Part Two: Elizabeth Dilling: The Original Candace Owens

Summary

Behind the Bastards: Part Two – Elizabeth Dilling: The Original Candace Owens

Podcast: Behind the Bastards (Cool Zone Media/iHeartPodcasts)
Date: July 2, 2026
Hosts: Robert Evans, Brett Goldstein
Guest: Katie Stoll

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Episode Overview

This episode is the second part diving into the life and legacy of Elizabeth Dilling, an influential but toxic force in early-to-mid 20th century American reactionary politics. Framing Dilling as a proto–Candace Owens or Phyllis Schlafly, the hosts explore her pioneering role in the far-right grassroots movement, her rabid anti-communism, and antisemitism, and the ways she built an enduring influence machine—often by borrowing tactics and rhetoric that remain familiar today.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Who Was Elizabeth Dilling? Modern Parallels and Early Influences

• Dilling is described as a kind of "original Candace Owens" (or Phyllis Schlafly), but with more direct proto-fascist and Nazi connections.
• Brett Goldstein: “She’s the first…I had titled this as like the first fucking Candace Owens…she becomes crowdfunded in a way that is directly mimicking…how a lot of conservative media people get started…” [02:57]
• Katie Stoll: Notes how Dilling exploited fear-mongering as a business model, tapping into what is now a familiar right-wing grift. [03:48]

2. The “Red Network” and the Invention of the Red Scare Playbook

• Dilling’s book, The Red Network, was essentially a compendium of alleged communist sympathizers and organizations.
• Book’s opening warns of a socialist world conspiracy, using terms like the “four horsemen: atheism, immorality, class hatred, and pacifism for the sake of Red revolution.” [05:34]
• Brett mocks the melodramatic and arbitrary choice of “horsemen”: "That's just bad writing, Liz." [05:38]
• The book was dedicated to “professional patriots”—those ostracized for extreme beliefs.
• The Red Network didn’t hold up to scrutiny but was wildly popular among right-wing circles—used by police, politicians, and mobs as a pretext for harassment. [09:00]
  • “Her book is an excuse for violence, you know, more than anything.” [11:36]
• Dorothy Thompson described Dilling as “one of the most successful defamers of private character in this country.” [11:25]

3. Intersection of Misogyny, Bigotry, and Movement-Building

• Dilling consciously played to prevailing sexism, frequently writing, “I know you’re not going to trust what I’m saying about this because I’m just a lady.” [08:07]
• Katie: “It’s so fascinating…she would be the one to write this bullshit.” [08:54]
• Dilling garnered influence among wives of wealthy conservatives, leveraging them to influence their husbands. [14:00]

4. Antisemitism as Central to Dilling’s Anti-Communism

• Many named in her books were Jewish, drawing Nazi support and distribution.
  • "I'm not exaggerating by calling you basically a Nazi. If your books are primarily being sold in the Aryan Bookstore of Los Angeles…Liz is just a Nazi." [16:14]
• Repeatedly, Dilling excused Nazi persecution of Jews as “defensive”:
  • “The large number of revolutionary Russian Jews in Germany doubtless contributed towards making fascist Germany anti Semitic.” [18:20]

5. Relationship with Father Charles Coughlin

• Dilling’s idol and primary influence was Father Charles Coughlin, the “reactionary rabble rouser” whose radio show reeked of antisemitic and anti-communist conspiracies. [19:04]
• Coughlin amassed a massive following, at times 40 million listeners; Dilling closely imitated his methods for mobilization and performance. [23:10–24:07]
• Both believed only “organized political Christianity could defeat the radical left.” [23:00]
• Coughlin’s shift—from initially supporting FDR to attacking him as a communist—paralleled Dilling’s unwavering hostility to FDR. [25:26]

6. Dilling on the Political Stage: Campaigns and Grifts

• Dilling moved from book-author to in-demand far-right speaker, earning significant income from speaking tours.
• She tried to swing the 1936 Republican nomination, demonizing figures she deemed insufficiently anti-communist.
• Ridiculed weak GOP figures like Alfred Landon and obsessed over Jewish “manipulation” of campaigns. [39:26–41:18]
• Mocked political opponents and even named her disliked dog “Landon” after the GOP nominee she begrudgingly supported. [40:25]

7. Political Stunts, Crowdfunding, and "Proto-Patreon"

• Dilling pioneered what is now a right-wing crowd-funding model, extracting small donations from devoted but frequently struggling followers.
  • “This is kind of how she...puts out what people are…It does sound weirdly like modern, right-wing crowdfunding…” [54:45]
• Urged letter-writing campaigns to the Vatican in support of Coughlin—an early example of coordinated pressure politics. [55:44]

8. Collaboration with Fascist Movements & Denial of Nazi Atrocities

• Dilling attended the infamous 1938 Nuremberg rally in Germany, openly admired fascism, and penned fantasies of “an American Hitler.”
  • “She goes to a fucking Nuremberg rally? Liz Dilling. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.” [61:00]
• She was involved with America First and anti-interventionist "Mother's Movement," which lobbied Congress against US entry into WWII—often theatrically and aggressively. [68:54]
• After Pearl Harbor, she was swept up in the government's "Brown Scare" of Nazi sympathizers, but charges did not stick. Her work became a resource for postwar Red Scare rhetoric. [71:00]
• In later years, Dilling was a Holocaust denier, concocted conspiracy theories about US presidents being secret Jews, and wrote even more blatantly racist books.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On The Recurring Nature of Far-Right Tactics:
  Katie Stoll: “It’s so embarrassing how little these conversations have changed.” [05:34]
• On Enabling Violence:
  Brett Goldstein: “Her book is an excuse for violence, more than anything.” [11:36]
• On Conservative Business Models:
  Brett Goldstein: “One of the most reliable ways to make a lot of money in American media is to find a group of people that a bunch of assholes already wanna hurt and then give them an excuse…” [13:31]
• On Dilling's Audience:
  “One of Elizabeth's fans told her that he consulted the Red Network almost daily, a fact that implies a life more depressing than I can express.” [13:47]
• On Antisemitic Bookstores and Associations:
  Brett: “Liz is just a Nazi. She's selling her book in Nazi bookstores because she's a Nazi.” [16:14]
• On Dilling’s Proto-Crowdfunding:
  Brett: “This is kind of how she...puts out what people are. It does sound weirdly like a modern, like, right-wing crowdfunding kind of deal…” [54:45]
• On Dilling Attending Nazi Rallies:
  Brett: “She goes to a fucking Nuremberg rally? Liz Dilling. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.” [61:00]
• On Dilling’s Later Life:
  Brett: “One of her favorite conspiracy theories later in life is that Eisenhower, Dwight Eisenhower was a secret Jew.” [72:07]

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• 02:57: Framing Dilling as a proto–Candace Owens/Schlafly; the origins of her grassroots/crowdfunding approach.
• 05:34 – 09:00: The Red Network’s themes, language, and impact on American right-wing paranoia.
• 11:25 – 14:50: Utilization by police, influence through rich conservative wives, blending misogyny with right-wing activism.
• 16:14 – 18:20: Nazi affiliations, Aryan Bookstore, explicit antisemitism in Dilling's work.
• 19:04 – 25:26: Father Coughlin’s biography, influence, and relationship to Dilling.
• 32:03 – 36:21: Dilling’s rise as a star speaker, strategies to unseat FDR, and campaign misadventures.
• 54:45: Dilling’s “proto-Patreon” fundraising and form-letter activism.
• 61:00 – 67:01: Nuremberg rally attendance, admiration for fascism, “The Octopus” and its virulent antisemitism.
• 68:54 – 70:00: The “Mother’s Movement,” lobbying against US entry into WWII, performative and manipulative protest tactics.
• 71:00 – End: Postwar legacy: cited during McCarthyism, Holocaust denial, increasingly unhinged conspiracist writing, death in 1966.

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Tone & Closing Reflections

The hosts employ their trademark sardonic, informed, and incredulous tone, frequently expressing disbelief at how Dilling’s tactics—defamation, conspiratorial associations, and crowd-driven activism—are echoed in the present. Katie Stoll repeatedly notes the terrifying continuity of rhetoric and strategy:
“It is depressing always to see how little has changed. The attacks, the phrasing of the attacks, the lies.” [73:33]
Robert Evans and Brett Goldstein balance dark humor and historical context, ending with palpable relief at Dilling’s demise but frustration at the endurance of her hateful legacy.

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Summary

This episode exposes Elizabeth Dilling as a central architect of the American far-right movement, whose methods—red-baiting, antisemitic propaganda, grassroots fear-mongering, and innovative use of fledgling mass media—paved the way for generations of reactionary figures. The hosts trace the lineage of toxic ideas, drawing lines from Dilling’s era to today’s political landscape, underscoring both the danger and the persistent allure of bad actors throughout history.

Transcript

[Robert Evans]

Call zone media.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know, Katie. I'm not sure if I think the government would call that terrorism or not. You should really check with your lawyer. Oh, hey, everybody. It's behind the bastards. I'm sorry. I was just talking with my guest for this week, Katie Stoll. Katie, let's pretend we weren't talking. How are you doing? How's everything? Everything fine and innocent.

[Katie Stoll]

Absolutely nothing incriminating happening over.

[Brett Goldstein]

Nothing incriminating at all.

[Katie Stoll]

Above board, legal.

[Brett Goldstein]

You had the right to own those F22s.

[Robert Evans]

I can vouch for this woman. This woman has done nothing wrong.

[Katie Stoll]

Nothing wrong except watch Gilmore Girls.

[Brett Goldstein]

Nothing wrong. Those were your recreational F22s. You were allowed to have them. Absolutely. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

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[Brett Goldstein]

We're talking about Liz Dilling in part two of our BTBS on She's, you know, she's the first. Honestly, she's the first. I had titled this as like the first fucking Candace Owens or something like that or Laura Loomer. She's got pieces of those. But, you know, now that I think she is more like the precursor to Phyllis Schlafly, like that's really probably the best way to. Although as we're going to talk about, the reason why I thought more modern with it is she becomes crowdfunded in a way that is directly mimicking, I mean both, like how a lot of like people just in our industry make their living today, but how a lot of like conservative media people get started where she is building this like grassroots like from the. She's like convincing people to give her money to go like root out communists in the world. Like it's a very modern business model. Which is weird to me.

[Katie Stoll]

Absolutely. She tapped into that fear mongering grift real early on.

[Brett Goldstein]

Exactly. So she is ahead of her time. You know, you can. You never like, we don't like to be like, well, that's a smart lady, but that is a smart lady. Just not in a way that most of us like respect people being intelligent. But she clearly is.

[Katie Stoll]

It's a smart lady who had the wrong influences and a brain that wasn't put to its proper use and then found its uses. That's what I was getting from our first episode.

[Brett Goldstein]

I think that might. That's a healthy way to look at it as like, oh, if only the things that she was clearly gifted at had been put to a less evil end. But then the question is like, would that have happened? Would something less evil have motivated her this way? You know, and I guess that gets into the fiddlier questions about human morality. Anyway, it does. The opening of the Red Network, which again, that's her second big book. Right. That's basically this telephone book of all of the cops, communists in the country and the secret left wing agents trying to bring down capitalism. The opening of this book was dedicated to the professional patriots. Right. Again, that feels very modern where she's like, open this book. This is dedicated to the professional patriots. And she describes it as everyone who is as crazy as she is and believes that the whole country is about to fall to the red. So this Book is for all the people that everyone says that you're crazy, but you're not crazy. I know you're not crazy. We all know that. The book's intro warned about the coming communist socialist world conspiracy quote with its four horsemen, atheism, immorality, class hatred and pacifism for the sake of Red revolution is boring within our churches, schools and government and is undermining America like a cancerous growth.

[Katie Stoll]

First off, it's so embarrassing how little these conversations have changed. Sorry.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Yes, very little. Like, come on. But also the Four Horsemen. We know what the actual Four Horsemen are, and they're all cool stuff like famine and war and plague and they're not immorality. Class hatred. The Horsemen of class hatred. The horsemen of pacifism for the sake of red revolution. That's just bad writing, Liz. That's just bad writing.

[Katie Stoll]

She's taking some real liberties here.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Before she gets into the book, she makes sure to thank the staunch dar, of which the author, unfortunately is not a member, which is so, so sad. And she calls the DAR the best informed body of women on this subject in America. She just cannot stop licking those boots. Another person she thanks is Mr. Harry Young, who we talked about last episode of the American Vigilant Intelligence Federation and who brought the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to the United States, who she brags was sufficiently annoying in his anti red free speech to be honored by intimidating libel suits filed by the notorious Free Speech for Reds Only aclu. So the book was just a reprint of a lot of her old essays and a list of groups like the ACLU that have what she considered to be known communist ties. One portion of the book is dedicated to the Socialist Party and the New Deal and argues that the US Socialist Party was growing to subsume the Democratic Party and would soon take it over entirely, and that the New Deal was the instrument through which the Democratic Party would be devoured by the Socialist Party. How's the Socialist Party doing today?

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, I know.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's a fanciful document. And every notion in Dilling's book is again, fanciful at best and outright idiotic at worst. This has been proven by the paths that history took. Right. We know that she was wrong. Dilling labeled some 460American organizations communist, radical, pacifist, anarchist, socialist, or IWW controlled. That's the International Workers of the World.

[Katie Stoll]

The idea that radical pacifism is something to be afraid of is so wild.

[Brett Goldstein]

To me, pacifists are just. Pacifism only serves the Red Revolution right. It Just stops people being willing to fight against communism, you know. Oh, oh, okay. Even though weirdly enough, in like World War II, some of the only people who like her didn't want to fight the Nazis were pacifists.

[Katie Stoll]

Things get messy.

[Brett Goldstein]

Interesting in war.

[Katie Stoll]

Your allegiances and the weird.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, she never examines that at all. So it listed 13. She lists 1300 or so of these different organizations. Because she is a woman, she assumed that her own word would not be of value to the readers of her book without extensive backup. And this is one of the weirdest things about this. She repeatedly be like, I know you're not going to trust what I'm saying about this because I'm just a lady. Right. And then she'll provide. Like that's how she writes this book a lot. She'll. She'll include mail. So you don't have to take it from me. Here's a man saying the same thing. Like it's both. She's very cognizant of her readers biases and shares them. And that's part of the text in a very strange way where she's like, obviously as a girl, I don't know what I'm talking about. Here's a smarter man saying it.

[Katie Stoll]

So fascinating.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's really interesting level.

[Katie Stoll]

She doesn't buy it because she feels

[Brett Goldstein]

she would do it this way.

[Katie Stoll]

She would be the one to write this bullshit.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes. Yes. Now, the Red Network was a massive success among the crank right, which was even then forming as a reaction of the moneyed classes to FDR's New Deal and the terrifying threat of communism abroad and at home. The first ultra wealthy founders of far right anti communist paranoia have started gearing up in this period. And Elizabeth Dilling has helped to make a place for herself as one of the most prominent red baiters in the country. In the years to come, the Red Network would be cited as expert testimony in a dozen congressional investigations and legislative investigations. And Erickson writes, was used successfully in at least one court case. So a bunch of different. Like this. Her book is cited regularly. It becomes part of a bunch of different attempts to bring charges to different communist groups. There's obviously nothing of any real informative value in the Red Network. The book existed primarily to condemn people by association, using spurious rumors that would tar anyone left of Hitler as a communist subversive looking to outlaw Christianity. Because Liz did such a good job of making her book appear exhaustively sourced by citing numerous prominent cranks like the guy who helped bring modern and antisemitism to the Us. It quickly became beloved by police officers because they could say, look, we know this is a bad guy. Look at all the citations that say this group he's a part of is dangerous. Right? Like, cops love the Red Network because they can point to a meeting of an organization in their town and be like, we had to break it up. It's in this book, you know, like, she has given them the main thing they need, which is an excuse to go brutalize somebody. The New Republic would warn in an article in the 1930s that Dilling's book carried weight with many law enforcement officers, particularly local cops, who were, quote, only too glad to have a list of suspected communists that they could hassle. The book had been designed for this purpose to provide an excuse for reactionary police officers, congressmen, and private mobs to attack regular citizens. On at least two episodes of this show, I've cited the work of pioneering anti fascist journalist Dorothy Thompson, who, among other things, wrote an essay titled who Goes Fascist? That I've quoted a number of times on this. It's the one where she's playing that parlor game. She's like talking about, like a normal party in the United States in like the late 30s and is like trying to imagine if fascism came to America, which of these people would go. And it's a stunning article because it works perfectly today. She describes all the kinds of people who went fascist in our own. We've watched it happen in our own lives. Dorothy's a genius, was a brilliant writer. Dorothy Thompson described Elizabeth Dilling as, quote, one of the most successful defamers of private character in this country. And that's a very good way to look at her. Is her. Her business is defamation and it's providing an excuse for police officers for, for thugs, for. For bigots to attack folks by tarring them as communists. That's what it is. Her book is an excuse for violence, you know, more than anything.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Now, one of the things that made Elizabeth novel was her willingness to throw all pretense of civility and earnest disagreement out the window. Her enemies were communist traitor subversives, and all liberals were socialists with meant. All liberals were some kind of red. As Christine Erickson writes for the Journal of American Studies, Dilling's willingness to irreverently paint all liberals with varying shades of red won her many accolades from the right. What helped make the Red Network an instant hit among patriots was its accessibility to older studies by Representative Hamilton Fish, who headed an investigation in 1931 of communist activities in the US and Senator Clayton R. Lusk, who compiled a four volume report of the Joint Committee investigating seditious activities in New York in 1920. Now these old works weren't particularly accurate, but neither was the new data that had been gathered by guys like Harry Young. Right. And neither is anything that Liz is bringing into this. What matters is she's adding all this together, which makes it seem like there's a weight of evidence behind her claims. The Red Network sells very well, but only some of that money goes to Liz. Many copies are distributed and given away or sold by third party groups with mailing lists. And she doesn't always make money off of this. Still, even though this doesn't necessarily make Liz wealthy, it provides her with one of a kind clout amongst cranks. Right. She is now like the top of the list when it comes to this kind of person.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, yeah. I always feel like a broken record, but I have to say it, it's just, it's the same playbook. Now.

[Brett Goldstein]

Lying is the right thing to do. Lying is the right way to make a living. You know, it's just easier. Yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

And giving people the permission structure to do the bad things or to villainize people, to, you know, bring the force of the law, whatever.

[Brett Goldstein]

One of the most reliable ways to make a lot of money in American media is to find a group of people that a bunch of assholes already wanna hurt and then give them an excuse to hurt those people, you know. Great way to make money in America.

[Katie Stoll]

Oof. Thank God she didn't have a Twitter account.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. People treated her in this era like how I imagine Alex Jones wishes he was more consistently treated as a heroic truth teller who for the very first time had provided regular Americans with a way to fight back against the Reds who, you know, were destroying the country. One of Elizabeth's fans told her that he consulted the Red Network almost daily, a fact that implies a life more depressing than I can express. She was popular among women with influential husbands too, which gave her a kind of influence in and of itself. And that's like an interesting thing to me is a lot of her claims to like being able to change things is like the wife of this guy started haranguing her husband about Liz's bullshit. And so this guy got involved in making changes. Yeah, it's unfortunate what a good business that is to be in in this period of time, but it does work.

[Katie Stoll]

And smart. Smart of her, I guess, to pinpoint that as profitable for her.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. And she's very much cognizant of that, of that like this is one way you can change the world is by getting wives to harass their husbands about stuff like this.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, very effective.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Many of the people and organizations named in her book were Jewish. A fact that was not missed by the outright fascists and Nazi sympathizers that were increasingly organizing in the United states as the 30s wore on. The German American Bund distributed free copies of the Red Network. So did the Aryan Bookstore of Los Angeles, which was founded in 1933. This was an institution in LA for years, for quite a long time. Did you hear the Aryan Bookstore?

[Katie Stoll]

I have not.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, I went La Arian Bookstore. I wanted to look into this. So for an idea of the kind of good, respectable conservative writing that the Aryan Bookstore published, I found a 1940 FBI file on the Aryan Bookstore that included several examples of their original publications. So one of these was a pamphlet for the United Florida Ku Klux Klan, who apparently paid to have their weekly newspaper distributed via the bookstore. Here's how one paragraph of that document read, why the Ku Klux Klan. The facts about the Ku Klux Klan, its birth, mission and purpose have been most widely distorted by the Jew controlled news media. Immediately after the Civil War, the Jew radicals and revolutionaries who had gained a large control over the union government sent their carpetbagger stooges. And I'm not even gonna finish this paragraph cause it gets a lot worse after that. You get the idea Liz is being sold by these people, right? Like I don't need to finish that statement for you to know the company her ideas are keeping.

[Robert Evans]

My God.

[Katie Stoll]

Yikes.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, I'm not exaggerating by calling you basically a Nazi. If your books are primarily being sold in the Aryan Bookstore of Los Angeles. What I just read should make it clear that as always, Elizabeth Dilling's Anti Communism was a synonym for anti Semitism and fascist hatred. Another Aryan Bookstore publication sold right alongside the Red Network was the Christian Youth Corps Weekly Report. Sophie's gonna show you a little excerpt from the Christian Youth Corps Weekly Report. It's got a fascist looking flag with like a plus sign and like a white circle and a red background. Looks almost like a swastika. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our emblem, the red field is for the blood of Christ that was shed for us. The white circle is symbolic of the ever loving life through Christ and the cross. Oh good, that seems. And then the first article under the Christian Youth Corps Weekly Report. What is Jewish ritual murder? Oh my God, I've got another great publication Again, these are just Nazi papers. Liz is just a Nazi. She's selling her book in Nazi bookstores because she's a Nazi. I'm sharing all of these things.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, I don't think that she would shirk from that description.

[Brett Goldstein]

I mean, she, after a certain point, she sure would. But yeah, during this period of time, I think you're right. She would be proud to be identified with them. Sure.

[Katie Stoll]

I bet she still continues with her anti Communism part though.

[Brett Goldstein]

So, yeah, I'm sharing all this stuff because I want people to understand. Liz Dilling's bedfellows from the jump are outright Nazis. This is never a thing she's tricked by. She doesn't like fall into this. She's not surprised by the fact that she's like standing side by side with these folks. These are her, these are her allies from the jump. And the fact that she's also popular with garden variety conservatives is because many garden variety conservatives were also basically Nazis until World War II made that too dangerous an ideology to espouse. Dilling identified herself with these people from the jump. Jump. Writing in the Red Network that Nazi Germany was only mean to Jewish people defensively. Quote, the large number of revolutionary Russian Jews in Germany doubtless contributed towards making fascist Germany anti Semitic.

[Katie Stoll]

Oh yeah, she's absolutely racist.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, she's fucking for sure a Nazi. Easily. Easy to judge her as that if

[Katie Stoll]

she was living in Germany, she'd have the armband, you know, hey, don't worry,

[Brett Goldstein]

she'll get to Germany before the story's over.

[Narrator]

Oh, good.

[Brett Goldstein]

Don't worry, Katie.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, she hasn't traveled

[Brett Goldstein]

for the most part while she's been on this ideological journey. Elizabeth has had numerous allies, but none of them held a candle to the man who was her primary peer and influence her real in a lot of ways. Like this is the guy that she sees herself as subservient to and sees herself as really like working to like aid and further. This is the great man of her era. The finest reactionary rabble rouser of his day.

[Robert Evans]

Oh my God.

[Brett Goldstein]

Father Charles Coughlan. Now we've talked about Father Coughlin in the past. He's come up a couple of times on this show. As you'd expect from the name, Father Coughlin was a Catholic priest who was also his era's equivalent of. I mean, he's another like Alex Jones type figure. There's a lot of these guys at the time. He is like a reactionary right wing radio guy who's ranting about communist subversion on the air. He's infamous for spreading racist conspiracy theories about communism and The Jews. And he's primarily motivated, after a point, by an insane and unreasoning hatred of FDR's news deal. That's a big thing for Father Coughlin in his, like, heyday now. Okay, give you a brief overview of his life. Charles Coughlin had been born in 1891 in Hamilton, Ontario, to a devout Catholic family who encouraged him to enter preparatory seminary school at St. Michael's College when he was just 13. He'd graduated in 1911 as president of the first graduating class of his newly established college and then entered the seminary proper. Despite his confirmed status as a Canadian. His precise shade of Catholicism drew him to the United States, in particular to Waco, where he worked for the Basilian Order. Now, this basically means that he was really into this particular stream of, like, it's Catholic, but it's like orthodox coded monasticism because, like, the Basilians are mostly popular in Ukraine. But again, it's a weird, like, almost Orthodoxy colored Catholic thing, as far as I can tell. I don't understand it. Well, I'm not super into Catholicism anyway. He gets ordained on June 29, 1916, and started teaching psychology and a few other classes at Assumption College in Ontario. In 1918, the Basilian Order decided that all of its members needed to take a vow of poverty. Right. So they're like, we really think that, you know, what we're doing is best if everyone agrees never to have any money. And Father Coughlin is like, well, I don't see why I need to be poor. And so he leaves.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, he didn't like that, right?

[Brett Goldstein]

Whoa, wait, we're poured out. No, no, no, no, no, no. So he joins a diocesan clergy in Detroit. And his career continued along without incident until 1926, when he was asked to help raise money to build a new parish, Royal Oak St. Therese of Lisu. And he had been interested in the burgeoning new technology of radio for some time and decided to work out a deal with a local station to help him to let him perform a radio show to raise money. Father Coughlin turned out to have a gift for this, and his fundraiser was a huge success, in large part because he doesn't just stick to religion. A big portion of his first broadcasts were dedicated to ranting about the spread of communism in the United States, which he saw in terms very similar to Elizabeth Dilling. In fact, she caught his first broadcast. And Amy Dye suspects it helps to radicalize her that, like, she watches him give this first broadcast when she's getting started as an anti communist activist. And this is a big thing that, like, motivates him. Now, Dilling's anti communism was firstly rooted in her Christian faith. But as time grew on, she grew furious at the fact that most priests and pastors were not like Father Coughlin. As one biographer wrote, she became nauseated by her church's attitude towards communism, had to restrain to herself to avoid being thrown out, and had no time to waste in a church activity. Right. So she's disgusted by the actual churches that she goes to. And she's really drawn to this guy because he's acting the way she thinks every priest ought to be acting. Right. She doesn't understand why every man of faith in her world isn't talking like Father Coughlins. That's a big part of why she loves this guy.

[Katie Stoll]

The guy that refused to take the

[Brett Goldstein]

vow of poverty, that would not take a vow of poverty.

[Katie Stoll]

It's so interesting. Just despite being raised a certain way, although there's plenty of contradictions in how she was raised, but that the Catholic. Just the religious aspect, but, like, no, I know better than the priests. I know better than the church that I've grown up in. I find it distasteful. It's weird.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. I mean, I think it makes sense if you understand that, like, for someone like this, religion is not about what the faith says or even what God says. It's about finding the ultimate boss to back up that whatever your opinion is. Right. You have the ultimate call to authority. That's all that it is to them, really. I think. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Honestly. So one of Liz and Father Coughlin's favorite Bible verses was Matthew 10:34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. I come not sent peace, but a sword. Now, this is. You'll get this, that. Pete Hegseth likes that verse too, by the way. They believed only organized political Christianity could defeat the radical left. By the early 1930s, when Dilling was publishing her most influential books, CBS picked up Coughlin's program, and by the end of 1931, it had more than 40 million listeners. By 1933, the year before the Red Network's publication, Coughlin had 106 clerks to handle the deluge of mail from his fans. In 1935, the radio league of his parish had cashed $4 million in money orders in just 20 months. Coughlin, like Dylan. Yeah. So she's. I mean, yeah, this. This brings in a shitload of money, right?

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Like, Coughlin is famous in a way that almost no one is in this period of time. Unlike Dilling Coughlin was initially a supporter of fdr, right? Not out of any strong political conviction. He certainly doesn't like believe particularly in FDR's politics. But he does believe that he really ought to be involved in a presidential administration. And so in early 1932, he actually meets FDR. And FDR promises, if I get elected, I'll go to you directly for like, advice. You know, I'll ask you for your advice on different things because Coughlin, he has a bunch of things he wants to advise the presidency about. So Coughlin backs FDR because he thinks he's going to have an end to the new administration. And in fact, Father Coughlin invents a couple important catchphrases that help, like sell FDR's campaign, including the New Deal is Christ's deal. But after FDR wins, Roosevelt's like, well, this guy's obviously crazy. Let's block his number. Like, I'm not actually gonna go to him for advice or anything. And Father Coughlin, when he realizes he's been betrayed, loses his mind and begins dedicating himself to attacking the New Deal as godless communism. And this is what's funny to me. Cause Dilling hates FDR from the start. She loves Coughlin from the start, but she always ignores that Coughlin likes FDR when he thinks he's gonna get something out of FDR. Like, she can't square with that.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

In 1946, Coughlin starts a weekly newspaper titled Social justice and used it to attack fdr. He joined with an alliance of anti Roosevelt figures to stop the President's reelection campaign. Campaigning alongside Huey Long, Reverend Gerald L.K. smith, and of course, Elizabeth Dilling. By the late 30s, she'd become almost as in demand a speaker as him and was giving speeches several times a week at women's clubs, veterans clubs, chambers of commerce, and other civic organizations around the country. During the election, she often gave five speeches a day. Now, by this point, she'd become a big enough name that she was taking home 50% of the money she collected during her talks, plus expenses and an honorarium. So she's, she's doing okay, but this still isn't big money by her standards. That said, her motivation to doing this is not financial. Primarily, it's because within the very narrow window of what women ought to be doing that she espoused, this was the path that allowed her the most agency and fame. Right. That she's not breaking the rules in part because she's not taking too much money. But this is like the most. She gets to be out in the world while pretending that she's still holding to her values about that sort of thing.

[Robert Evans]

Is Huey Long. Is that the Kingfish guy?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, it is Huey Long. We gotta talk about Huey. Huey is. Yeah, He's a Louisiana governor who is a fascinating figure.

[Robert Evans]

Dare I say side bastard? Certified side bastard.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, for sure. Sidebar. Well, we're going to. He'll get his episodes one of these days. He's been. There's just a lot to say about old Huey. They don't make him like that anymore in American politics, for better and for worse.

[Robert Evans]

The Kingfish guy. Yeah, I would say so, yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, nobody like Huey. Nobody like Huey. It's a shame. I mean, Huey's last chapter especially. I do wish more politicians would take a leaf out of the end of his career.

[Katie Stoll]

All right, it's time for the bastards on Huey.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah. This ad is brought to you by Veeve Healthcare, the makers of Dovato Dolutegravir Lamivudine. If you're living with HIV, do learn about Dovato. Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devato is right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Dovato is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Dovato.

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It is unknown if Dovato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B if you have Hep B. Don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Devato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy.

[Brett Goldstein]

Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devato.com or call 1-8778-448872.

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[Brett Goldstein]

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[Brett Goldstein]

See Terms this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000Americans and of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. There's a gap between believing in mental health and actually seeking it, and if you personally are looking at closing that gap, BetterHelp is an option you might want to consider. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, Having served over 6 million people globally, and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million clients. Reviews. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs. So don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] behind that's betterhelp.com behind. So Amy Dye's thesis does a good job of describing how Elizabeth evolved as a speaker. Using lessons that she cribbed from Father Coughlin's program as a rubric, Elizabeth Dilling presented her speeches much like Coughlins, full of anguish and hateful words, Elizabeth would incorporate props into her speeches such as Red banners, YWCA songbooks, magazines, pamphlets, and of course, newspapers. Elizabeth would sing songs about the so called red menace and ridiculed it at every opportunity. Her husband Albert would accompany Dilling on the piano and pass out sheet music to provoke the audience. A favorite of the audience attending her speeches was Dilling's impressions of Eleanor Roosevelt. Elizabeth would speak in a Yiddish accent, ridiculing the first lady at every opportunity. Elizabeth's speeches would normally last around two hours and the audience loved every minute of it. The audience sat rapidly, fearing it might miss a good story or important reference. She was always careful to end and often begin her lectures by acknowledging that again, she was, quote, just a woman with a mouth in her words. And true to that, her audiences were never as big as the ones that Coughlin could draw. But she was easily the most famous woman in far right politics for her time. And while a big crowd for her was seldom more than 100 or 200 people, her fans were unusually dedicated. Dilling later recalled, after One lecture, about 50 people from the audience arose to pledge their lives to Jesus as the antidote to communism.

[Matt Altimix]

Wow.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay, yeah, good stuff. Now, while Father Coughlin became his own cottage industry with a vast staff, Elizabeth continued to do all of her own research and writing. She is a one woman shop. Her husband Albert was her only assistant and he helped so often that his real work suffered over time. Despite her strongly stated belief that women should not work and certainly shouldn't be the breadwinner of the family, her work began to make up the bulk of the family income. In 1935, she'd started reaching out to one of the most famous men in Chicago for help. Charles R. Walgreen. What business do we think Charles R. Walgreen was in? Get any guess as to what company he helped started? Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is the CVS guy. You're right, you're right, he's a CVS guy.

[Katie Stoll]

Rite Aid.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah, this is the Rite Aid dude. Yes. Yeah, yeah, man. Who founded 711 Charles All Walgreens.

[Robert Evans]

Passed my mind that Walgreens was named after a person.

[Brett Goldstein]

For sure. Yeah, it's a guy. It's a guy. Starts as a bootlegger if I'm not mistaken, or basically. Cause they needed a way to legally sell people booze during prohibition. And that's where Walgreens got its start. Now, because Walgreens niece attended the University of Chicago, Elizabeth thought that he would be willing to help her launch a war against communism among the school staff. And basically she goes to him and says, do you know how many of these teachers are? In my book, the red network is like card carrying socialists and communist infiltrators. And Walgreen is horrified. And he indeed withdraws his niece from the college when Dilling shows him how any professors were suspected communists. Now one of the men that she accused was Harold Swift, a president of the board of trustees she considered a cream puff type of red quote. One of the millionaires who liked to play around with radicals. So again, this is not like an actual political firebrand. This is like a rich guy who's on like the board of a big university. He's just not a dick. But she says some rich men turn to booze, some to chorus girls and others to communism. When the revolution came, his throat would be slit. And the communism is like, maybe we should pay teachers more and stuff. I have a feeling that's more, more what she's considering that evil position. Yeah. Despite her dire claims, the committee that investigated Swift found no reason to take action against him. But Dilling was regularly successful in ruining careers and launching waves of random hate at people she decided were guilty of communism. And again, there's a lot in common with like the modern anti progressive communist, you know, fucking professor on campus crusade that's especially ignited.

[Katie Stoll]

Sounds like some Laura Loomer type.

[Brett Goldstein]

For real Laura Loomer type. There's Bill Ackman in there, you know,

[Katie Stoll]

some of this fucking, this fear mongering around your universities and the education system.

[Brett Goldstein]

But she's one of the first people on the right to do that in an organized way and doing it in a way that you could all, you could literally just swap the names out. And it's the same way this, this, this reads today when people accuse professors and stuff of this. Yeah. Dilling was regularly successful in ruining people's careers. But like her idol, Father Coughlin, she resolved the greatest effort of her working life for the fight to unseat FDR. In speeches that election, the 1936 election, Dilling told audiences of DAR members and Rotarians that if FDR won re election, there would be zero chance of another free election ever taking place in the United States. And we can see just how right she was.

[Katie Stoll]

God, she was prescient.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, she really, she saw it all coming. That was the end of democracy in America.

[Matt Altimix]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

While Coughlin was clearly a power hungry opportunist willing to bend for the sake of his own influence, Elizabeth pursued her political advocacy with the feverish intensity of a true believer. She didn't just campaign against fdr, she Dedicated herself to finding his replacement. Now, for some reason, she decided the best way to do this was to sabotage the potential candidacy of another man that she saw as just as bad as fdr. So she decides, I have to make sure the right man gets, like, in position to take down fdr. And the best way to do that is to stop another guy I think is even worse from becoming a candidate. And the guy that she sees is even worse is, like, a potential disastrous Republican presidential candidate in 36 is Senator William Bora of Idaho. And her fear was that Senator Bora might win the Republican nomination, which would lead to what she considered a Communist versus Communist general election. Right. If Bora runs against fdr, it's just too communist on the ballot.

[Katie Stoll]

So let's take a look at this

[Brett Goldstein]

Communist Senator Elizabeth dedicated herself to destroying. William Edgar Bora had been born the year the Civil War ended. He grew up in Kansas, but moved to Idaho to practice law before he was elected to the Senate in 1907. He became known as a progressive insurgent against President Taft's policies and fought against both the Treaty of Versailles and turned Calvin Coolidge down when he offered to make Bora his running mate in 1920. Bora was mixed on the New Deal, which is why he decided to run in 1936. But this is also why Dilling saw him as just as bad as fdr, because he's pro New Deal. He just wants it to be somewhat different. Right. And so she's like, he's just still a Communist now. Bora also is supportive of the ACLU and was in favor of extending diplomatic recognition to the ussr, a country that undeniably existed. All this added up to a communist in Liz's book.

[Katie Stoll]

That's no go for her. She's been over there. You can't have diplomatic relations with those heathens. No.

[Brett Goldstein]

You can't acknowledge that they exist, even though they do. It's a very like, we're gonna do this with fucking Taiwan for a huge part of the latter 20th century, where we're just like, no, if you want to talk to China, you have to talk to Taiwan. And some people who are rational be like. But, like, guys, you can feel however you want about the civil war, but, like, Taiwan is obviously not China. There's a whole country. There's millions of people, hundreds of millions of people living in China, governing. We can't just pretend this island speaks for all of them. That's stupid as shit. But we did it for a long time. I love that.

[Katie Stoll]

I'm just gonna

[Robert Evans]

I don't know.

[Brett Goldstein]

I can't hear you. Can't be communist if I don't say so. It's still a czar over there. Shut up.

[Ad Voice]

It's like, grow up.

[Katie Stoll]

La la la la.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's really funny.

[Katie Stoll]

Like children.

[Brett Goldstein]

As Di described from this is Liz talking about Bora. Quote, both the public and the Chicago Tribune would call Bora the idol of Moscow. To sway votes against Bora, Elizabeth wrote a pamphlet entitled Bora from Within. The Grand Old Republic Party distributed 5,000 copies at its national convention in Cleveland. Soon after, Elizabeth started taking credit for denying Bora the presidential nomination. After basking in the glow of Bora's defeat, Elizabeth eyed another presidential nominee whom she deemed as being unworthy. That person would be none other than Kansas Governor Alfred M. Landon. Elizabeth saw Alfred M. Landon as a night clerk trying to appear as a serious candidate for the Oval Office. Due to his apprehension, Landon had a hard time speaking in front of a large crowd. Elizabeth feared that Roosevelt would out talk Landon and therefore FDR would win the presidency. I gotta give Liz credit for one thing, which is she is right. Alfred Landon was a dog candidate for the presidency. Terrible. Especially against Ed fdr. You want to take maybe the man with the greatest natural political instincts who's ever become a president of the United States and you put Alf Landon next to his ass. Okay, yeah, yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

Just anybody that doesn't like speaking in front of crowds.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, the guy who's scared of speaking of crowds to fight FDR in a political cage match. That'll work. That'll work. He's not charismatic. He's not the most beloved man in American politics. So it eventually becomes clear that Landon is going to win the Republican nomination. And so Liz has no choice but to try and help his campaign. Right. So she's like, okay, I wanted to stop him, but he's going to be it. So I have to coax him into seeming competent. This was what would prove to be very difficult for her because she doesn't know Alf Landon. And her incendiary speeches and columns about what Landon should do have the effect of just making him seem worse. Right. She's trying to help the campaign, but all she does is attack him. And it just makes him. It just eats away at his support base even more. The Dillings even name their dog who they find stupid and annoying. Landon. And that fact tells you a lot that like both they named their dog after a guy they hate and also they hate their dog.

[Katie Stoll]

Also, they hate their dog.

[Brett Goldstein]

You don't have to have it you know that, right? Like if you hate the dog, you don't need that doesn't need to be your dog.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah. And you don't have to mock your dog. It's like a kid.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

This is confusing.

[Brett Goldstein]

This is confusing. Weird. I don't understand your choices.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

But again, it was Landon or fdr. So Elizabeth and her husband set to work finding a way to save him from the Jewish people they believed were secretly running his campaign. It was one of their kids. It was like, well, well, Landon's not a great candidate, but all these Jews are running his campaign and that's really hurting him. It's like, nah, man. Alf Landon, like Barack Obama himself could have like injected Alf Landon with the raw essence of his charisma. And the sheer weight of Landon's anti charisma would have drowned out the Obama cells or I don't. You know what I'm getting at, right?

[Katie Stoll]

There is no hope for this man.

[Brett Goldstein]

There's no hope for this man. No one could have made Alf Landon a president. That was simply not possible until Hubert Humphrey. There was never a weaker fucking candidate for the presidency. Yeah. So Albert, her husband, this is Dilling's husband, gets a job with Alf Landon's campaign headquarters in Chicago because again, they know that, well, we don't have any connections to Landon. So if we're going to convince him that we know how he's got to win, we need to get you, Albert. You have to get your foot in the door in the Chicago campaign office. And Landon or Albert does get a job for the Landon campaign, but as soon as he starts work on the first day, he realizes something terrible. Both of his bosses are Jewish men. Think that's gonna work for this guy? Here's Di. She describes what happened next. Elizabeth was convinced that only overconfident executives supported Landon. Elizabeth made this assumption after she and Albert dined with six executives who claimed they did not need to campaign because Landon would win easily. She complained that neither Landon nor Roosevelt discussed the real issue, which was Marx versus Washington. After Roosevelt won and Landon carried only two states, Dilling solace was to say I told you so to the industrialists who had predicted Landon would win. They got what they deserved, she said. Two states, My God, have some fucking self respect, Alf. Honestly, if you had any self respect, the thing to do would be to watch one Roosevelt speech, one of his fucking fireside chats and be like, nah, I don't got this juice. I simply don't have the juice to take this man out. I'm landing no one can blame me for realizing this is beyond my abilities.

[Katie Stoll]

My name's Alf Landon.

[Brett Goldstein]

I'm literally named Alf Landon. You want me to go up against this guy? He doesn't have legs and he's kicking my ass.

[Katie Stoll]

Like, my God, he can run circles around me.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah. Like, Jesus. There's a degree of sympathy you have to have for like, oh, you thought you could beat FDR in 1936. You, you. So Dylan got out of the 36 election with at least more grace than her idol, Father Coughlin. Coughlin had made the mistake of backing a third party, the Union Party. This was an extension of an organization that he had formed earlier that year, the National Union for Social Justice. And just by the way, if you wanna think about like, what a shit show it was when, when Biden dropped out at like the last possible minute and the Democratic Party had to line up behind a single candidate with just a couple of months before the election. Coughlin tries to do that, but with starting a new party in the last year, the year of the election, he's

[Katie Stoll]

overestimating his own influence. Here he is.

[Brett Goldstein]

And again, because Coughlin Dilling loves him, but he's not the same ideologically as her. He is a fascist, but he's not a pro capitalist fascist. There are pro capitalist fascists and there are anti capitalist fascists. And in fact, part of what the Night of Long Knives was one thing that happened in the Night of Long Knives in Nazi Germany, that they got rid of the anti capitalist fascists. But in this day and age, what was the name of this thing?

[Katie Stoll]

The Union for Social Justice.

[Brett Goldstein]

So National Union for Social Justice. And he loves the term not in line with her. It isn't. It isn't Social justice, number one. It means a very different thing to Catholicism in this time than it does when people use the term today. People who use social justice today do not think of it in a religious. Social justice is a Catholic term in this time time in period, it very much is considered one. It's something the church cares a lot about. Right. But cares about from its standpoint. I'm not saying the Catholic church in the 30s is woke in a mock.

[Katie Stoll]

This is. You know what? This is a good clarification for me.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah. But Father Coughlin's Union Party is anti capitalist and anti monopolist. Right. Because anti monopolism is like the big populist interest at the time is like trust busting in the us so if you are populist, you have to be anti monopoly kind of regardless of whether you come down. And that's just the way things work in America at this point in time. So again, the fact this might sound like Coughlin is somewhat on the left, he's not at all. He's just kind of going for the big populist interest at the time, which include a lot of trust busting. And Coughlin does add a shitload of anti Semitism in the mix, which makes it clear that he is still just warming up a chunk of Nazi politics. Right. It's just a slightly different chunk than the one Dilling finds appealing. And, you know, obviously added in this mix, he also puts a lot of hatred of the New Deal. Per an article in the Bentley Historical Society Library of the University of Michigan, quote, the National Union for Social Justice Teams teamed up with Francis Townsend, an activist, and Gerald L K Smith, an organizer and white supremacist, to form the Union Party. The express goal of the Union Party was to unseat roosevelt in the 1936 presidential election. They put forward their own candidate, William Lemke, hoping Lemke could draw enough votes away from Roosevelt to allow Al Flandon, the Republican candidate, to win. So again, they're both trying to get Landon to win, both her and like Dilling and Coughlin, but they're doing it in very different ways. Dilling is trying to support the Republican Party the traditional way. Coughlin is trying to sabotage FDR's campaign by drawing votes away from Roosevelt so that Landon wins. That's what his hope for a third party is, is right. Now, the problem is that Coughlin also, not only does he attach his name to this attempt, he makes a public promise that if the Union party doesn't get 9 million votes in November, he will retire from public life. If I can't bring 9 million votes to Lemke in November, I'll get off the air. You'll never hear from Father Coughlin again. Now, had Father Coughlin moved 9 million votes, that would have been 20% of the total votes cast in 1936, which is a. No one's ever had that kind of popularity. Fucking Joe Rogan could never have claimed 20% of the electorate. Move. Because of his fucking actions, Father Coughlin is not even coming close to this. Right? He fumbles. Historically, the Union Party can't even get a million votes.

[Katie Stoll]

Very funny.

[Brett Goldstein]

Now, because he'd promised, Father Coughlin does briefly quit his radio show, although he comes back like two months later. Something like that.

[Katie Stoll]

I never said I'd go away forever.

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, he says, I said I'd go away forever. And I was going to, but then a friend of mine who just died on his deathbed, his last wish was that I start being on the radio again. What could I do? I'm not gonna say no to my friend's dying wish.

[Robert Evans]

Right, Robert? So against everything Katie and Robert, I promise my dying wish will not be that you do more podcasts.

[Brett Goldstein]

No, Sophie's dying wish was that I get $11 million to spend on heroin. You know, she always said, I hope Robert gets $11 million for heroin.

[Robert Evans]

But I did say always.

[Brett Goldstein]

Did always specified heroin.

[Robert Evans]

$11 million for Robert's joy of choice.

[Brett Goldstein]

That means heroin.

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah, I know. It's very generous of you and your death.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, heroin, it's good for. It's not.

[Robert Evans]

It's not. But it is time. For now.

[Brett Goldstein]

I mean, it's better than today's drive.

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[Brett Goldstein]

Fentanyl these kids are doing is fucking. Heroin's basically Ozembic compared to that shit. Anyway, here's ads this ad is brought to you by Veeve Healthcare, the makers of Dovato Dolutegravir Lamivudine. If you're living with HIV, do learn about Dovato. Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devato is right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Dovato is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Dovato.

[Medical Ad Voice]

It is unknown if Dovato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy.

[Brett Goldstein]

Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devato.com or call 1-877-8448-872.

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World War II with Tom Hanks new episode, Monday at 8. Part of History honors 250 only on the History Channel.

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[Brett Goldstein]

We're back. Probably shouldn't be comparing heroin to Ozembic. We still want to get that sweet, sweet Ozembic money. Oh, Zimbic. I don't know much about whether or not it's good for you, actually. So I feel weird about advertising it

[Katie Stoll]

so we stay neutral around here.

[Brett Goldstein]

Seems like we need more longitudinal data before I'm gonna be doing that. Sometimes it's like, I'm not against it. I don't understand.

[Robert Evans]

I'm not against drugs that help people. I'm against advertising drugs that I can't vouch for.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't know. Like, dick pills are one thing. I just worry about, like, like encouraging everyone to take that when we don't know enough about it yet.

[Robert Evans]

We also, like, don't do hair loss drugs ads because we know that doesn't work.

[Brett Goldstein]

Like, no, no, I think it does. Now is the, the weird. Like, I don't. I didn't want to do hair loss ads because, like when I was a kid, Alex, Joe, like, that was always the thing that meant something was shady. But I think like the a. There are actual hair loss solutions now that are like. But I'm not super knowledgeable about that world, as you can tell by my head of hair.

[Robert Evans]

Like, what's that? Like Minoxidil or whatever?

[Katie Stoll]

Minoxidil?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. I think it is real, right? Like there are real Stuff now. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. Do whatever you want. Your gender affirming care is your gender affirming care. Just look at it that way.

[Katie Stoll]

Hell, yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's what a baldness cure is for. Men.

[Katie Stoll]

Just don't blame me.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, that's what testosterone supplements are for. You know, like fucking RFK Jr who wants to stay swole in his 60s even though he can't fucking do a proper bench press. My God, man. Like, Jesus. Sorry.

[Katie Stoll]

An embarrassment. No, that's a fun tangent.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. So Father Coughlin quits his radio show and then he's like, oh, my friend's dying wish was that I would be racist on the radio one last time. So he goes back. But Coughlin can't go back to the simple life of a radio priest who made anti Semitic propaganda anymore. He's got the politics bug now and he can't quit. So he starts complaining on the air that the Vatican has been infiltrated by communist agents. Now, here's the thing.

[Narrator]

Thing.

[Brett Goldstein]

I'm not an expert on Catholicism, but my understanding of the way it works is that if you are a Catholic priest, the Pope is your boss. And like any employment situation, you're not supposed to just, like, get out in front of the media and say, my boss is being manipulated by communists secretly. Your boss might get pissed at you. Cause you're not supposed to be talking shit like that. You're a subordinate to the Pope. Right. And to these other. Anyway. Anyway, Father Coughlin is getting out of pocket and he's pissing off the rest of the Catholic hierarchy. And he is accountable to that hierarchy. He's not a free agent. No Catholic priest is. If they want to continue being a Catholic priest, it's kind of an important fact about how Catholicism works. So this sparks a chain of events that leads to Father Coughlin having his operating permit revoked and being taken off the air for another few months. And when he's taken off the air for the second time, Elizabeth Dilling feels his loss keenly. She was convinced that her fave had only suffered. So because Communist agents had infiltrated the United States, she formed the Patriotic Research Bureau, an organization dedicated to clearing Father Coughlin's name. She was its only member and put out a monthly bulletin to her mailing list. As always, she solicited donation. No, I mean, she has a lot of readers.

[Matt Altimix]

She's the only.

[Brett Goldstein]

Like, okay, yeah. And she solicits donations because she's got all these. Like, anyone who's ever been interested in her, she has their address and she'll just mail Them shit. And if they want to send her money, they'll send money back. And that's kind of what keeps her going. It's a proto Patreon type thing. Right?

[Katie Stoll]

I was gonna say a little Patreon.

[Brett Goldstein]

Exactly. Dilling herself was very open about the small donations that kept her in business. And when you read her description of the things that fans sent her, it does sound weirdly like a modern, like, right wing crowdfunding kind of deal. Quote, one woman who's in, and this is Liz talking, one woman whose income was $40 a month and he was going blind, sold a hundred dollar bond for $77 and sent 75 to Dilling. An El who worked as a cement mixer, sent her $100 and left everything he owned to Dylan and his will. Right. This is kind of how she should

[Katie Stoll]

be ashamed of herself.

[Brett Goldstein]

Puts out what people are. Right. Because this is partly advertising. Exactly what you're saying. Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

No, no. Sorry.

[Brett Goldstein]

She interjected to this is shameful. The reason she's saying it this way is that, like, so if you're sick and going blind and only have a little bit of money, you should send it to me because, you know, you care about this country. Right. Give me everything you've got.

[Tom Hanks (Ad Voice)]

Got.

[Brett Goldstein]

You know, it is very much like that. Give till it hurts. Evangelical impulse.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

Cleanse your soul by giving me all your money.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's right. That's right. So, yeah, she urged her Catholic followers. One of the other things I find funny. So she's not just soliciting for donations in a really modern, crowdfunding way. She's attempting to, like, weaponize and turn her audience into a tool for her activism in a very modern way. She starts urging her readers who are Catholics to send letters to the Vatican, to flood the Vatican with letters. And a number of them do because she prints a form letter with, like, her monthly issue of the Bulletin that they could just fill out and send to the Vatican. This form letter read, quote, holy Father, we plead for our Father Coughlin. Have him continue his radio broadcast in the same heartfelt way. Not in censored platitudes which defeat the dignity God bestowed on man, but as an alter Christus, fearless and outspoken, going about doing his Father's business, spreading the doctrine of the mystical body, a brotherhood of man with the fatherhood in God, to confute the atheist, communism and other godless isms to continue to espouse the cause of the poor. For the rich have ample means. Holy Father, many of us were tricked by artful propaganda but now we humbly ask your holiness to give us back our Father Coughlin, as he should be, free and unrestrained in preaching the doctrine of Christ to the poor and to all who will listen. So that's the form letter she puts together for these people. And today I don't think the Vatican would respond to a handful of form letters being sent from some American pranks. But this was the least late 30s. The idea that American Catholics could write letters and have them reliably reach the Vatican in just a couple weeks, that's a pretty new idea in the 1930s. Random people have not been able to just send a letter to the Vatican for a very long time. That's a really new concept. And the church has zero experience dealing with a fan write in campaign. No one really has experience with fan write in campaigns. And that's what this amounted to. If you want to know, like, why Star Trek is a thing, it's because they organized after Star Trek got canceled. The original series, one of the first fan write in campaigns. And like, no one had been. I mean, technically there had been some things like that before, but it hadn't really ever happened before. And so for the first time, watch a studio suit. See like fans sending in letters about a show and are like, wait a second, is there money in this? You know, Right. Like, and it's a similar thing here where like the Vatican is like, whoa, this must really mean A lot of people are pissed off at what we've did. If four or five letters have showed up in the Vatican.

[Katie Stoll]

Four or five letters showed up in the van.

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't know how many show up exactly.

[Katie Stoll]

Represent every amount.

[Brett Goldstein]

Right. Seems like a lot back then. Cause the church has no experience dealing with this sort of shit. So the Pope folds, or at least someone in the Vatican folds. And By December of 1937, it was okay for Father Coughlin to take to the airwaves again in January of 1938. Everyone was thrilled when he returned. And in short order, he forms a fascist club called the Christian Front, which kind of sounds like a militia in that it describes itself like Father Coughlin described it, as a literal crusade against anti Christian elements in American culture.

[Katie Stoll]

Is it not a militia? Did somebody borrow that?

[Brett Goldstein]

It kind of was, I think.

[Katie Stoll]

Okay,

[Brett Goldstein]

he was on the edge of trying to frame it as a militia, sure. But he has to kind of pull back on this because not long after he introduces the Christian front in 1938, Kristallnacht happens like the Nazis do. Kristallnacht in Germany. And there's mobile breaking, burning synagogues, breaking Jewish buildings, murdering people in the street. All sorts of horrific shit. And the world's conscience is shocked. This is widely reported on, and people are horrified in part because folks like Elizabeth Dilling had been saying, there's no racism in Nazi Germany. They're just having to defend themselves periodically against the violence of the Jews. But it's entirely defensive. And this Kristallnacht makes it impossible to continue that lie. Right afterwards, the owner of Coughlin's main station demanded to take an early look at the script for his next broadcast. Like the day after Kristallnacht, this guy's like, we need to look at what he's gonna put out before we let that hit the air.

[Katie Stoll]

Probably smart.

[Brett Goldstein]

And sure enough, he finds the script filled with angry and insane allegations against the Jewish people, and he demanded changes. Father Coughlin did alter the script, but in his final broadcast he still claimed that Kristallnacht hadn't been anyone's fault, really. Or at least it hadn't been any Christian's fault. And so it wasn't something any Americans should concern themselves over. His attitude was more like, this was just a natural reaction in part because of all the bad things the Jews have done. But, you know, to whatever you could blame maybe the government of Germany for, it has nothing to do with Christianity and it's nothing Americans should be concerned by. And you shouldn't feel bad for these Jews, really. You know, that's kind of his attitude. He's a massive piece of shit. He's one of the worst people who ever lived. Now this makes a lot of people very angry, but not Liz Dilling. She fucking loves Father Kauf, of course. However, she soon had to devote her time to less enjoyable Things. Things. The 1940 elections were coming up and once again, Dilling intended to do her part to replace FDR with a proper nationalists. The fact that another world war was obviously coming made the concern even more immediate. Elizabeth couldn't bear to see the United States oppose Nazi Germany. In 1938, she actually visited Germany, attending the Nuremberg rally that year and loving it. She goes to a fucking Nuremberg rally? Liz Dilling. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

She.

[Brett Goldstein]

She could not be just the Naziest Nazi, whoever Nazi. This lady.

[Narrator]

Jesus.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's very funny. One of my favorite things, because Liz Dilling, her. Her writing is still somewhat popular among the far right today. In fact, in like 2011 or so, fucking Glenn Beck quoted her on his show and tried to get people to read. I think it was the Red Network, so she periodically comes back up. But you can find her writing on like outright neo Nazi websites. And I've read some articles from actual modern Nazis who will criticize her by being like, she didn't actually know anything about National Socialist ideology. Like she was not knowledgeable about the tenets of National Socialism. And they're right about this. Like Liz, I know more about Nazism than Liz Dilling ever did. Right. Like she, she is not well read about what the Nazis believe because all that matters to her is that they hate the Jews and the Communists. Communists, right. Like that's. And that's what really matters about Nazism, you know, so Liz was never a Nazi in the sense that she actually understood a lot of what Hitler wanted, but she was a Nazi in the more important sense that she understood all that Hitler really needed her to understand about him, which is, you know, these people hate Jews and communists. Right? You know, that's it. After World War II started in 1939, agents of the German state in the US tried to use Liz as a voice voice and she was invited to speak at the German American boon gatherings that year while she extolled the virtues of the Germany that she had briefly seen. As the next presidential election wound closer, Liz again readied herself for feverish activity. Unfortunately, there were again no Republicans. Her met with her approval. Thomas Dewey had prosecuted the leader of the German American boon. And Robert A. Taft had worked for the AFL as a lawyer. Arthur Vandenberg a conservative Mission Michigan senator Dilling otherwise liked backed the hated New Deal. Bereft of hope, Elizabeth penned an essay about her breathless desire for a presidential man on a white horse. This is like one of the very first, and you'll see bits of this today like, like American conservatives yearning for like an American Pinochet or an American Caesar. Elizabeth's the first person to really write this out in a very direct way where she says, God, all we need is our own sexy, charismatic fascist. If only we had a hit Hitler. That's really. She's the first right winger in America to write an if only we had a Hitler piece. And I'm going to quote from Dye's thesis here. She proclaimed in her essay that there had to be a better candidate out there who could defeat Roosevelt. Elizabeth encouraged the Democratic nominee to step forward and let it be known that he could end communism single handedly. The public enjoyed her so much that they felt encouraged to take up arms and look for a better presidential candidate. Eventually, Elizabeth came to terms as she did in the 1936 election that she must support the candidate who opposed Roosevelt without any type of enthusiasm. Dilling supported Wendell L. Wilkie for president and this doesn't work. You know, the situation is about as dire as it can be for Liz. You know, democracy's hanging in the balance and so Elizabeth knows what she has to do. The only thing that could possibly defeat FDR's political machine and save the United States, she has to write a book so racist she can only publish it under a suit them. It's the only way to win. It's the only way to save America. Something I can't put it out under my own name. Yeah, I gotta hunker down and write a book so racist that in 1940 I don't feel safe putting my name as a white woman on it.

[Katie Stoll]

Beautiful, perfect, no notes. Also the self hatred in that as well of people will take it more seriously under some other name. Probably. I'm assuming she chose a man's name.

[Brett Goldstein]

Wow. Yes. Yes.

[Katie Stoll]

Did I choose. Yeah, okay. I'm assuming correctly.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

So the Octopus was billed as an expose of the shadowy network of influence behind the New Deal in Roosevelt. Now when you hear Octopus and the title of something written by an anti Semite. Anyone who knows their Nazi political cartoons thinks of this image. Sophie's gonna put it on screen right now. There's a few versions of this political cartoon, but these are all political cartoons from Nazi Germany that feature usually like a globe and then an octopus that's like reaching its tentacles out over the world. And there's like a Star of David on the octopus's head or over the octopus. And the octopus has a face that's like a caricature of a Jewish man. Sometimes There's a few variants of this, you'll see. Right, but it's like octopus, an octopus meant to sort of represent the extensive Jewish conspiracy. Right?

[Katie Stoll]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

So Dilling's book, the Octopus was in fact so racist that the name, the fake name she picked, she can't just go with even a normal fake name. She has to make it the fake name of a religious leader so that maybe people won't find it as racist. So her pseudonym is the Reverend Frank Woodruff Johnson.

[Tom Hanks (Ad Voice)]

Okay.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

That'll make people ignore the racism.

[Robert Evans]

That'll do.

[Brett Goldstein]

Reverend Frank Woodruff Johnson, as Di explains, quote, when people wrote to Dylan with questions about the Jewish faith, she often referred them to Johnson's fine book the Jews can never Prove that I'm anti Semitic. She said I'm too clever for. For them. I think. I think I Might be able to prove you're anti Semitic. That sentence, for example, does a good job alone.

[Katie Stoll]

Does it?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah, that really, that's really all

[Robert Evans]

I got to do.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. That's the Bechdel cast for anti Semitism right there. The Bechtel test. Yeah. Dilling arranged for Hudson, a Jew baiting pamphleteer in Omaha, Nebraska, to distribute her book for an idea of how bad the book was. I'm just going to read you one brief snippet from the text. Did Americans get a truthful impression from the press about the communist socialist anarchist church burning Spanish government strongly favored by Jewry? This is her part of her talking about like during the Spanish Civil War, how like the, like anarchists and kind of left wing elements would like light Catholic churches on fire because in part they were also opposing the Catholic Church was backing the Francoist regime. And she's divorcing all of that from its historical context and just saying the Jews did it.

[Katie Stoll]

The Jews did it.

[Brett Goldstein]

The Jews burnt all the churches.

[Robert Evans]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

And also just that like the church burning's favored by Jewry. We took a poll and they all love it. In a shock turn of events, the Octopus was not a bestseller and did not impact the election in any way. The United States entered World War II no matter how much Father Coughlin and Liz Dilling shouted that it shouldn't. Liz was also an active member of the America First Committee and helped to found the Mothers Movement, which was a protest campaign that was like a last minute attempt to try to shame America into not entering the war against the Nazis. And here's how Lillian Greenwald describes the Mother's Movement. That, that this is like kind of her last big hurrah at trying to create a political movement. Here's how Lillian Greenwald describes the protests that they took part in in 1941. This was for an article on fascism in America. Under Ms. Dilling's guidance, the mothers promptly went on a rampage. While Congress was considering matters of grave importance to our national destiny, they were exploiting all the techniques of mass with a few womanly frills of their own. They deluged Congressmen with pleas, threats, imprecations and cajolery by way of letters, telegrams, petitions and personal visits. Alternatively, as it suited their purpose, they dabbed genteel at their eyes with delicate white handkerchiefs or howled lustily in burlesque heartbreak. In August of 1940, more than 100 Detroit and Cleveland mothers descended on Washington where in a Roman holiday spirit, they hanged Senator Claude Pepper in effigy. Later, swathed in funeral garments, they established a death watch over the Senate while it debated the conscription bill. The mothers were excluded from the Senate but allowed to use the Senate reception hall. Their major coup was the Mother's Crusade against 1776, a demonstration which sought to prevent the passage of the Lynn Lease bill in February to March 1941, marshaled by Ms. Dilling with Charles B. Hudson, editor of the rabid anti Semitic dope sheet America in Danger, stage managing behind the scenes, about 500 embattled mothers stormed the halls of Congress.

[Katie Stoll]

Wow.

[Brett Goldstein]

So, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of

[Katie Stoll]

histrionics and theatrical plays there.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

Ooh.

[Brett Goldstein]

And she's just trying, hoping. No one can critique a mother for being concerned about their sons dying. You know, and using that to like, if you're not concerned about people dying, you're concerned about people stopping Hitler. That's what this is about.

[Katie Stoll]

You don't actually care about their sons fighting in a war at all. You just don't want.

[Brett Goldstein]

And there's, there's a beautiful moment. You can tell how much this pisses people off. Senator Carter Glass, who's like a Southern senator and is like this very much like a Southern hospitality politest kind of. You're never supposed to be like rude, especially to women in public. He gets, he gets asked about these protests and he's like, I believe it would be pertinent to inquire whether they are mothers. I don't believe these are moms. Check it out.

[Katie Stoll]

Great quote.

[Brett Goldstein]

Once the US entered World War II, Dylan continued to speak out against it, decrying rationing and blaming the Jews for everything. She was ultimately charged under the Smith act for sedition in July of 1942. Oh, this was part of the unfortunately short lived Brown Scare in which the federal government briefly turned its efforts to finding and prosecuting fascist sympathizers. The resulting trial, USB Winrod included 26 defense defendants. And Dilling lost top billing to another fascist we've discussed on this show. She denied trying to incite a mutiny in the armed forces by distributing fascist propaganda. And in 1944, the case expanded to charging the defendants for their involvement in a worldwide Nazi movement. The charges were dismissed in 1946 because the evidence that they'd actually violated US law was pretty weak. Unfortunately, the long term effect of the Brown Scare was, per Christine Eric Erickson, to give a government stamp of approval for targeting unpopular dissidents who agree disagreed with the political status quo, thereby helping to set the stage from the carthy witch hunt and that they Did. Right. The Brown Scare doesn't amount to much. The Red Scare uses the Brown Scare. Some of the precedent had set to go after the opposite kind of people. Elizabeth Dilling's work was cited during the Red scare by Joseph McCarthy repeatedly. And in the post war period, she predictably became a vociferous Holocaust denier. Not super shocking, right?

[Katie Stoll]

Not shocking at all.

[Brett Goldstein]

Good stuff.

[Katie Stoll]

Oh, God, everything's so depressing again. How little things change.

[Brett Goldstein]

All of these changes.

[Narrator]

Yep.

[Ad Voice]

Predictable.

[Robert Evans]

Everything's dumb. I've heard that before.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

A Holocaust denier.

[Robert Evans]

Okay.

[Brett Goldstein]

Holocaust denier. Yeah. She gets into that growth industry.

[Katie Stoll]

I certainly understand at this point in time how. Actually, I don't really understand how people can be Holocaust deniers. I don't. But I understand that they are at this point.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's convenient, however. It's convenient.

[Katie Stoll]

Immediately after the Holocaust. How does Holocaust denial land with people? Not good.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's convenient.

[Katie Stoll]

Convenient.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's easy. Yeah. It's convenient. It's easy. Yeah. Most of her life is not that interesting after this point. She does write a book even more racist than the Octopus, which you can still find in Nazi bookstores and telegram channels to this day. Day.

[Katie Stoll]

Is it called Even more racist than the Octopus?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, Even More racist than the Octopus. Racist and even more racist. There are two books. One of her favorite conspiracy theories later in life is that Eisenhower, Dwight Eisenhower was a secret Jew. He's. He's hiding it.

[Katie Stoll]

Okay.

[Brett Goldstein]

He's keeping it hidden.

[Katie Stoll]

Oh, the secret Jew thing.

[Brett Goldstein]

Secretly Jewish. Yeah. She also include JFK's new frontier of being the Jew frontier. So, you know, great. Real creative. At the end of her life, she

[Katie Stoll]

seriously would kill on Twitter these days.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. By the end of her days, Liz couldn't even support Barry Goldwater because his running mate had been a prosecutor at Nuremberg. She's too much of a fascist for Barry Goldwater.

[Matt Altimix]

Wow.

[Robert Evans]

You know what's cool, though?

[Katie Stoll]

Hateful person.

[Robert Evans]

Do you guys know what's really cool though?

[Brett Goldstein]

She's dead.

[Matt Altimix]

That whole day.

[Brett Goldstein]

She is dead. She dies April 30, 1960, in Lincoln, Nebraska. Yep.

[Robert Evans]

Hope it hurt.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Fingers crossed.

[Katie Stoll]

Geez.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yep.

[Katie Stoll]

Liz, I just flipped my pencil.

[Robert Evans]

I know.

[Katie Stoll]

I saw frustration.

[BetterHelp Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Robert Evans]

I saw Katie getting angrier and angrier.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. It's frustrating.

[Katie Stoll]

But she is dead, so there is that. But it does feel like her spirit lives on in far too many people.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yep.

[Katie Stoll]

And it's. It is depressing always.

[Robert Evans]

Yep.

[Katie Stoll]

To see how little has changed. The attacks, the phrasing of the attacks, the lies. Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yep. Yeah, it's cool. I love it. Well, Katie, where can people find you online?

[Katie Stoll]

Thank you for asking. You can find me over at some More News and even more News. We do a few shows a week with Cody John Johnston. We've got a Patreon.

[Robert Evans]

I love that guy.

[Katie Stoll]

We do live streams sometimes now. Getting the hang of it. Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. It's new, it's different. I don't know how people do it every day.

[Matt Altimix]

Yeah.

[Katie Stoll]

But it feels like a party. So check us out, look at our socials and you'll see when we're live streaming and it's fun.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yep.

[Narrator]

Yay.

[Robert Evans]

Cool.

[Brett Goldstein]

We'll check that out. And yeah, check out this podcast next week when we'll have someone else for you. You know, hopefully who isn't this person. Definitely who isn't this person. But I don't know who it'll be. I can't read the feature.

[Katie Stoll]

I don't know. I would come back.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. What is this? My podcast.

[Katie Stoll]

Oh, wait.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Tom Hanks (Ad Voice)]

All right.

[Robert Evans]

Well, kind of.

[Brett Goldstein]

We're done. Anyone go. Go away.

[Ad Voice]

Bye.

[Robert Evans]

Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, Visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, YouTube.com BehindTheBastards we love about 40% of you. Statistically speaking,

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[Narrator]

The Second World War is the largest event in human history.

[Tom Hanks (Ad Voice)]

A 20 part documentary series with Tom Hanks.

[Narrator]

No part of the globe was untouched, no life unchanged.

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[Narrator]

Every single person had a story. These are the stories that make us who we are.

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[Brett Goldstein]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.