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- [00:00]
Dana Elkurd
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
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- [01:05]
Robert Evans
This is the story of the One as head of maintenance at a concert hall, he knows the show must always go on. That's why he works behind the scenes, ensuring every light is working, the H Vac is humming and his facility shines with Grainger's supplies and solutions for every challenge he faces.
- [01:23]
Dana Elkurd
Plus 24.
- [01:24]
Robert Evans
7 customer support. His venue never misses a beat. Call quickgranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. I always had to be so good. No one could ignore me, carve my path with data and drive. But some people only see who I am on paper. The paper ceiling, the limitations from degree screens to stereotypes that are holding back over 70 million stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time for skills to speak for themselves. Find resources for breaking through barriers@taylorpapercealing.org brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.
- [02:05]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Do you want to hear the secrets of psychopaths, Murderers, sex offenders? In this episode, I offer tips from them. I'm Dr. Leslie, forensic psychologist. This is a podcast where I cut through the noise with real talk.
- [02:17]
Dana Elkurd
When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like, snooze.
- [02:21]
Garrison Davis
We ended up talking for hours and I was like, this girl is my best friend.
- [02:24]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Let's talk about safety and strategies to protect yourself and and your loved ones. Listen to Intentionally disturbing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:39]
Michael Tura
Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know, this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna be nothing new here for you. But you can make your own decisions.
- [03:04]
Robert Evans
What's up, y'?
- [03:05]
Garrison Davis
All?
- [03:05]
Robert Evans
It's your favorite cousin again. Prop is in the building. You know what I'm saying? Well, in your earbuds or speakers, however the hell you listen to this, your favorite cousin is here. I am going to assume that that is the truth. And since you can't answer me, we just gonna go with that. It's been a while since I tapped in with y'.
- [03:24]
Dana Elkurd
All.
- [03:24]
Robert Evans
I ruined your music festivals and then told you about your municipalities and your waters. Somebody reached out to us who, you know, gestures wildly. We have not been able to give back to her, but about how she was a part of an effort to non privatize the water inside of her neighborhood and district and they won. So shout out to you, we apologize if you've. You know, our job has not been boring since the start of 2025, but today I'mma bring you some blackness, some genuine blackness, and then some. This has to be a black conversation because you motherfuckers are racist. I have to approach it like this because crime has become a color mute term in the era of Trump. It kind of always has been, but it's really obvious now with the National Guard being unleashed onto the streets of Washington, D.C. there's this some sort of clearly obvious conflation between the houseless population, poverty, crime, black folks. Like, it's all kind of like one thing with this fool, which is not rocket science for y'. All. It's just, you know what he talking about? You know how I know this? How he thinks is because whenever he talks about black people supporting him, he talks about criminal reform, because apparently that's what all black people care about. Only just like, you know, when he say immigration, he mean Latino. And the whole not feeling safe is just because, you know, the crime that the houseless population of D.C. have is being, you know, that's the crime. Because they. No one has ever given me a legitimate reason as to why not having a place to stay is a crime. Hell, you know, Margaret Killjoy and them have this whole joint about loitering and loitering laws like truancies. I'm getting ahead of myself. The point is, the crime is that you Exist. So today I want to talk to y' all about something that y' all already know, which is it's never been about the crime. All right, now, first of all, some stuff that don't matter. Y' all still following Drake? I don't know if y' all like, okay, my crowd is following Drake. Let me stop making a difference between us. But listen, so you know Drake suing UMG and his label over, you know, not like Us, and just proving that he's not like us. Anyway, the new thing in this man's lawsuit is he's demanding UMG bring evidence over the Push the teeth thing. What do I mean by the push the teeth thing? When Push the T came at him, which we can all agree if you in the rap, he won, also shout out to clips. So when you go back to the Pusha Teeth time, this is the back to back, and I'm charged up. That time, he was like, yo, now I'm going to show y' all the emails. And y' all bring in the emails from when you guys were suppressing Pusha T's stuff. When you guys were like, making sure that, like, it got copyright claimed and stuff, getting off the streamers and pulled down all to say, man, you helped me suppress this man's music when Pusha T came after me. Why y' all don't do it with not like us? Which means your corny ass you just told on yourself. Oh, so Pusha was right. So what you saying is, and you trying to take down Kendrick, you done snitched on 2018. You right. Okay, so because you had the label interfere with this battle, fam. Now, if you want to hear some more like real, just rapping ass rappers, there's this great battle that was going on between Joey Badass and Rayvon. And then somehow it became a triple with this dude named Daylight and this other brother named Reason. These were some really, really dope bars. Now Absol got into the middle of it, but now Absol Rhapsody and. And Joey are going on tour, which sucks. Cause I'm on the same management team as all of them, and I ain't on that tour. I wish I was, though. It'd be a rapping, rapping tour. But I definitely don't do the numbers. They do anyway today. You know, in light of, like I said, the. The feds in D.C. trump keep claiming these emergency cases that gives him these powers to do these different things. And as a side Note, remember when J6 happened and he was like, well, Nancy Pelosi should have called in the National Guard. She ain't calling in the passenger guard. What was President Trump supposed to do? Well, I would think what he's doing now, because they used to say, these same people that was arguing that Trump ain't had the power to stop it, meaning he didn't have the power to call in the National Guard, are also praising him right now for using his presidential power to call in the National Guard. Boy, I tell you, racism make you dumb as hell. But in light of this, despite all evidence showing that the crime rate has dropped 30% in D.C. this man still keeps talking about the crime wave and the safety or the lack of safety that people feel in D.C. now, I'm gonna let Bridget do a full episode on really what's going on in Chocolate City. My mama from D.C. you know, my whole mama side of the family's still out there. So I used to spend every other summer in D.C. now, don't get me wrong, being down 30% is absolutely a positive, but D.C. ain't safe. Now, it depends on what part you in. See, that's the thing about crime statistics. But before I get into crime statistics, I need to talk about the concept of crime, period. This will be no surprise to y', all, because you listen to Cool's own media, Crime is made up. Now, criminal, crime, I think it's very important to understand that it is a social construct. Now, what do I mean by that? What I mean is it's situational, right? How the same act can mean two different things. Now, this is a conceptual thing that obviously our felt experience is a little more real. But let me give you an example. Let a disaster hit. A hurricane, an earthquake, a flood. If I go into that grocery store and get some bread, am I looting or scavenging? Am I stealing or surviving? And the answer is, depends on what color you are. Crime's a social construct. Because if that's the case, how is George Zimmerman still walking? Having said that, one could take this argument and go super bonkers on it and say the same thing about pedophilia. Like, who's to say that what Epstein did is a crime? Because, like you said, crime is a social construct. Here's my answer to that. It's social because we live in a social society, fam. Although borders are made up, so is money, and so are driver's licenses. Of course, there's no force field at the 49th parallel that separates Canada from America. However, we have decided that before you get behind the wheel of a car, you better have passed some Sort of examination for us to know that you safe enough to drive behind this. You could physically drive this car. But we live in a society that says, hey, homie, I need you to make sure we need to have some sort of due diligence. We have decided as a species that is self aware that our children matter. Their safety is important to us. The person standing next to you has the right to exist. Whether you like that person or not, they have the right to exist. You cannot hold them against they will. That's habeas corpus. Apparently, unbeknownst to Kristi Noem, who clearly don't know what habeas corpus means. That's a whole other topic. What is criminal and what is lawful is something that we've agreed upon in our social contract. Now, we, however, live in a modern, secular democracy which says that we have a say in what becomes laws or not. So ain't got to just lay down and let you just call stuff a crime that ain't a crime or that shouldn't be a crime. Now, speaking of what is and isn't a crime, here's the thing. Black people been telling you to answer for a long time, specifically rappers, okay? Now, I saw a TikTok about this, and it's very irresponsible of me that I can't remember Lil Homie's name, and I can't. You know how you get the suggested, you know, or. Yeah, just stuff pop in like the. For you. I cannot find Breh Bruh's TikTok. Black man super brilliant. But he reminded me of some lyrics that Freeway said that captures the point of what we trying to make. I love this dude's TikTok, man. God, I gotta find it. Hopefully I. Hopefully I'll find it and put it in the show notes. But Freeways verse with a song with Jay Z says, we still hustle till the sun come up. Crack a 40 when the sun go down It's a cold winter y' all niggas better bundle up. I bet it's a hot summer? Grab an onion just to rock it down you hot now listen up, follow me. You don't know the cop's sole purpose is to lock us down? Throw away the key? But without this drug shit, your kids ain't got no way to eat, huh? We still trying to keep mom smiling. Cause when her teeth stop showing and her stomach start growling? Then the heat start flowing. If you from my hood, you know you feel me keep going the sneak start leaning and the heat stop working Then my heat start Working, I'mma rob me a person. Ok, now listen. These are the lyrics that little bro quoted in his TikTok. And the point he's making, which is the same point I'm making, is that he's talking about the solutions to crime. Like, he said it right there, like, I just want my mom to smile. My kids don't have any other way to eat. And then he says, when the heat stopped working, then my heat start working. I'm a rob me a person. It is resources. But again, follow. What this bro trying to tell you is that you putting law enforcement in our neighborhoods doesn't fix anything, does you? You follow this? We say. He's like, no, you just want to lock us up. That is not solving the problem. The problem is I'm hungry, My mama's hungry, my kids are hungry. My sneak start leaning. What he's talking about is his tennis shoes, his sneakers are leaning. You know when you walk on your sneakers too much in the back, your shoes in the back, how it start running around the side, then it start thinning out so it's the back of your shoe just looks uneven. That's when your sneaks are leaning. This is what he's trying to say. My stomach is rumbling. Had we had better funded schools, had we had more opportunities, he was like, I'm robbing this person because there is no other option. Now, are there other options? Maybe. But if you gonna do the math, listen, this is simple economics. If you want to make $1,000 tonight, because the rent's due tomorrow, you go over to Spanish Jose's house. Spanish Jose say, hey, listen, you ain't got to do nothing. Just put this bag in your backseat and drive to Park Slope, drop it off and come back. Or you can go work $20 an hour at McDonald's. Ain't no uncles with endowments. And check this out. Let me push you even further. Even if you a smarty uncle, even if you a smart one, the government just told Harvard that they can't recruit in my neighborhood even if I got the grades for it, because that's woke shit. So what you want? What the fuck you want me to do? Now, here's the premise of what I'm talking about, which is we know the solutions. It's never been about crime. Okay? But let me talk about some folks, some black folks who do care about the solution, who do care about crime. Because if we're talking about crime in our urban areas, who the fuck do you think the crimes are against? And see, that's the Part that make me so mad when I be talking to these people. You think we don't care because who are these crimes getting carried out against? You think we happy to see all them police? One would think if it worked, we would be happy to see all these police in our streets. But you know what? This shit don't help. Okay? What I'm gonna do in the rest of this show is prove to y', all, based on decades of research, what does reduce crime. We gonna link all the things in the bio. I knew I had to come with my A game if I'm going on. It could happen here because these some of the smartest people like y' all listen, the people on this show, y' all be reason. Y' all is like real journalists. I'm just a rapper that knows how to explain shit. So I needed to make sure that I had my ducks in a row. So I'm about to show y' all a trillion examples of where if you really, from these blocks, if you really do care about the welfare of black people, then maybe you should listen to black people. See, and let me bring in my trans community here because they problem with you. This I, to be honest with y', all, I'm going to be transparent with you. This is part of what radicalized me. Why I really started understanding trans experience is because the shit they say about us is the shit they say about you. Your crime is we just don't like you around. At the end of the day, all these laws against trans people is really just because you just think they gross. And so with us, it was just like you like what is redlining, discriminatory practices in jobs. You just don't want us around. What is white flight? You just don't want us around. And your justification of this is this made up ass word named crime and that you care that crime matter, but n you don't. Okay, I'm getting, getting ahead of myself. Let's take a break. All right, here we go. I've calmed down. So the first thing you want to think about how crime is reported, right? And the ways for which it's reported and then the geographical locations that we're talking about. So when you say the crime in Washington D.C. it's not like the crime happens in an evenly distributed thing. Like it's not all of D.C. if you will, there's Northeast, Northwest, Southeast, South, Southeast and Southwest. Now due to gentrification, Southeast, which is where Anacostia is and was at one time the sort of mecca of just like black DC of Chocolate City. We Chocolate City. The whole city was chocolate forever. Like I said, I noticed because I spent every other summer there and my mama from there. But like, Southeast D.C. is the last non gentrified area. Now, do you think is thug sitting on the national monument sipping 40 ounces? No, you out there with the tourists sipping matcha. So in one sentence, when you say crime has dropped 30%, it's like 30%? Since when? Okay, and is it averaged across all of D.C. or are you talking about in its areas where things like carjackings, homicides, and stuff like that happen? Right now, remember what I talked about a long time ago, at least on my show. Hopefully y' all remember this, that the crime rates in America is always a weird situation because we don't live in America. You live in your city, so maybe it's going crazy in your own local neighborhood so you feel like, damn, this place is wild. Or maybe, like I said, maybe you in like Northwest Portland, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know over there off Gleason, you feel me? And like, it's nice, you know what I mean? Like, you don't never see a single. But if you live over there in Chinatown next to Voodoo Donuts, dog, you seem like you walking over zombies. I don't know. What I'm trying to say is sometimes the statistics can be deceiving. Now, granny and them who, you know, bought their house a long time ago, they see the graffiti on the wall and they think, you know, yada yada, the boys like loitering outside. How do you fix it? Well, allow me to introduce you to Philadelphia, which coincidentally is where freeway is from. So the data is pretty clear. You know, if you look at the violent crime reduction report, it's at. It's literally, it's at the Department of Justice. You can read it yourself. It tells you exactly what has worked to drop. Homicide, violent crime, carjacking, theft. It tells you what has worked, what has not worked. A simple Google, right? And the intro of this is, this is a violent crime reduction between 2021 and 2025. And it says for the past three years, the Justice Department has been executing comprehensive strategies to reduce violent crime rooted in local communities. And we're seeing trends in the form of crimes being prevented and lives saved. According to available data from 2023, murder, rape, robbery, and aggregated assault is in a considerable decline in nearly 90 major cities across the country. Violent crime has continued to drop during the last six months of this year compared to the same period last year, including a 17% decrease in homicides. This is the Deputy Attorney General Moncaio on September 17, 2024. Now, to keep it very real, again, violent crime rates being up and down are obviously relative. Now, one thing was, well, we were in a pandemic, so there's that, right? Another thing is it's almost like how everybody was complaining again that crime was up is like y' all forgot the 90s existed. Like I lived it. And baby, this ain't nothing. You know, the actual fear of pain and suffering, this pales in comparison. We live in a great place in relation to what we went through in the 80s and 90s. Now again, we're talking national trends, right? Again, in your local neighborhood, it may be a green light happening. I don't know. I'm just saying. For you to say that our country's becoming a cesspool means you not reading the data. According to the Conversation, it's like independent journalists. This author, her name is Katerina G. Roman. She's a professor of criminal justice at Temple University. And as a side note at Temple University, my homie Timothy, he's teaching a class on Kendrick Lamar and his lyrics and hip hop and justice. I actually spoke at his class a couple times, so that was pretty dope to hear what he's doing. But now check this out. According to her writing, it says that the Pennsylvania spends roughly $200,000 a year for each juvenile it incarcerates. According to the 2021 report from a bipartisan Pennsylvania juvenile justice track force, that's 50 times the cost to deliver evidence based family therapy that would prevent kids from going into the justice system in the first place. I' ma tell you before I even read the rest of this because I lived it. We just be bored. It ain't nothing to do. There are no opportunities. When the heat stopped working, then my heat start working. In Philadelphia, juvenile incarceration involves the confinement in city ran Philadelphia juvenile services and other residential placements facilities. Young people leave these facilities with lower chances of graduating high school, frayed mental health, and a higher likelihood of rearrest or being shot. Can I again please speak from my own experience? When you go into these juveniles cases, you have to pick a location of people that you would be your protection. Even if you don't run with them, even if you don't know them niggas outside of here, when y' all get outside, y' all may never talk again. But in here, even if you went in there over something stupid like shoplifting some damn spray paint, whatever the case may Be you now gotta run with the people that got your same skin tone and are from your part of town. You have to. Kids don't go in being members of gangs. You have to join one to stay alive. Now check this out. When you get out, part of the terms of your probation is you can't be around certain criminal festivities or activities or people with criminal records. Where you gonna go? If I just happen to live on 60th street next to my uncle, I just live here. You mess around, go visit your granny house and then gotta report to yo po you've been fraternized with known gang members, you probably going back. This shit don't work, y'. All. But what does? Now again, back to this article. Drawing from about 35 years of work in Philadelphia and other cities to understand what makes neighborhoods safer. I believe the surest returns home from prevention strategies aimed at young people who are not yet immersed in robbery shootings and gun activities. Right. So they give some examples of the things that they've done. First of it is a school based case management in Barthram High, now in Southwest Philly. John Barthram High Schools has a youth violence reduction initiative that launched in 2023. It was designed by former school safety chief in Philadelphia, now Philadelphia Police Commissioner Kevin Bethel, school safety officer, programs manager Ken Rosa, and criminal justice researcher Brandy Blasco and this person that wrote the article. Students who have been involved in fights or show other risk factors of violence and street gang involvements are referred to this program. The initiative's core idea is simple. Earn students trust through consistent, credible mentorship and step in when needed. Stepping in means teaching conflict resolution skills, running engaging workshops, buying a meal, intervening when a fight is brewing or a student is on the verge of being expelled. Each week, a team of administrators, counselors, school safety officers and community outreach workers, most of whom are based in the school, review the participants progress tracks, follow through referrals and coordinate communication with family, school and staff. This is a tightly managed, relationship driven safety net that gives students quicker access to help make school climates calmer and safer. This seems so obvious. You just need somebody you trust. Listen, one of the things even in my own house, my own life, was I knew my neighbors and my neighbors knew me. And if they called me outside standing with the wrong people, I knew they was going to tell my mom. Sometimes since they're teenagers, they don't have conflict resolution skills. All they know is to pop off. You ever been hangry? You don't think kids be hangry? Your teacher in there asking you about your algebra homework, your stomach rumbling. I ain't got shit to say to her because I'm hungry. And sometimes it's just a meal. Sometimes it's just knowing somebody cares. Sometimes it's just. You feel like. I know. I've experienced this, too. I feel like it's not even. There ain't even no reason to explain my position to you because you not gonna believe me or you just gonna call the police. I taught a kid, I've said this story so many times, who used to show up late in class when I used to teach. He used to show up late in class maybe three to four times a week. Always had his homework in his hand. You tardied that many times, we supposed to call the truancy officer. Ain't no way in the world I'm calling a truancy officer because that mean they mama gonna have to pay a $2,500 fee, number one. And number two. Now he got a record. All I did, guys, I just asked him, why are you late every day? He say, because he trusts me. My daddy be drinking too much at night so he can't get up and take us to school. So I take my brother to school first and then come here, and this is just the time I get here. I never marked him tardy since. All you gotta do is ask, right? Which leads me to the second thing. The power of credible, caring adults. It's real simple. You got people that care. You got food programs. All right, let me nerd it up again. Now, according to the Youth Justice Services, relationships, rehabilitation and the reality of young people involved a meta synthesis of qualitative literature. This is a scholarly literature, reviewed results that says that just having an adult who, you know, cares, just having one that care, changes significantly the chances of a student getting into a life of crime. But just knowing somebody care. I'm going to link in again into these show notes all of the data, all the stuff I've been looking at, so you can check it out yourself. I know it seems like a gross oversimplification, by the way that I'm just saying it right now. Usually, you know what I'm saying? If we was doing the it can happen here thing, I got to be able to read this stuff out to you, but I can read a part of it. It says that the themes that broke out after interviewing 150 kids is that young people reported first being pessimistic about entering these services and their past experiences impacted their ability to trust and were initially cautious of professionals. But Watch this. These were the themes and sub themes. They felt valued and finding worth within their system. The reciprocal nature of understanding and respect. These kids felt respected. The importance of having one good person creating a secure base for exploration and development and then showing a genuine care by going above and beyond. So basically, just be kind and it helps a student succeed. Ain't that crazy? But at the end of the day, homicides in Philadelphia are at the lowest level they've been in 25 years. How? It's long time and it takes effort. But next I want to talk about woo the city of Baltimore. Boy, this new mayor up there cooking. All right, next. All right, we bike. Now. Baltimore, I don't know if you know this, which I love about it, and of course you probably don't know about it because a black man did this. Baltimore's homicide rate has fallen 40%. Now, Baltimore, you understand this is where the wire took place. Don't get me wrong about Baltimore. Baltimore active murder capital of the doggone. Listen. Baltimore was active. Active. Now, according to the Guardian, violent crime in America's big cities has been receding since the pandemic for about two years. But even in comparisons, Baltimore improvement is breathtaking. Fewer people have been killed in the city over the last seven months than any other particular period for 50 years. Here's the funny part. Mississippi talking about sending a National Guard up to DC to help with the crime in DC. Meanwhile, Jackson, Mississippi got a higher murder rate than DC right now. Y' all people is weird. It's never been about crime. Now back to Guardian. As of 15 August, the running 365 day total for murders in Baltimore stood at 165 dead. Assuming the city remains at this pace, the murder rate will finish below 30 per 10,000 residents for the first time since 1986. If it remains on pace since the 1st of January, it would have finished 2025 at 143 murders, a rate of about 25 per 100,000. The last seen in Baltimore since 1978. Now check this out. Y' all may not remember this, but y' all remember Freddie Gray, the boy that got killed in the back of the police holding tank. See, that's what happens when you just bring cops into a place. It ain't about the crime, though. Back to The Guardian. Since 2015, there has been here in Baltimore this acknowledgment that the equity needs to be the priority. Right? Mayor Brown said the riots were as much about the conditions of poverty as it was about Gray's death. I Hope you're hearing that people losing their homes and foreclosures to water bills, for example, as they were about police brutality. But the heavy handed response of the cops to the protest failed to hold the police accountable for misconduct, right? Eviscerating the relationship between the Baltimore police and the public. Baltimore State Attorney Marion Moseley laid murder charges on the officers involved. And Baltimore's police union closed ranks in response. Eviscerating the relationship between the police and politicians and serious scandals at the City hall and the State's Attorney office. And the failure of Mosley's charges to result in convictions. Violence skyrocketed, but here come this young brother, Brandon Scott. Young black man, right? He's a former City council member, right? He's been a long observer of the violence, you know what I'm saying? And before he became the mayor in 2020, then he implemented what he's calling a comprehensive three pillar approach, right? The first pillar is called public health approach to violence, Right. The second pillar is community engagement and interagency coordination, right? The third pillar is evaluation and accountability, right? So like I said in the beginning, it starts with the community. All right? So check this out again from the Guardian. Against Baltimore's police budget topping a half a billion dollars, the largest police budget per capita of any large city in the usa. The political establishment gave its new millennial mayor room to experiment with $50 million of Washington's money. So they took that budget that was a half a billion, gave him 50 million, right? And since trust was like so low, the first step was to get everybody aboard. So he took that money, the cops, the hospitals, the jails, the school, the social services, the State Department, the feds. And he appointed this dude named Richard Worley o who was the city police commissioner in June 2023. Worsley was a lifelong Baltimore officer, picked in part to bring the rank and file in line with Scott's anti violence program. Scott emphasizes partnerships as an important part of the process. Now, he took other federal grants and he gave the money to the people that actually do the services. He ain't just keeping for them. Now here's the thing, cuts my mouth to say it, but if you are gonna stop violence in the situation that we live in, the cops gotta be involved. Because most of the time the cops are the problem. It's always punishment and prison with them. They only come with a stick to when something already happened. So you got to get them on the table and you got to get them at the table with somebody that's going to Be willing to be held accountable. And remember, that's pillar three now. Not now. Far be it for me because I don't live in Baltimore, would I ever shill for no mayor like this? I'm just telling you what the data says. And I got family in Baltimore. Now. What Scott said is again, we focus on the individuals and groups that are most likely to be the victim or perpetuator of violence. We go to them. Listen, they knock on doors. There's a social worker that comes to the door with a letter from the mayor that says, yo, you trying to be a part of this. And they're only targeting kids or families that they know got low poverty rates and high chances of crime. You looking for the people who are most likely going to fall a victim to perpetuating it or receiving it. Because remember how we started this whole thing before you think we don't care about crime. We the ones that it's happening too. So he says, quote Curtis Palomero, who runs the youth violence prevention nonprofit RACA in Baltimore. It says we're talking about young people with the elevated risk. We're not talking about the young person that says F you to his teacher or tells his mom and dad or grandpa he don't want to do xyz. We're talking about kids who have literally probably have two tracks, jail and death. He knocks on the door while a cop is carrying the mayor's letter, and as often as not, he has to knock on a dozen doors before he gets a chance. Why? Because niggas don't trust the cops, right? Why would they? But since there's no single thing that is preventative, trust must be built, right? Moving on. In this article, there are two types of people that are most vulnerable. Nas says the people in their early 20s who are feuding over trivial matters. Someone looked at me wrong. Somebody bumped into somebody, right? Or other people who are in the drug game more around. The violence that has to do with other criminal enterprises are so much more calculated. Critically, it's not every young person with Instagram beef and not every stand down neighborhood street dealer that rises to their attention. The risk factors creates a reasonable, articulatable, legally defensible basis for contact. Which means you're not being hunted by the cops. Do you understand the peace I would have felt had I known that since I wasn't involved in none of this shit, they may not be coming up to me? You've already calmed my nervous system down, right? There's another story about a young man who was recovering After a gunshot. And then this life coach, nigga from a youth advocate program approached him. And Jalen said, this is. This man said he just had been in the wrong part of West Baltimore at the wrong time. Now, most of us who grew up like this, that's true. He wasn't especially receptive to this first life coach at all. He said, I thought there was a catch. I thought I'd have to pay them back in the future. Because when the police do it to you, that's exactly what it is. You gotta pay them back later. But this person is funded by the city to just be a life coach. I ain't asking you to snitch on nobody. I ain't asking you to make yourself, put yourself in danger outside. It's somebody who understands what it's like to live out here. This life coach says it's about follow up. Today they might say, get the fuck out of here. Tomorrow they might be wanting some services. It might be something tragic that happens and they need change. Like I said, my mother's not smiling no more. I need a way to pay my mama's light bill. Can you help me with that? Here's what's crazy. Yes, I can help you with that. We have services. Why? Because I'm talking to the other departments, right? On the law side, here's the prevention. They dismissed 34% of nonviolent charges. I was a non violent offender. It was graffiti. Like what? Just make me pay the fine. Like it's fine. Like I'll pay the fine. I don't care. Right? You have like a nickel bag of weed in your pocket. You looking at five years. The shit is not working. That's over policing. But if the district attorney look at you and say, nigga, some weed. Man, get the fuck out of here. Go, go take care of your mama. Matter of fact, I want you to talk to this brother over here. He gonna help get your plumber's license. Also, there's job placement, right? There's all that and then finally evaluation. Listen, you got a caring adult. You got services available to you. And you know if somebody in this program, if any of these law enforcement, these city people act the fuck up, there are consequences. That is pillar three. I'mma link all this stuff to you. There's a four year evaluation. And you will get fucking fired. If I know that if you treat me right, something going to happen to you, I might think a little different. Listen, the heat stopped working. So my heat start working. But if my stomach is full and the bills are paid and there's after school programs to go to. And I know these old people around me aren't going to trust me when I tell them stuff. When I'm dealing with situations that may or may not be out of my control, when I got big homies pressing me to do this and there's somebody I could trust that I could talk to that's not gonna turn me into a snitch. Because you ain't telling the cops just to get them to give me information about a crime that happened over there. That's not what's happening right now. You are trying to prevent the violence. You not trying to catch a criminal. You trying to prevent criminality. And it's at a 50 year low. But sure, go ahead and send the National Guard. Now listen, obviously this ain't the system I want, but it's the system we got. This is not ideal. You would never see me shield for no police department or mayor, but cities like Philly and Baltimore are proven, nigga. If you just care and you spend money on trusted sources and provide resources, the crime, it drops itself. Seems so simple. But you know, what do we know? We're just black people. And all this tells me what we already knew. It was never about crime ever. Because there's research that shows what actually works in reducing crime. What this about? You just think we're you and you're a white supremacist. You just want a white world and you think it's cool to have military in our streets. Don't get me wrong, you didn't invent that. You was in Trump. You know how I know you ain't invent that? Because there's an amendment in the Constitution that says that we don't want to live in a world where the military is on every corner. But apparently you do. It's clearly not about crying.
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- [44:57]
Michael Tura
A foot washed up, a shoe with.
- [45:00]
Robert Evans
Some bones in it.
- [45:01]
Michael Tura
They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.
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Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
These are the coldest of cold cases.
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Garrison Davis
But everything is about to change.
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Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Every case that is a cold case.
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Robert Evans
That has DNA right now in a.
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Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking.
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Garrison Davis
The code on DNA using new scientific tools.
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Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.
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Cooper Quinton
He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.
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Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors and you'll meet the.
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Garrison Davis
Team behind the scenes at othram, the.
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Houston lab that takes on the most.
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Garrison Davis
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- [45:57]
Michael Tura
What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a.
- [46:13]
Cooper Quinton
New York state number, and we own you.
- [46:15]
Michael Tura
Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had 1:1 chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and.
- [46:46]
Cooper Quinton
We didn't know what to expect in the morning.
- [46:48]
Robert Evans
Nobody tells you anything.
- [46:49]
Michael Tura
Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [46:58]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Hola, it's honey German and my podcast, Gracias, Come Again is back. This season we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition?
- [47:11]
Garrison Davis
No, I didn't audition.
- [47:12]
Robert Evans
I haven't auditioned like over 25 years.
- [47:14]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Oh, wow. That's a real G talk right there.
- [47:17]
Robert Evans
Oh, yeah.
- [47:18]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a star. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of cheeseme, a lot of laughs and those amazing viras you've come to expect. And of course we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity struggles and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewashed because you have to do the code switching.
- [47:48]
Michael Tura
I won't say whitewashed cuz at the.
- [47:50]
Robert Evans
End of the day you know I'm me. Yeah, but the whole pretending and co, you know, takes a toll on you.
- [47:55]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Listen to the New Season of Grass has come again as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
- [48:09]
Mia Wong
Welcome to A App here, a podcast about a world on fire and how to put it out. I'm your host Mia Wong the world is fought. It's the one thing everyone agrees on in the vacuum of a defeated Democratic Party and a hideously unpopular fascist takeover that is nevertheless on the march. Ideologies vie for the mantle of resistance to the fascist purge. Zoran Mamdani's victory in New York represents a resurgence social democracy in the streets. Everyone from liberals to communists to anarchists are fighting against ICE and the National Guard occupations. To get our bearings in the swirling vortex of ideology, let us check in slightly further to the right, but still firmly in the grounds of liberalism, on a new movement called Abundance. What is abundance? Thrust into prominence by a book in March 2025 simply called Abundance by liberal stalwart Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson, who is something that was well known. It features people like Matthew and Glacius. They argue that growth is good. They argue we should make more things. They argue we should have bold visions of the future with, to quote Malcolm Harris's description in the Baffler, desalinated ocean water flowing from the taps, skyscraper farms growing our food indoors, and star pills manufactured in space, clean air and super fast planes. Think big, think fast. Solve problems by building more. They even have a new magazine run off of substack called the Argument, which is supposed to be about bringing these new ideas to the left. It includes social Democratic stalwart Matt Brunank. Isn't that nice? Semaphore, in their reporting on the launch of the Argument, wrote many of the arguments. Writers have supported, or in Thompson's case, authored the Ideas of Abundance, a recent book advocating for reforms to improve government efficiency, lower the cost of housing, and improve public transportation, among other Initiatives. And those sound like good things, don't they? Let's take a look at who's funding the argument. It's funded in part by Emergent Ventures, which was created by the Koch brothers Mercantis center with seed money from Peter Thiel. Wait, what? They have a conference every year? They had one in 2024. The 2025 conference was last week.
- [50:45]
Michael Tura
Who was speaking?
- [50:47]
Mia Wong
The Opponents Conference 2025. Speakers include Charles Lehman from the right wing Manhattan Institute, an organization founded by Ronald Reagan's director of the CIA. Well, let's hear him out. Let's see what he thinks. Lehman advocates what he calls deportation abundance, which is his plan to make a more efficient deportation machine that could actually deport every undocumented person in the U.S. wait, what? This conference is also sponsored by the Koch family's organization, Stand Together. It includes speakers from the American Enterprise Institute. One of the co sponsors of the event did another conference with special guest Kevin Roberts, the guy who wrote Project 2025. Isn't this supposed to be a liberal movement?
- [51:41]
Michael Tura
Oh no. What's going on here?
- [51:44]
Mia Wong
Could abundance really be funded by all these right wing billionaires and tech fascists?
- [51:49]
Michael Tura
Oh no.
- [51:51]
Mia Wong
As you may have guessed from the title, most of today's episode is going to be about what the people behind abundance actually want. And it's not what you or I want. It is what Peter Thiel wants, what Marc Andreessen wants, what J.D. vance wants. In a sense, it is what Donald Trump wants. Because abundance as an ideology is an attempt by the tech oligarchs to take over the left the same way they took over the right. And that makes the ideology extremely dangerous. As we are going to unveil, this project is directly tied to many of the worst people in this country right now. It is tied to Peter Thiel. It is funded by Peter Thiel. It is funded by Marc Andreessen, who is another effectively Thielite who believes in most of the same, if not all of the same things that Thiel does. These ideas are normally unacceptable on the liberal left. But because abundance is wrapped in the ideology of liberalism, because it wears the faces of liberal stalwarts like Ezra Klein, it can be smuggled in in a way that leaves the left and liberalism as a whole susceptible to broad ideological capture by the very same tech fascists we are all trying to oppose. Before we fully get into what the funders of abundance actually wants, let's talk a little bit about what the ideology of abundance is. The very, very basic ideology of abundance is that we need More things we need to build more, and that government regulations are standing in the way of building things. Now, if this sounds suspiciously Reaganite to you, that's because in a sense it is, as Racline describes this as, the progressive supply side economics. Now, supply side economics famously is Reagan's thing. You will note that basically everyone across the entire political spectrum, at least sort of when pressed, will agree that supply side economics simply does not work. But let's, let's hear them out. I think another way to understand what abundance is and why it works the way that it does is to look at it in the context not of American political ideology and debates, but, but of Chinese political debates. Now, Chinese political debates have for much of the last decade and really a decade and a half, taken the form of arguments about either increasing the size of the pie or splitting the pie more evenly. On the left, you have a case for redistribution, right? For higher taxation, for higher welfare benefits, for giving people things from the states and redistributing it from rich people to the poor. On the right you have growing the pie, which argues that instead of redistributing wealth, we should simply grow more wealth and that wealth will trickle down to everyone else. Wait, this is just Reaganism again, it's all Reaganism. This is the very frustrating thing about abundance is that when you actually go past the language they're using and you look at what they think will happen, it's just trickle down economics. Again, it's just trickle down economics. And abundance is on the right wing side of it now. You know, there are definitely arguments for places where we do in fact need to build more things, right? And this argument has become particularly prominent with the rise of yimbyism. And like, yeah, I don't know, building more houses is good. I mean, it was, it was, it was literally a demand of the Hungarian revolution, right? Like, yeah, we need more of it. But comma, we need to be very, very careful here because the way that abundance structures its arguments in the ways that, for example, a really, really vulgar version of yimbyism has been deployed by these people in order to just sort of wholesale oppose government regulations. And we're not just talking about things here like eliminating zoning requirements, right? We are talking about, as we'll get into later, the people behind this movement want to create their own city states and special economic zones where no government regulations apply. But the fundamental argument here is that lifting government restrictions on production will, you know, increase the size of the markets. And because price is just supply and demand, prices will fall because there's more supply. None of this is how markets actually work. One of the crucial insights of anthropology is that markets are not simply neutral objective forces that function according to precise mathematical laws. They are socially constructed. Even in neoclassical economics, by their own logic, price is not just supply and demand. That's something that's only true in perfectly competitive markets. And perfectly competitive markets do not exist. They probably cannot exist, but they do not exist in the real world. And they do not represent something like the housing market in the real world. Markets are defined by power. Neoclassical economists attempt to explain the role of power in markets through monopoly. Right? You can look at monopoly and monopsony. There are a bunch of very different things that they think are sort of deviations of this perfect competitive market where people band together to build power and thus are able to distort what the perfect free market should be doing. And this is a feature of basically every market, every that actually exists, right? There aren't perfectly competitive markets. They all have power in them and they all have degrees of monopoly, to use a sort of Marxian term, in them as well. Now, do you know what else has a degree of monopoly? That's right. It is the products and services that support this podcast. So what does this actually have to do with abundance? Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I explained rent on this show, and this is specifically here. Rent in the context of what you pay to your landlords. I promise this will circle back to. This will circle back to sort of abundance yimbyism in a second. I attempted to explain rent by drawing on the work of the legendary Venezuelan anthropologist Fernando Coronel to argue that the rent that we pay to our landlords functions similarly to oil rent, where price is not set by supply and demand, but instead by the social power of oil producers. Now, people got very, very mad at me for this, but the longue of history has vindicated me in the real world. It turns out I was right. The most powerful example of this in the housing market is the case of RealPage, a service that allowed landlords to get recommendations on their pricing based on information from all the landlords who submitted their data, thus creating an algorithmic machine for price fixing. This got bad enough that even the Biden Justice Department got involved. Here's from the Department of justice's lawsuit against RealPage. Quote RealPage acknowledged that its software is aimed at maximizing prices for landlords, referring to its products as, quote, driving every possible opportunity to increase price, avoiding the race to the bottom in down markets. And a rising tide raises all ships. A RealPage executive observed that its products help landlords avoid competing on the merits, noting, quote, there is a greater good in everybody succeeding versus essentially trying to compete against one another in a way that actually keeps the entire industry down. A RealPage executive explains to a landlord that using competitor data can help identify situations where a landlord may have a $50 increase instead of $10 increase for the day. Another landlord commented about RealPage's product, I always like this product because your algorithms use proprietary data from other subscribers who suggest rents and terms. That's classical price fixing. Now I was derided for arguing that landlords would band together using their social power to prevent rents from falling even with units sitting empty. And it turns out I was right the whole time they were doing exactly that. It turns out in the actual real world of the market, all of these companies on all of these landlords had found a way to band together in order to use their social power and use the information in their possession to fix the price of rent. Here is from Reuters Drawing from yet another lawsuit, this time from the attorney general of D.C. a monthly report from W.C. smith in 2022 showed the company had increased revenues per unit by 4.6 to 4.7% despite decreased occupancy levels, according to the lawsuit. So what is that saying? That is saying that the actual number of people in these apartments is decreasing. The number of apartments staying open that have no one in them is increasing, but the price is not going down. Even though there's more supply, the price is still going up. Why is the price still going up?
- [61:11]
Garrison Davis
Well, well, well.
- [61:13]
Mia Wong
The Justice Department calls this price fixing, large scale collusion to disrupt the functioning of the perfectly normal competitive market. The anthropologist Fernando Coronel, as I argued before, calls it absolute rent, rent extracted by virtue of the social power of the landowner. As I wrote in that episode, absolute rent does not obey the law of supply and demand. It is the product of social power, of the power of land ownership itself and the organization of the landowning class and their backing by the state and its militaries and police. And this causes economists attempting to use supply and demand to explain rent to get very, very important events very wrong. Morris Edelman, the famous soil economist, predicted in 1972 that the price of oil was going to collapse based on oversupply and competition. Instead, it increased 400% between 1973 and 1974 because oil producers banded together to exercise their power and their organization, known as opec, became a genuine world power. As Coronel put it the sharp increase of 1973 and 1974 in oil prices did not result from a world shortage of oil. It was rather the outcome of a long historical process by which OPEC nations, and acting as landowners, developed a means to extract a rent on the basis of their ownership of the oil fields, an absolute rent in addition to the differential rents they had collected in the past. In 1973, a set of converging political and economic conditions helped establish their collective ability to restrict the world's supply of oil. With this power, OPEC felt entitled to set the market price of oil, thus freeing the level of rent from the previous constraints of market price. Now, rent itself, absolute and differential, would determine the market price of oil. What does that sound like? Oh, it sounds like RealPage's price fixing algorithm. Why does it sound like RealPage's price fixing algorithm? It's because in the real world, markets are not neutral institutions that operate according to neutral laws. They're institutions created and enforced by the state. Landlords can jack up your rent because they wield collective power together and have the ability to use the state to drag you out of your home at gunpoint. Abundance is to a large extent an attempt to harness widespread discontent over the price of goods, the price of rent, the price of food, and argue that you can simply produce more and this will make all of the prices go down. But as we've seen here, as long as the social power is held by the rent extractors, they can simply set their own price. None of this is addressed in abundance, and there's a simple reason for that. The people funding the abundance agenda are the very same people profiting from their social power. So let's talk about the money. I'm going to be quoting here from a report from Prospect, which is very good. The Institute for Progress, which co hosted Abundance 2024 and is listed as a key institutional partner by the Inclusive Abundance Initiative, has a bevy of corporate ties. In 2022, IFP received $110,000 from FAI and has FAI s executive director on its board. Now FAI is the foundation for American Innovation. I'm going to read this is also an Abundance co host which is very funny. I am going to read a quote from Kate Willett who has also done some excellent reporting on this and she describes how the FAI hosted another conference in 2024 called Reboot Quote the quote Surprise guest of the conference was Kevin Roberts, President of the Heritage foundation and Chief Architect of 2025. Now back to the Institute for Progress part of what's going on here, right, is that this is, this is an incredible, you know, and what I, what I'm trying to emphasize by how confusing this whole thing is is that abundance is composed of a series of think tanks and weird institutes that are all tied into a bunch of tech money. Right? Keeping the acronym straight is very difficult. You do not need to hold all of them in your head. The other thing that you need to understand about this, right, is if you look at who is co hosting these conferences and who is behind these books and who is behind these media outlets, a very, very clear picture starts to emerge. I'm going, I'm going to go back to quoting from Prospect. One of the funders of the Institute for Progress was Emergent Ventures, which is a product of the Koch back Mercantis Institute at George Mason University. Emergent itself was launched by a grant from Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel is a right wing billionaire with a vast influence network at the intersection of techno futurism and anti democratic thought who has called technology an alternative to democratic politics. Small D democratic, by the way, he means the concept of democracy to quote, unilaterally change the world. Vice President Elect JD Vance is a known scion of Peter Thiel. Let's look at the Chamber of Progress, another one of the groups that is heavily involved in abundance. Chamber of Progress, which self identifies its work as part of a growing abundance policy movement, is a trade group started with Google seed money by Google alum Adam Kovakovich. Kovakovich proudly touts his college activism, leading an effort to cross a United Farm Workers picket line. The Chamber of Progress's partners, reed funders include A16Z Circle, Coinbase, Google, Kraken, Ripple, Waymo, Andreessen, Horowitz or A16Z is a venture capital firm heavily invested in AI and crypto. Co founder Mark Andreessen believes the technology is a solution to every problem. He's also on Meta's board. He is also a theolite tech fascist. This is it in some sense, a very, very interesting collusion of forces, right? We have the Koch brothers who are, you know, sort of the ancient libertarian right side of Republican dark money. They are, you know, the people who have traditionally funded right wing movements in the past. They are the Tea Party people. They are, you know, they are sort of the boogeyman under the bed for anyone who has wanted to make the world a better place for a very, very long time. And they and their organizations are working with the emergent tech fascist rights. You know, people like, people like Marc Andreessen people with Peter Thiel. And these are the organizations that have gotten in bed together in order to do this. Now these people have a bunch of absolutely hideous beliefs. We're not even going to get in to the eugenics here. But like these, the people funding this thing are huge eugenicists. We literally do not have time to do the all of the eugenic shit associated with this. Because if I were to actually do the eugenics, I mean, we talked about some of like Matti and Glacius's bullshit on this podcast earlier. But like, if I actually went through and did this, this episode would be like 12 hours long. I am going to cover this sort of network state, pure theolite eugenics circle at some point later. That is a forthcoming episode. But yeah, for now, here are these ads which hopefully are not eugenics.
- [68:17]
Michael Tura
Woo.
- [68:29]
Mia Wong
So let's get back to who I think are really the two primary villains of this story, and that is Peter Thiel and Mark Andreessen, who are two of the most dangerous people in the entire world. Thiel and Andresen are fascists who believe the state should be a corporation run by the tech elite. They do not believe in democracy. And particularly Thiel has said that democracy is the enemy of freedom. Right? When these people talk about running the state like a business, they mean that there should be an unaccountable fucking philosopher CEO king and that there shouldn't be democracy. A common feature of this and you know, the physical manifestation of this thing is an idea called the network state. And a very common theme of the founders of Abundance is their support for the network state, both as a concept and in terms of building them. So what is the network state? The network state is to a large extent the thing I've just been describing, right? The version of it that they pitch is that these are like opportunity zones, right? They're these like tech cities, you know, that will eventually become like real states that are, that are based off of special economic zones where, you know, special economic zones where like the normal regulations of the state do not apply. So you can, you know, do whatever you want, right? You can, you can, we can build prosperity by, by having no government regulations and run everything through corporations. These network states would be again, actual straight up corporations that own and control territory and run it as the state. These states are already coming into existence. Maybe the most important is Prospera, a corporate city for profit in Honduras that is run by a corporation. Again in a special economic zone where the state does not apply, it does not have a mayor. It has someone appointed by the corporation who runs the city. This is happening all over the world, particularly in developing countries, where it is being pushed by all of these just absolutely demonic tech ghouls. And they're also being started, and attempts are being started to run them in the United States. I'm going to quote here from Shane Lee's venture capital blog, Venture Capital Status, which is a very, very good resource on the Network State, which we'll be covering more fully later because we don't have time to do much more than a brief introduction to their ideas. Here in Solero County, California, a cartel of venture capitalists associated with Andreessen Horowitz, which is again Marc Andreessen's firm, bought up over 65,000 acres of rich, fertile farmland. And using secretive and threatening methodologies, including suing local farmers, they plan to build a city with weapons developments and manufacturing, aerospace and robotics companies, shipbuilding, homes and schools. This network state is called California Forever. Also in California, there has been a discussion by Network State operatives of taking over Presidio in San Francisco. And there is a network State planned in Samona County. Its founder is a former Pomona venture capitalist. These are the same people funding abundance. Here's from Kate Willett, again one of the California Forever billionaires. California Forever is again the name of the network state they want to set up by buying a bunch of land in Solano County. One of the California Forever billionaires, Patrick Collison, the CEO of Stripe, looms large in abundance worlds. Along with open philanthropy, he donated to fund a $120 million abundance grant tied to Ezra Klein's book release. Colson is a key backer and inspiration for the Institute for Progress, a think tank which works closely with others in the abundance network, including the Abundance 2024 conference. The goal of the Network State movement is to accelerate the destruction of the United States and create these corporate network states in their wake. They want the world to be composed of these networks of venture capital tech corporations run and ruled by them, by the tech elite for profit. These are the people that are funding all of these fucking movements. These are the people funding the argument. These are the people funding the Abundance Conference. These are the people that people like Ezra Klein have been brought in to run cover for. These are Trump people. They are the forces behind J.D. vance. They want to inflict their vision of tech fascism on the world. But they are hideously popular in power. In order to achieve their agenda, they cannot simply rely on their incredible hegemony on the right. They need you. They need your buy in. They need the support of good and kindhearted liberals who they can radicalize into Trumpian tech fascists. This is their opening gambit and they've played it well. But there is still time for them to fail. There is still time for us to build a future built by us and for us, by and for each other, based on mutual aid and the benefit of all A world without death squads and ice. A world ruled not by corporations, but by us. The fight for that world begins here and now.
- [74:07]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
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- [75:06]
Michael Tura
What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on Earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a.
- [75:22]
Cooper Quinton
New York State number and we own you.
- [75:24]
Michael Tura
Shock Incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, discipline, physical training, hard labor and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and.
- [75:55]
Cooper Quinton
We didn't know what to expect in the morning.
- [75:57]
Robert Evans
Nobody tells you anything.
- [75:58]
Michael Tura
Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up, a shoe with.
- [76:08]
Robert Evans
Some bones in it.
- [76:09]
Michael Tura
They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.
- [76:16]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
These are the coldest of cold cases.
- [76:19]
Garrison Davis
But everything is about to change.
- [76:22]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Every case that is a cold case.
- [76:24]
Robert Evans
That has DNA right now in a.
- [76:25]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking.
- [76:30]
Garrison Davis
The code on DNA using new scientific tools.
- [76:34]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.
- [76:38]
Cooper Quinton
He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [76:45]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at othram, the Houston lab that takes on the most.
- [76:53]
Garrison Davis
Hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable.
- [76:59]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's honey German. And my podcast, Gracias, Come Again is back. This season we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition.
- [77:19]
Garrison Davis
No, I didn't audition.
- [77:20]
Robert Evans
I haven't auditioned like over 25 years.
- [77:23]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Oh, wow. That's a real G talk right there.
- [77:25]
Robert Evans
Oh, yeah.
- [77:26]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a star. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of cheeseme, a lot of laughs and those amazing vivas you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics that dealing with identity struggles and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewashed because you have to do the code switching.
- [77:57]
Michael Tura
I won't say whitewashed because at the.
- [77:58]
Robert Evans
End of the day, you know, I'm me.
- [77:59]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Yeah.
- [78:00]
Robert Evans
But the whole pretending and co, you know, it takes a toll on you.
- [78:03]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Listen to the new season of Grass has come again as part of Michael Tura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
- [78:17]
Garrison Davis
Welcome to it could Happen Here, a show about things falling apart. One such thing frequently falling apart is any notion of privacy or digital privacy ever encroaching. Surveillance is one of the biggest global issues affecting free expression and a free press, both directly through surveillance technology, but also by chilling speech. I'm Garrison Davis and this past week, news has swept the Internet that ICE is using software from an Israeli company called Paragon, which allows ICE or DHS to secretly hack into any smartphone, break encryption, access messages, track real time location, and turn your iPhone or Android into a walking listening device. All of which sounds very scary and some of which is true, though some of these claims are exaggerated or even likely false based on what we can currently infer from published research due to legitimate fears. We live in a world of surveillance paranoia, which can lead to surveillance myths. This is a core function of the Panopticon. People should take ICE's new enhanced smartphone surveillance capacity seriously, but to adequately do so requires an accurate understanding of the threat model, which we will get into later this episode with some help from the Electronic Frontier Foundation. But first, let's address the newsworthy aspect of this story. What has actually changed recently? DHS first contracted with the US branch of Paragon in September of 2024 for $2 million. But later that October, the contract was put on hold thanks to a Biden executive order restricting government use of foreign spyware. And ever since then the contract has been frozen pending a compliance review. But then on September 1, 2025, just last week, investigative journalist Jack Paulson reported that the stop work order affecting the Paragon contract had quietly been lifted, allowing ICE to follow through on the contract and start using Paragon's spyware technology, most likely including their flagship product, graphite. What is graphite? Great question, one that I felt underqualified to fully answer myself. So I spoke with an expert, Cooper Quinton of the digital rights group the Electronic Frontier Foundation. You'll hear from him throughout the episode.
- [80:54]
Cooper Quinton
My name is Cooper Quinton. I am a senior staff technologist at the Electronic Frontier foundation there. I do a lot of different things. Most specifically for the purposes of this talk, I do malware research on malware that targets activists, journalists and civil society. So graphite is a type of spyware that is able to read your messages from your phone the same way that you, or you know, maybe a cop could if they had physical access to your unlocked phone. Right? That is the main capability that it has. According to the reporting published by Citizen Lab. Its main job is to hook into WhatsApp and into other encrypted chat apps and just read the messages in those apps, like in the messages you've already sent and any future messages that you send. That's really it. That's the, that's the meat of graphite.
- [81:46]
Garrison Davis
Something that sets Paragon apart from their fellow Israeli competitors is that Paragon has marketed itself as the ethical choice for spyware. One of their early investors, an Israeli firm called Red Dot, wrote, quote Paragon builds best in class cyber intelligence software to empower democratic countries providing cutting edge capabilities that make the world safer, unquote on their US website, Paragon says that they are, quote, unquote, empowering ethical cyber defense and that they provide customers with, quote, ethically based tools, teams and insights to disrupt intractable threats, unquote. Though they use the term cyber defense on their US site, Paragon's startup page reads, quote, paragon is an offense focused cyber company using digital intelligence for smartphone and Internet surveillance solutions. The company applies strict moral restrictions on itself, limiting its extraction of information from targeted devices to conversations on chat apps. Paragon works solely with police forces and intelligence agencies that meet the standards of an enlightened democracy, which includes only 39 countries, unquote. One of Paragon's senior executives told Forbes in 2021 that they would only sell their technology to governments that, quote, unquote, abide by international norms and respect fundamental rights and freedoms and that, quote, authoritarian or non democratic regimes would never be customers. Unfortunately, Paragon was not pressed on what their definition of authoritarian regimes includes. In recent reporting, there's been a lot of misconceptions about the capabilities of Paragon's main product, graphite. The Guardian wrote, quote, by essentially taking control of the mobile phone, ICE can not only track an individual's whereabouts, read their messages, look at their photographs, but also open and read information held on. Encrypted applications like WhatsApp or Signal spyware like graphite can also be used as a listening device through manipulation of the phone's recorder, unquote. But research into graphite by the surveillance watchdog group Citizen Lab has not indicated that graphite has all these capabilities or tries to, quote unquote take control of the entire device. But other tech journalists have since parroted the Guardian's unfounded claims that graphite fully takes over a phone and can record audio through the microphone.
- [84:16]
Cooper Quinton
This is actually less full featured than other spyware we've seen in the past, like NSO Group's Pegasus spyware. Other types of spyware that I've seen tend to have a lot more capabilities, right? They have the capability of like turning on GPS location tracking, the capability to turn on a hot mic to do all these other things. And this seems, as far as, as far as Citizen Lab has reported, to not be present within the graphite malware. And I think this is because Paragon has presented themselves as kind of being the, quote, unquote, responsible malware manufacturer, right? And they're like, like trying to minimize the amount of data they collect. It doesn't mean they couldn't add this stuff in the future. But that's the, that's the gist of it, it's actually, you know, kind of a very stripped down malware. I don't want to minimize, like how impactful it would be for this malware to get all of your messages right. Like that could have a huge impact for people. But we don't need to make up capabilities that our adversary has, especially under fascism.
- [85:20]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [85:20]
Cooper Quinton
Like we can, we can just work with the capabilities that we know they have.
- [85:25]
Garrison Davis
A lot of reporting and discussion of graphite and Paragon frame it as an equivalent to NSO's spyware Pegasus, which has been banned in the United States for four years. Pegasus seeks to completely hijack the target device, more broadly similar to Guardian's claims about graphite. But by forcing this comparison, people might be inadvertently boosting Paragon's brand with free marketing by making their product out to be something that I'm sure Paragon would like to have people think it is, but doesn't actually equate their realistic threat model similar to how predictions of an evil super intelligent AI actually currently serve to boost the stock price of AI companies.
- [86:07]
Cooper Quinton
I think a lot of people are doing the work for these companies that are aligning themselves with fascism. Right. And I don't think it's a great trend actually. Right. Like people are assuming that, you know, Palantir is sort of watching everything.
- [86:25]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [86:25]
Cooper Quinton
And really Palantir is just like fancy visual graphing software essentially.
- [86:31]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [86:31]
Cooper Quinton
Like the, the danger of Palantir is combining these two government databases. Right. This malware, the graphite malware, Right. Like, yeah, it's, it's not good, but you know, it's not magical, right. It's not omniscient. It's not able to, you know, I don't know, go eat the fridge out of your food and, you know, beat up your dad or something like, you know.
- [86:50]
Garrison Davis
Well, now we're talking. Now. Now that's a good app.
- [86:54]
Cooper Quinton
If only. If only tech bros. Could solve such social problems.
- [86:58]
Garrison Davis
No, no, they would never. No.
- [87:00]
Cooper Quinton
But yeah, you know, it's not, it's not magical, Right. And we don't need to do their work for them, Right. We don't need to do their myth making for them. Right. A bigger threat to the majority of people in the US is getting your phone seized by the cops. Right?
- [87:16]
Garrison Davis
Totally.
- [87:16]
Cooper Quinton
There's nothing this malware can do, according to public reports, at least, that the cops can't do if they get a hold of your unlocked phone.
- [87:23]
Garrison Davis
Right. Having face ID or a four digit passcode is much more dangerous to your digital security.
- [87:30]
Robert Evans
Yes.
- [87:30]
Garrison Davis
As an average person, even as like an average person, like going to a protest.
- [87:34]
Cooper Quinton
Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. You know, celebrate, which is the machine that police plug your phone into to make a copy of all the data on it is much more dangerous to, to the average American. You know, the paragon is you're much more likely to encounter that.
- [87:50]
Garrison Davis
This is more of a niche gripe, but one that's still important. There's been claims that, quote, ICE can now hack any phone and break encryption, but Graphite doesn't actually quote, unquote, break encryption. It's not going after the encryption on Signal or WhatsApp. Instead, Paragon tries to circumvent end to end encryption by trying to gain access to content on a targeted device once it's been unencrypted by an application like WhatsApp for the user to read. Similar to how if you have push notifications on for an application like Signal, if the police sees your phone and push notifications display messages from Signal, that doesn't mean the police have quote, unquote, broken signals Encryption. Now, in order for Graphite to extract messages from your phone, it needs to get onto your phone in the first place. Graphite is just the implanted code that can read and extract your messages. First, it needs to get onto your phone via what's called an exploit, which is usually a message sent to a phone number or a WhatsApp account that attacks a vulnerability in your phone's code to gain permissions to load the graphite onto the messaging apps. Graphite and the exploit are two separate programs that work together, but exploits need to be frequently changed to keep up with software security updates, and that's expensive. You need different exploits. For Android and iOS, Paragon has been using zero click exploits, meaning the owner of the phone doesn't have to manually click a link or intentionally download a file for the exploit to try to gain permissions on the device. You don't have to click or do anything, you just have to receive the message and then the spyware gets to work, which is very scary. But this technology cannot be deployed en masse because of how expensive and specific it needs to be in order to work.
- [89:44]
Cooper Quinton
The other thing that I think is missing a lot from the conversation about Graphite in particular is that the malware is just the program that runs when it gets on your phone. And first, before they can install Graphite, they have to get onto your phone through some sort of exploit. If your phone is up to date and fully patched, this will have to be a zero day exploit, which means it's an exploit that has had zero days for Apple or Google or whoever to fix it because it is unknown to them and these exploits cost millions of dollars. Right now Paragon is not going to pay that millions of dollars for each person they're exploiting, but there a large per person cost to ICE for each person they're going to exploit because Paragon doesn't want to blow their zero day which cost them millions of dollars to either buy or develop themselves.
- [90:43]
Garrison Davis
Welcome back. I'd like to get into a little bit of Paragon's pack backstory and how they've grown as a company. Paragon was founded in 2019 by former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Ehud Schnorson, a former commander of the IDF's cyber warfare unit, basically Israel's equivalent of The NSA called Unit 8200. Three other Paragon Co founders are also ex Israeli intelligence. The startup got early financing from a Tel Aviv investment fund called Red Dot Capital, though Paragon also received backing from American venture capital. In 2021, Forbes reported that the Boston based Battery Ventures had invested between 5 to 10 million in Paragon. Bloomberg Capital has also supported the company. In 2022, Paragon launched a US subsidiary and started recruiting former US feds to help break into the American market. The New York Times reported that the DEA has used graphite as far back as 2022. Former CIA assistant Director John Finbar Fleming became the Executive chairman of Paragon US in January of 2024. According to his LinkedIn in December of 2024, Paragon was acquired by AE Industrial Partners for $900 million. AE Industrial Partners is a Florida based private equity fund with a specialized security portfolio. Once they bought Paragon, it merged with another AE asset, the cybersecurity company Red lattice. Back in 2021, Paragon had about 50 employees. Now it has over 500. In June of 2025 they were hiring 150 more. Just a week ago, Executive Chairman John Finbar Fleming shared a recruitment post that Red Lattice was hiring quote, emerging and offensive cyber engineers, unquote. Next, let's discuss the biggest case study of graphite being deployed that we know of. On January 31, 2025, Meta's encrypted messaging app WhatsApp sent a notification to 90 accounts that their smartphones were suspected of being targeted by spyware, which has since been traced to the Paragon product. Graphite people targeted were journalists, human rights activists and members of civil society across Europe and the Mediterranean, but primarily based out of Italy. This was a zero day and zero click exploit, meaning it both attacked a previously unknown vulnerability and required zero user interaction to infect the device. At first, the Italian government denied knowledge, but Paragon canceled two contracts with customers in Italy, and a parliamentary oversight committee later confirmed the Italian government was using Paragon technology for spyware attacks against sea migration activists. One thing that's interesting to me is that we talk about this technology as being very expensive, very individual. They have to individually target you. But then you see, you know, 90 people on WhatsApp, and you're like, that's, that's a lot of people. So can you talk about how this attack was like, structured and what we've learned from it?
- [93:58]
Cooper Quinton
For sure, 90 people is a lot of people for such a targeted attack. Although it's, you know, in terms of most malware, like most commercial malware, 90 people would be a very, very small attack.
- [94:11]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [94:12]
Cooper Quinton
Like it wouldn't be worth your time. So, you know, it depends on the scale of things. I don't know what the scale of Italian civil society is.
- [94:19]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [94:19]
Cooper Quinton
But 90 people is likely, I think a small fraction of the whole of Italian civil society.
- [94:25]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [94:25]
Cooper Quinton
But yeah, those. So those people that were targeted by Paragon, the ones that we know about, you know, one was a Italian anti fascist journalist, I think another, there were a couple of other journalists that were covering migration issues and, you know, just a sort of a large swath across Italian civil society. So the way they were targeted was on WhatsApp. They were added to a group and then they were sent a malicious PDF which they didn't even have to open, and they didn't have to approve being added to the group. But as soon as that malicious PDF was received by their WhatsApp app, by their WhatsApp client, the WhatsApp client processed the PDF and it contained code which exploited WhatsApp and allowed graphite to start running. So graphite doesn't actually install anything. To get a little bit technical, graphite only runs in memory of the phone.
- [95:20]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [95:20]
Cooper Quinton
It only runs in the, like, temporary ram, so to speak.
- [95:24]
Garrison Davis
Okay, right.
- [95:25]
Cooper Quinton
So rebooting the phone would have cleared out the graphite infection and they would have had to reinfect the person.
- [95:30]
Garrison Davis
Interesting, right?
- [95:31]
Cooper Quinton
In this case, yeah. It's possible that in the future Paragon will find a way to make graphite persistent, but it does make it more stealthy, it makes it harder to detect, it makes it harder to forensically analyze. For people like Citizen Lab and like eff, if it just runs in memory, sure. Right. So it Kind of makes sense that they would want to keep running it in memory, even though rebooting it would clear out the infection, because you can just reinfect the person.
- [95:59]
Garrison Davis
Even like, like developers like WhatsApp or like Apple might have a harder time like. Yeah, realizing that they've been attacked if it can get cleared out so quickly, I guess.
- [96:07]
Cooper Quinton
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And in this case, WhatsApp did realize they had been attacked. They quickly figured out the pattern and, you know, to their credit, warned everybody immediately. Often the only way I think people will find out they've been in, you know, infected by this spider is if WhatsApp or, you know, somebody else, maybe Apple warned you that's not great, but it is. But it is better than the alternative where they just don't warn you at all.
- [96:35]
Garrison Davis
Right after the targets were notified of the spyware attack, some, including journalists and migrant refugee activists in Italy, agreed to participate in a forensic analysis of graphite by Citizen Lab. They found that Paragon spyware had spread from WhatsApp to at least two other apps on the device. In April of 2025, we got forensic confirmation of graphite spyware on iPhone with a zero click exploit attacking imessage. Citizen Lab was able to analyze the devices of a prominent European journalist who requested to remain anonymous, and an Italian journalist linked to the previous cluster of attacks in Italy. IPhone is slightly harder to target than your average Android, but certainly not impervious to this sort of attack, as we've seen from these examples in Europe to date. Citizen Lab has also identified suspected Paragon deployments in Australia, Canada, Cyprus, Denmark, Israel and Singapore. Though the encrypted messaging app Signal is not mentioned in the Citizen Lab reporting, their analysis did find that graphite had the capability of going after several different messaging apps, and it's probably safe to assume that Signal would be one of the apps that Paragon would want to extract messages from. We don't have much information about this spyware targeting signal, possibly because Signal does not have as large of an international user base compared to other apps like WhatsApp, iMessage or Telegram, despite Signal being much more secure. So what can you do? Though Graphite might not be the total phone hijacking super spyware that the Guardian and others claim it to be, it still poses a significant security threat. Some basic digital security precautions apply here. Get into a habit of regular digital cleaning, remove unnecessary content from your device, save space. Old photos can be uploaded to an external encrypted hard drive and question if you really need years of messages stored on Your phone use an encrypted chat app like Signal, which has disappearing messages, so that there isn't a large backlog of communications that could be suddenly accessed by a hostile actor. Be very wary of cloud backups. They are often one of the least secure aspects of your digital life, especially if they are unencrypted. And though it won't deter zero click exploits, it's still best practice to avoid clicking mysterious links or downloading files and photos sent to your phone. Another tip is to regularly reboot your phone. Contrary to claims that once your phone has been targeted by graphite, it's now compromised forever, something called malware persistence, to our current knowledge, rebooting can wipe Paragon's exploits. It does not appear that Paragon spyware is at the moment reboot persistent. And it seems that rebooting would actually remove it from the phone.
- [99:29]
Cooper Quinton
My reading is that rebooting it would remove the malware from your phone until you are re exploited, which. So you know, if you just reboot and you don't update or, you know, the zero day isn't out yet.
- [99:39]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [99:40]
Cooper Quinton
They're just going to run the exploit again, right? I think it's a fair bet that they're just going to run the exploit again, but it would be enough to get it off for that time. Right. And I mean, I think as far as mitigation, my friend recommends that people, like, reboot their phone every. Every morning when they're brushing their teeth. Right. And I don't think it's a bad bit of security hygiene if these guys are going to, in fact, you might as well make it, you know, more of a headache for them. Right. You might as well make it more costly for them because there is going to be a charge to them for each time they have to reinfect you.
- [100:10]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [100:11]
Cooper Quinton
But yeah, it's certainly, I think, overblown to say that, you know, once it's on your phone, it's on your phone forever. And there's, you know, you just gotta, you know, throw your $1,000 phone in the trash and go buy another one. Like, no, you can, you know, if you don't feel safe just rebooting it.
- [100:25]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [100:26]
Cooper Quinton
Like a factory reset, that would be the next step.
- [100:28]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [100:28]
Cooper Quinton
I think that would, that would most likely get rid of any persistence mechanisms that were installed. I'm not familiar with any iOS malware, certainly that would survive a factory reset.
- [100:38]
Garrison Davis
But probably the most important thing besides using Signal is to keep your phone software updated. That's the simplest and best way to make it harder for spyware like graphite to make it onto your phone in the first place. Out of date software has many more known vulnerabilities to attack for extra protection. Enable lockdown mode on iPhone or advanced protection on Android.
- [101:02]
Cooper Quinton
So the reason it's important to keep your phone up to date and always install the latest security updates, even if it's a pain in the ass, and I know it's a pain in the ass, is because this makes an attacker have to use zero day exploits. So if you have an old version of the software on your phone, there are known exploits, known exploits are, you know, more or less free, right? They are already out there, they are already burned, they do not matter, right? Like the company already knows about them. An exploit loses basically all of its value as soon as the company knows about it and it's patched, right? So if you have out of date software on your phone, if you have out of date software on your computer, it changes the entire economics of attacking you, right? It's basically free for me to exploit your phone at this point and I will exploit it as many times as I want and I don't care if that exploit is burned, I don't care if you find it, because again, it's free, right? Zero day exploits for, especially for Apple, for like, you know, Android Pixel phones, for graphene, the alternative Android os, not graphite. This has been giving me real problems lately. Zero day exploits, meaning exploits that the manufacturer does not know about and has not had a chance to patch. Cost millions of dollars for these platforms. And a zero click exploit where the victim doesn't have to interact with it at all, right? I don't have to click a L, I don't have to do something. You just send me, you know, a PDF, an infected PDF or a magic file, right, or something and my phone is infected. Those are the most expensive of all, right? Those, those are sort of the, those are the golden ticket for malware companies, right? And million, these cost millions of dollars. And if you burn it, right? If it gets caught, like, like you know what happened with WhatsApp and Citizen Lab in Italy, right? That's millions of dollars down the drain for Paragon. You know, they're going to pass that on to the Italian government, to ice, to whoever their contractors are, right? So keeping your phone up to date totally changes the economics of running a malware attack against you, right? Like anybody can run, you know, out of their office. Old, you know, end day, right? More than zero day malware attacks against anybody, right? Like those are cheap. But if your stuff is patched. No, it's going to, it's, it's, it totally changes the entire game. And you gotta be doing really good work for ICE to, to want to burn that much money on you.
- [103:33]
Garrison Davis
All these tips can make it considerably harder and more importantly, extremely expensive for this spyware to get onto your device. These exploits could only be deployed against individual targets, and that gets quite expensive. Just because ICE could theoretically hack your phone, that doesn't mean that your phone is necessarily at a high risk of being hacked by ice. Who are the possible targets for graphite spyware? Who is at higher risk? Journalists who report on ICE and immigration. People who work for immigration advocacy organizations, immigration lawyers, as well as high profile activists. It goes without saying that anything you do on your phone or on the Internet carries a level of inherent risk.
- [104:21]
Robert Evans
Foreign.
- [104:28]
Garrison Davis
With a longer segment from my interview with Cooper discussing who's at the most risk of ICE using Paragon software and more of Cooper's recommended surveillance mitigation practices. This is not something that can be deployed at a protest and sweep up, you know, thousands of people. This, this does go after, like, individuals because of its cost and the way that it needs to be deployed.
- [104:51]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [104:51]
Garrison Davis
Who are the people that you would say are most at risk of this? Like, is this your, like, your local, like, you know, food not bombs organizer or like an immigration lawyer? Like.
- [105:01]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [105:02]
Garrison Davis
Who should be concerned, I guess, and, and take, take this threat like, more seriously?
- [105:06]
Cooper Quinton
Definitely. I think people who should be concerned are. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. Right. The, the people that should be concerned about this are people who have, you know, been a special pain in the ass for ICE in particular. Right. You know, people who might be under HSI investigation. Right. People who, you know, have been threatened by the President or by Pam Bondi, you know, specifically. Right. Like, had their name called out. Specifically.
- [105:39]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [105:40]
Cooper Quinton
People who are, you know, very loud, very active. Right. Like the sort of leaders. What's the term? Tall poppies. Right. Like the people that are really have their head sticking out.
- [105:53]
Michael Tura
Right. In a way that's like very public.
- [105:54]
Cooper Quinton
And very well known. If you have risen to the level where, like, Tom Homan knows your name personally.
- [106:00]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [106:00]
Cooper Quinton
That makes it a pretty good chance that, that, you know, you might become a target of this. Right. Like, that's, that's who we're talking about.
- [106:08]
Garrison Davis
Well, and like, as we've seen in Italy, like, that can, that can include like, like anti fascist journalists.
- [106:13]
Cooper Quinton
Yeah, definitely.
- [106:14]
Garrison Davis
People who work for, like, migrant human rights organizations.
- [106:18]
Michael Tura
Yes.
- [106:18]
Garrison Davis
High Profile activists. And I think, like, there's a real concern with, with, you know, trying to compromise the phone of journalists because of how journalists, like, talk to sources, how journalists might have information about like other people besides the journalist on their phone. They may be targeting through the journalists, but trying to get after other people who they're talking to. Same thing with, like immigration lawyers. And like, there is real concern about harm spreading from those factors. And I think that's why if you, you are in those sorts of like, roles at the, like, like a human rights organization, a journalist or a lawyer, you need to be like, extra careful about keeping your like, phone updated regularly. Engaging in like, digital hygiene, having disappearing messages, maybe putting on lockdown mode onto your iPhone. Be very wary of being added to mysterious group chats. These are just general practices that are, I think, worthwhile to like engage in whether or not you're actually going to get targeted by this.
- [107:11]
Cooper Quinton
Absolutely. And I want to especially single out lockdown mode there. Like, we are not aware of any infections of any malware, right. Pegasus graphite, right. Any others that have managed to successfully infect an iPhone on lockdown mode. So if you are worried about this, lockdown mode is the single most effective thing you can do to protect yourself against this malware, right. Is go turn on lockdown mode if you're on Android.
- [107:39]
Garrison Davis
I think Google calls it advanced protection mode.
- [107:42]
Cooper Quinton
Yeah, yeah, Advanced protection mode. So advanced protection mode used to be not very comprehensive and I think like with the new Android Update with Android 16 that came out, you know, I think like last week or something, it's now much more comparable to lockdown mode. So, you know, I highly recommend turning that on if you're on Android.
- [108:04]
Garrison Davis
All my homies love lockdown mode.
- [108:06]
Robert Evans
Yes, yes.
- [108:07]
Cooper Quinton
That is the number one protection, right. The other thing I strongly recommend always and I be this drum, like every day is turn on disappearing messages. If you're on Signal or WhatsApp, go turn on disappearing messages, right? Because this is good against a lot of different things, right? Like this is good against Celebrate as well as Pegasus as well as gravity, right? Like if the messages are gone by the time you get infected, there's no way to recover those, right. You're minimizing your footprint, right?
- [108:37]
Garrison Davis
Yep.
- [108:37]
Cooper Quinton
Go to delete old chats, right? Like if you, if you get a second, right? Like we've all, Google has trained us to all be digital hoarders, right? And keep, depending how old you are, 20 years of email, 10 years of email, whatever, right? Never, never delete anything, right. And that's don't ignore them. Ignore Google. Google doesn't want you to delete things because they want to use all that data for selling you ads.
- [108:58]
Michael Tura
Right?
- [108:58]
Cooper Quinton
Delete everything.
- [108:59]
Garrison Davis
I want more underwater data centers.
- [109:01]
Cooper Quinton
Yes, yes, exactly.
- [109:02]
Mia Wong
Delete everything.
- [109:04]
Cooper Quinton
Delete your files. You know, like get rid of those old group chats. Right, get rid of those old chats that you don't anymore.
- [109:10]
Garrison Davis
You need to be like that lawyer in Death Note. Yeah, delete. Yes, delete.
- [109:16]
Cooper Quinton
Oh, the Death Note reference.
- [109:20]
Garrison Davis
Do you wanna, do you wanna plug citizen lab/eff and tell people where to find both your work and then also other people who are doing research into graphite and like, you know, if you've been suspected of, of being targeted by, you know, maybe notification.
- [109:35]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [109:36]
Garrison Davis
How you can participate in forensic analysis to help everyone be more secure against this in the future.
- [109:41]
Cooper Quinton
Yeah, for sure. So one of the best ways to find out you've been targeted by state sponsored malware is to get a notification from Apple or Google or WhatsApp or some other large company that you have been targeted by state sponsored malware. Typically these notifications don't contain much more information than we believe you've been targeted by a nation state or by state sponsored male malware. But if you do get one of those notifications, take it very seriously. Reach out to AccessNow or to EFF or to Citizen Lab and let us know and we will help figure out what's going on. This is the number one indicator because this malware is usually fairly stealthy. It's not actually, I don't know, flashing you're infected on your screen. But yeah, Citizen Lab is always doing amazing work. I'm a fellow there, so I get to work with them sometimes, which is very exciting. They are based out of the Munk School of Global affairs at the University of Toronto. And their website is citizenlab.org where you can find a lot of really excellent research on the types of threats that target civil society.
- [110:53]
Garrison Davis
I have CitizenLab CA. Oh, but I'm Canadian.
- [110:57]
Michael Tura
You.
- [110:57]
Cooper Quinton
You are probably correct. I can never remember the as.
- [111:02]
Garrison Davis
As a Canadian, I was very, I was very put off by you erasing our nation's history of our, of our coveted dot ca. We love. We love our dot ca.
- [111:11]
Cooper Quinton
I am not trying to start a war with Canada.
- [111:14]
Garrison Davis
Well, many, many people are.
- [111:16]
Cooper Quinton
So listen, I'm firmly on the side of Canada in the war against Canada.
- [111:20]
Michael Tura
Okay? Please take me in.
- [111:22]
Garrison Davis
Please. Yeah, your solidarity is noted.
- [111:28]
Cooper Quinton
So citizenlab.org actually redirects to citizenlab CA. So we were both right.
- [111:32]
Garrison Davis
There you go.
- [111:33]
Cooper Quinton
Or you were maybe more right. So, yeah, CitizenLab, ca and yeah, they're really fantastic. A lot of really good research going there. At eff.org, the Electronic Frontier foundation, we're a US based nonprofit, been around for 35 years defending civil liberties as they intersect with technology. So a lot of free speech work, a lot of, you know, privacy and fourth amendment work. And we also have a really excellent set of guides called the Surveillance Self defense guides, which are@ssd.eff.org, which I highly recommend people go and check out. It's the most sort of evergreen guide for defending yourself online. A lot of the problem with online security guides is they get out of date very quickly. And we have a totally whole full time person dedicated to making sure that our guides stay up to date.
- [112:20]
Garrison Davis
I'll put a link in the description.
- [112:21]
Cooper Quinton
Yeah, and we're a nonprofit, member supported nonprofit. So you know, if you like to work, throw us a few bucks. We, we work for tips. And yeah, those are the two places that I'm at that I want to plug. Only other thing to plug. I guess you can follow me on social media. I'm@cooperq.com on bluesky and Cooper Q at Masto Hackers Town on Mastodon.
- [112:42]
Garrison Davis
Hell yeah.
- [112:44]
Cooper Quinton
Yeah.
- [112:45]
Garrison Davis
All right, well, thank you so much. Thank you for the work you do at EFF and Citizen Lab.
- [112:50]
Michael Tura
Thank you.
- [112:51]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, I guess we should always throw away our phones since there's no way to use our phone safely anymore.
- [112:55]
Cooper Quinton
I mean, throwing away our phones isn't a terrible idea.
- [112:59]
Garrison Davis
That's not bad. You know what? I could be onto something.
- [113:02]
Cooper Quinton
I think for our own sanity, just in general.
- [113:06]
Garrison Davis
No, I think they're making us more connected and I think they're making us more stable.
- [113:11]
Cooper Quinton
They are making us more connected, that's for sure. In that I get 5 billion notifications per day. If that's what connected means.
- [113:18]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [113:19]
Honey German
All right.
- [113:35]
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- [114:33]
Garrison Davis
A foot washed up.
- [114:35]
Michael Tura
A shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable.
- [114:44]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
These are the coldest of cold cases.
- [114:47]
Garrison Davis
But everything is about to change.
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Every case that is a cold case.
- [114:51]
Robert Evans
That has DNA right now in a.
- [114:53]
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Backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking.
- [114:58]
Garrison Davis
The code on DNA using new scientific tools.
- [115:01]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.
- [115:06]
Cooper Quinton
He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [115:12]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors and you'll meet the.
- [115:17]
Garrison Davis
Team behind the scenes at all othram.
- [115:19]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
The Houston lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's honey German and my podcast Gracias Come Again is back. This season we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition?
- [115:47]
Robert Evans
No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned like over 25 years.
- [115:50]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Oh, wow. That's a real G talk right there.
- [115:53]
Robert Evans
Oh, yeah.
- [115:54]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a star. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of chisme, a lot of laughs, and those amazing vivas you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity struggles and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewashed because you have to do the code switching.
- [116:24]
Michael Tura
I won't say whitewashed because at the.
- [116:26]
Robert Evans
End of the day, you know, I'm me. Yeah. But the whole pretending and coat, you know, it takes a toll on you.
- [116:31]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
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- [116:40]
Michael Tura
What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on Earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Shock Incarceration, also known as boot camp, are short term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you and.
- [117:29]
Cooper Quinton
We didn't know what to expect in the morning.
- [117:31]
Robert Evans
Nobody tells you anything.
- [117:32]
Michael Tura
Listen to Shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [117:44]
Dana Elkurd
Hello everyone and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My name is Dana Elkurd. I'm a writer, analyst and researcher of Palestinian and Arab politics. I'm an associate professor of Political science and a senior non resident fellow at the Arab Center, Washington. What a wild time in the Middle east, am I right? I mean, not to be flippant, that's putting it mildly. Today before I recorded Israel bombed the capital of Qatar, Doha, in an assassination attempt against Hamas leadership. They bombed in a residential area in the middle of the city surrounded by nurseries, schools, businesses and, you know, people. I have a lot to say about Arab Israeli relations historically and what's happening on that front today and the sometimes shared interests of Arab regimes with the Israeli state. So stay tuned for a deep dive episode on that topic soon. Today I want to talk about the issue of Palestinian statehood. It's been in the news quite a bit these days. A number of different countries have expressed a willingness to recognize Palestine as a state. In July, for example, France announced it would recognize Palestinian statehood and it was soon joined by a number of other countries, Canada, Malta, Belgium, the uk. Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister of the UK actually made it into an explicit threat. Basically, we will recognize the state of Palestine if the Israelis don't agree to a ceasefire. I'd like to underscore the absurdity of that comment for a second, but we'll get back to that one. For all these countries, they say that they are recognizing Palestine as a state because they desire a two state solution. Their condition for recognizing Palestine as a state also includes Hamas being completely out of the picture, quote demilitarized in the language of French President Macron as NPR reported back in August 1, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney also said that the Palestinian Authority needs to hold elections in this scenario, but one that excludes Hamas. So all of these recent announcements are coalescing around the same conditions. I guess the big deal here is that these are major powers, France and the UK who have veto power in the UN Security Council, for example. So the plan to recognize Palestinian statehood has gotten a lot of press and attention. But the thing is, 145 countries already recognize Palestine as a state. Palestine was given observer status at the UN in 2012, and the Palestinian Authority has been working for quite some time to get more recognition internationally and to be able to use the international legal system to advocate for themselves. So what does this recognition actually mean? A state that is occupied entirely by another and is currently undergoing ethnic cleansing at different levels of severity in all parts of its territories? What state is actually being recognized here? What does statehood mean in the context of occupation and ethnic cleansing? It might help to go back to the Oslo Accords that were signed by the Palestine Liberation Organization, the PLO and the State of Israel. This was the first time that Israel and the Palestinians agreed to something directly. A stipulation of the Oslo Accords was mutual recognition, meaning Israel would recognize that the PLO was the representative of the Palestinian people and the PLO would recognize Israel's right to exist. This was later criticized as uneven by Palestinian negotiators such as Hanan Ashrawi because the PLO was already internationally recognized as the representative of the Palestinian people. So her argument more recently has been they accepted Israel's control for getting recognition in return. The US Ambassador to Israel at the time, Daniel Kurtzer, concurred with that assessment, saying to the New York Times that the Oslo Agreement was full of holes, the mutual recognition was asymmetrical, and that was to hurt the Palestinian negotiating position for years to come. End quote. Nevertheless, the oslo Accords of 1993 are widely understood to be the attempt to bring about a two state solution of some kind. And it's been the framework that many international powers have paid lip service to ever since. By the way, September 2023 marked the 30 year anniversary of the accords. We all know what happened October 7th just a few days later. Thing is, the Oslo framework didn't say two states. The Oslo Accords just said that they would continue negotiations on some eventual final framework. Now, Palestinians wanted a state, of course, and the Israelis were committing to negotiations. So the Palestinians were told to start building up a sort of state, a quasi state in parts of the occupied territories to start governing themselves in particular ways. And this was called the Palestinian National Authority. I talked about this at more length in the episode for it could happen here, titled Palestine's Stolen Future. So if you're interested, you can listen to that one. The Oslo Accords split the occupied territories into three parts, Area A, B and C, all of which remained under the Israeli occupation's control, but still there were some differences between them. In Area A, which is less than 20% of the land, that's where a lot of the urban centers are, the Palestinian Authority was allowed to function, build and run institutions of governance. So if you go to Ramallah, for example, you'll see big buildings with Palestinian Authority insignia. In Area B, the Palestinian Authority had partial access. And in Area C, which is the majority of the territories, the Palestinian Authority was and continues to to not be allowed to function. But the PA did use this as an opportunity to create the basis of a state, creating ministries, beginning a parliament, writing laws, and importantly creating security forces. Throughout all this, Israel maintained military control over the entire territory and Israeli settlements continued to expand. So what the Israelis got out of the OSSA Accords was they got out of providing certain services and they let Palestinians do that for themselves, but they didn't actually cede meaningful control over any part of the territory. Now, it's important to pause here. An occupying force is obligated under international law to provide services to the population it occupies and to return the land to the sovereign, the occupied people, as soon as possible. As the European Society of International Law notes, quote the 1907 Hague Regulations, the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention and modern body of international human rights instruments contain a number of provisions which protect the lives, property, natural resources, institutions, civil life, fundamental human rights and latent sovereignty of the people under occupation, while curbing the security powers of the occupying power to those genuinely required to safely administer the occupation. End quote. And if the occupier occupies indefinitely, then it's not really an occupation anymore, is it? Again, as the European Society of International Law notes, the concept of prolonged occupation may well become a legal guise that masks a de facto colonial exercise and defeats the transient and exceptional nature which occupations are intended to be. End quote. But that is exactly what has continued before and after the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords never ended. The occupation never gave back land to Palestinians. All it did is strip the occupier of its responsibility under the guise of the working towards a two state solution. And really, anybody who has looked at what has transpired honestly would say that there has always been a mismatch between what the Israelis wanted and were willing to give and what the Palestinians wanted, even to the degree of what both sides meant when they said state has always been mismatched. So I'll explain what I mean. Palestinians have always wanted a legitimate state. What does that mean? Well, a state has sovereignty. It has control over its own territory. It has the monopoly on the use of violence within its boundaries. That's the most basic definition of state sovereignty. Israel never intended for any of that. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who signed the Oslo Accords, in his final address to the Knesset before he was assassinated by a right wing Israeli, clearly stated that what was on offer for the Palestinians was something, quote, less than a state. Yitzhak Rabin was in the Labour Party. But again, if people are being honest, this is a bipartisan position in Israel. Israeli political leaders have at best offered something less than a state and at worst offered surrender or annihilation. I'm not being hyperbolic here. Basil Smotrich of the Religious Zionist Party, who is now the finance Minister, has for years actively promoted his decisive plan, which has become the policy of the state today. The plan proposes that one, any Palestinian who is willing and able to relinquish the fulfillment of his national aspirations would be able to stay and live as an individual in the Jewish state, not as a citizen. And two, any Palestinian who is unwilling or unable to relinquish his national aspirations will receive assistance from them to immigrate to one of the Arab countries. So essentially what he's saying is Palestinians have to either give up and be a subject or leave, surrender or transfer. The US as a supposed mediator and third party, has not really strayed from that. Sovereignty has always been approximated with self governance from the United States perspective. Jared Kushner, for example, in his Peace to Prosperity plan, which was the linchpin of Donald Trump's Israel Palestine proposer back in the first Trump administration, invokes the idea of sovereignty only to insist that it should no longer be the crux of negotiations. According to the Trump administration, the notion that sovereignty is a static and consistently defined term has been an unnecessary stumbling block in past negotiations, and this amorphous concept is best put aside to focus on pragmatic and operational concerns. Ironically, the liberal version of a two state solution espoused by every Democratic administration essentially envisions the same endpoint, a Palestinian entity demilitarized and subordinate to Israel's economic and security concerns. But Palestinians want a state. They want A state in the full meaning of the term. And that state has to be legitimate not only internationally, but in the eyes of the Palestinian people. Political scientist Tanya Alberts argues that sovereignty is an identity of states. It's constituted by the norms of international society. States are recognized as sovereign if they achieve self determination for a group of people. The fact that on rare occasions the international system has refused to recognize certain political entities as states specifically because they had violated the right of self determination highlights how we now think of political authority. So for example, the international community did not recognize Rhodesia as a state because it violated the self determination of the black majority in that country, even though white people in Rhodesia did exercise material control over that country. In other words, the state's right to sovereignty must flow from some sort of legitimacy. A state rules because society approves. This doesn't mean that every sovereign state is democratic, but simply that states derive their status from the citizens buy in. And because the state claims to represent the will of maybe a certain ethnic or civic identity, it's understood as an executor of the law enacted by the people who are sovereign. So sovereignty then should also be understood as the ability of people who consider themselves of that place to exercise control over territory and have a say in its future. Populist movements, secessionist movements and other movements that challenge a certain state sometimes claim popular sovereignty, legitimizing their assertions with reference to their historical legacy or continuity or indigeneity, even in the absence of a representative state. And Palestinians are one such group. They've struggled not merely for the right to exist, but also for political control and state institutions that represent and uphold their national identity. And the legitimacy of their sovereignty claim stems not only from their long ties to the territory, but also from the fact that they have long conceived themselves as a nation. A nation that has never ceded its demand for a sovereign state with the promise of subjugation, subsistence or integration into another state. So to make this very clear, Palestinians want the state that is sovereign. They certainly don't mean self governance. And Palestinians, after 30 years of Oslo, that has only left them worse off, certainly don't want to go back to trying the same process again. So when these countries recognize Palestine as a state, as a way of pretending to pressure for the two state solution, they're not saying anything about what happens to the territories that are currently being wiped out, like literally all of Gaza and even parts of the West Bank. They're not saying anything about Israeli settlements, they're not saying anything about reparations. And because of that some Palestinians have argued that these statehood recognition things are a cynical ploy to distract from the inaction of these countries on addressing the genocide in Gaza, basically pretending to act without actually doing anything. Palestinian analyst Main Rabani said this to NPR recently. In the end, simply recognizing Palestinian statehood is a low cost option. It may placate a domestic audience demanding action while doing very little to actually change the situation on the ground. Others have argued even further that not only are these declarations of recognition a cynical ploy to distract, but they may even be a sort of trap. Legal expert and professor Noor et and international lawyer and professor Shahed Hamuri wrote for Jadalia on this, which I'll link in the show notes they argue effectively that the best thing to come out of this is a challenge maybe to the US the greatest promise of this renewed statehood bid, the most recent push being in 2011 2012, is a united front to challenge US intransigent support for Israel, end quote. However, they also point out that, quote, states do not need to recognize Palestine to end the occupation to end the genocide and advance Palestinian self determination. They argue that states, quote, need decisive will to impose arms and energy embargoes and trade with an investment in Israel, unseat it from the un, hold Israeli war criminals and complicit corporations accountable in their national courts and arrest Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in compliance with the ICC's arrest warrant, end quote. So the bit for statehood doesn't solve problems, it only gives states the fig leaf to actually delay solving problems. On top of that, it risks empowering illegitimate and corrupt Palestinian leadership in any future negotiations. I'm talking a leadership that includes Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, who 80% of Palestinians polled said they want him to resign, and an institution like the Palestinian authority that only 15% of Palestinians are satisfied with, according to the latest polling. As Araat Alhamuri note, quote, the terms of the High level International Conference for the Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine convened in New York, led by France and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, confirm these risks. The Palestinian Authority is glorified in at least seven clauses entrusted with governing the state, effectively paving the way for a police state alongside a settler colonial entity, end quote. None of the talk of recognizing Palestine amid all of these conditions and stipulations ever say anything about the power imbalance between the two parties or address the root causes of conflict. Now, on the other hand, political scientist Paul Post, writing for World Politics Review, says, quote, recognition isn't just theater. Recognition is a long standing legal institution that has the important function of identifying major actors in the international system. And for policymakers, recognition is the looseness in the rules that allows them to use recognition not only to identify actors, but also to express opinions about them or to secure concessions from them. So from his perspective, these declarations of recognition are meaningful in some shape or form. Here's my take. Statehood recognition is not meaningless. In fact, it's probably dangerous in this current moment because what it's trying to do is to cement the conflict in its place. These countries recognizing Palestine want to hurry the current Palestinian leadership into accepting a state and name only that is not sovereign. They want to force the Israelis to the table to do that. And they want these conditions to become the precedent for future negotiations. And we see signs of this in other ways. For example, the international community and regional powers pressured Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas into changing the rules of the PLO's internal governance in order to appoint a successor because they were afraid he was going to keel over. And he appointed a very unpopular figure named Hussain Al Sheikh, as I wrote for the Guardian, alongside Palestinian Chilean activist Pablo of Abu Fom in May of this year, Abbas also expanded the Central Council of the PLO and appointed friendly people to it. All of this shows that the international community, in pressuring the Palestinian leadership in these directions, has no interest in democratic buy in and actually getting the buy in of the Palestinian people really thinking that a legitimate negotiation would ever be sustainable under these circumstances. This state of affairs, these schemes where international powers try to ignore what the Palestinian people want yet again is the reason Palestinians don't really have any hope in any solution. In polling on one state, two states, etc. 47% prefer the two state solution based on the 1967 borders, 15% prefer a confederation between the two states, and 14% of Palestinians prefer the establishment of a single state with equality between the two sides. 24% of Palestinians polled said that they did not know or did not want to answer. Also, when asked about the public's support or opposition to specific political measures to break the current political deadlock, 68% of Palestinians supported joining more international organizations. But still 50% supported resorting to unarmed popular resistance, 46% supported a return to armed intifado, and 42% supported the dissolution of the Palestinian Authority. 26% supported abandoning the two state solution and demanding one state for Palestinians and Israelis. What this sort of polling shows is that Palestinians now understand very clearly that the international system is screwing them over. International law hasn't been able to help them and that the solutions for a two state solution being proposed with all of these conditions won't ever actually get to two states and won't give them real sovereignty. The mass protests and actions that took place in 2021, Palestinian activists called this the unity uprising or intifada show that this has always been about sovereignty. In the unity intifada of 2021, Palestinian activists spoke of a shared struggle against Israel's continued erasure of Palestinians. Palestinians living under Israeli rule across the country, whether they had citizenship or they didn't, rejected the old style of politics. They rejected what they saw as artificial fragmentation and they insisted instead on their national identity and shared struggle As a result. At that time we witnessed an extraordinary amount of organizing across the Green Line, so in the territories and in Israel with Palestinian citizens of Israel, and it was a way of reclaiming Palestinian sovereignty. The same activists and groups involved in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Sharah linked up with those organizing in Haifa, in Umm Al Fahim. They built on these connections to launch campaigns over and over in Masafir, the Naqab and much more. Sovereignty has always been an animating demand for Palestinians since before October 7th, and that's surely on everyone's minds now that the war in Gaza has extended this long. So the takeaway here is recognition isn't the solution. Statehood may not even be the solution, at least not in the terms they're offering. Sovereignty has always been what the demand is, and these pushes for recognition miss that point yet again. That's it for me. Thank you for listening to another Palestine episode and I'll be back with more soon. Take care.
- [139:34]
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- [140:33]
Michael Tura
What would you do if One bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short term, highly regimented correctional program programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was overwhelming and you don't know who's next to you, and.
- [141:22]
Cooper Quinton
We didn't know what to expect in the morning.
- [141:24]
Robert Evans
Nobody tells you anything.
- [141:25]
Michael Tura
Listen to shock incarceration on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up, a shoe with.
- [141:36]
Robert Evans
Some bones in it.
- [141:37]
Michael Tura
They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire, that not a whole lot was salvageable.
- [141:44]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
These are the coldest of cold cases.
- [141:47]
Garrison Davis
But everything is about to change.
- [141:49]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Every case that is a cold case.
- [141:51]
Robert Evans
That has DNA right now in a.
- [141:53]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking.
- [141:58]
Garrison Davis
The code on DNA using new scientific tools.
- [142:01]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
They're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it.
- [142:06]
Cooper Quinton
He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen, I was just like, ah, gotcha.
- [142:12]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the.
- [142:17]
Garrison Davis
Team behind the scenes at othram, the.
- [142:19]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Houston lab that takes on the most.
- [142:21]
Garrison Davis
Hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable.
- [142:26]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Listen to America's Crime Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, it's honey German. And my podcast, Gracias. Come Again is back. This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition.
- [142:47]
Robert Evans
No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned in, like, over 25 years.
- [142:50]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Oh, wow. That's a real G talk right there.
- [142:53]
Robert Evans
Oh, yeah.
- [142:54]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success. You were destined to be a star. We talk all about what's viral and trending with a little bit of cheeseme, a lot of laughs, and those amazing vivas you've come to expect. And of course, we'll explore deeper topics dealing with identity struggles and all the issues affecting our Latin community. You feel like you get a little whitewashed because you have to do the code switching.
- [143:24]
Michael Tura
I won't say whitewash because at the.
- [143:26]
Robert Evans
End of the day, you know, I'm me.
- [143:27]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Yeah.
- [143:27]
Robert Evans
But the whole pretending and coat, you know, it takes a toll on you.
- [143:31]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Listen to the new season of Grass has come again as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.
- [143:45]
Garrison Davis
This is it could Happen Here. Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what is happening in the White House, the crumbling world and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by Sophie Lichterman, Robert Evans and J. James Stout. This episode we are covering the week of September 4th to September 11th.
- [144:05]
Michael Tura
Never for wait, remember.
- [144:07]
Honey German
Wait, what?
- [144:08]
Michael Tura
Never forget whichever one of those we're supposed to do.
- [144:12]
Garrison Davis
So we had a very big Newsweek already and then a very big piece of news happened yesterday when we usually record executive disorder. But this is Thursday. We waited a little bit to get some more information before we talk about this story, which will probably be the biggest story of the week. The assassination of Charlie Kirk.
- [144:35]
Michael Tura
So on Wednesday, September 10, at Utah Valley University at around 12:23pm Mountain Time, Charlie Kirk was shot during a campus event. It was a big outdoor event. The crowd, I mean there's some good footage of elevation of the size of the crowd. It looked like several thousand people who had shown up to. I think it did all it seemed like largely supporters, but there were certainly a mix of supporters and protesters around.
- [145:02]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [145:02]
Michael Tura
And yeah, Kirk was shot once from a distance of I think the right now the best estimate is around 150 yards. But I mean that's precise, not accurate because people are kind of basing it on just sort of like looking at the images and doing like Google Maps to satellite estimation. Right, right. But that does seem credible based on what I've seen. About 150 yards or so. Yeah. Which is not long. Ra. That's not like short range. It's like low medium range for a rifle. And they found, or at least the FBI is saying they found the rifle. And the pictures show it to be an extremely normal looking bolt action hunting rifle. Kirk was shot once in the neck. It hit his brain stem. You can kind of tell by the way his arms moved after he was shot. So he probably lost consciousness immediately and he was declared dead about two hours later at the hospital. But that's largely because that that tends to be how it's handled. When somebody is shot like this, they don't like to announce their death immediately, even if they died immediately. Like that's just kind of. It's best practice. You want to make sure you've contacted the family and everything like that. So that's what happened.
- [146:09]
Honey German
Yeah. In his case, the family were present, I think at the, at the event.
- [146:15]
Michael Tura
I mean I'm sure some of them, but there's. Yeah, like not every. Like they would have probably wanted. Like I doubt his parents or whatever were all there or whatever. Like even if his wife and kids were.
- [146:24]
Honey German
Sure. Yeah, totally makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [146:26]
Michael Tura
Those are the facts that we can verify. There's actually fairly little besides this other than some time stuff that we could verify perfectly. Like they're currently saying that about 11:52am Mountain time the shooter arrived near campus because they do have some videos of the person they think was the shooter. There were at least two people who were taken into custody right after the shooting who proved not to be the guy. I think they were just grabbing people like it did not. There did not seem to be any good reason. One of them had a pellet rifle.
- [146:57]
Garrison Davis
The first guy started shouting after the shooting and I'll do it again. And this prompted him to be detained, but was later found to not be a legitimate suspect in the shooting.
- [147:09]
Michael Tura
No, because he was right next to the shooting. Yeah. Had no weapon, nothing. So I mean those are the facts. As they stand right now. The photo that has been released of the guy they think did it looks like about 80% of the male population of Utah, clean shaven. But otherwise he looks just as nondescript as like this dude takes his hat off, maybe shaves his head. Like it would not be wildly difficult for him to hide because he does not look like pretty grainy pictures.
- [147:41]
Garrison Davis
Not as clear as something like the United Healthcare CEO shooting.
- [147:46]
Dana Elkurd
And the FBI did offer a reward.
- [147:49]
Podcast Advertiser/Announcer
Of up to $100,000 for information. We do know that.
- [147:54]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [147:56]
Garrison Davis
Which points towards the usefulness of the tips they have been getting so far. Exactly.
- [148:01]
Michael Tura
Yeah. Yeah.
- [148:03]
Honey German
The rifle is for anyone who's interested. It looks. They said it was a Mauser. I guess it didn't look like one.
- [148:09]
Michael Tura
From the photos that they've released. But maybe that, maybe that was yet again not the gun because the FBI has said a lot of things and then backtracked on them.
- [148:17]
Cooper Quinton
Yeah.
- [148:17]
Honey German
The New York Post has a picture of a sporterized Spanish Mauser with a composite stock. Have you seen that one, Robert?
- [148:26]
Michael Tura
Yes, that's the one I saw that it looked like a savage to me. But is that a sporterized 8 millimeter that was re barreled to 30.06?
- [148:34]
Honey German
That would be my guess. The Spanish Mauser is the only one I'm aware of that has the bolt turned down in that way.
- [148:39]
Michael Tura
Good idea.
- [148:40]
Honey German
But it's not a great picture. It could also be something else because.
- [148:44]
Michael Tura
It just looked like any hunting rifle on a store rack. The, the photo that I saw.
- [148:49]
Honey German
Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's. Someone has done a sporty job on it.
- [148:53]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [148:53]
Honey German
What's somewhat interesting about that, like, other than just being a dweeb, is that potentially one could acquire a gun like that without having filled out a 4473 form. Right. Like a. An FBI background check. I know they will. If they have the weapon, they will certainly be pursuing, trying to trace that as one of the ways they're trying to locate the shooter.
- [149:16]
Michael Tura
Yes.
- [149:16]
Honey German
So if this person's either a relative could have acquired it before it was necessary to do a 4473. Yes. Or I think with curios and relics in some states or antique weapons, you don't have to do a background check.
- [149:30]
Michael Tura
No. And you don't have to do a background check. I mean, face to face sales are, I believe, legal in Utah. Yes, private face to face sales are legal in Utah.
- [149:40]
Honey German
Okay.
- [149:40]
Michael Tura
So if this guy bought. Basically what that means is if this guy just bought a gun in cash from a dude, there's not a record of that. Although said dude might come forward.
- [149:49]
Honey German
Sure.
- [149:49]
Michael Tura
That said, the fact that this is a sporterized old Mauser means this could be a gun that's been in the family a while that he sporterized. In which case there's absolutely no record of it.
- [149:59]
Honey German
Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, I'm guessing I've seen people call it a high powered rifle and stuff. Like just, just be aware it's kind of an old gun.
- [150:08]
Michael Tura
It's an old gun. I mean, if it is. 30:06, I would say that's a high power cartridge.
- [150:12]
Honey German
Yeah, no, it is.
- [150:13]
Michael Tura
That's a big round, but yeah, it's.
- [150:15]
Honey German
A full size rifle cartridge for sure.
- [150:17]
Michael Tura
People hunt deer with.30 06 all the time. It's an extremely normal hunting rifle.
- [150:21]
Honey German
Yeah. Like probably top five most common kinds of rifle for someone to have in this country.
- [150:26]
Michael Tura
And that was bolt action hunting rifle was my assumption as soon as I saw the video. Because the guy fired one shot. And it's relatively uncommon for people who are shooting in mass crowded Public situations like this to limit themselves to a single round, which it just suggests, number one, like a bolt action, which I also thought was likely because they didn't leave any ammo behind. And if he was firing something like an ar, those can fling brass so widely that you can't easily catch it. Like if you're. Especially if you're trying to escape immediately after shooting. And yeah, I would guess I'm seeing a lot of people online, obviously, conspiracies start. I'm seeing so many people say, like, this had to have been a hit. This was a professional. Only a professional hit have done this.
- [151:07]
Garrison Davis
This was Trump distracting from Epstein. This was the Mossad. This was any number of unhinged theories around this event.
- [151:16]
Michael Tura
And I will say right now, as pertains the competence of the shooter, anyone who had picked up a gun for the first time couldn't have easily done this. I doubt this is someone who was new to firearms, but anyone who shot a deer once or twice a year could have made this happen. Anybody who went to the range once or twice a month for a while could have gotten competent enough to make a shot like this very easily.
- [151:41]
Garrison Davis
Very doable for, like hobbyist shooters, which there are many of in the United States and many of in Utah.
- [151:46]
Michael Tura
I would be shocked if, like, less than about 80% of the adult male population of Utah could have made this shot. Right.
- [151:53]
Garrison Davis
You do not need, like, military training, you do not need to be a veteran to make this shot.
- [151:57]
Michael Tura
Absolutely not.
- [151:58]
Honey German
And I think it's very irresponsible to see so many people, like, including people who are journalists, speculating like that. Like, I know that generally firearms are not covered well in the US Media, despite them being ubiquitous here. But, like, in cases like this, it's okay not to know, but it's better to be quiet if you don't know.
- [152:14]
Michael Tura
Yes. The other thing I guess we should get into is in terms of the escape and what we know, this is also not something that necessitates Navy SEAL training. Right. Like, yeah, you're a white, clean cut guy in Salt Lake City. If you have a bag that you can hide your gun in and you get down, maybe throw on a different jacket or something like that over your shirt or change shirts, walk away, get to your car, drive off, very hard for them to track you. Salt Lake City's not New York. It's not blanketed in cameras, not like New York. There's not a massive police presence for this rally, and there certainly wasn't a massive police presence doing concentric Circles around the rally. This was not like a fucking. The President's in town and the Secret Service is locking everything down for two miles.
- [152:58]
Garrison Davis
No. And. And Charlie's own security tends to stay close to him at the event. They're not set up with giant perimeters.
- [153:05]
Michael Tura
No. Because none of them expected something like this.
- [153:08]
Honey German
Yeah. I'm sure that Charlie Kirk has received threats before, but, I mean, there's only so much a private individual can do. Right.
- [153:15]
Garrison Davis
In these situations, he often wears a bulletproof vest.
- [153:18]
Michael Tura
Yes.
- [153:18]
Honey German
Oh, really?
- [153:19]
Garrison Davis
Yeah.
- [153:20]
Michael Tura
Yeah. There's only so much a private individual can do. And there's only so much you can do if you're holding an event outside.
- [153:28]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [153:28]
Michael Tura
Like to stop somebody who's got a scoped rifle from getting on top of a roof. Right. Like, I'm sure his family is firing their current security right now, obviously, but I really don't know what they could have done. Like, what his personal security could realistically have done other than, say, don't do an event outside. Charlie. Yeah.
- [153:48]
Garrison Davis
A few other notes that we should touch on. On Thursday morning, some unverified information related to the ongoing investigation. Notes leaked online through fellow campus debater Steven Crowder. Steven Crowder shared an internal memo which contained unverified information, which reads in part, quote, atf and other law enforcement located an older model imported Mauser.30 06 caliber bolt action rifle wrapped in a towel in a wooded area near the campus. The location of the firearm appears to match suspect's route of travel. The spent cartridge was still chambered in addition to three unspent rounds in the top fed magazine. All cartridges have engraved wording on them expressing transgender and anti fascist ideology, unquote. So this claim linking the shooting to transgender and quote, unquote, anti fascist ideology, whatever that means, spread around the Internet like wild. As expected, though, a few hours later, the New York Times reported, quote. According to a preliminary internal report circulated inside the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives, federal and local officials recovered ammunition with the shooter's rifle that appeared to be engraved with statements expressing transgender and anti fascist ideology. But a senior law enforcement official with direct knowledge of the investigation cautioned that report had not been verified by atf. Analysts did not match other summaries of the evidence and might turn out to have been misread or misinterpreted. Yeah, in fast moving investigations, such status reports are not made public because they often contain a mixture of accurate and inaccurate information. Unquote.
- [155:34]
Michael Tura
Yes. And again, when that person with the pellet rifle was arrested, Cash Patel, director of The FBI posted on Twitter, we have the man who killed Charlie Kirk. And then had to post, like, an hour later. Nope. Which is not a thing you saw with previous directors of the FBI for a good reason.
- [155:52]
Honey German
Yeah. Like their handling of this has been pretty unorthodox.
- [155:58]
Michael Tura
No. And I can see why a fucking Steven Crowder fan in the ATF would want to get that out immediately.
- [156:03]
Garrison Davis
Totally.
- [156:04]
Michael Tura
Especially because he probably knew at some point that's going to get corrected. But what matters is it gets out for some degree of time.
- [156:10]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. And then that bakes into the reality of a certain number of people forever.
- [156:14]
Michael Tura
Yeah. Right. And that's what matters. Whether or not it's true, we don't know yet. Is it true or not? Right. We simply don't know.
- [156:21]
Garrison Davis
Hey, this is Garrison. This is just a short update. On Thursday evening, law enforcement gave a press conference where Utah Governor Spencer Cox cautioned against, quote, unquote, a tremendous amount of disinformation circulating online about the killing of Charlie Kirk and specifically cited bots from China and Russia which were encouraging violence and instilling disinformation into discourse around the shooting. Now, while there certainly have been many on the left who have been joking or even celebrating this shooting.
- [156:57]
Michael Tura
Oh, yeah, lots of people.
- [156:59]
Garrison Davis
Rhetoric from the right has been similarly violent, with calls to do mass violence or purge the Democrats or people on the left. I'm going to play video that the White House released late Wednesday night of Trump giving a statement on the shooting.
- [157:15]
Michael Tura
It's a long past time for all.
- [157:17]
Robert Evans
Americans and the media to confront the fact that violence and murder are the tragic consequence of demonizing those with whom you disagree daily after day, year after year, in the most hateful and despicable way possible. For years, those on the radical left have compared wonderful Americans like Charlie to Nazis and the world's worst mass murderers and criminals.
- [157:44]
Michael Tura
This kind of rhetoric is directly responsible.
- [157:48]
Robert Evans
For the terrorism that we're seeing in our country today. And it muddies.
- [157:53]
Dana Elkurd
Stop.
- [157:54]
Robert Evans
Right now, my administration will find each and every one of those who contributed to this atrocity and to other political violence, including the organizations that fund it and support it, as well as those who go after our judges, law enforcement officials, and everyone else who brings order to our country. From the attack on my life in Butler Path, Pennsylvania, last year, which killed a husband and father, to the attacks on ICE agents, to the vicious murder of a health care executive in the streets of New York, to the shooting of House Majority Leader Steve Scalise and three others.
- [158:35]
Michael Tura
Radical left political violence has hurt too.
- [158:37]
Robert Evans
Many innocent people and taken too many lives.
- [158:42]
Garrison Davis
The Trump assassin was not left wing.
- [158:46]
Honey German
No, no.
- [158:46]
Michael Tura
He was a registered Republican.
- [158:49]
Garrison Davis
There is currently no indication of the political alignment of this shooter whatsoever. Just because they killed Charlie Kirk does not mean that this was a left wing antifa super soldier. Charlie Kirk has had a memeified status on the Internet for the past few years, which has encouraged vitriol and threats from those on the extreme right as well as the far left.
- [159:09]
Honey German
Yeah, he's particularly disliked by like the hardcore anti Semites on the right.
- [159:13]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [159:13]
Garrison Davis
And the gripers have long had fun with making threats against Charlie Kirk and the quote, unquote, groiper war, which we don't have time to get into. But it's not just Trump's worrying statement there promising a degree of crackdown. Jesse Waters on Fox has claimed, quote, we're gonna avenge Charlie's death.
- [159:32]
Michael Tura
Yep.
- [159:33]
Garrison Davis
Here's a clip of Jesse Waters on Fox News last night.
- [159:37]
Mia Wong
Trump gets hit in the earth.
- [159:39]
Garrison Davis
Charlie gets shot dead.
- [159:42]
Michael Tura
They came after Kavanaugh with a rifle to his neighborhood.
- [159:45]
Robert Evans
They went after Musk's cars.
- [159:48]
Michael Tura
They just shot two Jews outside the embassy.
- [159:51]
Robert Evans
Think about it.
- [159:52]
Michael Tura
Scalise got shot, barely survived.
- [159:55]
Robert Evans
It's happening. We've got trans shooters, you got riots in la. They are at war with us.
- [160:02]
Michael Tura
Whether we want to accept it or.
- [160:04]
Robert Evans
Not, they are at war.
- [160:05]
Michael Tura
War with us.
- [160:06]
Robert Evans
What are we going to do about it?
- [160:08]
Mia Wong
How much political violence are we going to tolerate?
- [160:11]
Michael Tura
And that's the question we're just going to have to ask ourselves now.
- [160:15]
Garrison Davis
Charlie would want us to put as.
- [160:18]
Michael Tura
Much pressure on these people as possible. Dana nailed it.
- [160:22]
Robert Evans
This is unacceptable and has to stop.
- [160:26]
Garrison Davis
And it has to stop now.
- [160:28]
Michael Tura
And everybody's accountable.
- [160:30]
Robert Evans
And we're watching what they're saying on.
- [160:31]
Michael Tura
Television and who's saying what? The politicians, the media and all these rats out there. This can never happen again. It ends now. Greg's right again. This is a turning point and we know which direction we're going. He made a turning point joke, huh?
- [160:49]
Garrison Davis
Yes, That's Jesse Watters doing a turning point pun.
- [160:53]
Honey German
Also, the use of rats to refer to other people is. I know, it's giving like radio mil Colleen vibes.
- [161:02]
Michael Tura
It's also worth noting Republican Representative Clay Higgins from Louisiana is saying that he's seeking to have social media companies place lifetime bans on users who celebrated the assassination.
- [161:13]
Garrison Davis
It's not just Jesse Waters calling for war. Other commentators are employing very similar rhetoric, including Alex Jones and Steve Bannon.
- [161:21]
Michael Tura
We're in a war.
- [161:23]
Robert Evans
The left has been saying, put a bullseye on Trump bulls on his supporters.
- [161:26]
Michael Tura
Charlie Kirk's a casualty of war in this country.
- [161:32]
Garrison Davis
Chaya Raichek tweeted on the lips of TikTok account, quote, this is war. The Oath Keeper founder Stuart Rhodes announced on InfoWars that his militia would be reforming to help with security at right wing events.
- [161:44]
Michael Tura
Great. Oh gosh.
- [161:45]
Garrison Davis
There was a good Wired article Wednesday night which collected various calls to violence among the right in the aftermath of the shooting. Quote. Ed Martin, US Pardon attorney and former acting attorney for DC wrote on Twitter, quote, for it is written, vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the lord, citing Romans 12:19. Elon Musk posted the left is the party of Murder, then quoted a post blaming the left wing and mainstream media as well as figures like Gavin Newsom for radicalizing people against right wing figures like Kirk. Katie Miller, who works with Muscat Doge and is the wife of Stephen Miller, wrote on X that even liberals condemning violence, quote, have blood on their hands. You could be next Influencer and unofficial Trump advisor Laura Loomer posted on Twitter, the left are terrorists. Christopher Rufo, a conservative activist who popularized the demonization of critical race theory, suggested in a Twitter post that the radical left was responsible for the shooting and urged the U.S. government to, quote, infiltrate, disrupt, arrest and incarcerate all those who are responsible for this chaos, unquote. There's many, many more. This is after the right has long celebrated certain, certain types of political violence.
- [162:54]
Michael Tura
Oh yes, constantly.
- [162:56]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, like that old guy in Panama who shot a protester blocking the street.
- [163:00]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [163:01]
Garrison Davis
The entire right rallied behind that man. Kirk himself has embraced Kyle Rittenhouse, who shot and killed two people after a plastic bag was thrown in the direction of Kyle Rittenhouse. Kirk was vocally supportive of the man who tried to attack Nancy Pelosi in.
- [163:19]
Honey German
Her home and did attack Paul Pelosi.
- [163:22]
Michael Tura
Yes, Specifically, specifically urged his audience to bail him out.
- [163:25]
Garrison Davis
It was like not even two months ago that a Minnesota state senator and her husband were killed. Political violence exists across the spectrum. This is not a left wing problem. This is an American problem.
- [163:39]
Michael Tura
Yeah. I mean the vast majority of political of like, like terrorist attacks that are politically motivated in the US are right wing, like and have been for the last several decades. Per the FBI.
- [163:49]
Garrison Davis
In the 2012-2021, 55% of murders tied to political extremism came from white supremacy. 14% anti government, 6% other right wing, 20% Islamist, 4% left wing and the white supremacy 55% are far right Nazis.
- [164:08]
Michael Tura
Yeah. In terms of like, who did this? Yeah. I think we touched on Groipers a little bit. We should probably talk a bit more about the kind of online feud between a chunk of Nick Fuentes fan base and Charlie Kirk.
- [164:22]
Garrison Davis
It was certainly more prominent a few years ago as Kirk himself has moved further to Wright has adopted great replacement theory. The feud kind of dissipated. But it certainly was like a legitimate thing in the right for. For like years.
- [164:36]
Michael Tura
Yes. To the extent that that's. A number of folks are kind of have suspected that like maybe that's who did it. Again, we really have no idea. I'm just bringing this up to make the point that like there's a variety of reasons why this guy could have done this, why this person could have done this including could be an Epstein related thing. Right. There's a lot of anger at figures who kind of bought into the Trump line that we're done now with the Epstein stuff. There's no way to know. And I think that's. That's kind of where we have to end that part of our discussion here is we don't know why this was done and to extent it doesn't matter if it comes out tomorrow that this guy was like a White House staffer working for Donald Trump who did it because he thought Charlie Kerr could disregard. Like if some crazy shit like that happened, it wouldn't change at all the way that they're talking about this shooting.
- [165:22]
Honey German
Right.
- [165:22]
Michael Tura
Like it just doesn't matter. Like we are where we are with them them and they're saying a lot of the same stuff like this is an escalation in rhetoric but it's not a massive escalation in rhetoric over the way they've been talking about fucking the people changing like like the cracker barrel logo.
- [165:39]
Garrison Davis
We have to go to war.
- [165:41]
Michael Tura
We have to go to war. We're at war.
- [165:43]
Honey German
I was thinking about that when you said that like the libs of TikTok are tweeted that we're at war. Like you could probably go back and see dozens of other instances of almost exactly the same statement. Right.
- [165:53]
Michael Tura
And is this something that could lead to mass. Could this be. Because I've seen people comparing this guy like Charlie Kirk to Horst Wessel who was a Nazi, literally a pimp that was a member of the Nazi brownshirts who was murdered and it became a huge rallying cry for the Nazi party. Right. They made a song about him. It was a big deal. I think that's kind of a very silly comparison. For one thing, Horst Wessel is meaningful because he was killed before the Nazis came to power and they used his death. Death in order to get to power. And Trump is in power, if you're not aware.
- [166:26]
Garrison Davis
They don't need to invent excuses either to like crack down on the left or.
- [166:30]
Michael Tura
No.
- [166:30]
Garrison Davis
Or carry out their policies. They're already doing that. I've, I've seen people go into complete panic mode because they're gonna be like, they're gonna use this, this, this shooting to, to now do terrible things as if they're not already doing terrible things. Like they don't need to wait for events to happen. They are, are more than willing just to do whatever they want when they want to.
- [166:53]
Michael Tura
Yes, that is, that is exactly like the, the. That's exactly what I would tell you. And in terms of like, comparisons, I, I don't even think it's super useful to try to compare this to specific figures from German history because there's really no.
- [167:10]
Garrison Davis
Because It's America in 2025.
- [167:12]
Michael Tura
America in 2025.
- [167:13]
Garrison Davis
There's a viral TikTok of a man talking about the Book of Mormon like, like seconds after the shooting, standing next.
- [167:21]
Michael Tura
To where Kirk died. And we now know that he stole a bunch of shit from the booth that was covered in blood to sell it online. Like, go read all of the books. Deeply American Germany. You won't find anything like that in it.
- [167:34]
Honey German
Yeah, like, like a better historical comparison we will see.
- [167:37]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [167:38]
Honey German
Might be Jose Calvo Sotelo, like, whose death did immediately, sort of was one of the things that accelerated the start of the Spanish Civil War. I guess.
- [167:47]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [167:47]
Honey German
But even then, like, no one was tiktoking and grabbing merch that was stained by his blood.
- [167:53]
Michael Tura
No. And there's no, you can like, say, like, oh, well, this figure's assassination preceded this kind of violence. But like, okay, was that figure a guy who did what Charlie Kirk did and was connected in the way. No. Like, this is an American thing. This is new. This is a novel, his moment in history. And we don't know what's going to happen. I'm not saying don't. You know, if you were, if you were the kind of person who has been worried about right wing violence accelerating, you shouldn't be less worried right now. And I think that's a good thing to be worried about. There's been a spree of bomb threats called into like, historically black colleges today and DNC headquarters. Last I checked. I don't think anything actually has been done, but it makes sense. It's an anger reaction from the. Right. You know, you've got Some people who woke up pissed off this morning and decided to call in some bomb threats, apparently. We'll see, you know, who the culprits were there. But I didn't want to touch on something else that I've seen in the wake of all this that is pretty novel, but we should do an ad break first. All right, coming back, I wanted to talk briefly about the way AI is being used by civilian investigators to try and crack this caper. People have been using AI to enhance the images that the FBI released of the maybe shooter. Again, we don't even know that that guy's the shooter because they fucked up very badly on this initially. But people have been using to like, clarify. And we, we know that the AI is doing a bad job because, again, he's wearing a distinctive shirt. People found the shirt online. Ye. When the AI was like, solidifying the image on the shirt, it did it wrong. Like, it put, like a silhouette of a man on there that wasn't on there. Like, it, like, you can also submit.
- [169:48]
Garrison Davis
The same image to, like, five different AI imaging programs and get five wildly different results for what the face quote, unquote, looks like.
- [169:55]
Michael Tura
And I just brought that up because I haven't seen that happen before with one of these things. And it was like, oh, okay, cool. That's a fun new.
- [170:02]
Garrison Davis
This is going to be something we're going to have to deal with now for every single preceding event.
- [170:07]
Michael Tura
Absolutely, yes.
- [170:08]
Garrison Davis
Whatever this hellscape of the American century of humiliation looks like, yes.
- [170:13]
Michael Tura
The other thing I wanted to bring up is within about like two to three hours after Kirk was killed and after again it had been announced that he was dead, people were asking, Grok, is this video? Because the video was spreading wildly of him dying on everywhere, really. But people asked on Twitter, they asked, Grok, Elon Musk's AI, is this real? And the response response that was posted initially was, charlie Kirk takes the roast in stride with a laugh. He's faced tougher crowds. Yes. He survives this one easily. And then someone responded, grok, he got shot through the neck. What are you talking about? And Grok responded, it's a meme video with edited effects to look like a dramatic shot, not a real event. Charlie Kirk is fine. He handles roasts like a pro. So again, I, I, I bring this up just because this is going to only become more of a factor in the immediate wake of shootings and terrorist attacks. And dis is people going to AIs for information about the validity of videos, about the validity of threats and what scares me is not this didn't do any damage. Right. Like, this doesn't. Didn't hurt the manhunt for the killer. It didn't like, do anything. It's just ridiculous. But let's say you've got videos of a disaster ongoing of a. Like a fucking natural disaster coming or whatever, and people are being told to leave their homes and somebody asks a fucking. And grok, hey, do I need to heal? I'll plug this video and it'll tell me if the storm's gonna hit my house or if I can stay here. People are gonna do shit like that. Like that's gonna happen.
- [171:43]
Honey German
Yeah, you're right.
- [171:45]
Michael Tura
Anyway, just as a heads up.
- [171:48]
Honey German
Oh, that's bleak. Yeah, it's pretty terrible.
- [171:52]
Michael Tura
All right, well, that's. I think all we gotta say on this.
- [171:55]
Honey German
Yeah, we'll keep updating you as we learn more. I'm sure this will keep developing over the weekend.
- [172:00]
Michael Tura
Yeah, this is going to keep being a major story. Well, I'm sure we'll do a dedicated episode on it next week.
- [172:05]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [172:07]
Garrison Davis
Something else that happened on Wednesday, the same day as the Charlie Kirk assassination was a school shooting in Colorado. Two students were shot before the shooter killed himself. Police have said, quote, we are looking at a motive. We don't have one yet. He was radicalized by some extremist network and the details of that will be down the road. And we wanted to give you that much about maybe a mindset for him. Unquote.
- [172:33]
Michael Tura
Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I guess it's. It's just a marking of what kind of shootings Americans are adjured to and not school shootings. That's business as usual. Yeah.
- [172:44]
Garrison Davis
Especially if it's just a regular white male teenager.
- [172:47]
Honey German
Yeah, yeah, we'll be kind of following that one as well to see what its online radicalization was that they.
- [172:53]
Michael Tura
Yeah, yeah.
- [172:54]
Honey German
They've already found so early, but, yeah, it's pretty tragic that two school shootings happened in a day.
- [173:01]
Garrison Davis
It was reported in multiple outlets last week that the Department of Justice was considering restricting gun ownership rights for transgender Americans in the wake of the Minneapolis Catholic school shooting last month. This was first reported by the Diggity Wire, who quoted a source inside the Justice Department saying, quote, individuals within the DOJ are reviewing ways to ensure that mentally ill individuals suffering from gender dysphoria are unable to obtain firearms while they are unstable and unwell, unquote. CNN said that their sources describe the proposal for a trans gun ban as, quote, preliminary in nature. And since then, the DOJ and The Trump administration have not made any clear statements confirming or denying this reporting. A DOJ spokesperson acknowledged these reports with a statement reading, quote, the DOJ is actively evaluating options to prevent the pattern of violence we have seen from individuals with specific mental health challenges and substance abuse disorders. No specific criminal justice proposals have been advanced at this time, unquote. Trump declined to answer a question about a possible trans gun ban last Friday. This is something right wing influencers have been advocating for years now.
- [174:11]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [174:11]
Garrison Davis
On September 5th, the NRA made a statement reading, the Second Amendment isn't up for debate. The NRA supports the Second Amendment rights for all law abiding Americans to purchase, possess and use firearms. The nraday does not and will not support any policy proposals that implement sweeping gun bans that arbitrarily strip law abiding citizens of their Second Amendment rights without due process.
- [174:34]
Michael Tura
Yep. Which you know, is consistent with the NRA's messaging for years. Because the line.
- [174:40]
Garrison Davis
The recent messaging. Yeah, definitely.
- [174:42]
Michael Tura
Well, I mean the line has been for as long as I have been a gun owner, which is 20 years now from the NRA. Yeah.
- [174:49]
Garrison Davis
After the civil rights movement.
- [174:50]
Michael Tura
Yeah. Yeah. Registration and like laws forcing people to register their guns and like gun control laws in general are that. That restrict at all access to firearms are a prelude inevitably to mass confiscation. Right. Like that has been the. That has been the line for a long time.
- [175:08]
Garrison Davis
This does not surprise me.
- [175:09]
Michael Tura
Yeah. No. The stance doesn't. The fact that they said something publicly during this does. Because the NRA has been quiet a lot when there's an issue, like for example, the shooting of Philando Castile. Right. Who was legally carrying a concealed firearm when the police murdered him in his car. They kept pretty fucking quiet about that. So I am a little surprised that they said something. But what they're saying is very consistent with other shit they've been saying.
- [175:34]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [175:34]
Garrison Davis
There's no current legal mechanism that exists for them to do this. They would have to invent or heavily alter the current way that gun rights can be taken away, which is right now through individual court cases where a judge finds an individual person, quote, unquote, mentally deficient.
- [175:51]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [175:52]
Garrison Davis
And it's highly unlikely that the gun lobby will support any policy proposals that start adding certain diagnoses to a list that excludes you from gun ownership. Because sure, you. If you add gender dysphoria, now, that might not be a huge problem to many on the right. But let's say a Democrat administration and Democrat House and Senate come into power.
- [176:15]
Robert Evans
Now.
- [176:16]
Garrison Davis
There was this precedent that you can add diagnoses to take away gun rights, which would enable adding things like depression or ptsd, which a lot of veterans have.
- [176:25]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [176:26]
Garrison Davis
And this is like the slippery slope that the NRA warns about. So it makes sense that they would be taking this stance.
- [176:32]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [176:33]
Garrison Davis
Similarly, I. I don't necessarily see a very clear path for them to, like, restrict HRT through this mechanism. Cis people, including a lot of men who own guns, take testosterone and CIS women take estrogen. So that would be a very tricky way to. To handle this. I think the.
- [176:51]
Michael Tura
The only way they could, again, would be if they try to restrict en masse, like the prescription of hormones specifically to people with gender dysphoria or trans people, which is difficult for a lot of reasons, but would provide it like a pretext for, okay, these people are now taking stuff, an illegal substance, and you can go after people with guns for that. But I feel like, I don't know how you adjudicate that, how you, like, force. Like, the federal government does not theoretically have the ability to force the medical community to say, nobody who's got gender dysphoria gets hormones ever again. Yeah.
- [177:29]
Honey German
I mean, you could maybe do something through the fda, but I don't see how you could do it just to trans people and not CIS people.
- [177:34]
Michael Tura
How. Right. Like, how. How would you keep it legal for all of Joe Rogan's friends? Yeah. That's just like through the fda. Right. I literally just don't know.
- [177:43]
Honey German
Yeah. I'm not super familiar with that.
- [177:45]
Garrison Davis
But this is obviously something that we will keep an eye on. This is. This is like a possibility that we've. We've discussed the right wanting to enact for years now, and the fact that the DOJ might even have some people in there who are doing preliminary considerations. It obviously is a worrying sign of the general position on trans rights and trans gun rights.
- [178:08]
Honey German
Yeah. For our immigration update this week, I want to start by talking about the Supreme Court Court. The Supreme Court confirmed in its case that cbp, and more pertinently, ice, can continue their policy of racial profiling. This overturned a lower court judge's order that prohibits them from stopping someone in Los Angeles based on ethnicity alone. It didn't just look at ethnicity. It said that it prohibited them from using either one or a combination of four factors which were apparent race, their accent, or their use for non English language.
- [178:39]
Dana Elkurd
Their.
- [178:39]
Honey German
Their job. There are jobs that tend to have a higher proportion of undocumented people. They get construction and some agricultural jobs and their presence at a certain place. Again, Right. Places like a Home Depot or a Farm Garrison. Smiling at how I correctly pronounce the word depot there. CBP has always been able to profile you at the border.
- [178:59]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [178:59]
Honey German
That's kind of what they do. There was a 1975 Supreme Court decision. That one was called USA versus Bridion. I think it's Brignoni, like Italian Brignoni, Ponce. That decision looked at a roving traffic stop up here in. I believe it's in San Clemente. And in that case, the CBP had stopped someone not at a checkpoint, but while sitting by the side of the highway in their vehicle. And they had done so solely based on the apparent ethnicity of the driver. That was ruled unconstitutional. And the standard that officers needed to have was, quote, reasonable, suspicious. That pertains to roving stops, which is kind of what ICE is doing in la. Right. CBP officers have also previously been sued more recently for using language as a sole basis for detention.
- [179:48]
Garrison Davis
Like if you're speaking Spanish.
- [179:50]
Honey German
Yeah, exactly. That was the case. Right. It's sudo and Hernandez vs. U.S. customs and Border Protection. That one was in Montana. The ACLU of Montana sued them. Two Spanish speaking ladies were speaking Spanish in a store. They actually said hello to a Border patrol agent in English who proceeded to detain them on the basis that not many people speak Spanish in Montana. I think the name is from Spanish, like Montana. But maybe I'm wrong. The State Department has also issued guidance that non immigrant visa applicants can now only schedule interviews in their own country. So this is a further burden for people seeking visas to come to the United States. Right. Previously you could do it at another US embassy or consulate. For instance, you know, if you were, let's say French but resident in Spain, you could apply at the at the consulate or embassy there. Right now you have to go to your country's embassy. In some cases, there are designated embassies or consular places for national states where the US has no embassy or similar presence. Like US hasn't got an embassy in Afghanistan right now for pretty obvious reasons. Right. So I believe it's Islamabad for those people. For example, Finally, I want to get on to the case of the dozens of Guatemalan children who came to the U.S. unaccompanied by adults they're related to and who the Trump admin attempted to deport over the Labor Day weekend. Sometimes I don't like the phrase unaccompanied minors because maybe they are accompanied by someone who's just not in their family. Right. Like people have taken care of them on the journey, almost certainly. And I've seen this myself. And so I don't like the idea that they're not just walking alone, but they're not with their relatives. Right. They've undertaken this journey themselves. So Judge Sparkle Sukhnanan temporarily halted their removal in the early hours of Sunday morning of Labor Day weekend. This is an extremely unusual decision.
- [181:44]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [181:44]
Honey German
But the judge decided it was warranted because not doing so would put the children in potential extreme danger. The government categorically attempted to remove these children very quickly and literally got them out of bed.
- [181:59]
Robert Evans
Right.
- [181:59]
Honey German
We got these little children out of beds in their foster homes and attempted to shove them on a plane to Guatemala. Their attorney literally ran onto the tarmac at the airport to tell flight control personnel that they were likely in violation of a court order if they allowed the plane to take off. It couldn't be more last minute than this. Right. They were literally working all night. Judge Tim Kelly now has to rule on the legitimacy of the government's claims. The claim the government makes here is that it was, quote, reuniting children with parents abroad, not deporting them. And that would mean the children don't have the statutory protections that they do if they were being deported as, quote, unquote, unaccompanied minors. Right. Previously, the government had made the claim that the children's parents wanted them to be returned. It's dropped that claim after Reuters published a Guatemalan government document which completely refutes that. None of the children's parents seem to want them to come home. So what the government is claiming here is that the Office of Refugee Resettlement, which is under hhs, is moving the children, not the Department of Homeland Security. So they're not being deported, they're being reunified with their families. Yeah, that's a pretty sketchy claim. Meanwhile, the kids are in shelters. Many of them were in long term foster care. Right. And have been now removed from that environment, and they're in shelters. Lawfare, which is an online publication, has a pretty good account of the courtroom exchange that I've linked in the notes. I also. Several people have asked about this, so I should. I should talk about it. I wanted to talk about the Hyundai plant in Georgia. I don't know what to call this. Raid. Yeah, In Georgia, I guess raid is the right word.
- [183:42]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, absolutely.
- [183:43]
Honey German
Yeah. Like, more than 300 South Korean workers were detained at the plant. They should be going home today. They were supposed to go home yesterday, but there were some delays. So far. ISIS claimed that these people were working without proper Authorization and slash or were not in the US with proper authorization. Their lawyers have claimed and they. The guardian has found leaked documents that confirm that many of them had B1 visa status. B1 is like you can do some work on a B1. It also can be just an extended term tourist visa and you can do certain jobs but not other jobs. And you still get paid at home when you're on a B1, which seems to be what these people were doing.
- [184:26]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [184:26]
Honey German
Like they can supervise construction on a B1, but you can't do construction. And it would make sense for people who are very expert in the construction of these highly technical buildings to supervise that construction.
- [184:36]
Garrison Davis
It seems that they were in the country to supervise the setting up of this car plant.
- [184:42]
Honey German
Correct. Yeah. Most South Koreans can also get ESTA visa waivers which, like, it's not exactly the same, but it's kind of a 90 day B1 visa. So there are some people who cannot. Right. Like if they have been committed of crimes and such that they'd have to go through the B1 process. But it seems very unlikely, at least that they were not in the country without any documentation because like, that would just be a strange thing to do when they can get a best of visa waiver. What's really weird about this is the state of Georgia has invested millions, if not billions in bringing this plant to Georgia. Right. It has created a significant economic boost. Something like 90% of the products that go into the car come from there. So there are lots of small businesses and local businesses that have started up to provide this factory with the goods it needs. You know, there are all the other services that come with that. Right. Like it's bought economic benefit to the region. I know the state has spent more than 300 million on improving the roads. Apparently they've deepened ports in some regions to allow larger, larger ships to arrive. It's bought in over 12 billion investment more than 8,000 jobs. It's received massive tax breaks. It's going to total over $2 billion, according to reporting that I'll link to in the notes. Yet Georgia State Police blocked off roads as part of the raid and it was Georgia Department of Corrections buses that took people away. This seems an odd choice for Kemp. Brian Kemp, right. Georgia Governor. He's not Trump's favorite. Maybe he's trying to become Trump's favorite. But previously even Republicans in Georgia have been very behind this. I mean, Garrison, you lived in Georgia for a bit, right? Like this was a thing that, yeah. The Republicans have supported as a way to revitalize a place where there wasn't much economic opportunity before.
- [186:37]
Garrison Davis
Well, and this follows the whole point of Trump's tariffs, where you're trying to bring, yeah. Manufacturing to the United States. You have these specialized workers to help supervise the, like, construction and managing of equipment to get this plant up and running. And even if you're, even if you're doing that, even if you're bringing manufacturing back to the States, somehow you still get bitten.
- [186:57]
Honey German
Yeah, Big time.
- [186:58]
Garrison Davis
Bitten by the Trump horse, I guess.
- [187:02]
Honey German
Yeah. I mean, it does sort of line up with this working closer to the Fuhrer hypothesis. Right. That you have these countervailing impulses and everyone's just trying to do things that they think Trump, Trump will like. And kind of sometimes those can directly contradict each other, as is happening here. There's not really a coherent policy platform.
- [187:20]
Garrison Davis
No, they're just so focused on trying to get like the base numbers up, like trying to get the number of deportations higher than it's ever been.
- [187:26]
Honey German
Yeah. And therefore. And you have this sort of series of impulses which motivate Trumpism, one of which is deport as many people as possible. Another is broadly bringing manufacturing jobs back to America, but not out if foreign people are helping supervise the construction. I guess, understandably, South Korea is very upset. More so, I think, because these are like middle class professionals who have been detained.
- [187:51]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [187:51]
Honey German
They appear to have negotiated a voluntary departure for these people, which it's not like a voluntary departure like you came on holiday, Disneyland and you're going home on the plane. It can still have long term consequences. But the hope there is that it won't make it harder for these people to get US Visas in the future if they have to come back. Because obviously it's going to be very hard for this company to build a plant in Georgia if they can't bring any of their staff to Georgia.
- [188:17]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [188:17]
Honey German
That is about all I have. I'm going to keep looking, especially this Georgia story, see if it, if it develops any further and if it's worthy of a whole episode. We'll, we'll do a whole episode on that.
- [188:28]
Garrison Davis
Speaking of Georgia, the long delayed Cop City RICO case has finally made some progress in the courts. I, I have been working on the final, like, scripted piece of my Cop City coverage for basically this whole summer. I've been slowly chipping away at it. Part of the reason why I have not finished that yet is because essentially the whole court case, like the 61 defendant RICO case, got reset in May. They changed judges and that has delayed an already long delayed case even further. So I was waiting to see a little bit of the results of the court case or at least get a better indication where the court case is going to go before I finish that final piece. And we're going to get that final piece out probably in the next month or two here. But I will give this small update because it's pretty substantial. This past Tuesday, September 9th, the defense successfully argued that the state Attorney General's office did not have the jurisdictional authority to prosecute the 61 defendants evidence under the state's RICO statute. This was due to simple procedural error in neglecting to first ask Governor Brian Camp if the AG's office could prosecute the case. Judge Farmer found that the AG does not have the authority to prosecute count one of the RICO indictment, which is the racketeering and conspiracy charges affecting 61 people. So without the sweeping RICO charges engulfing the 61 defendants, just five defendants would be left with count two of the indictment, the domestic terrorism charges, which the AG does have the authority to prosecute, and count three, which is the arson charge, which Judge Farmer indicated could be thrown out on a similar technicality as the racketeering and conspiracy charges. This is still heavily in flux. The prosecution is going to appeal this decision and it's unclear how this ruling will affect how the rest of the Cop City case will unfold as removal of the RICO charges kind of undermines the rest of the indictment. On Wednesday they were arguing about the constitutionality of Georgia's domestic terrorism statute, which has never been tested in courts before. So a lot of this case is currently up in the air, but this is a positive sign for the defendants at this point. One brief RFK Jr update I guess RFK Jr's soon to be released autism report from HHS is reportedly going to include the claim that use of Tylenol during pregnancy could cause autism in children.
- [191:06]
Robert Evans
Jesus Christ.
- [191:07]
Garrison Davis
This is not believed to be true by reputable medical authorities, but the report is set to release sometime in September. It was announced like months ago when RFK Jr said that by September we will finally know the cause of autism, quote unquote. And it seems the report is still churning away, but set to be released this month and it will include a few other claims which we will report on in more detail once the report is actually out. But the Wall Street Journal got this little heads up about the Tylenol inclusion in the report.
- [191:40]
Honey German
Fantastic. So I heard from somebody who is waiting on their work permit, a Kurdish woman who came to the United States to claim asylum from Turkey, from northern Kurdistan. And because she doesn't have a work permit yet, and she's going to be waiting for her work permit some time, she's asking for help to cover her basic sort of day to day expenses. And this is a thing that people often find themselves in this situation.
- [192:05]
Michael Tura
Right.
- [192:06]
Honey German
They have come here, done all the documentation, but it can take a long time to get their work permit. And without friends or family, it can be very hard for them. The website is gofundme0e. We'll have that link in the show notes as well. If you'd like to email us, you can do so. The way to do it is to reach out to coolzonetipsoton.
- [192:32]
Garrison Davis
Me.
- [192:33]
Honey German
That is an encrypted email address. All that means is that you will have to also use an encrypted email address if you'd like it to be end to end encrypted.
- [192:42]
Michael Tura
All right. And here's some ads. We're back. And I guess it's time to drop some bars about Jeffrey Epstein.
- [193:03]
Garrison Davis
Somehow Epstein has returned.
- [193:04]
Michael Tura
Yeah, that joke, it always gets old. So one of the big pieces of news this week before the thing that we started the episode with, I mean, this was the story before that happened, is that as a result of the ongoing investigation into Epstein and whether or not, you know, how involved was Trump, how involved were Democrats? Do we care that the book, the first 50 years birthday book, that that drawing that Trump is accused of having done, where he signed his name as the pubic hair of a very obviously young girl with a poem that seemed to hint at child molestation, that the whole book that Epstein had has been released to Congress and is now public. Right.
- [193:53]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee subpoenaed the Epstein birthday book from Jeffrey Epstein's estate once the estate made a statement saying that they have the book and wouldn't cooperate with a subpoena.
- [194:03]
Michael Tura
And there's a bunch of news articles summarizing it. If you want to read the thing for yourself, just Google Document, cloud Jeffrey Epstein 50th birthday book. And the whole thing is in there. Yeah, right.
- [194:15]
Honey German
I would say, like just to like have a slight diversion, I guess, between this and the Charlie Kirk shooting. Maybe you don't need to give yourself a break.
- [194:23]
Michael Tura
You don't need. I'm not saying you should. No, no, no. I just wanted to let people know where they can get the original source if they don't want to have it mediated by a media. Right.
- [194:32]
Honey German
It's always good to do that we're.
- [194:34]
Michael Tura
Going to mediate it for you now. Yeah. So it opens, as far as I can tell, the first. Well, I mean, there's. There's a list of contents. The prologue is written by Gillen Maxwell. Then there's letters from the family. Paula, Seymour and Marco, I guess, are relatives. Then it's split into Brooklyn. So there's friends of his from Brooklyn who are Warren Eisenstein neutral. I don't know who that is. Terry Kafka. Very funny that there's a Kafka involved. Dr. Steven Levy and Michael Buchols. The next section is all girlfriends. They're letters from girlfriends. All of those names have been blacked out. Out for reasons that should be obvious. The section after that is Children. God Almighty. I don't know whose kids, because this is blacked out too. But who? Boy.
- [195:17]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [195:18]
Michael Tura
And then we get to the section that is Friends. That is all the letters from Friends. And the friends are. Leon Black is on there. Bill Clinton is on there. Alan Dershowitz is on there. The dirt himself is.
- [195:30]
Garrison Davis
The Dershowitz letter is really unsettling.
- [195:34]
Michael Tura
Yeah, Donald Trump is in there. We'll get to that in a second yet. Donald Trump is in there. Obviously, these are not Morton's. Zuckerman is on there. Leslie Wexner is on there. So a number of, like, very prominent people. Unknown is at the very end. I don't know like that. That's, like, literally how the book listed it. So they just have a letter from someone who's presumably his friend but didn't put a name.
- [195:55]
Honey German
I mean, that's. That's a smart move if you're doing things which are federal crimes.
- [196:00]
Michael Tura
And then after that, you've got the letters from scientist friends of his, which include people we brought up on my episode about the bioscience company who pretends they're cloning direwolves. Marie Gel and Martin Nowak are both on here. So that's great.
- [196:13]
Honey German
Oh, good.
- [196:14]
Michael Tura
And then after that, I just noted Girlfriends is like the third group of people who had letters and all those names were blacked out. But then under Science, there's another section that's Girl Dash Friends that's longer, and all of those names are blacked out. No fucking idea what that is supposed to mean. Yeah, but upsetting.
- [196:34]
Honey German
It's not good, whatever it is.
- [196:35]
Michael Tura
Yeah. Anyway, there's some more names on there, but they're not super relevant. Gillan Maxwell's prologue is handwritten, or at least the note in front of it is handwritten. I know you will Enjoy looking through the book, and I hope you will derive as much pleasure looking through it as I did putting it together for you. Happy birthday. Love, Gillan Maxwell. So that's the prologue. One of the first pictures. I mean, the first picture in the book is Jeffrey Epstein standing around with a bunch of soldiers. They look like. I mean, I would guess from some African country. They're all in a camo pattern that's not immediately familiar to me. And, yeah, I can't fully read what it says down here. Some of the lines say something about a president and the Secret Service to greet you. I don't know who these soldiers were that Jeffrey's standing around. I kind of want to know. But it's a weird photo to start. And then immediately after that is Jeffrey. Jeffrey Epstein's Cub Scout graduation photo. They've got that in there. It's just a bunch of, like, pictures of Epstein throughout his life. Like, that's kind of how this thing opens. Before we get down to the letters. Yeah. One thing I wanted to get at. So there's. On page 57, there's a photo of Jeffrey Epstein wearing a weird shirt with a bunch of handprints on it when he was younger. That's just titled Girls on my boat. We picked up girls on beach, went out on boat. I tell them with knife in my hand to take suits off. But Warren tells me, don't worry, his name is J.N. he's just joking. He lives at so and so. I tell Mark to throw him into water. He did. No idea what the fuck that's about. But, like, a lot of it's like, that is like very upsetting stories that are handwritten crudely, I think, and often by Gillen. But yeah, it's. It's. It's like pretty deeply upsetting stuff. Okay. I do. I do kind of want to read this Bill Elkus letter. It just starts with, it's no secret that Jeffrey appreciates beautiful women that not many people know. He can create them out of thin air, as he did in Iowa in 1988.
- [198:36]
Honey German
Good to give a place and time when discussing things that are illegal.
- [198:41]
Michael Tura
Yeah. This guy says that he was managing the money of a family who lived in Fairfield, Iowa. Hog farming is a serious industry there. And many people feel there is more than a little truth in the saying that it's hard to tell the difference between the girls and the hogs in southeast Iowa.
- [198:54]
Garrison Davis
Jesus.
- [198:55]
Michael Tura
Jeffrey came to Fairfield to check in on their investig. On their investment opportunities. He asked about the nightlife, and we could Only laugh as we dropped him off at the local motel. The next morning, a group of four of us picked up Jeffrey to give him a tour of the area. At our first stop, we parked in front of a bookstore. As we were getting out of the car, a spectacular tall blonde woman suddenly came out of the store, walked directly up to Jeffrey and announced, I am new to this area. What's going on? It turns out she was a sales representative for a firm selling academic branded athletic clothing. She was literally driving through Iowa visiting local campuses. Jeffrey invited her to join us and did his magic. Within a few hours, he had invited her to return to New York with him for the weekend. Yeah, a lot of stuff like that. We should probably read Dershowitz's letter. Yeah, yeah, one sec.
- [199:39]
Honey German
Yeah, you can do that.
- [199:41]
Michael Tura
Okay, here's Dershowitz's. Who was that man with Epstein? Is the title of the letter. Inquiring minds are asking, who is that man with Epstein? Jeffrey Epstein is, of course, one of the world's most famous men. A household name throughout the planet, his picture has appeared on the COVID of every magazine in the world. Everyone knows his story, from his humble roots on Coney island to his rise to one of the most envied public figures in the western world. But what is he doing flying to Africa with an obscure former politician from Hope, Arkansas? Who is that politician? And why would Epstein have picked him for the coveted seat on his private jet? Vanity Unfair was determined to get to the bottom of this mystery man and to reveal the story behind the story. Normally, we would not pry into the private life of an obscure Arkansas politician, particularly one who has tried so hard up to now, so successfully to keep his private life to himself. But the moment this obscure man stepped under the Epstein jet, he became fair game for probing inquiry. Why would a man like Epstein, who can pick and choose his companions from princes to professors, select a flying companion from the Ozark mountains? To be sure, he was a Rhodes scholar, but we all know how easy is to get a roads if you're from Arkansas. There must be something else. Vanity Unfair decided to snoop around this obscure politician reluctantly agreed to be to an interview on the express condition that it was completely off the record. This is what he told us. And then it's blank. The letter ends it.
- [200:52]
Garrison Davis
It comes with a note. Yes, reading Dear Jeffrey, as a birthday gift to you, I managed to obtain an early version of the Vanity Unfair article. I talked them into changing the focus of from you to Bill Clinton. As you will see from the enclosed excerpt. Happy birthday and Best regards.
- [201:09]
Michael Tura
And then there's a fake vanity, unfair article.
- [201:12]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [201:13]
Michael Tura
Or cover. Yeah, that. Who is Jack the Ripper? Was it Jeffrey Epstein? Al Qaeda in South America financed by Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein stole my heart. And other courtroom dispatches. Like, really crudely animated, but yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. It's. What do you even say? Oh, there is a quote on the Vanity Fair cover attributed to Epstein that says, life is a pure flame and we live by an invisible sun within us. So I guess that's a Jeffrey Epstein original.
- [201:40]
Honey German
Wow, how profound.
- [201:41]
Garrison Davis
Before we talk about the Trump letter, there's this one other image I'd like to discuss. This, what I can only describe as a grooming themed drawing.
- [201:51]
Michael Tura
Oh, God. Yeah.
- [201:52]
Garrison Davis
Given to him as part of this birthday card depicting Jeffrey Epstein in 1983, giving balloons and a lollipop to three young children. Girls like children. Children.
- [202:03]
Michael Tura
And importantly, his pockets are turned out. Out. And the pants he's wearing are, like, patched and old. He's clearly poor in this. And in 1983, by the way, he was working as a tutor and a teacher. Like, he was teaching kids at private schools. Like, so that's what's represented here.
- [202:19]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [202:19]
Garrison Davis
The other section of the drawing is in 2003 and has Jeffrey Epstein sitting on the beach with. With four women touching his body.
- [202:28]
Michael Tura
One woman is very clearly touching his genitals and has JE tattooed on her ass.
- [202:35]
Garrison Davis
Jeffrey Epstein's jet is flying above.
- [202:38]
Michael Tura
We know it's his jet because the actual in number of his real jet is written on the side of the jet.
- [202:44]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [202:44]
Garrison Davis
And on the beach, he is on a lawn chair outside of what sort of resembles Trump's Mar A Lago resort in terms of the architectural style, the arched doorways, the tiered structure and layout of the palm trees, and the beach. This building does not match his house in Florida or his house in the Southwest or his house on the island, which appears very different with blue roofing. I'm not saying this necessarily is Mar A Lago, but if I were to try to draw Mar A Lago from memory, it might look something like this.
- [203:20]
Michael Tura
Yes.
- [203:20]
Garrison Davis
There's certainly a resemblance which is notable.
- [203:24]
Michael Tura
Yeah. We should talk about. Literally, the next photo from this is a picture of Jeffrey Epstein holding a check for $22,000 to him from Donald Trump. There's three people posing next to him. One of them is a woman whose face is blacked out. There's also another woman with her face blacked out behind them. But the man who's sitting next to the woman at what Looks like a dinner table does not have his face blacked out. I don't know why. And it says on this, Jeffrey showing early talents with money and women sells fully depreciated. And then the name of the woman who is being sold is blacked out to Donald Trump for $22,500. Shoot. Early people skills, too. Even though I handled the deal, I didn't get any of the money for the girl. So.
- [204:10]
Garrison Davis
Pretty sickening joke.
- [204:12]
Honey German
Yeah, yeah. Genuinely, like, nauseating.
- [204:15]
Michael Tura
Literally. Yeah. Like him holding up a check Donald Trump gave him for a girl.
- [204:19]
Garrison Davis
Like a fake novelty check signed by someone who's not Trump. Just someone signing Donald Trump. Not Donald Trump's signature, but people joking. It's a bit about Jeffrey selling a woman to Trump for $22,500.
- [204:33]
Honey German
What's this? A fully depreciated. Was that the phrasing used that fully?
- [204:37]
Michael Tura
That is the phrase. Yes, yes.
- [204:39]
Honey German
Yeah. It's fucking disgusting.
- [204:42]
Michael Tura
And then we get down to the original Trump letter, which we've talked about on the show. We've read it to you. This is the one where Donald says it's framed as a conversation between them. And Donald says, enigmas never age. Have you noticed that? Anyway, the only thing noteworthy about this is now we have the drawing of the woman. It's drawn around the script, and it's, I would say, pretty clearly a pubescent girl. Like, there's breasts drawn on them.
- [205:08]
Garrison Davis
The breasts do not look fully developed.
- [205:09]
Michael Tura
And they do not look. They're not large, like.
- [205:12]
Garrison Davis
No. And the position of them is higher. They look like underdeveloped breasts.
- [205:17]
Michael Tura
Yes. It looks like a drawing of a young girl, like, of a child.
- [205:22]
Garrison Davis
It's so much more creepy than anyone who, like, tried to draw what this might have looked like, has previously imagined. Like, they were all drawing conventionally attractive adults, adult female bodies. This is much more creepy.
- [205:35]
Michael Tura
Now. I. I will say it doesn't look like his signature is meant to be pubic hair here.
- [205:40]
Garrison Davis
It's. It's in a similar position. But no, this is. This is a very abstract drawing.
- [205:45]
Michael Tura
Yes.
- [205:46]
Garrison Davis
His signature is just his first name, Donald, which he signs a lot of personal notes with, not his full Donald Trump signature. Trump is maintaining that he did not sign this, that this is a forgery. He is unaware of this letter, even though. Though the signature matches other signatures from him around this time. And this just feels like a very Donald Trump thing to do.
- [206:06]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [206:07]
Garrison Davis
And is worded similarly to how he talked about women in this era. He. He now makes statements being like, I don't talk this way. All my. Everyone who knows me knows I don't talk this way. And if you watch, like, clips from Donald Trump in the early 2000s talking about women, it is this type of language. It is. It is very gross.
- [206:25]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [206:26]
Garrison Davis
Like, everyone remembers the Howard Stern clip, like, come on.
- [206:29]
Michael Tura
Right. Oh, yeah. No, I should. It's also worth noting, one of the last things in the book is recipe for, like, chocolate chip cookies. I try to figure out who put the recipe in there, but their name is blacked out. They're right under Henry Rosovsky and right above Les Wexner. I don't know who put that chocolate chip cookie recipe in here, but I might try to make those cookies.
- [206:53]
Honey German
The Epstein biscuit.
- [206:54]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [206:55]
Honey German
I wouldn't eat those.
- [206:56]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [206:57]
Garrison Davis
A few other things before we close this episode related to Epstein. On September 5, House Speaker Mike Johnson told reporters that Trump was actually a secret FBI informant tasked with taking down Jeffrey Epstein.
- [207:13]
Honey German
No, I hadn't heard.
- [207:14]
Michael Tura
He did a great job.
- [207:15]
Honey German
Yeah.
- [207:15]
Michael Tura
Well, I'm saying that what Epstein did is a hoax. It's a terrible, unspeakable evil. He believes that in himself. When he first heard the rumor, he.
- [207:22]
Mia Wong
Kicked him out of Maravago.
- [207:23]
Michael Tura
He was an FBI informant to try to take this stuff down. The President knows and has great sympathy for the women who suffered these unspeakable harms. It's detestable to him. He and I have spoken about this as recently as 24 hours ago.
- [207:33]
Honey German
There should be documents that could. That could corroborate that. One would imagine.
- [207:37]
Michael Tura
One would think.
- [207:38]
Garrison Davis
On September 8th, Mike Johnson walked back his FBI informant comments, telling reporters he was referring to what Epstein victims attorneys has said that Trump was, quote, willing to help law enforcement to go after the guy who was a disgusting child abuser, sex trafficker. All the allegations. That's what they heard. I don't know if I use the right terminology, but that's common knowledge and everybody knows that. I was repeating what has been common knowledge for a long time. The President was helpful in trying to get Epstein for the law enforcement to go after Epstein, Unquote. Great stuff from Mike Johnson.
- [208:11]
Michael Tura
Sure.
- [208:12]
Garrison Davis
A day later, White House Press Secretary Carolyn Levitt confirmed that Trump was not, in fact, an FBI informant. One other weird Epstein story from this week is how the DOJ has been beefing with James o' Keefe's Project Veritas.
- [208:29]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [208:30]
Garrison Davis
Project Veritas did a operation against a DOJ employee in which they recorded him saying this. Those files do exist.
- [208:40]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [208:40]
Garrison Davis
Donaldson files is a page of a File.
- [208:42]
Robert Evans
They'll redact every Republican or conservative person in those files.
- [208:49]
Michael Tura
Leave all the liberal Democratic people in those files.
- [208:52]
Garrison Davis
I think they visited that Maxwell person.
- [208:55]
Michael Tura
Yeah.
- [208:57]
Robert Evans
Got transferred to a minimum security person.
- [208:59]
Michael Tura
Too, recently, which is against BOP housing.
- [209:03]
Mia Wong
Because she, as she's a convicted sex.
- [209:06]
Robert Evans
Winner, they're offering her something to keep her relationship. That was the Acting Deputy Chief of.
- [209:11]
Garrison Davis
The Office of Enforcement Operations, Joseph Schnit.
- [209:14]
Robert Evans
Telling a stranger about the FBI and DOJ's handling of the Epstein files.
- [209:21]
Garrison Davis
The DOJ responded to O' Keefe saying, quote, joseph Schnit had no role in the department's internal review of Epstein materials. He has confirmed as much to leadership, and we plan on publishing his written statement to that effect when we have it in his words. The comments, comments he made were based on, quote, what he learned in the media. And he has, quote, no knowledge of the circumstances surrounding Ms. Maxwell other than what was reported in the news, unquote. And then Schnit used the Department of Justice X account to post a what it could be described as like an Apple Notes apology statement with 30% battery displayed on his phone. When he talks about where he talks about meeting a, quote, woman named Skyler on Hinge, a dating app, in July 2025. Her profiles no longer findable. We had two dates. She gave no clues that she was a reporter or recording our dates. Had I clue, the first date would have ended immediately and there would have never been a second one. My profile indicated I did, quote, unquote, government work, but did not specify for which agency. I never discussed what I do at doj. The comments I made were my own personal comments on what I've learned in the media and not from anything I've done or learned via work.
- [210:38]
Honey German
Incredible.
- [210:39]
Garrison Davis
The United States government, everybody.
- [210:41]
Honey German
Yeah. And James o' Keefe out there with the journalism thirst trap. I guess. I wonder if it's. Is it a one party consent? This is in dc, Right?
- [210:50]
Michael Tura
I don't believe DC is one party consent.
- [210:53]
Honey German
Yeah, I would be shocked.
- [210:54]
Garrison Davis
I'm not sure how o' Keefe pulls all this stuff up off legally.
- [210:58]
Michael Tura
He could get in trouble for this one.
- [210:59]
Robert Evans
Yeah.
- [211:00]
Honey German
My understanding would be, just to be clear, for people who aren't in on the jargon, like in most states of the Union, I think you need both people's consent to record a conversation. You could argue, I guess he didn't have a reasonable expectation of privacy sitting out there, but I think this is very clearly a clandestine recording.
- [211:17]
Michael Tura
Oh, wait. No, no, no. Sorry. D.C. d.C. Is a one party consent area.
- [211:21]
Honey German
Damn.
- [211:21]
Michael Tura
Okay.
- [211:22]
Garrison Davis
Oh, there you go.
- [211:23]
Honey German
Wow. Oh, okay. Yeah. Did not know that.
- [211:26]
Michael Tura
Yep. So he's safe.
- [211:28]
Honey German
Yeah, I guess if that date was in D.C. you got a lot of.
- [211:31]
Michael Tura
If the date was in D.C. yeah.
- [211:32]
Honey German
A lot of jurisdictions around there bumping up, but yeah, that's surprising.
- [211:35]
Michael Tura
No, he's good.
- [211:36]
Garrison Davis
All right, well, I think that's all we have for this week, which is a lot. This was a massive news week. This is an extra long episode, but sometimes that happens.
- [211:47]
Honey German
Congratulations on making it this far.
- [211:49]
Michael Tura
Yeah. And may every day be a new wonderful secret, as no Donald Trump told Jeffrey Epstein.
- [211:57]
Honey German
Stop him. Just turn it off.
- [211:59]
Garrison Davis
We reported the news.
- [212:02]
Robert Evans
We reported the news.
- [212:08]
Michael Tura
Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen here.
- [212:15]
Dana Elkurd
Here is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for It Could Happen here listed directly in Episode Descriptions.
- [212:31]
Michael Tura
Thanks for listening.
- [212:39]
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Dana Elkurd
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Dana Elkurd
When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like, snooze.
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Garrison Davis
We ended up talking for hours and I was like, this girl is my best friend.
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