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- [00:00]
Emily Simpson
This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human
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Garrison Davis
and the winner of the iHeart podcast award is. You can decide who takes home the
- [00:09]
James Stout
2026 iHeart Podcast Awards Podcast of the Year by voting at iHeartPodcastAwards.com now through February 22nd. See all the nominees and place your
- [00:19]
Emily Simpson
vote at iHeartPodcastAwards dot com Audible is
- [00:22]
Garrison Davis
a proud sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts and originals all in one easy app. Audible. There's more to imagine when you list Listen. Sign up for a free trial@Audible.com hey everyone, it's Emily Simpson and Shane Simpson
- [00:39]
Mick
from the Legally Brunette Podcast.
- [00:41]
Emily Simpson
Each week we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie or you
- [00:49]
Garrison Davis
still need to wrap your head around
- [00:50]
Emily Simpson
the Diddy verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers, we're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes.
- [01:00]
Garrison Davis
Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:06]
Giorgio
The world is always changing.
- [01:07]
James Stout
Now you can track what's likely to happen and trade on the outcome with Kalshi. From politics and economics to breaking financial news, Kalshi markets show real time probabilities of what will unfold and you can make money on what you think will happen. The State of the Union is Tuesday. Will new policies be announced?
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Garrison Davis
What will Trump say?
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James Stout
Who shows up? Trade outcomes live on Kalshi available in all 50 states for a limited time. Download the Kalshi app and use code iheart to get $10 when trade $10 K A L S H I Kalshi
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Garrison Davis
Trade on anything before we had ATT business wireless coverage, our delivery GPS wasn't the most reliable. Once our driver had to do a 14 point turn to get back on route.
- [01:45]
Emily Simpson
A 14 point turn.
- [01:47]
Garrison Davis
An influencer even livestreamed the whole thing.
- [01:50]
Emily Simpson
Not good for business.
- [01:52]
Garrison Davis
Now with AT and T Business wireless routes are updating on the fly and
- [01:56]
Giorgio
deliveries are on time. And the influencer did get us 53 new followers though.
- [02:00]
Garrison Davis
AT&T business Wireless Connecting Changes Everything.
- [02:09]
Emily Simpson
Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the week that just happened is here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going to be nothing new here for you. But you can make your own decisions.
- [02:35]
Garrison Davis
Welcome to It Could Happen Here. I'm Garrison Davis. Last Friday I teamed up with Lance from the Canadian based politics show the Serfs to talk about the tragic events of last week in Tumblr Ridge, British Columbia. On Tuesday, February 10, an 18 year old named Jessie Van Ruitzilar killed her mother and stepbrother in their home, then took two guns and went to Tumbler Ridge Secondary School where she killed five students, one teacher, and finally herself. Two other kids were critically injured with gunshot wounds, but have survived. The shooter did attend Tumbler Ridge Secondary School years ago, but dropped out for the past three to five years. It's kind of unclear. Jesse identified as a transgender girl. Tumblr Ridge is a very small town with just 2,400 residents in northeastern British Columbia. This was the worst school shooting in Canada since 1989. The sequence of events during this incident were very similar to the Lelouch shooting in Canada 10 years ago where the gunman killed two family members at home before going to a school. During our conversation, Lance and I discuss the spread of misinformation, how the online right has tried to weaponize the deaths of these people for their own political agenda, and how the shooters online activity shows a growing fascination with mass shootings this past year. Here's that conversation.
- [04:13]
James Stout
That I'm sure everyone knows shows that right now Canada's a nation in mourning. And I also did probably want to start this out by reading the names of the deceased because it's one of the things that the families have been asking for. And so the victims from the Tumblr Ridge Secondary School shooting are Abel wanza, who was 12, Ezekiel Schofield who was 13, Kylie Smith who was 12, Zoe Benoit who was 12, Takaria Lampert, who was 12, Shenda Evi Gwanda Duran who's 39, Emmett Jacobs who was 11 and Jennifer Jacobs who was 39 years old. So I guess I'll start with Garrison. How have you been processing and or tracking the story since it happened?
- [04:55]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, pretty horrifying incident that happened last Tuesday. Very soon after it happened there was like right wing narratives trying to use the deaths of these children and family members for their own political agenda. And I started tracking that pretty soon and then also trying to like verify as much information about the actual circumstances of the shooting and who the shooter was, you know, around that same time. Things have gotten pretty clear now a few days later. But I mean it's, it's been a nightmare to sort through all this stuff, especially all of like the political opportunism being done by, you know, a variety of right wing influencers and, you know, quote unquote, news agencies.
- [05:40]
James Stout
Yeah, I was doing the same thing. Like right after the event happened, I noticed that there was a lot of, for people who don't know right wing online operatives like the Pleb reporter and Juno News and Cat Canada, and these are all very popular right wing social media accounts on Twitter in Canada, or at least based in Canada for their origins. But then they usually get retweeted, quote, tweeted and amplified eventually by the far right in the US which has a very corrosive effect. And I think. But like, by the time we're talking about this right now, I saw that like Donald Trump Jr. The son of the President of the United States, is doing an entire, I assume, blowed out of his mind rumble special on the shooting. Just uniquely going after trans people the entire time. Like for, for a small little town of what, like just over 2,400 people. It has to be beyond, like a shell shock to first have to go through something this horrifying and then deal with the international right wing apparatus.
- [06:39]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. And they're going through the motions. Right. Like, this is not the first time, this won't be the last time that they try to do something like this. It's not getting as much traction, I think, as it used to. There's a lot of other stuff happening in the States around the time, like news was breaking in the States about the shooting that happened. It was, it was Wednesday during Pam Bondi's Epstein hearing. So there's been a lot of other stuff happening. So I don't think they've gotten as much like concentrated attention on this as some of the online right has wanted to, or, you know, like the Matt Walsh types, lips of TikTok, that sort of thing. But they're definitely giving it a go. It's gross, right? It's, it's gross to use the deaths of all these people.
- [07:19]
James Stout
Yeah, absolutely. Not to mention the way the entire thing's been framed is abhorrent. I mean, obviously, you know, we're, we're speaking from a perspective where we don't want to vilify an entire group based on one like, you know, horrifying monsters actions kind of thing. Right. Because that doesn't happen in the other direction for CIS people. And that's what you got to be quick to point out. But I feel like the Matt Walshes and the Libs of Tick Tock have. And it's a horrifying thing to say, but like they're perfect narrative, right? It's, it's, it's kind of like in a twisted way, something they're actually quite pleased about. It almost seems like.
- [07:54]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, they make a lot of money off this.
- [07:56]
James Stout
Yes, yeah, exactly.
- [07:57]
Garrison Davis
They profit off of human suffering and they try to spread as much of it as possible.
- [08:02]
James Stout
The first aspect I was trying to look at this story from was what it was early, what are the families themselves asking for? What does the, you know, town need in terms of support? That kind of stuff. And you move on from that. And then immediately it was, well, now there's just an overwhelming, very apparent right wing mechanism gearing up and it's going to be kind of devastating for a country like Canada that doesn't really have maybe or is. Isn't as used to having the eyes of the world from the transphobic, you know, turf side of the Internet.
- [08:31]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about Jennifer Strang, the mother of the shooter. Despite being a self described, you know, conservative libertarian, Jesse's mother publicly supported her transition made posts in support of trans people. In July 2024, she shared a LGBTQ Pride graphic reading good people don't spend their time harassing marginalized communities and wrote, quote, as a conservative leaning libertarian who lives in the north and loves living in a small town, I really hope the hate I see online is just bored old people and not true hatred. Do better and educate yourself before spewing bullshit online makes you look dumb.
- [09:09]
Mick
Evolve.
- [09:10]
Garrison Davis
I normally don't say anything. I normally don't go on Shitbook to see the keyboard warriors and I know I can't control or shield my kids from everything, but please, for the love of fuck, can you get your shit together so we don't have to bring our kids up in a world full of hatred. Do you have any idea how many kids are killing themselves over this kind of hate? Please stop the bullshit. Unquote. So pretty soon after this shooting, based on an early active shooter report describing the shooter as a quote, unquote female in a dress with brown hair, online right wing accounts started trying to identify who this possible shooter was by looking at trans people in the area of Tumblr Ridge, they misidentified one person who is a relative of, of the shooter, but put out photographs of them claiming that that she was the shooter. This person is now having to like lock down all of their accounts and is scared to go outside due to the horrific wave of harassment they're facing.
- [10:04]
James Stout
What is wild about that aspect of the story is, I've seen, I've seen accounts like the pleb reporter who popularized, you know, publishing that photo. But I've, I think Rachel Gilmour is the one who also pointed out that there was the misuse of a photo in an actual CBC radio broadcast image thumbnail, which is also kind of just shocking to hear because these are again innocent people who might have targets now put on their back because they're being directly identified as some kind of a mass shooter or monster. And then in addition to that, like now I'm wondering how much of this is going to be something that they're capable of containing, especially considering that it's been still proliferated. Like I saw an account called BRICS News, which I assumed would be about BRICs, the economic lines between a number of different nations, and instead was publishing the false photo of again a completely innocent person. And this had like, I think at the time, 17,000 likes, you know, hundreds of thousands of impressions. It's, it's really dangerous.
- [11:01]
Garrison Davis
I mean, yeah, I mean that's part of the intent here. You know, places like Kiwi Farms trailblaze a lot of this quote unquote early research. And the point is to cast as large of an as possible to damage as many trans people as they can using horrific events like this. The cruelty is, is part of, part of the point. And you know, blame gets laid at a, you know, a combination of like trans enabled mental delusion, SSRIs and hormones saying that those things are causing the shooting. Well before we have any evidence to determine what types of medications someone could be on, who they actually are, or any possible motive. One kind of crude thing that I've seen a lot is right wing accounts like, you know, end Wokeness, allegedly Jack Posovic saying that the shooter quote, unquote, gunned down 35 kids to make it seem like, you know, massacre of such a, such a large magnitude. Right. The number of kids that have been killed and other people as well obviously is like horrific. 35 people were not shot in this shooting though. There was 25 people with non gunshot related injuries as a result of the incident. And that is the number that people are framing as being, you know, total number of people shot, which just isn't true. And then they also very quickly start sharing, you know, unsourced graphs. I'm sure you've seen stuff like this, right, saying that, you know, trans girls make up the highest demographic of mass shooters per capita. You see, these things go all over the place.
- [12:26]
James Stout
By the world's Richest man. He's, he's sharing that a lot online right now.
- [12:31]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, I mean, and this is, this has been a thing for the past three years, right. This is something they've been doing well before any, any actual incident can be even used to create data. They've, they've created fake graphs that show this. There's factors that get people to, you know, believe these sorts of things. Right. There is certainly a selection bias that determines which types of shootings gets like a lot of media attention. And the other issue that I've talked about a lot in, in previous shootings is there's a lot of different definitions of a mass shooting. You know, mass shooting versus a mass killing versus, like a school shooting. Right. All these are different terms. Even the term school shooting can be used to refer to a variety of very different incidents revolving around gun violence. Right. There can be gang related violence at a school. There can be shots fired as an escalation of a physical fight. Students bringing guns to school and accidentally firing them, which happens more often than what you would think, like as someone who just brings a gun in their backpack, not intending to do a shooting, but it accidentally fires in the school. This happens multiple times a year. There's, you know, shootings at.
- [13:35]
James Stout
I didn't know that.
- [13:35]
Garrison Davis
Dormitories, right. Those get counted as mass shootings at like, you know, a college dormitory. It's interpersonal violence. There's, you know, neighborhood shootings that affect, but aren't targeting the school, like drive by shootings or even something like the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which some people have categorized as a school shooting because it was on a college campus. Right. But these are all very different types of violence. Right. These aren't like, you know, intentional, you know, mass shooting violence where someone who's trying to shoot as many people as possible and then usually kill themselves. Right. That's, that, that's, that's a different thing than a lot of these other, other things that I mentioned, but they all get lumped under this one label of school shooting. And all these different, you know, data collection criteria could produce very different stats. And depending whether you're measuring your injuries versus deaths, you know, specific weapons like knives versus guns and how many years are being sampled or if there's connections to other violent activity, there could be very, very different results in how you categorize, you know, mass killings or mass shootings. The mass killing database has 631 incidents in the United States since 2006, of which about one to three. It's kind of unclear. One to three are done by people who have been reported as transgender, which is an underrepresented sample size. The violence project has one transgender mass shooter in their database of about 195 mass shootings. And according to the Gun Violence Archive, which also measures gunshot injuries, not just Deaths, fewer than 1 in 1,000 mass shooters over the past decade have been identified as transgender. According to a Gallup poll for 2023, about 2% of Gen Z identify as transgender. And if you also count, like, non binary people, it brings it up to 4%. But you can have all the stats on hand. But that doesn't really do very much. Once you're arguing about statistics and, like, semantics of terms when kids have died, you're kind of already starting to lose the emotional battle. Right. Like, I can say all of that, but, like, that's not actually going to be helpful. Right. Like, fact checking doesn't work to dissuade disinformation. And when you're dealing with such an emotionally charged incident, like kids being murdered, having to read off a paragraph like that just doesn't. Doesn't really help. Right. Parents just want to know why this is happening and what can be done to stop it. And all they know is that, you know, since 2023, there, there has been a series of shootings done by young people who either attempted to or did transition genders. Right. That. That's what they know. And they want to know, you know, why is this happening and how to stop it. Yeah.
- [16:01]
James Stout
One of the things that I've tried to push up against, because you are getting a lot of Americans who are pushing that narrative right now, is to point out, because I've seen people saying, like, this epidemic of trans mass violence is a scourge. And I think they're blending Canada and the US into one nation. Because I was like, just to be clear, this is the first mass shooting committed by a trans person in Canadian
- [16:22]
Mia Wong
history ever, and there's a lot of
- [16:25]
Garrison Davis
trans people in British Columbia.
- [16:26]
James Stout
Yeah, well, across the country. I mean, it's one of those things from, like, this.
- [16:30]
Emily Simpson
This.
- [16:30]
James Stout
This is not an epidemic of which like, oh, my God, you. You have a high probability of being hurt by a trans person in your life. It couldn't be further from the truth. Right. Like, the stats are still overwhelmingly in the other direction. You're more likely to be the victim of physical or sexual violence if you're a trans person than if you're a CIS person.
- [16:46]
Mick
Yeah.
- [16:46]
Garrison Davis
No, that is another. Another problem here is, is, yeah, a lot of these, you know, data collection tools aren't counting balancing Canada. These are all stuff based in the States. But for, you know, the culture war, it's. It's not that hard to, you know, move that border up 500 miles to include things that are happening in Canada in a rhetorical sense for, you know, your Matt Walshes, your end wokenesses, even, you know, your Fox News anchors.
- [17:09]
Emily Simpson
Right, yeah.
- [17:20]
Garrison Davis
This thing that people are talking about on the right, about this, you know, epidemic of trans violence, what this has also done is created like a counter reaction from trans influencers to whenever something horrible happens like this, to blame these other groups, like, you know, 09A or 764. Right. This has become something that's also now been very consistent. You know, there is a kernel of truth in this. This is based on a real thing that has happened before. But the invocation of this has often, you know, expanded greatly beyond its actual.
- [17:50]
James Stout
Like, can you explain it for people who are completely unfamiliar? Because I remember like even a year ago I had to start reading up. I'm like, what is, what, what is all this Satanic cult rituals with participation requirements of self harm and all this stuff?
- [18:02]
Garrison Davis
Like, okay, yeah, so you see a lot of people now when there's news coverage, you know, a lot of trans people who have, you know, accounts online, you know, talking about how, quote, unquote, satanic Nazi pedophiles have groomed another vulnerable queer kid into doing a mass shooting. There's a viral tweet on, a semi viral tweet on Twitter right now that reads, quote, fuck anyone talking about trans and not atomwaffen. This includes the cops and the media, like the CBC and BBC, unquote. So, yeah, what, what are they talking about here? You know, Adam Waffen, Satanic Nazi pedophile cults. I, I said, you know, 09A764, right. These are originally, you know, 09A is this older group. But as, as contemporary Internet lore, it is seen as this neo Nazi occultic organization that grooms people into sexual exploitation or into doing violence, like mass shootings. 764 is a extortion ring that operated mainly on Telegram and Discord, which tried to get kids to do self harm, produce blackmailing.
- [19:06]
James Stout
Is that true?
- [19:08]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, they're active across a lot of places, but like the organizing hubs were on discord and telegram and they, you know, attempted to get child sexual abuse material out of these kids and then use that to blackmail them to get even more material and then also encouraging self harm and acts of violence. These have been Real groups, historically, they are getting cracked down upon pretty heavily, at least in 764's case. 09A is not really a real group anymore, arguably, but it exists as like lore. And there, there has been no instances of 7, 6, 4 affiliated people doing public acts of violence. So in this case there's been people who have, you know, trans people online or, you know, allies who have, have said that this shooting is another one of these instances where these online groups of, you know, Nazis and pedophiles have, you know, groomed someone into doing violence. And they, they have produced some evidence for this. There was a Twitter account that allegedly belonged to the shooter that had a profile picture of a Sonnenrad on top of a trans flag as well as the face of the Christchurch shooter. This account had posts glorifying white supremacist mass killers and promoting the idea of creating a white homeland in the Pacific Northwest. This was a Canada based account, but in reality this was actually just another Nazis account who changed their username to match that of the Tumblr Ridge shooter. And this was an attempt to troll people and just spread disinformation. And this even fooled the adl, whose research standards have dropped dramatically the past three years. But a few days ago, the ADL put out an article where they credited posts made by this Twitter account to the tumblrwood shooter and claimed that a quote, unquote, preliminary investigation showed that the shooter had showed interest in white supremacy. But this was, this was not there real account. This was just someone who also is a fan of mass shootings like the shooter was, as we'll soon discuss. But this was someone who was just trying to troll other, other, you know, researchers on, on Twitter and, and see how far their disinformation can spread. This is the, the consequence of an organization like the ADL doing preliminary research based on Kiwi Farms posts and not actually verifying the information.
- [21:20]
James Stout
I mean, the fact that I think they're actively pursuing Hasan Piker more than Elon Musk is pretty much all I need to know in terms they're prioritizing, you know, the search for racism.
- [21:31]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, I can get into the actual like online footprint of the shooter, which we, we do have a decent idea of actually before you get to that,
- [21:40]
James Stout
because I think that's what everyone is kind of interested in. I just want to wrap up that last part. So just to be clear, when you were mentioning those groups, you know, 764 etc. There is no actual history of the shooter having been into Nazi, the Occults, that kind of stuff.
- [21:57]
Garrison Davis
Based on their presence, they, they have not been active in like specific 764 communities or have showed interest in like, you know, white supremacy, neo Nazism or you know, the, the occult pedophile Nazism of 09A. This is not observable in the online footprint that they have left. Which is, which is not to say the online footprint they have left is, you know, normal and good. If anything, it does point towards, you know, significant factors that are causing kids to do shootings like this. And we can trace it to a number of shootings that have happened. But the 098764 thing is more so like a meme at this point that people similarly deploy the same way that the right deploys. You know, this epidemic of trans violence. This has become like a counter meme to say that every time a trans person does something bad, it's actually the fault of 098 and 764.
- [22:49]
Mick
Right.
- [22:50]
James Stout
Because there has been incidences in the past that could point towards that.
- [22:54]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, there could be, there could be suggestions in the past. And certainly when 764 was more active years ago, I mean a lot of the kids they were grooming for child sexual abuse material were a lot of queer kids because those kids are uniquely vulnerable and are looking for community. But I mean that is the majority of kids affected by 764 are people who have been groomed into self harm or producing child sexual abuse material to circulate among like the organizers of these groups.
- [23:24]
James Stout
So it turns out that there isn't really a connection in those two directions. You're correct in pointing out there's a counter push. Like I did the same thing with Charlie Kirk. Right. I remember when the first image of the Charlie Kirk shooter being in a groiper Pepe the Frog style jumper, I was like, oh, this has to be a groiper.
- [23:40]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [23:40]
James Stout
Like that's immediately where my brain went because they do have a history of targeting that community. So you can understand why there's a pushback.
- [23:47]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, and I think people feel like they understand ideological violence easier, like, like violence caused by political ideology and are uncomfortable with the increasing amount of horrific public violence that is seemingly linked to no political ideology. It's much more like, like nihilistic and scattershot. And that's like uncomfortable. It's harder to understand like the causal forces producing that rather than just saying, you know, oh, it's another Nazi. Right. That's, that's easy. And at this point, sadly easy thing for people to understand because of, you know, a very high number of neo Nazi mass shootings that happened in the past 10 years. But it is not 2017 anymore and the circumstances that are inducing shootings like this have, have changed.
- [24:30]
James Stout
Can you talk about that? Because like you said, it's a conversation that people don't want to have. Is it because we are uncomfortable with the conversation itself or because there's not enough information available yet to truly understand what is leading these super online shooter slash nihilistic, you know, deep in the memes style stuff?
- [24:48]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, I think a mix of both. It is both an emerging phenomenon so people have to observe it for a certain amount of time to see the pattern. And then also it's, it's uncomfortable and it's, it sucks. It sucks to be in these places and like, and like look at all this stuff, right? Like I've been, the past few days I've been looking at you know, these horrible forum posts and reading about all kinds of like you know, bad stuff and it sucks and no one wants to do that. So I think it's a mix of factors. But yeah, I do want to talk about that. That's the kind of the. I have kind of like two sections that get into that. The first one based on her actual online footprint. The second one on more like you know, basic like societal forces that I think is. Is getting people to go so far to the social like margins that pushes them to places like where the shooter hung out online. So in 2021 Jesse's mom shared a link to her kids YouTube channel where quote he posts about hunting, self reliance guns and stuff he likes to do unquote. This YouTube account shared the username as Jesse's Reddit account. The earliest posts from 2019 were about like Roblox Gaming. Then in 2021 Jesse started posting about firearms and shared a photo of her Chinese SKS which is kind of like an AK47 style gun which she used for hunting. Around 2023 she started posting about quote unquote starting MTF transition soon and as well as her phobia of needles. The police say that she started transitioning before this but the earliest indication we have from her online activity puts this around 2023. On other posts on R trans she asked for advice on girls clothing, what to expect from HRT and talked about body dysmorphia. Her very last gender related post on Reddit still refers to herself as pre hrt. Jesse made a single post on R slash transguns in October 2023 sharing a video of her firing a Desert Eagle handgun at a shooting range. At this point around like the end of 2023, almost all of her posts switch to being about psychedelic drug abuse. Asking how to vape or smoke weed without leaving a smell in the house, being scammed by an online psychedelic seller in Canada, and asking if you can get high off drinking the urine from a drug addict. And asked on Reddit if it's safe to do 5 Meo DMT alone. After she returned from the quote unquote psych ward, she was admitted to a psychiatric facility after attempting to burn down her home with a count of aerosol while on 3 grams of mushrooms. Jesse also said that she was diagnosed with ADHD, autism, major depressive disorder and OCD, and was prescribed a mix of different SSRIs as well as an antipsychotic for sleep. In one comment on one of her multiple Reddit posts asking about trying 5 Meo DMT after being arrested for arson, she wrote, quote, it is a wonder I'm still alive, yet I am. Speaks volumes about how much I've been trying to keep breathing when all my effort goes towards keeping alive. Unquote. Her Reddit activity drops off in April of 2024. This could mean that she just stopped using Reddit around then, or that she has deleted a whole bunch of posts. She did scrub some of her online activity prior to the shooting. Now, in the aftermath of the shooting, the police have said that they made multiple mental health related visits to the shooter's home the past few years and had previously confiscated guns from the home. But the owner of the guns, it's unclear who exactly, successfully petitioned for their return. And Jesse did have a miner's firearms license, but that expired in 2024. It's unclear if the guns that were confiscated were the same ones used in the shooting. Jesse has posted a number of different photos of guns and we still don't know which exact ones were used. We just know that there was a long gun and a handgun recovered. So though the shooter's like Reddit activity ceases in early 2024, her online presence moved to darker corners of the Internet, which demonstrate a declining mental well being and a growing fascination with mass shootings. The past year, Jesse was active on an Internet forum called Watch People Die, which is pretty much what it sounds like. It's a website to host footage of real life Gore.
- [29:11]
James Stout
Yeah, I was like, is that what it sounds like?
- [29:12]
Emily Simpson
It is.
- [29:13]
James Stout
Okay, all right.
- [29:14]
Garrison Davis
You know, like snuff. Like real Gore is hosted there and shared as well, as a lot of, you know, like edits of mass shooter footage of people filming themselves doing mass shootings that then circulates. This forum is, is way more of like a social orbit around this recent wave of mass shootings than 764 is. And now there is, there is some crossover, you know, There is some 764 people who are also, you know, active on this form. People who used to be 764, because that, that group is also, you know, not really what it used to be. But this form is its own thing rather than being linked to, you know, explicit Nazi groups, you know, the occultic 09A or the child's exploitation ring 6764. The shooter's verifiable online footprint suggests much more of a nexus of involvement with what I've been calling the school shooter fandom. They call it TCC or the true crime community. And the past two years we've seen an increase in shootings based on this, like Neo Columbiner variety, right? People doing copycats of other school shootings. The Abundant Life Christian school shooting in December 2024 by Columbine cosplayer Natalie Samantha Rucknow, who the right falsely labeled as trans. There was also the Catholic school shooting in August 2025 by Robin Westman, who did at one point attempt gender transition but later regretted it and originally planned to attack an LGBTQ music venue. Westman was similarly obsessed with mass killers and wrote the name of Rupnow on one of their rifles. Last April, a 22 year old man in Florida was arrested for threatening to commit a mass shooting on Discord. The FBI believes that he was in communication with Samantha Rupnow prior to her shooting and they both discussed with each other plans for their mass killing attacks. In September 2025, a 16 year old named Desmond Holley shot two kids before killing himself at Evergreen High School in Colorado. He also idolized Samantha Rupdow, replicated her selfies and was active on the same forum, Watch People Die, that Rupnow herself was active on. So Jesse was on this forum, but Jesse also displayed other traits similar of the TCC group. Jesse created a mass shooting simulator game on Roblox which was set in a mall where you, you know, act out a shooting, killing people in the mall. I'll talk a little bit about this. This forum specifically. Now, right, like this forum essentially exists to desensitize people to extremely violent content that glorifies mass killings. Jesse's very first comment on Watch People Die was on a compilation video of Mass shooter footage. And she wrote, quote, I appreciate this post. She also commented on another thread of mass shooting footage, quote, I love these first person perspective type videos. When a shooter records his or her own actions, it's always heat, unquote. The most worrying comment is something that, you know, if police were aware of, should have, should have been your cause to prevent this from happening. Came about five months ago in a thread on, on watch people die about the psychology of watching gore. She wrote, quote, I find it addictive. It's hard not to watch violent content. I'm just drawn to it. I don't think much of it though. To say it doesn't affect me is likely naive. I'm sure maybe subconsciously it does, but it just doesn't feel like a big deal. I'm drawn to substances too. It's easy to get high and just zone out into videos of this stuff. Does it impact my mental health? Eh, mine's probably already fucked. I tried to stay away from watching this type of thing before because it really sucks me in and it's a massive useless time dump. But I never really saw any benefit. I think the R words in the comment section are more bothersome mentally than the videos. So I try just not to interact with dorks. XD and these sorts of, these, these types of sentiments are not like uncommon among people who regularly engage with this type of content.
- [33:19]
James Stout
I think it's an unusual thing to ask you, but at this point it almost seems as if like the two biggest things that are often blamed for mass shooting that I have to push up against and I have been doing in my whole life, drugs and in the other case, hyper online radicalization. Right. The history that you're painting here kind of seems like someone who needed a variety of help.
- [33:41]
Garrison Davis
100%. I'll reiterate that in like a sec.
- [33:45]
James Stout
Okay.
- [33:45]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. I mean as I was reading this, this reminded me a little bit. There was a shooting a few years ago at a fourth of July parade. The Highland park mass shooting. The sort of like writing that Jesse did in his post reminds me a bit of the writing done by this other mass shooter. Talking about like getting like sucked into like, like violent content or this like this like idea of like it like beckons you further into the concept. It's like almost like hypnotic. Very similar writing done by this other, other shooter. So one other post I'll reference that she made on this forum was a video of a father hanging himself in front of his children. And she claimed that her stepdad attempted the same thing. Trying to kill himself in front of her when, you know, she was just a little kid. And she wrote, quote, I wish his bitch ass would have died on the noose then and there. Probably better than beating your kids, unquote. So obviously, you know, this person had like long standing issues that at certain points seemed like, better, right? Like around 2021, they seem to be doing better, right? They were, they were making, you know, YouTube content about, about guns and hunting and felt like they had some more of like a, had more of a stable social outlet. And then around 2023 with this like abuse of psychedelic drugs leading to this mass shooter obsession. It's like a pretty clear picture of like a mental spiral. Two months before Jesse's own shooting, she did visit the Watch People Die profile for Samantha Ruppenow. And if we're going to talk about like causal factors, right, and especially like in reference to, you know, this idea that, you know, parents have where, you know, there, there has been a sequence of, of trans people doing shootings. You can argue about, you know, the per capita percent rates or like stats again, but that doesn't go so far. But at a certain point, I mean, we have to all be comfortable or maybe comfortable is the wrong word. But we have to like, you know, realize that like as more people, you know, transition, right? Gender is, is not this like immutable thing. As more people attempt transitioning, there's going to be some trans people who do bad things. This happens with every social group of people. To borrow from sociologist Mark Worrell, who wrote about the social phenomenon of mass shootings, like destruction of others is the means towards another end. The desire for self destruction that the self was incapable of inflicting in isolation. A lot of mass shootings end with suicide or trying to get the police to kill you through suicide. Like public shootings like this have, have a very strong suicidal component. And some people might not be able to do that themselves. So they need to create a social context in which they feel like they can. And at least in terms of the States and to a smaller degree in Canada, like these shootings like exist as like this like cultural ritual. This like ritual of destruction of the self. And destruction of the self can include the social apparatus that makes up the self. And for like a young person, that's what, that's, that's their family in school. The two things that were targeted in this shooting, right, this, this network that makes up like my sense of self as a 17 year old, 18 year old, it's going to be my family which is, you know, for Jesse, that's, that's her mom. She's been separated from her father for, for a while, as well as her stepbrother and then also this school that she used to, used to go to. Right? That, that's, that's like the sort of, that's the network that makes up your idea of the social. And like I said before, like, as the trans community grows, there's going to be some overlap between anti social, you know, mentally unwell individuals who act out a mass killing as a suicide and disintegrated and socially under regulated people who try transitioning as a way to ease tensions both internally and externally. And if anything, I think transitioning can often be maybe one of the healthiest ways to attempt to relieve some of these tensions. But like, being trans is like a marginal position in society, right? And the people who commit school shootings and suicide through mass shootings are at like the very, very extreme end of social dysregulation and like marginal isolation. And some people in those latter categories will also try transitioning as a method of social regulation. And in Jesse's case, like, considering all their posts about like mental health and drugs, never once is being trans cited as like a point of their distress. Like that's the thing that's causing them the distress. It is, it is a method of relief. At least according to like their own writing on Reddit, like that the cause of the distress are all these are these other things. And like people can blame mass shootings or mass killings on like any number of specific factors, right? Such as access to weapons, whether that's, you know, knives, firearms, bullying, substance abuse, mental health and lacking mental health services and like mental health oversight. But like the common base factor across, you know, most of those things is that there's like social disintegration and deregulation happening. That, that's like a failure to balance like egoism and altruism, right? Like a healthy individual sense of self as well as a place of belonging within a larger social group. Like we need a mix of freedom and available structured paths for social life. Ritualistic outbursts of suicidal violence against society happen when these things are extremely unregulated and someone falls out of the social fabric. And like marginal classes like trans people can be particularly affected by social disintegration and deregulation. And like, it's important to note here, like, this isn't caused by some like vague medical condition, like gender dysphoria, like that, that's, that's not causing the violence Right. Prescribed estrogen is not a causal force in this. We don't even know if Robin Westman or Jesse was even on estrogen. We don't know. But these things aren't, aren't causal. But you know, these are social positions that include, you know, these larger social factors that affect large populations. One of those populations can be trans people. There's a lot of social disintegration that affects CIS men currently. They do a lot of shootings.
- [40:01]
James Stout
Majority.
- [40:02]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, the overwhelming majority. You can also graph these things on class lines. Lots of people who go and do public shootings, either themselves or their families, are suffering from economic instability or people in like the middle class as well, which has this other problem in like Durkheim's methodology of suicide, which I'm kind of pulling from a little bit here, is like this sense of like overregulation can also produce an unhealthy balance. So it's either, you know, very overregulated people, you know, like, like Elon Musk has too much freedom, has too much, too much like access to like money and possibilities that he's then a very dysfunctional person. This can happen with some probably like, you know, like middle class kids as well that can produce violent outbursts. But a lot of the time it's, you know, lower middle class or lower class conditions that can lead to violence. And sometimes it does not go to the extreme of doing a mass killing. It can often just result in petty crime, which is arguably a more healthy method of regulation compared to something like a mass shooting, which is the most desperate, the most marginal act of suicide that we could envision as a society.
- [41:17]
James Stout
I just wanted to specifically say when it came to factors, you're distinctly not saying that video games were in any way responsible. I know you're not, but I just like, people should know that. When you mention Roblox, people, I had, I think my mom and someone else ask like, oh, what's the storyline for Roblox? And I was like, it's like asking what's the story for Minecraft? Right. Yeah, I was like, these are world building. It's similar to seeing someone basically trying to journal out their thoughts. Right. I think in, in that she was building these, these mass shooting simulators. That wasn't her being influenced, I say, by some kind of like template that Roblox had that was her showing. Yeah. Creating something to, to express something else.
- [42:00]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. And that sort of like, like cosplay or replication very common among this, you know, growing community of, of the true crime community. That the school shooter fandom, which, which attracts a lot of people in marginal populations. Right. The fact that Samantha Rupp now is like one of the first like, you know, CIS female school shooters, like, is notable here and like a lot of like the early like Columbine fandom on Tumblr was, was young girls. The fact that TCC is attracting like a wider net than just CIS males, I think is, is interesting, but it points to these other social forces. I think condensing it down to being like a certain mixture of SSRIs and HRT is what's causing this. Like there's.
- [42:38]
James Stout
Or psychedelics for that.
- [42:41]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, or psychedelics. Right. I mean like anything. These things can exist within a healthy equilibrium. Right. Psychedelics can be a very healthy tool for people to deal with like mortality, PTSD things. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Right. You know, whether that's, you know, mdma, Ketamine or like mushrooms, like mushrooms are being used to treat people who have cancer. Right. To help them get comfortable with, with this idea of their own mortality. These things can exist within a healthy equilibrium of the social, but they can also exist in an unhealthy non equilibrium. Right. And I think the types of ways that Jesse was writing about psychedelics online I think demonstrates a very unhealthy use of these drugs, especially as like, you know, like a 16 year old.
- [43:20]
Giorgio
Right.
- [43:21]
James Stout
Like it's. Well, it sounds like self medication, it sounds like unsupervised medication and it also sounds like something that was most likely acting as an accelerant. Right. Like if you already have a host of other problems, if you are introducing a, a very large amount of incredibly powerful like you know, psychostimulants into, you know, what you're ingest every day, then it's going to have potentially very, very dangerous outcomes. Yeah.
- [43:43]
Garrison Davis
Again, these are largely correlating factors. Not cause, not causal forces. Right. The causal forces is this like social disintegration and deregulation of which, you know, abuse of psychedelics can do a lot of damage to your sense of self and your sense of self within like a larger, a larger community. And the, the fact that I think like specifically, you know, the lacking mental health services, lacking like oversight of these things in terms of like a policy outlook, like these are things that we as a society should be putting more work into. If you actually want to start solving this problem, you can get into, you know, larger, larger things about, you know, like the alienation of like quote unquote late stage capitalism, which you know, also can be a factor in this another accelerant.
- [44:22]
James Stout
Right. Like, I think a lot of these are accelerants. Right. Every other thing that you've been listing. And then it seems to me like, you know, this compounded upon this, which compounded upon this and, and eventually led, you know, someone to looking up more and more extreme content.
- [44:34]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. One thing that I do want to mention, which I've kind of seen. Seen discussed, is like, that. This term, like radicalization, saying that, you know, she was like, radicalized into this, like, violent content. This is more of like a, like a semantic note. I'm not sure how useful, like, the, the term radicalization is in this case. If anything, I think she was like, desensitized to horrific acts of violence through repeated viewing and was. Was in. Was in communities that encouraged this sort of thing. I think that's the way that I'm framing it as opposed to, you know, radicalization makes, makes you think of like, politics and like, ideology.
- [45:07]
James Stout
Right, Right. Or not Nazism or white supremacy or something like that. Right?
- [45:11]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, yeah. And it's like a higher calling. It's not that they're getting, like, politically radical, it's that they're, they're dropping out of the social fabric and desensitizing themselves to this concept of like, you know, horrific, like, societally targeted violence.
- [45:26]
James Stout
I know now that like, obviously the right wing is decided that they're uniquely going to be attacking trans people. I'm not sure if you're aware of the shooter's father's statements that were just made recently. The father intentionally uses terms like I am the biological father, refers to her with he, him pronouns, says that he wasn't allowed to raise her, that she was taken from him. Part of me is also really fearful that this is going to be maybe the future of the, the Matt Walsh Lives of TikTok circuit. Right here we have the, the case, like the number one horror story that every right wing, you know, personality always talks about.
- [45:59]
Giorgio
Right.
- [46:00]
Garrison Davis
Or.
- [46:00]
James Stout
Or that the myth that Elon Musk perpetuates. Yeah, exactly. That this is somehow negatively impacting their children.
- [46:05]
Garrison Davis
No. Yeah, that is a good thing to keep an eye on. I haven't, have not seen that in
- [46:09]
James Stout
terms of like, you know, your analysis. And I appreciate it, by the way, a lot. I hadn't thought of it in those terms in terms of like, disconnecting from the social fabric itself. Is there things that can be done? Like, is there recommendations beyond, like, obviously, you know, late stage capitalism, mass alienation? I'm not, not solving that tomorrow. So.
- [46:26]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, I Mean, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to solve that on a stream.
- [46:34]
James Stout
No, you have Friday the 13th, isn't it called? It could happen here. Let's let it happen.
- [46:39]
Mick
Come on.
- [46:41]
Garrison Davis
I mean, yeah, like there's a lot of things that we can do like even just like increasing like social services. Right. Like, like fund funding social services can be a thing. Like what, what can we do to strengthen the, the social fabric. Right. Give people available paths for their life. You know, that's through, you know, education, free college, make, make life actually feel like you have a way to exist within a social matrix. Canada already has, you know, compared to the states, fairly restrictive gun laws. Those are a factor. But there's even mass killings like this that happen, you know, in Europe where people find other means of enacting them besides guns.
- [47:16]
James Stout
Or Japan, swords and knives oftentimes.
- [47:18]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, right. Yeah. So like these things have some like based social, social aspects that are going to be the things that you know, solving is, is kind of more challenging rather than just, you know, taking away guns, making drugs that are already illegal harder to get. Right. These things aren't, aren't going to actually eliminate this problem. But I mean funding social services can be an aspect of this. Having more comprehensive mental health care, free health care check ins, you know, if that's a big thing in the States. Canada has that to some degree but still there's obviously room for improvement. But I mean, yes, solving these like larger social problems, that's like that's the question of the 21st century.
- [47:56]
James Stout
Yeah. And, and I mean, you know, based on the story that you're telling and the research you did, it does really seem like this is one of those cases where this doesn't happen often. But when you see it get to that end state this, this is pretty much right. The, the patterns become a lot more evident. The, the, the obsession with prior shootings, the mental health episodes and now the combining that with, you know, a very, very prolific psychedelic drug use and then here we are.
- [48:24]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, I mean this person should not have had guns, right? At a certain point their guns were taken away or guns in the house were taken away. If police knew about their activity on these forums, I'm sure this wouldn't have been returned. So there's, there's, there's certain things like you know, parents being more aware of these sorts of like online spaces, the, the school shooter fandom, you know, picking up signs of, you know, social isolation, how much, how much time your kid is just spending alone on The Internet. And you might not be knowing what they're doing. Solving that's, you know, hard because, because the solution for a lot of, a lot of, you know, states is just like increased surveillance on platforms like, you know, discord, age verification. But those types of, you know, guardrails don't exist on a forum site like Watch People Die. Right? You can, you can have a very, you know, safe regulated discord which just pushes people to, you know, even more niche, even more dangerous parts of the Internet. You know, Watch People Die started as a Reddit page that was, you know, taken down like seven years ago. Now it's, you know, far a far less regulated thing that kids are spending a decent amount of time on. But you know, being aware of, you know, the risks of this type of like social isolation, you know, is also a start. And ideally we do not have a forum site, you know, dedicated to glorifying mass killings. But banning a website is not so simple. It's easier said than done, you know, figuring out a way to take that down. Right. Same problem with you know, like 8 Kun or like, you know, 8 Chan back in the day, 4 Chan and eventually Kiwi farms.
- [49:49]
James Stout
But this one seems blatant to the point of illegality. And I don't want to, I know you don't have time for me to start a whole topic, but like, I
- [49:56]
Garrison Davis
mean like 8 Kun's also illegal, right? They host a lot of illegal content there. Finding a way to take it down is still tricky. You know, a lot of websites host illegal stuff. Just because it's, you know, illegal does, does not mean it's gonna, it's going to be solved. Like the legal pathway there is tricky.
- [50:11]
James Stout
But isn't the rule of thumb typically that if a lot of those companies that provide them with the necessary, like DDoS security, they're like through line. Seems to be as long as it's not illegal. Right. Like if you're not running a child porn or sorry, child sexual abuse material website, if you're not running like an assassination or cryptocurrency like drug site, you're fine. Like, but that just does in practice, doesn't work.
- [50:32]
Garrison Davis
I'm. I'm unsure of the current hosting situation of Watch People Die. I. But I wouldn't be surprised if they went through the same kind of loopholes by registering at like a certain foreign country with has that, that's very loose guidelines. Like, you know, that was the thing with like 8 kun for a while. But yeah, I'm, I'm actually unsure of the the current, the current like setup that watch people die has. Yeah, I've been talking about, you know, TCC and this, the school shooter fandom increasingly the past two years. And it's really tragic that it, that is something that I've, that is, you know, a pattern that is, that is continuing.
- [51:04]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [51:04]
Garrison Davis
This is like the really, the main, the main force across these shootings. Whether you're, you know, a CIS girl, CIS boy, a trans girl, trans guy, whatever, whatever demographic, you know, racial, you know, there was the, the Antioch school shooting in January 2025 that was done by this like black ironic neo Nazi similarly linked to TCC as well. Like whatever the demographic is. The through line that we're seeing is this just like nihilistic obsession with the act of school shooting and this fandom that has developed around it.
- [51:36]
James Stout
Do you find the media picks up on that at all? I know you've done a lot of research into it. Do they reach out to you?
- [51:41]
Garrison Davis
Do they ever say every once in a while. But it takes them time. It took them about three years after the peak of 764 to start reporting on 764. And now there's 764 articles all the time. But it took them about three years to catch up to it. But I would not be surprised if in a year and a half we get tons of articles about tcc. But a lot of legacy media is very slow to this sort of thing. My own Internet presence also exists kind of in the margins. My monitoring is in the margins. But those margins can have very destabilizing social effects. But it does take a while. I mean, same thing with the FBI, right? It took them years to get on top of 7.64, even though people were like reporting this stuff in like 2019, 2020. But before 764 was even that organization, there was previous iterations called like cvlt. But like, you know, that, that, that style of thing was, was, was a problem for years and the FBI did not really get on it until much later and the media then followed suit.
- [52:42]
Giorgio
Right.
- [52:43]
Garrison Davis
I do appreciate, I just don't have trust in, you know, the current, the current American law enforcement to really be on it right now. You know, I, I can't. I, I'm unsure of how that works in Canada at the, at this point, but certainly, certainly I don't think Catch Patel's FBI is going to be, you know, on this one super, super well, even though they, you know, been trying, been trying to, you know, push some stuff with like the nihilist violent extremism label, which does cover stuff like this.
- [53:10]
James Stout
But I know this is controversial, but in my opinion, it almost feels as if Kash Patel is actively trying to push narratives that will benefit this entire story that we're talking about in the opposite direction. Right. Like, if you're trying to push a narrative that Charlie Kirk's shooter. And we're not going to change topics, but I'm just, you know, bringing this up because you mentioned Cash Patel. You're trying to push that narrative that he was in fact trans or inspired by trans ideology or inspired by furries or furry culture, etc. They've tried everything. And now, now we're at the point where it's like the loosest of connections. It's like, well, there may have been a lover who is or is not may or may not be trans or non binary. We're not sure. But that's enough.
- [53:47]
Mick
We got it.
- [53:47]
James Stout
Catch Patel.
- [53:48]
Mick
We'll push the story.
- [53:48]
Garrison Davis
I mean, yeah, this is. This administration comes out of the same kind of network of influencers who try to grossly use horrific events to their own ideological advantage, including to, you know, attack groups of people that they find to be bad.
- [54:01]
James Stout
It's wild because it turns out they're all pedophiles. They're all part of an elite group of insiders. And so let's start talking about the Epstein files for next year.
- [54:15]
Garrison Davis
My brain is complete too. I know. I'm just joking. I'm just joking.
- [54:21]
James Stout
Where can everyone find you and your incredible work outside of listening to the amazing It Could Happen Here podcast?
- [54:27]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, well, I mean, I occasionally post about yaoi on X the Everything app at. By shonen type. I'm trying to post more about yaoi on bluesky. There's just not as much of it. But maybe I should be the change I want to see.
- [54:40]
James Stout
Is it not friendly, the environment?
- [54:42]
Garrison Davis
It's more so that there's just not as many yaoi artists on Blue Sky. A lot of yaoi artists are shockingly Japanese. And this Japan has a very large presence on X, the Everything app, at least at the moment. I know some of their like, AI image stuff is pushing, is pushing people to other platforms, but it's slow. But yeah, I'm on. I'm on. I'm on those two places. I also occasionally post photography at Instagram, also by Shonen type.
- [55:09]
James Stout
And I suppose if you enjoyed listening to me getting informed by the only information you heard here today, you should check out YouTube.com hesurftimes where I post videos and this one, too, will be there.
- [55:21]
Garrison Davis
Hey, you can look at. Yeah. Me in a black turtleneck. Talk about sad things.
- [55:27]
James Stout
There you go. If you enjoyed the audio version and you want to see the visual version of it, head on down to YouTube.com@thesurf times. Thank you so much for joining us today, Gary. I appreciate it.
- [55:37]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [55:39]
James Stout
It was a ton of fun. Well, actually, it was sad, but it was very informative.
- [55:42]
Garrison Davis
Yeah, that's the needle I try to thread.
- [55:45]
Emily Simpson
Absolutely.
- [55:56]
Garrison Davis
And the winner of the iHeart Podcast Award is. You can decide who takes home the
- [56:01]
James Stout
2026 iHeart Podcast Awards Podcast of the Year by voting at iHeart Podcast Awards.com
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Garrison Davis
now through February 22nd.
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James Stout
See all the nominees and place your
- [56:11]
Emily Simpson
vote at iHeartPodcastAwards.com Audible is a proud
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Garrison Davis
sponsor of the Audible Audio Pioneer Award. Explore the best selection of audiobooks, podcasts, and originals all in one easy app. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Sign up for a free trial@audible.com this
- [56:28]
Emily Simpson
is Ryder Strong, and I have a
- [56:29]
Mia Wong
new podcast called the Red Weather.
- [56:31]
Mick
It was many and many a year
- [56:34]
Garrison Davis
ago in a kingdom by the sea.
- [56:36]
Mia Wong
In 1995, my neighbor Anna Traynor disappeared from a commune.
- [56:40]
Emily Simpson
It was hard to wrap your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So, no, I am not your guru.
- [56:49]
Mia Wong
And back then, I lied to my
- [56:51]
Emily Simpson
parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody.
- [56:54]
Mia Wong
There were years, Ryder, where I could
- [56:56]
Garrison Davis
not say your name.
- [56:57]
Mia Wong
I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened.
- [57:06]
Emily Simpson
Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend?
- [57:10]
Garrison Davis
They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of Come around
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Emily Simpson
here in my white.
- [57:16]
Mia Wong
Boom, boom. This is the red weather. Listen to the red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [57:28]
Garrison Davis
Hey, everyone, it's Emily Simpson and Shane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast.
- [57:33]
Emily Simpson
Each week, we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie or you
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Garrison Davis
still need to wrap your head around
- [57:42]
Emily Simpson
the Diddy verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers. We're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes.
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Garrison Davis
Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [57:58]
Emily Simpson
You know Roald Dahl, the writer who
- [58:00]
Garrison Davis
thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda and the bfg. But did you know he was also a spy?
- [58:05]
Emily Simpson
Was this before he wrote his stories?
- [58:07]
Garrison Davis
It must have been.
- [58:08]
Emily Simpson
Our new podcast series, the Secret World of Roald Dahl is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduced the wives of powerful Americans.
- [58:19]
Mick
What?
- [58:19]
Emily Simpson
And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either.
- [58:22]
Garrison Davis
Okay, I don't think that's true.
- [58:24]
Emily Simpson
I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelts, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman?
- [58:33]
Garrison Davis
And then he took his talents to
- [58:35]
Emily Simpson
Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film.
- [58:40]
Garrison Davis
How did this secret agent wind up
- [58:42]
Emily Simpson
as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote.
- [58:52]
Garrison Davis
Listen to the Secret World of Roald
- [58:54]
Emily Simpson
Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [59:00]
Mink
Hello, everyone. Welcome to It Could Happen Here. My name is Mink. I'm here with James and Giorgio, and we're going to be talking about the documentary Sarajevo Safari.
- [59:14]
Mick
Yeah. Hi, Mick. Thanks for. Thanks for having us.
- [59:17]
Giorgio
Hi, everyone. Good to be here.
- [59:18]
Mink
Giorgio, do you want to introduce yourself?
- [59:20]
Giorgio
I am Giorgio. I am a Bosnian genocide researcher. I'm also the founder of the educational tool Voices from the Drina, which is a new educational resource on the genocide in Eastern Bosnia in particular, which allows researchers to follow the events of the genocide through a simulated social media style newsfeed. So the words of the survivors and the perpetrators come to life via the medium of social media. I'm also a member of the fantastic mutual aid group Lambeth Mutual Aid in South London. You can follow us on Instagram at Lambeth Mutual Aid. And you can follow me on the hellhole that is Xorgiokon Kon is K o n not con as an economand. Yeah, that's, I think, the key information.
- [60:18]
Mink
Okay, great. Then we're going to do the following. I've prepared roughly one page of context here for those of you who remember. A few months ago it was announced that the Italian prosecutors want to try and find the people who participated in the Sarajevo safari. And we'll be talking about a documentary that highlights and tries to shed a light on what happened there. The main accusation is that the army of Republika Srpska which is an entity within Bosnia and Herzegovina that they charged lots of monies for tourists to come over and shoot at civilians, which is. Yeah, obviously horrible.
- [61:03]
Mick
Yeah. Horrific.
- [61:04]
Mink
Nowadays, Bosnian Herzegovina is divided into two parts, which is like the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republika Srpska, which is essentially the territory that the Republika Srpska army gained during the war. Because I don't want to be there any confusion as to who the parties are, but it's pretty much two entities living in one nation state.
- [61:33]
Giorgio
Yes.
- [61:34]
Mink
So after I've given some context on what happened during the Balkan wars which led up to this event, we're going to be talking with Giorgio about the documentary. Unfortunately, the documentary is not available with English subtitles, so I'm glad we're having you with us, Giorgio, to illuminate us a bit more. So I also want to preface that, obviously it's not a thorough history of what happened there. That would be way too much information to condense into one episode. Also, while this episode will focus on the plight of the Bosnian people, I do want to note that pretty much every side in this entire conflict did horrendous things, committed atrocities, and I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention that. So we're going to start with, like so many things, the Second World War around the formation of Yugoslavia as a communist state, with the Serbian city of Belgrade being the center of power. The Balkans were a major point of conflict during World War II, with a lot of different parties and state actors trying to gain control over the region. Germany, Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria and Albania as some of the main actors. A variety of alliances and other entities were formed, which would all later be used in ethnic and ethnic nationalist discourse as a way to highlight the specific ethnic grievances. As a federation, Yugoslavia contained multiple ethnicities. Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Montenegrins and Muslims, which would later become called Bosniaks. And that's how I will be referring to them. So at the end of World War II, Joseph Tito would be the dictator of Yugoslavia, and he would try to counteract all this ethnic descent and friction by promoting something that he called brotherhood and unity, which sort of put Tito on a pedestal as a fatherly figure under whom everyone from all the different factions and ethnicities would be equal as Yugoslav people. This was only partially successful. The friction was never really resolved. And after the death of quito in the 80s marked the beginning of the end. It coincided with an economic crisis that sort of made all the different republics where all the different ethnicities were centered, beholden to themselves. It became a bit of a free for all. So after that point, ethnopolitics and ethno nationalism became the focus of all politics. Just to be really concrete, like with ethno nationalism, we mean like a form of nationalism that is based solely on ethnicity, not on citizenship or participation in a community. It's a lighter version of the blood and soil politics that became very synonymous with a certain German period of time. So what happened with this ethnic centric discourse is that perceived and real grievances became central to almost all politics, most notably, but not certainly exclusively under Slobodan Milosevic, who came to power late 80s in Serbia. Ethnic rhetoric would be the focal point for his politics and a sense to power. You would say things that would turn into slogans and with that captured a vital part of the animosity that a large part of the Serbian population would feel. Phrases like a weak Serbia means a strong Yugoslavia, hinting at the decline of Serbian power and the way they perceived this sort of slow fracturing that Yugoslavia was going through. Another one was in response to a Kosovari SERP who was allegedly beaten by a Kosovari Albanian. And Milosevic said, no one should dare beat you. Meaning that by virtue of being Serbian, they should be granted some sort of additional status or some sort of untouchability because they were ethnic Serbs. These examples serve to make clear that the changing and growing public opinion among the Serbs was that the only way for them to be secure and safe was as a national state controlled by the Serbs. So the whole idea was that they would control the entirety of Yugoslavia and that their ethnic group would be in control of the majority of the political institutions that were present there. As I think you both can imagine, this did not go over well with other ethnic groups. Yeah.
- [66:22]
Giorgio
So.
- [66:23]
Mink
Who are just not very keen on being part of a federation controlled by the Serbs. In March of 1998, the Croatian War of Independence started, and later that year, Slovenia did the same. Both these instances sparked a war already with the Serbs. Bosnia and Herzegovina followed later. A referendum was held in early 1992 on whether or not they were going to secede. They chose to secede, and in March of that year, Serbian forces attacked Bosnia and claimed towns and terrain that they deemed to be Serbian territory. Near the end of May, the Yugoslav People's army attempted to gain control over the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo, but failed to do so completely. At this point, the battle became a prolonged siege that would last until February of 96. Just to add a little Bit more about the location. Geographically speaking, defending Sarajevo was really difficult. The city lies between several mountains, which made it very easy for Serbian forces to set up artillery, ordinance and snipers. These would have very long lines of sight and greater range due to the elevated positions that they were set up in. If you look at a map of Sarajevo with like the terrain for Google Maps or something, you can see how much elevation there is all around the city. Roads and passes leading out of the city were blocked by Serbian forces. And once they had full control of the airport, there was little to no way for food, medicine or reinforcements to be deployed there. Within the city itself, Serbian forces also controlled a majority of major military positions. With additional snipers being positioned around them, multiple areas became incredibly dangerous to cross or approach, particularly the main road leading towards the airport. It became known as Sniper Alley. And I think it is in this context that we should start to discuss the documentary and allegations. So.
- [68:27]
Mick
Yeah.
- [68:28]
Mink
Anything to add from either of you?
- [68:31]
Mick
Yeah, it might serve to explain how in the greater European political landscape, entities on the right, I guess, in the global north generally began to sympathize with actors in the former Yugoslavia.
- [68:51]
Giorgio
Right.
- [68:51]
Mick
And how, like, maybe we can draw some lines between them based on their definition of nation, what they considered a nation to be. If that's something you'd like to like, explain to people.
- [69:03]
Giorgio
Yeah, absolutely. I think what's really important to stress is that when it came to Bosnia, and it's still the case to this day, to a lesser degree, the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosniaks, found themselves at this very peculiar intersection of oppression in which you had the Western European rights framing the war against Bosnia as a restoration of Christian Europe. This was what John Major, how John Major was talking about it, who was then the Prime Minister of the uk. It's also the kind of language we heard from Miteron in France and to some extent in the Clinton administration. After Bill Clinton read that horrendous book Vulcan Ghosts by Kaplan, his administration's rhetoric began to change and sort of frame this as this inevitable, you know, clash between these perpetually fighting tribes in the Balkans. You know, the legacies of that rhetoric are still heard in today's journalism. You know, I can't count the amount of times in even left leaning, supposedly Western journalistic publications, I've seen the word Balkanization being thrown around. You know, and this, these, this is what I'm talking about in terms of the intersection of dehumanization, exoticization and oppression that particularly Bosnia and the Muslims of Bosnia, Bosniaks have found themselves at and so you had that on the one side coming from the right. And by the way, the Serbs nationalists knew this. They tailored their rhetoric so, so, so effectively to present this case of we are fighting Europe's battle against Islamist extremists. But at the same time you had the Western European political left. And by political left I mean your Marxist Leninists, that sort of tradition within the political left in Western Europe, sort of buying into this co opting of anti fascist discourse from the Milosevic regime. Yeah, you know, Mick referenced the no one shall dare beat you speech in Kosovo, which was actually in response to a, at best hyperbolized, at worst fictitious claim that the Kosovo Serbs were facing this institutional violence. And that co opting of that rhetoric that the Milosevic regime did so well as these anti imperialists fighting against the, you know, evil axis of the west did kind of work to some degree when we're thinking about the response of the political parties on the left in Western Europe that were very sort of anti any intervention and we can have a conversation about, you know, NATO intervention and, and how problematic that was. But this very black and white thinking, very black and white rhetoric coming from those political actors in the west of. Well, this is nothing to do with us. Don't buy into the rhetoric that there are bad things happening. It's, you know, everyone's doing bad things, therefore we shouldn't do anything to put any pressure on the Milosevic regime. And so the reason why I'm bringing this all up is because if people can understand that, then it becomes more understandable how Bosnia was left to burn, how the Bosnian Muslims in particular, who are being targeted by Serb forces and Croat forces, both on the basis of their religious and ethnic identities, they found themselves completely abandoned. And obviously that abandonment really is embodied in the arms embargo that served none of the victims. It only served the Yugoslav army, which was effectively funding and sponsoring the Serb forces who were committing genocide in Bosnia. And of course the Croat forces had Zagreb, had the Croatian regime funding them. So this arms embargo, which was supposed to be this, you know, for want of a better word, neutral stance for the world to take, was not neutral at all. Of course, as we know, there's no such thing as neutrality, blah, blah, blah. But this, this was really how it became possible for such a high number of people, the vast majority Muslim people, to be killed whilst the genocide was being televised.
- [74:09]
Mick
Yeah, that's super important.
- [74:11]
Mink
You brought up Bill Clinton reading that book. I thought of putting it in there, but I didn't want to besmirch Bill Clinton's good name here. But essentially what that book does is it sort of correct me if I'm wrong. It sort of puts forth this clash of civilizations kind of of rhetoric where these two people are so different, are so different, they will always inevitably clash and fight and kill each other as sort of a biologically determined factors almost.
- [74:48]
Giorgio
Yeah, I mean, we see a similar sort of thing. I mean, there are specificities to Palestine, but we see a similar sort of thing with the sort of liberal humanistic rhetoric of let's view the. What's happening in Gaza as beyond ethnic labels, you know, and we're going to see the humanity behind everyone. And, you know, we, you know, I saw there's a German comedian who was putting up posters of Palestinians who had been killed and Israelis who had been killed and removing the ethnic labels and just putting human killed. And, and it's going back to this. This what you're talking about in terms of here are two communities that are always fighting each other and we lose sight of everyone's humanity as a result. And if they would just stop fighting, if they would just, you know, stop for a second and, and look beyond the labels, then the world would be a better place. And it's all, in my opinion, tied up in the same illogic as that book was. Was getting at a sort of.
- [75:54]
Mink
I don't see color.
- [75:55]
Giorgio
Yes.
- [75:56]
James Stout
Approach.
- [75:57]
Mink
But the conflict.
- [75:59]
Giorgio
Yes, yes, yes.
- [76:00]
Emily Simpson
Okay.
- [76:00]
Mick
Yeah, yeah. A similar narrative that's deployed in Syria and Myanmar actually. Like, it's a go to response of neoliberalism when they have absolutely no understanding of a situation beyond that there is conflict there and people are dying. Right. Like, it's a very easy response for anyone in a politician or an NGO or who wants to write a book. Like, it's very easy to do that and to sell that narrative right through appealing to people who don't know all about it.
- [76:27]
Giorgio
Yeah, yeah.
- [76:29]
Mink
And I also want to add another thing, because nowadays Bosnian Herzegovina is divided into two parts, which is like the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republic of Srpska, which is essentially the territory that the Republic of Srpska army gained during the war. Because I don't want to be there any confusion as to who the parties are, but it's pretty much two entities living in one nation state.
- [77:02]
Giorgio
Yes.
- [77:03]
Mink
This was also like a recurring theme when I was in Bosnia for my master thesis. There is a deep sentiment with the people, but also politically that Bosniaks were left to their fate because Bosnia and Herzegovina is the only Muslim majority country in Europe. And there is a very deep feeling of, like, the reason that we were left out in the cold, that we were abandoned, is because it was a Muslim majority country. And I think that is just a very important thing to highlight because that is also a starting point of the vilification of Muslims by virtue of being Muslim. That sort of ideological war of the west versus the Eastern Muslims that sort of started to coalesce at around that time, I think.
- [77:51]
Giorgio
I don't know if I'd say it was the start, but what I would say is the legacies of Europe's obsession with the Ottoman Empire really came to the fore in Bosnia because a lot of the rhetoric and the discourses that were being produced by Serb forces hinged around this idea that we, the Serbs, are finishing the job that we started in the Balkan wars of the 1800s and 1900s. We are finishing the job of getting rid of this remnant of the Ottoman Empire, the Muslims in Bosnia. And in fact, you know, I always go to a piece of footage from 11 July, 1995, when the General of the army of the Republika Srska Radkomladic, who is serving a life sentence for genocide, his forces entered, they invaded Srebrenica. Srebrenica had fallen. And he says to the camera, we have come here to take revenge on the Turks. And I think that really embodies what I'm trying to say here, which is that these legacies of this clash of civilizations that were sort of prominent in the various wars against the Ottomans came back and they were redeployed. They were reactivated by Serb forces in particular, but also Croat forces to a lesser degree. And, you know, I go back to what I was saying before John Major saying this is a painful but inevitable restoration of Christian Europe on some level. On some level, Western Europe was buying into it. On some level. So, yeah, I don't think it was the start of the vilification of Muslims, but I think that it was intertwined with previous legacies that were reactivated.
- [79:52]
Mick
Yeah. And this was very much like the Zeitgeist at that time. Right. Like Huntington's. Right. In Clash of Civilizations. Then it seems like a lot of the response in much of the world to the end of the Cold War was to create another enemy and that. That became Islam. That's sort of the. The discourse after Fukuyama. Sorry to mention Fukuyama, but, like, people didn't want there to be apart from him, like an end to. To the conflict over how to organize our societies. And because that's a ludicrous thesis. And so they, they, they, they very much re. I think a lot of the, the sort of fear that plays such an important role in politics in many of our countries was, was remobilized in this orientalist packaging towards Muslim people that, as you say, built on centuries of bigotry. My only engagement with the, the conflict when I was much younger was that somebody who I knew through cycling had previously been a football hooligan. I think that's probably how he would describe himself. There was a great deal of exchange in fan violence, I guess would be the academic term between the former Yugoslavia and the rest of Europe, which is an interesting and not great way to learn about things.
- [81:16]
Giorgio
I mean, what's interesting is that there has been a direct connection between the far right nationalist gangs, the paramilitaries that committed atrocities, and some of the Serbian football clubs, and in particular the ultras in those clubs, because those football clubs were the sort of gateway for mafia bosses to transition back into normal society. So, yeah, it's a very interesting area of the, of the broader conflict.
- [81:46]
Mink
Yeah, I think at this point we should get back on, back on track a bit.
- [81:52]
Giorgio
Yes. Let's talk about the thing we came to talk about.
- [81:55]
Mink
Yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about the siege of Sarajevo and the documentary Sarajevo Safari. But first we should experience the prolonged siege of advertisements.
- [82:19]
Mick
And we're back, as we said before we left, to besiege areas with advertisements. We should talk about this, this Saro Safari. I guess, maybe. Should we just begin by, by summarizing the, the maybe allegations still the correct word? I don't know. The, the events that are documented in the film. Let's say that.
- [82:40]
Giorgio
Yeah. So the SAO Safari documentary was a. Is a documentary that was made by Slovenian filmmaker Miran Zupanic. And it presents longstanding allegations that there was a form of war tourism taking place during the siege of Sarajevo in which affluent non Bosnians were paying very high fees to shoot at civilians from sniper positions being held by the army of the Republika Srpska. These allegations and the narrative of the documentary is presented through witness testimony, including an anonymous former intelligence agent. And the film and the sort of, the testimonies that are part of the film claim that this war tourism or this safari, this hunting, human hunting game, effectively business was a sophisticated, organized and secret operation. One of the most shocking allegations that the documentary brings to light that these non Bosnian tourists, for want of a better word, would pay even more money to shoot at Children. Now, in total, I mean, we don't have exact figures for various reasons. Very complicated. It's estimated that over 11,000 people were murdered in Sarajevo from these snipers. So the fact that this documentary is presenting these allegations that it wasn't just a Serb affair and that there were other nationals taking part in these crimes is huge. It is huge. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of the gist of what the documentary is trying to put across. Obviously there's more that I could say about the context and about sort of the context of the, of the case that has been taken up in Italy. But, you know, we can, we can talk about that as we, as we go, go along.
- [85:01]
Mick
Yeah.
- [85:02]
Mink
I think one of the allegations is also that there's like tourists from like the United States, from Canada, from Russia and also from Italy. To not go down the rabbit hole instantly. I just want dare to ask you, Giorgio, because I first heard about this film when I was in Sarajevo and back then, well, my first instinct was this has to be some sort of conspiracy theory. And that is partly to do with the person I interviewed back then and the way it was presented to me during that interview, but also because I don't think any of us is shocked at the atrocities and the crimes against humanity of war, but this somehow feels like another level. So what was your first impression as Bosnian genocide researcher to something like this happening?
- [85:58]
Giorgio
My first reaction was, I mean, I don't want to take away from the gravity of the documentary. I was shocked, but not surprised. So it is shocking that this sort of spectacle of violence was happening to that extent, in the same way that it's shocking that the concentration camps of Omarska, Ternopolye, Keratern, all of those concentration camps were being televised and were still in operation. I mean, yes, eventually the international pressure shut them down, but it took a long time. That is all shocking. It is shocking that the peace agreement that brought a formal end to the conflict legitimized simultaneously the political project of the Republika Srska by recognizing the entity. All of these things are shocking. So for me, the allegations of the documentary fall into this broader abject failure and complicity of the so called international community in the crimes that were being committed in Bosnia. So that is why I'm not surprised. I was. It's shocking. The content is shocking. The fact that it was able to happen is not surprising. And I think the documentary speaks to the broader complicity of so many layers of society in the atrocities that were being committed. You know, but let's be real. Let's be really, really blunt here. The countries from which the tourists came are not the only countries that are implicated in the atrocities of the war and genocide in Bosnia. You had far right volunteers from Greece who were being trained by Radkomladic's army who were in Srebrenica on 11 July that the Greek state has never investigated. You had banks in Cyprus that were allowing Milosevic to funnel his money into them during the embargo. You know, there are so many states who on some level have played a role in the atrocities that have not held themselves or their nationals accountable. So, yeah, that is my reaction if, if that makes sense to you guys, you know.
- [88:39]
Mick
Yeah, like we live in a, in an age where they get most people's thoughts are directly transcribed to their social media profiles at all times. Right. And I think it is probably easier than it has ever been for us to bear witness to a genocide as multiple genocides are occurring, like at the time that we're recording. Right. But obviously that's the most, I wouldn't even say the most well documented, the one that certainly gets the most social media attention is the one happening in Gaza for pretty obvious reasons. People are probably better placed now to understand this in the context of a genocide than they would have been five years ago even, right. That the project of a genocide has happened so in the open and then they have seen nations which claim to be opposed to these things and institutions which were created to stop genocides do nothing. So I think it's probably easier than ever for people to understand the dehumanization that happens and the, the, the way that these things progress. But I wonder, like, it's just such a, like you said, Mick, like, it's one thing to go to war, right? And it's another thing to have war come to you. Like, like I have traveled to report on wars. But the, as you said, right, like war isn't trying to be violent. And in this particular war, acts of inhuman violence happened often and from a great deal of actors. Right. But like, it's one thing when your community that is under threat, your family have been killed and then you respond with violence, like it doesn't make it right, but that is how war is. It's another thing to pay to hop on a flight and go and shoot a child. Like that is particularly craven. So I wonder, like, it seems that the cases, the prosecutions are mostly focusing on like people from the Italian far right. Do you have an idea if like this was for Them part of that project of like, like doing a second reconquista, right, for. For want of a better term, like purging Muslim people from Europe or if it was simply the thrill of killing
- [91:00]
Giorgio
other humans, I think it would be remiss to try and detach the thrill of killing humans from who those humans are. Yeah, that's my honest opinion.
- [91:13]
Mick
That's fair.
- [91:14]
Giorgio
I think, you know, I know less about the granular details of these people from Italy, from the far right, who were going to do this. But if I think about what I know about the Greek far right volunteers, where we have a bit more information to go on, and why they were going to Bosnia, this was all about fighting the Turks. This was all about helping our Christian brothers, the Serbs, in their fight against the Muslims. And I. I suspect that it wasn't too dissimilar in the political imaginary of the Italian far right. And not just the Italian far right. I mean, as we said from all the other countries where they were coming from. So, yeah, I think there was a framing that was behind a lot of this international participation that the Serb nationalists were very aware of, and they were very deliberate in the discourses that they were producing. I'll give another example. When I was working at the Memorial Center, I was reading in Srebrenica, I was reading the transcripts of the assembly of the Republika Srpska during the war. And in those transcripts, I can count on one hand the amount of times that Serb nationalist officials referred to Bosnian Muslims as Bosnian Muslims. They were in the vast majority of cases referred to as either Turks or Islamists or terrorists or even Ustasha, who, for anyone listening who may not be aware, were the Operation SEA aligned regime that took control of what is today Bosnia Herzegovina and also what is today Croatia during the Second World War. And so, you know, discourses, they are produced for a reason. And I know I'm going a little bit, you know, sort of foucault and, and whatever. I don't like talking in that way, but I will try to keep it as accessible as possible. When people produce discourses, it's to create not only a sense of what is true and what is false, but also it's to create this feeling of truth. It's what feels right. So, you know, it felt right to so many members of the far right to take up arms and hop on a plane or whatever and go to Bosnia to fight, you know, without questioning what actually the war and genocide was about. It felt right. And so that's how These discourses, that's what they served to create this feeling of this is the truth and this is the right thing for us to do. Yeah, that was a very long winded answer. I apologize.
- [94:21]
Mick
No, it's either one.
- [94:22]
Giorgio
It.
- [94:23]
Mick
It reminds me a lot of the discourses that we saw in Myanmar preceding the genocide of the Rohingya people. Right. Like, very rarely did we see them referred to by that name or as of them being natives of Myanmar. Right. Or them having been there for centuries. They're referred to as terrorists. They're referred to as Bangladeshis, they're referred to as illegal immigrants. They're often referred to as members of the Islamic State for Iraq and Al Sham, which shows a fundamental misunderstanding of those last two words. But it's important, I think, to see these commonalities because we should be able to identify these things and see how dangerous they are.
- [95:04]
Giorgio
Yeah, absolutely.
- [95:06]
Mink
You know, who doesn't produce discourses that make people hop on flights to other countries?
- [95:14]
Mick
I'm not sure we can say that these days, but let's hope.
- [95:17]
Mink
Yeah, that's true, but we had to think of something, so I guess this will do.
- [95:23]
Mick
Yeah.
- [95:24]
Mink
Can't have golden pivots all the time.
- [95:36]
Mick
All right, we are back. Should we talk a little more in depth about, like, this practice of human safaris? Right. Or at least the allegations that are made so.
- [95:49]
Mink
Well, I am, I am curious, Georgia, because I was still reading into this a bit earlier today, and one of the testimonies that popped up during the trial of Dragomir Milosevic, not Slobodan, not sure if they're related, to be honest, probably not. But there's an American called John Jordan who testified at the International Criminal Court. He led a volunteer fighter, fighter unit during the siege. But he also says that some of the people he worked with also had seen tourists in other areas. And Mostar is named specifically. Is there any more detail in there about this happening in other areas of Bosnia or other places?
- [96:42]
Giorgio
Well, about Mostar in particular. In particular, I am not sure because I've not heard myself of those allegations. Obviously, there was the Greek volunteer guard who were in places like Srebrenica, but also Vishekrad. They went on after the war to become. Well, actually, sorry, I'll correct myself. Even at that time, they were part of the. What later became golden dawn. The far right now criminal organization was a political party. So that, you know, you had that happening in terms of tourists, non combatants. I am not aware of other places where it was happening on a large scale. Scale like in Sarajevo. So, yeah, I'm not perhaps best placed to go into more detail about that, but I will definitely talk to my contacts in Mostar about the allegation. Any allegations there?
- [97:46]
Mick
Yeah, I guess one thing that I want to ask is, like, we're seeing a very limited prosecution. Right. In Italy, and I think maybe also in. Somewhere in, like, is it in Belgium or the Netherlands? I thought I read that there was another prosecution. Not. Not to confuse those two countries. Mick. Sorry. But for the people who survived the genocide. Right. What does this. You can't speak on their behalf, of course, but, like, on the one hand, it is some very small move towards justice, but at least it's a movement. But on the other hand. Right, like, the deaths of their family members are being played out in this documentary, and it must be very difficult to understand just. Just how, like, I don't know, casually, like, life was taken during the genocide.
- [98:42]
Giorgio
Yeah.
- [98:43]
Mick
Do you think it helps healing? Like, I guess I'm struggling to phrase that as a question, but, you know, like, I'm interested to know how this. This. This lands from that perspective.
- [98:52]
Giorgio
I guess the general mood among survivors in Bosnia is that no one cares about what happened to us. These films that go on to get awards potentially, and, you know, the filmmakers get pat on the back and all of that. They sort of. There's a lot of cynicism around that. And we saw this in particular in regards to Quo Vadis Aida. Not sure if you both watched that, but that recent. When was that? 2021, maybe a few years ago. Which, for anyone who hasn't watched it, is a film that depicts the genocide in Srebrenica. And, you know, and that won some awards. I can't remember the titles of them, but, you know, sort of response among particularly the Bosniak community was one of mixed emotions. Yes. On the one hand, it was, you know, something that they were willing to support. You know, they would hold screenings of the film. They would, you know, collaborate with the director. But on the other hand, there was this sense of, okay, and now what? And I think from the conversations that I've had with Bosniaks and from the articles that I've read in response to this documentary, there's a similar sort of mood of, yeah, this is really important, and we have been making these allegations for a long time, or we've been aware of the allegations for a long time. Why is it getting attention now? What's going to happen now? Can we trust that the Italians will. That Italy will actually carry on with this investigation? And, and that justice will be had. And also, you know, the notion of justice is so fraught in Bosnia as well. I think that to sort of. To imagine that we are on this path towards, you know, this linear path towards absolute healing and absolute justice and reconciliation, I think is a sort of a notion that comforts a lot of Western NGOs. It's not necessarily reflective of reality on the ground. So, yeah, I don't think I would be connecting this with any sense of healing at this stage.
- [101:18]
Mick
Yeah, I think that makes sense. It can be easy to see it as like, well, it's out in the open now and people have watched a film about it. Right. You know, like, I think a lot about the. The genocide. These are Yazidi people, and how, like, it essentially just has been, what, 12 years ago now, and it's been entirely forgotten by most people. Many of those people, you know, I have. I have been to where they are and in terrible conditions in refugee camps in Iraqi Kurdistan. Right. And yeah, people are aware of it. Every now and again someone writes something about it. But like, those. Those people are no closer to any form of healing, you know, that they still can't even in many cases have not returned to their homes.
- [102:13]
Giorgio
I mean, this is the thing in, you know, particularly in the. In the Republica Srpska entity, you know, Bosnia are living in that entity, they face material precarity on an everyday basis. They face threats, they face genocide, triumphalism. Every year when the. Celebrates the founding of the entity, all of these everyday violences don't go away because of a film. And I think that Bosniaks that I have come to know in living in the entity of the Republica circa really carry that sense of we're dealing with shit every day. Every day we are facing material battles and we're doing it alone most of the time. So, yeah, it's very difficult to put an optimistic, hopeful twist on. On these things.
- [103:08]
Mink
Yeah, I remember I was one. One year later than you were there. I was also at the memorial in Srebrenica and I remember, I'm not going to name a name, but there was someone who was living in the area who spoke to us, and someone from my group wanted to film that. And I remember that the man was very, very adamant that, hey, I do not want to be filmed. I already need to walk these streets. That is enough. You should have asked for permission. I also remember, like, put in posters when walking through surrey, hanging on certain windows.
- [103:50]
Giorgio
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [103:52]
Mink
But I also want to cut in with something else. Because after James mentioned that other countries were prosecuting as well, I like quickly googled something. Apparently Italy has already named a, a suspect in the investigation.
- [104:06]
Mick
Oh, interesting.
- [104:07]
Giorgio
Yes. Now, 80 year old man. Yeah, yeah.
- [104:11]
Mink
Who was a truck driver.
- [104:13]
Giorgio
Yes.
- [104:14]
Mink
This is something that had come up when I was writing and everything.
- [104:19]
Mick
I had assumed that this was something that was extremely, I don't know, expensive, I suppose, just because it's just so up and that. Yeah. Like it's once that it was someone who, if they're 80 now, would have been 50 at the time. So someone who was not young and had a relatively working class profession. Like, it's, it's, that's, that just isn't the profile I had in my head. And I just wondered if you knew any more about developments in the case that might like.
- [104:48]
Giorgio
I mean, to be really honest, I don't have much more to, to contribute into. In terms of that. The suspect and, and what this, what, what's going on. Yeah, you know, I think it was they. He was summoned to testify last week. I think he was going to testify on the 11th or maybe, maybe the 9th. I think maybe the 9th, but I haven't heard anything beyond that. Okay, so, I mean, in terms of what you were saying about the profile of the suspect, I mean, yes, on the one hand it goes against the whole idea that it was wealthy tourists only, but let's also remember that in terms of domestic participation, there was a lot of capital to be gained by serving the Republica SRKA project. I mean, you had everything from civilian sub, civilian truck drivers who helped to deport civilians, Bosnia civilians. You had Serb civilians who were hired to dig secondary and tertiary graves, mass graves. There was an array of positions, capital that was created for people who had very little. And I think that that's important to bear to bear in mind. Obviously that's in reference to the domestic to the participation of civilians within the former Yugoslavia. What the story behind this Italian truck driver is remains to be seen. But that's where my mind goes. When you were talking about his profile.
- [106:36]
Mick
Yeah. I mean, there are things to be gained internationally through that same participation in that same project. Right. Like not necessarily like, like from the Serbian project, but like in terms of one's status in groups, in terms of like social capital on the right. I guess we shouldn't ignore that. I don't know, maybe it should just remind us that like especially these struggles can all seem so disparate.
- [107:03]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [107:03]
Mick
But they're not. Like the struggle against a domestic right. In Italy was obviously the same thing as the. Or at least, you know, shared. Shared a. Shared an enemy with the attempts to fight back against this genocidal violence there.
- [107:19]
Giorgio
Yeah.
- [107:20]
Mink
I think it is important to keep in mind that I think when we all initially thought of the type of person who would do something like this and pay money for this, we all had an image in our head of the type. That type. And I just think it's strong, Very important to then take into account that it can also be everyday people who are. Who can be capable and willing to do something like this.
- [107:48]
Giorgio
Yeah.
- [107:49]
Mink
Also, another suspect who is not named but is mentioned in this article, it's from the Sarajevo Times, just to be transparent, is a banker. So it fits a lot better with, like, the image we had in our heads.
- [108:03]
Giorgio
Yeah, yeah. Something to add about the documentary's context. One of the people who testified in the documentary is a man called Edin Subashic, who was a former Bosnian intelligence agent. Now, the reason why I'm bringing him up is because he actually says. I believe he says it in the documentary or he may have said it in a subsequent interview. I'll double check. He has said that himself and the Bosnian intelligence agency first informed the Italian intelligence service about what they believed, what they had evidence was happening in terms of the Sarajeira safari. They first informed them in 1993, and then a few months later, in March 1994, the Italian intelligence service informed them that the matter had been closed. So that's just some interesting context to sort of think about in terms of perhaps some of the skepticism and cynicism that Bosniaks have about where this is going and the potential for change that could come as a result?
- [109:17]
Mick
Yeah. Are there projects in solidarity with the people and the descendants of people who survive this that you think people can engage with?
- [109:28]
Giorgio
I think that I would encourage people to follow Bosnians for Palestine on Instagram because what they are doing is that they are being very intentional in highlighting the commonalities between the violence against Palestinians and what Bosniaks in particular endured during the war and genocide.
- [109:53]
Mick
Okay, cool.
- [109:54]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [109:54]
Giorgio
I would also point people towards a very interesting grassroots. I don't know exactly what they are in terms of. Are they. They're not an ngo. I don't know if they're an association or just a grassroots initiative. They're called. It's a Bosnian title. They're called Ostra Nula O S T R A New Word, M U L A and they are based in the Republica Sapska entity, but they are a group of young activists from all ethnic backgrounds, all of the three major ethnic groups in Bosnia, that's Serb, Croats and Bosniak, who take an explicitly anti capitalist approach to their work. So they, they are very interesting. And the fact that they're doing what they're doing and to fight against the corruption of the Republika Srska authorities and ethno nationalism and they're doing that within the entity, I think it is really quite extraordinary. So you can also follow them on Instagram and keep up to date with what they're doing. I mean, they're always, there's always either a march happening in solidarity with Palestine or there was recently a reading of names of all the murdered children of Sarajevo alongside all of the murdered children of Gaza in the recent wave of the genocide in Gaza. So there's a lot of very interesting stuff happening which people from all around the world can at least follow on social media. And if you're in or around Bosnia, then of course you can meet some of these people in person, which is great.
- [111:40]
Mick
Yeah.
- [111:41]
Mink
Yes. For closing thoughts, I was pleasantly surprised to read that they have suspects, so I'll take this win. And I also feel I should have seen this earlier, but Giorgio, thank you for, for coming on and having a chat with us about horrifying stuff.
- [112:01]
Giorgio
Thank you for inviting me.
- [112:02]
Mink
Our pleasure. Yeah, let's go, pet puppy.
- [112:06]
Mick
Yeah, let me go feed my chicken.
- [112:11]
Garrison Davis
All right.
- [112:25]
Mia Wong
Welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast about things falling apart and how to put them back together again. I'm your host, Mia Wong. Over the course of, of about a month, the general strike went from a pipe dream that even the most optimistic organizers didn't think could happen until potentially maybe 20, 28, to something that happened here. We saw a one day general strike in Minneapolis and everything is different now. People from SEIU are calling for general strikes. It's become a demand, it's become a tactic, and it's become a term that is on the tongues of people who never would dare speak of it before. And on this show, we are going to talk about the history of general strikes, how they happen, how they're organized, how they succeed, how they fail, and what the contemporary history of the tactic looks like now. When I originally planned this first episode, I was going to do a overview of about a hundred years of history of general strikes to try to get us roughly to the modern era. And then as soon as I, well, not as soon as I started writing that deeper into the process than it should have been, I realized there was absolutely no way I could cover a Hundred years of general strikes in one episode. What I kept coming back to was one specific strike, a strike that most of you have never heard of. So the general strike in Shanghai in 1925, what became known as the May 30 Boom Movement. I want to begin here because intellectually, most of you have never heard of it. Emotionally, you already know everything about it. Now, I have written about this strike before. It was, in fact, the first thing I ever wrote about for behind the Bastards, an episode about a Chinese warlord named Zhong Zongchong. But about a quarter of those episodes were about what became the May 30th movement. And so I am going to recap a little bit of what I talked about in that episode and talk about some different stuff. And, yeah, we're going to get you introduced to how you get a general strike. And you know how the course of these things can go with a strike that will look shockingly familiar to anyone who has lived through this year, which is to say this is a strike that starts when an occupying army has taken over a city and starts fucking killing people. So a little bit of background about what is going on in China in the 1920s, 1925 is in the middle of what is called the warlord period in China, which is a period where Go listen to the Bastards episodes. The short version of this is that after the 1911 revolution that had overthrown the Chinese imperial system, China became split between a bunch of warlords composed out of different sort of parts of the armies. Now, also in this period, large parts of China are under the direct control of foreign occupiers. These are countries like Japan, the uk, France, Russia. I think there's an American concession sort of in there somewhere. And these countries just own parts of China. And for our purposes, they also own parts of Shanghai. And these things, both the territories they occupy and sometimes literally, you know, the occupation is they own a rail line. When I say they own a rail line, it's not just a company or even the country owning the rail line. They physically own the territory, so it's theirs. Like, this rail line belongs to Japan. So the land around the rail line belongs to Japan. And they can enforce their laws in it. And this is how it works. Also in Shanghai, inside of these concessions, there is an armed occupation. And in Shanghai, there are British or French or Japanese police and military personnel there who do law enforcement and will just kill you. Where, my dear listener, have we seen this before? I leave that as an exercise to the reader. Listener, I guess you're the Listener. Now, this state of affairs came to a Head in May 1925, when a Japanese foreman was meeting with Chinese union organizers at what was basically supposed to be a contract negotiation session. There's a team of Japanese foremen and business people there and a group of Chinese union organizers. And the details of what exactly happened are very, very sketchy. But a brawl broke out and the conclusion of the brawl was that a Japanese foreman killed a fairly well known local union leader. Now, the police had also arrested several of the workers who had been in the negotiations and continued to hold them even after a massive demonstration for the Chinese union organizer who'd been killed's funeral. So on May 30, protesters gathered outside of a police station run by the British to demand the release of their comrades. This set off a climactic confrontation that changed the face of Chinese history forever. The British opened fire on the crowd, killed 10 people and wounded 50 more. Now, half a decade ago, when I first wrote about this for Cool Zone, I read a quote from the great Chinese author and anarchist Ba Jian. This is quoted from author Waldron's book From Border China's turning point, 1924. And I want to return to it now for reasons that I think will immediately become apparent. This is about a student who witnessed the killings. At the entrance to Yunnan Road, he saw the child who had been killed a short while before. He thought. About half an hour ago, the crowd was marching peacefully towards the police station to ask the police to set free students who had been unjustly arrested. They thought the police were human beings endowed with reason and human sympathy, that human blood flowed in their veins. They thought that uniforms and weapons could not have destroyed their human nature. But reality proved they were bloodthirsty beasts. On the most crowded street of the city, they deliberately slaughtered unarmed people. For this, there was no precedent in Chinese history. The imperialist oppression that had endured for so many years ached like a deep wound in his heart. He struggled inwardly. He felt the time for patience was over. He felt he wanted to spill his blood, to sacrifice his young life, that he might show that not all among his people were lambs that allowed themselves to be led without resistance to slaughter. He looked again at the corpse of the murdered child. His eyes shone with fire. His whole body began to burn as though on fire. His heart beat violently. You, dear listener, understand this. When I first quoted this passage in 2021, it was about George Floyd. Now it's about Renee Goode and Alex Pretty. You understand the horror, the suffering, the rage, the overwhelming fire to do something. You understand that they are like us, and you understand why they fought. What followed was the largest to that point general strike in the history of Shanghai. 200,000 people walked off the job almost immediately in the first wave of strikes. The strikes spread to almost every major city in China in some form or another. Massive student protests began. Entire cities rose as 1,250,000 people went on strike in Hong Kong. Students, workers, business owners and gangsters stood precariously as one to drive out the armed men occupying their cities. In an instant, the world changed. Things that were impossible the day before suddenly became commonplace. People flooded the streets. They were attacked by cops. They fought back. And for three months, they held on. Now, this was a much rougher time than even contemporary 2026America. We are in a little bit going to get to the part where a bunch of people's heads get put on spikes by the government. And, you know, unlike 1925 Shanghai, for example, American cities are not contrary to the beliefs of a significant portion of the American conservative population, run by networks of organized crime who control every facet of political life and also economic life and also social life. To the extent social that if you're a Union organizer in 1920 Shanghai, you are effectively a mob organizer, both in the sense that you probably have to belong to one of the organizations and to the extent that the people you are actually organizing at this time are like you're organizing the mob guys who bring in workers to serve as the migrant worker population. This is also actually an important aspect of the strikes in 1925, which is that much of the labor population in Shanghai are migrant workers have been brought in from other parts of the country by organized crime. Now, obviously, that's not. That is not really how migrant labor works in the United States. But, you know, to some extent, the pressures of the labor discipline are very similar in that. Right. The threat that is held over the heads of migrant workers is that armed men will come in the night for you. And right now, what we are witnessing is the armed men coming into the night. But, you know, as much as I talk about sort of the differences between these movements, I think the immediate question for our purposes is, are there things that we can learn from this movement? And I think the answer is yes. But in order to get to the what can we learn from this? We have to talk a bit about how the movement collapsed. So I said that the movement held on for about three months. That was in Shanghai. The history of some of the other cities is different. And we kind of don't have time to, for example, divert. Talk about general strike in Hong Kong, where the primary method that people used was they simply left the city and went back home, which solve some of the problems that we're going to be talking about in a little bit. But okay, in Shanghai, what happened to this movement and why did it fall apart? So I think there are roughly three factors and I think the first two are actually more important than the third one, which might be surprising when we get to them. But the first two factors were people being able to eat and the pressure that that put on the unions and secondarily betrayal from the business elites that they had allied with to get the strikes to work. And the third is peer repression. And the scale of the peer repression here is astonishing. I mean, some of the, like one of the guys who runs this strike is just executed by the state. Again, we're, I'm promising we're going to get to the heads on pikes in a bit. But the repression isn't what killed the strike. It was the, the problem of how do people eat? And it was the pressure from the business elite. So we're going to talk about the business elite first. Now when I say the business elite here in, in the early days of the movement, and this is a tension that's going to sort of haunt the Chinese Nationalist Party for its entire existence until it splits from the Communist completely. And even later than that, they're in a very, very uneasy alliance with left wing students, workers who are rapidly becoming left wing because this is also a city that was not enormously politicized until now and suddenly becomes politicized in ways that seemed impossible like a few years before. But there's, there's a tension between them because initially these sort of patriotic business owners are really, really pissed off that the foreign occupiers are murdering people in their city and sort of Nationalist and communist leaders are able to sort of broker alliances with them and they're able to broker alliances with organized crime, which is less important for our purposes. I cannot emphasize enough how important the organized crime people are in the history to the extent that like Chiang Kai Shek, who you, you may know as like the leader of the Nationalist Party and the guy who's eventually going to run Taiwan after losing the civil war. Chiang Kai Shek was an organized crime guy like he was in the Green Gang. So like, you know, very important to their story, less important to our story, but they act in a very similar way to the business owners, which is that in the beginning and this is something that we saw in Minneapolis too during their one day general strike, which is that a lot of business owners, either out of, you know, just actual genuine rage and grief over just the raw fucking horror of these monsters grabbing people from their homes and shooting people in the streets, cooperated it shut their businesses down for the day. Now obviously there are other business owners who do this because they are producers. Am I allowed to say that? They looked outside and were like, it doesn't take a weatherman to see which way the winds are blowing, right? You know, they saw what was going on and we're like, okay, maybe my workers aren't going to show up or if I don't publicly support this, it's gonna get real fucked for me because everyone else around us. And that meant that there was a lot of cooperation from businesses. But we also saw very quickly after like a kind of a whole bunch of businesses and like sports organizations too, like signed a thing that was like, ah, we need to restore order. Do do, do, do, do, maybe end the occupation, but also please stop, stop causing disruptions. Protesters. Now in the Chinese case, what we see as the strike goes on is that the business elites began to see the, the strikes themselves and the marches and the fighting with the police and particularly the fact that they were also not making money and they were also putting their own money into keeping the strikes going as a problem because they are business people and the only thing that they really care about fundamentally is making money. There's a Marx line I wish I had here about like what the national character of Britain was. And it turned out that its only fundamental principle was land rent. And that, that's like this, right? Like at some point these people are like, okay, well given the choice between imperialist occupation and me losing money and my workers gaining power, I will choose imperialist occupation. And this is something that in cross class movements like this specifically, if you are trying to do a general strike, you're eventually going to have to deal with this, which is that a lot of particularly large businesses and you know, some small business owners will fall in line with this too, right? Will eventually get to a point where they're like, I would rather keep making money than, you know, not have my neighbors taken away. And that is unbelievably fucking bleak week. But that's, you know, like that's one of the things that killed this general strike in China. And eventually in the face of this, right, we come to the second problem, which is that people needed to eat. So the union federation that Set up had been just sort of giving people money so that they could eat. But they eventually start to run out of money. And they don't really have a way to organize the sort of, of production, movement and logistics of providing everyone with food without relying on the bankrolling of those business owners. You know, this becomes a problem because it means that they're suddenly getting attacked by portions of the workers who aren't supposed to be their base because they don't have food. And those people also just start like walking up the Chamber of Commerce meetings and walking in and beating up the Chamber of Commerce people for not paying them and then like eating the banquet food for the Chamber of Commerce is a great story in a book called Shanghai on Strike by Elizabeth Ferry, who's a renowned scholar of Chinese labor history, about this. Very funny. There's lots of absolutely wild stories from this strike. One of the sort of recurring themes of this period of union organizing. And again, this is a really rough time, right? Imagine like gangster movies, 19, like 20s New York. And like, that's Shanghai. But like, the gangs are way, way, way, way stronger. So like, the way politics works to a large extent is that people beat the shit out of each other and like call hits on each other. And the city is, technically speaking, it's run by like, what is a warlord army. And then beneath the warlord army, there are all of these organized criminal organizations. But like, you know, the unions have this thing called dog beating brigades where. Oh, no, dog beating brigades. Like, if you like publicly started scabbing or you very publicly were standing against the strike. Like, the dog beating brigade would show up in the middle of the night and it was just like a bunch of guys with hatchets and they would just like beat the out of you. And this was just like a normal thing that was happening between these strikes. So this whole period of Chinese history is nuts. It's wild. There's so much going on that's just. I. I don't know, they had, they had the dog beating brigade. I guess in the American context we'd call them like, like the scabby beating brigades or whatever. But, you know, it's a rough time for everyone. But what they kind of don't have without sort of business owners, they're never really able to sort of seize control of production and repurpose it towards, you know, keeping everyone fed. And I will say this is something that actually I think, think we are better at than they were in the sense of we are better at running the logistics of getting a bunch of people, food and the stuff that they need to survive. This is something we can look at in Minneapolis, where. And this is obviously coming from people's money. But a lot of the organizing in Minneapolis is about getting people who can't leave their homes food. We've also seen in the last day or so, tenant and labor union leaders are talking about a wrench strike in Minneapolis, which can help people, you know, not get evicted because they can't go to work. But it's also something that if you're going to do a general strike, yeah, you probably also have to do a wrench strike. But if you want to keep a general strike going, and this is something that we're going to get to a lot more in later episodes. The Seattle general strike is a very large example of this. If you want to keep this thing going, you have to take control of the places where you're working and, you know, have them provide the food for people and have them provide the resources that people need. But in this sort of context, almost everyone who's involved in this, this is their first general strike. What really happens here, right, is that the unions are forced to call off the strike. They get minor concessions in exchange from the foreign bosses. But what it does is politicize the entire city, and it politicizes all of China in a way that is going to shape all of the politics in the country forever. I guess, like, it's the thing that creates modern China is the politicization that comes out of this period. You know, it's what sort of transforms Chinese politics or something that was purely the almost purely domain of warlords into something that's now the domain of the Nationalists and the Communists. And obviously, you know, the military conflict is a large thing in this that we don't really have time to get into. But, you know, this period transforms the entire politics of China, right? People who had never thought about politics before, people who had never, you know, who had never, like, heard the words imperialism or like, heard the words like militarism, right, are suddenly in the streets talking about it. And they're talking about general strikes, and they're talking about how, how can we run these occupying armies out? And I want to sort of mention how this whole thing ends, right, which the people keep organizing and they keep fighting. And one year later, in 1926, the first of the uprisings begins now, the first uprising. And these three uprisings are all sort of, like, called by the Chinese Communist Party and their unions. The first one fails horribly, and the warlords Put the heads of workers they'd killed on pikes. They have these squads where there's two guys with broadswords and a guy with like a sheriff's badge, effectively, who go door to door. And if they find someone who they think had like handed out leaflets, they would execute them on the spot. This, this is the kind of repression they're dealing with. And they, they did it again. They tried again in, in 1927 and that one failed. And the second time, by the way it's worth mentioning, was supposed to be a general strike coordinated with an uprising and they fucked up the coordination of it.
- [135:42]
Garrison Davis
But it did also.
- [135:43]
Mia Wong
The second one was a 300, 000 strong general strike strike. And the third try was an 800,000 strong general strike. And they staged the interaction. And they run the warlord armies out of the city. And for a sort of brief, glorious moment, Shanghai is in the hands of its workers and their subsequent betrayal and slaughter by the USSR and Chiang Kai Shek, mostly Chiang Kai Shek. The USSR is also at fault here for telling them to keep allying with Chiang Kai Shek and the Nationalists. That's a story for another time, but I think to close. We are used to thinking that the times that we live in are unprecedented and in some ways they are. But people have fought our struggles before. People have fought, fought and died and won to stop the reign of men with guns over our cities. And if we learn the lessons of both their time and ours, if we use that knowledge to act in the moment of crisis, we can win. Conscience, history and the cries of the suffering demand it. So let's go win the war. We have a world to win and nothing to lose but our chains.
- [137:21]
Garrison Davis
This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crime bullying world and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today I'm joined by James Stout, Mia Wong and Robert Evans. This episode, we're covering the week February 11th to February 18th. Some small news items up top. Last week the FDA declined to review a new flu vaccine from Moderna. On February 12, Tom Homan announced that Operation Metro Surge has concluded and quote, a significant drawdown has already been underway this week and will continue through the next week. Unquote. Zoran Mamdani has ordered a new audit of city agencies to ensure compliance with sanctuary city laws in New York. And Stephen Colbert says that CBS refused to air his interview with Texas Democratic Senate candidate James talarico, citing the FCC's equal time rule despite this rule historically having an exception for late night talk show interviews, last month, FCC chairman Brendan Carr threatened to enforce the rule regardless of the well established precedent that excluded talk show interviews. And finally, the owner of a warehouse facility in Hutchins, Texas, has said that they won't sell or lease the building to the federal government as a detention facility. The city's mayor and council all opposed the project. Seizure by eminent domain is still possible.
- [138:39]
Emily Simpson
Yeah. And I guess with that, there's been campaigns in a couple of other small, traditionally conservative rural areas to not lease facilities for ice. And it's still a little unclear and I suspect it's kind of column A, column B, how much of this is, you know, NIMBYism, and how much of this is resistance to ICE specifically?
- [138:59]
Mick
Yeah, we covered a little of that in the episode I did on Social Circle, which is in Georgia last week. But I think it's fair to say both.
- [139:07]
Emily Simpson
Yeah. And obviously when I say NIMBYism, I don't mean it in a bad way. It's bad to have this in your backyard. But, like, their issue isn't a moral one. In some cases.
- [139:15]
Mick
Yeah. In some cases. I think in some cases it's little column A, little column B. Yeah, it's hard to tell. Yeah. And I think it's worth noting, for instance, hearing in Southern California, right. A town called Dulzura, pretty small town. Maybe you've heard of it from when the KKK did border patrols there back in the day. But the Border Patrol are trying to build a big new facility there and have been for some time called New Brownfield. There has been local opposition to that among people who are very like, people who I have spoken to who are otherwise conservative. And like, some of it is, yeah, I don't want this changing the character of the town. I don't want a giant detention center that would eclipse the population of this very small town. Some of it is also, like, I want them to be locking up people out here. We have a nice life out here and, you know, we have lots of fields and horses and space. And it seems like it would be really fucked up to have people detained out here. Like, I think, like, that that NIMBY impulse can sometimes, like, like, could still combine with even people who are not, you know, abolitionists. They don't want to be confronted with the horrors directly next to them.
- [140:21]
Emily Simpson
Yep. And we'll talk a little bit more about the numbers, like ICE's polling numbers, like how popular they are with Americans. But one of the things we've seen this year is that like they've been shedding support even from Republicans. So like, you know, whatever, whatever debate we have here that's like certainly not a non factor.
- [140:40]
Mick
Definitely.
- [140:40]
Emily Simpson
I think it's now time for us to talk about the biggest news story this week, which is that Shia LaBeouf was arrested in New Orleans during Mardi Gras after getting into a series of fights.
- [140:53]
Giorgio
Who?
- [140:56]
Emily Simpson
He was in the movie Holes.
- [140:58]
Garrison Davis
Oh, yeah.
- [140:58]
Emily Simpson
He was also in a different production called Holes, but not based on a book.
- [141:02]
Garrison Davis
He was in Holes. Yeah, I forgot.
- [141:03]
Emily Simpson
Yeah, it was in both Holes.
- [141:05]
Mick
So I don't know who this person is. I've never.
- [141:09]
Emily Simpson
Yeah, he's a, he's a child actor who is a. Who was very popular during the like early 2000s and has gone. He played the Indiana Jones's son in the reboot event or in the new. In the fourth Indiana Jones movie.
- [141:22]
Mick
God.
- [141:22]
Emily Simpson
And then he is. He is. He has since kind of fallen into madness and disrepute. He's a spousal abuser. He's repeatedly assaulted people in public. He showed up on that webcam white supremacists were drinking milk on once for reasons that are still to this day somewhat unclear to me. And he got into a fight in Mardi Gras, which is just a fun little bit of news. My favorite part of this is that he assaulted a guy. He was repeatedly restrained by members of a bar and whenever they would let him go because they just wanted him to leave, they didn't want to call the cops. He would then continue to attack the guy he was assaulting until they forced him. They were forced to call the police and have him arrested. And I've been in Mardi Gras over the last few days and let me tell you, getting arrested by the police during Mardi Gras, not easy. I don't have a lot to say about that other than I was surprised by the number of very political floats that I saw. Particularly at least one that was entirely paper mache ice guys in a very like non flattering way. There were a lot of like costumes and a number of like references on floats. There was a couple of pretty hideous caricatures of Trump on floats. And they all got like a widely positive reaction. And I find this interesting and I'm bringing this up because the research that I've largely been doing for the ED this week is trying to get a handle on like where Americans are polling right now and how popular or unpopular is the president and his agenda. Because like we. You see articles every week about like Trump's polls hit a new low or the most recent article that I think it's Gallup is no longer going to be doing presidential like popularity polling. But I wanted to get a look at like how the actual like parties and their agendas are holding up. And it's a pretty shocking gap between September, October, like fall of last year, and today. So In September of 2025, per Yuga of the Democratic Party had about a 64% unfavorable. So like 64% of polled Americans didn't like the Democratic Party. And a little less than 34% of Americans had a favorable opinion of the Democratic Party. And if you actually look at the graphs for, for those that YouGov presents, they're basically making like a wine glass shape, right? So what that means is unfavorability is moving up and favorability is moving down rapidly. Like at the time at which those polls were taken in September of last year. Meanwhile, the Republican Party, neither party was popular but the Republican Party, the wine glass shape was a lot more muted. It's more like a shot glass. 55.4% of Americans polled by YouGov expressed an unfavorable opinion of the Republican party, and about 42.3 expressed a favorable opinion. You can compare this to October 2025 polling by Pew Research, which showed something similar. 64% of Americans were frustrated with the Republican Party. 75% of Americans reported being frustrated with the Democratic Party. 49% of Americans polled replied that they were angry at the Republican Party. 50% reported being angry at the Democratic Party. Similarly, Republicans, 36% of Americans felt hopeful about the Republican Party. 28% of Americans felt hopeful about the Democratic party. And then 27% of Americans were proud of the Republican Party, 16% Democratic Party. Those are pretty bleak numbers for the Democrats coming in the fall of 2025. Like that is kind of black pilling stuff, right? Yeah, this was in the fall of last year. Pretty rapid change from where things had been about four years ago. For example, in September of 2021, about 64% of Americans had expressed frustration with the Democratic Party as opposed to 75% four years later. So that's all fall of last year. Now between when the polls that I read to you came out and now we've had a cut, several major things happen. One of the more significant was the long shutdown, which was disastrous for Republican favorability and for Trump's own favorability. And we also had a significant, I mean, obviously in LA and in Chicago, ICE had been doing very terrible and very like, like, you know, I guess I should say like documented crimes, like horrible things that were spread widely on social media. But that has also accelerated massively in the first couple of weeks of 2026.
- [145:55]
Mick
Yeah.
- [145:56]
Emily Simpson
And what we're seeing now in more recent polls taken in late January and from anywhere from like kind of early January to late January and early February is a significant reverse. So NBC News's decision desk collated a bunch of different polls like Daily Mail, Marquette, Wall street journal, Yahoo, YouGov, Fox News, Emerson. And over the last month or so, you're looking at an average spread of all of these polls of about negative 19.9% favorability for the Republican Party and about negative 12.8% favorability for the Democratic Party. So when you think back to those numbers from last fall, that's a pretty dramatic change and it kind of correlates to a dramatic change in Trump's own favorability, which has gone down by about 12% per the average of those polls. That kind of aggregated by NBC News desk, their article notes, quote, ipsos polling released in late January found 51% of Americans say Trump's immigration policy is on the wrong track. Amazingly, just a year ago, Americans said Republicans have a better plan, policy and approach than Democrats on immigration by a 22 point margin. Now that advantage is down to 5 points. So while Trump is underwater with immigration, his and the Republican Party's policies towards immigration are still more popular than the Democratic Party's responses to immigration, but they have also collapsed in terms of like the gap between those two things. Again, 22 point margin to a 5 point lead is a, is a pretty dramatic narrowing. And one of the things that has come along with this is an increasing agreement among Americans that ICE has not only gone too far, but needs to be, if not abolished entirely, then severely curtailed. And a lot of Americans, a shocking amount, currently support abolishing ICE entirely. A PBS News NPR Marist poll released recently found that a majority of Americans feel ICE is making the country less safe and has gone too far. Six in 10Americans disapprove of what ICE is doing. Only about three in 10 approve of it. So by a two to one margin, Americans disapprove ICE's operations to like, approve of their behavior. This is a very like political breakdown. About 91% of Democrats disapprove of ICE. 60 cent of independents disapprove of ICE. Meanwhile, 73% of Republicans approve of ICE. But even that number has, has dropped. Yeah, fairly recently, right?
- [148:29]
Giorgio
Yes.
- [148:30]
Emily Simpson
In fact, the percentage of Americans that believe ICE hasn't gone far enough dropped from 18% to 12% over the last year. And only about 22% of Americans feel like ICE is doing a good job compared to 26% of Americans a year ago. So we're seeing, like, pretty unequivocally Americans rejecting the Republican tactics on immigration and they tend to be blaming ICE for it. Right. Like, that's one of the things that's most interesting to me is that both ICE and President Trump have seen the most dramatic collapses in public support, which suggests to me that, like, Americans are kind of tying these two things together. Currently, per YouGov, as of January 24, 2026, more Americans support abolishing ICE than oppose it. Now, this does not mean a majority of Americans support abolishing ICE. I've seen some people misstate that that 46% of US adults as polled by YouGov, somewhat or strongly support abolishing ICE. 12% are not sure. 41% somewhat or strongly oppose abolishing ICE. Yeah, that's still pretty striking.
- [149:38]
Mick
Yeah, it's a plurality.
- [149:41]
Mia Wong
Right.
- [149:41]
Mick
Maybe now would be a good time to talk a little bit about, like, where the Democrats, different Democrats or different wings of the Democrat Party are on abolishing ice. Because I think it's one of these areas where, like, the further up the party you go, the more detached from that public opinion you get. So maybe we'll start with Hakeem Jeffries, Democrat leader in the House. Here's him on the Joy Reid show on the topic of abolishing ice.
- [150:09]
Emily Simpson
Why not lead and say abolish ice?
- [150:12]
James Stout
Because what you're telling us is you want our taxpayer dollars to pay for a lawless, mass armed agency to continue terrorizing our cities.
- [150:21]
Garrison Davis
And I'm trying to figure out how
- [150:23]
James Stout
you as a leader can be telling Americans that their taxpayer dollars should be going twice. I don't understand anything that you just said when I spoke English. I don't understand anything that you've just said to me when I've made clear that taxpayer dollars should be used to make life more affordable for the American people, not brutalize or kill them.
- [150:44]
Mick
That's the whole reason we're in this fight right now.
- [150:47]
Emily Simpson
That's the whole reason the DHS is
- [150:49]
James Stout
getting ready to shut down. That's the reason why you agree with me, Joy.
- [150:53]
Emily Simpson
Abolish ice, that is.
- [150:55]
James Stout
Listen, I'm going to use the language
- [150:57]
Mia Wong
that I want to use.
- [150:58]
James Stout
You can use the language that you want to use.
- [151:02]
Mick
You can see Jeffrey's visibly Kind of tense when the phrase abolish ICE is used. Right. Like, he's. He wants nothing to do with it. His immediate response is, is to. To go to affordability. I do want to note that when he was previously asked if he would use the appropriations process to rein in ice, he did exactly the same thing.
- [151:25]
Garrison Davis
But why not use the appropriations process
- [151:28]
James Stout
to rein in ice, Leader Jeffries.
- [151:30]
Giorgio
No, what I'm focusing on, what I'm
- [151:32]
Garrison Davis
focused on right now, Chad, is to
- [151:34]
Emily Simpson
make life better for the American people,
- [151:36]
James Stout
people, by extending the Affordable Care act tax credits, which, by the way, a
- [151:40]
Garrison Davis
lot of folks in this institution believe was not possible.
- [151:44]
James Stout
But Democrats made clear before the government
- [151:47]
Garrison Davis
was shut down that we were in
- [151:49]
James Stout
this fight until we win this fight on behalf of the Americans. Pass the cuts, lower the cost, save health care. That's our objective
- [151:58]
Mick
there. He does the same thing. Right. He goes back to affordability, which is something the Democrats hurt have done for the last year and a half. Right. When asked to, like, take a strong leadership stance on ice, far too much of their leadership has instead, like, tried to deflect to affordability. I do want to note that, like, they are now doing exactly what he was deflecting from there.
- [152:18]
Giorgio
Right.
- [152:18]
Garrison Davis
Yeah.
- [152:19]
Mick
And that was only less than a month ago.
- [152:22]
Garrison Davis
It's interesting because it's like this cowardice on, like, specific terms and messaging.
- [152:27]
Mick
Yeah.
- [152:27]
Garrison Davis
Even though they are using the appropriations process to try to rain in ice, like that is that. Yeah, that is what they are doing now. But it's like a complete, complete cowardice around, actually. Like.
- [152:37]
Mick
Yeah.
- [152:37]
Garrison Davis
Trying to, like, use, like, public pressure to your advantage at the moment.
- [152:41]
Mick
Like, yeah, he's doing the thing and almost like, failing to. It's not that he's doing the thing, you know, as many of us would wish he did, but, like, he's failing to take the easy win.
- [152:51]
Garrison Davis
Yeah.
- [152:52]
Mick
Like, because of, like, you say this, like, institutional cowardice or like these. It's like there's some kind of red line rhetorically for Jeffries and other leadership Democrats that they will not cross. And I have to believe that some of that comes from what they see as, like, the long legacy of 2020
- [153:12]
Garrison Davis
or like, perceptions of the Democratic Party is, like, too far to the left is. Is too extreme or something.
- [153:17]
Mick
Yeah. That they. That, like the. Specifically the perception that they, like, attempted to abolish the institution of policing, which was not really anything that they had that was not in their policy platform. Right. There were not Democrat leaders saying, we're going to do away with the cops, in fact, biden was talking about how we need to fund the police, not defund the police in 2020. Right. Yeah. But nonetheless, there seems to be this real. It's very hard for them to break that rhetorical boundary. It's not entirely just Jeffries on this. Seven Dems crossed party lines in late January to vote for a DHS funding bill. So we got Representative Henry Queller of Texas.
- [153:56]
Mia Wong
Worst.
- [153:57]
Mick
The.
- [153:57]
Garrison Davis
The.
- [153:57]
Mia Wong
The worst Democratic Congressman.
- [154:00]
Garrison Davis
Holy shit. What a fucking asshole.
- [154:05]
Mick
Texas Dems hit different. And like, specifically like Rio Grande Valley. Democrats are a. A different breed.
- [154:11]
Mia Wong
God, he sucks so much.
- [154:13]
Mick
There's Jared golden of Maine, Mary Glusenkamp Perez of Washington, Laura Gillan, Don Davis of North Carolina, Laurie Gillen is New York, Tom Swozzi of New York, and Vicente Gonzalez of Texas. This is not. It is not a position that he's unique to. To Jeffries. Right. Like, this is idea that, like, perhaps there needs to be some reform of ice, but. But abolishing it would go far, too far. Other Democrats have introduced an act which would essentially move funding from ICE to local law enforcement. So it would take that $75 billion budget allocation to ICE and move it to local cops. Right. This is called the Providing Useful Budgets for Localities to Invest in Cops By Substituting six appropriations from Federal Enforcement to Yield Results Act.
- [155:06]
Mia Wong
Holy. No wonder these people's favorability is, like, negative 1 trillion percent.
- [155:11]
Mick
Yeah.
- [155:13]
Mia Wong
Good Lord.
- [155:13]
Mick
It's what we call a backronym in that they have started with the word public safety and then made a really horrendous attempt at turning that into an acronym. There is also, like, a wing of the Democratic Party right, on the left, which is more forthright about abolishing ice. Here's a clip of AOC talking about why ICE should be abolished.
- [155:35]
Garrison Davis
And this is at an event in Queens.
- [155:37]
Mick
Yeah.
- [155:38]
Garrison Davis
ICE is a very young agency relative to many others. Enforcement of people who committed crimes that were undocumented or had visas used to be under the Department of Justice. And in the Department of Justice, if someone wants to come to your house, you need a judge, you need an entire judicial process, you need a warrant to ensure that your constitutional liberties are taken, are respected. You need all of it. What they did was that they took ICE out. Well, they took immigration enforcement out of the doj, which had very tight reins on what you're allowed to do. They take that, they put it into
- [156:18]
Mia Wong
this new agency that they put at
- [156:20]
Garrison Davis
the time, which is the Department of Homeland Security. First of all, in what world does FEMA belong under the same umbrella as ice? It makes no sense at all. All.
- [156:30]
Giorgio
No sense at all.
- [156:32]
Garrison Davis
And what happened is that once you take that enforcement piece out of that agency, you. They then start to answer to nobody. Even though I. Technically, statutorily, their responsibility is just supposed to be on immigration enforcement. They are now expanding their data collection to US Citizens, to everyone on this soil. They are waving these phones around and saying that they're implementing facial recognition technology to a centralized database. We have to fight this tooth and nail.
- [157:06]
Giorgio
We need to defund it.
- [157:08]
Garrison Davis
We need to not allow this to be collected by private companies. A lot of what we need to do is not just revisit section 702. We need to abolish ICE and we
- [157:20]
Giorgio
need to have comprehensive changes to that data.
- [157:26]
Garrison Davis
One thing I do want to note about her statements is that during the appropriations process, she did give statements about how she was pushing to defund as an agency. And this did cause a reaction from some, I'll call them overly online leftists claiming that she had, like, changed positions from wanting to abolish, to defund, that this is some sort of slide. And then she then had to follow up, was saying, well, currently, the way to restrict ICE and lead to abolishing it is through defunding it. So that's what we're doing through the appropriations process. No, my position has not changed. I still think that the agency should be abolished.
- [158:01]
Mick
Yeah, yeah.
- [158:15]
Emily Simpson
There's a broad issue we had, which was that at the end of 2020, as a result of. Of the federal agents that were in American cities and had been videoed brutalizing citizens in places like Portland, there was a lot of anger about dhs. In particular, I wrote a column for Business Insider about, like, look, this. This agency even is going to remain under Biden, but if we don't cut the legs out from under the entire agency, it's basically set up to be the President's secret police.
- [158:42]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [158:43]
Emily Simpson
And broadly speaking, the Democrats didn't do anything to stop it. But I also, like, I guess where I am on this is. I think it's kind of counterproductive at this point. The failures of the Biden administration, I think, are quite manifest in what the Trump administration is doing right now. And what I want to focus on is the fact that we've had, in the space of several months, Americans become more than twice as likely to support abolishing ice, which is both a fragile coalition, because the fact that the number has changed so rapidly means that it could potentially change back. Like, I don't feel solid in counting on that to be the permanent state of affairs. But it introduces an opportunity, and it's an opportunity to build support to destroy this agency. And I think it's probably too much to hope for DHS as a whole and anything close to the near term. But the. The fact that during the Biden administration, so much got punted on. I don't know. Like, we're. We're past that. We have the opportunity now.
- [159:50]
James Stout
Yeah.
- [159:50]
Emily Simpson
We have the anger now. I. I do. I retain my worry. And I. I would say almost one of my biggest political fears is that 2026 and 2028 go well for Democrats. They do again, what happened under the Biden administration.
- [160:03]
Mia Wong
Yeah. And they leave all these things intact.
- [160:05]
Emily Simpson
But one of the big differences that we have, at least right now, is that at no point was abolishing ICE polling the way it is right now during the Biden or the first Trump administration.
- [160:15]
Mick
Yeah.
- [160:16]
Emily Simpson
And I think we have to take advantage of that. There's momentum right now.
- [160:21]
Mick
Like, this is a crucial time, not just like we're talking here in terms of, like, abolishing ICE moves us back to the 2003 norm. Right. Like, what it doesn't do is fix the fundamental issue here, which is that there are not legal pathways for people to come to the US and then need to be. And, like, I think, like, now is the time for people who are involved in Democratic politics. Right. To agitate for, like, a. A genuine reform package. I don't think we will ever see support like this again for legalization of undocumented people, for dreamers. Right. Or people who are impacted by Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which is a policy that came in place under Obama. Like, now is the time for substantial immigration reform. I say this knowing that this will not fix a problem. Like, more than most people, you know, I have seen the horrors of our immigration system firsthand. But, like, there is a moment right now that we could change things for the better. And I share Robert's worry that if Democrats get, like, an easy win even in the midterms, that we might not get that. And, like, what we saw under Biden was a big pointer to what we're seeing under Trump. That essentially the DHS was almost impossible for him to control. Yeah. In that he acquiesced to oads. He is still responsible for them. Like, the buck stops with him. He's president. I'm not certain that he planned it, but nonetheless, it continued to happen for months and months and months under his presidency. Right. Like. Like, it was very obvious the way this was going to go if we got another Trump presidency. And if they do that again, we're just setting the table for things to get worse again.
- [162:09]
Emily Simpson
Right. And I think, James, the task before us is twofold. Right. Because on one hand, we have to reform the system by which people gain legal acceptance to live in this country. And that also includes, I think, there needs to be a push for some sort of federal law that will make it impossible or at least much harder to reverse these acceptances and to do things like nullify or cancel green cards and permanent residency, like the administration is doing right now. Like both. We need increased pathways and we need increased resilience to promise people that, hey, if you go through all of these hoops to become a legal resident or a citizen or whatever, it can't just get pulled away the next time a Republican wins office.
- [162:57]
Mick
Yeah.
- [162:58]
Emily Simpson
And then on the other side of things, you have this vast, uncontrollable, militant agency built as the armed wing of the presidency that has to be destroyed because it can't exist in a democracy.
- [163:13]
Mick
Yeah. It's not compatible.
- [163:15]
Emily Simpson
And then you have. I mean, I would extend that to DHS as a whole. But it's my same issue with, like, like, if we can defund ICE right now, I'm always in favor of taking away some of their money. That's not the extent of what I think should happen to ice. It's just like, it's a salient. Right. Like, you have to look at it that way. It would be as if you're like, well, it's not worth winning the battle of Stalingrad because that doesn't give us Berlin. It's like, well, but these are steps, you know, you try to damage and reduce the agency's power and ability to function while you're continuing. And I guess the worry about that, too, is that if you do defund ice, if they. Because we've had some. Trump has made a couple comments about worrying that, like, we need to reduce kind of the tempo at which ICE is operating because it's bad for them. So that is kind of one of my concerns, that maybe if they, if they pull back on the throttle a little bit, the, the, the rage will decline enough that there's not this kind of motivation behind abolishing. But I feel like that's just a fear you kind of have to eat as opposed to not trying to stop and reduce the harms the agency does in the immediate term while you're working long term for abolition.
- [164:26]
Mick
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [164:28]
Emily Simpson
I did want to talk a little about other numbers, because immigration is obviously a major issue for American voters. It's an issue people pick who they're going to vote for the presidency on. It's one of them, but it's not the main one. As a general rule, throughout most of modern political history, the kind of top issue for Americans is the economy. And if the economy is bad, it is very hard for your party to stay in power. If the economy is good, it is a lot easier for your party to stay in power. Right. Like these are fairly basic facts of political life in the United States, always with some caveats, but that, that it bears looking at. How do Americans feel about the economy and who do they blame for the fact that they feel badly about the economy? And per Politico, which carried out a recent survey, about 46% of Americans say the cost of living is the worst they can remember it ever being. This includes 37% of people who voted for Trump in 2024. And Americans pretty like significantly agree that this is a Trump problem. Inflation, the fact that they can't afford things is on him because he's the president. Again, 46% of Americans say it's Trump's economy and his administration is responsible for rising costs.
- [165:44]
Mick
Yeah.
- [165:45]
Emily Simpson
And this is true both among Republicans and Democrats, which is very interesting to me. A percentage of Americans, based on their vote in the 2424 election, 53% of Harris voters in 2024 say the cost of living is the worst they've seen it. And again, 37% of Trump voters in 2024 feel the same way. So, so that is, it's an example of something that we've talked about and wondered about on this show a lot, which is like, how much does reality break through the fever swamps? And this is suggesting that, like, to a pretty solid degree that actually Trump is, I still think he's got a floor of somewhere around 30% of Americans who will follow him into the pits of hell, even if it means shoveling themselves into it. But that number used to be like 40%. Right. And it does seem to be declining. This is being treated as a five alarm fire among the Trump White House, which is interesting to me for a couple of reasons. You know, anytime you talk with especially people on the left about, but also increasingly a lot of Democrats about the midterm elections in the 2028 elections, a thing you have to deal with is people saying, but are there going to be elections? Right. And you know, it's, I don't dismiss those concerns out of hand. Obviously, in Part because the administration is talking right now about having ICE agents in polling places. Right? Yeah, you do have to to acknowledge that as a concern. But at the same time, I think if you're looking at this rationally, you have to note that the Trump administration internally is acting as if there will be elections and that those will be competitive elections. They are worried about the economy, they are worried about their polling, and they are taking actions to try to mitigate the worries that they have, which they wouldn't be doing if they were already sure there's never going to be another election. Right. And that is important to remember. Doesn't mean there's not a danger, doesn't mean they won't try shit if they lose. But it does mean that they are treating these political issues as political issues that they have to deal with via messaging. There was an article in Fox News recently about Trump's team huddling to decide on midterm messaging. I'm going to quote from that now. The meeting, which was confirmed to Fox News by sources familiar with the gathering, was hosted by White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles and Deputy Chief of Staff James Blair, who is steering Trump's political strategy. According to sources, the message during a slide presentation by chief pollster and chief strategist and strategist Tony Fabrizio was that the economy will be the top issue in the minds of voters and the White House needs to spotlight its efforts on easing affordability. The meeting was held as the GOP works to defend their control of the Senate and their razor thin House majority in November's midterm elections. Republicans are also dealing with the president's continued underwater approval ratings and a slew of surveys, including the latest Fox News polling, that indicates Americans are pessimistic about the economy. And publicly, the administration's claim is that Americans are happy with the economy. The economy's the best it's ever been. Look at how good the Dow is. It's over 50,000, right?
- [168:39]
Mink
Yeah.
- [168:40]
Emily Simpson
But everything we're hearing internally, like all of the reports that from people inside the administration about, like, what's going on day to day is that they're wide awake and worried over the fact that their economic numbers are completely dogshit. Now, what does this mean for the midterm elections? Well, very few people that I have found who are like credible analysts don't expect the Democrats to retake the House. Right.
- [169:06]
Garrison Davis
Meaning most credible analysts do think the Dems are likely to retake the House.
- [169:13]
Emily Simpson
That said, there's fairly few people who expect a 2018 style Democratic blowout out among like the, the professional poll watchers and stuff, which is, if you remember, the Democrats flipped about 41 seats. There's a couple of reasons for this. Right. And I found a good article in the Hill that's kind of analyzing like why we shouldn't be expecting some of the exuberance that you're seeing on social media about like early elections and how bad Trump's numbers are is maybe making people overly optimistic about like, like flipping all of Congress to Democratic control, which is not currently the likeliest outcome. And there's a couple of reasons for this. One of them is that as unpopular as Trump is, and I've hit on that quite a lot, the Democratic Party's overall favorability is at about 33%, which is 9 points lower than the Republican Party's favorability and, you know, depending on the poll, 5 to 10 points lower than Trump's own favorability. This is based on a Marquette Law School, but. Right. So Trump is very unpopular and so with the Republican Party, but people don't like the Democrats. The Democratic Party as a whole, people like individual Democrats, a lot of people like their congressperson, a lot of people like whoever it is they want to see as the presidential candidate. You know, you can look at, you know, you've got folks who really like Mamdani or really like Pritzker, but as a whole, voters, including Democratic voters, don't feel very positively towards the Democratic Party Party, in many cases more negatively still than they feel about the Republican Party. That started to turn around. But if you're kind of hoping that there's going to be like a full on switch that makes it immediately possible to successfully impeach President Trump, that is extraordinarily unlikely to come in 2026. Right. Which doesn't mean that it's unlikely to have a good result. Republicans losing control of Congress is a good result. Sold. Right. There's just a lot less. I mean, there's a lot less. Even if you're kind of taking the unfavorability of the Democratic Party out of it, there's a lot fewer seats up for grabs right now in 2018. And when that, you know, the Democrats flipped 41 seats, there were 75 competitive races this year heading into the midterms. There were only 18. Right. There's a lot less that can flip. And I don't think Republicans are likely to lose control of the Senate.
- [171:33]
Mia Wong
It.
- [171:34]
Emily Simpson
Right. And the polling shows things being pretty razor thin there. Democrats have about a 4% advantage, according to economist YouGov polling right now in the congressional midterms and there's a three point margin of error. So you're looking at like a lead, but not enough of one for a complete fucking blowout. Right. There has been some more positive data, like kind of right before we came on to record this, I looked at some charts by focal data that was kind of breaking down midterm voting intention by groups and looking at like likely voters. And this is always kind of a little bit like voodoo, right, in terms of how you're trying to like, well, how likely is a likely voter and how do we like factor in realistically, are they going to show up in anyway? If you're kind of assuming that like people who self report as likely voters will only actually vote about a third of the time. Per this study, Democrats are ahead by about seven points in a generic House ballot. So, you know, that's kind of where we are right now. I think we're looking at a midterm season that's going to go well for the Democrats, but I don't think we're looking at a midterm season that delivers us from the Republican Party being able to ram through legislation. I think our kind of best case scenario is one in which they have to give major concessions because the Democrats have, you know, flipped the House at the very least, like, and that's, that's big. But I, I don't think, I don't think Trump's going to get impeached starting January of next year.
- [173:12]
Mick
Yeah.
- [173:13]
Mia Wong
The one thing I will say about the polling data is that so obviously Democrats tend to perform better in special elections because to vote in a special election you have to be, be a higher interest voter. And that also special election cycles get driven by immediate like, anger over stuff. And there's a bunch of different factors that drive special election turnout. And also the Democrats have been absolutely obliterating the Republicans in all the special elections that have been happening recently. Or, and even in the cases where they lose, they're losing by very small margins in places where Trump was winning.
- [173:46]
Emily Simpson
Blowouts. Yeah.
- [173:47]
Mia Wong
So I think, think if, if you want to be optimistic, I think that's the case for optimism. But also. Yeah, like, we're not going to have all of our problems magically solved by the midterms.
- [173:58]
Mick
Yeah.
- [173:58]
Emily Simpson
Yes. To specify on that, what you were saying, there was a, a special election in Tennessee and Republican Matt Van Epps beat the Democrat afton Bain by 9 points, but Trump had won in 2024 there by 22 points.
- [174:15]
Mink
Yeah.
- [174:15]
Mia Wong
Yeah, and like, like a few. We talked about this on the show, but like last year there was, there was an election in, like, a special election in western Iowa that Trump had won by double digits and the Democrats won by double digits. And that kind of thing shouldn't be happening.
- [174:30]
Emily Simpson
It sure shouldn't.
- [174:31]
Mia Wong
No, it is. And, you know, so that, that's, that, that's the optimistic case.
- [174:36]
Emily Simpson
And hey, like, I, I've just come in saying, like, hey, don't expect Congress to be completely flipped, but, like, you know, it's. The times are crazy. Who knows what else? Who knows how many more people ICE is going to murder? Who knows, like, what other, like, how bad the economy is going to get.
- [174:51]
Mia Wong
We might have invaded Canada by then. Like, who knows?
- [174:54]
Emily Simpson
Yeah, anything's on the table. Anything's still on the table. We're just kind of looking at shit from February.
- [175:01]
Mick
Yeah. Yeah. And some of this shit will depend on, like, what atrocities they commit in the weeks and days before the midterm election. Right. Like, we, we see surges around certain. The killing of Renegade, the killing of Alex. Pretty.
- [175:17]
Giorgio
Right.
- [175:17]
Mick
We, we see those things shift public opinion dramatically. And the ongoing snatching of immigrants and deportations and sending people back to places where they'll be tortured and killed, like, that's kind of the background. And it makes people angry. But, like, it's these, these, these specific actions which seem to shift public opinion dramatically. All right, so on that topic, I guess we should talk about the quote, unquote, shutdown and specifically the shutdown of the Department of Homeland Security. Right. I guess the first thing to clarify is this isn't a government shutdown in the sense of the shutdown we saw last year.
- [176:07]
Giorgio
Right.
- [176:07]
Mick
That lasted like 40 plus days.
- [176:10]
Emily Simpson
Right. It's a partial shutdown.
- [176:12]
Mick
It's a partial shutdown. What's happening right now is the Democrats are holding up further funding for DHS until the administration agrees to some concessions they have asked for. This is unlikely to impact ICE and CBP a very great deal for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the tax and spending cuts bill.
- [176:31]
Giorgio
Right.
- [176:31]
Mick
The 2025 bill funded them to an absolutely, like, unfathomable degree. I think 65 and 70 million, respectively.
- [176:43]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [176:43]
Mick
More quickly, it will affect other agencies under dhs. Those include Transport Security Administration, Federal Emergency Management Administration, the Secret Service and the Coast Guard. Some TSA workers will be working, but they will likely not be receiving pay. This is pretty common. Right. They're deemed as, quote, unquote, essential workers. And that means that they will be expected to continue to Work. What we saw last time was that as the shutdown dragged on, people were calling in sick or not coming into work because they were taking other jobs. Right. Because they had bills to pay. The reason this is happening is because Democrats successfully managed to get Trump to separate DHS funding from another spending bill which passed through and funded the rest of the federal government. They are demanding an end to masking, I should clarify specifically like masking in the sense of law enforcement officers wearing gaiters over their faces, a return to officers displaying their name, badge and ID number, increased oversight of detention conditions, coordination with local law enforcement, an end to the detention of US citizens, targeted enforcement and not roving patrols, and a unified use of force and uniform conduct policy for CP, GDP and ICE and then an end to raids using Form 215. I'm just going to note here that I'm moving forward, going to refer to that using its, its that name and not call it an administrative warrant because an administrative warrant like kind of implies the, the action of a judge. But these are forms that are filled out.
- [178:20]
Emily Simpson
Right.
- [178:21]
Mick
That it is not the same in any aspect as a warrant unless a judicial warrant. The Republican counter proposals so far have shown pretty little common ground on this aside from over body cameras where GNOME did implement body cameras. As I said, ICE and CBP will continue doing what they do. Right. I was at the border on Saturday and I saw tons of CBP patrols. They do not seem to have slowed down with their wall construction that that may over time slowdown. They won't be paying like the workers week by week on those contracts. They will be paying a contractor who might be paying a subcontractor. So that would take time to slow down. The things that will slow down are things like the oversight function to dhs, potentially administrative and hiring functions, things like that.
- [179:14]
Giorgio
Right.
- [179:14]
Mick
But the actual like underground patrolling, most of those people are deemed as essential workers. So it seems unlikely that we will see for instance, fewer CBP patrols at the border or fewer ERO is agents tasked with doing these ongoing raids. So yeah. Talking about dhs, I want to talk a little bit more about the Coast Guard. I think it's likely that some people won't be aware that the Coast Guard is an element of the dhs. They're also a branch of the military. They're the only branch of the military that's under the dhs. Yes. So they like considered veterans but they're not in the DOD or the Dow as you can now call it. The NBC has a piece suggesting that there Is, I guess, a split in the Coast Guard between lower ranks and higher ranks. And specifically they're talking about feeling that Coast Guard is moving away from its core mission, which is search and rescue. They highlight one incident in February of last year when a Coast Guardsman went overboard and A Coast Guard C130 was detailed to participate in the search for that Coast Guardsman. Right. It had previously been detailed for a deportation flight, but it was retasked to assist with the search. According to the piece, quote, noam verbally instructed the acting Commandant of the Coast Guard, Admiral Kevin Lundy, to pull the plane off the search and rescue mission so it would not miss the immigrant flight as part of DHS's so called alien expulsion operation, according to two U.S. officials and a Coast Guard official. As a result, what happened is that local Coast Guard officials in San Diego scrambled to find two C27s that could fulfill that deportation flight. In doing so, that freed up the C130 to then go return to participate in the search. Right. They did continue searching, I believe for 190 hours, but they never found the missing Coast Guardsmen.
- [181:06]
Giorgio
Right.
- [181:07]
Mick
You cannot and will never be able to conclusively prove that all of this back and forth with this C130 had any impact on that. But this incident has clearly had an impact on morale and it suggests a general shift in priorities away from search and rescue and towards doing more border enforcement. Right. Under Nome, 750 flights have been redirected from their regular work to instead deport migrants. This comes after she removed a high ranking Coast Guard official from her house so that nomenclature home could live at the house.
- [181:39]
Mia Wong
Wait, what?
- [181:40]
Mick
Yeah, yeah, hold on.
- [181:42]
Mia Wong
She kicked the ghost Guard person out of their house?
- [181:44]
Mick
Yeah. This was last year. She moved with like very short notice. She moved on to a holy. Yeah, she moved onto a base.
- [181:52]
Mia Wong
I missed this.
- [181:53]
Mick
Yeah.
- [181:54]
Garrison Davis
With Lewandowski. Right.
- [181:57]
Mick
That might be the case.
- [181:57]
Garrison Davis
Guys, there was like a few people in like the. The Cabinet or Orbit.
- [182:02]
Mick
Yes, yes, yes. I thought you meant like they were cohabiting.
- [182:04]
Garrison Davis
Oh, no, no, no.
- [182:05]
Mick
Okay, yeah. Okay.
- [182:07]
Garrison Davis
Beautiful domestic life.
- [182:09]
Giorgio
Yes.
- [182:09]
Mick
Okay. I was, I was. I don't want to doubt you, but that would have been a news to me. Yes. A number of Trump's like, executive officials are living on bases more than is usual. I think the Millers maybe do as well. But yeah. She also purchased two Gulfstream jets to fly her around. Unlike most government jets, which tend to be returned to what's. What's called a sterile state after use. That just means that they go back to being completely clean. Like, they're like a generic jet. They're not your jet. Nome prefers to keep some personal items aboard the Gulf Streams, but one of these items, a heated blanket, was left behind after her jet broke down. She had to switch planes. Coelu Windowski reportedly shouted at the Coast Guard flight staff, demanded they turn around before attempting to fire the pilot who fused to do so.
- [183:01]
Emily Simpson
Jesus Christ.
- [183:03]
Garrison Davis
I need. I need my blankie. I need my blankie.
- [183:05]
Emily Simpson
Turn around.
- [183:06]
Mick
Yeah, I think she'd. She had a rough week, I guess. One of the blanket.
- [183:11]
Mia Wong
These are absolutely just like the softest fascists that have ever ruled a country.
- [183:16]
Garrison Davis
Like a turn up.
- [183:17]
Mia Wong
Flight around because I left my baby blanket. Like.
- [183:20]
Mick
Yeah, right. Like, oh, God. Fortunately, I guess they. They de. Escalated that one and continued to fly like, blanket free.
- [183:28]
Mia Wong
She tried to fire the pipe.
- [183:32]
Mick
Yeah. I think it is interesting to look at Coast Guard's morale, right? Like, Coast Guard's traditional mission has been search and rescue and then the interdiction of like, drug vessels. And they have been doing a great deal of. Of border enforcement stuff and removal stuff. And it is obviously like, like people who've been at the Coast Guard for a long time, not what they joined the Coast Guard to do. I will just say that there are very few areas in which the United Kingdom has worked out, but the lifeboats are one of them. They are mentioned in mutual aid. The Royal National Lifeboat Institute has an article on Kropotkin on their website.
- [184:11]
Mia Wong
Incredible.
- [184:12]
Mick
And it is, it is one of the really genuinely good things about Britain. By contrast, they are not part of. Of our government security apparatus.
- [184:20]
Garrison Davis
Yeah. Because that makes no sense. The entire agency of DHS makes no sense whatsoever.
- [184:25]
James Stout
Yeah.
- [184:25]
Mick
It's just because, yeah, there are better ways to do this.
- [184:28]
Emily Simpson
I mean, it makes, again, it makes a lot of sense as the President's private army. Yeah.
- [184:33]
Garrison Davis
For our final segment this episode, some tragic news. On Monday afternoon, February 16, two people were killed in a shooting at a hockey game in Pawtucket, Rhode island, before the shooter died by suicide. Three others were shot but survived their injuries. In the aftermath of the tragedy, people across the right and the left have both used this shooting offensively and defensively in the culture war because of the shooter's gender identity and far right conspiratorial politics. Even though evidence points towards this being targeted domestic violence. The deceased or the shooter's ex wife and eldest son and the deceased ex wife's parents were critically wounded but survived, as did a family friend. The shooter's other son was on the ice playing hockey while the shooting took place. Ordinarily, we would not talk about an incident like this in the news because there's a lot of domestic violence shootings that happen across the United States every week, and not all of them become national news stories. This is news because of its weaponization in the political culture war. But under most methodologies like this incident would not even be categorized as a mass shooting because less than four people died. It does qualify under the Gun Violence Archive criteria, which counts injuries, not deaths, in which this would be the 41st shooting in the US this year. But after the shooting took place, right wing accounts and influences started using this as a part of their trans mass shooter narrative. On Monday night, the Pawtucket police said they believed the shooting stemmed from a family dispute. The shooter was 56 years old with six kids. About 10 years ago, the shooter started identifying as a transgender woman and used the name Roberta Esposito. The legal last name is Dorgan. They're not Hispanic.
- [186:27]
Mink
Oh.
- [186:30]
Garrison Davis
The shooter was divorced about five to six years ago. Dorgan's ex wife lists the grounds for divorce in the documents as, quote, gender reassignment surgery, narcissistic and personality disorder traits. Then she crossed that out and instead wrote, quote, irrevocable differences which caused the irremediable breakdown of the marriage, unquote. The shooter was extremely active on Twitter. Twitter made anti Semitic and conspiratorial posts and frequently interacted with a large assortment of mega influencers as well as far right neo Nazi and conspiracy theory influencers like Nick Fuentes and Alex Jones. Dorgan also shared pictures of a massive like SS Totenkov tattoo on their right arm.
- [187:21]
Mick
Yeah.
- [187:22]
Garrison Davis
And wrote on Twitter, quote, post op, trans to the right of Hitler and quote, you can be pro LGBT and pro Trump, unquote. From looking through their Twitter, it, it mostly appears to be someone who is suffering from extreme mental distress. It's hard to, you know, chart how much of the political beliefs that can be displayed on the Twitter are like genuinely held versus how much they relate to long standing mental health issues this person suffered from. Which I'll get into in a sec.
- [187:52]
Mick
I'm still a little hung up on the name.
- [187:54]
Garrison Davis
The name also, I think relates to just this person's very, very not well.
- [187:59]
Mick
Okay. They're just trying to piss people off, like with.
- [188:01]
Garrison Davis
Correct. I think everything about this person can be seen as an expression of like antisociality. Yeah, I'm just trying to politics their presentation, their name. Now, while right wing news agencies and influencers have used this horrifying incident of domestic violence for their, you know, trans mass shooter narrative, framing every trans person as at risk of randomly becoming a mass killer while ignoring this shooter's own extremist politics. People on the left have blamed this tragedy on the shooter being a quote, unquote, far right Trump supporter or a quote, unquote, Nazi groiper. And this is in part a defensive reaction against the right's own like misleading and non sourced claims about a statistical epidemic of trans violence. But laying blame on Make America Great Again and the MAGA movement doesn't really get us much closer to understanding this violence. We're so used to defaulting to this partisan culture war like ideological explanation for the cause of public violence, whether that's, you know, it for the right, trans ideology or neo Nazism. Even though both in this case and the shooting in Canada last week, which I talked about a few days ago on the show, this was like antisocial, unstable and self destructive individual who killed family members and then created a deadly public situation leading them to kill themselves. Despite Nazi tattoos and Twitter posts. This hockey game shooting was not ideologically motivated violence. This was targeted interpersonal violence against family stemming from extreme mental health issues. This goes beyond like right left politics. This shooter just seemed to be drawn to anything seen as extreme or anything that produced antisocial effects.
- [189:43]
Mick
Effects.
- [189:44]
Garrison Davis
The daughter of the shooter briefly spoke to local news on Monday saying that the shooter was her father and that the shooter had, quote, unquote, mental health issues and was, quote, unquote, very sick. The Rhode Island Coalition against Domestic Violence said in a statement Monday night, quote, While details are still emerging, we know that violence within families and intimate relationships can have devastating and far reaching impacts. Domestic violence does not stay behind closed doors. It affects children, extended family members and entire communities, unquote.
- [190:15]
Mia Wong
Yeah, I mean, I guess if you want to do analysis of it, it's that like the thing that's actually a predictor for violence is domestic violence. And this is another really horrible domestic violence incident.
- [190:27]
Garrison Davis
But yeah, it's, it's pretty tragic.
- [190:30]
Mia Wong
Yeah.
- [190:31]
Garrison Davis
Interestingly, there was some news that came out today, which is Wednesday, that one of the other sons of the shooter was arrested a few years ago in North Providence for setting fires to a black church, which did appear to be ideologically motivated violence. And police found notebooks inside of this person's home filled with hateful writings, quote, gunned down everyone that isn't white if one is white. Spread the gospel. Always give our bloodline a chance, unquote. So this Incident of arson in a black church is definitely ideologically motivated.
- [191:11]
Mick
Yeah.
- [191:11]
Mia Wong
It's in a great, extremely normal country.
- [191:14]
Garrison Davis
And this person was sentenced to six years in prison.
- [191:17]
Mick
Oh, wow. So the person. That's the son of the person.
- [191:21]
Garrison Davis
The son of the shooter. One of the sons of the shooter.
- [191:23]
Giorgio
Yeah.
- [191:23]
Mick
Because they had several sons.
- [191:25]
Emily Simpson
Yeah.
- [191:26]
Garrison Davis
Just a pretty tragic series of incidents with this family.
- [191:30]
Mick
I do find it really disturbing that the thing that you mentioned, gay, where people just can kind of drop into a channel when it comes to responding to a tragedy like this. Like, and I. I find it really upsetting when I see it from, like, yeah, left and progressive organizations that. That, like, promote firearms training or, like, I. I just find it really kind of disappointing, I guess, to see people dropping into these same kind of callous and dismissive responses is. Yeah, it's just something that's been weighing on me recently, like, I am a person who owns guns. But it's still. I don't know. I'm disappointed, I guess.
- [192:05]
Giorgio
Yeah.
- [192:06]
Garrison Davis
All right, well, we reported the news.
- [192:11]
Mia Wong
Put a trans girl on your couch.
- [192:13]
Giorgio
Yep.
- [192:13]
Mick
And if you have some news that you think we should report, some tips, you can do so by emailing coolzonetipson me. And if you have someone that you would like to be a guest on our show or a topic that you think Robert should cover from behind the Bastards, we will make another email for that. But you could just not email the tip line. If you're a publicist and you email, I will block you.
- [192:37]
Giorgio
We reported the news.
- [192:44]
Emily Simpson
Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from now until the heat death of the universe.
- [192:50]
Mia Wong
It Could Happen Here is a production
- [192:51]
Mink
of Cool Zone Media.
- [192:53]
Garrison Davis
For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
- [193:00]
Mia Wong
Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts
- [193:03]
Garrison Davis
you can now find sources for. It Could Happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. This is an iHeart podcast.
- [193:12]
Mia Wong
Guaranteed Human.