← Behind the Bastards
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- [00:02]
A
Call Zone Media. Oh, I didn't see you there. Welcome to behind the Bastards. You've stepped into our living room podcast house. I don't know. It's a podcast about bad people. I struggle through the introduction every week, but then we get to the terrible person, one of the worst people in all of history that we're talking about, and everybody has a good time learning about things that make them feel bad because we're all damaged people. Speaking of. Ooh, shit, that's a bad way to. Speaking of talented podcast hosts. Thank you. My guest this week, Molly Conger. Molly, welcome to the show. You've got a podcast.
- [00:45]
B
Thrilled to be here. Yes. I also have a podcast about guys who suck minor, weirder and littler. It's weird little guys.
- [00:54]
A
Yes. Yes. There's a strict height requirement, much like the Prussian heavy infantry, in order to be on your podcast, but in the reverse way. Anyway, Molly, how do you feel about soccer? Football, as it's called by most of the people who like it.
- [01:12]
B
So I don't know anything about it, but I've been watching the World cup with my husband and I love hollering at the tv.
- [01:18]
A
Oh, good, good, good. I feel like this is kind of. This happens periodically where, like, you know, the World Cups in the United States. So a lot of Americans who normally aren't so much in to what the west, to football, we'll call it football, suddenly find themselves intrigued by it for like the first time or the first time in a while. And right now, the whole freedom loving world is captured by a new and often performative love of the sport. And as I think most people are aware, the organization that governs how football or soccer works is FIFA. And they are more corrupt than a barrel full of Iraqi generals marinated in oil. Marinated in the oil. Like, huh?
- [01:59]
B
Is it Gianni Infantino? Are we doing. Are you doing Johnny baby?
- [02:03]
A
Much worse, Much worse, much worse, much worse. Because if you're not aware, if you
- [02:09]
B
were that excited about that, because he's
- [02:12]
A
evil, we will, we will, we will have to cover him at some point. But like, FIFA is so corrupt that if you Google FIFA corruption scandals, you have to specify the year in order to get any kind of useful result because there's just way too many. Otherwise, like, you're just gonna get like chronological news stories from the latest one. And any infamously corrupt and abusive institution is only as good as its most corrupt and sadistically violent team managers. And in the case of professional soccer, the most abusive manager slash team owner in the history of the sport. Do you want to have a guess to who's the most abusive team owner in the history of football?
- [02:55]
B
I couldn't even begin to guess, but as I've been watching the World Cup, I have noticed that whenever they cut to the sidelines, it's the most sinister looking man you've ever seen in your fucking life, Molly.
- [03:06]
A
And that's how it is now. Now I'll give you one hint, Molly. One hint. The character we're talking about today is the son of a widely beloved romance novelist, although someone who's better known for their other work.
- [03:20]
B
Is it one of the Hussein sons?
- [03:22]
A
It's Uday Hussein. That's right. That's right. He owned a soccer team. He was like the manager of a FIFA team. He was a big deal in the world of soccer for a while and for a long time, actually.
- [03:36]
B
And I imagine he treated the players fairly and with respect.
- [03:40]
A
That's right. This is a story about a man who treated his players respectfully and didn't, for example, keep a torture dungeon underneath the team workout area for members of the team.
- [03:51]
B
Highly motivational, controversial tactic.
- [03:54]
A
That's right. That's right. I've told Sophie we want to try something like that for the network, but she says, apparently it's hard to expense torture dungeons anymore unless you're Amazon.
- [04:03]
B
Yeah, I think I could bring in twice as many downloads if I was recording above a torture dungeon.
- [04:09]
A
If there was a torture dungeon. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [04:22]
B
There was no anything inside those eyes.
- [04:26]
A
They turned black. It scared the hell out of me. Evil.
- [04:32]
B
Wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder take place by Krievac and Dipo.
- [04:38]
A
Anthony depipo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said, I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grave. Listen to the Devil's quarry in the bone Valley. Feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, yeah, you ready to talk about Uday Hussein, soccer star? Kind of.
- [05:14]
B
I mean, I think if you ask me, like, the traits of Uday Hussein, like, what was. What was he best known for? How would you describe Uday Hussein? Football manager. Top. Top of the list.
- [05:23]
A
Football manager? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of, yeah. Manager, sort of. It. Team owner. It's a little. It's hard to translate his job directly, but he basically, he owns, like, the most prestigious team in Iraq, and he's also the head of, like, their. Their. Their football. Like the national, like, football committee and the head of their, like, Olympic football team. Right.
- [05:40]
B
Because of his great running at football,
- [05:42]
A
because of his great skill in football. Of course, Uday Hussein wouldn't get the job for any other reason at the age of 20. Anyway, we're going to go give him a bit of a biography. This is. These are not technically our Uday episodes. I think I still might do dedicated Uday episodes. There's a lot this guy up to in his life and it's all pretty awful but pretty entertaining. But we're going to stick mostly to football in this one because there's that much like his football career is that significant. Born in Kark, Baghdad, on either June 18th or March 9th of 1964. And you again, one of the best ways to tell if this is going to be a great episode of behind the Bastards. Are there multiple equally likely birthdays for the bastard? Or, like, do we have any idea when they were really born?
- [06:27]
B
This many children? Oh, he had at least five children.
- [06:29]
A
At least. At least. These are the details, you know, that make things fun. Uday came into this world the son of a father who was a man of modest means. You know, Saddam Hussein was not born wealthy. He came from a scrappy backwater town. And he was a scrappy backwater kid who fought every hour of his life to become a powerful and influential man in the new Iraq that he also helped to create. Saddam was a Baath Party activist and he fought the party seize power three years before Uday's birth. So by the time Uday comes into the world, the Future of the Ba'ath Party in Iraq is uncertain. Right. They had just taken power. They don't have things like super solidified. It's very possible there's going to be a counterweave that like, pushes them out because they're not necessarily doing the best job. Right. So it's at this point by no means guaranteed that Saddam's going to ever be more than like a mid level kind of politico thug. You know, this is. He could have just been just yet another pretty forgettable guy in the history of Iraqi politics. And indeed, shortly after Uday was born, Saddam miscalculated and put his support behind a faction in the party that lost out in a major power struggle. And Saddam was imprisoned for two years, but escaped. And being Saddam Hussein, he goes on the run. And so, like in some of Uday's earliest years, his dad is like, living outside of the law and, and having like, infrequent communication with his family. I Think they're moving sometimes to try to, like, meet up with him. And by the time Uday is like three years old, Saddam has kind of gotten himself out of the doghouse. He scraped back enough power to make, like, a play for. For a better position for himself, and he succeeds. There's like a, you know, another coup, basically, in Iraq. And the new power structure that Saddam helps bring into being sees Iraq run by a president named Al Baker, who is a kind of in the mold that happens in these situations. A sick and elderly man that people sometimes compare to Weimar Germany's Paul Hindenburg. Like, after this, this revel or this, this coup, Saddam is the secondary guy to this sick old dude that more people like. And he's kind of running things from the background, you know, like, that's what's happening when uday is like 4, 5, 6 years old. Right. In those years. So Saddam is basically running Iraq at that point in Uday's life, but he's not officially in charge. Does that make sense?
- [08:51]
B
I guess. It's been so long since you're Saddam Hussein episode that was like, early in the show. Right. You did Saddam early on.
- [08:57]
A
Almost 10 years ago. Almost 10 years ago. I know we're kind of yada because this isn't Saddam episode, so I know we're kind of yada yada.
- [09:03]
B
Yeah, I know. I'm trying to think because I guess that's, you know, most of what I know about Saddam Hussein.
- [09:08]
A
Yeah.
- [09:09]
B
It just never occurred to me that his children were young during his rise to power, like when he was a young, like, aspiring educator.
- [09:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, just Uday, really. I don't think Koussay's come into the picture at this point, but yeah, he
- [09:23]
B
was there for the come up.
- [09:24]
A
Yes. Uday is probably his first memories are kind of when his dad is like, vice president and just sort of coming into power. Tribunal writer George Woodward describes Uday being raised, quote, from the age of five, like a crown prince. So from about his earliest memory, his dad is the guy who's running everything, and he's expected to follow in his dad's footsteps. Right. So he doesn't really have much in the way of a life before that. Although you have to imagine the kind of chaotic and dangerous very earliest years of his life probably had some impact on him. The fact that his dad's on the run and stuff like that likely percolated through to some extent, I expect.
- [10:02]
B
I don't know. By the time you're five, you're a little princess.
- [10:05]
A
Right? Right. Maybe it doesn't do all that much. Now, if you lived through the Gulf War and then the Iraq War years, as I think all three of us on the show did, you've encountered a lot of propaganda about Saddam Hussein and his Iraq. Now, much of that has been proven to be nonsense, as we'll discuss in these episodes. There's a lot of bullshit about Saddam Hussein just because it made a good story. And especially, like, cheap periodicals like the New York Post weren't checking anything. If someone had, like, a lurid story about Saddam Hussein in 2002, you could get it printed in a bunch of places. Nobody was checking on shit as long as some guy who was an Iraqi defector said that this is what happened. People were not doing any kind of due diligence in the journalism world. Right. Especially. But not a lot of them. Right? Yeah. Not in the early 2000s. Now, that doesn't change the fact Saddam Hussein. This is not about doing any revisionism. Saddam was an undeniably brutal dictator. He was a horrible guy. And Uday is going to grow into a horrific, violent man who kills a lot of people. But that doesn't mean every story about them is true. And so part of what you have to do when you're kind of researching an episode like this is try to pick apart, how possible is this crazy claim that I may want to be true, but how likely is that, that it happened? Right.
- [11:19]
B
Did Udy do that, or was it Dr. Evil?
- [11:21]
A
Yeah, right. Cause that sounds more Dr.
- [11:23]
B
Evil.
- [11:24]
A
Yeah.
- [11:25]
B
Like, did he put lasers on the sharks?
- [11:27]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if he had access to those. I think Iraq might have done better if he'd had lasers on for the Sharks. So I found an article in these Football Times by Justin Sherman that gives a pretty representative summary of the common take on Uday's childhood. This is how he's described in a lot of publications. Right. In very similar terms to this. Because this is the. This is the definitely, like, most marketable version of his life story. Almost from birth, Uday Hussein had a curiosity and borderline affinity for violence. As an infant, instead of pushing toy cars, he played with disarmed grenades. By the age of 10, he was already shadowing his father to the torture chamber at Qasr Al Nahaya, nicknamed the palace of the End. Many political enemies were killed here, including the overthrown King Faisal ii. To observe how Saddam dealt with perceived dissidents, by high school, he bragged how he had murdered his teacher for disrespecting him in front of his girlfriend. So that's the. That's the traditional, like, take on Uday from Born to Murder. Right. Like from the time he's a little kid torturing with glass. Just one of these people who is inherently monstrous. And obviously, look at how evil Saddam is. How could he be anything but inherently monstrous? We'll talk a little bit about how accurate I think all of that is here. Woodward's own description attributes Uday's propensity to violence, to, quote, unusual ideas that Saddam had about raising children, but notes that this claim that, like, Uday's violent because his dad had these different beliefs about how you raise kids, that that claim is. Is something Saddam's political opponents circulated after they fled the country. Right.
- [13:00]
B
Cause who's actually raising the child? Is this mothers? Is it nannies?
- [13:05]
A
It's nannies. And mom. His mom is in the picture, but he's also a wealthy kid. So from a pretty early age, he's being watched by a lot of different people. Right. We don't have a ton of context on that, but that's kind of what I've pieced together.
- [13:20]
B
And what kind of parenting philosophies are we talking about? Is that early 20th century German thing where it's illegal to touch your children, you can't kiss them?
- [13:28]
A
It's more. Saddam wanted him to, like, see guys being beaten and tortured up close from a pretty young age to get what it takes to be in it's Game of Thrones kind of shit almost is like, you need to know what it takes to rule this kingdom.
- [13:43]
B
Gotta see your first beheading by six.
- [13:45]
A
Right?
- [13:45]
B
Yeah.
- [13:46]
A
Right. Now, again, how crazy all this actually went and how crazy people talk about it. These are two different things. And there are alternate, less extreme explanations for and less crazy standing descriptions of Uday's childhood that sound very different from the paragraph I just read you. For example, the thing about him playing with disarmed grenades. If you read deeper, that's, like, one specific story of, like, him playing around with, like, a disarmed grenade while they were waiting for, like, the result of some raid, like, or some like. Like, coup kind of related activity that his dad was carrying out. So it was, like, a dangerous night for them. And. And Uday's playing. They've got, like, a disarmed grenade. And, like, maybe that sounds crazy. A disarmed grenade when I was a.
- [14:23]
B
Could be fun.
- [14:25]
A
One of my. Yeah, I remember one of my uncles, when I was a kid, they had, like, a desk toy that was like, a disarmed or fatal. I think it may have just been a training grenade or whatever, but that may have been what Uday had. It's like a training grenade that was never real. Like, it's not clear to me. I don't know. I don't think it's that crazy. Like, he's not playing with disarmed grenades
- [14:42]
B
any weirder than, like, a toy gun.
- [14:45]
A
No, exactly. Exactly. And it's not like those were his only toys. This is, like, one weird occasion. Right, Right.
- [14:51]
B
If instead of blocks, he only had military surplus equipment, that would be weird.
- [14:56]
A
Yeah, that would be weird. But I don't think anyone's really saying that. Yeah. And he definitely, at a certain point, sees his dad's torture dungeons. Right. And it helps his dad. He's gonna be a big fan of torture. It's unclear when that starts. Woodward says it's from age like, 15 on that Saddam lets him participate in torture. That said, I also think it's fairer to describe that as Saddam abused him by making him participate in torture because he's age 15. Yeah.
- [15:24]
B
But also, I feel like exposing a child to that, like, especially, like, during puberty. I don't know, there's something about, like, the cement being wet in your brain at that moment.
- [15:32]
A
It's not gonna do good things to him.
- [15:35]
B
You're gonna become weird, probably.
- [15:37]
A
And you. You get really varying stories as to, like, when did Saddam start exposing him to this stuff? Uday's obituary and the Independent claimed that when Uday was five, Saddam made him attend a family like gathering in a Baghdad public square to watch the hanging of dozens of Iraqi Jews who had been declared spies. The article continues that, quote, saddam boasted that he toughened his boys up by taking them to watch the torture of enemies of the nation and. And the liquidation of traitors.
- [16:05]
B
That's very medieval.
- [16:06]
A
And again, I don't have trouble believing that. That's in line with some other stuff. And it's pretty consistent in stories about them. But it's often described as, like, evidence of Uday's early violent propensity of violence and brutality. Where more of what I'm seeing, and this will make sense with some other stuff we're about to talk about, is that I think Saddam starts exposing to Uday to violence at a very young age. And it, like him up and you can see it change him and damage him. He was not a violent kid. From an early age. He's brutalized by his dad exposing him to this stuff, even if as a
- [16:39]
B
12 year old, he's saying, oh, Daddy, please take me to the public hanging. That's still a child. And it's still your responsibility as the
- [16:46]
A
parent, probably because you make it sound cool. Because he doesn't really know what it is because he's 12.
- [16:51]
B
You know, it's child abuse, I think, to take children to the torture dungeon. I'm gonna stand firm on that one.
- [16:57]
A
Exactly. And it's not described as that often enough. It always, in these stories, comes across as part of. Well, this is a man who was just always, from the earliest days of his childhood, a violence. No, this is a child who was molded and abused into being a violent psychopath. That's kind of important.
- [17:11]
B
You know, it's not like those stories of, like, serial killers where you hear, like, oh, you know, as in middle school, he's sort of dismembering cats. Like, this is not that.
- [17:18]
A
No, this is different than that. Really? And, like, yeah, I don't know. Maybe I don't know enough about Uday's childhood to know was he that guy? But there's reasons to believe he wasn't, right? And I'm inclined to doubt the often repeated, possibly by Uday story that he'd murdered a teacher before he went into high school for disrespectful. He would tell that. Right. Not only does it sound fake, but I've read a book, and it's kind of hard to find, but there's some online copies that is, like, the Saddam Hussein approved version of his life story for Westerners. Like, it was a propaganda thing that he came out. And one of the stories in there is him holding his principal at gunpoint to force him to, like, admit him to school. Because Saddam loved being loved. Lear learning how to read, like, love school. His reading program actually was really good. He had a very effective reading program for Iraq. It was one of the things he was good at.
- [18:06]
B
You gotta hand it to him. The literacy program was good.
- [18:08]
A
It really did. It worked quite well, but. And that's definitely because they held the children, if there's any real evidence. And I think Uday may have told that lie because, like, well, my dad has a story about fucking being violent to his teacher. I need an even more extreme one. That's what I read there. Because I don't have any, like, good reason to believe he actually killed a teacher. No one claims to know who this teacher is or to have seen it directly. There are accounts of Uday doing stuff like this later in life, but I think that just makes people assume, well, if he did that 20 years later, he must have Done that when he was 10. And that's nonsense. Right?
- [18:44]
B
Right. That's personal myth building.
- [18:46]
A
Yeah. I think this is him myth building and copying his dad's myth building, wanting his dad to be think that. And this isn't just me thinking that because it's easier. We have some accounts from some of his teachers because Uday went to really nice schools for most of his education. And the most detailed account we have from one of his teachers comes from a foreign teacher who, like, worked in his cause. Like, these are nicer schools in Iraq. A lot of the teachers are foreigners. Dina Bentley from Yorkshire in the north of England, married a Kurdish man back in the 1970s and wound up working at a private school in Baghdad. When Uday Hussain is a. A pretty. A young kid. Iraq has a long tradition of private schools staffed with foreign teachers for the children of the elite and wealthy. And even in Saddam's area, these people were respected professionals who enjoyed a high degree of protection. Uday is certainly not going to be killing like, a white European teacher. Right. Saddam doesn't want, but if he did,
- [19:39]
B
we would know about it. Like, this didn't happen in 1750. It's 1980 now.
- [19:45]
A
He also had Iraqi teachers, but again, I think someone would have said. Said specifically, like, we would hear something besides, like, he killed a teacher for being rude to his girlfriend. We would have more of that story, I think, if it were real. And again, this just doesn't comport with Dina's time with him when he was very young in 2003. And this is at, like, the height of Iraq war fever. Dina recalled to ABC that time in her life when she was teaching in Iraq and Uday was her student. He would have been 11 years old at this point. And per that article, quote, Saddam Hussein, then second in command, was already a powerful figure at the time. Uday arrived at school with bodyguards, but she recalls a normal who was bright, cheerful, and responsive to discipline. He was always grinning and happy, and as soon as they knew who he was, the other children were a little bit wary. But he certainly wasn't a bully. She said. People would like me to say that he had two heads and was an unbearable pupil. He wasn't asked about Uday's current reputation, she said it must have been around the time of the 1991 Gulf War, when there were stories in the papers. I don't know how true they are about his murderous ways. That did surprise me because he was never aggressive or a problem in class. She said. I had a good relationship with him. He Never tried to pull rank. He certainly never said to me, do you realize who I am? You know, Damn.
- [20:53]
B
So Uday got the pleasure to be in class on his report card.
- [20:56]
A
Right, right, right. It just sounds like a real kid, as opposed to this, like, violent, murderous 11 year old that, like, a lot of news stories want you to believe that, like, this kid is obsessed with death as a child. Naturally.
- [21:08]
B
A lot of what. What I do on my show and I'm writing about these. These men who become terrible. These men who commit these terrible acts, they are not like ontological evil. They were not. They did not emerge from the womb as a monster. It's a human guy who became fucked up over time, sometimes for discernible reason.
- [21:28]
A
Yes, yes. And that's all.
- [21:29]
B
It's very rare for someone to be born monstrous.
- [21:33]
A
Yeah. And again, Uday's gonna do monster. We're gonna be talking all about the nightmarish stuff he does. I'm not at all trying to mitigate it. I just really want to emphasize.
- [21:39]
B
No, I think it actually makes it more frightening. Right. That this was just a human man. It became this way. I don't know. It's more comforting sometimes to write these people off as, oh, sometimes just ontological evil exists in the world. And there he is.
- [21:53]
A
It's easier to believe that than that. Like, yeah, this kid could have been a perfectly nice child at 11, and then four or five years later, because of the shit his dad exposes him to a way scarier person, you know, like, that's just more upsetting.
- [22:06]
B
It's a more complicated and upsetting story.
- [22:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. And again, it's not that there's not fear around this kid then. It's just the fear is clearly not because he's a maniac.
- [22:15]
B
No, the fear is that if I. I upset this child, his dad will kill my family.
- [22:19]
A
Exactly. Exactly. And Dina was like, I'm glad. Like, Saddam never came to parents evening, and I'm glad he didn't. Like, I knew stories about him at the time. Right. I didn't want to meet the guy.
- [22:29]
B
The parents teacher conference would be nerve wracking.
- [22:32]
A
Yeah, you don't want to have that one. And she also stated that her colleagues, her Iraqi colleagues were surprised that she was willing to discipline Uday when he did misbehave. They were too worried of his father to discipline him. This, again, isn't based on him doing something stuff. It's based on Saddam. Right. She told another one other story I find particularly interesting. He was leaping about in class one day. So I took him by a tuft of hair and sat him down. I said, we don't do this. I am teaching, you are learning. Now sit down. Another teacher watching through the classroom window was horrified. She said to me later, do you know who that is? It's Saddam's son. And this anecdote tells us a couple of things. One is that there's enough fear around his family again that most people don't want to discipline Uday and that must have had an effect on him. But Dina does and nothing happens to her, Right? Right. And it's also interesting, Ude's reaction to being chastised by his teacher. You could see, like the crazy version of this kid would have gotten furious at her, embarrassing him, and would have had some plan for revenge her or had her killed. Or Uday gets a haircut. So he has his barber trim off the bit of hair that she'd grabbed him by and he like smiles and points it out, which is like malicious compliance maybe, but that doesn't sound, that doesn't suggest a homicidal mind. That seems like a normal 11 year old boy, you know, a rich kid maybe, but like pretty normal.
- [23:46]
B
She lived. She lived to tell the tale.
- [23:48]
A
She lived to tell the tale, you know. Dina added, he was not a high flyer, but he did his best. He was always smiling. A bit of a clown. Uday picked up a lovely Yorkshire accent for me. He's probably still got it. It was nice because it reminded me of home. So the Yorkshire folks in our audience, if you're wondering how this fucker sounds, is he's torturing soccer players, football players like you. Sorry. That's not your fault. It's not Dina's fault.
- [24:15]
B
That's a lovely.
- [24:15]
A
Tried to teach the poor fucker English. Not poor fucker. That's ridiculous.
- [24:21]
B
That's ridiculous.
- [24:22]
A
Yeah, it's really funny to think of. And I want you all to keep that thought in your mind as we take a little trip down advertiser lane. In the moment, it felt like it was going on forever. I didn't think I was gonna live. I terrified.
- [24:43]
B
There was no anything inside those eyes.
- [24:47]
A
They turned black. It scared the hell out of me. That was your first murder case?
- [24:55]
B
Yes, sir.
- [24:55]
A
Fair to say this was the biggest case of your career.
- [24:57]
B
Yes, sir.
- [24:58]
A
Rape and murder of a 12 year old child. As bad as it gets. I would think so.
- [25:03]
B
Evil. Wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder take place by Crevat and Dipo.
- [25:10]
A
Anthony dipipo showed no signs of remote remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grave. Listen to the Devil's quarry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the Devil's Quarry ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lapa for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. And we're back. That was nice. Oh, I just got an email about a FIFA party in Portland. That sounds awful. I don't think I'm gonna be doing that.
- [26:00]
B
Hey.
- [26:00]
A
Should be rsvp.
- [26:02]
B
Absolutely not.
- [26:04]
A
Yeah. Rsvp. No, thank you. I don't. I don't like them.
- [26:10]
B
Nope.
- [26:11]
A
Molly, Sophie, shall we dive back in? Yep. Okay, so Uday's dead now, obviously, but he was noted as speaking English very well. And all of the other hard facts we have about his education comport with Dina's story. He wasn't a great student, but he wasn't a bad one. And there aren't really any clear and credible claims that he was involved in hardcore violence. There are some, but not any that I find super believable. Until he's 15 and his dad starts taking him to see and possibly help out in the torture chambers that he's operating. Right. Yeah. And I think that assuming that's true and it's pretty consistent, I can see this being what sort of changes him, because by the time he's an adolescent, Saddam is looking at his eldest son as the heir apparent. But that's not gonna last, like, forever, Right. Uday's going to start to really change and take a turn for the brutal as a young adult. It's a little unclear to me when exactly that starts, but I can definitely see a lot of this being the result of Saddam wanting to raise his heir to be strong and powerful and just kind of destroying this kid's mind and turning him into a dangerous homicidal maniac. Because Saddam doesn't do the same thing with Koussay. The funniest thing about maybe there's some fundamental difference in the two of them. I don't know. But it kind of reads to me just like he got better at being a parent. In between the two, it was like, oh, I fucked up the main kid. I gotta pick a new heir. I'm not gonna make. I gotta make this next one turn out more normal.
- [27:38]
B
Same thing. It's an Irma Bombeck quote. Right. Children are like. Are like pancakes. You have to throw the first one out.
- [27:44]
A
Right? Right. That's kind of how Saddam treats Uday after a point. But in this era, Uday's still looking like the heir apparent, you know, and he hasn't done anything too crazy. So. One person who claims to have attended private school with Uday is Latif Yahya. And you may have heard of this guy. He also becomes particularly famous in the post Gulf War period, and then again right before Operation Iraqi Freedom or when we invaded Iraq for the second and really, really illegal time. Right. So if you've heard of Lateef Yahya, Dr. Lateef Yahya, it's because he's going to claim to have been forced to serve as Uday's body double. You've probably heard of Saddam's body doubles, the whole family, lot of stories. They may all be lies. By the way, I can't prove. We'll thought I may do a dedicated story. I can't actually prove that, like, they had body doubles in the way it was. Usually takes it as red. But then when you look into, like, okay, well, did they find any of those guys? And it's like, no, they never did. Oh, that's weird. It's weird that, like, the actual individual body doubles, the guys who claim they were always have really sketchy stories that you can't back up. And the evidence, like the body doubles that were supposed to be found mostly weren't there. And it kind of looks like maybe instead of having a stable of comedic body doubles, it just looks like some of his guards who looked like him could also, like, if you just want to, like, run a dude out who might look like the boss to see if anyone's going to try to shoot at him or something. And maybe it wasn't as crazy elaborate as. As all the news reported it to be.
- [29:10]
B
I was just watching Veep, and there was like a plot line in Veep where her, like, primary Secret Service assigned to her looks like her from the back. Yeah, it's not a body double. It's just like.
- [29:20]
A
Exactly.
- [29:21]
B
If somebody's gonna shoot you the back of the head, maybe they'll shoot her.
- [29:24]
A
So much late 90s, early 2000s comedy relied upon fucking Saddam Hussein body doubles. Like, that was a really big. I don't know why in the media. And it just. Anyway, this guy Lateef Yahya is going to claim to have been Uday's body double. And so a lot of our best Uday stories, the wildest stories of Uday being a maniac come from Dr. Lateef Yahya.
- [29:45]
B
Oh, so from a guy who might be making them up.
- [29:48]
A
He's definitely making it Up. Latif Yahya's for sure a con man, a huge con man. He definitely lied about a bunch of stuff. And there's zero evidence whatsoever he was ever Uday's body double. However, he may have known Uday, that doesn't mean he didn't know him at all, because there is some evidence that he may have been connected to the regime in some, like, kind of corrupt ways, like some of the money laundering and stuff.
- [30:10]
B
The best cons have a little bit of truth in the middle, Like a little nougat, center of truth.
- [30:14]
A
He denies that entirely. There's just allegations. I don't fully know what's going on with this guy, but there's no reason to really think he was Uday's body double. But he may have, in fact, known Uday. He came from a wealthy family in Baghdad. He claims he and Uday went to the same, like, primary school. Private school. Like private primary school. And they very well may have. I can't disprove that. So I will read you some of his accounts. But I need you to remember this guy is for sure a liar. So I don't know. I'm not gonna tell you to take the. You're gonna run into this guy anytime you read about Uday. So I don't wanna ignore him. Cause then people will be like, why didn't you include this guy? Well, because he's a fucking liar. But I will tell you some of what he says. Cause again, he may have known Uday. There's some reason to believe that he just definitely wasn't doing what he said he was. So here's his account of supposedly Uday in, like, high school, basically. First came the bodyguards, then Uday, usually in a T shirt and jeans, like a cowboy. His hair was longer than ours, and he wore it in an Afro like Jimi Hendrix. After a few weeks, we finally got used to the daily performance. Uday was never friendly, never normal, never conventional. And I actually found him repugnant from the very first. He had no respect for the teachers or anyone else who tried to tell him what to do. He couldn't care less about tests or homework or anything. There were 24 of us in the class. And while everyone else worked hard to succeed, Uday wasn't interested. If a teacher tried to call him to the blackboard, Uday would throw chalk at him and order him to change the subject or simply to leave him alone. He came when he wanted to, left when he wanted to, and basically did whatever he wanted. He never took his textbooks home with him. And nonetheless, he received the best grades at the end of the school year. And I don't actually have that much trouble believing it, you know, that. That, again, this guy may have been in position to have known Uday. And that's not necessarily inconsistent with, like, five or six years later, the kid that we heard about earlier, especially going through some rough years with his dad.
- [32:05]
B
That's exactly the kind of behavior I would expect from someone who doesn't have no. Said to him, you're not gonna punish him, you're not gonna flunk him. So why. Why would he. He's a teenage teenager.
- [32:15]
A
I know. For sure. For sure. Yeah. And again, as I just said, I think Lateef Yahya is not a super honest guy. But also, if you're gonna be running a con like that, they are often based on some truths, and there's evidence, you know, it's not impossible. So I. I don't find that a super. But this sounds description.
- [32:34]
B
Yeah. Like, of course he's disrespectful to his teachers. What are they gonna do?
- [32:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right? So Yaya claims Uday obeyed no rules and even broke the strictest taboo of all girls. This means that one time he brought his girlfriend to class with him. Yaya describes him enjoying the teacher's helplessness when Uday ordered him to continue teaching while he made out with his girlfriend. He claims this teacher was gone the next day and none of us ever saw him again. And I think that's a lie. And I guess I might be able to believe that he knew Uday a little or knew him at a distance and just kind of added some bullshit, too. I don't know. Maybe this is all like. But there's one more study of Uday, School days. In Yahya's questionable book that I will include. He claims that in 1980, soon after Saddam took power, like, in the, like, front power. Right? Like, he's no longer kind of sitting in the back pretending to be the vp. Uday asked Yaya to paint a picture of his father as a congratulations gift. So Yaya says he took this as an honor initially. And he finishes a painting of Saddam Hussein, and he gives it to Uday in class, and the dictator's son is really happy and compliments him, and quote, he heaped me with compliments. Simply perfect. Simply perfect. He lisped because he had slightly protruding teeth and thus a slight speech defect. Although no one ever mentioned it, and this is interesting, I found one other account, at least, that Uday had a speech impediment that I can like to a separate person. So at least a couple people have said that. It's weird to me that his English teacher didn't notice it. Maybe he didn't have a lisp in English. I know. I guess that's. That's possible. I don't know.
- [34:07]
B
But a lisp specifically is like a. Isn't it like a. Like a structural thing in your mouth? It's like something you're doing with your mouth that you would do in any language, I assume. I mean, we can ask another.
- [34:17]
A
I'm not a. My mom was a speech language pathologist, ironically. But I don't know shit, so I'm not going to try to guess more. I can't say that he's like. Because other people do talk about him having it. It's just interesting that his teacher didn't seem to mention that either. And I could also see this. Him kind of wanting to make fun of Uday. And this was a time in which it was more acceptable. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with having a speech impediment, but in the 90s, it was a lot more acceptable to, like, mock people for stuff like that. Like, people did that a lot more openly. And this is kind of a shitty guy. So that might just be what he's doing here. I don't actually know. So, yeah, Yaya says that Uday was thrilled and starts seeking him out and trying to hang out with him every day after getting this painting of Saddam and, quote, he even promised he would give me everything I wanted. He would sort it all out. But Yaya claims he instinctively knew to keep Uday at a distance because he wasn't comfortable that their peers kept pointing out how similar they looked. That, like, wow, you guys really look a lot alike. And they did look kind of similar, a little. Yeah. I would look at it crazily, but somewhat, yeah. Dr. Lateef, Yaya and Uday. Now, I'll caution against giving again, too much credence to anything in this fucker's book, but it's not too wild a claim. Yaya claims that he and Uday lost touch after graduating, like you do. And we'll hear more of Yaya's claims next episode. We will talk about him more. But let's get back to Uday. So, after graduating, you know, the school, the high school where he and Yahya went together, Uday went to Baghdad Medical College. And you can kind of gather how legitimately he got. Intro. He earned his introduction to Baghdad Medical College by the fact that he dropped out three days later.
- [35:54]
B
Oh, three days.
- [35:55]
A
Medical school for 96 hours.
- [35:58]
B
So, like, he wouldn't have even attended very many lectures at that point.
- [36:01]
A
I don't know if he attended any.
- [36:03]
B
He signed up for classes, he got to the dorm and he went home.
- [36:06]
A
Yeah. No, no. He might have gotten spooked by his. The first stethoscope.
- [36:11]
B
It's.
- [36:11]
A
Thank God he didn't. Dr. Uday Hussein. No. Probably not a good idea.
- [36:16]
B
Okay. I looked it up, and maybe it's just. I mean, they're just, like, two guys who both have a mustache.
- [36:21]
A
Yeah, yeah. That's the other thing. And this is also part of the. If you read, like, the. Some of the Saddam Hussein body double stories. Having been to Iraq a good amount of times, I could just see those being stories of, like, well, they were just looking for a guy who's kind of Saddam size and had a mustache because they needed somebody at a distance for a minute. But that's not as crazy as he's got, like, this team of men who live their entire lives pretending to be him and get, like, facial surgery, you know? I don't know. Which is true. So he drops out of Baghdad Medical College, and next he starts taking classes at the College of Engineering, where he got a bachelor's degree. And then he attends military academy, and he writes a thesis on the Iran Iraq War. He's trying different things.
- [37:08]
B
He's trying to be a doctor, be an engineer, be a general. Who knows?
- [37:11]
A
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. He needs to establish his bona fides as, like, this is why I'm good to follow in my father's footsteps. You know, I have the military experience. I have this professional experience. Now. He's not really doing much of any work here. His thesis is nearly universally agreed to have been written by, like, a professional military advisor in the Iraqi army. He just, like, writes it for Uday, which would be nice. Although I guess in the United States, if Pete Hegseth wrote your essay, I don't think it would get you very much.
- [37:43]
B
So I guess it depends on who's grading.
- [37:47]
A
Yeah, I guess it depends on who's grading. Per George Woodward's article, quote, while at university, Uday wanted to marry a fellow student from a noble Iraqi family, but his father refused. He wanted a bride from within the family clan. Uday obeyed. But from then on, he was spoken of as a serial rapist. Girls were allegedly abducted for him and forced into sex. One of the most famous stories says that a bride was kidnapped for Uday on the second day of her wedding. After the rape, she could not live with the horror and took her own life. And the groom, by Uday's order, was hanged as a preventative measure. Now, that's an awful story. And you hear a couple versions of it. So there, it either means either he did stuff like this several times or like one person told this story about him and maybe pieces of it were true and other pieces aren't, but people just started spinning it off. I. It's very hard for me to tell because there's slightly different versions of this story. And I don't know, are these evidence of him doing it a bunch or is this evidence of like, the same. Because a lot of these come from, like, people, dissidents who leave Saddam's Iraq and are telling all sorts of horrible stories. And I don't doubt some amount of this is happening. It's just hard to tell what is happening and which stories are true and which ones are like the nth repetition of something that has changed over telling a bunch of times. Right.
- [39:01]
B
And I guess too, if you're, you know, if he.
- [39:02]
A
It's murky.
- [39:04]
B
Take as a given, he is a serial rapist. He is committing these sexual crimes.
- [39:08]
A
Pretty good evidence that he was. Yeah.
- [39:10]
B
Abducting a woman on her wedding night and raping her. Is this sort of worst scenario of this genre of crime?
- [39:17]
A
Exactly.
- [39:17]
B
This is very. This is dictator's son premenakta type shit.
- [39:20]
A
I never doubt the basics of, like, oh, dictator's son committed a lot of rape.
- [39:25]
B
But these particular details is like the thing. What's the worst version of this story you could tell?
- [39:31]
A
The theatricality always makes me second guess. Like, this doesn't necessarily always seem like something a person would do. Right. Like, not even. I don't think he's this badass.
- [39:40]
B
Oh, I don't.
- [39:41]
A
I guess this seems weirdly elaborate.
- [39:42]
B
Like you're getting jaded. You had done too many sex crimes.
- [39:47]
A
Yeah. And again, so I can't. For reasons like that, I can't throw all this stuff out either because he does some pretty crazy shit. Yeah. And one of the reasons that kind of makes me hesitant about this is that one of the most detailed accounts of this kind of like him murdering, like, raping a woman after her wedding and like, there being murders after that comes from Latif Yahya. Right. He's got a story that sounds a lot like the one I just recounted to you that I found from a 2009 interview he gave to the National. And this is in an article on Michael Thibodeau. So this is years after Uday is dead. He tells of a grotesque episode in El Habania, Iraq's leading honeymoon resort, when Uday noticed a newlywed couple walking hand in hand and called over to them. Uday was livid when they ignored him. Mr. Yahya attempted to persuade Uday to leave the couple alone, pointing out that they had only been married a few days. Uday snapped back, this isn't your business. Uday's pimps beat up the husband and forced the beautiful bride to his suite, where he raped her in shame and despair. She later threw herself to her death from the fourth floor window of the building. Mr. Yahya says the husband was accused of trying to kill Uday and sentenced to death, but was later spared because of his long service in a war against Iran for which he was awarded medals. The man Yahya claims was one of those who nearly killed uday in a 1996 assassination attempt. And I have that. So this is part of why I have trouble believing, specifically, is that we know this story. Yahya gives claims from when he's supposedly Uday's body double, and he almost certainly wasn't. So that means I don't believe this story. And that's so similar to the other one that it makes me wonder how much of these specific, really theatrical stories of rape are just sort of like things that enemies concocted in that period of time when it was profitable to do so.
- [41:29]
B
But again, kernels of truth. Right? So I'm sure he's doing totally raped married women who then killed themselves because within that culture, she would not be able to go back to her family.
- [41:41]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:43]
B
Kernels of truth.
- [41:43]
A
I don't. Kernels of truth. It's just there's so much of it that's like, but then he tried to
- [41:49]
B
kill him, and then he let him live because of his medals. Like, that's too many details.
- [41:53]
A
There's a lot of, like, yeah, I don't know. We'll see. I'm trying to present you with all this so that, like, you, the listener, can conclude what you want to believe about Uday Hussein, but choose your own opinion. It's hard to tell for sure with stuff like this. It's so politicized. The fact that the US was looking for any excuse to. To do a war against Saddam's Iraq makes it hard to judge every piece of information as easily as I'd otherwise like to, but, yeah. Anyway, all of this takes us up to the early 1980s. During this period of time, Iraq was not yet the global pariah state that it would become after Desert Storm. And it had one of the best football teams in the entire Middle East. Iraqis had become very proud of their team, which got it first. Foreign manager, the Romanian Colonel Dragushin in 1962. And in 1965, under his leadership, they won the Arab Nations Cup. They won it again in 1966. People started calling them by the nickname the Lions of Mesopotamia, which is an undoubtedly cool name for your football team.
- [42:55]
B
I mean, that rocks.
- [42:55]
A
That's pretty sick. Yeah, that rocks. Yeah. That's a dudes rock moment.
- [43:00]
B
Given the guys involved, I'm surprised there wasn't a real lion on the field. Where's the lion? Give me a lion.
- [43:06]
A
I don't know that there wasn't, Molly. And I would also like to remind you, you've got a fucking Romanian man whose last name is basically Dragon and a team full of Iraqis. The mustache game in that team, we don't have the capability to recreate mustaches that were that powerful.
- [43:22]
B
I need to see this guy.
- [43:23]
A
Amazing stuff. Yeah. I can only imagine him in my dreams. There might actually be pictures of the guy. I didn't look them up, but I'd be disappointed if he doesn't have a beautiful mustache. So first couple of years that this guy is working, the Iraqi team in the mid-60s is really starting to get off the ground in a big way. It's looking good and for a new country, and Iraq is a new country in the mid-60s. Having a football team that's a huge hit, one of the best in the region. That's a big deal. And so it becomes integral to this burgeoning sense of national pride that Iraqi people are getting. You know, the team becomes very beloved for this reason. However, after the mid-60s, they kind of backslide for quite a while. There's this initial period of greatness, and then through the late 60s, up through much of the 70s, you know, there's a lot of unrest and disorder in the country. Saddam is rising to power and causing a good amount of that unrest. It's a rough period for the team. So after Saddam takes power and starts a war against Iran in 1984, that war is consuming Iraqi soldiers at a terrifying rate. And Saddam needs something to bind the people together and improve morale, because the population is not happy with this war that did not need to happen.
- [44:44]
B
So you're saying people don't love it when you take them into an unnecessary war with Iran and you should distract them with soccer?
- [44:51]
A
Yes, Saddam Hussein.
- [44:53]
B
Something that we wouldn't know anything.
- [44:54]
A
World leader. Exactly. No. Yeah, no, it's never happened again. Never has a world leader started an ill advised war with Iran and then tried to distract the country by a soccer game against Iran. Yeah, that's never happened before.
- [45:07]
B
It's never happened.
- [45:09]
A
So yeah, there's wars consuming human beings at a terrifying rate and Saddam needs something to improve morale. I'm going to quote from Justin Sherman's article again here. In the hope that his son could help rebuild the spirit of the nation while also proving himself a worthy successor, Saddam handed Uday the reins of both the country's Olympic committee and its football federation. Through sports, Saddam believed that a fervent nationalism would return, permeating through the sun kissed football pitches to the trenches in the desert. The appointment of the 20 year old Uday would initially yield historic results. Iraq would win the Gulf cup his first year in charge, followed by the Arab cup just a year later. However, nothing could prepare them for what was about to come. With a dramatic win over Syria in their final match of qualifiers, Iraq punched their ticket to the 1986 World cup in Mexico, which to this day represents their first and only appearance in the prestigious tournament. So, wow. Pretty good early first two year run for the fail for, you know, Saddam's Nepo baby son.
- [46:07]
B
But like, is that because of his management or were they gonna go anyway?
- [46:11]
A
And he was just there, so not long before this. And by, by the way, I should note, IR is in the World cup this year. So this was the first article since Uday, these articles revealed. But I believe, I think this is their first. Yeah. Qualified for the second time in 2026. So that is something to celebrate this year. Like I, I love that. So they can do it without, they
- [46:32]
B
can do it without Uday.
- [46:34]
A
They could. They finally did. They finally did. It took a while. Um, like, and I, I, I, I have, I've loved the country a long time. Like it's, it's, unfortunately when we're telling Iraqi stories, they're often very sad just because of how difficult that country's recent history has been. But it's actually really awesome. I'm really happy for them that they made it back to the World cup because that's going to mean a lot to people. Like we've been talking about, like football means a lot to people. Teams like this, especially when shit's really hard out there, means a hell of a lot to people. So that's actually super nice to hear and that's why Saddam thinks this is a good idea. Right? And at first, it kind of looks like it is. You know, Uday pulls the team. It seems like Uday pulls the tee. Now, the re. What's part of what's really happening is they've recently brought on a new coach, and he's delegating.
- [47:18]
B
Like, Uday doesn't know shit about managing a national soccer team.
- [47:22]
A
No. And I think this new coach has started before, and it's kind. That's kind of started to. But he doesn't fuck it up. You got to give him credit for that. Like, he doesn't. He doesn't step over his own dick.
- [47:30]
B
I don't know. Udaidi Hussein.
- [47:33]
A
Yeah.
- [47:33]
B
I don't.
- [47:35]
A
I certainly can't say that he was bad at the job at this stage. Right. But it may just be that's because he was too nervous to, like, do anything. So maybe he was just listening to his subordinates. This period of time. Cause it's not gonna. This is gonna be the only period of time where things are, like, really good for the team. But, yeah, at first, things are going really well. And at this stage in the story, like, the Lions of Mesopotamia. It's like a fucking 90s movie. It's like a Disney movie from, like, 1996.
- [48:02]
B
Such a cool name.
- [48:04]
A
You've got the dictator's failson, who doesn't particularly like football and has never been good at anything and is desperate to please his father. And he takes on this team that had been great once, but they've fallen into disrepute, and he welds them together into this group of lovable misfits, and they make it to the World Cup. That's a really good Disney movie.
- [48:23]
B
I'll watch that movie. I'll watch that.
- [48:24]
A
Absolutely. Absolutely. If you do not include anything that happens after the World Cup. It's a great Disney movie.
- [48:29]
B
No credits roll over the football pitch.
- [48:32]
A
Yeah, over the football pitch. In the torture chamber.
- [48:36]
B
No, no, no. At the World Cup. It ends there.
- [48:39]
A
It ends there. It ends there. That's right. It ends there. Cause there's no torture at the World cup other than having to watch football.
- [48:48]
B
There was an issue with some slaves.
- [48:49]
A
Here's ads. Well, yeah, they're slaves, too. They're slaves, too. We should do it. There's a lot of issues to have with.
- [48:54]
B
We should do it.
- [48:55]
A
Yeah. I was trying to go to ads after accusing FIFA of complicity in slavery. Accusing definitely are. That is a fact. You know what else is a fact? Molly? It's time for ads.
- [49:08]
B
Wow.
- [49:12]
A
In the moment, it felt like it was Going on forever. I didn't think I was going to live. I was terrified.
- [49:20]
B
There was no anything inside those eyes.
- [49:23]
A
They turned black. It scared the hell out of me. That was your first murder case?
- [49:31]
B
Yes, sir.
- [49:32]
A
Fair to say this was the biggest case of your career?
- [49:34]
B
Yes, sir.
- [49:35]
A
Rape and murder of a 12 year old child. As bad as it gets. I would think so
- [49:40]
B
Evil. Wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder take place by Crevat and Depo.
- [49:46]
A
Anthony Depo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said, I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grave. Listen to the Devil's quarry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear the Devil's Quarry ad, free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. We're back. So it's in the days right before the World cup that we first start to see signs. If, and I think this is probably likely the success of the Iraqi team in Uday's first couple years is because he mostly, like, stayed out of his own way and let other people make decisions. If that's the case, then it's. It's right before the game that he starts to think, maybe I am a genius and I should be making more decisions.
- [50:51]
B
That's exactly the right time to fuck with the team.
- [50:54]
A
Like right before you want to start doing it. That's when you want to start doing it.
- [50:59]
B
It's the lineup.
- [50:59]
A
Yeah.
- [51:00]
B
Let's put on different shoes.
- [51:02]
A
He's accused later of having been a hardcore drug user. There's certainly evidence that he used heroin and other, like, pills on. And pills and stuff. On occasion I've heard allegations that he used a lot of coke. It would certainly make sense. I don't know if he's doing that now. That could expl. If he's.
- [51:16]
B
If he was exactly the right guy
- [51:18]
A
because his team went to the World cup, that might explain when he decides maybe I need to be making more of the decisions I need. I can't listen to the coach anymore. This is all. But it's got its udes time, you know, I gotta get out.
- [51:28]
B
I gotta get out there.
- [51:29]
A
Yeah. So he's like, while they're at the World cup, he gets asked to organize friendly matches while they're there with both Brazil and England. And this is like a big deal. These don't count for the overall World cup, but it's still a big deal. Iraq is a new country and Their team has just started becoming good again. Brazil and England's teams are both very well established, and they're both like, hey, that's like, basically, that's a huge compliment saying, we want to do this, like, game with you. Right. It should be a huge thing for Iraq. It's a really. Among other things, it's the country being kind of invited into the global community in, like, a really prominent, big way. It's a big deal. It should have been a great moment. Uday says, no, fuck off, we're not having any friendly games. Cuz he thinks his guys will lose, and then his dad will be angry at him if they lose the friendly games. And it's like, it's not about winning or losing. It's about the fact that you're, like, a part of this community of nations and, like, your team is. And he can't see that because he's scared of his dad being accustomed to
- [52:29]
B
him for losing, fear of loss. Like, you're gonna have to play those teams eventually.
- [52:33]
A
Yeah, you're gonna have to play him eventually. Like, this is.
- [52:35]
B
You might as well play them in a relaxed manner where they're gonna go kind of easy on you.
- [52:39]
A
Right, right, Exactly. And also it might make your team better. Like, playing against might be good teams. Yeah. It's like. And I can believe that he didn't do this because he was scared of his dad. He didn't want to. Like, he was scared it would make him look bad. Right. It's the kind of insecurity you would expect out of a. A guy like this in this situation.
- [52:58]
B
A guy who's seen his dad torture somebody.
- [53:01]
A
Right, exactly.
- [53:01]
B
For failure.
- [53:02]
A
Exactly. Yeah. And it makes it clear why Uday was never going to be a very good team manager. Right. And he makes the further mistake after this of replacing right before the World Cup. He replaces the. I mean, it's. He's not technically the team manager, but he is doing that job. And he replaces the guy who had been the official team manager with his assistant right before the match for no real reason. Right. He's just switching people around. He changes the team colors from green and white to yellow and blue with no consideration that for 20 years, Iraqi fans had gotten used to the old colors. He just does it for no reason.
- [53:35]
B
Athletes are so superstitious. They're so superstitious and paranoid. They spoil. They spook like horses.
- [53:42]
A
They spook like horses. That's exactly. Yeah. And so do fans, to be honest.
- [53:46]
B
Like, why would you do that?
- [53:48]
A
Yeah.
- [53:48]
B
There are people out there wearing Dirty underwear because it's their lucky panties. Like you.
- [53:53]
A
Yeah, you can't. You cannot understand how crazy people are about sports. Uday, change it. And, yeah, I wonder how much of it is that he's not really into sports. Like, that is emphasized in a lot of what you read is he never really cared all that much, other than he didn't want to lose, you know? So Justin Sherman argues that as a result of all this, the Iraqi team arrives in Mexico for the World cup, quote, ill prepared and mentally shackled. And it's possible that by this point, Uday's already started threatening his players. Um, I don't know if he's already started. You know, the allegations of torture don't start until after this. I don't know when it actually started. Um. Now, I'm not well suited to the task of judging Iraq's performance at the World cup, but the accounts I've read all seem to agree. They did a really good job for a new and inexperienced team. You gotta remember what's happened here is Iraq is a team that has just started seeing success again. They won some local championships, and kind of. It's not a fluke would be the wrong. But they get. They get really lucky and they make it to the World cup, and they're not really fully ready to be there.
- [54:52]
B
And that's not a bad thing. Like playing Brazil is a different situation.
- [54:57]
A
Exactly. And this could be really good for a new team.
- [55:01]
B
Right.
- [55:01]
A
Getting into the World cup this early, getting to play with teams of that caliber, that could really help move them forward and take them up. Right. And they don't do badly in the World Cup. Right. Not compared to how new they are. Right. They get knocked out pretty early. They only score one goal in all three of their games. However, if you just kind of read it that way, that makes it seem like they did less well than they actually did. And I don't want to shortchange the team in his article.
- [55:26]
B
Getting there at all. Like, even, like, losing to a good team doesn't mean you did badly. Like Kate Verde. Tying up Spain was an incredible win. They didn't win the game.
- [55:37]
A
Exactly.
- [55:38]
B
That's an incredible win.
- [55:39]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And that's what. George Woodward points that out in his article for Tribuna, and I want to read from that here. Quote. After rewatching archive footage from 40 years ago, we can see that Iraq looked. Looked good, but lacked experience of major tournaments. In an evenly matched game with Paraguay, they conceded the only goal from a quickly taken free kick at the end of the first half. They even equalized. But referee Picon Akong from Mauritius disallowed the goal he blew for halftime just as the decisive corner was being delivered against Belgium. Iraq actually looked better and more dangerous, even with 10 men. The Belgians scored the winner from a penalty that today might well have been overturned by VAR at the. In the final match at the 100,000 seated Azteca against Ho Mexico, who needed to improve their goal difference, the Iraqis defended bravely and conceded only once. So it can be said that they performed with dignity despite their final place in the table. In a good world, if this is like a normal country with a normal leadership, this would be the start of like a really good team, you know, that could build from this. Right, right, right. This should have been the start of something great. And it's not Iraq. Iraq doesn't make it back again until this year to the World Cup. And the story a lot of what we're gonna be talking about this week is why, Because Uday is a big part of why Iraq does not go back. That this promising start does not continue promising. Because Uday can't accept that just getting to the World cup was a victory. And I have to presume part of this is because Saddam is a huge asshole to him about losing. So when the team returns home to Baghdad, they're greeted not the way they should have been, as light a team that did really, really well and has a bright future. Instead, he explodes with rage. And in the days and years to come, the Iraqi football team is going to see just how violent Uday Hussein could be. And we'll talk about that in part two.
- [57:28]
B
Woo hoo.
- [57:29]
A
How you feeling?
- [57:30]
B
I'm pumped. I'm ready to watch some soccer.
- [57:32]
A
Well, we're just gonna talk about it. Cause I don't know much about soccer. But what I do know about Molly is that you have a podcast. That's all I know. I'm like Tabrauser. You know, I stumbled into work this morning with like a sign around my neck that says weird Little guys hosted by Molly Cocker. That's all it is. I don't even have a name.
- [57:51]
B
It's Tabula Raza.
- [57:52]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. It's something to do with the German cavalry.
- [57:56]
B
The ideal listener.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah, exactly. That's what we in fact target directly for Germans several centuries ago who lost their memories. Somehow I don't remember enough of that myth. Anyway, Molly, anything to say before we go?
- [58:12]
B
Yeah, listen to weird little guys it's fun. You'll love it.
- [58:17]
A
You'll love it. You'll love it. Listen to weird little guys.
- [58:19]
B
If you want to hear more about the clan, you know.
- [58:22]
A
Yeah, yeah. Weird little guys. Uday's a weird little guy. You love weird little guys. If you love weird little guys, listen to weird little guys. I'm not gonna say that title anymore for a minute. Hey, Weird little guys.
- [58:34]
B
Weird little guys.
- [58:34]
A
Weird little guys. Nope, nope, Nope. Nop.
- [58:37]
B
Well, Sophie came up with it. She can say it as many times as she wants. We're little guys.
- [58:40]
A
We're the guys. We're little guys. We're little guys. We're little guys. We're little guys. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.
- [58:57]
B
Full video episodes of behind the Bastards
- [59:00]
A
are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday.
- [59:03]
B
Hit remind me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com behindthebastards.
- [59:13]
A
We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking. This is Tony Yayo from the Real Report with Tony Yayo and Uncle Murder. You ever notice how everything keeps going up? Rent streaming, even extra Sosa at your favorite burrito spot. But with Boost Mobile, you don't have to play the Willis Go up Soon game. Boost Mobile offers an unlimited talk, text and data plan at a price that'll never go up. It's the same price you'll pay for life. Switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up. Only at boost mobile. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.
- [59:53]
B
There was no anything inside those eyes.
- [59:56]
A
They turned black. It scared the hell out of me.
- [60:03]
B
Evil. Wake up. I'm the one that saw the murder take place. By Crevak and Depipo.
- [60:09]
A
Anthony Depipo showed no signs of remorse, appearing unfazed after being sentenced to the maximum. I said, I'm not guilty. I'll take it to the grave. Listen to the devil's quarry in the Bone Valley. Feed on the Ice Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.