Part Four: The Phil Spector Episodes

Summary

Behind the Bastards – Part Four: The Phil Spector Episodes
Cool Zone Media / iHeartPodcasts — April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

The fourth and final installment of Behind the Bastards’ deep-dive into Phil Spector focuses on the murder of Lana Clarkson, Spector’s infamous trial, his legacy as both musical innovator and violent abuser, and the aftermath for his victims—most notably ex-wife Ronnie Spector. The episode, led by guest “Greasy Will,” reconstructs the night Lana Clarkson died, unpacks the messy investigation and trials, and reflects on the darkness that lurked behind Spector’s genius. The hosts balance irreverent humor and empathy, highlighting the complex realities of Hollywood’s power structures and how they enable monstrous figures.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Context of Lana Clarkson’s Murder

• Lana Clarkson’s Backstory (07:29–15:52):
  • Greasy Will details Lana’s career as a B-movie actress, her fading opportunities, and her hopes to reconnect with Hollywood by working at the House of Blues.
  • She is portrayed as ambitious, warm, and resilient, dismissing the later narrative that she was suicidal.
  • Quote:
    “Hollywood has a way of quietly moving on from people...as the direct-to-video boom of the 80s faded, so did many of the roles that had sustained her.” (12:01, Will)
• The Night of the Crime (15:52–23:41):
  • Spector, after a negative magazine article, relapsed into drinking, crossing paths with Clarkson at the House of Blues on Feb 2, 2003.
  • Spector coerces Lana into accompanying him to his home in Alhambra under a classic power imbalance.
  • Quote:
    “At 2 o’clock in the morning, you don’t leave your safety network with an extremely intoxicated man...unless you’re not feeling a bit like ‘I gotta take a chance on this.'” (23:41, Will)

2. Phil Spector’s Odd Behavior and the Night’s Events

• Spector’s Intoxication & Persona (25:05–27:34):
  • Played a recording of an unhinged, rambling Spector interview, underlining how incoherent he was even when sober.
  • Quote:
    “Did you ever realize that Mickey Mouse was a black man?...He was the first black movie star before Shirley Temple..." (25:42, Spector)
• The Killing & Immediate Aftermath (27:39–32:00):
  • Spector, after a loud noise, tells his driver: “I think I’ve killed somebody.”
  • Fumbles with police, refuses to keep hands visible, is tased, and is ultimately arrested.

3. Investigation and Trial: Evidence and “Spectacle”

• Crime Scene Details (36:28–43:48):
  • Clarkson found dead, purse over shoulder, gun by her foot; evidence suggests she was trying to leave.
  • Forensic evidence ambiguous: very little blood/gunshot residue on Spector, which would be unusual if he pulled the trigger.
  • Spector's attempts to clean the scene (e.g., bloody cloth diaper found) and change his story repeatedly.
  • Quote:
    “Phil can’t shut the fuck up...He’s inventing the narrative as this is happening.” (37:10, Will)
• Years Before Trial—Celebrity Immunity (45:37–47:14):
  • Spector spent six years free before retrial, using public platforms to trash Lana and plead his innocence through bizarre, self-directed internet videos.
  • Quote:
    “She may have accidentally taken her own life. She may have purposefully taken her own life...I don’t know why, when, how or where...” (46:20, Spector, self-interview)

4. Patterns of Abuse and Power

• Previous Victims Speak (49:15–51:00):
  • Joan Rivers and others testify to Spector’s pattern: pulling guns on women trying to leave.
  • “It was not a challenge to find people that...Phil Spector threatened me with a gun.” (49:21, Will)
• The Power of Celebrity—Mockery in Court (51:00–55:40):
  • Spector makes a spectacle at trial, sporting increasingly bizarre wigs, further underscoring his disconnect from reality and lack of remorse.
  • Spector claims wild hair was a tribute to Ben Wallace and Albert Einstein.
  • Quote:
    “It took me four and a half hours to get my hair done...It was a tribute to Ben Wallace and Albert Einstein. It was done in jest...” (56:14, Spector)

5. Outcome and Reflection

• Retrial & Conviction (67:15–68:10):
  • The first trial resulted in a hung jury; in 2009, Spector was convicted of second-degree murder.
  • Served 19 years to life and died in prison in 2021 from COVID complications.
  • Quote:
    “Justice. Yay.” (68:08, Will)
• Critical Theory: What Really Happened? (68:10–71:22):
  • The hosts suggest Spector likely threatened Lana with a gun (as he had with many others), and—while drunk—accidentally killed her as she tried to leave.
  • Emphasize: negligent homicide is still murder even without premeditation.

6. Aftermath for Victims & The Spector Legacy

• Ronnie Spector’s Survival (75:27–78:49):
  • Ronnie Spector’s post-divorce struggle and resilience highlighted as a hopeful counterpoint; she rebuilt her identity and career, outliving Phil.
  • Quote:
    “When Phil Spector was convicted and imprisoned, Ronnie did not gloat. She simply said, justice has been done.” (77:32, Will)
• Phil’s Impact on the Industry, Morality of Listening to His Work (82:00–83:03):
  • Will reflects on difficulty separating Spector’s musical legacy (“wall of sound”) from his actions.
  • Quote:
    “He was the shittiest person. He made some bangers...It’s hard to remove that...My justification is that I’m just out here telling you guys how shitty he was.” (82:01, Will)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Surviving Hollywood:
  “It’s wonderful to tell people to chase their dreams; just don’t lie to them when you do it.” (09:36, Robert)
• On the Power Dynamic That Led to Lana Clarkson’s Death:
  “Extremely intoxicated man...very Weinstein-esque power imbalance...he enjoys it.” (21:20, Will)
• On Testimony Patterns:
  “There was like a football stadium full of people who had guns pulled on them by Phil Spector.” (49:15, Robert)
• The Infamous Hair:
  “He changes his hair every fucking trial...the Internet thought this was hilarious and they just keep photoshopping bigger and bigger hair until he’s got, like, the Death Star version of an Afro on his head.” (51:24, Will)
• Spector’s Self-Pity:
  “She killed herself and this happened to me, and I’m the innocent victim.” (46:10, Will, paraphrasing Phil)
• Ronnie Spector’s Strength:
  “She absolutely has such a strength and such a sense of humor about all the things that happened to her.” (77:32, Will)
• Summary Reflection:
  “He is, without a doubt, a menace to society.” (71:23, Sophie)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Lana Clarkson’s Life and Hollywood Hopes: 07:29–15:52
• Night Leading Up to the Crime: 15:52–23:41
• Spector’s Drunkenness & Oddness: 25:05–27:34
• Spector’s Confession to Driver and Police Interaction: 27:39–32:00
• Crime Scene Details & Evidence: 36:28–43:48
• Public Spectacle and Spector’s Bizarre Self-Defense: 45:37–47:14, 51:00–55:40
• Court Testimonies from Past Victims: 49:15–51:00
• First and Second Trials, Conviction: 62:41–68:10
• Robust Theoretical Discussion of What “Really” Happened: 68:10–72:22
• Ronnie Spector’s Recovery and Enduring Influence: 75:27–78:49
• Moral Debate over Art vs. Artist: 82:00–83:03

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Final Reflection

The episode closes by reflecting on the duality of Phil Spector: the “wall of sound” musical pioneer whose unchecked power and violence destroyed lives. The hosts highlight Ronnie Spector’s hard-won survival and urge listeners to reckon with the darkness behind the music industry’s myths. The tone is irreverent but grounded, with frequent reminders that “bad guys” fascinate because their evil is both horrifying—and tragically, all too common in places of power.

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“He was the shittiest person. He made some bangers.” (82:01, Will) If you care about the people behind the art—and the victims left in these monsters’ wakes—this episode is required listening.

Transcript

[A]

Media.

[B]

Hey, everybody. Robert here. And the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences have announced that three different Cool Zone media shows have been nominated for awards at the 30th annual Webby Awards. You can vote on these now if you just google the name of the podcast. And the category behind the Bastards has been nominated in the experimental and innovation podcasts category. It could Happen here is in the news and politics podcasts category. And James Stout's miniseries Migrating to America, A Dream Worth Dying for has been nominated in the podcast documentary category. And you can find links to vote for each of these podcasts in the episode description and in the posts on social media for episodes that Could Happen here and behind the Bastards. Thank you. Welcome back to behind the Bastards, a podcast where I am presumably on vacation or at least working on a different series of episodes. And this week, as for the last three episodes, my good pal, Grammy award winning greasy Will.

[C]

This guy.

[B]

Yeah. Is here to talk to us.

[C]

This guy is here to talk to us about part four of story Phil Spector, which we made it to part four. And to be, to be fair, I've been drinking the whole time, but now I feel like this is a celebratory shot which is out of we the celebration.

[B]

That's why we come out of the two different recording days, folks.

[C]

Yeah. So I can get real because if we'd had to keep going on the first one wouldn't have made it.

[B]

Wouldn't have made it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I just wanted to keep you alive. Yeah.

[C]

Which by the way, I have some words for your viewers.

[D]

Uh, oh, oh no.

[C]

After the Grammy. Hold on. Take the shot first. Hey guys.

[B]

I love that.

[C]

Hey guys. How about, how about let's not talk about my appearance. You know, these dark circles under my eyes are genetic. Every person in my family who has a drug or alcohol addiction gets them. So this is rude of you to just assume I'm drinking too much.

[B]

Yeah, it was being kind of mean.

[C]

Sorry for having fun.

[D]

You know, he still got the job done. Yeah, this stuff is great.

[C]

I made it through. And then look what you got out of this. You got me saying, dang, dude, I should tell them about Phil Spector. Because not everybody knows the whole story of Phil Spector and it's so incredibly interesting. Which is where we will pick up after a word from these sponsors or whatever.

[B]

Wow, some sponsors. Yeah. This is an Iheart podcast.

[E]

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[A]

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[C]

And we're back. I always wanted to say that it felt right.

[D]

You're so professional right now.

[C]

Thanks. Yeah, I know, dude. I'm actually. I stream every week. I do. I spend a lot of time on the Internet. I'm so good at talking to nobody, so. So it's amazing to have somebody to actually talk back to normally. It's just like the comment section on one of my stupid ass videos, which, you know. Don't.

[B]

We'll be at the comments section.

[C]

So Phil Spector, he just had an article written. The. The. I. I think this is one of the most insane cause and effects of. Of history that has ever happened. Because Phil Spector, he. He has this journalist come and this journalist writes a piece on him for the. For Interview magazine or some. I. I wrote it down, but I don't remember, so let's just pretend I said it. So he. He writes an article for me, he puts it in this magazine and it comes out. And Phil breaks his sobriety, loses it. Starts drinking menacingly.

[B]

Sure, of course.

[C]

Right, right. He loses his mind. He's kind of. It's not a positive article. It's positive in the sense that it's like, hey, I'm talking about Phil Spector.

[B]

And his guy's still relevant. Yeah.

[C]

But it's negative in the fact that Phil sees all the bad things that this guy says about him and he starts drinking again and he finds himself on the night of February 2, 2003, at the house of Blues. This is where he will run into Lana Clarkson. And I feel as though we do not. I mean, it's hard to give victims as much attention as they deserve.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It's like, that's a very difficult thing. Because the interesting part of this whole thing is that Phil Spector is fucking insane. Sucks ass.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And this was a fairly normal Los Angeles person living their life. And so it's like the bulk of the story lies on crazy boy. Right. So I do wanna spend just a moment, first off, to show you Lana Clarkson.

[B]

Beautiful.

[C]

She's beautiful. This is her at, like, almost 40 years old, probably. She is a beautiful woman. She was an actress, she worked in Hollywood. She had many friends. She had a lot of friends. A lot of people remembered her lovingly when she was gone. All right, so this is our story of Lana Clarkson. Lana Clarkson was born on April 5, 1962 in Long Beach, California. And she grew up in the Southern California endless orbit of Hollywood. You know, it's like the industry always feels really close to you when you're in Los Angeles. No matter what suburb you in, it feels like, you're not far from the big leagues, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

From an early age, she gravitated towards performance, and at 6ft tall, she had a striking presence that made her hard to ignore. Like many Angelinos, Clarkson absorbed the idea that Hollywood rewarded persistence, that if you stayed visible long enough, something would eventually break your way. And I think that's a very reasonable Los Angeles feel. It's like, you know, there is a lot of. There's a lot of, hey, you could make it at any time here kind of feels.

[B]

And it's. It's true in that, like, it is the only way people who aren't born into the industry or whatever succeed.

[C]

But also, if you are not a Nepo baby. Right.

[B]

This is the only thing that works. But also, it still fails for 90% of people.

[C]

99%, I think I'm being. Yeah, that was very optimistic.

[B]

99.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's not. It does not go well for a lot of people.

[B]

But, no, I mean, yeah, we're sitting here as two of the people in our own fields who, like, managed to make it through that 99% thing. And it is like, I know that a lot of people who.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

You know, wound up somewhere else.

[C]

I went to school with, like, 75 people, and I know one of them that still has a job in the audio world. And that is just the. I know the class before me, the class after me. I know, like, I know hundreds of people that came in with me, and I know none of them still having jobs.

[B]

It's wonderful to tell people to chase their dreams. You're also. Don't lie to them when you do it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You can chase your dreams for a while, you know, have an exit plan, have a gambling. Right.

[C]

Just like, just rationalize. Rationalize to yourself. Like, here's the thing, right? This is what I tell people about this, which I think is the best advice. If you're the type of person who, when people tell them you're never going to make it go like, no, no, no, no, that's you. I make it. I do it. I. No one can tell me. In fact, I'm going to do it three times as hard because you said I couldn't, then maybe this life is for you. Maybe if you thrive on people telling you no, and you think that that's the coolest thing ever and you just want to shove it in their face,

[B]

I'll show you how smart you are.

[C]

You don't know anything. I'm gonna spite you. Third wife. Second wife.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, so by the early 1980s. She is landing small parts. She's getting some brief exposure in mainstream productions. She's in fast times at Ridgemont High. She's a little background character in there, you know. Her steadier work came in genre films where she became recognizable to audiences through fantasy and cult B movies such as Barbarian Queen, Barbarian Queen 2, and Deathstalker feels very. You might remember me from such works as Barbarian and Barbarian Queen 2.

[B]

Deathstalker.

[C]

These are super B movie type things. In later years, we get weird about saying B movies as though we're supposed to call them like lesser grade movies. I don't know what lesser off market. I don't know what. It's weird. They're B movies. I don't know why that suddenly got PC in any way. And I'm ranting about this right now because it made me mad.

[B]

It was. But okay.

[C]

Oh, it made me mad.

[B]

There's a call of B movies.

[C]

There's a bunch of articles that I read about Lana Clarkson specifically that were like, you shouldn't call her a B movie actress. That's degrading. And I'm like, that's just.

[B]

No, we love. We call Bruce Campbell. Right.

[C]

B movie actor. Right, Exactly.

[B]

The great Bruce Campbell. Anyway, so.

[C]

But. So Barbarian Queen was actually produced by Robin Corman, who did the original in the 1960 Little Shop of Horrors. So it wasn't. They're not like a prestige role, but she's connected. She's doing well.

[B]

You know. Robin Corman.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's not nobody. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And they gave her a foothold in the industry and a loyal cult following too. She's like a early comic book, you know, comic con type thing. You know, like shoes show up to those things. And all the nerds are like, barbarian Queen. She does kind of. She's typecast, right. She's a six foot tall, beautiful blonde woman. She is very much typecast as either the, like the warrior queen or the bimbo. Right. She's like, she's in those two categories. And you know, when you start reaching your 40s, that that's a tough one because you're not physically the same as you were when you were in your 20s doing, you know, action movies, swinging swords around and everything. And also, you know, it's like as the bimbo roll, it's like you're starting to look older. Right, of course. And I'm not trying to be derogatory to. It's just the industry we live in. It's an honest thing that we have. You know, it's Hollywood. So as the years pass, though, she leans into the identity and she's attending comic and genre conventions where she signs autographs and she stays connected to her fans. She has a website in the early 2000s, which is something, you know, like you're connecting that. That's the. You're the heartbeat of nerds. If you had a website in the early 2000s. But, you know, Hollywood has a way of quietly moving on from people. And as the direct to video boom of the 80s faded, so did many of the roles that had sustained. Sustained her. Her career didn't collapse. So much is just narrow. You know, it's a slow erosion of opportunity. And everybody in LA was going, it goes through it, you know, it's like there's just less roles for the older woman than there is for the young buxom beauty or whatever, you know, in the early 2000s, while at a house party, she's dancing in her high heels and she slips and falls, breaking both of her wrists.

[B]

Oh. Ooh.

[C]

The accident derailed her acting career because, of course, you're not. You're not going to auditions with two. Two broken wrists or whatever and not doing much and. And, you know, she's starting to see her career kind of slip away.

[B]

You.

[C]

You can't. In the. In the world, in this world, in the. All the entertainment. You can't take a break, Robert, you know that. You work. Yep. 700 days a year. Yeah. You are working like you are a busy bee over there doing episodes all the time. Which is why I'm here. You got.

[B]

Otherwise the pod save guys will eat you alive.

[C]

Yes. And you have an amazing productive output. But it is, you know, if you were to force. To take a long break, you know, it could damage your career because people move on. You know, that's just the fact of what happens.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So she begins pivoting to comedy. She starts writing her own standup act and, like, she's trying to do other things, like get out of her typecast. Around 2002, while Clarkson was still pursuing acting, she takes a job at the House of Blues on Sunset Strip. She gets a job working in the Foundation Room upstairs, which is where musicians and industry figures and celebrities are all kind of hanging out. It's the VIP room of the Hollywood Sunset Strip. Like, so, you know, it's. It's a. It's. It's a good place to be still being connected, Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like many who took those jobs, she understood that proximity could still mean possibility, and she hoped that meeting the right person might reopen doors that had quietly closed. It was the kind of compromise that Hollywood encourages you to, like, stay close enough to the spotlight so you can kind of, you know, be in proximity of good things happening. If you have spent any time in any entertaining industry at all, like, you get what's going on, like, sometimes the phone just stops ringing and you gotta start hustling in different ways.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

On the night of February 2nd, Clarkson was working there, and she's still holding onto the idea that her story in Hollywood isn't finished. She's 42 years old, but she's still hopeful, still recognizable in certain circles, and still navigating that fragile space between past visibility and future chance. The night she met Phil Spector, that would, you know, ring her into infamy for the rest of her life, but obviously for the worst reason. Lana's story is the story of a billion people. Right. It's like we've seen so many of these. They flicker for a little bit, but they, you know, it's. It's hard. This is a hard city. There is not a lot of room to have a billion Robert Downey juniors. Right. We need, right. We, like, people will come and go. That's how it is. It's hard. It's harder for a woman, probably, you know, like, this town chews people up and spits her out, so. But she's still hopeful. She is writing on her blogs, really hopeful things all the time. I'm excited about this. I wanted to. There's no, there's no air of, like, sadness around what is going on. And this is important because she's about to end up dead. And there's going to be a lot of doubt cast upon her mental state at this time. But seemingly she's a very happy person. Still believes in, like, the best will come for her.

[B]

Right.

[C]

When Clarkson first encountered Spectre, she reportedly mistook him for a woman. Keep in mind, she's six foot tall, he's five foot four. He's wearing big wigs and, like, dressing all crazy. Like, he's got platform heels and shit.

[B]

Why is he wearing. Oh. Cause he wants to be taller. Yeah. Of course she mistakes him. Yes, that makes sense. Yeah.

[C]

He looks like an old woman in Hollywood, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

By this time he's like, he's wearing elaborate wigs and eccentric clothing. And his theatrical presentation kind of become a part of his public Persona.

[D]

Right.

[C]

All right. He walks right into the foundation room. No hesitation, just like walks straight in there. And this is a high class VIP area. So Lana Clarkson, being the hostess of the Foundation Room, is like, hey, yo, hey, ma'. Am, Mrs. Lady. You know, she's like, trying to stop him from walking because she doesn't know who he is. And he gives her the old, don't you know who I am? I'm not a Mrs. Like, yeah, I'm Phil Spector. Now, keep in mind, it's 2003, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Nobody cares about 70s. It's been a minute, right? Two whole generations have come and gone of people no longer listening to his music regularly. So it's like nobody knows who he is. And, you know, and this is a very classic la. You don't know who I am. You know who I am. I can't believe you don't know who I am.

[D]

Has happened to anybody who encountered somebody who was even slightly famous in Los Angeles that you didn't recognize?

[C]

I wanted to tell this side story because it was one of the funniest things that's ever happened to me in the industry. I had a guy say that to me, you don't know who I am?

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And I said. I said no. And I know tons of people, so that is so embarrassing for you. And they were like. And they were like, what's your name? You're never gonna work in this town again. And I was like, my name's greasy. Will, man, write it down. Take a picture. I don't give a fuck.

[B]

Yeah, what are you gonna do?

[C]

You know? And I was like, I hear that so often. It means nothing. It's lost all meaning to me. And he turns out. So it turns out the next day, he calls my last boss, the boss that I had at the time working at the studio. He calls her and she says, and this is a quote from her direct quote. Candace Stewart. She's the homie. She said, you know, that guy's killed people before. You should probably. You should probably not anger him.

[B]

It can't have been. But were you beefing with Suge Knight?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

No. No context of or anything. Just, you know, that guy's killed people, right? Not how, not, why not where.

[C]

All right, so Lana's manager steps into the situation. You know, Phil loses. My manager steps in. Sorry, Mr. Spectre, we got your table for you. Let's put you down like we got everything. And Lana is super embarrassed. She's super apologetic, like, she's pretty new to the job still. She hasn't been working there long, and. And, you know, she's trying. She's doing this to meet people, and now she's just angered of what she perceives to be a very powerful person in Hollywood.

[D]

But again, it's like early 2000s. How was she supposed to know who Phil Spector is?

[C]

100%. 100%. So she's trying to make up for it. She does her best to try and like give him extra Attention. Oh, Mr. Spector. And Phil seems to really enjoy getting this like, oh, now you care about who I am feeling. You know, it's like, you know, he seems to really feel empowered by the whole thing. The waitress, if you remember, he goes, he went to Dantana's with another date, a high school friend. Then he takes her home. Cause she's like, I don't wanna get lit anymore. And he was like, all right. So he takes her home and then he comes back and starts drinking with the waitress, right? Then he takes the waitress to the House of Blues. And then at the House of Blues the waitress is like, I don't want to drink anymore. I need to go home. I got to work tomorrow. Right? It's like late. It's near closing time. He comes in like very close to closing time and it's late. It's like almost 2am and she's like, I'm trying to go home. So Phil's like, go have my driver take you home. Get the fuck out of here. I don't want to be seen with somebody not drinking. He's like making fun of her. He's like mad that she won't. She orders the water. He's like, nobody drinks water around me. Are you crazy? I don't want to party. Yeah, you don't want to party. You know, so, so he sends her home and then he starts trying to put his moves on Lana Clarkson, right? She's now she's in a position of very serious power imbalance. You know, this is, this is a very Weinstein esque power imbalance. Where now she, not only is she, you know, trying to make things up to him, but he's also feeling the joy of being in that situation and, and pushing things even further. He's like, have it, sit down. Have a drink with me. And she's like, I, I can't. My boss says no. He's like, tell your boss that I'll leave if, if you don't sit down and have a drink. Like, you know, like he's, he's going off on this.

[B]

Yeah. And he clearly has never gotten used to not having that much power.

[C]

Yes, for sure. He still enjoys it. Like for some people it gets to that point they're like, bro, it's not even, like, fun anymore. I only want to like it. I. I just want to be left alone, you know? But for him, he clearly still is like, yes. So, yeah, you know, I'm sure Lana let on that she was an actress, probably during the conversations, because that's what you do, right? You've seen this situation a thousand times in Hollywood because that's networking. That's what would you believe networking is. Anyway, so he's telling, you know, her, come back to my place. Come back to my place. It's almost closing time. We got to get out of here. Let's come back to my place in Alhambra. We'll talk about things. I'll show you some stuff. Phil notoriously loved taking people to his house and showing them his, like, five seconds in Easy Rider all the time and being like, not cinema, baby, you know? So I'm sure he was like, you know, I was an easy Rider, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Alhambra's not close,

[C]

so the distance between the House of Blues and Alhambra is far.

[D]

That's what I'm saying. That's not close.

[C]

That's far, far, far, right? It's like, yeah, this is, and this is important to this conversation because at 2 o' clock in the morning, you don't leave your safety network with an extremely intoxicated man, no matter who it is. Unless you're not feeling a bit like, I gotta take a chance on this. Like, this might be an opportunity for me, you know? And this is. This is very cloud. This is just power balance, you know, it's just what it is. It's how. It's how Hollywood operated for a long, long time and is only now starting to get even the tiniest bit better. Follow me for no more inside stories of the horrible things that happen in this town. All right? So she's 30, 30 miles away. You know, they're going to get into his car and drive to Alhambra. She has to be, according to everybody, she has to be really coerced. She does not want to do this. But Phil keeps being like, yeah, come on, come on, come on, let's do it. Let's do it. Right? But also keep in mind that Phil is shithoused right now, right? Like, he is a tiny man. He's maybe 140 pounds. Maybe like 130 pounds. Like, he's five foot, barely nothing, you know, Like. And he's been drinking Navy Grogs all night. If you've never had a Navy Grog, it's Mostly alcohol. It's almost all alcohol.

[D]

That made my stomach hurt just thinking about a navy.

[C]

Yeah, it's horrible, but also vile. Yes. And. But it's a lot. It's a lot of alcohol. And. And he's been drinking them all night. Right. He's slurring his words. And. And you know, even when he's not slurring, he's pretty. Not like when he's not drunk, he's like pretty not understandable to begin with. And I want to show. Because. So I want to show this. I need you to understand. This is what he's like when he's sober. This is an interview he gave. And this is the types of things he says and how he sounds when he is sober.

[B]

Excellent.

[F]

Did you ever realize that Mickey Mouse was a black man? Mickey Mouse was the first black movie star before Shirley Campbell discovered by Walt Disney. First black star to win an Academy Award. He was black, he wasn't white, and he was in black movies. He was in movies. He was a black movie star. And that was before, during segregation, all the people were going to see him. And he didn't talk with an accent. And it was Walt Disney's voice. And nobody pays any attention to that. He broke the confidence before anybody.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

I have a lot of notes on that. Oh, yeah?

[C]

Do you, Robert, please tell me. Tell me about the notes. You might have.

[B]

It sounds like he's saying he was the first black movie star before Shirley Temple.

[C]

Yes, that's right.

[B]

Which kind of sounds like he's saying Shirley Temple was a black movie star. She was not.

[C]

She was famous, not black. Right. But all right, now here's. All right, so that's what is. So I think. I think. I think that Phil is making a joke because later in her life, Shirley Temple took the name Shirley Temple. She made her a man named Charles Black and took the name Shirley Temple.

[B]

Oh, my God. That's the joke.

[C]

Yeah, I think he's making a joke.

[B]

Right, okay, okay.

[C]

But well, and you know.

[B]

Cause there's this whole thing where like Mickey Mouse, I think there's an argument to be made. Is kind of like his character is based in part on designs from like minstrel show.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[B]

I thought maybe that was the argument he was making.

[C]

No, that's not where he's going.

[D]

Even weirder.

[C]

Oh, my God. So he is like. That's what he sounds like sober. Right. So you can imagine this dude, 12 Navy grogs deep at 2:30 in the morning is illegible.

[B]

It's like trying to Decipher. Ancient Assyrian. Yes.

[C]

All of the security footage shows him leaving the club, stumbling, right? He gets in his car, he calls Lana over. She finally is like, okay, fine. They arrive at his house around 3am after closing down the house of lose. And Phil and Lana go inside and are inside for about two hours when outside, Phil's limo driver, Adriano d' Souza hears a loud noise. He gets out of his car and sees Phil walking out the front door of his house holding a revolver. He says to Adriano, I think I've killed somebody. You should listen to the 911 tapes. I did not get them because I'm a hack and a fraud. Just like, you know, it's a lot of work and remembering shit is hard, but you should listen to the 911 because Adriano gets on there, he says, I think my boss killed somebody. And they're like, what makes you think that? He's like, he's fucking said it.

[B]

Well, he said he killed somebody. Also, by the way, quick piece of advice for those of you who are going to kill somebody. Don't say you killed somebody.

[C]

Don't say you killed somebody. Not a brilliant move. Not exactly what I consider to be the most intelligent way to get out of a crime.

[B]

It's just one simple change you can make to your murders to have better responses to them, folks. That's all I'm saying.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Literally. Yeah. Just don't.

[B]

One little change when you kill someone.

[C]

Little legal advice here, Bastards. Legal advice. I should have made that. That song.

[B]

Not a lawyer, but I bet a lawyer will agree with me. Don't say you murdered someone.

[C]

Yeah, I'm gonna make you a jingle for, like, the next one. That's, like, not actually legal advice.

[B]

Yeah, that'll be great. I give a lot. Out.

[C]

Adriano is just a little backstory on him. He is a. An immigrant. He's a, I believe, Brazilian immigrant. And he. He speaks English extremely well for somebody who is a Brazilian immigrant. He definitely has an accent, without a doubt. But this will be called into, you know, the testimony for a lot of these. There will be a lot of questions about how much he understands English during this time, but if you listen to the 911 tapes, he clearly has a good grasp of English. He tries to call his, you know, Michelle Blaine, his Phil's manager or whatever, but she doesn't answer. And she says later, it's like the only night she's ever left her phone in the car, which is really, really funny to me because I actually picture that she was like, just like for one night, like, I'm not answering Phil's fucking phone calls. This guy's crazy. Because she does say he's always calling her in the middle all of his assistants. Like, yeah, Phil calls me in the middle of the night just to like be like, what are you doing? You know, like. So I'm sure she was like, I left my phone in the car. But aside, right, the cops show up and they don't really know what's going on. They just, there's a gun, somebody's been killed. So they show up and Phil first they pull up and Phil is inside his house just pacing back and forth. And they do a standard tactical approach, which makes perfect sense. And Phil comes outside and he's just rambling incoherently. They're like, sir, get down on the ground. He's like, oh, I didn't do anything. He's just rambling. He, he's visibly intoxicated. He's really trashed, right? But then he starts being like, hey guys, you gotta check this out. This woman, you know, like he like, he starts playing like the worst dumb angle that I've ever seen where it was like, hey, you guys gotta check. You guys wanna see this dead body? And he keeps trying to stick his hands in his pockets. And at this point the cops have no idea what's going on. They keep being like, take your hands outta your pocket, take your hands out of your pocket.

[B]

But never hands in pockets.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, for cops. Yes, for sure. Hey, these are my hands. They're here, right here. Look at them. Police video, you know, so he doesn't have to do that. Yeah, he won't do it. He keeps sticking his hands and in his pockets and they shoot him with a taser.

[B]

And I don't know, I guess he doesn't get to do that.

[C]

I don't know if the taser bounced off of him and he just got an unlucky like shot of the taser. Or if Phil is just like in hulk mode at that point or whatever. They just say the taser is ineffective in all the sources.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Incredible. So I don't know if he just is like, you think that hurts?

[B]

I've known a couple of people that happened too. I've known someone who ripped the leads out. So it does happen from time to time.

[C]

I knew a guy who ripped the leads out and then broke two cop dogs legs and was charged for attempted murder. So no surprise there, right? And he was on a herculean amount of alcohol at the time.

[B]

That makes sense.

[C]

Maybe a little meth? Who's saying maybe a little meth?

[B]

You know like at that point. Yeah, yeah. You know who else is on a little bit of meth will A herculean amount probably.

[C]

According to my research.

[B]

The sponsors of this show.

[C]

Let's cut to them.

[E]

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[C]

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[E]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

We're the most back. And we are. Phyllis just walked out of his house with a dead Lana Clarkson in. In the foyer of his house. In the foyer.

[B]

I'm gonna say foyer. Thank you.

[C]

I'm gonna say foyer. You know, I wanna. I wanna class it up a little bit. I'll get the real.

[B]

I'm a foyer just to really throw a look.

[C]

Foyer for a year.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes. Solid. People are gonna love that pronunciation. There won't be a subreddit about that? No.

[B]

All right.

[C]

So they're mad. They tried to shoot him with a taser. Phil won't go down.

[B]

Didn't work, didn't take.

[C]

And so the front cup has one of those big 40 pound shields and they just rush him with this shield. Keep again your mind again. That is like a third of Phil Spector's body weight easily. So. So they fuck him up. Dude.

[B]

That does not surprise me. Yeah, I bet that shield weighed more

[C]

needed inside the house. The cops find Lana Clarkson slumped over in a chair by the front entrance. There's a gun by her left foot and blood splatter all over her shirt and her skirt. There's an open drawer beside her and an Empty leather holster matching the gun that is at her feet. Right on the floor are her front teeth, which have been knocked out of her mouth by the muzzle of the gun.

[B]

At first look, exactly the way you wouldn't shoot yourself. Yes, but at first look, realistically, it

[C]

does appear as though Lana Clarkson has possibly killed herself.

[B]

Sure. It certainly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[C]

But of course, Phil can't shut the fuck up, right? Which naturally, you know, so he starts Phil Spector. And one cop has the presence of mind to start an audio recorder, sets it aside, and he's like, would you believe it? Like, she just. Her head just did that, you know, like, just nothing. I didn't do anything. I can't believe this woman came into my house like this, right? He's like losing his mind. He's talking all sorts of shit. But, like, cops are like, okay, well, we're, I mean, we're going to at least take you to jail, collect some evidence, do the due diligence, even though believable enough of a story. But we'll, we'll get to why it falls apart pretty. It gets pretty flimsy. Sure, he's taken to jail, he's talking like, most of the time, and then suddenly. And he says stuff like, oh, she kissed the gun. You know, like, he says, like, weird stuff like that. But his stories are just, like, intertwined. It's like he's inventing the narrative as this is happening, as he's being questioned, as they're talking to him. He's inventing the narrative and just seeing what makes sense, you know, what people react to. It seems like he's a bit of like a choose your own adventure game over here. And he's like, if the cop's eyebrows go up, turn to page 97, you know, so. But eventually he does start sobering up and realizes he should shut the fuck up, which he does. And the next day, he. He bails himself out on a $1 million bond. Of course he has that money. So, yep, Michelle Blaine, his assistant, and Phil, they hole up in a hotel because the police are searching his house and conducting a thorough investigation immediately. The cop on the scene, the cop, the detective that's the signed to the case, he immediately realizes that this is going to be under intense scrutiny. So he. Unlike many of the other court cases that are famous for this time we're talk. OJ Simpson just happened. Robert Blake just happened. A lot of botched police work in these cases, intentionally or not, who knows? OJ's son probably killed him anyway. So he recognizes I better do things by the book. I better do things. Right, Right. So he starts suspecting Phil and he starts collecting serious evidence. And the evidence collected points that, you know, it's probably nefarious at least. Right. But there's some conflicting pieces of evidence. First, Lana does have gunshot residue on her hands, but Phil does not. Oh, okay, so Phil somehow in this situation has not gotten gunshot residue on him.

[B]

Yeah, which is possible, but, yeah, that definitely is like an argument that his defense attorney is going to be able to use for sure.

[C]

Yes. There is blood all over Lana's shirt. This is, I mean, if anybody's ever seen this type of injury or this is a bloody event. The, the, the way it, you know, the, the, the head basically compresses everything and it expels back out the mouth, which is why also her, her teeth were knocked out. Right. So she has a tremendous amount of blood on her on her chest and on her legs, but it stops at a very specific point. Right. Phil's saliva is on her drink glass as well as hers, suggesting that they did kiss. And it's also on her breast. So there is some sexual contact that has occurred in some manner. Without a doubt.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Phil does not have blood splatter on himself, at least not in the suggested amount had he been in that situation. Right. Upstairs, the police find the white jacket that Phil was wearing when he was last seen at the House of Blues. And although it has blood on it, the specs are tiny. This is not like indicative of what you would expect for someone who has just killed somebody that way. Right. It's like he is, he is conspicuously absent of any evidence that points to it. And you know, like, with stuff like that bloody, you know, forensic. We've done our conversations on forensic evidence and everything, being kind of a made up CSI thing, but.

[B]

Right.

[C]

There is a certain expectation for certain things, like the amount of blood that should be on you and the gunshot residue that should be on you had you been the one pulling the trigger. Right. So they find this, this white jacket. And then they also find the gun that's on the floor by her foot. It has no blood on it and no prints. And upstairs in a bathroom, they find a cloth diaper that has blood all over it. You know, like the, like true, like baby, like old school baby. They reference this a lot. I've never used a CL diaper to clean my guns, but apparently that's like the jam or was in the early 2000s.

[D]

I don't know.

[C]

They talk, they talk about it. As though I'm supposed to just know that that's what was going on.

[B]

I'm sure you could. Like, I can see why it would work. And it's probably cheap. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And as someone who loves guns, I've never even thought about that. And I have a baby, so I don't know, man.

[B]

I've never had a. But I've never had access to. I've never seen a fabric diaper

[C]

anyway, so they mention it a lot. It's a big deal. But I don't really get why the diaper part of it was so significant. But they, they. But it is that it is covered in blood. And he is clearly evidence. Points to the fact that he probably used this to clean off the gun. Because obviously the gun should have fingerprints and blood on it and has neither. What I consider the most damning evidence is that Lana was found in the chair at Phil's front door with her purse slung over her shoulder. It seems very indicative that she was trying to leave. Right. He's like, they're in a big 22 room mansion and she's by the front door with her purse over her shoulder. It seems like she is trying to get out of this house.

[B]

Yeah,

[C]

there's some, you know, like I said, some really conflicting stuff. Uh, there's. There's blood, like, everywhere, except on Phil. And there is gunshot residue. Again, not on Phil. Everything in Phil's house is red, by the way. This is just a side note that I found. Really Everything in his house. When you look at the crime scene photos, they're all red. Everything's red everywhere. And I'm like, that's been such a pain in the ass. Trying to find evidence inside this house that's just like red everywhere. It's crazy.

[B]

Seeking blood spatter in that house. Yeah.

[C]

So they also find Vicodin and alcohol in Lana's blood. The bullet went in her mouth and pierced her spinal cord and likely killed her almost instantly. They find a bruise on her tongue, which is a very unlikely thing if she had put the gun in her mouth herself. You know, it's like that's not an injury you have if it hasn't been forcibly put in your mouth. The cops build their case, and it's not until November of 2003 that they finally charge Phil formally with murder. So good, solid six months goes by before they, you know, but they're doing their job appropriately. You can't half ass these charges. You have to make sure that coming into this, you are absolutely ready for it. Right. So Something I never see in any of the documentaries about this is it's not until March 2007. 7. That they begin the trial for Phil. The entire time, he's walking around a free man. So she's killed in. In February of 2003. He does not go on trial until March of 2007. Right. He has years of just walking around free, knowing what he's done and everything that's going on, you know, so he just, you know, he's just chilling during this time. He does his best to be smirch Lana at every opportunity. Like, he starts beginning his, like, public narrative. And his lawyers are basically like, phil, you need to stay the fuck off of the goddamn, like, tv. And he's like, you guys don't know what I'm doing. I'm making a case. I'm going to get there. Right? He. He begins claiming that she killed herself and that he was the victim in the situation. It's like he literally is like, this happened to me. This happened to me. Can you believe it? Like, she killed herself and this happened to me, and I'm the innocent victim.

[B]

Had to deal with it. Yeah.

[C]

Yes. He was angered by his lawyers in 2006 because they couldn't get his case thrown out. So he begins this, like, series of home videos that he posts on the. What is still very much the new Internet, right? This is like the early 2000s. He's making his own website and posting these videos on. And his. His assistant, Michelle Blaine, she. She helps him make these videos, right? And it's. They're the most unhinged videos here. Sophie, could you show the. I forget what it's called.

[D]

Self interview.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, that's the one. Sophie, could you show that for us?

[D]

Unfortunately, I can

[B]

not have anything to do with her death. She may have accidentally taken her own life. She may have purposefully taken her own life. She may have been eating the gun with her dancing. She may have been doing anything. I don't know why, when, how, or where. In what circumstance she may have taken her own life, whether she planned to or not.

[C]

Motherfucker.

[B]

Are you freestyling right now?

[C]

Are you his lawyer? Just sitting over there like, are you freestyling, motherfucker?

[B]

Get pounding tums. Pounding tums.

[C]

I always think. I think about. Did you see this recent thing with the billionaire dude? I forget his name, the bayonet dude, where his lawyer is like, if you don't shut the fuck up right now, I'm gonna kill you.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

That's a good defensive attorney.

[C]

Yes, that guy's a professional. That's why he makes the professional.

[D]

If you give more than a five word answer, I'm gonna fucking kill you.

[C]

This motherfucker is out here wearing puka shells and Hawaiian shirts being like, I don't know why she did it. She was kissing the gun.

[B]

She had a gun in her mouth and was dancing. I don't know.

[C]

Michelle, his assistant, she says this is where she really starts to, like, the facade of Phil breaks down for her and she. She starts being like. I don't know if I'm like, cut out for being around this. And she tries to quit. And Phil, she brings her son with her to quit because she's afraid of Phil. Her son's like giant. Phil's saying he's gonna kill her. Phil's like screaming at the top of her lungs while she's walking out. She says that Phil sexually harassed her. Claimed that. She claims that Phil told her, hey, we should get married so that you don't have to testify, you know, because if you were married, you can't be, you can't testify, you know? And she's like, I don't know anything, motherfucker. Like, does she.

[B]

Please tell me, why are we starting this?

[D]

Does she sue the shit out of this motherfucker? Please tell me she sues the shit out of.

[C]

She does sue him. She has to sue him because he. He promises her money, he promises her all sorts of stuff and he does not come through on his promises. So it does end up like all this, like, film stuff she gets. Her name's all over it and shit. It looks really bad for her. It probably does fuck up her career for a little while, but Hollywood, baby, it's probably fine. So she does leave. She files a lawsuit against him to claim what she owed. I think she does make a little bit of. Get a little bit of it back, but I'm sure most of it got lost to lawyers. Blood sucking fucking lawyers. Yeah, so. So the court case, right, the prosecutors, they. They go out and they're like, hey, anybody had a gun pressed to their head by Phil Spector? And fortunately, fortunately, John Lennon is dead. So he got a gun pressed right against his head. So he got. He's done for. Actually, I don't think he did. I think he got shot in the chest. But anyway, I'm sorry, I just. I needed that, so. But they do find. They find many, many people. One of them, I'm gonna go through,

[B]

like, there's like a football stadium full of people who had guns pulled on them by Phil Spector.

[C]

It was not a challenge to find people that. Yeah, it was. It was really not like. So Joan Rivers testifies. Joan Rivers, the comedian Joan Rivers that we all know and loved and everything. I think she's dead.

[D]

She is.

[C]

If not, she's dead in spirit, to me, she's dead. So in the. In the mid-1970s, she says she's at Spectre's home and she tries to leave and he won't let her. He points a gun at her head, tells her, don't fucking go anywhere. You're staying right here. Forces people at gunpoint to stay. This is the picture that they want to paint. This is what they're trying to say. Phil gets mad when people want to go homey. He doesn't like it. So. So Joan Rivers, she. She testifies. BJ Cook, another singer, claims that around the mid-1970s, testified that Spectre threatened her with a gun during an argument while she was visiting him.

[B]

She.

[C]

She wasn't allowed to leave until he could calm down. Pam Shaw or Pam Jackson, depending on who reports it. She testified Spectre pulled a gun during an argument and blocked her from leaving her residence. Kathleen Sullivan, in the 1980s, testified that Spector threatened her with a firearm during a confrontation at his home. Jesus Christ. I think the end tally was like, 12 people that they found that were open to, like, yeah, Phil Spector threatened me with a gun trying to leave his house. It's always that narrative, especially since, you know, Lana is found with her purse on her shoulder, she's trying to leave the house. This is when Phil Spector loses his mind, is when you try and go home.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

So. So Spectre during the trial is insane. He's. He's crazy. It's. It's. This is why, first off, this is why every time my pubes get a little unruly, I tell my girlfriend that I'm putting Phil Spector on trial. Right? Because. Oh, here, let me pull this. Let me pull this photo up. This is amazing. This is.

[D]

I think you just broke Robert.

[C]

This is Phil Spector's hairdos during the trial, right?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

He changes his hair every fucking trial, right? Oh, my God. This brings us to. This is, like, one of my favorite moments.

[B]

How did I get. How he got it back? Right? Okay.

[C]

One of my favorite moments in early Hollywood history. This is his booking photo, by the way.

[B]

I'm going to talk about these hairstyles. I'm going to describe these to the audience.

[C]

Hold on. Before we do that, real quick. I Would just want to pivot and show you Phil Spector's. One of my favorite moments in Internet history. Right. Is during this time, because there was a thread where they kept continuously photoshopping bigger and bigger hair on Phil Spector. It's in here. It's in here. Yeah, Here it is. So the Internet thought this was hilarious, and they just keep photoshopping bigger and bigger hair on until he's got, like,

[B]

the Death Star version of an Afro on his head. Yeah, he's beautiful.

[C]

So he is. I mean, he is making a spectacle of this trial. Let's go to the hair real quick. You talk about the hair.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So he's wearing different wigs all the time.

[B]

First off, what's fascinating about this to me is that the first three look like mug shots. They look like he has just committed. And one of them, he has no wig and he's balding, and he looks like he got off the Con Air flight.

[D]

That is like mugshot, by the way.

[B]

Yeah, that is. I mean, that is his literal mug shot. The other one does look like a mug shot, but he has a wig on, but he's looking up at the camera with eyes so wide, it looks like he's just seen a hand grenade go off.

[C]

So I want to point out. So I'm pretty sure that the second one is his actual night of the incident booking photo, and then the first one is his booking at the time of prison photo.

[B]

That makes sense.

[C]

So it does. They are probably mugshot. And he does look fucking crazy in there. The third one, he looks like Beetlejuice,

[B]

which is amazing, but he looks like Beetlejuice. The top right one, he looks like

[C]

he just got done with his boy band audition.

[B]

I was gonna say he looks like Ben Stiller in Tropic Thunder as Simple Jack. Like that, Right?

[F]

Yeah.

[B]

And then the bottom one, it looks like he's. It looks like someone gave the super ooze that made the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to Joe Dirt's mullet. Like, that's how he looks in the last photo. All right, that's what I've got.

[C]

Yeah. It's amazing, dude. He's showing. He's making a total spectacle out of this whole thing.

[B]

They're all very different. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

He's absolutely like, this is the joke. And he doesn't take any of it serious in any way, shape or form. He's constantly arguing with his prosecution or with his defenders. He's. He's like. His lawyers quit time after time after time. For the record, I want to Put this is another thing real quick. I'll go to is over here. There's also a picture here. This is Al Pacino playing Phil Spector in a later movie, which by the way is so stupid and amazing. I highly recommend you watch it. Al Pacino as Phil Spector. You think, you think like, oh no, he's going over the top. But then you see the old videos of Phil Spector, you're like, he's underplaying Phil Spector.

[B]

He's not nearly pulling a gun often enough.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, he's underplaying Phil Spector. Without a doubt. It is a really stupid, bad court documentary type style movie, but it is, it's really good. I totally recommend watching it. It's funny as hell. Al Pacino as Phil Spector is amazing. It's so good. Throughout the proceedings, Spector remained free on bail, continuing to live outside prison while trial unfolded. His courtroom appearances became media spectacles fueled by increasingly bizarre wig choices, which I just showed you. Towering curls, unnatural things like they became symbolic of a man attempting to control public perception even as his legal defense has fallen apart. Sophie, this is for you. Sophie. Yes, Phil, for his part, he does acknowledge that the froze a little overwhelming, right? But he claims it wasn't out of respect, disrespect for the trial, but rather that he was paying respect to Ben Wallace and Albert Einstein, which of course is fucking insane.

[D]

Albert Stein, I fear, I fear Ben Wallace and Albert Einstein, my. My dream man.

[C]

Sophie, will you, will you play the video of Phil describing, describing this? This is.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

This is amazing.

[D]

It's incredible. Robert doesn't know who Ben Wallace is.

[B]

Mm, mm.

[C]

You will shortly.

[B]

I had another question about the photograph that's all over the Internet of you with the Afro. And what I thought was, I think

[C]

he has a sense of humor.

[B]

So what was with you with that?

[F]

That was a tribute to Ben Wallace, the Detroit Piston forward. It took me four and a half hours to get my hair done. I woke up at 4 o' clock in the morning. I worked till 8 o' clock with Rochelle to get my hair that straight up in the air like that. She permed it, she did everything to it. And Ben Wallace is a forward who's the most valuable defensive player of the year. He used to be with the Detroit Pistons the year they won. Two years ago he wore his hair like that. And it was a tribute to Albert Einstein and Beethoven. It was done in jest, but I was wearing my hair like Albert Einstein in those days. I was wearing my hair like Dylan and Nobody was making fun of Dylan. I spent a lot of time on it in tribute to Ben Wallace and tribute to Albert Einstein, but it photographed far beyond my wildest dreams. But I had been wearing my hair that way for about eight months to a year. And it never photographed them. They had pictures that day. It got a little extreme.

[C]

It got a little extreme.

[F]

But photographed for some reason, in one photograph. Only in one photograph.

[D]

The fact that he even knows who Ben Wallace is, that is so crazy to me.

[B]

Starts with Ben Wallace, this one guy who was at the time, significantly, like, famous and relevant. But also it was about these other guys who are a lot less relevant right now that I'm just going to name it, making it increasingly unlikely that I'm telling the truth.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like. And also Mozart. Okay, brother.

[D]

Is this, like, right. Is this, like, right after the pistons win in 2004?

[C]

I would assume so. He does, like. He does like sports. Like, he goes to, like, He's. He's seen often at, like, games.

[D]

And I know. I saw him at a Laker game when I was a kid.

[C]

Oh, that's really funny.

[D]

I saw that. Yeah.

[C]

He also. I don't know if you noticed it, but he hilariously, like, never admits to wearing a wig. Like, in that thing. He said, I woke up and I was. I worked on it for five hours and everything. Yeah. And they're like. So I watched this documentary. I forget which one it was, but they actually interview his wig guy, and he's like. He's like, nah, man, I fucking make his wigs for him, man. I make him wig. He comes in. He's very particular about his wigs. He comes in all the time. But he, like, he will never, ever admit that he's wearing a wig. There's a reporter that interviews him, and they say that while they were interviewing him, they're like, yeah, so what about your wigs? And he's like, what wigs? What wigs? I don't wear wigs. What are you talking about? I did. This is my natural hair. And he goes. And he gets a fuckload of, like, photographs, like, an armful of photographs, and comes back and dumps them in his lap and is like, see? See, These are all me with my hair. This is real hair.

[B]

Normal people keep this many photos to prove that their hair is real. This is a normal thing.

[C]

This is a normal thing to do. I don't know what you're talking about. You know who won't wear wigs to their murder trial?

[B]

That's right. The Washington state Highway Patrol because they don't get charged with murder when they kill people.

[C]

Yeah, see, there we go. Good for them.

[D]

Wow.

[E]

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[C]

And we are back. So the defense did their best to slander Lana. They, they portray her as a failed B movie actress who was down on her luck and depressed. They pushed the theory that she was a star essentially and that, oh, she only went with Phil in the hopes that, you know, she could take advantage of a celebrity. And, and when that didn't work out in the middle of the night she killed herself out of a fit of depression. They brought in her friend who is this shitty woman. Her name is Pumpkin Pie. For the record, that's her name. That's all she's ever referred to as. Pumpkin Pie. Yes. And she is the least believable witness that you've ever seen. Like her testimony is bonkers. It's like everything's like she texted, she texted me that morning and she was depressed. She's always depressed. She hated her life. She says that Lana always said she was going to kill herself if she didn't get this role or you know, like, like things that, some things that like I believe. Right. Like, yeah, like, but like in the way that we all have a sense of humor like you did. I'm fucking off myself if I don't get this role, you know.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

I should definitely get this one.

[B]

Not in a fashionable way.

[C]

Yes. Yeah. And they, they do everything to portray her as a washed up thing, failure. They even played her sketch comedy reel which admittedly was not very good. It was, yeah, it wasn't good. Right. And the defense, they like the. The. Like Phil's wife laughs during she snickers, you know, like, while they're playing it, they make it out to be a laughable situation, but this kind of backfires on them in the sense that it actually humanized her really hard. The juror number nine from the. From the trial says the real had the opposite effect and humanized her. This isn't a quote. I'm just reading it. The real had the opposite effect and humanized her even more to the jury. But despite that, the jury could not come to an agreement, and they were deadlocked at 10, 2, and the judge declared a mistrial. So Phil Spector goes free.

[D]

Horrible.

[B]

Justice is done.

[C]

So, yeah, thank you. And the end. No, no, we get justice. We get justice, my friends. Okay?

[B]

That's the one thing I know about the Phil story. Yeah.

[C]

So real quick, I just want to bring up Rochelle Spector. I mentioned her a few times already. Rochelle Spector was Spector's third wife. She met him initially in the 90s, but they didn't get married in 2006. Probably because she was, like, underage, I think, when she met him. And also, yeah, gross Phil. But, you know, at least he does wait, you know, like, we're from an era of gentlemen. Jimmy Page, David Bowie, George Harrison. Let's not be forgetting that our idols were all horrible, horrible sexual deviants.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But. But Phil always did seem to wait till they were proper adults. So good. Good for him. No matter how weird it was.

[B]

That's something you can say.

[C]

But they do get married in 2006 while Spector's waiting on trial. And then she's decades younger than Phil and, unlike his previous partners, entered his life when his music career was long over and his reputation had already become what it was as a, you know, murdering, reclusive eccentric. So there's very serious, very serious questions about her motivation for doing such a thing. Yes, her motivations absolutely seem to be because she knows bro about to go to jail, and she only has to hold out for a few more years, and then she gets possession of.

[B]

She's in a good situation here.

[C]

She's smart.

[D]

No, I. Take. Take. Sorry, pause. That was not a good situation. He's on trial for murder. She could. That is a dangerous game. It's not worth the check. What are you doing? What are you doing?

[C]

Somebody has a moral compass and a. And an adversion to danger divergent to the. Over here. Thinking. I'd have done that. You know, I'd have Married Phil Spector. At this point, it seems like a, it seems like a proper risk.

[D]

Absolutely not. And he looks like shit anyways.

[B]

Yeah, but the money, she.

[C]

So she's always like in the media, talking to the media and shit. She's behind him all the time. She speaks to reporters on his, on his behalf, insisting on his innocence. She also gets repeatedly warned by the judge during these trials to shut the fuck up or they're going to throw her out because she'll be like, something will happen to be like, that's not true. You know, like just, just being disruptive and stupid.

[D]

Embarrassing ass woman.

[C]

Yeah. In 2009, Spectre was retried for the murder of Lana Clarkson. And this time it lacked the spectacle of the first trial. After the first trial, the, the cameras aren't as interested. People don't really give a shit anymore. Yeah, it's like, that was a big deal then, but it's not a big deal now. No one cares. His team went from several high profile lawyers down to just one. But the prosecution stuck with their premise. Phil Spector has a long history of gun violence and a fear of abandonment that ended in him using his gun as a threat. And when Lana Carr Clarkson rebuked him and tried to leave, he became enraged and killed her. This time the jury did come back in agreement. Phil Spector had killed Lana Clarkson. Phil was convicted of second degree murder and he was sentenced to 19 years to life in prison. Prison. Good.

[B]

Cool.

[C]

Justice. Yay.

[B]

So it happens sometimes.

[C]

Sometimes it happens. Now, briefly, I, I do want to talk about what I actually think is the most likely scenario. I've spent a lot of time digging into this and like, I've developed my own theory, which is a bit may, I mean, maybe, maybe it makes some people mad, but I. We always want to put the victim in a positive light. But I don't think she would have gone from Alhambra to Hollywood if she wasn't desperate and looking to take advantage of this situation. Right. I don't think that like, you know, so 40 is old in Hollywood years. Absolutely. And, and I think the momentum, loss and everything made her desperate to really make something happen. Right. Which we know, like, you know, desperate is the situation where, where, where people will fly or fall. And in this situation, she just became the victim of a shitty situation. Right. I think she went with Phil hoping she could use him to get an opportunity, but I don't think she had any intention of sleeping with him. I think when Phil tried to get sexual with her, she was like, no, this is my limit. I am not interested in this in any way.

[B]

Waving a gun around. You seem like you have a temper. A lot of reasons not to want. With Phil Spector, sure.

[C]

But I do not want to negate. Like, the. The conversation that should be had is like, he was ridiculously drunk. He is absolutely like. Like blind drunk at this point.

[D]

Right.

[C]

And he's probably sexually assaulting her. That is very definitely a likely situation. But I think she got frustrated and was like, all right, I'm out of here. You promised me one drink. I've had my one drink. It's time to go. I think she put on her purse and I think Phil, like he has done many, many times before, pulled out his gun, sat on her lap and forced it into her mouth and said, like, I'm going to kill you if you fucking leave. And I truly believe, honestly, that it was an accidental. That he killed her accidentally.

[B]

Negligently.

[C]

But, yeah, I think it was. Yes. Negligently is what I would consider. Absolutely. Because if you look at all the accounts, every single account that I read about Phil Spector waving a gun around and threatening people to a T, they all said, I didn't really think Phil was going to kill me. I think he was just drunk and. And being dumb. Right. I think he had. I think he had done it so many times in his life, and I think that he had been. And I think that this one time he was too drunk and he pulled that trigger and, And. And he negligently killed her. And I. Because the earliest things he said was an accident. I didn't mean to. This wasn't supposed to happen. You know, like, those are the first things that he says. And I truly believe that that is probably what happened. I think that he is just a bad gun owner who murdered somebody who. It's still murder. It doesn't change the fact that he

[B]

killed her and it doesn't change the punishment that he deserves. It's just 100%. I can buy that share.

[C]

I just. I personally believe. You know, and also, it doesn't change also, you know, like, Phil Spector is a horrible person. His. His legacy leading up to this is one of being an absolute piece of dog shit.

[D]

He's a menace to society.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. He is a menace throughout his entire life.

[D]

You wrote something in your script that you did not read that I think is relevant too, which is that you wrote that earlier in the day that she had bought multiple pairs of shoes, which I think is very important.

[F]

Yes.

[C]

She bought a bunch of shoes. She absolutely was not killing herself.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, despite the, you know, like, you don't buy a bunch of shoes and then be like, ah, tonight's the night.

[D]

You know, it's like, no, that's not really.

[C]

You don't make future plans if you're gonna off yourself. And she had future plans. She talked about her future plans. It does not in any way point towards her being suicidal.

[B]

The evidence is much more suggestive of Phil either killing her, as you said, fucking up. Doing the thing he does all the time that's easily likely to kill someone.

[C]

I think the explanation for the lack of gun residue on his hands was probably that her hands were surrounding his hands while he had a gun held to her face or possibly all the way in her mouth.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe she's fighting him because it's terrifying and the gun pulls the trigger. Right? Yeah.

[C]

I think that that is the most valid explanation. He also absolutely cleaned up afterwards. There's no prints on the gun, there's no blood on the gun. He absolutely cleaned the gun afterwards in order to try and obfuscate some of the situation.

[D]

And then. And then spent years and years trying to ruin this woman's reputation.

[C]

Yes. He goes to jail in 2009, he spends six fucking years free after he kills this woman. That's six years. America. Yeah. This the country. I lost my leg for sort of half. Lost my. I lost the feeling in my leg. I lost the feeling in my leg. That counts. Yeah. So this. It sucks. He spends the remainder of his life incarcerated. He spends decades prior to this emotion constructing these walls. And then he gets imprisoned by the walls that, you know, we construct a society. That's my. Ooh, look at that moment.

[B]

Right.

[C]

We all feel smarter now. In December of 2020, Phil contracted Covid while in prison. And In January of 2021, he died of complications from COVID I didn't mean to laugh, but yeah, he calls his daughter and like. And to tell her, cuz she. He loses contact. But he calls her to tell her, I didn't die on my birthday. Look at me, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

That's his. That's his big, you know, thing. His daughter again. To the end of his life, she. And still today, Nicole, she. She proclaims his innocence and she stands by him. She says, wonderful father, she loves him. What's.

[D]

What's.

[C]

As a.

[D]

What's.

[C]

His other kids fucking hate him. Show up during the trial and like, fuck this dude. He did shitty things.

[D]

But his daughter, I just wonder what wig he was buried with.

[C]

Actually, Sophie, if you wouldn't mind pulling up. Oh, actually, it's me this time. Me this time. I will pull up. We do have a picture of Phil Spector. The last picture before he dies. It looks like this somewhere. Here it is. Bam.

[B]

There he is.

[C]

Phil Spector in all of his glory.

[B]

He does look like an extra from the Santa Claus.

[C]

No wig, crooked teeth, hearing aids in, because he's probably going deaf at this point. It is a stark contrast of everything about him. He dies pretty much deaf, no hair. It's all the things that he fought his entire life. And here he is at the end of his life. Go fuck yourself, Phil. That's how you go out now. Because. Because that is a bit. It's a bit of a happy ending. I'm not gonna pretend it's not a happy ending. No, he's dead because I like to leave us on in even happier ending. Because we go through a lot, don't we, here at Bastards Fandom? We. We go through a lot, right? It's just. It's. You know, I listened to the Himmler episodes. I. It was hard, man. Or the Verenti Beria episodes.

[B]

These are. Yeah, good old barrier.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That guy. This shit's sad, you know? So I want to leave you with a happy ending.

[B]

I love a happy ending.

[C]

After escaping Phil Spector in 1972, Ronnie Spector, or as she would later go by her maiden name, Ronnie Bennett, again entered what she later described not as a triumphant comeback, but a long, grinding fight to reclaim her life, identity and voice. The divorce left her financially constrained and legally silenced while Phil retaining control over much of her catalog and publishing. For years, Ronnie struggled with alcoholism and instability, problems she openly acknowledged and as scars from her captivity. Like this is what she went through, and this is why she is like that, right? But she never fully disappeared. Throughout the 70s and 80s, she continued recording and performing sporadically, collaborating with artists like Eddie Money, Joey Ramone, and slowly rebuilding her sense of self outside Phil's shadow. Survival, not stardom, was the priority. Hold on a second. Fuck. I forgot to mention the Ramones. He pulled a gun on the Ramones and didn't let them leave the studio. I don't know how I missed that one. That's a big. So the Ramones are recording Rock and Roll High School, and Phil is brought in to record them, and he pulls a gun on the whole band and says, you're not leaving till you get the song right, Right?

[D]

Jesus.

[C]

Some members of the band later deny it, but Joey Ramon Said it happened. So it's like they. But yes, so Joey Ramon, definitely. They probably in the studio were like, hey, so Phil crazy, right? Fuck that guy. That guy was a nut, right? You know, I'm sure they had some, Some. Some memories that they shared. In the 1990s and 2000s, Ronnie experienced a long overdue reprisal. As rock history began to properly credit girl groups and female vocalists, her influence became undeniable. Be My Baby was canonized as one of the most important pop recordings ever made. And Ronnie herself was recognized not just as Phil Spector's muse, but as a single, irreplaceable voice. She reunited with the Ronettes for selective performances and released new music on her own terms and became a beloved figure among younger musicians who saw her both as a pioneer and a survivor.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Her 1990 memoir, Be My Baby, was especially important, breaking decades of silence and reframing her story as one of endurance rather than victimhood. I will tell you, this book she wrote is tremendous. She deserves every ounce of credit for being a survivor that she is, because she looks at all this stuff the same way I look at, like, surviving the Iraq war, you know, where it's like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me, but I'm gonna make jokes out of it instead of, like, letting it destroy me. She. She absolutely has such a strength and such a sense of humor about all the things that happened to her. Even the coffin. She's like, I guess he thought that was going to scare me. But Rose, five, four, you know, like, let's not. Let's not kid ourselves. It wasn't like he was going to physically put me in there. When Phil Spector was convicted and imprisoned, Ronnie did not gloat. She simply said, justice has been done. When she died in 2022, she was remembered not as someone who survived a monster, but as an artist whose voice changed popping. And she did get to outlive Phil Spector. She got to see him die and lived a happy year and a half in two years, damn near without him in the world.

[B]

So that's beautiful.

[C]

Good on her. Thankfully, she found happiness and success despite going through this whole thing.

[B]

And she got to see him die.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And that, my friend Robert, is your two week vacation.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

All summed up the story of Phil Spector. He is without. What do you think? Do you. Let's first ask this. What was the most insane thing you think of all of all this?

[B]

The sheer number of very famous people he pulled guns on. Just think about how much clout you have to have to pull a gun on, like the remote.

[C]

John Lennon. The remote.

[B]

John Lennon and everyone.

[C]

Leonard Cohen.

[B]

Don't say anything about it. Like, Leonard. Hey, man, I know you wrote Hallelujah, but you got to keep your fucking mouth shut here. Just say Hallelujah. He didn't pull the trigger.

[C]

Am I right? Yeah. Sophie, what do you think? What's the craziest thing of this whole thing?

[D]

I don't know. That Mickey Mouse video.

[B]

That part was nuts. Yes.

[C]

He just, he offered that willingly. Nobody prodded him. They were like, who do you think was the first Shirley Temple and Mickey Mouse? It's so funny, man. There's so many parts about this guy. And here's why it's so interesting to me, right? Is because as a musician, as a producer, as a person who's worked in the music industry, I've met this guy 100 times at least already. I've met this guy so many times. I have absolutely seen people who I guarantee in, in 30 years or whatever, I'm going to be sitting at home, yeah, they're going to come on and I'll be like, yeah, I saw that coming. Yeah, I saw that coming. That was absolutely going to happen. I predicted this for sure. You know, can't wait for the tell all court interview. So, yeah, so, I mean, that's the thing that I really enjoy about this story is, is the, you know, it is, it is generally just the story of a shitty, shitty, shitty person. There's a lot of those in Hollywood. But I, I, I like to separate. Like, this is one of, like, for example, right, when Michael Jackson, when, when a lot of the, the, the, the most recent things have come out, I kind of made a choice. Like, I feel like, man, I don't need to listen to your music anymore. Like, if I, all the classics are there, but I just don't, I don't, I'm not going to get mad if anybody else does, but I definitely, I'm drawing a line between that was wrong and I don't like it. Lost profits. I don't listen to lost profits anymore. But Phil Spector had such an undeniable hold on so many important artists and so many songs that it's just like to erase that would be erasing a core part of my being that you did that existed before Phil Spector killed Lana Clarkson in 2003. You know, like, all of those songs existed in my life before then. And, and it really, it's like, it's, it's difficult it's, it's a difficult thing. And, and, and also, you know, I like to take some tiny bit of solace in the fact that like I, I can tell other people how, how horrible and shitty he was.

[B]

Sucked.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was the shittiest person. He made some bangers. He did some amazing things that, that are like just not have not been replicated in the music industry. And undeniably a huge sonic inspiration for me. Like I literally consider myself to be the stereo. Phil Spector, like this dude, he was divorced three times. Nailed it. Phil, you know. No, but musically, musically really he does so much. I truly believe in what he does. Like the way that he crafted the music that he did. It's how I like to use the studio as part of the process of making music, to have these creative moments. And I'm largely inspired by him and the Beatles in doing that. And so it is hard to remove that. So my justification is that I'm just out here telling you guys how shitty he was. So it alleviates my conscience.

[B]

Well, there's worse ways to alleviate your conscience. Phil Spector found a few of them,

[C]

man. So thank you so much for letting me do this. This was so much fun. If you're interested in the music from the episodes, I'm gonna give that to Sophie so she can post it. I'm also going, I'm gonna give even like the stems and the sessions. So if you're a musician and you wanna remix some of this stuff to make your own little home. Bastard. Weird versions of socks, you can grab those from Sophie. I'll put them on my stuff too. Also, I'm fighting the music industry from the inside. I actually, I did all the label thing. Obviously I have a Grammy and I've done the whole label thing, but I decided to, to be the change I want to see in the music industry. And so I am starting my own label. I am working very hard at pushing my own identity in this that is different from the exploitive AI driven ownership of publishing bullshit that the industry has become. And I really am trying. So if you care about that at all. Guilt trip for all of you listeners.

[B]

That's right.

[C]

Come and check out my new artist. Her name is Violet Lux. I'm going to release the song concurrent with this, with these episodes so that you can hear my very first artist that I'm signing to the label. It is, it's entirely Phil Spector inspired type stuff. I'm wall of sounding with the music, but if you like 90s grunge rock if you like Alison Chains if you like Mazzie Starr, if you like Nirvana, if you like Smashing Pumpkins. This is gonna be right up your alley so come check it out. The vinyl will be coming out too, so check that out as well. And yeah, I got a podcast and other shit. So thank you for letting me do this, man. This has been so much fun. I love telling my friend this is like what we do when we're just hanging out. It's like explaining shitty people to each

[B]

other, Phil Spector particular.

[C]

So it's fun to get to do this on the side stage that you have become and I'm so proud of you, man. It's awesome to see you doing so well with all this and all you do. Nerds on the subreddit who talk on Sophie, I swear to God I'll hunt you down like that Jay and Silent Bob movie and beat the out of you.

[B]

That's right. That's what we do.

[C]

This has been a podcast. That's how I end my podcast.

[D]

Bye.

[B]

It is over.

[D]

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit remind me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel. YouTube.com BehindTheBastards we love about 40% of you, statistically speaking

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[C]

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