← Behind the Bastards
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- [00:00]
Robert Evans
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
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- [03:07]
Robert Evans
Cool Zone Media. Oh, welcome back to well, this is the behind the Bastards feed. And this is normally where you get new episodes behind the Bastards. But every now and then we try something new. And in the not too distant future, I'm planning to be launching a new podcast with my friend and fellow giant nerd Joe Kasabian, also a fellow podcaster. Hey Joe, how are you doing?
- [03:43]
Joe Kasabian
Hey buddy. It's good to be here.
- [03:46]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And we're wanting to do we're planning to do a podcast on Warhammer 40,000, which is a game system that some of you are probably aware of and others of you maybe aren't. I think a lot of people know about this now. It's reached kind of a point of cultural critical mass. I think a significant chunk of people on the Internet are just kind of casually aware it exists in a way that they weren't when we were kids and started playing this.
- [04:12]
Joe Kasabian
Yeah, 100%. I remember back when I first heard about Warhammer through the books, like nobody really knew what it was other than other people that would fall into that fan zone. But now anybody who doesn't even know it's a miniature, maybe they know it from the like the Total War Games or whatever. But it's definitely the biggest it's ever been.
- [04:34]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And the podcast we'll, you know, talk later about what exactly the podcast kind of things the podcast will be covering. But this episode I specifically wanted to talk about the intersection of Warhammer 40k and like pop culture and pop politics in the United States and elsewhere. Because it's wound up having a surprisingly large impact on like the way people communicate on the Internet and the way people talk about Donald Trump in particular. That's really weird. But before we get into that, cause I think that's the thing that's gonna be relevant to everybody, even the people who aren't into the game at least can get something out of this stuff. Which is why we're putting this up as our teaser episode in the Bastards Feed. But before we do that, Joe, you've got a book to plug.
- [05:17]
Joe Kasabian
I do. My debut gunpowder fantasy novel, the Highlands burn, comes out May 29th. So you can pre order it now, which is the best time to get. When it arrives, it'll be nice and fresh.
- [05:31]
Robert Evans
Excellent. Well, everyone should do that. And everyone should listen to the episode, which you have no choice but to listen to. Cause I'm gonna start reading it to you. And you're already listening to the podcast. Right? So if you're at all into social media and up to date on the current political horrors of our age, you've probably heard President Donald Trump referred to as God Emperor Trump. Currently, that phrase alone returns about 4 million results on Google. And that is a reference to Warhammer 40 in 40K, as its fans call it. The God Emperor is the founder and deity of the Imperium, a vast million world empire that includes nearly all human beings. He was once a mighty warrior and a deadbeat dad, but he spent the last 10,000 years or so hooked up to life support. So you can already see the guy likes gold. He's always covered in gold. And he's a terrible father. So you can see why Donald Trump gets compared to him from time to time. Right?
- [06:29]
Joe Kasabian
Hey, I mean, recently Trump posted a picture of himself as Jesus Christ. So maybe he's. Maybe he's starting to buy miniatures.
- [06:35]
Robert Evans
That's right. That's right. And the Emperor being a being who's lived tens of thousands of years is kind of insinuated to maybe have been Jesus, or at least somebody who like, profited, you know, was influential in starting the early church. He's been insinuated to have been basically everybody. But, you know, getting beyond that, if you haven't don't know anything about Warhammer and you just heard the phrase God Emperor Trump, you probably didn't think too much about it outside of like, oh, people are being weird about politics again in the United States, right? Couldn't be. Couldn't be, right. Trump is kind of a singular figure when it comes to global media attention. So it's not all that noteworthy that fans of a game would reference him in memes. What makes this one unique is that people using the phrase and spreading memes about it are kind of as likely to be mocking the president as praising him. It's a real Schrodinger situation. And this aspect of it is really well embodied by something very funny that happened on February 11, 2019, over in Italy. The Viaregio Carnival is an event held in Viareggio, a city in Tuscany, and has been a yearly parade in celebration since 1873. It started when a bunch of rich guys decided to make a parade with floats that would help put the city on the map in a cultural sense. And rather than funding the parade themselves, they pushed to increase taxes on working class citizens and poor processed it by wearing masks and presumably committing petty crimes. Right, so you've got like a classic story here. It really is a beautiful thing. I love a good carnival. And kind of the key feature of this is there's these huge paper mache floats, the largest of which weighs like 40 tons that people spend the year making. These are massive things, they're the size of buildings. And then like walk through the street. Right. And. Or drive through the street, I think now. And there's these big drunken parties and everybody wears masks and it's a great time. About half a million people attend each year. And 2019 was like any other year, except that the pride of the parade was a 65 foot tall sculpture of Donald Trump as the God emperor of mankind.
- [08:40]
Joe Kasabian
Joe, when you showed me this picture, I lost my shit. I had never seen this.
- [08:45]
Robert Evans
It'll be the thumbnail image of this. This one's not gonna be a video episode. Cause it's a special one. But I do kind of want people to see it. If you just Google like Trump, God, emperor, float, parade float, or something like that, you'll see pictures and it really is something. It's massive. Right.
- [09:01]
Joe Kasabian
I would love to be into the planning meeting on that one because, you know, it took a small to medium sized team to build this monster.
- [09:08]
Robert Evans
Yes.
- [09:08]
Joe Kasabian
And someone had to pitch that idea to the rest of them and explain exactly what the fuck it was.
- [09:14]
Robert Evans
It was several people's whole year. And the guy behind it is artist Fabrizio Galli, who created it as a critique of Trump's presidency. Some of this is obvious. If you like really look at the details of the statue. There are like four blue Twitter birds flying around. The sword handle, the emperor. Like this is based off of like a drawing in several drawings of the emperor, which is these guys wearing a huge golden suit of power armor with like eagle's wings on it. He's got a massive flaming sword. Everything about him is gold. Often he has glorious long flowing hair, the kind that Trump doesn't. But yeah, in the float, this big sword he had, there's like Twitter birds flying around the handle, which Fabrizio put there to make the point that Trump had weaponized Twitter against his enemies. And written on the blade in Italian was the phrase your taxes and your duties. And the specific way that these were written in Italian was meant to be, like, bring up a different phrase, which Galli summarized as meaning, here's your fucking tariffs. Right. Like, that's the blade is the tariffs. Which is kind of like prescient that he really picked those out as being a weapon in a way. They weren't nearly as much in 2019 as they are now. Yeah.
- [10:29]
Joe Kasabian
And it still kind of works as a bit of imperial propaganda within 40K. Like, this is 100% something that the Emperor would have said to, like, a planet in revolt. Like, here's your fucking tariffs.
- [10:40]
Robert Evans
Here's your fucking tariffs with a literal sword. Yeah. Fabrizio said of this quote, it's a joke, but in fact, he's trying to destroy nations with the economy instead of nuclear missiles. This is one of the strongest actions, let's say, that powerful people like Trump can use. So we'll go back to Fabrizio in a bit. But what's relevant to my point here is the point I was making earlier, is that as soon as pictures of this float get online, they go viral. People are sharing this like crazy. And Fabrizio's meaning sailed right over a lot of people's heads. I'm gonna quote now from an article in Time. Many conservative commentators on Twitter appeared to interpret the float as a tribute to Trump. Several tweeted that it was a parade for Trump. Emerald Robinson, the White House correspondent for right wing Channel One America News, wrote, this carnival in Italy looks a lot more than the Thanksgiving Day parade in New York. Just look at this Trump float.
- [11:30]
Joe Kasabian
Oh, incredible. Everybody knows it can't be a Trump float because it wasn't sponsored by Coinbase or, like, volunteer.
- [11:36]
Robert Evans
No one was selling crypto. It was 2019. It couldn't have been affiliated with Trump.
- [11:40]
Joe Kasabian
Yeah, exactly. Nobody could. Rug, pull the parade.
- [11:43]
Robert Evans
Oh, man, I do. You know, if the Emperor was a real character, he's got to be alive. He should be alive then. Cause he's like 30,000, 40,000 years old when the game starts. Which means, theoretically, the Emperor could have bought NFTs, right?
- [11:59]
Joe Kasabian
That's true.
- [12:00]
Robert Evans
His madness could be entirely driven by all of his apes getting stolen. It might be what set him down the path.
- [12:06]
Joe Kasabian
The thing that really drove him to combat chaos is someone tried to explain the concept of a slurp juice to Him?
- [12:14]
Robert Evans
No, I got a ruled humanity. You people can't govern yourselves. The fuck.
- [12:18]
Joe Kasabian
You can't be fucking trusted.
- [12:19]
Robert Evans
Yeah. So Warhammer 40,000 and the God Emperor character have existed since the 1980s. For most of the time that the game has existed, it's been a fairly obscure pastime. It requires a lot of money in order to actually play the game, and it used to require a lot of money just to, like, buy all of the books and guides that would teach you anything about the game at all. But social media and video games have introduced 40k to the masses in a way that, like, you don't have to spend a lot or even any money to at least consume the lore. A lot of people who are fans have never played the game. You know, maybe they play some video games, but a lot of people just, like, watch hours of YouTube videos. And those YouTube videos are largely regurgitating decades worth of lore that have been, like, written and stored in websites or put in wikis. Like, that's the hobby to quite a few people who call themselves fans. And so, as a result, when the long simmering US Culture war ignited the world of gaming a year or so prior to the of the Trump campaign, 40K became a battleground too. The fact that the imperium that the God Emperor ruled was, in the text of the game, a fascist state, which was, you know, largely the subject of satire in the lore, made it kind of an obvious inspiration for white nationalists looking to hide propaganda in memes. Right. The fact that, like, people who were playing 40k were usually playing one of the factions affiliated with this evil fascist space empire. Even though the game was satirizing the evil fascist space empire, part of it all meant that there was, like, some room, wiggle room, for folks to get in and try to, like, propagandize to people.
- [13:58]
Joe Kasabian
All they need is a tiny bit of. There's always enough wiggle room. It's like a mouse smashing itself under a door. There's nothing you can do.
- [14:06]
Robert Evans
Right, right. Especially since, like, it's part of its wiggle room, and part of it's like, well, what do, like, angry young men who aren't great at, like, being socialized do? Well, they spend way too much time playing games. I say, as an angry young man who wasn't, well, socialized when he was,
- [14:21]
Joe Kasabian
you know, I see myself in these
- [14:23]
Robert Evans
comments, Robert, playing a lot of Warhammer. Right? And, hey, I'm well socialized now, and I still love Warhammer. That's fine.
- [14:31]
Joe Kasabian
Goddamn right. Which is always wild to me, because warhammer is inherently a social game. It is, you know, like, even with all the video games or whatever, if that's how you want to consume it, great. But the second you cross that line and start buying minis, you have to go into a and start talking to people.
- [14:46]
Robert Evans
Yeah. At some point you're going to have to be around other people if you really want to do it. So God Emperor Trump meme started spreading on 4chan back in 2015, right around the same time Trump announced his campaign. On December 25, 2015, a YouTuber named Talet uploaded a video that collected a bunch of early memes, entitled it Donald Trump, Emperor of Mankind. Talet was a very small time creator. We're talking about 1,000 subscribers. But this particular video broke half a million views. And part of it, like the imagery in the video is there's a famous piece of art from the lore of the game that's the emperor fighting his son who betrayed him over the body of one of his other sons that was murdered by the betrayers. It's a very famous drawing and they just included that. But they had swapped out the emperor with Donald Trump very crudely. And I believe Hillary Clinton was playing the role of Horus, his evil son. I'll, I'll do a screen share so you can see this.
- [15:44]
Joe Kasabian
Joe, that is very confusing.
- [15:46]
Robert Evans
This is a real beautiful find. I think that's Hillary in there. Yeah, that's Hillary.
- [15:53]
Joe Kasabian
Oh yeah, that's Hillary.
- [15:54]
Robert Evans
That's Hillary. And then there's Donald.
- [15:57]
Joe Kasabian
Who would have thought that Donald Trump was Hillary Clinton's gene seed father?
- [16:02]
Robert Evans
Yes, it is implied the meme. Cause again, this is his son who is the evil he's fighting. So yes, this kind of is implying that Hillary Clinton was created by Donald Trump
- [16:15]
Joe Kasabian
and she's absolutely towering over him.
- [16:17]
Robert Evans
Too much. Way cooler. She just killed an angel. It's pretty sweet. So the meme broke. The God Emperor meme broke mainstream awareness in 2016 when New York Times reporter Jonathan Weissman wrote about the hate mail and threats that he received online from Trump supporters. Quote from that article, the anti Semitic hate, much of it from self identified Donald J. Trump supporters, hasn't stopped since. Trump God Emperor sent me the Nazi iconography of the shiftless hook nosed Jew. I was served an image of the ghosts of Auschwitz. The famous words arbeit macht frei replaced without irony with machen America. Great. So again, this guy and this journalist like Wiseman, doesn't recognize that this guy's making a warhammer reference or at least, yeah, it's Just like, who the fuck is this? The username of the guy messaging him. And again, like, why would he have. Right. Like, if you don't. Like, you wouldn't assume Trump God Emperor is someone referencing a video game. You just. In this context, you just assume it's a crazy fascist. Right, Right. Yeah. But about two months after that column came out, a writer with the Huffington Post, Nicko Pitney, wrote an article about the growing Trump God Emperor meme phenomenon, quote among Trump's active online supporters. Using the nickname is now commonplace. The post announcing Trump's participation in the Q and A heralded our God Emperor, and a search of the returned over 200 posts in the day after Trump's appearance. Some forum members say God Emperor is simply a tongue in cheek attempt to rile up Trump opponents who fear he would be a strong man as president. The term is attributed variously to God Emperor characters in the science fiction series Dune and a tabletop game called Warhammer 40,000. We know he can't literally be one wrote member New Jersey 908, but the phrase whips people into a frenzy, saying that we literally want a dictator.
- [18:05]
Joe Kasabian
Oh, okay.
- [18:07]
Robert Evans
Fun mark.
- [18:08]
Joe Kasabian
Even back then.
- [18:09]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it was nicer back then when they had to pretend it was a bit.
- [18:15]
Joe Kasabian
And I do have, like, well, it could be Dune. It could be Dune.
- [18:18]
Robert Evans
It could be, but it's not like, Warhammer is kind of like a lot of Warhammer was originally ripping off Dune, and the Emperor character's based heavily on Leo Atreides. Right. Like, there's. That's certainly like, Warhammer is essentially all of the sci fi that was big in the 1980s and before getting put into a blender and, like, merged together. Right.
- [18:42]
Joe Kasabian
Mixed with Thatcherite uk. Yeah.
- [18:45]
Robert Evans
As we'll talk about. Yes. So, like, the journalist there is correct that, like, yeah, I mean, they could have been, but in this case, they definitely weren't. They were talking about the emperor from 40K. Now, a big part of the appeal of the God Emperor character for these people is that he was explicitly in the lore of the game, genocidal. The way the backstory goes, you know, Warhammer 40,000 is set in the 41st millennium, like 40, like 39 or so thousand years into the future. But in the lore of the game, in, like, the. The year 30,000 or so, about 10,000 years before the current day of the setting, the Emperor, while he was still alive and healthy, launched a great crusade after unifying Earth. You know, there had been a big space empire before, but it all crashed after the AI You Know, went crazy and fucked everything up. So Earth was just like this warring mess of techno barbarians and shit. And the Emperor takes over. He unifies Earth and a bunch of gene modified super soldiers called Space Marines and he sends them out into the galaxy to commit mass genocide against all of the different alien species that he considered a threat in any human world that wouldn't bend the knee to him. Right? They just do thousands of genocides out in the galaxy. They take over like a million worlds. And this all does end badly for the Emperor, like his sons, who were his main generals that he had created in a lab too. Eventually a bunch of them betray them and he's badly wounded and he has to be on like this life support system forever and ever, which leads to the nightmare future that the game itself is set in. But the fact that none of this works for the Emperor and that again, kinda in the lore, you're not supposed to be like, ah, the Emperor, what a good guy who was doing a good thing. You're supposed to be like, oh, he's just like wiping people out for no reason. Like he was just a real dick.
- [20:31]
Joe Kasabian
Yeah, people always like to say, like, oh, it's, you know, nobody's good in the world of Warhammer. Which is true.
- [20:37]
Robert Evans
That's another important point. Yes.
- [20:39]
Joe Kasabian
But specifically the Imperium is horrible. Yeah, absolutely horrible.
- [20:46]
Robert Evans
And in the books about this genocide, there's like moments where your favorite characters are wiping out a species and the last members of the species will be like, we just wanted to be left alone. They're not subtle. The writers are not super subtle about them being the baddies.
- [21:02]
Joe Kasabian
Say what you will about Warhammer 40k, but subtle is not one of them.
- [21:06]
Robert Evans
Subtle is not something you can apply to this game. However, some people fail to see the broader message in the lore and just hone in on the things that appeal to them. And There's a great 4chan post I found from, I think July 21, 2015, where someone posts a picture and it's yet another one of those like photoshopped things where you've got like Donald Trump in the place of a space Marine. Year is now 40,000. Trump turned out to be the God Emperor and initiated the Imperium of Man, killing Zenos all day, every day in his honor. Life is good. And again, like in the game, things aren't good in the 41st millennium. The Emperor's stuck in a life support chair and everyone worships him even though he was a major atheist. And everything's falling apart all the time. Life Is not, in fact good.
- [21:53]
Joe Kasabian
And anywhere the Space Marines came from is by design terrible.
- [21:57]
Robert Evans
Right? Yeah. They're abducted child soldiers who are like genetically enhanced so they can go crack down on rebellions against the state. They're not like, it's not a. Like, it's like. It's a fun game. There's a lot of, like, the lore is interesting and the models are cool, but you're not supposed to think, boy, I wish I lived in that world. That would be silly.
- [22:19]
Joe Kasabian
Imagine if RFK Jr got the keys to the space Marine program.
- [22:23]
Robert Evans
Absolutely not.
- [22:25]
Joe Kasabian
He's already got a strategic stockpile of trend and like butter ready to go.
- [22:30]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Yeah. That's the first step towards having space Marines. They should just let RFK cook up like whatever kind of of like mammal penis based potion he can to invent the extra organs that make you a super soldier.
- [22:45]
Joe Kasabian
Fuck. He's America's first Neo Apothecary.
- [22:49]
Robert Evans
That's right. That's right. Yeah. He's the beginning of the techno barbarian tribes. So the very first edition of Warhammer 40,000, which was called Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader, it was a tabletop war game published first in 1987. Before 87, its manufacturer, Games Workshop, published a wide array of board games and miniatures, most of which were focused around fantasy wargaming and roleplaying. Tabletop war games have a long history. The ancient Greeks, we're talking thousands of years ago, had a game called Patea, where players would simulate phalanx combat using game pieces and some sort of rule system. I don't think we actually have the rules, but I don't actually know that much about it. But they did have it.
- [23:31]
Joe Kasabian
What kind of dice did they need?
- [23:32]
Robert Evans
Yeah, what kind of dice? We know The Romans had D20s, so I mean, theoretically, Right? That's true. But yeah. And there was like. It was for military training. It was to help people who were gonna be like, officers, I think, sometimes figure, like, learn the ropes and whatnot and learn to think strategically. The Romans, being Romans, plagiarized the Greeks and made their own war games, which were similar but often much more complicated. The earliest form of chess, which is a tabletop war game, was created in India in like the 600s, I think, think. And I think the 1600s is when you start to get like, modern chess. And by the 1800s and early 1900s, people had started selling and marketing war games with little lead soldiers, often simulating Napoleonic combat or like American Civil War combat. But this is when you start to get war games that at least you could recognize at a glance as the same kind of thing as Warhammer, where you've got two dudes and they're pushing little models of soldiers around a table, Right? Like, that's kind of when that comes into being. Games Workshop had been founded in 1975 by three friends who loved these first stirrings of nerd culture and wanted to make and sell games of their own. The first edition of Warhammer, which is now called Warhammer Fantasy, came out in 1983. In 1986, Games Workshop published an issue of their company magazine, White Dwarf, that featured an orc model carrying a banner with the face of Margaret Thatcher, then the Prime Minister of the uk, painted on it. And the piece was labeled Maggie's Dad Death Banner. And there's a. I'm gonna show this to you, Joe. It's fucking great. Yeah. First off, pretty good paint job like this. It's a credibly painted orc, and that's just straight up Margaret Thatcher's face on a banner with, like, a severed hand on the top. It's great.
- [25:17]
Joe Kasabian
That's good. And like, the orcs understanding of technology is pretty much Margaret Thatcher's understanding of how economics work, right?
- [25:24]
Robert Evans
Yes, yes.
- [25:28]
Joe Kasabian
If you privatize it, it go faster.
- [25:30]
Robert Evans
Yeah, that's right. In a 2023 article for the Gamer, Ben Sledge writes, she later appeared, she being Thatcher, in the Evil Within, a campaign for Warhammer fantasy roleplay. The name of the campaign itself is a reference to one of Thatcher's speeches where she infamously said, we have always to be aware of the enemy within, which is much more difficult to fight and more dangerous to liberty. She was, of course, talking about the striking miners who feared for their livelihood, livelihoods in the face of countless mine closures under her regime. The Empress Margaretha, also spelled Magrita, is a clear satirical representation of Thatcher ascending to power in 1979, the same year as the British Prime Minister.
- [26:09]
Joe Kasabian
Oh, that's so cool.
- [26:10]
Robert Evans
It gets better. Ian McGregor leads an army of orcs against Arka Zargle's dwarfs, who themselves are suffering miners if those names aren't recognizable to you. Ian McGregor was responsible for shutting down countless mines under Thatcher's orders. And Arthur Skargill was the leader of the National Union of Mine Workers during the strikes in 1984 and 1985, who later founded the Socialist Labor Party. So that's not subtle.
- [26:36]
Joe Kasabian
We have to unionize the dwarves.
- [26:37]
Robert Evans
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- [28:02]
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- [29:02]
Robert Evans
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- [29:26]
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It is unknown if Dovato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B if you have Hep B. Don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy.
- [30:01]
Robert Evans
Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872.
- [30:09]
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- [30:42]
Robert Evans
and we're back. So I think that has established politics and political satire was kind of embedded in the foundations of Warhammer from the beginning, right? Yeah, but it was also more a thing in fantasy than 40K. As Sledge notes in his article after 1987, the people making Warhammer 40,000. I think in part because 40K really started to take off and they were like, oh, this could actually be big. We probably shouldn't make so many jokes about partisan politics that might stop people from wanting to buy the game.
- [31:13]
Joe Kasabian
Maybe we shouldn't put Margaret Thatcher's face on a banner.
- [31:15]
Robert Evans
Yeah, probably should have Maggie's face on his mini ban. So they got a little more subtle with things. The politics didn't disappear entirely and you could always tell it was like punks making it in that period of time. The early years of 40K Art and lore contain many references and allusions to aspects of punk culture. So today in the game, Space Marines are these gigantic, much taller than people like monk, like heroic warrior monks, right? And they're all superhuman. They're the result of all of this genetic tinkering and, you know, they're incapable of fear. And they're these kind of like idealized, like the absolute ideal of like a stereotypical like, warrior. Right? Like that's everything a Space Marine is. That's not what they were at first. The first Space Marines were basically like mercenaries and like drafty cops of like this brutal Imperium that were there to like crack down on dissent and stuff. There's a great. From an early White Dwarf magazine. There's a piece of art that I'm showing Joe now that's like an early. It's a drawing of. There's like a punk who's been spray painting Marines out on a wall and he's got his hands against the wall and there's two space Marines standing behind him. You know, they're not taller than him because they weren't initially superhuman. They were just guys in armor. One of them's got what looks like a stun baton in his hands and then there's text underneath it that says, when the Eye of Terror blinks, ships fly between lost worlds and the rest of the galaxy. Miners ship their ores and slavers play play their loathsome trade where chance permits. The forces of the Imperium make their bringing to the lost worlds the brutal order of the Imperium, if only for a few days. So they're space cops. Right?
- [32:55]
Joe Kasabian
Space Marine cops flying through space so they could play Candy Crush and do nothing at a different location.
- [33:01]
Robert Evans
Right. That's not the only way Space Marines were depicted, but they were often depicted as that, as like cops and bullies. They were nearly always thugs. They were not, you know, they weren't like they looked cool, but like, their personalities were not cool. Right. They weren't meant to be.
- [33:19]
Joe Kasabian
Yeah. Went from being like a warrior knight to starting off as like Sully from Long Island.
- [33:25]
Robert Evans
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Strong Sully vibes in these guys. So again, even though after this point there's no more whole campaign settings created to mock like union busting and the like, the designers behind 40K were always pretty direct about the fact that the Imperium are not the good guys and the emperor is not a great leader. In fact, here's how the first ever Warhammer 40,000 rule book appears opened. For more than a hundred centuries, the Emperor has sat immobile on the golden throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium, to whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day and for whom blood is drunk and flesh eaten. Human blood and human flesh, the stuff of which the Imperium is made much
- [34:15]
Joe Kasabian
more explicit now it's. Now it's kind of couched in the pseudo religious terms that the entire Imperium exists as. But back then, it was definitely very much you couldn't hide from like, no, this is an empire that runs on blood and death.
- [34:29]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Yeah. And there's, you know, there's still that bit that intro goes on to include some of the text that they have at the start of every game book now. And they always do make the point that, like, this is a bad. This is the worst possible regime. Right. They've been very consistent about that. But I love that bit at the start which you pointed out where they're like, the Imperium runs on the blood and flesh of human beings. It's a cannibalistic nightmare regime.
- [34:53]
Joe Kasabian
Yep. Nothing changes.
- [34:54]
Robert Evans
Nothing changes. Variations of that passage have been included in basically every book of rules and lore published by Games Workshop in the years since. Unfortunately, they didn't do that in a vacuum. And over the long years of the game has existed, they also expanded the lore behind the Space Marines and turned them into what they are today. And because the Space Marines are what sold the best and what looked the coolest, most of, like, the. Especially the kids who were just getting into the hobby, got into the Space Marines were who they marketed and focused more and more of the game around. And there's a lot of different alien races and stuff in it. And obviously those had to become more monstrous to make match. Right? Because that makes the Space Marines look cooler and more heroic. And all of this led to a situation where a lot of players didn't realize really that the Imperium aren't the good guys, and that Purge the Heretic and other imperial catchphrases shouldn't be seen as admirable. But again, Space Marines look really, really cool. And Warhammer players and writers have created so much fiction and fan art over the years that a lot of people have made that aesthetic a real part of their lives. And this. This has happened in some pretty extreme cases. Probably the most extreme example of this would be the fact that if you watch enough videos put out by the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense or just a ton of combat footage from the war in Ukraine, where you can see a lot of Ukrainian soldiers, you'll inevitably run across dudes with decorations in their armor or gear that look like this. And Joe, you're seeing this now, but this is essentially a. I mean, it's a wax, like, stamp with some papers underneath it that's adhering it to the armor is how it looks.
- [36:29]
Joe Kasabian
I've seen some, but I haven't seen this.
- [36:32]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah, these are in the game. These papers adhered to armor by these wax seals. It's called an oath of moment. Right. Or purity seals, too. There's two different kinds of things that both sort of involve there being papers attached to it, but these are things like an oath of moment is before battle. Space Marines will write down what their goal is for this fight or make a vow that this, you know, the enemy won't pass this point or something. And then they'll, like, adhere that to their armor to, like, hold them to it, right? And, you know, this was like. They started putting these on the armor of the models. These, like, little bitty, like, you could see these, like, scraps of paper adhered by, like, wax seals. Because they made the power armor the Space Marines had look have more of, like, a medieval knight vibe. That's a big part of, like, the 40K aesthetic is you have, like, a lot of these medieval, like, weapons and armor, but it's also, like, futuristic. That's a big part of, like, the appeal of the aesthetic of the setting. And it appealed to people so much. And there's so many fans of Warhammer in Ukraine that, like, one, a lot of young Ukrainian men started going into battle. They started putting purity seals on their armor. Like, to the extent that, like, now people make and sell purity, like seals that you can put on your gear. Right.
- [37:48]
Joe Kasabian
I've seen, like, detachments named after, like, space Marine stuff as well.
- [37:53]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah. Like, it's. It's. It's fucking wild. And there's even, like, if you look down there, there's another example of one on a guy's armor with a bunch of, like, Warhammer patches on his body.
- [38:02]
Joe Kasabian
Yeah, yeah, it's nothing but Warhammer stuff. Going from nothing but Warhammer Mechanicus. More Space Marines got an Imperial Guard one from the. The Death Watch of Krieg.
- [38:12]
Robert Evans
Yep. Or the Death Corps.
- [38:14]
Joe Kasabian
Sorry.
- [38:14]
Robert Evans
Well, in that picture that you're looking at, Joe, came from a two year old post in the Warhammer 40K subreddit that read said greetings from Ukraine. Yeah, this has become really popular here because many of the military are Warhammer fans. So many of the volunteers who help the military try and find merchandise or patches of this type for them as a nice gift. Right. It's, I mean, and I'm not, by the way, like, we're talking about this in the context of people taking Warhammer the right way or the wrong way. I don't have any issue with this. Like, you're fighting a fucking desperate war for your survival. Do whatever you want to your, your armor, you know, that makes you feel better. It's just, it's weird. It was strange to see like this actually making its way to a real war because so many of the people fighting that war are fans of the game. Like, that's just a strange moment for the hobby.
- [39:00]
Joe Kasabian
And you can. For a comparison to how much this has jumped into mainstream consciousness. When I was in the military, we had stupid, we call them morale patches. We had super little morale patches too. I never, never saw a 40K one. I mean, this is back in the early 2000s, up until the 2020, never saw anything. Never. And so within a decade, it's just like, no, there's detachments named after space marine groups. There's, there's morale patches. Like it, it's, it's having a moment. That's for sure.
- [39:33]
Robert Evans
It's having a moment. And it's gonna get weirder, Joe, because I got another thing to show you.
- [39:37]
Joe Kasabian
Oh, boy.
- [39:37]
Robert Evans
Every year, the firearms industry gathers in Las Vegas, Nevada for the show Shot Show. It is the gun industry trade show where different companies show off new weapons, both firearms that are meant for civilian use and for police and for the military. And one big trend, as I'm sure you know, Joe, in military arms design over the last couple of decades, but it's really escalated over the last 10 or 15 years, have been small, portable, semi automatic and automatic grenade launchers, in many cases ones that can fire like smart grenades, right, where you have a degree of control on like when it detonates, how far it has to go. Right? Like, like that's a big. It's like a major area in which weapons have like weapons development has leapt forward over the course of the last like 20 something years in this regard. You have a lot more options there than you used to for grenade launchers of that type. And Periodically, you know, as some of these different products that are like. Because the main weapon that a space Marine carries is called a bolter. And it's this big cool looking rifle that's actually not like a rifle at all. It fires basically like a rocket munition. That one charge shoots the munition out the barrel and then a secondary charge actually ignites the rocket and then the rocket will like shoot towards its target and blow up. And you know, they're huge guns meant for future, terrifying post human war. And periodically when you'd see one of these new automatic grenade launchers, people online would be like, oh, that looks like a bolter. We're finally making real bolters. Right? Because that's kind of what they, they look like. And this year at Shot Show, Barrett, which is a company that makes very fucking big guns, brought a semi automatic grenade launcher painted in ultramarines blue with a fucking an oath of moment attached to the barrel.
- [41:19]
Joe Kasabian
Oh, wow.
- [41:20]
Robert Evans
Hey everyone, Robert here, the maker of that 30 millimeter grenade launcher was actually Mars Inc. Not Barrett. I made the mistake because both Mars and Barrett are making basically identical 30mm grenade launchers and competing to get a contract from the US military for this program called the SSRS system. And both had models of the SSRS on display at Shot show, but it was Mars Inc. That painted theirs up to look like a bolter and put a purity seal on it. Thank you.
- [41:46]
Joe Kasabian
I have to wonder what Games Workshop feels about this. Oh yeah, yeah, that's just straight up 40k.
- [41:54]
Robert Evans
That's just a bolter. Yeah, Ultramarines blue and everything on there like it's fucking wild. Yeah. So whether or not you think that's cool depends on your attitude towards the arms industry. Again, you can think about that however you want, but it represents a kind of awkward problem for Games Workshop. The fact that stuff like this is happening is evidence of the insane degree of cultural penetration that Warhammer has achieved. But having real weapons made in the image of your video game or of your game weapons can be problematic too. Right?
- [42:25]
Joe Kasabian
Yeah. You don't want to be connected to someone being actually murdered by your product.
- [42:31]
Robert Evans
Right, right. Like that, that can be a problem. And speaking of things that are problematic, the sponsors of this show.
- [42:42]
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- [43:43]
Robert Evans
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- [44:07]
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- [44:42]
Robert Evans
Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872.
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- [45:53]
Robert Evans
We're back. So as I kind of brought up before we went to break the wide popularity of Warhammer has increasingly forced problematic confrontation both between sort of how much people like it and how many things they want to stick Warhammer on and what the company Games Workshop may want Warhammer stuck on and between like groups of fans themselves. And about four years ago, Spain's largest Warhammer tournament let a guy play while wearing Nazi paraphernalia. And I believe his army was kind of like Nazi themed too. Like it was like a Wehrmacht themed guard army or something if I'm remembering correct. But he was like wearing Nazi shit. And he'd entered the tournament under the name Austrian Painter. Like real fucking subtle my dude. And people weren't thrilled about this. I'm going to quote from an article in Polygon GT Talavera Tournament organizers gave comment to tabletop war gaming site Spiky Bits stating that the club repudiates the Nazi mentality in all its aspects. Nazi ideas have no place in our group because they are contrary to everything we stand for. The organizer said that the player said he would not leave unless unless they involved the punishment police, as displaying Nazi imagery is not illegal in Spain. The organizers hesitated lest this bring legal trouble upon their club. And I don't know enough about the situation to know, like were these guys really just backed into a completely fucked corner and didn't have a lot of options? Should that probably. I'm going to guess they could have and should have done more, but I don't really know much about that. What I do know is that this causes a lot of people to get pissed off online and it blows up enough that Games Workshop has to publish an announcement on November 19, 2021. The Imperium is driven by hate. Warhammer is not. And in this announcement there's a couple of interesting lines. First off, they're pointing out that like look, the Imperium of Man is a cautionary table. Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, it is satirical. They go through the definition of what satire is, right? Like that's literally in this little article that they put up. And then they note that said certain real world hate groups and adherents to historical ideologies better left in the past, sometimes seek to claim intellectual properties for their own enjoyment and cooperate them for their own agendas. We've said it before, but a reminder about what we believe in. We believe in and support a community united by shared values of mutual kindness and respect. Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. We will never accept nor condone any form of prejudice, hatred or abuse in our company or in the Warhammer hobby. And then they basically, they straight out say, if you come to a Games Workshop event or store and wear symbols of a hate group, we'll ask you to leave. We don't want your money. Money.
- [48:29]
Joe Kasabian
Some things don't need to be said aloud until they do. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's, it's, it's an implication. And to be fair, in most places in Europe, this would have been against the law. Spain, however, is different for, for different reasons.
- [48:43]
Robert Evans
Yeah, yeah, it's that siesta vibe. You know, sometimes it applies a little further than it ought to. And I, I want to note 2, to be fair, I don't want it to seem like. Cause as you noted, this isn't a thing you have to say until you do. There's some valid critiques that there were other things that cropped up for a few years prior to this that Games Workshop should have made a statement earlier. I'm certainly not saying they shouldn't have. We may dig into some of that later as the podcast goes on. But they haven't handled this perfectly. But that's a pretty good message, right? That we don't want your money and we don't want you in the hobby. And it's good that they did say something of interest. Right. You know, this is a publicly traded corporation. They're not a, they're not a culture warrior and they're not an activist. Yeah, but like, I'm glad that something got fucking said. And they've. That's not the only thing they've done in the last couple of years. There's been some more subtle and some less subtle moves. You know, one thing that happened recently. So for years, a lot of fans have asked for, like, as the gay cause. As Warhammer's gotten more popular, more women have played and they've added in more female models for different. Different sides and stuff. There's more female Guardsmen than there used to be. More female Eldar. And they've at least. And the Sisters of Battle, which is an all female line, has gotten a refreshed line and a lot more attention. They've done this a few ways. But a lot of people want there to be female Space Marines. And this is kind of still a topic of a lot of debate within the actual lore itself. The Emperor. They can only be male because of how the Emperor designed their gene seed. And so. And the real reason for this obviously is that like, nobody thought about it in 1987 that they would want there to be female models for Space Marines. They weren't thinking about that kind of stuff.
- [50:32]
Joe Kasabian
And it would hardly be the first bit of lore that was retconned. Like the tapestry of Warhammer lore is a series of retconnings.
- [50:40]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And that said, I also do kind of one thing that I appreciate is in some of the more recent lore when they've gone back to like, like talk, like feature. Have books that feature the Emperor and talk about the creation of the Space Marines. One way they've kind of retconned things is cause there's a conversation between the Emperor and one of his top advisors who's like, I thought you should have made all the primarchs, you know, your sons that were the leaders of these legions women. Like they should have all been girls. They're leaders in the space. Cause we would have had less problems. They wouldn't have all wound up going to fucking war with you. They would have been less annoying. And I kind of do like the idea that all Space Marines are men. Because the Emperor's just kind of a misogynist and it led up destroying him. Right. The fact that he. Yeah, it kind of does. Like, it sort of works. But one thing Games Workshop did do recently is they introduced the Emperor's bodyguard or these other group of fucking future super soldiers. The custodes. Who? Or the custodes whatever fucking fake Latin pronunciation you want to use. And they've been adding like female sculpts, like female heads and stuff. You can only really tell with the faces. But a chunk of people online lost their goddamn minds. I'll tell you that right now. The most. Wow, I'm so surprised by this crazy over this shit. And it's very funny because you'll see them posting stuff like, you know, if you just want to play the hobby, play the hobby. But don't come into my culture and try to like change it because like you want to, you want there to be blue haired, you know, girls in your. In my fucking game and my culture. Yeah. A lot of these guys being like, oh, this is going to destroy the hobby. Like, this is like once woke gets and it ruins everything. Fucking Warhammer has never been worth more money. Like Games Workshop is one of the most valuable corporations in the entire United Kingdom. Fucking little plastic models of space marines and orcs and shit are worth more than fishing to the British economy. And it's an island.
- [52:34]
Joe Kasabian
I can play these weird space monsters like Tyranids or orcs, but you know, when, when you add women to the mix, really ruining the immersion.
- [52:43]
Robert Evans
What's the wampum? I can't believe. Believe it.
- [52:49]
Joe Kasabian
Fucking insane, man.
- [52:50]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's very silly. And at its core, this is a culture war centered over a very important problem for creatives though, which is that when you're creating fictional fascist organizations, whether they're impossibly advanced sci fi empires or a cult of deranged post apocalyptic bikers, there's a risk that you're gonna make that some of the fans of your work will be fans of those fictional fascists. And not as in a I just think they look cool way, but in a I have some opinions about, you know, this racial group way. Right. And real fascists, as we noted, have spent decades getting really good at using stuff like that as a bridge to start propagandizing to young people. Whether we like it or not, fictional worlds are battlegrounds in the broader culture war against descendant fascist sentiment worldwide. Fabrizio Galli, the creator of that God Emperor Trump float that we started this episode discussing, discussing, said something similar in an interview that I read on heavy.com. the time of intellectuals, philosophers and of old and worn culture is over. We have entered the era of fantasy, video games and virtual life. Yeah, right on the nose there, 2019. But bang, hit the target.
- [54:03]
Joe Kasabian
Oh, I hate, I hate when you read something from now several years ago. Yep, that's just everything. Now that is just everything.
- [54:14]
Robert Evans
Yep, that's just everything. Well, Joe, I think that's all I've got here, you know. How are you feeling?
- [54:23]
Joe Kasabian
I'm feeling good, Robert. And I hate to say it because I love talking about Warhammer and I
- [54:30]
Robert Evans
love talking about it's paid to talk
- [54:31]
Joe Kasabian
about Warhammer and I love the weird shit that comes out of it, especially here, hearing stuff like this Because I don't want people to like this to be their first introduction to Warhammer. Like, oh, wow, it's populated by fascists.
- [54:43]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [54:44]
Joe Kasabian
I go to a local Warhammer club where I live. I'm not going to dox it, but it is full of incredibly lovely people and probably one of the most diverse rooms I've ever been in in the Netherlands.
- [54:54]
Robert Evans
Yeah, it's good that you. Maybe we could close out talking about stuff like this. Because as conservative a weirdo as I was as a kid, I really do think playing Warhammer was one of the healthier things for me in terms of connecting me to other people who believed different things, even within the context of a fucking gaming group at a hobby store. In the early 2000s. I remember after the invasion of Iraq, a few weeks or months after, my friends and I, somebody brought in a printout of a missile strike on, I think it was a BMP on an Iraqi troop transport. You could see frame by this thing blowing up with like people inside it. And we're fucking shitty kids in Texas being like, whoa. Like, look, I've never. I'd never seen anything like that. And one of the guys we gamed with was like a veteran who'd been like a tanker. I think he had fought in Desert Storm and was not like, I had always assumed was a pretty conservative guy and was not like the most like, was a man in like his 40s or 50s who would yell at children over the rules of a video or of a tabletop game. Right?
- [55:59]
Joe Kasabian
Hell yeah.
- [56:00]
Robert Evans
Like that kind of dude. But also when he saw what we were doing and he realized what it was a picture of, he was like, don't do that. Like there were people in there. You don't laugh at something like that. It's not cool. It's not something to go whoa over. It's not a game. It's the most terrifying thing you can possibly imagine and you need to have more respect. And as a fucking 12 year old little piece of shit that actually hit and impacted me and. And I was like, oh, yeah. I was kind of. If like fucking. This guy is calling me out for being a dick, I might have been being a dick.
- [56:37]
Joe Kasabian
Meanwhile, he's dressed head to toe in Imperial Guard cosplay. You shouldn't do that.
- [56:41]
Robert Evans
Absolutely. Hey, man, death isn't funny. Covered in skulls. Head to toe. All right, Joe, you wanna plug your book before we roll out here?
- [56:52]
Joe Kasabian
Yeah. So I am the host of the history podcast the Lions Led by Donkeys. So if you like military history, check it out. And my first gunpowder fantasy novel, the Highlands burn comes out May 29th and you can digitally pre order it now, so check that out. Reviews are coming in. They're very positive and I'm really excited for it to release.
- [57:13]
Robert Evans
Excellent. I am very excited to read it and excited for our listeners to read it. And also Joe, I'm excited for you and I to have a podcast about Warhammer. When's it coming out? Neither of us know.
- [57:27]
Joe Kasabian
Hell yeah.
- [57:28]
Robert Evans
There's gonna be a little bit of a delay like we're currently dealing with. You know, there's a lot of logistical issues including like just bringing you on and signing contracts cause you're in a different country and stuff. We'll figure it out. There will be a podcast and it'll be a weekly show. It'll come out at some point this year. We just don't know exactly when yet. But we wanted to tease the idea for all of you and show you kind of what we've got coming down the pipe. Cause we've both kind of teased this online and social media a couple times and I felt like bad about not putting something out.
- [58:00]
Joe Kasabian
People had noticed. Yeah, people had noticed.
- [58:05]
Robert Evans
So we'll be getting you. We'll have more coming out soon. The show will be usually 40 minute to an hour long episodes. We'll be covering history and the lore in game. We'll be covering real world, reporting on different controversies around the game. You have a great pitch for that based on another one of these like weird political culture war things that hits like a convention where people are like playing and gaming and doing like painting contests and how the community deals with it. So we'll be talking about like both real life, how this, this hobby is influencing and has been influenced by the shit going on in the world. And we're going to talk about just the nerdy shit that we love. Like I'm looking forward to putting together a painfully detailed history of like the concept of a space marine in sci fi fiction and how that's led us to like games workshop. Building an empire.
- [58:54]
Joe Kasabian
Yes.
- [58:55]
Robert Evans
Yeah. And yeah. What are you most excited to talk about?
- [58:59]
Joe Kasabian
I'm incredibly excited to talk about and explain how the Imperial Guard works to people and how they die by the tens of millions.
- [59:09]
Robert Evans
Yeah. Well, that's all for today folks. We'll be back later. I mean, at some point with a show.
- [59:17]
Pets Best Insurance Ad
Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.
- [59:20]
Robert Evans
For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit
- [59:22]
Pets Best Insurance Ad
our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.
- [59:35]
Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship Ad
This January, Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship takes over the ocean. The inaugural Bruise Crew sails for Miami to the Bahamas aboard the Norwegian Jewel. Three straight days with pool deck, bare knuckle fights in the Caribbean, massive parties, beach events, DJs, cigars, tequila tastings and non stop action, the lineup reveals. Coming soon. Cabins are disappearing fast and the prices won't stay this low. Reserve your spot with just 200 down@bkfsea.com
- [60:05]
Robert Evans
the Second World War is the largest event in human history.
- [60:08]
Public Investing Ad
History a 20 part documentary series with Tom Hanks. No part of the globe was untouched, no life unchanged. Experience the ultimate account of World War II.
- [60:21]
Robert Evans
Every single person had a story. These are the stories that make us who we are.
- [60:29]
Public Investing Ad
World War II with Tom Hanks premieres Memorial Day at 8. Part of history honors 250 only on the Hill History Channel A Better Help
- [60:36]
BetterHelp Ad
Ad May is Mental Health Awareness Month, a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to do it alone. Right now, most Americans are struggling. Nearly two thirds report feeling anxious. More than half say financial stress is a major source. And even though 85% of people believe seeking support is important, many still don't take that step.
- [61:01]
Robert Evans
Step.
- [61:02]
BetterHelp Ad
That's where BetterHelp comes in. With BetterHelp, you can connect with a licensed therapist who's there with you to listen, understand and support you on your terms. Schedule sessions conveniently via the app and talk to your therapist by video phone or live chat. BetterHelp matches you with a therapist who's with you through life's ups and downs. Because no journey should be a long alone. Sign up now and get 10% off@betterhelp.com that's betterhelp.com this is Martha Stewart from
- [61:37]
Martha Stewart
the Martha Stewart Podcast. Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret Getting ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens Countertop Prep paper Just lightly wet the counter beforehand so the paper grips and stays in place. Then lay down the Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper so drips and spills stay on the paper, not all over your kitchen counter. You can roll out dough, prep a party spread or cook alongside family. When you're done, cleanup is as simple as lifting the paper and revealing that clean counter underneath. Effortless. You can use it for cooking and baking, prep and even crafting, especially when you need extra working space. Space because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters the food, the people, and the moment. It may look effortless but now you know. It's Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Take a tip from me. Wet it, set it, prep it. Done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Available now in the Reynolds wrap aisle in Walmart, Mart, Target, Amazon, and Costco.
- [62:51]
American Medical Association Ad
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [62:53]
Robert Evans
Guaranteed Human.