Part One: Lee Atwater: The Political Dirty Tricks Artist Who Gave us President(s) George Bush

Summary

Behind the Bastards: Part One – Lee Atwater: The Political Dirty Tricks Artist Who Gave us President(s) George Bush

Podcast: Behind the Bastards
Host: Robert Evans (A), with guest Garrison Davis (B)
Date: August 26, 2025
Producer: Cool Zone Media & iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the early life and formative experiences of Lee Atwater, the infamous Republican strategist who fundamentally changed American political campaigning. Atwater’s use of “dirty tricks,” aggressive negative campaigning, and the development of “push polling” redefined presidential elections, playing pivotal roles in electing Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, and influencing political figures like Karl Rove. Through colorful storytelling, Robert Evans and Garrison Davis paint a picture of a man shaped by privilege, trauma, and a relentless desire to manipulate, polarize, and win—at any cost.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Lee Atwater and His Importance

• Lee Atwater: Political mastermind of late 20th-century Republican strategy.
• Atwater was instrumental in Reagan's and George H.W. Bush’s elections, a pioneer of “push polling” and negative campaign tactics.
• He directly influenced Republican campaign culture and was a key mentor to Karl Rove.
• Quote [01:15]:
  • "This is kind of the guy who invented the way modern presidential elections work." (A, 01:15)
• Comparison to Roger Stone: Atwater was more competent and less showy.
  • "Roger Stone kind of drafted a lot off of Lee's accomplishments." (A, 02:12)

2. Atwater’s Ancestry and Southern Aristocracy

• Both sides of Atwater’s family were long-established, upper-middle-class “aristocracy” with roots in North and South Carolina, tracing lineage back before the American Revolution.
• Not truly old-money rich, but steeped in generational privilege and deep local political connections.
  • "We are talking about both families are about as close as the US gets to aristocracy." (A, 15:22)

3. Family Values and Early Upbringing

• Atwater’s household was highly education-focused, with parents investing deeply in their children’s schooling and discipline.
• His father’s side featured partisan Republican legacy; his mother’s side, too.
• Notable family moment: Atwater's ancestor almost sold land to Napoleon Bonaparte for exile in New York State.
  • "What a wild thing that would be... if they're just, like, yeah. And that's Napoleon's house outside of Schenectady." (A, 15:13)

4. Troubled Childhood and Formative Trauma

• Born three weeks premature, Atwater had lifelong nerve and energy issues—what would today be diagnosed as ADHD.
  • "He always kind of has some of these nervous systems issues...he can't hold a pen or a pencil properly." (A, 20:30)
• His mother doted on him constantly; he was awkward, needy, and found solace in memorization over reading/writing.
• At age 6, witnessed his 3-year-old brother’s horrific death by boiling oil—an event that haunted him, shaping his worldview.
  • Quote [36:00]:
    • "He said that he heard the sounds of his brother's screams every day of his life." (A, 36:33, citing journalist Jane Mayer)
  • Evans and Davis hypothesize this experience led to his emotional separation and nihilistic approach to life and politics.

5. Early Evidence of Manipulation and Performance

• As a child, Atwater tricked adults into believing he could read; began to value perception over substance.
  • Quote [19:04]:
    • "All that matters is perception. If people think I can do something, it doesn't matter if I've done it or not." (A, 19:04)
• Developed compulsive habits of lying, manipulating, and controlling situations to assert dominance.
  • "He can't have an equal relationship with you... he has to have some degree of power." (A, 39:20)
• Fell in love with blues, soul, and especially the music of James Brown—a lifelong passion and lens for understanding culture.
  • "He loves R & B, he listens to James Brown for the first time... that's it for him, he has found his true love in life." (A, 44:01)
• Was a perpetual class clown and prankster; loved by peers but described as a “leader” or “manipulator” depending on the observer.

6. Proximity to Power and Segregation-Era Politics

• Grew up near Strom Thurmond—a living link to Southern racism, Democratic-to-Republican party realignment, and national politics.
  • Thurmond infamously filibustered the Civil Rights Act and had a secret biracial child.
  • Quote [27:01]:
    • "He later recalled, 'He came out and gave me a Snickers candy bar. That was the best thing I got that year. So I liked Senator Thurmond, but I didn't know anything about politics.'" (A, 27:01, quoting Atwater)

7. School Life, Friendships, and the Roots of Campaign Tactics

• Poor academic performer, but deeply socially influential; loved organizing, selling, and “winning over” others for the thrill—never for the reward.
  • "It's not about the money, it's about the winning." (A, 45:29)
• At military school, honed skills in manipulation and risk-taking (e.g., orchestrated dangerous pranks with zero regard for others’ welfare).
• Back in high school, orchestrated his first “campaign” for a friend using fabricated endorsements, false promises, intimidation, and polarization.
  • Quote [64:23]:
    • "I learned how to organize and I learned how to polarize." (Lee Atwater, as quoted by A, 64:23)
  • Notably, his team physically intimidated peers to ensure votes, relishing the power and spectacle.

8. Atwater’s “Performance Self” and Inability for Authentic Connection

• Romantic relationships characterized by compulsive dishonesty and constant need to perform for approval or dominance.
  • Quote [53:28]:
    • "I'm just tired of being the second half of the show. I feel like I've got to be part of a stunt routine." (Debbie, Atwater’s girlfriend)
  • Consistent theme: Atwater could not connect honestly or vulnerably with others.

9. A Love for Black Music—with Paradoxical Racist Political Impact

• Atwater’s personal love for R&B and black musical culture runs parallel to his political career, where he would exploit and deepen racial divisions for electoral gain.
• The hosts foreshadow the deep tension between this personal enthusiasm and his infamous “Southern Strategy” politics in later years.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Political Manipulation:
  "He understands all that matters is perception... that's gonna be the core of how this guy relates to other people." (A, 19:04)
• On His Emotional Disconnection:
  "The person seeking popularity and a stage would almost always overrule the nice guy, the more genuine part of him. I don't think he could stop it." (Debbie, Atwater’s high school girlfriend, [55:29])
• On Atwater’s Impact:
  "Lee Atwater's tactics win. He doesn't personally get to win. So there's a little bit of satisfaction in this." (A, 33:12)
• Host’s Reflection:
  "If only he'd just become like John Hughes, we could have been saved a lot of horror as a species." (A, 65:11)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Introduction, Lee Atwater’s Influence – 01:15
• Family Background & Ancestry – 08:01 to 16:20
• Early Childhood & Nervous Disorder – 16:20 to 22:10
• Brother’s Death & Emotional Fallout – 34:38 to 37:56
• School Life, Early Pranks, Manipulation – 38:19 to 41:46
• First Exposure to Political Power (Thurmond) – 23:13 to 27:01
• Musical/Performance Obsession – 44:01 to 46:57
• Manipulating First School Election – 63:33 to 64:55
• Analysis of Atwater’s Tactics & Disconnection – 53:28 to 58:59

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Tone and Style

Robert Evans maintains a darkly comedic, irreverent, and conversational tone, blending grim historical detail with banter and absurdity—often punctuated by Garrison’s asides and Sophie’s (producer) interjections. The hosts use irony, gallows humor, and open disgust at their subject’s actions, while still expressing empathy about formative trauma.

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For Listeners New to the Episode

• This first part focuses on Atwater’s formative experiences, his sociopolitical environment, and early demonstrations of the manipulative skills he’d later weaponize on a national scale.
• The show foreshadows that the “fun” and “prankster” dynamics of Atwater’s youth morph directly into the win-at-all-costs ruthlessness that would reshape American politics—and bring with it both victories and lasting damage.
• Expect part two to cover his adult career, notorious political campaigns, and the larger ramifications for US democracy.

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Transcript

[A]

Call Zone Media. Robert Evans here, and I just finished committing a light form of tree genocide on some invasive trees that live in my side yard called the Trees of Paradise. If you've ever encountered one of these trees, go murder it right now. Stop your podcast. Kill that tree. If it's on your neighbor's property, knock down their fence. Do whatever you have to do to get to that tree. Kill it. Kill them all. Garrison Davis, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hello. Thank you.

[A]

So violent. Do you hate the Tree of Paradise, Garrison?

[B]

I remember some struggles years ago, but my problems have escalated.

[A]

Yeah, it's the tree that smells like yeast when you cut it down and grows forever and very quickly. It's the devil. It's the evil tree.

[B]

No, luckily there's no trees on the east coast, so not my problem.

[A]

They got rid of all the trees. Not as much of a joke as we'd like it to be. They've been growing back over the last 200 years. But, yeah, they did kill all the old growth a while ago. Garrison, Speaking of killing the planet, you know who loves to kill the planet?

[B]

Billionaires, I guess. I don't know. Fascists. Billionaires. That whole area.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, billionaires, fascists. And the political party that they largely use for a lot of their dirty work, the Republican Party. This week, we're talking about a guy who is responsible for kind of breaking politics in a major way in the United States. He played a huge role in getting Ronald Reagan and George H.W. bush elected. And he pioneered a kind of polling called push polling. That's like one of the most toxic methods of doing, you know, dirty tricks, campaign ads to this day. This is kind of the guy who invented the way modern presidential elections work. He's a fellow named Lee Atwater, and he was a strategist for the Republican Party. Have you heard of this guy?

[B]

I've heard of the name. I feel like it's one of those Roger Stone types that probably combined him with a few other people, but don't have a clear idea on who this guy is. But it's like one of the. It's like somewhere in that Rolodex of guy.

[A]

Yes, he's very close to Roger Stone. He was much smarter and better at his job. Like, Roger Stone kind of drafted a lot off of Lee's accomplishments. The thing Lee is. One of the things Lee is most known for is his protege was Karl Rove, George W. Bush's campaign manager. Like, he was the guy who got Karl Rove his start and taught him everything he knows. The guy who George W. Bush nicknamed Turdblossom. That's a true story, Garrison. And that was a compliment.

[B]

I can't believe our president would pick demeaning names for his friends enemies. This is crazy.

[A]

It was not meant to be. Anyway, that's another story for another day when we do the Karl Rove episodes. But this guy, Lee Atwater, is one of my slept on. If you had a time machine, who would you go back and assassinate? Guys. No, no, really, I'm going after Attwater. Yes. Wow. We'll see how you feel about this.

[B]

What do you think the trickle down effects of that are gonna be?

[A]

Well, you know, you never know when you go back in time and assassinate people.

[B]

This is what we know about time travel.

[A]

Yes. Like I went back in time and assassinated, you know, super Hitler and we just got regular Hitler. And now everybody thinks regular Hitler was just as bad as super Hitler. Trust me, super Hitler was much worse than regular Hitler. But, you know, it turns out it's Hitler's all the way down. If you keep killing Hitler's, you just get different versions of Hitler's. Anyway, a little bit of time travel information for those of you out there looking to go back in time and kill regular Hitler. Someone already did it. Wow.

[B]

I mean, yeah. That is kind of what happens in Terminator, right?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, basically. Yeah. That's the gist of Terminator.

[B]

Cause I've seen like five different cg, like Arnold Schwarzeneggers at this point. So no matter what you take care of, they're always gonna make some deep faked version again.

[A]

Yeah, that's really the ultimate message of the Terminator movies. Oh, my God.

[B]

Deepfake Hitler. When's that gonna be in a blockbuster?

[A]

That's already the Hitler we've got. Garrison, keep up. It's not the original one. Before we close out the cold open, I would like to do a plug for a fundraiser we're doing for the Portland Defense Fund. They bail people out of jail and provide support to people in custody. Most of the people they help are houseless folks who don't have any resources to fight the cases against them. If you go to donorbox.org if you type in defense fund PDX donor box, you'll find their donor box page and that would help a lot. They could use the donations and their Venmo is defensefundpdx, so please help them out. All right, that's the end of the cold open. This is an Iheart podcast.

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[A]

We'Re back. So we're talking about Lee Atwater, who was born Harvey Leroy Atwater. And he would always describe his upbringing. His family backgr is the middle of the middle class. Now whenever a high ranking political strategist kind of guy says that I came from the very middle of the middle.

[B]

He was a pretty wealthy.

[A]

Yeah, top. We'll say top of the middle. He wasn't rich, but top of the middle class. Right.

[B]

Comfortable.

[A]

Both his mom and his dad know like their family origins in the United states going back 200 something years, which is not like the norm for an American. Right. It's a little more normal in these kind of like Carolina families than it is in say Oregon. But this is.

[B]

Or you know, with like the 23andMe stuff where you can like find it.

[A]

But, but yeah, no, and it's. They know their relatives because they had famous ancestors.

[B]

Like they have like a family lineage.

[A]

Right, Right. His mother was Tottie Paige. She got the name Totty because she toddled around as a kid, I think. And it's a very like fucking middle 20th century wife name. Yeah. Totty. She traced her family line back to a Revolutionary war hero named Alexander Craighead. His descendants married into a North Carolina family and migrated down to South Carolina where they ultimately produced Gabriel Cannon Page, who became postmaster for the state and was the first Republican politician in the family. And this is back when the Republicans were unequivocally the good guys. We are talking about like Reconstruction era. Right?

[B]

This is like 18, 1870s or something.

[A]

Yeah, we're talking about like I think pre, I think he starts before the Civil War. But yeah, this is like around the period when like they're definitely the good guys. He has a son called Leroy, which is where R. Lee Atwater takes his name from. Who's born in 1891 and as a teenager is permanently maimed, has his leg fucked up forever in a horse drawn wagon accident. You know it's gonna be a good episode when we get a wagon accident right off the bat. Like a load bearing wagon accident.

[B]

This is important.

[A]

This is an important wagon accident. I'll tell you why in a minute. Now, like most 20 year olds in 1911, he elopes with a 16 year old named Irene. He moves, I don't know, like a town over. It's not hard to elope back then. And he becomes a mailman like his father. He's able to support his siblings through the Depression because he's the only Page with a stable job. And his family recalls that because he's got this busted leg. He used to be a very active guy and he can't be physically active after his leg gets fucked up. And he compensates by becoming a really good storyteller. He's just spellbinding. He's so good that he publishes a volume of like tales from his childhood as a book, which I'm going to guess are like partly true given his descendants. But he's got the gift of gab and he's going to like pass this on to his kids and it's going to become a thing that the men in the, in the Page family are known for as being like really smooth talkers. Right. Really good at telling stories. Like his father, he grows up to be an extreme partisan Republican. In the book Bad Boy, a biography of Lee Atwater, John Brady writes, the Pages were Republicans in an era when there was no Republican Party in South Carolina. In 1932, when the framed portrait of FDR replaced the picture of Herbert Hoover in the classrooms of Spartanburg, there was enthusiastic applause from all but the Page children who sat on their hands. Question, why is the worms turned? Why is the book called Bad Boy? Because that's his favorite song. Sophie, we'll be getting to Lee Atwater in a little bit. And his, his love of R and B, don't you worry. Oh boy.

[B]

This is the beginning of the little switcheroo.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Not like a real switcheroo, but like shifting politics, I guess.

[A]

Right, right. And you're seeing also shifting racial politics. Like this is around the time when black voters stop voting for Republicans and start voting for Democrats. And you can kind of see the party has, this is now. The party has gone from like the party of Lincoln, violently opposed to slavery and supporting at least more equality than the other party. When they're like FDR that fucking communist. Right? Like, things have changed. The pages make sure that all of their children grow up voracious readers. And they were. We'd call them helicopter parents today. Right. They're obsessively concerned with their kids, even their daughter's educations. They're studying their homework. They're, like, quizzing them and stuff. They're unusually involved in their education for parents of this period of time. And most of Totty's elders live to their 90s. So she raises her kids with the expectation that you guys are gonna live long lives. Right. It's traditional for her relatives to make it into their 90s. That is a little bit of foreshadowing.

[B]

Damn, all these fucking guys just live forever.

[A]

I swear to God, Garrison. I'm so happy about where this story ends. Not where it middles, but where it ends for that reason. So Lee's father is Har. We talked about his mom, which is the Page family. His father, obviously, is where he gets the Atwater name. His dad's name is Harvey Atwater. And like the pages, the Atwaters are one of those families who can trace their lineage back to the birth of the country. And in fact, beyond. David Atwater was the first member of the family to flee England for the New World. And he landed in New haven, Connecticut, in 1637. He and his wife had 10 children. And the Atwater family historian, because they have one of those, wrote that they. And quote, their children and grandchildren endured as many hardships, felled as many trees, fought as many Indians, burned as many witches, and tossed over as much tea, and were as good all round pilgrim fathers and mothers as if Grandfather David had arrived in the Mayflower in 1620.

[B]

Good all around.

[A]

Great. What an incredible sentence.

[B]

So he's. They're one of those families. They're one of those families, like, capital T. Those.

[A]

Yeah, those families. And it's very funny. They're the kind of family that. Cause again, his. David atwater arrives in 1637, the Mayflower arrives in 1620. And the family historian is like, well, I have to come up with an excuse for why they're as good basically, as the people who arrived at 1620. Right. Because that's a big difference to us. Like, the fact that we didn't quite make it onto the Mayflower is something that our family takes shit for. Oh, you guys got here 17 years later, huh?

[B]

They're still trying to make up for it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This has been a stain on our family history for centuries.

[A]

Why wasn't he born 17 years or earlier. God damn it, David.

[B]

We really did not want the second generation pilgrim hat.

[A]

No, no, it's not even second. But like, now, David, first version. And to be fair, David does do something to kind of make up for not making it onto the Mayflower, which is that he helps to found Yale. So again, this is the middle of the class, the Atwaters. Now, his great grandson Russell is wounded during the Revolutionary War, and years later, this is one of the weirdest stories related to his. So Russell is a Revolutionary War veteran, and then years later, when Napoleon Bonaparte goes into exile, Napoleon's like, I think I can escape from this island and I might make it to the new World. And for whatever reason, he contracts with Russell to buy land in New York State as a potential place for Napoleon Bonaparte to retire if he escapes.

[B]

That would have been so cool.

[A]

What a wild thing that would be. If they're just like, yeah. And that's Napoleon's house outside of Schenectady.

[B]

God, that would be fun.

[A]

I don't know if it was Schenectady where he bought it was somewhere in New York State. But, yeah, Napoleon was thinking about retiring to New York. Like Lee Pace, really. Two of history's giant, two of history's giants. Only one of them in the literal sense. So again, we're not talking about super rich old money, but we are talking about both families are about as close as the US Gets to aristocracy. Right? They have proud histories, and they've got connections that go back generations to local politics and government in the Carolinas. And this is the legacy that Leroy Atwater, our Lee Atwater, was born to inherit when he came into the world on February 27, 1951, in Atlanta, Georgia. That's how you guys say it, right?

[B]

Yes, that is the official pronunciation.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you. Just making sure so the Reddit doesn't come after me again. So at the time of his birth, his mom.

[B]

It's Atlanta.

[A]

Atlanta, like the AT symbol. Like, that's how you spell.

[B]

What's those T's?

[A]

Yeah, guys. So at the time of his birth, his mother was a teacher and his father, Harvey, was an insurance adjuster. Lee was born. Yes. I hardly know her. Garrison. We should have done that for Atwater. Garrison, what's wrong?

[B]

I thought about it. I'm off my game today.

[A]

It's okay. None of this is going as planned. We had a little mix up before recording. So Lee is born three weeks premature, and as a result, he's got nervous twitches. He spasms constantly. Right. As like a little Kid, he like shakes and his legs are constantly twitching and his parents take him to the doctor and the doctor, I don't know if this is what's actually wrong because we're talking the 50s. But the doctor, probably while smoking a cigarette and still drunk from the night before is like, oh yeah, his nervous system's not finished cooking. Just let him finish, he'll be fine. I don't, I don't know that that's what happened. But he doesn't stop. Like he always kind of has some of these like nervous systems issues, right, like they'll plague him all of his life. And as a result, Totty is like his 247 parent. Like she's unable to get like a sitter because he cries anytime she leaves. He needs like constant 24 hour attention. He barely sleeps. He's a sickly child, right, for the first couple years of his life. So he is, he's, he's attached to his mom and she is by all accounts an extremely dedicated mother. He has trouble sleeping. He can't stand being alone. One of the stories I read about him as a baby is that he develops a habit of banging his head on his crib to rock himself to sleep. And he does it so often that he gets like a bald spot callus on the back of his head.

[B]

That's terrible.

[A]

It's fucked up. This kid's childhood is a nightmare. Actually, it's about to get a lot worse. He has one of the worst childhoods I've ever heard of in one of these bastards. For a kid who's got both of his parents and has a comfortable standard of living, it's rough. Now Totty is an attentive and devoted mother. His dad is kind of a 50s dad. He's mainly working. He's not super emotionally available, but there's nothing, I don't get any sort of allegations that he was like abusive or anything like that either. So you could do worse for a 50s dad than his father. Now Lee is again, he's kind of a late bloomer. But once he starts going, once he starts growing up, he's kind of like a fucking rocket ship. John Brady, his biographer Ron writes, Lee walked at one year, but then he ran. He talked early and often by two onlookers thought he could read, but he had memorized books his mother read to him on her lap. At age two and a half, he could recite the Pledge of Allegiance at the Charleston commencement program. In nursery school, proud Toddy made him say it for company. Not great, not Great.

[B]

That's always a bad start when they start acting like this.

[A]

And the fact that he gets praise as a little kid for tricking adults into thinking he can read is a lifelong pattern with Lee. And he seems to come up with the understanding that, like, all that matters is perception. If people think I can do something, it doesn't matter if I've done it or not. What matters is I've tricked them into thinking I've done it. Right. Like, that's gonna be the core of how this guy relates to other people for his entire life. That, like, lying and misleading someone into thinking that you did something is as good as doing the thing.

[B]

Sounds like he's born for politics.

[A]

Sounds like he is born for politics. No one has ever been more born for politics than Lee Atwater. It's remarkable. W. Now, as I kind of insinuated here, his greatest asset is his memory and his mother's attentiveness. She takes him to museums and to historic sites constantly, and he files away everything she and the different museum docents tell him, which gives his first teachers the impression that he's super well read for a little boy. By the time he started preschool, he had memorized all the presidents. And he's kind of. He's obscuring the fact that he can't read. And he doesn't learn how to read or write for, you know, until later than would otherwise have been normal because he's kind of able to trick them. His handwriting is illegible. It never really gets better throughout his life. Some of this is a result of the nerve. He can't hold a pen or a pencil properly. He's described as always holding writing implements like chalk because he's got, like, these weird nerve issues.

[B]

Yeah. He has, like, the big, like, vice grip thing.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which obviously, that's not his fault, but that's, you know, a factor in how he comes up the way he does.

[B]

I wonder if that caused him to, like, overcompensate by working on his mem. He had these, like, fine motor issues because he had issues with reading. It basically trained his brain that the best way for him to process and hold information is just through sheer memorization, not this, like, actual, like, like, like active understanding.

[A]

Yeah. And I. I think that is what happens. And it's a. It's a major factor in why he's good at the things he's doing. Because he's very fast on his feet. He's very mentally fast on his feet. Right. But he's not a Guy who really thinks through the consequences of his actions or cares all that much. His bad coordination and spasms are joined by a tendency to shake his legs and work his mouth constantly. And today, this kid would be diagnosed with ADHD so fucking quickly, Right? Sure. But we had not invented that yet. And so her mom was just told, he's got too much energy. You gotta tire him out. You know, make him run around the yard a bunch. It being the 50s, his parents saw no issue in letting him work that energy out by wandering around town or in the woods on his own. As a three year old, he became obsessed with Native American mythology and began dressing as a stereotypical Indian chief on a daily basis, carrying a real tomahawk wherever he went. Cause again, it was the 50s and that was fine. Little three year old, look at him. He's got a little ax. Isn't that cute? He's just swinging it around, blade razor sharp. You could shave with it. On November 18, 1953, Lee's little brother Joe was born. Later family recollections would remember that Lee was frustrated by the fact that his parents now had less attention to shower on him. And he acted out.

[B]

He's the oldest.

[A]

He's the oldest. Yes.

[B]

Eldest child.

[A]

The oldest child. The eldest boy. The eldest boy. And he acted out.

[B]

Thank you, Sophie.

[A]

Well, no, I think he's the oldest child. Their daughter's the youngest. Yeah. So he's the oldest. That went right over your head. It's fine, it's fine, it's fine. Okay. He acted out. Tearing down curtains and causing other messes to get her attention. Which Totty handled by convincing Lee to play with his younger brother. In time, he became as devoted to Joe as his mom had been to him. And he told his parents proudly, I've got me a playmate for the rest of my life. That is again foreshadowing.

[B]

Aw, so sweet.

[A]

Yeah, sweet. The Attwaters moved around a lot during Lee's early childhood. His father had studied to become a lawyer, but quit to work as an insurance adjuster. And his change in ambitions was followed by moving first from Georgia to Charleston, and then from Charleston, finally to Aiken, South Carolina. Now, the year after they moved to South Carolina, their senator, Strom Thurmond, would become famous for launching the longest continuous filibuster.

[B]

This fucking guy.

[A]

This fucking guy. Oh, Strahm's a big part of this story. Garrison, you're not ready for how involved in all this Strahm fucking Thurmond is. That's so much which is like, if you don't know anything, if someone's like, hey, who do you think Strom Thurmond was? If they just tell you he was a sinner, he'd be like, well, I bet he was a racist one.

[B]

He's the perfect name for who he is.

[A]

That's. That's the racist guy name. That's ontological or a determination, whatever the fuck. What is it? Nominative determinism, Right? Yeah, that's it. That's it. His name made him a racist. That's what I'm blaming on it, not his inherent characteristics. So he became famous for launching the longest continuous filibuster in the history of the United States from 8:54pm at that.

[B]

Point until our hero, Cory Booker.

[A]

Did. Cory, beat it. One sec. I gotta check this out.

[B]

This is in the news this year. We talked about this.

[A]

Yeah. So up until Cory Booker, Strom Thurmond was the longest continuous filibuster in the history of the United States. 24 hours and 18 minutes. Strom held forth a nonstop tirade against what he saw as the most evil piece of legislation in his lifetime, the Civil Rights Act. That is what he is trying to stop. Thurmond said during his filibuster. I'm convinced that this is bad. Proposed legislation which never should have been introduced, which never should have been approved by the Senate. I urge every member of this body to consider this bill most carefully. I hope the Senate will see fit to kill it now. That's the most polite thing Strom Thurmond's gonna say about civil rights in this period of time. Thurmond had previously been governor of South Carolina and had run as a presidential candidate for the Dixiecrats, which was, you know, the Southern Democrats. We'll talk about what the Dixiecrats are in a second in 1948. And when he wasn't up before Congress, his language about these matters was often a lot less polite. An article in WNYC Studios. The takeaway summarizes, quote, almost a decade before Thurmond's filibuster, Southern state separatist leaders had revolted in opposition to President Harry Truman's civil rights platform in 1948. Democrats dubbed themselves Dixiecrats and spoke about taking back the country that was being turned into an unrecognizable dictatorship. And here's Thurmond. The Civil Rights act simply means it's another. Means that it's another effort on the part of this president to dominate the country by force and to put into effect these uncalled for and the damnable proposals he has recommended under the guise of so called civil rights. And I tell you, the American people for one side to the other had better wake up and oppose such a program. And if they don't, the next thing will be a totalitarian state in these United States. There's not enough troops in the army to force the southern people to break down segregation and admit the inward race into our theaters, our swimming pools, into our homes and into our churches. Thurman said, and he is a hard R every time. Yeah, we should. Boy, maybe the. But we should have sent out the B49s to carpet bombing.

[B]

This is like one of like the last like gasps of the Southern Democrats before like the, you know, the switch over apart the Social Democrats, like the progressive wing, which gained a lot of success under fdr, was able to like exert more, more influence over the whole party. And the Southern Democrats kind of like fizzled throughout the 50s. Then.

[A]

Well, and they switched over. Thurmond is going to become a Republican, right? A lot of these Southern Democrats become Republicans. That's actually part of the story that we're gonna be telling this week. So Strom Thurmond is their senator when they move to Aiken, South Carolina. And I bring that up not just because he's the senator in their state. Cause that Lee might not have known much about this. They move in down. They're like three doors down from Strom Thurmond. He is their next door neighbor. Right?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Lee Atwater meets him for the first time on Halloween 1956. The year before that, filibuster.

[B]

Fucking screenwriters on the nose. Chill out guys.

[A]

I know, I know. It's amazing. He later recalled, he came out and gave me a Snickers candy bar. That was the best thing I got that year. So I liked Senator Thurmond, but I didn't know anything about politics.

[B]

It's fucking smart.

[A]

Give out the full size candy bars. Look, he's a racist. But full sized candy bars for Halloween? Who's to say if he's bad?

[B]

Snickers satisfies.

[A]

We are. Wow. We are Speaking of things that satisfy.

[B]

The good job so far.

[A]

Satisfying things. Yeah, that's right. Good work. Here's ads.

[C]

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Okay, if you thought season one of Sniffy's Cruisin Confessions was spicy, buckle up. Season two is here and Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso are taking things deeper. They're tackling trending topics, offering practical advice, and having hilarious and heartfelt conversations with a range of queer celebs and sexperts who know their stuff. This season they're also hitting the road. Literally. From NYC to rural cruising scenes to overseas hookups, no stone is left unturned. And let's be real, 2025 hasn't exactly been a breeze. So Gabe and Chris are doing the work, keeping the community informed with chats on prep, harm reduction and how to cruise smart in a wild political climate. Oh, and this year they want to hear your stories. Yep, they've got a new call in segment where they'll react to your wildest cruising confessions on air. No pressure. So if you're ready for round two, just push play Sniffy's Cruising Confession, sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.

[E]

This episode is brought to you by Hendrix Gym. This is Robert Lamb from Stuff to Blow youw Mind. Here at Stuff to Blow youw Mind, we celebrate curiosity. And that's why I want to take a minute to talk about Hendrix gin, the refreshingly curious choice for marvelous summer cocktails. Whether you're mixing up a Hendrix Cucumber lemonade with Hendrix Gin original or trying out one of their limited releases from the Cabinet of Curiosities, opening a bottle of Hendrix Gin is even more than the start of a refreshing cocktail. It's about opening yourself up to the extraordinary, the unusual. So pick up Hendrix, Oseum Gran Cabaret or Flora Adora to try these fleeting expressions before they're gone. Embrace your curiosity. Hendrix is the refreshingly curious choice for marvelous summer cocktails. To learn more about Hendrix and to find more refreshing cocktail recipes, visit hendrixgen.com us Drink responsibly. Hendrix Gin, 44% alcohol by volume 2025, imported by William Grant & Sons Incorporated, New York, NY.

[A]

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[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

The hard r. Every time. Every time. Like also when he was in his 20s, he impregnates a 15 year and has an interracial kid. So he is constantly, as he's preaching racism, preaching against his own illegitimate child that he raped a child to have. Strom Thurmond, that's really bad. Fun guy. Well, maybe we'll cover him one of these days. Really glad he's dead. Yeah, he lived way too fucking long. That's the thing. This motherfucker lived forever.

[B]

This, like A few days ago, like, James Dobson died at like 90 something. It's like, are we going to celebrate this? No, not really. Because you're like, they're all fucking immortal.

[A]

Yeah, I'm glad he's dead.

[B]

They got the death.

[A]

Everything he wanted to do.

[B]

Dobson's one of the most successful political actors of the past 50 years. He won. I almost feel bad sharing memes because it's not good.

[A]

And that's what I'll tell you about this. Lee Atwater's tactics win. He doesn't personally get to win. So there's a little bit of satisfaction in this, a little solace from that. A little solace. A quantum of solace to steal from the James Bond book books. So obviously being down the street from Strom Thurmond doesn't make you a bastard. But Lee's gonna go on to have a strong relationship with him throughout his life. And while at this point his parents are Republicans and Thurmond was a Democrat, Strom is going to change his political affiliation in the not too distant future as it becomes clear that the Republican Party is now the party of segregation. Just a few weeks before that fateful Halloween happened, where he gets the full size Snickers bar, something else would happen that was a lot less pleasant and would influence young Lee's future life. Even more than Strom Thurman, this is maybe the definitive moment of his life. On the afternoon of October 5th, Toddy decides to cook a batch of donuts. Her husband's coming home from work, but he's like late to dinner and she's trying to pass the time, so she's like, why don't we make a batch of donuts? You know, Leah's in watching tv. Brother Joe was kind of toddling around. He's like three. She's struggling with a migraine, so she's like, she's not paying as much attention as she'd normally pay to the task. And this becomes a problem because cooking donuts, at least at that point, the only real way to do it is you're putting a deep fat fryer on top of the stove and you're filling it with oil. So you've got this huge thing filled with oil. Now again, Lee, who's six, is watching tv and three year old Joe toddles into the kitchen.

[B]

No.

[A]

And gets up on top of a trash can and starts like fiddling with the fryer and she tells him to get down and he trips and the trash can falls and he pulls the fryer on top of himself and in an instant, this three year old boy is coated head to toe in boil. Now, this is an instantly fatal injury in that the instant it happens, he's dead. But he doesn't die. Instead, it's just. There's no treating this today. You couldn't fix this. He has immediately 90°, like 30° burns over 90% of his body. This could not be fixed today. This is simply an unsurvivable accident. And Lee runs into the room to see the skin melting off of his baby brother, who is screeching. His mom is screaming. Their dad comes home right after this, starts panicking and throwing rice on the ground at the kid. Just. I don't think he knows what to do. Everybody's like, this is. I can't imagine a more traumatic thing. Right. Than watching your little brother melt to death. They get him to the hospital, he dies several hours later, the entire family. I mean, I should. It's like saying the family's traumatized is like, that's not even necessary. Of course they are.

[B]

No matter what your family is like, this is going to be a tragic event. Like, this is.

[A]

That's unthinkable.

[B]

It's really bad.

[A]

Yeah. And the people who knew Lee well would say that he was. This changes him forever.

[B]

He's gonna fuck up a 6 year old.

[A]

My opinion is that I think part of why he is the way he is is that from this point on, he's like the world's chaos. It doesn't matter what I do. It's just all about personal gratification. Like, fuck it, fuck the world. Right. That's just my interpretation. Jane Mayer, the journalist writing for the New Yorker, knew Lee when he was an adult and would write years later. Qu. He said that he heard the sounds of his brother's screams every day of his life. And I have no reason to doubt that Lee Atwater lies about a lot. I have no reason to doubt that. That's really. You probably hear that forever. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's really bad.

[A]

Just the worst thing I can conceive of. Pretty much.

[B]

No, that's gonna. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Jesus. So this is going to be a formative experience for young Lee. And again, I think this jerks him out of what you might call normal life, normal society. Yeah.

[B]

This is gonna make anyone, no matter who you are, just a more broke.

[A]

Yeah. I think it gives him a sense of separation from the rest of humanity. Right. Like he's going to see himself as subject to different rules and as a different kind. And I think this is part of it. I think this just almost plucks him out of the regular world. It's like so disorienting and dissociating, this horror of this. Anyway, that's my opinion. We'll see what you think. The next year, Lee starts first grade and he gravitates towards the performing arts. In 1961, his father is promoted and they move one last time. They'd stayed in the house for a few years because his dad had been like, if we move, it's just hiding from what happened. We should face it. His mom really wanted to get out of the house where she watched her baby boil to death. Yeah, yeah. When they move, though, Lee begs his parents never to make him change schools again. And they don't. He later in life would express that moving around where they did and ending up ultimately in Colombia gave him a good ground level view of the critical political points in their state, which would be crucial in his political future.

[B]

So now he's no longer like next door neighbors with Thurman at this point?

[A]

No, no. But the family have become friends and they have a connection that will last the rest of their lives. Right. Like his parents know how to contact Strahm, like because they were neighbors in.

[B]

More ways than one. The damage is already done.

[A]

The damage is already done. You have to imagine, I mean, Strom Thurman probably like reached out and bought. Brought up a casserole after their son boiled to death or something in the 50s.

[B]

You said this was a few weeks before the Snickers.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

So I guess he like meets Thurman like a few weeks later.

[A]

Honestly, that might have been why Thurman gave them. They may have known it. I mean, cause the family had moved in a while, but that may have been why he got a full size candy bar. Thurman's like, fuck, the least I could do is give this kid a lot of candy. So Lee's classmates and teachers recall him as a bad student. His friend David Yawn noted that he was, quote, unable to stay focused, always switching channels. And John Brady writes in his biography, Lee learned early how to have his way with other kids, not physically, but through other means of manipulation and control. That left him clearly in charge of relationships. Lee became a prankster, sending birthday invitations to all of the girls in class from David Yawn, who was too shy to throw a party even if it was his birthday. It wasn't. So like, okay, there's a lot of fun moments with this kid.

[B]

And so God forbid a kid have a little fun.

[A]

God forbid A child enjoy a.

[B]

Although I can see how these tactics might become useful in politics later down the line.

[A]

Right. And the point that Brady is making is like, he can't have an equal relationship with you. That's kind of why he's always gotta be pulling pranks, is there has to be. He has to know something you don't. He has to have some degree of power. Right. That seems to be almost compulsive for him. Now, that said, he's a lot of fun to be around. He has a lot of friends, and they recall him. He's always fucking around. His pranks can be pretty mean sometimes, but he's always a lot of fun. And depending on the source, he's either described as manipulative or a leader. And I don't think those two things are exclusive.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no.

[A]

He's just always in charge, you know?

[B]

I can't believe this cult leader was also manipulative.

[A]

Right. His friend and future South Carolina governor Carroll Campbell recalled him being good at organizing people. He would get people to go to All Star Pro Wrestling in the sixth grade. And by the way, Atwater is a huge wrestling fan. You know how, like, in 2016 that Rasha articles came out being like, wrestling is how you should understand Donald Trump. Trump thinks about politics in a wrestling way. The first guy to explicitly say US Politics works the way wrestling does and explain it is Lee Atwater in, like, the 70s. He's talking about, like, wrestling is really the way to understand, like, kayfabe and shit is the way to understand how politics works.

[B]

Without him, Trump never would have had that razor palmed to fake the assassination attempt.

[A]

That's right. That's right. He wouldn't have been able to. Garrison, don't feed the blue and ons. God damn it.

[B]

I'm sorry. I'm writing about the assassination conspiracy theories right now, so I couldn't help it.

[A]

Yeah. This is just gonna make it worse. An AR15 would have blown his head off if it struck his ear.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Damn it. That's right. In fifth grade, he got a job selling eggs door to door. Now, as would be the case his entire life, he proved to be an incredible salesman, and he gets promoted rapidly to manager. His mother is frustrated by the fact that he loves selling stuff, but he'll, like, lose the money he makes. He is not interested in having money.

[B]

It's more the process. It's the process that satisfies him.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's like you're, like, outsmarting someone. Like, you're able to, like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. He likes convincing people to buy things. You know, he doesn't so much care about money.

[B]

You're winning someone over, and that can be like, an exhilarating thing to do.

[A]

Yes. And even as an adult, he makes good money, but he's never greedy in the financial sense. He's greedy in the power sense, he's greedy in the influence sense. That's what motivates him more than one.

[B]

Can I make you do this thing?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What will it take for me to get this result?

[A]

Now, his teachers, as you might expect, have profoundly mixed opinions about him. He is obviously very intelligent and they will all say in terms of what he would say during class, he's really smart. He participates in classroom discussions. He's great at those. He just won't do any work, period. So his grades are always shit. Even though he's clearly the smartest kid in most of his classes. One of his English teachers, she signed his yearbook by calling him my first nightmare every morning with an exclamation point.

[B]

That's fun.

[A]

That's fun. That's fun. So in eighth grade, when the class takes a trip to Washington, D.C. his teacher, the teacher who's like their chaperone, is shocked at how being around the nation's political nexus seems to snap him out of this, like, thing where he can't pay attention or focus, right? Like he's instantly. She said he asked better questions than anyone else in the class. He was totally focused the whole time.

[B]

He was excited.

[A]

And they get to take a picture with his old family friend Strom Thurmond, and he's super psyched, you know, it's this. You can see the fucking shadow of Darth Vader behind Anakin moment thing, right?

[B]

Like, oh, no, whenever a kid gets too excited in the Capitol again, you gotta fix that early.

[A]

Look, we can talk about, you know, the ethics of giving kids drugs for, like, adhd, but if you get a kid who's into politics, like, it's just time. You should prescribe them heroin, right? Something to slow him down, you know? Gotta knock em out of the running somehow. No. So, Sophie, it's fine for you as long as it's pure, you know, as long as it's uncut, it's safe.

[B]

No comment.

[A]

No comment. Outside of politics, Lee's other primary interest is music, specifically the music of James Brown. He loves R and he loves black music, right? Like he loves R and B. He listens to James Brown for the first time in his dad's car and he's just that's it for him. He has found his tr. True love in life and this is the thing he is passionate about. Right, the thing, the actual thing he's deeply passionate about. Right. He's passionate about winning in politics. His friends will always say he could have been a Republican or a Democrat. Republican was just easier. Like he's not passionate about conservatism. He likes the process and he loves fucking blues and rock and roll. Right. And he also, he prefers most of the artists he likes and he will befriend and play with because he's in a band most of his life. He'll play with a number of famous blues and R and B artists. He also develops a love for Elvis Presley. And from the time he's a little kid, one of his go to entertaining tricks is to shake his hips and ass like the King or do a slide like James Brown would do. He gets really good at mimicking all of these movements from his favorite musicians and he'll do them as party tricks.

[B]

Yeah, it's putting in inputs to get a certain output which is same thing with selling. Same thing with. Yep, your class clown manipulative hijinks.

[A]

Exactly right. And his parents, you know, this being a kind of blue bloody family, they try to get him interested in a respectable instrument, the piano. But they give up on that pretty quickly and by the time he's an adolescent forward his favorite hobby is playing the guitar. On basically they make him a deal where like, yeah, if you'll take piano classes for three years, we'll buy you a guitar. So he takes piano classes for exactly three years and then never plays piano again. Like as soon as he gets a guitar, that's it for him. On one occasion his friends told a story about they had a sleepover with him and he bets them 50 cents each that he can play the same five notes repeatedly longer than they can stand to listen. And at around 3am they give up and pay him. Right. Like his fingers are bleeding but he just will not stop until they. He loves making wagers. It's not about the money, it's about the winning.

[B]

You know, that's the other thing to watch out for. If any kid really likes making bets and wagers, you gotta stop that quick.

[A]

Yes, Now I was that kind of kid in high school and we did get one of our friends to try to drink an entire gallon of milk and he vomited everywhere. It was very funny. Lee's health issues persist as he becomes a teenager. He's never good at sports to get Girls interested in him. He starts a band and he starts smoking cigarettes at the ripe old age of 12. He is a daily heavy smoker from age 12 on. It's so funny. It was easy to get cigarettes back then.

[B]

A 12 year old in a suit smoking a cigarette. Hell yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Just chain smoking. Lighting one with the other. Yeah. Waking up with his hand shaking if he can't immediately burn a couple of Camels before he gets out of bed.

[B]

Do you know what his cigarette was?

[A]

No, actually, I don't. I'm gonna guess. Pall Mall biographers need to.

[B]

We need to get better at making sure we know which cigarette a person smokes. I think it tells you a lot about a person.

[A]

Vonnegut was a Pall Mall man, you know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And obviously all the hip kids today smoke American spirits, but it matters. What like brand you're smoking, right? Like you know, the color. Yeah, yeah. Some people like that green bullshit. I'm more into my. Into the grays, you know. Okay. Oh, you're on the street. I don't smoke cigarettes. I just always keep a pack of cigarettes on me in my jacket.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

It's always useful. You never know who's going to need a cigarette. Do you need a cigarette? If so, why not take it while listening to ads? Jesus Christ.

[C]

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[A]

Okay, if you thought season one of Sniffy's Cruising Confessions was spicy, buckle up. Season two is here and Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson Rosso are taking things deeper. They're tackling trending topics, offering practical advice, and having hilarious and heartfelt conversations with a range of queer celebs and sexperts who know their stuff. This season they're also hitting the road. Literally. From NYC to rural cruising scenes to overseas hookups, no stone is left unturned. And let's be real, 2025 hasn't exactly been a breeze. So Gabe and Chris are doing the work, keeping the community informed with chats on prep, harm reduction and how to cruise smart in a wild political climate. Oh, and this year they want to hear your stories. Yep, they've got a new call in segment where they'll react to your wildest cruising confessions on air. No pressure. So if you're ready for round two, just push play Sniffy's Cruisin Confession. Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.

[E]

This episode is brought to you by Hendrix Ginn. This is Robert Lamb from Stuff to Blow youw Mind. Here at Stuff to Blow youw Mind, we celebrate curiosity. And that's why I want to take a minute to talk about Hendrix gin, the refreshingly curious choice for marvelous summer cocktails. Whether you're mixing up a Hendrix Cucumber Lemonade with Hendrix Gin Original or trying out one of their limited releases from the Cabinet of Curiosities, opening a bottle of Hendrik's Gin is even more than the start of a refreshing cocktail. It's about opening yourself up to the extraordinary, the unusual. So pick up Hendrix Oseum Gran Cabaret, or Flora Adora to try these fleeting expressions before they're gone. Embrace your curiosity. Hendrix is the refreshingly curious choice for marvelous summer cocktails. To learn more about Hendrix and to find more refreshing cocktail recipes, visit hendricksgen.com US drink responsibly Hendrix Gin 44% alcohol by volume 2025 imported by William Grant & Sons Incorporated, New York, New York.

[A]

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[C]

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Whoa, this thing moves.

[D]

Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech [e-mail] Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.

[A]

We're back I hope you've all had a delicious cigarette, a delightful cigarette. Apologies to anyone who just quit smoking and is finding themselves triggered. I don't have an issue with cigarettes. I just like to tempt people into smoking them. It's good for you. Try it. Garrison, are you still smoking? Are you having enough cigarettes in your diet?

[B]

I smoke aesthetically to complete an outfit. Of course, it's not like a. I'm not like a smoker. What?

[A]

Don't.

[B]

Don't.

[A]

Cigarettes. Don't smoke cigarettes. Thank you.

[B]

I mean, it's. Again, it's. It's only for the outfit.

[A]

Sophie, if someone shoots at you, smoke a cigarette. That's what they're for.

[B]

They're great at me in a while.

[A]

That.

[B]

That's the thing.

[A]

I know. Then you can't get cigarettes. You gotta go find someone to shoot at you so you can get a smokehead. Go to a Waffle House. You'll get shot at eventually.

[B]

I'll stand outside the. The Manhattan Hilton.

[A]

Yeah, there you go. So his peers recall him being very awkward around women and falling back on his first talent, lying to try and convince them that he knew what sex was and that he was totally dating girls, right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. This is really believable.

[A]

He's just bullshitting about it at first. But he does. He figures it out at a pretty young age. He has his first serious girlfriend in ninth grade. John Brady writes, quote, at school dances, he would get on stage and dance around, playing air guitar, mugging with his blues face, upstaging acts, pre dance contests in the area, right in front of the stage. Afterward, he would apologize to Debbie, his girlfriend, for behavior that must have struck her as being compulsive. I know I acted badly, he would say on the phone the next day, I hope you'll still go out with me.

[B]

Hmm.

[A]

And she did for a while. But she starts being like, I don't know. This is a little much for me. And Leah is eventually like, what's wrong here? And she explains, like, you know, girls like it when a guy is, like, honest and open and. And she could tell that they really like her. And I can't tell what you think. Like, you're just such a liar. I can't tell if you like me or what you're doing here. She tells him, I'm just tired of being the second half of the show. I feel like I've got to be part of a stunt routine. I think that tells you a lot about the kind of kid he is. He can't honestly connect with people Very easily. They've gotta be a part of the show for him. That's kind of the only way he's able to have a relationship with someone. Yeah. Almost by turning it into a performance. And.

[B]

Yeah, I can oddly relate to that in some ways. And it's. Yeah, no, I kind of understand that disconnection.

[A]

I relate to a lot about him because he is a class clown, and so was I. And so are, like, a lot of people who wind up in entertainment. And we all have that piece of us that I think other people aren't missing. That makes sense. That makes you want to perform. I think there's fundamentally a difference between people who become performers and people who don't. And Lee Atwater is a performer. Right.

[B]

And the important thing is that they stay in wrestling or entertainment. Whenever they switch over to politics, that's where it gets bad.

[A]

It's awful. It's the worst every time. Yeah. Yeah. And Lee's that kind of figure. Right. Where he. He would probably have preferred to be a professional musician. He might have been able to make it happen. He's pretty good. And he is in a band most of his life. He actually is nominated for a Grammy.

[B]

What the fuck? He's okay.

[A]

And I think it's one of those things where he could have been really good if he'd had the courage to commit, but it's just too much of a long shot for him. And politics. There's no risk of failure. He can tell. Right. Cause he's just got the brain for it.

[B]

Man, that sucks.

[A]

I'm getting ahead of myself here. So Debbie gets cracked. I just want to show Garrison a photo of. Of Lee Atwater with James Brown.

[B]

Oh, I gotta cause it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I thoroughly enjoyed it because he looks like Topher Grace from. In this photo. He looks like Topher Grace when he was on that 70s show. He does look a lot like Topher Grace.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Look at this dork.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

What a meeting of the hairs.

[B]

I want James Urbaniak to play him in a movie.

[A]

James Urbaniak could definitely play Lee.

[B]

I'm calling him.

[A]

He'd have to do a Southern accent. Cause. Oh, but you'll hear Lee in a little bit here.

[B]

He can do it.

[A]

He could do it. Oh, yeah.

[B]

That would be good casting.

[A]

Yeah. It's interesting to me that Debbie is the first person to realize what Lee Atwater is and call him out while they're in, like, ninth grade. Cause this is going to be a devastatingly accurate description of the man until the last chapter of his life. And Debbie summarized her opinion on him this way. There were sides of Lee that I certainly adored, but the opportunist in him, the person seeking popularity in a stage, would almost always overrule the nice guy. The more genuine part of him. I don't think he could stop it. Right. Yeah. And that's what you get from people who knew him and were appropriately critical of him, but cared about him. Where there's almost this. I don't know how much I feel like he was partly out of control of himself. Not that that, like, mitigates his culpability in the evil he does, but like, he almost can't stop himself from being. From being a false. Like he can't be the real version of himself. He has to play a role. Right. And maybe that's some protective thing. Maybe it's. I don't know fully what's going on, but this is something you'll get expressed that like, he's almost incapable of being himself. He has to put on an act. In interviews about his own early life, Lee would claim to have been a voracious reader as a kid, going through two or three books a week while in grade school. And he always makes this claim in the context of being. Explaining why his grades were shitty. Right. Because he has to. Like, he always acknowledges, I did terribly in school, but I was really, like, I was self educated. Right. He was an autodidact. And so he would always say the only reason he got bad grades is he thought getting good grades was uncool and that refusing to do well in class when you're smart enough to do well in class is cool. He would say, the only thing that would keep me from reading a book was if it was assigned reading. And so it's interesting to me, that's very important to him, the fact that, you know, he got bad grades because he chose to, but he was really smart, his mother later recalled. He decided that since he wasn't the smartest in the room, he would be the dumbest. He had to be different. And I don't think she's fully accurate there. And I don't think Lee is being fully honest here. I think Lee is. He's definitely smart. He's definitely capable of doing better in school than he did. He chose to fuck up in school. But I also think he's deeply insecure because of these issues he has reading as a kid. He's never as well read or educated as he wants to be. And as his charisma and his gift of gab lets him mimic being right. He's able to pretend to have the depth of education that he doesn't have, and he doesn't. I don't think he actually read two or three books a week during this period of time. Like, that's what he claims. But he's gonna make this claim again years later when he's starting to make a name for himself as a Republican Party campaign strategist. And I want to quote from an article for the New York Times by Maureen Dowd writing about this period of time and this is later in life, but I think it's relevant to the claim he makes while he's in grade school. Quote, as a Reagan aide, he bragged that he read three books a week, everything from Dostoevsky to Alvin Toffler, and then hired an aide named James Pinkerton to read the books and give him summaries while he jogged on the treadmill at the White House gym.

[B]

It was a good joke about all.

[A]

The Ivy League reporters who wrote about his prodigious reading habits. And the lofty quotes also impressed young women. And he really did read the Great Gatsby. Pinkerton recalls fondly.

[B]

So that's good.

[A]

I think he's doing that. A version of that in Highest because He's basically having ChatGPT summarize books for you. That's what he'd be doing. And he gets.

[B]

This is what he'd be doing now. Yeah.

[A]

And he memorizes a couple of quotes so that he can drop a quote from the book and seem like he knows what he's talking about.

[B]

This is the same thing he was doing as a kid. Right. As a little kid and to impress adults. This is even connected to his urge to perform. It's the deception, the performance is all that matters, that overrides any actual substance behind this, because no one can actually truly understand the substance unless you let them in. And if you're always putting on this character, then no one's gonna get let in close enough to understand that.

[A]

Right. Right. And I think it also, he could do better in school than he does, but not as much better as, again, like his mom said, he wouldn't have been the best. He wasn't that smart. And. And so he's. He has to kind of. He both said, talking about how purposefully he fucked up school and about how much he read and how smart he really was. Those are both, like, coping mechanisms to protect his ego to an extent. His grades are bad enough that in 10th grade, his parents send him away to A military school. He goes to Fork Union Military School starting in the fall of 1966. And this is the kind of like all the kids, there are kids who are misbehaving and not doing well in class. And you have to think about this academy as one big sizzling pot of adhd, right? Every kid there could, like, be swallowing Ritalin by the fucking pound. John Brady talks to several of his classmates, one of whom later claimed he was a manipulator. He could get you to agree to anything. And this is a sentiment basically everyone who knew him during this period of time would agree with. One of his hobbies is collecting record albums. And early on at Fork Union, he started convincing his other classmates there was this record club that if you got someone else to join, they'd send you a free album. And so he'd do this to get a bunch of free albums. And then he bribed a friend. He gave him a bunch of albums if he would jump out of their window two floors up, if he'd compete with them. And jumping out of their window two floors up and then sneaking back in without being caught. And so Lee does it. First he jumps out and he sneaks back in and he's fine. And then when his roommate jumps out, Lee blocks the door to their room with a locker to ensure that his friend gets caught and loses the bet. Like, that's the kind of shit he's bullying. He's such a little psycho. He starts drinking. I mean, it's kind of funny, but, like, it's a little objectively shitty. Yes, he starts drinking at age 15 when he finds a store that doesn't check IDs and sells Pabst Blue Ribbon. That is his child beard. In his biography of Lee, John Brady, ahead of the times. Ahead of his times. He grew a little pencil mustache too. John Brady describes the parties he went to with his bunkmates in incredible terms. In the car, he changed back into civvies and chugged beers and long extended gulps like a sword swallower. He could consume a six pack in 10 miles, tossing cans out the car window, then arriving at a rock or soul dance, thoroughly blitzed on the dance floor. He did James Brown splits in piro. He picked up girls who were impressed at first by his wildness and wit, but who slowly froze on the unbearable ride home.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Fun, kid.

[B]

I like that they're measuring drinking by the mile.

[A]

By the mile. That's how you know you're really doing some underage drinking.

[B]

A six pack every 10 miles is really sick.

[A]

Just Hurling the empty beers out the window. Fuck it. Who's gonna stop us? Not a seatbelt in sight. The cops are just as drunk as you. It was we used to be a proper country garrison. Alas, his grades.

[B]

Yeah, alas. Until people like this came around.

[A]

Until people like this came around and ruined it. That's right. His grades improve a little at Fork Union. And so in his second semester there, he starts begging his parents. He has this very methodical plan to convince his parents to let him go back to high school. He wants to go to JC Flora High, which is where several of his friends had gone and is like a college campus in size and organization more than like a traditional high school. Yeah, it's a public school and it's a big one. It sounds kind of like where my high school, where it's like a college sized campus. His parents agree. And yeah, he's able to go back to public school. And as soon as he is, Lee gets back to his old tricks. Per Jane Mayer's article in the New Yorker, the first presidential campaign the Natwater managed was a bid to get a friend of his elected as student body president. Against the friend's wishes, he created a list of false accomplishments and devised a fake rating system that ranked his friend first. The poll was called Big Comedy Ratings, and it was distributed as a flyer listing the funniest boys and girls in school. To continue with Mayer's quote, he plastered the school with posters declaring his friend's platform of false promises of free beer on tap in the cafeteria, free dates, free girls. The campaign took a darker turn when Atwater's sidekick stomped on the bare feet of a hippie like student until his feet bled profusely. Afterward, the group threatened to do the same to younger students unless they voted for Atwater's cannon. Atwater recalls thinking that he privately revelled in the tactics and was proud he could participate in intimidating his fellow students. But publicly he feigned concern. Or as he writes, I was acting like Eddie Haskell, saying, oh my gosh, young people, you could be next. His candidate won an upset victory, but the school declared it void owing to a technicality. I learned a lot, he writes. I learned how to organize and I learned how to polarize. Wow. Oh, lot there.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

That's horrifying.

[A]

That's nuts. Yeah, that's so fucking awful. I learned how to organize and I learned to polarize. They're beating kids because he's fucking. Yeah, like, and he's like. And I reveled in it. Getting this mob to beat yeah.

[C]

What a cool guy.

[A]

Uh. Oh, Jesus Christ. Yeah, this kid's gotta be evil. That's. That's wild, right? I don't. It's something else. Like that is sinister as fuck.

[B]

That also sounds like a great 80s film.

[A]

It does. So much of his childhood would have been like an 80s or early 90s movie.

[B]

Yeah, that would be such a good person running for class president movie.

[A]

If he had just written. If he'd just become like John Hughes, you know, we could have been saved a lot of horror as a species. If only. If only.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But you know who won't be saved from the horrors, Garrison? Us. The people who listen to your podcasting on it could happen here or follow you on social media. You got anything you want to plug?

[B]

I mean, no, just. It could happen here. Our weekly news show, Executive Disorder, where we talk about the news every week.

[A]

The horrors for what?

[B]

Like how bad things is 30, 30, 35 weeks now?

[A]

Jesus. Yeah, something like that. You changed your handle on the social medias, didn't you?

[B]

Yes, yes, I changed my handle for fun to by shonen type on all social media platforms. I mean, I'm still trying to use Blue sky, but it's a bummer. Hashtag welcome to the resistance.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

It's.

[B]

All of them are.

[A]

It's a bummer and then it's a fascist bummer. There's, you know. Yeah, both are bad. There's nothing good on the Internet trying.

[B]

To be on the list, but, you know, occasionally. Occasionally.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we'll be back with part two. Yeah. Yeah, perhaps.

[B]

Oh, this guy didn't just end running for class president.

[A]

No, no, he did not drop dead after organizing and polarizing school annulled.

[B]

See, I thought that was. That's a great ending.

[A]

No, we'll hit you with part two, but first we're going to roll out for the day. But you can everybody please go to defense fund PDX donor box. Type that into Google Defense fund PDX donor box and donate to the Portland defense fund to help people who have literally no one else looking out for them get bailed out and, you know, get some help. Help not falling into a black hole if they get charged with a fucking misdemeanor. Generally, yeah, please help and go to hell. I love you. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

[C]

Wherever you get your podcast.

[A]

Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behindthebastards.

[C]

This podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video phone or chat. Here's BetterHelp head of clinical operations Hesiu Jo discussing who can benefit from therapy I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're like having panic attacks every day. But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships, that could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody. Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp.com today. That's betterhelp.com this Labor Day say goodbye to spills, stains and overpriced furniture with washablesofas.com featuring Annabe, the only machine washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget friendly pricing. Sofas start at just 69 making it the perfect time to upgrade your space. Anibe's pet friendly, stain resistant and interchangeable slipcovers are made with high performance fabric built for real life. You'll love the cloud like comfort of hypoallergenic high resilience foam that never needs fluffing and a durable steel frame that stands the test of time with modular pieces you can rearrange anytime. It's a sofa that adapts to your life. Now through Labor Day. Get up to 60% off site [e-mail] Every order comes with a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping, no restocking fees. Every penny back. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[A]

Ugh. Come on.

[C]

Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

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[A]

Whoa, this thing moves.

[D]

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[C]

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[A]

This is an I Heart podcast.