know, and it's like, anonymity are

[Jenna Caravira]

also a great place to get.

[Susie Welch]

I think they are too. Do they are. But we usually get this information about how the world experiences us in moments of great hurt and Great vulnerability to me, it's like, almost criminal. The colleges don't teach of. Obviously, this is the most biased thing a person could say as the inventor of this methodology. And I think the kids at NYU are very, you know, like, they're getting. Becoming you. And they often say the same thing to me. I'm about to sound like a total asset, so just everybody forgive me. But they basically say, like, you know, why isn't everybody taught becoming you? And it's like, yeah, that's a great question. Because it's. You need this important information to come out of college and figure out what job you need. This is like, functional knowledge. Okay? Then there's economic, economically viable interest, what you're interested in. You go into college and you guys tell me if I'm wrong. There's kind of a whisper campaign among students about what jobs are out there. Are you going to tech?

[Jenna Caravira]

Like, oh, yeah.

[Susie Welch]

What companies are hiring? And look, you guys know nothing. You're in college. You don't have the big picture, but you're getting information about where the jobs are from each other. Mother, it's crazy to me. My mother sent me an article that they're hiring and blah, blah, blah. Your mother, she sent you an article that's like, you know, like, there's like, a systematic way to know what's going on with the economy and where the jobs are. And yet you could still go to college and graduate knowing a huge amount about, say, sort of like the history of Turkey. Okay, but not know where the jobs are because you took a class in that instead. So this is one of the longest winded answers to a very simple question, Jenna, which is basically, you asked, how can you possibly plan a career when the. The world is the way it is? And the answer is, I don't think you can. But you can know yourself so well that no matter what happens, at least you think, okay, I am agile. I'm adaptable. I'm adept enough to. To make the pivot I need to make. And you will pivot and also to pivot within your own company. Like, okay, I see which way this company's going. We're going to go to these two products instead of those four products. I know. Let me. Let me do, like, a little check here about who I am and what my values are. I want to go over there. And you've just got to constantly be looking at the puzzle and seeing where your piece fits in kind of thing. Okay. All right. What you got, Kevin?

[Kevin Castro]

I feel like this is a very big one. That a lot of people have. Okay, what's the worst career advice that you've been told and what has been the best?

[Susie Welch]

Okay. It's so easy on the worst career advice. And people give it all the time. I have to, like, I have to turn off the TV or run from the room because I feel very triggered. The worst advice in the world is to do what you love. I mean, follow your passion. It's criminal. People should be put in jail for giving this advice. Okay. Because it's one leg of a three legged stool. Okay. Do what you're passionate about. What if you suck at it? Okay. What if you're bad at it? Like, so, like, I love to sing. And when I sing at church, literally in the nicest environment in the world, people will turn around and tell me to stop. That's how bad it is. I ruin the experience for other people. I'm singing my lungs out and I'm feeling like, you know, the Holy Spirit's here. Everyone's gonna love me. No, they literally, like, I remember one time in the nicest church in the world down in Palm beach where I used to live, somebody turning around and saying, we can hear you. Okay? That's how bad it is. All right, so what if I. What if I followed my passion for singing? Telling kids to follow their passion. You'll never work. A day in your life is a look. If it's your passion and you're not good at it, there's a name for that. That's a hobby, okay? And. And that's true about me also. Like, I'm bad at a lot of things. My family's family family hobby is ceramics. And my daughter was so good at it, she became a professional ceramicist. I am like childlike. I mean, she actually, as a ceramicist sometimes will say to me, like, do you need help with that, mom? I mean, it's very, very bad. But I love it very much. I never thought I could do it professionally. So you need maybe, yeah, maybe go into your passion, but only if you have all the aptitudes to succeed. And where we really see this is kids. I'm sorry to call you kids, but young people trying to break into the music industry. Industry big time. Love music. Want to go into the music industry. The aptitudes for the music industry are very, very specific. And I'm not talking about as artists, I'm talking about as marketers or producers or so forth. The other place you see it is entertainment. Love movies, and they want to go into the movie industry to go into the movie industry, Having a daughter who's in the movie industry, you know, the number one aptitude is just sheer unmitigated hustle. Okay? Liking movies doesn't mean you have the kind of hustle you need to succeed. So you so often see this in the big, kind of like, glamour industries. People want to go into luxury, they want to go fashion. You have to have the aptitude. So this whole idea that you just do what interests you is dangerous unless you take into consideration what you're good at. Now, in terms of good career advice, one of the pieces of career advice that I did not take early enough and often enough was how important the people you work with. You know, like, people really focus on what's the company, what's the salary? And instead, you should really be focusing on, who will I be working with? On, are they fabulous, fun, good people, and will I learn from them? And a lot of stuff flows from that. You know, will I make relationships? Do I want to be friends with these people? And I understand with Gen Z, it's like, I'm not trying to make friends at work. And I think it's a great loss to your generation that you don't want to make friends at work. I mean, you'll make. I have some of my best friends.

[Jenna Caravira]

I would love to make friends at work.

[Susie Welch]

I know this is a new trend, though, Jenna, because like, five, six years ago, in the classroom, I would say, make friends with everyone at work. Go out for a drink with them afterwards, get to know them. And people like, I want boundaries. And one time a woman like, said in class, look, my new boss took me out to dinner, and he asked me if I was married. And I thought, what business is it but his. And I said, he's trying to get to know you as a person. I said, let me be clear. Was he. Did you feel like he was hitting on you? She said, no, he's gay. I said, so it was clear he was not hitting on you. He was trying to get to know you as a person. And she said, look, I don't want any of that. And then another student raised his hand and he said, you know what I really hate? I really hate when I come in on Monday and my boss asks me, how was your weekend? It's none of his damn business business. And I was like, you know, I am not in Kansas anymore. Now, I have noticed over the past three or four years a definite sea change with my students saying, I really like getting to know people at work, and I'm all for It I think that who you work with can be as important as the nature of the work. So if you're deciding between two jobs and one job has got, you know, it's Goldman Sachs, it's X amount of dollars, it's going to look great on your resume. The work is kind of a little bit adjacent to what you wanted to do, but it's all those things. And then you're looking at job over here. It's a startup, the money is less. It's work that you really like. And the people are fantastic. Go there. Go where the people are fantastic. Where you're going to learn, where you're going to grow, where you're going to have a vibrant life of emotional relationships with people. Okay, that is very good advice. And I think I didn't take it soon enough. I was all about the brand name. I was all about. I got very lucky with Bain because I loved everything about Bain when I went there. And I ended up making friends that are such good friends. Actually, here's a fun fact about it. My first boss at Bain was a guy named Andy Wozenchuk. And he and his wife became incredibly close friends of mine over the seven years I was at Bain. And he had a fantastic career at Bain. And then he was stolen away to be the head negotiator for the New England Patriots. And in fact, one of his early wins was that he negotiated the first contract for a guy named Tom Brady. Okay, so anyway, he became a very successful negotiator. And then he was so good at it, that kind of. Later in his career, he was stolen away to be a professor at Harvard Business School, teaching negotiation. And when I started teaching management at Stern, and I was going to teach these kids how to be a boss for an entire semester on the first day of class, I taught them what I could on the first day. And I said, since I'm going to be teaching you how to be a boss, I thought it'd be entertaining for you to hear from the person who was. Who has been my boss and was my first boss. And we got Andy up on a big zoom. And he described to the students, maybe not in the greatest moment of my teaching experience, what it was like to manage me, which was. Was apparently after he got over the fat, he thought I was broken. That's what he basically said to the class. At first I thought Susie was broken, and then I got to know Susie better. But I was not an easy person to manage. And so. But look, the point of this story is that I made Such good friends working at Bain that like 40 years later I could call somebody up, talk to my students. And this is the thing, you know, business is an island. You see everybody again and you, you want to be friends with everybody on the island because your life is long and, and you got to give everybody the sort of benefit of a doubt. I don't think that message is told to people coming out of college. It's all about get the job, get the job. And I think it's like, get the job with the friends.

[Kevin Castro]

I love that advice. Actually. I'm not just saying this because you're our boss, but I feel like everyone at the company is my friend and I enjoy coming into work to be able to communicate with them and just be around them.

[Susie Welch]

I know, I agree. And I think that, I think a lot about this when we're putting the team together is like, do I want to spend time with these people? People? And I. Obviously we want really talented people. The team with the best players wins. But I think that this, the. The job for the employers is to find people who, and this is what we're talking about with cultural fit is like, do we want to hang out with them? And Bob Sutton, who's a. Do you know him? He's a professor at Stanford Business School. Famous Bob Sutton. He was actually one of my PhD thesis examiners in the longest day of my life. But it all worked out. He years and years ago handed an article into the Harvard Business Review with the title the no asshole rule. You know, actually you should have a hiring, you know, a screen which is like, we will not hire a holes around here. And I think companies give it really good lip service. But when you get it right, you have a place where people will stay because they do not want to leave their friends and they'll put in the extra hours. Like, you know, there's a lot of times at work it gets really hard and you're putting in the extra hours not so much for the company, but for your friends. Yeah. Yeah.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Dr. Sanjay Gupta]

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[Jenna Caravira]

Susie, I want to ask you a question that a lot of my friends are having, which is what would make you want to take a chance on hiring a Gen Z or a recent grad over someone with a little bit more experience?

[Susie Welch]

Oh, what a great question. That's a great question. I want to say something that you may not want to hear, which, which is if you're a hiring manager, 40 plus, you are very, very predisposed not to want to hire a Gen Zer. Okay? The whisper campaign among the oldsters is they come in with entitlement. They come in with low work centrism, as we would call it, like a very limited desire to work. They don't want to work Saturdays. They have very high expectations. They want to be in the C suite before they've been in the D suite, kind of. And so you're predisposed not to hire a Gen Zer. So this puts the onus on Gen Z to kind of do backflips. All right, and so let us revisit my incendiary inflammatory data about Gen Z. The values bridge rank orders, people's values from 1 to 16. And so we now have almost 200,000 people have taken it. We're able to look at the values. You know, if you love data the way we do, you can cut that data any which way you want. But of course, the natural way to cut it is to look at it first through generation. And so we were looking at the, the rank order of values for Gen Z. It was no surprise to me because I'm in the classroom with Gen Z every day of the week. The first value is eudaimonia. This is self care by another name. It's personal pleasure. It's personal flourishing, it's balance, it's harmony. For Gen Z, Eudaimonia is the top value. The second value for Gen Z in general and this is not every person in Gen Z but this is looking overall. The second value is voice. Authentic self expression of individuality and self like living who you are out loud, not compromising on who you are being your, you know, being very, very authentic. Authentic. And third value is non sibi the desire to help other people. And look, I have no opinions about these are right or wrong, but these are the top three values of Gen Z. When I saw those top three values I thought to myself well I've been around the block a few times. This is this, this would be very interesting to compare to the values that hiring managers are looking for in Gen Z. So we did a second survey and by we I mean the folks at Becoming you labs. And we did a survey of 25,000 hiring managers over the age of 40 with at least five employees in the knowledge industry. So we're talking about banking, insurance, anything in business. And we asked them, we gave them the definition of all the values and we said what are the, what's the number one value you're looking for? We thought this is the way to construct this survey. When you sorted through all that data, the number one value that hiring managers are looking for in Gen Z is achievement. Okay, Achievement. The desire to win. The desire to have mastery and success. The desire to be on the winning team. Achievement. This is no surprise that bosses would want people who wanted to achieve. Okay, because you're trying to make your numbers. What was the number two value that they wanted? They wanted work centrism. People who like to work, who work for work's sake, who enjoy going to work, who don't mind putting in long hours, who think that work is the organizing principle of your life. And the number three value that they identified was scope. This is the value that expresses how much you want to learn, how much action you want. It captures travel and adventure and people who are sort of action junkies, people who want to. One of my favorite students in Becoming you one time scope was her number one value. And she said I want to touch everyone's brain. And so BO has said okay. When we look at Gen Z, we're looking for people who have number one achievement, number two work centrism and number three Scope. Well, you cross reference that data, the Gen Z values and what the hiring managers are looking for and you crunch the numbers and what comes out is that 2% of Gen Z has the values that hiring managers are looking for. And so look, what you can do as Gen Z to get hired, especially if it's a competitive industry, is if you are in the 2%, say I'm in the 2%. If they don't know what it means, you can say I have very high achievement, I have very high work centrism. We recently hired somebody to the company who literally in the interview said, I am willing to work weekends. He volunteered the information that he would work weekends. And I'm telling you, it wasn't like we're asking people to work weekends. We do sometimes, as you know, but it was like, whoa, he wants to work weekends. I mean it was like he was making it clear that he was in the 2%. Okay, now here's the problem.

[Jenna Caravira]

Problem.

[Susie Welch]

Most Gen zers going to interviews have those values I talked about. And I don't want anybody to lie. I don't want anybody to go into an. It's not a winning game to go in and say, I really love winning. I really want to work all the time and I'm an action junkie if you are none of those things, okay? That having been said, you need to understand that a boss is already predisposed against you because you're Gen Z. They've already heard all the bad news, okay? You know, like when I'm at dinner party parties and that's how we oldster socialized dinner parties. When I'm at dinner parties and the talk gets to Gen Z, the war stories going back and forth around the table are, you know, like they didn't want to come to a meeting at 8 o'. Clock, they said it was too early. And then all of us break into peels of laughter, okay? About how obnoxious this is, you know, and like she said she wanted to be included into more C suite meetings. Then we all throw back our heads and laugh, okay? Because this person's 21, so they're predisposed not to hire you because they're afraid of your value values. And so if you want a boss to take a chance on you and you happen to have one of those values or you happen to at least entertain the idea that you might have more of that value, it's worth saying. It's worth saying, like, I want this company to win. Like to a boss, the phrase I want this company to win. They might just go home and have a heart attack. They'd be so happy to hear it. Okay. Or like, I don't mind working hard. I know I, you know, I'm not here counting my hours. I mean, just say something like that. Do you remember in your interview, interview, I asked you, do you want this job? I think I. Right. I like, I ask job people, do you want this job? What I want to have happen. But you have not been trained to do it. Okay, Nobody's trained to do this because it's kind of awkward. Is literally in the interview, say, I want this job. I really want this job. Like, show that you want the job. Show that you want to win. And say things like, I can't wait to learn and grow. So, like, I think the way you predispose them to you is you have to. You're going to have to overcome what they already think of as about you. And then if it's true about you. And again, I don't want anybody saying anything that's not true. I'm going to guess it's somewhat true about you if you're listening to this podcast. I mean, if it's true about you, say it. I want this company to win. I want to win. I want a big career. I want to succeed. I want to be the company that's growing. It's going to help you to say it if it's true. If it's not true, again, that's a different conversation. If it's not true, you're going to have to be looking at a different kind of company maybe than you're looking at. They're not going to be expecting you to say this. If you're going to work at a nonprofit like the, you know, the Brooklyn Museum or the, you know, the Zoo or something like that. Because nonprofits have a different kind of expectation. Because. Because the salaries are lower. If you can say it, say it.

[Jenna Caravira]

I feel like getting the job is one part. But then there's also a matter of keeping the job with AI. So many companies are doing mass layoffs. Like, how do you continue to show that these values are present in your work?

[Susie Welch]

Yeah, keeping the job is big. Okay, so I have some advice around keeping the job. So obviously you've got to know what success looks like in your job. And sometimes bosses are very human and they don't tell you. And so you have to go ask them. Okay, your boss is busy. Your boss has got a million other things to do. Your boss has got a boss. Okay. And so your Boss is thinking about their boss and if they are not telling you exactly this is what success looks like, you've got to say, do you have 10 minutes and step in and say, can you tell me exactly what success looks like in this job? What would I be doing for to be successful? Okay, so it's on you. If you're in a well run company, your boss has told you that. How many people work in well run companies? 17. I mean like very few people work in well run companies and I think we're a well run company and you know, but we don't do it enough. You have to know what success looks like. So that's number one. Number two, your currency is your currency. And let me explain what that means. Your currency is your currency to stay employed. You have to know what the future looks like and have a curiosity about it. You have to know what your industry is panning out. You've got to know the players. You've got to kind of, you know, you know, when you really love a sports team, you feel, follow them and you read about them and you, you follow them on all your feeds. You know who the players are, you know who might get traded to them. You know what's going on in, you know, like oh this, there's this new kind of thing happening in the sport, like golf. You know, like when the, when it looked like golf was going to blow up because of the new league and so forth, people who like followed golf were all on top of it. They knew the players. You have to be that way about your, your industry and go to meetings and sort of say this thing is happening in our industry, this person is rising. And, and I always have the CEO mindset, mindset about curiosity about what's coming. You have to have that and it makes you much more valuable and it also keeps you ahead of what's coming. And so it's like your currency, like how current you are is your currency, how much worth you have to the organization. So staying on the cutting edge of your industry, your work, your field, bringing to the table, like, hey, there's this new software, you know, in our own company. It's amazing to me if you think about Richard, who's our cto, how much he knows about new tools and new ideas. Like he is so on the cut, cutting edge of everything that's always coming out. His currency is, is currency and he's always know something new. And you just can't sit back and not know about what's coming. So I think that's how you keep your job. You know exactly what it takes to be not just okay, but like, what does A plus performance look like in this job? Please be specific. It's your boss's job to answer you. And again, bosses are humans and therefore sometimes not very good at this. So it's on you to say, could you be more specific about. About that? You know what? Again, like, is this better than this, or would you rather have me do this or this? Okay. Like, actually, somebody on my own team, on our team, sat down with me the other day and said, when you go write the book, I have to go away to write the book a little bit. How do you want me to handle this kind of situation? And I was vague, and he pushed me to be more specific. And that's on you to push your boss to be specific as possible to help you do your job very well. What does excellence look like? And then for you to put on yourself this absolute stretching of your wonderment about the present and the future in your field. Is that helpful?

[Jenna Caravira]

Very helpful. Very, very.

[Susie Welch]

They have to say that.

[Kevin Castro]

Okay, backing it up a little. What would you say to people that have been in the same position that I and Jenna have been in, where we have been applying to hundreds of jobs, keeping that spreadsheet? Where do we find the jobs? And. Yeah, like, how would you approach finding a job if you were.

[Susie Welch]

Yeah. All right, so I have dear, dear friends at LinkedIn, and I love LinkedIn. Okay. And I. And I think dissimilar to it, and I think what happens is we become captive of these big platforms, and we think that's how we're going to get the job. We're going to get the job by hitting that button over and over again on LinkedIn or. But I'm pretty sure that you got your job through friends. Right? Right. And how about. How did you find us? We found you. You applied to us.

[Kevin Castro]

I think I applied to you and then I got an email to apply.

[Susie Welch]

Right. All right. So some of that happens. All right. But I think that you can't just rely on the big machinery. I don't like the word networking because I think networking is misunderstood and kind of mercenary, But I like better when you're just talking to friends. Okay. Networking, it boils down to, like, you go to a meeting, you hand somebody a card, and nothing ever happens. But I think you've got to constantly be asking people, do you know of anything? Here's something I can do. I think that, that that's how jobs are happening more and more. It's actually very retro. You're in this position, you think the way to do it is to keep a spreadsheet and to hit the button over and over and over again. I think that you have to add another piece on it where you are, are at the dentist and you literally say to your dentist, by the way, I am job hunting and blah blah. And he might say, yeah, oh my God, my next door neighbor is X, Y and Z and, and I. And it feels cringe. It feels like you're overstepping, it feels inappropriate. You feel kind of desperate. Naming the elephant in the room and literally saying something like this feels cringe. And I don't want to sound desperate, but blank. So what if you strike out? Big deal. You know, you got to have a thick skin for this process. So I think it's, it's that, I think it's actually asking people. Sometimes you just have to ask, you know, who do you know, can you help me out? And I would say this other thing. Sometimes one thing that really, really helps you. And you, you may hate this idea. I'm very interested to hear your response to it. Sometimes when you're looking, you should get any kind of job just to be working because it's going to put you in touch with more people. So I, my daughter had a friend who was not finding a job, not finding a job. And she got a job just to fill the hours as a nursery school school aid, like the assistant to the nursery school teacher. And it was like hourly, it was almost no money whatsoever. But it was a job she could get, right? And she ended up getting her job through the parent of one of the kids. Okay. She was just being exposed to more people. She had a conversation, the parent asked her, you know, what are you doing here? And she said, well, I'm actually in the film business, blah blah, blah. And he said, oh, you know, I know somebody. And she ended up getting a job that way. So I'd say it's actually also kind of good for you to have an organizing principle in your life when you're looking for a job because it can get pretty dark. You find yourself doom scrolling. You watch a little bit too much tv, you go out a little bit too late, you have one too many drinks. But when you're out with your friends and it can be a very amorphous, unstructured time. I'm a gigantic fan of structuring your time while you're looking for a job. So even if you get a part time job while you're looking I would recommend.

[Jenna Caravira]

What are, what's your advice for people who are currently interviewing, talking to different companies, trying to figure out where they fit best? What are some red flags to look at for during the interview process?

[Susie Welch]

I want to actually talk about a red flag that I stopped my own daughter from doing today. So she's in the interview process and she knows a lot about the job, but she has a lot of questions about whether or not this job is going to fit certain aspects of her lifestyle. And she's going in for her second job interview and she said to me, thank God she called me. Do you think I should bring up like whether the part time workers. And I literally was screaming to the phone, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, no, no. Until you have the job in hand, do not talk about pto. Do not talk about, you know, maternity leave. Wait till the balance of power shifts and you have the job. Okay? They want you. They've announced they want you. Then you can start saying, I'd like to read the medical benefits plan and you know, do it all in like building goodwill as you do it. But these are not things you talk about before you've been offered the job. This to an employer is a gigantic red flag. Okay? They want to hear before they've hired you for better, worse. Look, everybody wants to know how much money they're going to make. Everybody wants to know. We know you're sitting there thinking about what's the pto. We get that. But we want to hear before you're hired is, I love everything about this work. I want to really work at this company. I want to help you be, I want to help you win all work Saturdays. You know, we want to hear the company line, then we want you and we, we show our hand. We are willing to hire you. Then you can start to have the conversation about the logistics. Okay? So I just want to point that out, but you had a different question, right? Which, which is if you're interviewing, what are the red flags? Okay. It's pretty hard to see the most important red flag. Okay? It's pretty hard. One of the hardest things in the whole wide world as a, especially as a new young employee is to have a boss who does not show up as the same person every day. This is agony. It's a little like having a parent who doesn't show up as the same person every day. And that is, that is a living help for any child is to have a parent who, who is unpredictable. Unpredictable. And we know that about that. One of the most damaging things to adolescents is a parent who's been unpredictable. But I think it's actually one of the most damaging things to career formation is a boss who is not emotionally sound, who shows up as a different person every day. And if you can suss this out in the job interview process, you're ahead of the game. Now a lot of times before you're hired, you meet the boss twice and so you can't tell if they're the same person. But if you meet them more than twice or if you can sort of be asking people anything, that is a gigantic red flag. If they're really upbeat and ebulent one day and the next time you interview with them, they're kind of like remote and grumpy. Morning warning. Warning. Because a boss who's like up and down, up and down is enervating. It just can undermine your self confidence. You don't know what ends up happening is you think it's you and it's actually them. And so if you can possibly in the interview process, process. Seek out a company that's emotionally sound, not toxic, and a boss who's emotionally sound. That is something you really, really want.

[Kevin Castro]

So you were once in our shoes coming out of college. What would you say is your biggest regret in that time? Either like a mindset that you had or not taking a certain action. Just anything that you might have for people to learn.

[Susie Welch]

Isn't there that song Regrets. I've had a few. Oh, Duke. I tried to sing. Okay, Everybody cry. I mean, I have a lot of regrets about early on. Here's a thing about that I would give as real advice. Okay. I think when I came out of college I must have had some insecurity because I was. I. I think I probably presented as a little bit of a snob. Like I was kind of. I wasn't going to be friends with everybody. I was going to kind of pick and choose my friends. This was clearly had to be insecurity. And I didn't early on make enough friends. I was like that. That person's kind of weird and I'm not gonna be friends with that person. I should have made friends with everybody. I was at the Miami Herald newsroom. Every single person was interesting and worth being friends with. Now, luckily I made a lot of friends, but I could have made more. And it was really, I have to say, only in my late 30s when I met Jack, who observed this trait in me that I was like reserved before I sort of became friends with people. And God, I've done a 180 on it now because, like, now I like want to be friends with every single person I see on the street because it works out so well. And Jackson said, like, why are you that way? Way, like, why do you not give people the benefit of the doubt? He literally would say things like, everybody's a friend until they're not. And I was like, no, everybody's not a friend until they are. And he said, you have it backward. He so demonstrated that this was the right attitude to have this sort of open heartedness and open mindedness towards everybody. You know, they don't have to be your bestie, for God's sake. They're just going to be a friend. They're just going to be a title in the beautiful mosaic of your life. And we then decided to really impress this attitude. I think he was afraid of the kids inheritance this trait, okay for me. And, and so when we sent our kids off to school in the morning and you know, you send your kids off to school and you say things like, don't forget lunch or you know, ace the test, not us. Jack would shout as they walked out the door one after another, love everyone. He was just counteracting mommy there. I mean, he was like, you know, don't do like your mother. Love everyone. And to this day, the kids, as a joke, when one of them is going out the door to go to the supermarket, or one of them is going to go like, you know, check the gas in the car, they will shout as if you, as you walk out the door to each other, love everyone. Because it's such a reminder of how he used to send the kids to school. And he would say sometimes say at dinner, did you love everyone today? So I think that when I came out of the workplace, I should have been more expansive in who I wanted to know, like everyone. And as soon as I got religion on that, it, it actually was enormously helpful to my entire life. Not just my career, but my entire life, my entire being. This sort of giving everyone like the absolute benefit of the doubt that they were going to be great and if they weren't great, they'd be okay. And it and my kid, I have one daughter who's a loyalist enneagram type 6 for those of you who are Enneagram fanatics. And she holds a grudge longer than I'm Sicilian, I've never seen. She puts the Sicilians to shame with the grudge holding. And she says to me, like, why do you forgive so quickly? And I was like, oh, honey, that is. I have to say, if I have one skill that saved my life so much, it's just forgiving very, very quickly. Why? I've made so many mistakes. Thank God. People have forgiven me so many times. You just gotta pick yourself up and move on, on. So I'd say for love, everybody forgive quickly. Get on with it. Yeah. Okay.

[Jenna Caravira]

Susie, I want to ask, what would make you hire someone on the spot.

[Susie Welch]

If they knew a lot about the company? Like when people come in for an interview and they're prepared, I love that. It shows resourcefulness. It shows preparation. It shows intelligence. Like, somebody comes in and they know our products, they know about me, me. They know what we're trying to do. They've done their homework. I'm like, I love it. It's really hard when somebody comes in and you're educating them about stuff they could have educated themselves about. I mean, you're like, what, who's interviewing who here? Okay. And you're like walking them through what your company is. I love it when people say, oh, no, no, I read the book. Or, oh, I've like, I was interviewing somebody the other day and they said, oh, no, I did the values bridge. And I was like a. So I. I love it. Shows that they have a kind of interest and energy and they're already in the game. They're trying to get the job. And I really, really like that a lot. All right, well, these were all fantastic questions. I hope we've been helpful to. You were fantastic representing your generation, the voices of the generation of Gen Z who are here with us today. I hope. Will you come back and do this again with me, please? I order you two. You'll think of about it. But I really think that this was so interesting and so useful and I learned from you. So thank you so much. Look, if you're out on the job market right now and you're in Gen Z or you love someone in Gen Z, you're connected with somebody in Gen Z, have hope. There are ways to navigate this very complicated job market. It starts with you. There's work to be done. You've got to be thinking about it. It doesn't happen by accident. But that's what we're here for at the Becoming youg podcast. Please come back again next week. Until then, I'm Susie Welch.