David Bourie (7:56)

They're here to eat.

Robert Evans (7:58)

And to be fair, this is an extremely common way that people in Japan feel about fish, even whales and dolphins. Like the much more intelligent, they're not fish, but the much more intelligent ocean going creatures. It's like they're fish, they don't think you do whatever to them. This is a reason for a Lot of the really fucked up stuff with whaling fleets in that part of the world. This is a thing all over the planet. People are very good at deciding certain things we want to eat are machines that don't feel anything. You know, it's just much more comfortable that way. Now, this is obviously like, you go into, like the pagans would have been like, what do you mean? Animals don't think or have souls. Animals think, you know, you're telling me, like my horse that I love doesn't think. You know, that's nonsense. But it's this thing that in, like, early modernity especially gets more common. But they're also. This is when we start to have debates about, like, what is sentience and what is thinking. And a lot of them are centered around trying to answer, like, are animals sentient? And the initial definition of sentience that most of these people are using is can it reason? Can it speak? If we can't prove that, like, a dog or a cow can reason, and if it can't speak to us right, then it's not sentient. That's how a lot of people feel. It's an English philosopher named Jeremy Bentham who first argues, I think, that what matters isn't can it reason or can it speak, but can it suffer? Because a machine can't suffer. If these are machines with meat, they can't suffer. If these can suffer, they're not machines with meat. Right? And this is the kind of thing, how we define sentience is a moving thing. Like, you can find different definitions of it. But the last couple of decades, in particular, of actually very good data has made it clear, I think, inarguably, that basically every living thing on this planet has a degree of what you would call sentience. If you are describing sentience the way it generally is now, which is a creature has the capacity for subjective experience with a positive or negative valence, that is, can feel pain or pleasure and also can feel it as an individual. Right? It doesn't mean sometimes people use the term effective sentience to refer to this, to differentiate it from being able to reason and make moral decisions. For example, ants, I don't think can make moral decisions in any way that we would recognize. They certainly don't think about stuff that way. But 2025 research published by Dr. Volker Nehring found evidence that ants are capable of remembering for long periods of time violent encounters they have with other individual ants and holding grudges against those ants. Right?

David Bourie (10:56)

Just like us.

Robert Evans (10:57)

They're just like us. And there's strong evidence that ants do feel pain. Right. We're now pretty sure of that. And in fact, again, this is an argument that a number of researchers in this space will make. Sentience is probably some kind. Something like this kind of sentience, the ability to have subjective positive and negative experiences is universal to living things or very close to it. Right. It's an interesting body of research, but it's fairly solid at this point. And again, I say this as somebody who, like, hunts and raises livestock. I don't think there's any solid reason to disagree with this. So you can see there's a basis to a lot of what Thomas is saying. Right. Which is that what matters is reducing the overall amount of suffering in the world. And if you're looking at suffering as a mass, if you're just adding up all of the bad things experienced by all of the living things, animal suffering is a lot of the suffering. So if our goal is to reduce suffering, animal welfare is hugely important. Right.

David Bourie (11:57)

It's a great place to start.

Robert Evans (11:58)

Great. Fine. Enough. You know, a little bit of a weird way to phrase it, but fine. Yeah. So here's the problem though. Tomasic, like, all these guys spends too much time. None of them can be like, hey, had a good thought. We're done setting that thought down. Moving on. So he keeps thinking about shit like this, and it leads him to some very irrational takes. For example, in 2014, Tomassic starts arguing that it might be immoral to kill characters in video games. And I'm going to quote from an article in Vox, he argues that while NPCs do not have anywhere near the mental complexity of animals, the difference is one of degree rather than kind, and we should care at least a tiny amount about their suffering, especially as they grow more complex. And his argument is that, like, yeah, most, it doesn't matter, like individually killing a Goomba or a bat or a guy in GTA 5, but, like, because they're getting more complicated and able to, like, try to avoid injury and stuff, there's evidence that there's some sort of suffering there. And thus the sheer mass of NPCs being killed, that might be, like, enough that it's ethically relevant to consider. And I think that's silly. Yes. I think that's ridiculous.

David Bourie (13:15)

Come on, man.

Robert Evans (13:16)

I'm sorry, man. No, I'm sorry.

David Bourie (13:21)

I hate to do this guy, but that's a lot of the fun of the game, killing the NPCs.

Robert Evans (13:26)

If you're telling me, like, we need to be deeply concerned about the Welfare of, like, cows that we lock into factory farms. You got me? Absolutely. For sure. If you're telling me I should feel bad about running down a bunch of cops in grand Theft auto.

David Bourie (13:42)

It'S also one of those things where it's like, you got to think locally, man. There's people on your street who need help.

Robert Evans (13:47)

There's, there's like, there's like, this is, this is the. I mean, and he does say, like, I don't consider this a main problem, but, like, the fact that you think this is a problem is. It means that you believe silly things about consciousness. Yeah. Anyway, so this is, I think the fact that he gets, he leads himself here is kind of evidence of the sort of logical fractures that are very common in this community. But this is the guy that young Ziz is drawn to. She loves this dude, right? He is kind of her first intellectual heartthrob. And she writes, quote, my primary concern upon learning about the singularity was how do I make this benefit all sentient life, not just humans? So she gets interested in this idea of the singularity. It's inevitable that an AI God is going to arise. And she gets into the, you know, the rationalist thing of we have to make sure that this is a nice AI rather than a mean one. But she has this other thing to it, which is this AI has to care as much as I do about animal life, right. Otherwise we're not really making the world better, you know. Now Tomasic advises her to check out Less wrong, which is how Ziz starts reading Elisa Yudkowski's work from there. In 2012, she starts reading up on effective altruism and existential risk, which is a term that means the risk that a super intelligent AI will kill us all. She starts believing in, you know, all of this kind of stuff. And her particular belief is that, like, the singularity, when it happens, is going to occur in a flash, kind of like the rapture, and almost immediately lead to the creation of either a hell or a heaven. Right? And this will be done by the term they use for this inevitable AI is the singleton, right? That's what they call the AI God that's going to come about, right? And so her obsession is that she has to find a way to make the singleton a nice AI that cares about animals as much as it cares about people, right? That's her initial big motivation. So she starts emailing Thomasek with her concerns because she's worried that the other rationalists aren't vegans, right? And they don't Feel like animal welfare is like the top priority for making sure this AI is good. And she really wants to convert this whole community to veganism in order to ensure that the singleton is as focused on insect and animal welfare as human welfare. And Tamasic does care about animal rights, but he disagrees with her because he's like, no, what matters is maximizing the reduction of suffering. And like, a good singleton will solve climate change and shit, which will be better for the animals. And if we focus on trying to convert everybody in this, the rationalist space to veganism, it's going to stop us from accomplishing these bigger goals. Right. This is shattering to Ziz. Right. She decides that he doesn't. Tamasek doesn't care about good things. And she decides that she's basically alone in her values. And so her first move, the time.

David Bourie (16:47)

To start a smaller subculture.

Robert Evans (16:49)

That sounds like we're on our way. She, she first considers embracing what she calls negative utilitarianism. And this is an example of the fact that from the jump, this is a, A young woman who's not well. Right. Because once her hero is like, I don't know if veganism is necessarily the priority we have to embrace right now. Her immediate goal is to jump to, well, maybe what I should do is optimize myself to cause as much harm to humanity and quote, destroy the world to prevent it from becoming hell for mostly everyone. So that's a jump, you know, that's not somebody who's doing well, you think is healthy, right?

David Bourie (17:33)

No, she's. She's having a tough time out here.

Robert Evans (17:36)

Huh? So Ziz does ultimately decide she should still work to bring about a nice AI, even though that necessitates working with people she describes as flesh eating monsters who had created hell on earth for far more people than those they had helped. That's everybody who eats meat. Okay. Yes, yes. And it's ironic.

David Bourie (17:57)

Large group.

Robert Evans (17:58)

It's ironic because like, if you're. She really wants to be in the tech industry. She's trying to get. And all these people are in the tech industry. That's a pretty good description of a lot of the tech industry. Yeah. They are in fact flesh eating monsters who have created hell on earth for more people than they've helped. But she means that for like, I don't know, your aunt who has a hamburger once a week and look again, factory farming evil. I just don't think that's how morality works. I think you're going a little far.

David Bourie (18:27)

No, she's making big jumps.

Robert Evans (18:29)

Yeah. You're making bold thinker, bold thinkers. Bold thinker, yeah. Now what you see here with this logic is that Ziz has taken this. She has a massive case of main character syndrome. Right. All of this is based in her attitude that I have to save the universe by creating, by helping to, or figuring out how to create an AI that can end the eternal holocaust of all animal life and also save humanity. Right. That's a lot on our shoulders. That's me.

David Bourie (19:00)

It's a lot on our shoulders.

Robert Evans (19:01)

And this is a thing again, all of this comes out of both subcultural aspects and aspects of American culture. One major problem that we have in this society is Hollywood has trained us all on a diet of movies with main characters that are the special boy or the special girl with the special powers who save the day. Right.

David Bourie (19:24)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (19:24)

And real life doesn't work that way very often. Right. The Nazis, there was no special boy who stopped the Nazis. There were a lot of farm boys who were just like, I guess I'll go run in a machine gun nest until this is done. Exactly. There were a lot of 16 year old Russians who were like, guess I'm gonna walk in a bullet. You know, like that's how evil gets fought usually. Unfortunately, a lot of reluctant like, ah, yeah. Or a shitload of guys in a lab figuring out how to make corn that has higher yields so people don't starve. Right. These are really like how world class, like huge world problems get solved.

David Bourie (20:05)

It's not traditionally people who have been touched, you know.

Robert Evans (20:08)

Yeah. It's not people who have been touched and it's certainly not people who have entirely based their understanding on the world from quotes from Star wars and Harry Potter. So now some of this comes from just like this is a normal deranged way of thinking that happens to a lot of people in just Western. I think a lot of this leads to why you get very comfortable middle class people joining these very aggressive fascist movements in the west, like in Germany, it's like middle class people mostly like middle class and upper middle class people. In the US Especially among like these street fighting, you know, proud boy types. It's because it's not because they're like suffering and desperate. They're not starving in the streets. It's because they're bored and they want to feel like they're fighting an epic war against evil.

David Bourie (21:00)

Yeah. I mean, you want to fill your time with importance. Right?

Robert Evans (21:03)

Right.

David Bourie (21:03)

Regardless of what you do. And you want to feel like you have a cause worthy of fighting for. So in that I guess I see how you got here.

Robert Evans (21:11)

Yeah. So there's a piece, I mean, I think there's a piece of this that originally it's just from. This is something in our culture. But there's also a major chunk of this gets supercharged by the kind of thinking that's common in EA and rationalist spaces. Because so rationalists and effective altruists are not ever thinking like, hey, how do we as a species fix these major problems, right? They're thinking, how do I make myself better, optimize myself to be incredible? And how do I fix the major problems of the world alongside my mentally superpowered friends? Right? These are very individual, focused philosophers, philosophies and attitudes, right? And so they do lend themselves to people who think that like, we are heroes who are uniquely empowered to save the world. Ziz writes, I did not trust most humans indifference to build a net positive cosmos, even in the absence of a technological convenience to prey on animals. So, like, I'm the only one who has the mental capability to actually create the net positive cosmos that needs to come into being. All of her discussion is talking in terms of I'm saving the universe, right? And a lot of that does come out of the way. Many of these people talk on the Internet about the stakes of AI and just like the importance of rationality, again, this is something Scientology does. L. Ron Hubbard always couched getting people on dianetics in terms of we are going to save the world and end war, right? Like, this is, you know, it's very normal for cult stuff. She starts reading around this time when she's in college. Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. This helps to solidify her feelings of her own centrality as a hero figure. In a blog post where she lays out her intellectual journey, she quotes a line from that fanfic of Yudkowski's that is, it's essentially about what Yudkowsky calls the hero contract, right? Or sorry, it's essentially about this concept called the hero contract, right? And there's this. This is a psychological concept among academics, right? Where. And it's about like, it's about. About analyzing how we as a, how we should look at the people who societies declare heroes and the communities that declare them heroes and see them as in a dialogue, right? As in when a country decides this guy's a hero, he is through his actions, kind of conversing to them and they are kind of telling him what they expect from him, right? But Yudkowski wrestles with this concept, right? And he comes to Some very weird conclusions about it. In one of the worst articles that I've ever read, he frames it as hero licensing to refer to the fact that, that people get angry at you if they don't think you have if you're trying to do something and they don't think you have a hero license to do it. In other words, if you're trying to do something that they don't think you're qualified to do, he'll describe that as them not thinking of a hero license. He writes this annoying article that's a conversation between him and a person who's supposed to embody the community of people who don't think he should write Harry Potter fan fiction. It's all very silly. Again, all is, is ridiculous. But Ziz is very interested in the idea of the hero contract, right? But she comes up with her own spin on it, which she calls the true hero contract, right? And instead of again, the academic term is the hero contract means societies and communities pick heroes. And those heroes and the community that they're in are in a constant dialogue with each other about what is heroic and what is expected. Right? What the hero needs from the community and vice versa. You know, that's all that, that's saying. Ziz says, no, no, no, that's bullshit. The real hero contract is pour free energy at my direction and it will go into the optimization for good. Classic siz. In other words, classic Sizz. It's not a dialogue if you're the hero. The community has to give you their energy and time and power and you will use it to optimize them for good. Because they don't know what to do with themselves because they're not really able to think, you know, because they're not the hero. Cause they're not the hero. Right? You are, you are.

David Bourie (25:42)

You are the all powerful hero.

Robert Evans (25:45)

Now this is a fancy way of describing how cult leaders think, right?

David Bourie (25:50)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (25:51)

Everyone exists to pour energy into me and I'll use it to do what's right, you know. So this is where her mind is in 2012. But again, she's just a student posting on the Internet and chatting with other members of the subculture. At this point that year, she starts donating money to miri, the Machine Intelligence Research Institute, which is a nonprofit devoted to studying how to create friendly AI Yudkowski founded Miri in 2000, right? So this is his like nonprofit think tank. In 2013, she finished an internship at NASA. So again, she is a very smart young woman, right? She gets an internship at NASA and she builds a tool for space weather analysis. So she's a person with a lot of potential. Very, very. As all of the stuff she's writing is like dumb as shit. But again, intelligence isn't an absolute. People can be brilliant at coding and have terrible ideas about everything else.

David Bourie (26:43)

Yes, exactly.

Robert Evans (26:44)

Yeah, yeah.

David Bourie (26:46)

I wonder if she's tell you think she's telling people at work?

Robert Evans (26:51)

I don't, I don't think at this point she is because she's super insular. Right. She's very uncomfortable talking to people. Right.

David Bourie (26:59)

Okay.

Robert Evans (26:59)

She's going to kind of break out of her shell once she gets to San Francisco. Now I don't know, she may have talked to some of them about this stuff, but I really don't think she is at this point. I don't think she's comfortable enough doing that. Yeah, so she also does an internship at the software giant Oracle. So at this point you've got this young lady who's got a lot of potential, you know, a real career as well. Yeah, the start of a very real career. That's a great starting resume for like a 22 year old. Now at this point she's torn. Should she go get a graduate degree? Right. Or should she jump right into the tech industry? You know, and she worries that like if she waits to get a graduate degree, this will delay her making a positive impact on the existential risk caused by AI and it'll be too late, the singularity will happen already. You know, at this point she's still a big a fawning fan of Elisa Yudkowski and the highest ranking woman at Yudkowski's organization, Miri is a lady named Susan Salomon. Susan gives a public invitation to the online community to pitch ideas for the best way to improve the ultimate quality of the singleton that these people believe is inevitable. In other words, hey, give us your ideas for how to make the inevitable AI God. Nice. Right. Here's what Ziz writes about her response to that. I asked her whether I should try an alter course and do research or continue a fork of my pre existing life plan. Earn to give as a computer engineer, but retrain and try to do research to directly instead. At the time I was planning to go to grad school and I had an irrational attachment to the idea. She sort of compromised and said I should go to grad school, find a startup co founder, drop out and earn to give via startups instead. First off, bad advice, Susan, bad advice. Just being Steve Jobs. Being Steve Jobs. Worked for Steve Jobs. Well and And Bill Gates, I guess, to an extent. It doesn't work for most people.

David Bourie (28:58)

No, no, no. It seems like the general tech disruptor idea, you know?

Robert Evans (29:04)

Yeah. And most. These people aren't very original thinkers. Like, yeah, she's just saying, like, yeah, go do a Steve Jobs. So Ziz does go to grad school, and somewhere around that time in 2014, she attends a lecture by Elisa Yudkowski on the subject of inadequate Equilibria, which is the title of a book that Yudkowski had wrote about about the time. And the book is about where and how civilizations get stuck. One reviewer, Bryan Kaplan, who, despite being a professor of economics, must have a brain as smooth as a pearl, wrote this about it. Every society is screwed up. Elisa Yudkowski is one of the few thinkers on Earth who are trying at the most general level to understand why. And this is like, wow, that's. Please study the humanities a little bit. A little bit. A little bit. I mean, fuck it. The first and most like one of the first influential works of his modern historic scholarship is the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's a whole book about why a society fell apart. And like, motherfucker. More recently, Mike Davis existed like. Like, Jesus Christ.

David Bourie (30:16)

I can't believe this guy continues to get traction.

Robert Evans (30:19)

Nobody else is thinking about why society screwed up but Eliezer Yudkowski.

David Bourie (30:23)

This man.

Robert Evans (30:24)

This man who wrote this.

David Bourie (30:26)

This man who wrote this Harry Potter novel.

Robert Evans (30:29)

Yeah, no, I was trying to find another. I read through that Martin Luther King Jr. Speech. Everything's good.

David Bourie (30:36)

Oh, boy.

Robert Evans (30:38)

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Like, motherfucker. So many people do nothing but try to write about why our society is sick.

David Bourie (30:50)

On all levels, by the way.

Robert Evans (30:52)

On all levels.

David Bourie (30:52)

Everybody's thinking about it.

Robert Evans (30:53)

Everybody's thinking about this. This is such a common subject of scholarship and discussion.

David Bourie (31:01)

From the bar room to the bedroom. It's what everyone's talking about always.

Robert Evans (31:06)

It would be like if. If I got really into, like, reading medical textbooks and was like, you know what? Nobody's ever tried to figure out how to transplant a heart. I'm gonna write a book about how that might work.

David Bourie (31:17)

I think I got it. I think I got it.

Robert Evans (31:25)

These fucking people. So, yeah, speaking of these fucking people have sex with.

Nancy Grace (31:38)

Nope.

Robert Evans (31:39)

Well, that's not something. No, no. I don't know. I don't know. Don't fuck, listen to ads. It takes one guy out there to say, who's that? Kyle, who thinks he can just get on a microphone on a podcast and.

Kyle Tequila (31:54)

Start publicizing this from I heart Podcasts and Tenderfoot TV comes a new true crime podcast, Crook County.

Robert Evans (32:03)

I got recruited into the mob when.

Kyle Tequila (32:05)

I was 17 years old. Meet Kenny, an enforcer for the legendary Chicago outfit.

David Bourie (32:11)

And that was my mission, to snuff.

Robert Evans (32:13)

The life out of this guy.

Kyle Tequila (32:15)

He lived a secret double life as a firefighter paramedic for the Chicago Fire Department.

Robert Evans (32:19)

I don't wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything.

Nancy Grace (32:22)

People are dying. Is he doing this every night?

Kyle Tequila (32:25)

Torn between two worlds. I'm covering up murders that these cops are doing.

Robert Evans (32:29)

He was a freaking crazy man.

Nancy Grace (32:31)

We don't know who he is. Really.

Kyle Tequila (32:34)

He is. My father and I had no idea about any of this until now. Welcome to Crook County. Series premiere February 11th. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Nancy Grace (32:51)

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Breaking news tonight, the return of tot mom. It feels like a dirt sandwich in my mouth. TikTok stardom ahead as Casey Anthony haters beg. Please go away guys. Please don't miss this. Please join us. Listen to Crime Stories with Nancy grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Robert Evans (33:24)

We're back. So Ziz is at this speech where Yudkowski is shilling his book. And most of what he seems to be talking about in this speech about this book about why societies fall apart is how to make a tech startup. She says, quote, he gave a recipe for finding startup ideas. He said, Paul Graham's idea only filter on people ignore startup ideas was partial epistemic lear helplessness. That means Paul Graham is saying focus on finding good people that you'd start a company with. Having an idea for a company doesn't matter. Yudkowski says, of course startup ideas mattered. You needed a good startup idea. So look for a way the world is broken, then compare against a checklist of things you couldn't fix. That's what this speech is largely about, is him being like, here's how to find startup ideas. So she starts thinking. She starts thinking as hard as she can and, you know, being a person who is very much of the tech brain industry rot at this point. She comes up with a brilliant idea. It's a genius idea. Oh, you're gonna love this idea, David. Uber for prostitutes.

David Bourie (34:36)

You're fucking with me.

Robert Evans (34:38)

No, no, it's.

David Bourie (34:42)

That's where she landed.

Robert Evans (34:44)

She lands on the idea of, look, oh, wow, Sex work is illegal, but porn isn't. So if we start an Uber, whereby a team with a Camera and a porn star come to your house and you fuck them and record it. That's a legal loophole. We just found out how to have legal prostitution.

David Bourie (35:05)

Is that not just the bang bus?

Robert Evans (35:09)

She makes the bang bus. The gig economy me. It is really like Don Draper moment. What about Uber? But a pimp, it's. It's so funny. These people. You gotta love it. You gotta love it. Yeah.

David Bourie (35:31)

Wow. It's. Wow. Wow. What a place to end up.

Robert Evans (35:34)

Yeah.

David Bourie (35:34)

I would love to see the other drafts.

Robert Evans (35:36)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What came first? God. Yeah, man. That is the good stuff, isn't it?

David Bourie (35:48)

Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Robert Evans (35:52)

We special minds at work here. Oh, man.

David Bourie (35:56)

Ultimately, to save it all, I have to make smut.

Robert Evans (35:59)

I have to make pimp Uber.

David Bourie (36:03)

That's so wild.

Robert Evans (36:04)

Yes, yes. The Uber of pimping. What an idea. Now, so Ziz devotes her brief time in grad school. She's working on pimping Uber to try and find a partner. Right. She wants to have a startup partner. Someone who will embark on this journey with her.

David Bourie (36:20)

I don't know if that's an investor. You need to investors willing to give their money to them.

Robert Evans (36:26)

It doesn't work out. She drops out of grad school because quote, I did not find someone who felt like good startup co founder material. This may be because she's very bad at talking to people and also probably scares people off because the things that she talks about are deeply off putting.

David Bourie (36:42)

Yeah, I was gonna say it's also a terrible idea.

Robert Evans (36:46)

And at this point she hasn't done anything bad. So I feel bad for her. This is a person who is very lonely, who's very confused. She has by this point realized that she's trans but not transitioned. She's in like, this is. This is like a tough place to be. Right.

David Bourie (37:00)

That's a hard time.

Robert Evans (37:01)

That's hard. And nothing about her inherent personality makes it is going to make this easier for her. Right. Who she is makes all of this much harder because she also makes some comments about dropping up because her. Her thesis advisor was abusive. I don't fully know what this means and here's why. Ziz and encounters some behavior I will describe later that is abusive from other people, but also regularly defines abuse as people who disagree with her about the only thing that matters being creating an AI God to protect the animals. So I don't know if her thesis advisor was abusive or was just like, maybe drop the alien God idea for a second. Like the AI God. Yeah, yeah. But maybe focus on finding a job, you know Making some friends. Yeah.

David Bourie (37:52)

Go on a couple dates.

Robert Evans (37:54)

Go on a couple of dates. Something like that. Maybe, like, maybe make God on the back burner here for a second. Whatever happened here? She decides it's time to move to the Bay. This is like 2016. She's going to find a big tech job, she's going to make that big tech money while she figures out a startup idea and finds a co founder who will let her make enough money to change and save the world. Well, the whole universe. Her first plan is to give the money to Miri Yudkowski's organization so it can continue its important work. Imagining a nice AI. Her parents. She's got enough family money that her parents are able to pay for like, I think like six months or more of rent in the Bay, which is not nothing, not a cheap place to live. I don't know exactly how long her parents are paying, but like that, that implies a degree of financial comfort. Right. So she gets hired by a startup very quickly because again, very gifted.

David Bourie (38:53)

Yeah. With a resume.

Robert Evans (38:54)

Right. Yeah, she was. It's some sort of gaming company. But at this point she's made another change in her ethics system based on leisure. Yudkowski's writings. One of Yudkowski's writings argues that is talking about the difference between consequentialists and virtue ethics. Right. Consequentionalists are people who focus entirely on what will the outcome of my actions be. And it kind of doesn't matter what I'm doing or even if it's sometimes a little fucked up if the end result is good virtue ethics, people have a code and stick to it. Right. And actually, and I kind of am surprised that he came to this, Yudkowski's conclusion is that while logically you're more likely to succeed, like on paper, you're more likely to succeed as a consequentialist. His opinion is that virtue ethics has the best outcome. People tend to do well when they stick to a code and they try to rather than like, anything goes as long as I succeed. Right. And I think that's actually a pretty decent way to live your life.

David Bourie (39:56)

No, I was gonna say it's a pretty reasonable conclusion for him.

Robert Evans (40:00)

It's a reasonable conclusion for him. So I don't blame him on this part. But here's the problem. Ziz is trying to break into and succeed in the tech industry and you can't. You are very unlikely to succeed at a high level in the tech industry if you are unwilling to do things and have things done to you. That are unethical and fucked up. I'm not saying this is good. And this is the reality of the entertainment industry too. Right? When I started, I started with an unpaid internship. Unpaid internships are bad, right? It's bad that those exist. They inherently favor people who have money and people who have family connections. I had like a small savings account for my job in special ed, but that was the standard. It's like there were a lot of unpaid internships. It got me my foot in the door. It worked for me. I also worked a lot of overtime that I didn't get paid for. I did a lot of shit that wasn't a part of my job to impress my bosses to make myself indispensable so that they would decide, like, we have to keep this guy on and pay him. And it worked for me. And I just wanted to add, because this is not in the original thing, a big part of why it worked for me is that I'm talking about a few different companies here, but particularly at Cracked where I had the internship. Like my bosses, you know, made a choice to mentor me and you know, to get me, you know, to work overtime on their own behalf to like make sure I got a paying job. Which is a big part of like the luck that I encountered that a lot of people don't. So that's another major part of like why things worked out for me is that I just got incredibly lucky with the people I was working for and with. That's bad. It's not good that things work that way. Right.

David Bourie (41:46)

It's not healthy set up for you either. Like you, you kind of defied the odds. It's. It's for, like you said, the rich people who get the job or.

Robert Evans (41:54)

Exactly.

David Bourie (41:54)

It's not even.

Robert Evans (41:55)

Yes. That said, if I am giving someone, if someone wants, what is the most likely path to succeeding? I've just got this job working at this production company or a music studio. I would say, well, your best odds are to make yourself completely indispensable and become obsessively devoted to that task. Right. That. I don't tend to give that advice anymore. I have and I have had several other friends succeed as a result of it. And all of us also burnt ourselves out and did huge amounts of damage to ourselves. Like, I am permanently broken as a result of, you know, the 10 years that I did. 80 hour weeks and shit, you know.

David Bourie (42:41)

Now you're sounding like somebody who works in the entertainment industry.

Robert Evans (42:44)

Yes. And it worked for me. Right. I got up, I got a. I succeeded I got a great job. I got money. Money. Most people, it doesn't. And it's bad that it works this way. Ziz, unlike me, is not willing to do that. Right. She thinks it's wrong to be asked to work overtime and not get paid for it. And so on her first day at the job, she leaves after eight hours, and her boss is like, what the fuck are you doing? And she's like, I'm here. Supposed to be here eight hours. Eight hours is up. I'm going home. And he calls her half an hour later and fires her. Right. And this is because the tech industry's evil, you know, like, this is bad. She's not bad here. It is like a thing where she's not doing, by her standards, what I would say is the rational thing, which would be, if all that matters is optimizing your earning power. Right.

David Bourie (43:38)

Right.

Robert Evans (43:38)

Well, then you do this. Then you do do whatever it takes. Right? So it's kind of interesting to me that she is so devoted to this virtue ethics thing at this point, point, that she fucks over her career in the tech industry because she's not willing to do the things that you kind of need to do to succeed in the place that she is. But it's interesting. I don't give her any shit for that. So she asks her parents for more Runway to extend her time in the bay, and then she finds work at another startup, but the same problems persist. They kept demanding that I work unpaid overtime, talking about how other employees just put. Always put 40 hours on their timesheet, no matter what. And this exemplary employee over there worked 12 hours a day, and he really went the extra mile and got the job done. And they needed me to really go the extra mile and get the job done. She's not willing to do that. And again, I hate that this is part of what drives her to the madness that leads to the cult, to the killings. Because it's like, oh, honey, you're in the right. It's an evil industry.

David Bourie (44:37)

You see a flash of where it could have gone. Well, there were chances for this to work out.

Robert Evans (44:43)

No, you are 100% right. Like, this is fucked up. Yeah.

David Bourie (44:48)

You know what I mean?

Robert Evans (44:49)

And that's super hard. I really respect that part of you. Oh, yeah.

David Bourie (44:54)

In that culture.

Robert Evans (44:55)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sad that this is part of what shatters your brain. Like, that really bums me out. So first off, she's kind of starts spiraling and she concludes that she hates virtue ethics. This is where she starts hating Yudkowski Right. She doesn't come break entirely on him yet, but she gets really angry at this point because she's like, well, obviously virtue ethics don't work.

David Bourie (45:20)

She's been following this man at this point for years.

Robert Evans (45:23)

Right, exactly, exactly. So this is a very damaging thing to her that this happens. And again, as much as I blame Yudkowski, the culture of the Bay Area tech industry, that's a big part of what drives this person to where she ends up. Right, right. So that said, some of her issues are also rooted in a kind of rigid and unforgiving internal rule set. At one point, she negotiates work with a professor and their undergraduate helper. She doesn't want to take an hourly job, and she tries to negotiate a flat rate of 7K. And they're like, yeah, okay, that sounds fair. But the school doesn't do stuff like that. So you will have to fake some paperwork with me for me to be able to get them to pay you $7,000. And she isn't willing to do that. And that's the thing where it's like, ah, no, I've had some shit where this was the. Like, there was a stupid rule, and, like, in order for the meat or other people to get paid, we had to, like, tell something else to the company. Like, that's just knowing how to get by.

David Bourie (46:25)

Yeah. That's living in the world you got. You did the hard part.

Robert Evans (46:30)

Yeah.

David Bourie (46:30)

They said they were gonna do it.

Robert Evans (46:31)

You said they'd do it.

David Bourie (46:32)

Yeah, that's like, they already said, we don't do this. That's where you're like, all right.

Robert Evans (46:36)

You just. You can't get by in America if you're not willing to lie on certain kinds of paperwork. Right. That's the game our president does all the fucking time. He's the king of that shit. So at this point, Ziz is stuck in what they consider a calamitous situation. The prophecy of doom, as they call it, is ticking ever closer, which means the bad AI that's going to create hell for everybody. Her panic over this is elevated by the fact that she. She starts to get obsessed with Rocco's basilisk at this time.

David Bourie (47:10)

Oh, no.

Robert Evans (47:10)

I know, I know. Worst thing for her to read.

David Bourie (47:13)

Come on.

Robert Evans (47:15)

What?

David Bourie (47:15)

They call it an infohazard.

Robert Evans (47:16)

An infohazard.

David Bourie (47:18)

She should have heeded the warnings.

Robert Evans (47:19)

Yep. And a lot of the smarter rationalists are just annoyed by it. Again, Yadkowski immediately is like, this is. Very quickly decides it's bullshit and bans discussion of it. He argues there's no incentive for a future agent to follow through with that threat because it, by doing so, it just expends resources at no gain to itself. Which is like, yeah, man. A hyperlogical AI would not immediately jump to, I must make hell for everybody who didn't code me. Like, yeah, that's just crazy.

David Bourie (47:48)

There's some step skipped.

Robert Evans (47:50)

Yeah, only humans are like ill in that way.

David Bourie (47:54)

That's the funny thing about it is it's such a human response to it.

Robert Evans (47:57)

Yeah, right, Right. Now, when she encounters the concept of Rocco's basilisk, at first Ziz thinks that it's silly, right? She kind of rejects it and moves on. But once she gets to the bay, she starts going to in person rationalist meetups and having long conversations with other believers who are still talking about Rocco's basilisk. She writes, I started encountering people who were freaked out by it, freaked out that they had discovered an improvement to the infohazard that made it functional. Got around to Leeser's objection. Her ultimate conclusion is this. If I persisted in trying to save the world, I would be tortured until the end of the universe by a coalition of all unfriendly AIs in order to increase the amount of measure they got by demoralizing me. Even if my system 2 had good decision theory, my system 1 did not, and that would damage my effectiveness. And like, I can't explain all of the terms in that without taking more time than we need to. But, like, you can hear, like, that is not the writing of a person who is thinking and logical terms.

David Bourie (48:56)

No, it's, it's a, it's so scary.

Robert Evans (49:01)

Yes, yes. This is very scary stuff.

David Bourie (49:04)

It's so scary to be like, oh, that's where she was operating. Those are the stakes.

Robert Evans (49:08)

This is where your head is dealing with. Yeah, that's, that's it is. You know, I talk to my friends who are raised in like very toxic evangelical subculture, chunks of the evangelical subculture and grow up and spend their whole childhood terrified of hell. That, like, everything, you know, I got angry at my mom and I didn't say anything, but God knows I'm angry at her and he's going to send me to hell because I didn't respect my mother. Like, that's what she's doing, Right?

David Bourie (49:34)

Exactly, exactly. She can't win. There's no winning here.

Robert Evans (49:37)

Yes, yes. And again, I say this a lot. We need to put lithium back in the drinking water. We got to put lithium back in the water. Maybe Xanax too.

David Bourie (49:47)

She needed, she could have Taken a combo.

Robert Evans (49:50)

Yeah.

David Bourie (49:51)

Getting rid of before it gets to where it gets. At this point, you really. You really feel for her in, like, just living in this. Living like that every day. She's so scared that this is what she's doing. It's. It's this.

Robert Evans (50:07)

This is. She is the therapy kneadingest woman I have ever heard of at this point. Oh, my God.

David Bourie (50:13)

She just needs to talk to.

Robert Evans (50:14)

She needs to talk to a lot of people again. You know, the cult. The thing that happens to cult members has happened to her. Her. Where the whole language she uses is incomprehensible to people. I had to talk to you for an hour and 15 minutes so you would understand parts of what this lady says, right?

David Bourie (50:32)

Exactly.

Robert Evans (50:33)

Because you have to. Because it's all nonsense if you don't do that work.

David Bourie (50:36)

Exactly. She's so spun out at this point, it's like, how do you even get back?

Robert Evans (50:41)

Yeah.

David Bourie (50:41)

How do you even get back?

Robert Evans (50:43)

Yeah. So she ultimately decides, even though she thinks she's doomed to be tortured by unfriendly AI, evil gods must be fought. If this damns me, then so be it.

David Bourie (50:52)

She's very heroic.

Robert Evans (50:55)

She sees herself that way, right? Yes. Yeah.

David Bourie (50:57)

And even, like, just with her convictions and things. She does.

Robert Evans (51:01)

She does.

David Bourie (51:02)

She does. She does. She does it.

Robert Evans (51:04)

She's a woman of conviction. You really can't take that away from her. Really. Those convictions are nonsense.

David Bourie (51:11)

No, that's the problem.

Robert Evans (51:13)

But they're there.

David Bourie (51:14)

They're based on an elaborate Harry Potter fan fiction.

Robert Evans (51:17)

Yeah. It's like David Icke, the guy who believes in, like, literal lizard people, and everyone thinks he's, like, talking about the Jews, but, like, no, no, no, no. He's just lizards.

David Bourie (51:26)

It's exactly that. Where it's just like, you want to draw. You want to draw something so it's not nonsense, and then you realize, no, that's.

Robert Evans (51:34)

No, no, no, no. And like, David, he went out, he's made, like, a big rant against how Elon Musk is, like, evil for what? All these people he's hurt by firing the whole federal government, people were shocked. And it's like, no, no, no, no. David Icke believes in a thing. It's just crazy. Those people do exist.

David Bourie (51:53)

Yeah. Here we are talking about them, and.

Robert Evans (51:55)

Here we are talking about them. Some of them run the country. Well, actually, I don't know how much all of those people believe in anything.

David Bourie (52:01)

But, no, I don't think they're flying any flag.

Robert Evans (52:04)

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Kyle Tequila (52:26)

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Robert Evans (52:34)

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David Bourie (52:41)

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Robert Evans (52:43)

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I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything.

Nancy Grace (52:52)

People are dying. Is he doing this every night?

Kyle Tequila (52:55)

Torn between two worlds. I'm covering up murders that these cops are doing.

Robert Evans (53:00)

He was a freaking crazy man.

Nancy Grace (53:02)

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Robert Evans (53:54)

We're back. So she is at this point, suffering from delusions of grandeur, and those are going to rapidly lead her to dange. But she concludes that since the fate of the universe is at stake in her actions, she would make a timeless choice to not believe in the Basilisk. Right, and that that will protect her in the future, because that's how these people talk about stuff like that. So she gets over her fear of the Basilisk for a little while. But even when she claims to have rejected the theory, whenever she references it in her blog, she, like, locks it away under a spoiler with, like, an infohazard warning. Rocco's Basilisk F Family Skippable. So you don't, like, have to see it and have it destroy your psyche.

David Bourie (54:40)

That's the power of it.

Robert Evans (54:42)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The concept does, however, keep coming back to her, like, and continuing to drive her mad. Thoughts of the Basilisk return, and eventually she comes to an extreme conclusion. If what I cared about was sentient life and I was willing to go to hell to save everyone else, why not just send everyone else to hell? If I didn't submit, can I tell You.

David Bourie (55:03)

I really. It felt like this is. What was. This is like where it had to go. Right?

Robert Evans (55:07)

Yeah, yeah, yes. So what she means here is that she is now making the timeless decision that when she is in a position of ultimate influence and helps bring this all powerful vegan AI into existence, she's promising now, ahead of time, to create a perfect hell, a digital hell, to like punish all of the people who don't stop, like, eat meat ever. She wants to make a hell for people who eat meat. And that's the conclusion that she makes. Right. So this becomes an intrusive thought in her head, primarily the idea that everyone isn't going along with her. Right. She doesn't want to create this hell. She just thinks that she has to. So she's very focused on trying to convince these other people in the rationalist culture to become vegan. Anyway, she writes this quote. I thought it had to be subconsciously influencing me, damaging my effectiveness, that I had done more harm than I can imagine by thinking these things. Because I had the hubris to think infohazards didn't exist. And worse, to feel resigned, grim sword of pride in my previous choice to fight for sentient life, although it damned me and the gaps between. Do not think about that, you moron. Do not think about that, you moron. Pride which may have led to intrusive thoughts to resurface and progress to resume. In other words, my ego had perhaps damned the universe. So, man, I don't fully get all of what she's saying here, but it's also because she's like just spun out into madness at this point.

David Bourie (56:40)

Yeah, she lives in it now. It's so far we've been talking about it however long. She's so far away from us even.

Robert Evans (56:51)

Yeah, and it is deeply. I've read a lot of her writing. It is deeply hard to understand pieces of it here.

David Bourie (56:58)

Oh, man. But she is at war with herself, clearly.

Robert Evans (57:01)

She is for sure at war with herself. Now, Ziz is at this point attending rationalist events by the bay. And a lot of the people at those events are older, more influential men, some of whom are influential in the tech industry, all of whom have a lot more money than her. And some of these people are members of an organization called sefar, the center for Applied Rationality, which is a nonprofit founded to help people get better at pursuing their goals. It's a self help company, right? It runs self help seminars. This is the same as like a Tony Robbins thing, right? We're all just trying to get you to Sign up and then get you to sign up for the next workshop and the next workshop and the next workshop, like all self help people do. Yeah, there's no difference between this and Tony Robbins. Robbins. So Ziz goes to this event and she has a long conversation with several members of CFAR who I think are clearly kind of. My interpretation of this is that they're trying to groom her to get a new. Because they think chick's clearly brilliant, she'll find her way in the industry. And we want her money. Right. You know, maybe we want her to do some free work for us too. But like, let's, let's, you know, we gotta reel this fish in. Right? So this is described as an academic conference by people who are in the AI risk field and rationalism thinking of ways to save the universe, because only the true super geniuses can do that. The actual why I'm really glad that I read Ziz's account here is I've been reading about these people for a long time. I've been reading about their beliefs. I felt there's some cult stuff here. When Ziz laid out what happened at this seminar, this self help seminar put on by these people very close to Yudkowski, it's almost exactly the same as a Synanon meeting. Like, it's the same stuff and it's the same shit. It's the same as accounts of big self help movement, things from the 70s and stuff that I've read. That's when it really clicked to me. Right. Quote, here's a description of one of the. Because they have, you know, speeches and they break out into groups to do different exercises, right? There were hamming circles per person. Take turns having everyone else spend 20 minutes trying to solve the most important problem about your life to you. I didn't pick the most important problem in my life because secrets. I think I used my turn on a problem I thought they might actually be able to help with the fact that it did, although it didn't seem to affect my productivity or willpower at all. That is, I was inhumanly determined basically all the time. Time. I still felt terrible all the time that I was hurting to some degree, relinquishing my humanity. I was sort of vaguing about the pain of being trans and having decided not to transition. And so, like, this is a part of the thing. You build a connection between other people in this group by getting people to like, spill their secrets to each other. It's a thing Scientology does. It's a thing they did at Synanon tell me your darkest secret. Right. And she's not fully willing to because she doesn't want to come out to this group of people yet. And you know, part of what happens.

David Bourie (60:12)

I forget that she's also dealing with that entire.

Robert Evans (60:15)

Yes.

David Bourie (60:15)

Wow. Yeah.

Robert Evans (60:17)

And the hamming circle doesn't sound so bad, if you'll recall. And as you mentioned this, I was really glad you did. In part one, Synanon would have people break into circles where they would insult and attack each other in order to create a traumatic experience that would bond them together. And with the cult. These hamming circles are weird, but they're not that. But there's enough. Another exercise they did next called doom circles. There were doom circles where each person, including themself, took turns having everyone else bluntly but compassionately say why they were doomed. Using blindsight, someone decided and set a precedent of starting these off with a sort of ritual incantation. We now invoke and bow to the doom gods. And waving their hands saying doom. I said I'd never bow to the doom gods. And while everyone else said that, I flipped the double bird to the heavens and said fuck you instead. Person A, that's this member of CFAR that she is admires, found this agreeable and joined in. Some people brought up that they felt like they were only as morally valuable as half a person. This irked me. I said they were whole persons and don't be stupid like that. Like if they wanted to sacrifice themselves, they could weigh 1 versus 7 billion. They didn't have to falsely denigrate themselves as less than one person person. They didn't listen. When it was my turn concerning myself, I said my doom was that I could succeed at the things I tried, succeed exceptionally well. Like I bet I could in 10 years have earned to give like $10 million through startups and it would still be too little, too late. Like I came into this game too late, the world would still burn. And first off, like this is, you know, it's a variant of the Synanon thing. You're going and you're telling people why they're doomed, right? Like why they won't succeed in the life. But it's also one of the things here. These people are saying they feel like less than a person. A major topic of discussion in the community at the time is if you don't think you can succeed in business and make money is the best thing with the highest net value you can do. Taking out an insurance policy on yourself and committing suicide.

David Bourie (62:20)

Oh my God.

Robert Evans (62:21)

And Then having the money donated to a rationalist organization. That's a major topic of discussion. Discussion that, like Ziz grapples with. A lot of these people grapple with, right? Because they were obsessed with the idea of, like, oh, my God, I might be net negative value, right? If I can't do this or can't do this, I could be a net negative value individual. And that means, like, I'm not contributing to the solution. And there's nothing worse than not contributing to the solution.

David Bourie (62:45)

Were there people who did that?

Robert Evans (62:48)

I am not aware there are people who commit suicide in this community. I will say that there are a number of suicides tied to this community. I don't know if the actual insurance con thing happened, but it's a seriously discussed thing. And it's seriously discussed because all of these people talk about the value of their own lives in purely mechanistic how much money or expected value can I produce? That is a person? And that's why a person matters, right? And the term they use is morally valuable, right? Like, that's what means you're a worthwhile human being if you're morally valuable. If you're creating a net positive benefit to the world in the way they define it. And so a lot of these people are. Yes, there are people who are depressed and there are people who kill themselves because they come to the conclusion that they're a net negative person, right? Like, that is a thing at the edge of all of this shit that's really fucked up. And that's what this doom circle is about. Is everybody, like, flipping out over. I'm like. And telling each other, I think you might know, be as only be as morally valuable as half a person. Right? Like, that's. People are saying that, right? Like, that's what's going on here, you know, like, it's not the Synanon thing of, like, screaming like you're a. You know, using the F slur a million times or whatever, but it's very bad.

David Bourie (64:14)

No, this is awful.

Robert Evans (64:18)

For, like, one thing I don't know. My feeling is you have inherent value because you're a person.

David Bourie (64:24)

Yeah, that's a great place to start. You know, she's also leading people to destroy themselves. Like, it's not even.

Robert Evans (64:34)

It's such a bleak way of looking at things.

David Bourie (64:37)

It's so crazy, too. Where were these? Me, I just. In my head, I'm like, this is just happening in, like, a ballroom at.

Robert Evans (64:42)

A Radisson, I think it is. Or convention center. You know, there's different kind of public spaces. I don't know. Like, honestly, if you've been to like a fucking anime convention or a the Gathering convention somewhere in the bay, you may have been in one of the rooms they did these in. I don't know exactly where they hold this. So the person A mentioned above, this person who's affiliated with the organization that I think is a recruiter looking for young people who can be cultivated to pay for classes, right? This person, it's very clear to them that Ziz is at the height of her vulnerability and so he tries to take advantage of that. So he and another person from the organization engage Ziz. During a break, Ziz, who's extremely insecure, asks them point blank, what do you think my net value ultimately will be in life? Right? And again, there's like an element of this. It's almost like rationalist Calvinism where it's like it's actually decided ahead of time by your inherent immutable characteristics. You know, if you are a person who can do good. Quote I asked person A if they expected me to be net negative. They said yes. After a moment. They asked me what I was feeling or something like that. I said something like dazed and sad. They asked why sad? I said I might leave the field as a consequence and maybe something else. I said I needed time to process or think. And so she goes home after this guy saying, yeah, I think your life's probably net negative value, and sleeps the rest of the day. And she wakes up the next morning and comes back to the second day of this thing. And yeah, Ziz goes back and she tells this person, okay, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to pick a group of three people at the event I respect, including you, and if two of them vote that they think I have a net negative value, quote I'll leave EA and existential risk and the rationalist community and so on forever. I'd transition and move probably to Seattle. I heard it was relatively nice for trans people. And there do what I could to be a normie, retool my mind as much as possible to be stable, unchanging. And a normie gradually abandoned my Facebook account and email. Use a name change as a story for that and God, that would have been the best thing for her.

David Bourie (66:55)

That's what I. Oh, you see like the sliver of hope.

Robert Evans (66:58)

Like, oh man, she sees this as a nightmare, right? This is the worst case scenario for her, right? Because you're not part of.

David Bourie (67:08)

She's spun out, right?

Robert Evans (67:09)

You're not part of the. You're not part of the cause. You know, you have no involvement in the great quest to save humanity. That's worse than death almost. Right?

David Bourie (67:19)

That's its own kind of hell, though, right? To think that you have this enlightenment and then that you weren't good enough to participate. And she talks about your best efforts a lot.

Robert Evans (67:29)

About how I'd probably just kill myself. You know, that's the logical thing to do. It's so fucked up. It's so fucked up. And also, if she's trying to live a normal life as a normie, and she refers to being a normie as just trying to be nice to people because, again, that's useless. So her fear here is that she would be a causal negative if she does this. Right. And also the robot God that comes about might put her in hell.

David Bourie (67:56)

Right. Because that's also looming for every decision. Right?

Robert Evans (68:01)

Yeah. And a thing here, she tells these guys a story and it really shows both in this community and among her, how little value they actually have for human life. Life. I told a story about a time I had killed four ants in a bathtub where I wanted to take a shower before going to work. I'd considered, can I just not take a shower? And presumed me smelling bad at work would, because of big numbers and the fate of the world and stuff, make the world worse than the deaths of four basically causally isolated people. I considered getting paper in a cup and taking them elsewhere. And I figured there were decent odds if I did, I'd be late to work and it would probably make the world worse in the long run. Again, she considers ants identical to human beings. And she is also saying it was worth killing four of them because they're causally isolated so that I could get to work in time because I'm working for the cause. It's also such a bad place here. Yeah.

David Bourie (68:56)

The crazy thing about her is it, like, the amount of thinking just to, like, get in the shower to go to work. You know what I mean? Like, that. It just seems like it makes everything.

Robert Evans (69:10)

Yeah.

David Bourie (69:11)

Every action is so loaded.

Robert Evans (69:14)

Yes.

David Bourie (69:15)

The weight of that must be.

Robert Evans (69:17)

It's wild to me, both this mix of Jane Buddhist compassion of like, an ant is no less than I or an ant is no less than a human being. Right. These are all light and then. But also it's fine for me to kill a bunch of them to go to work on time because, like, they're causally isolated, so they're basically not people. Like, it's so weird and Again, it's getting a lot clearer here why this lady and her ideas end in a bunch of people getting shot.

David Bourie (69:51)

Yeah.

Robert Evans (69:52)

And stabbed. Okay. There's a samurai sword later in the story, My friend. Friend.

David Bourie (69:58)

That's the one thing this has been missing.

Robert Evans (70:00)

Yes, yes. So they continue, these guys to have a very abusive conversation with this young person. And she clearly, she trusts them enough to.

David Bourie (70:09)

Conversation where she asked for the two.

Robert Evans (70:11)

Yeah.

David Bourie (70:12)

Okay.

Robert Evans (70:12)

Yeah. And she tells them she's trans. Right. And this gives you an idea of, like, how kind of predatory some of the stuff going on in this community is. They asked what I'd do with a female body. They were trying to get me to admit what I actually wanted to do as the first thing in hell. Heaven being. There's this idea, especially amongst some trans members of the rationalist community, that all of them basically believe a robot's gonna make heaven. Right? And obviously, there's a number of the folks who are in this who are trans, who are like. And in heaven, you just kind of get the body you want immediately. Right? So they were trying to get me to admit that what I actually wanted to do as the first thing in heaven was masturbate in a female body. Body. And they follow this up by sitting really close to her, close enough that she gets uncomfortable. And then a really, really rationalist conversation follows. They asked if I felt trapped. I may have clarified physically. They may have said sure. Afterward. I answered no to that question under the likely justified belief that it was framed that way. They asked why not? I said I was pretty sure I could take them in a fight. They prodded for details why I thought so, and then how I thought a fight between us would. I asked what kind of fight. Like a physical, unarmed fight to the death right now, and why. What were my payouts? This was over the fate of the multiverse, triggering actions by other people. That is your imprisonment or murder was not relevant. So they decide to. They make this into. Again, these people are all addicted to dumb game theory stuff, right? Okay, so what is this fight? Is this fight over the fate of the multiverse? Are we in an alternate reality where, like, no one will come and intervene and there's no cops, we're the only people in the world, or whatever. So they tell her, yeah, imagine there's no consequences legally, whatever, till you do, and we're fighting over the fate of the multiverse. And so she proceeds to give an extremely elaborate discussion of how she'll gouge out their eyes and try to destroy their prefrontal lobes and Then stomp on their skulls until they die. And it's both, it's like, it's nonsense. It's like how 10 year olds think fights work. It's also, it's based on this game theory attitude of fighting that they have, which is like you have to make this kind of timeless decision that any fight is you're just gonna murder. Right.

David Bourie (72:19)

So you have to go with the hardest confrontation, right?

Robert Evans (72:21)

Yes.

David Bourie (72:22)

I think you have to be the most violent.

Robert Evans (72:24)

Yes, yes. Cause that will make other people not want to attack you. As opposed to like what normal people understand about like real fights, which is if you have to do one, if you have to, you like try to just like hit them in the. Hit them somewhere that's going to shock them and then run like a motherfucker, right? You get the guys out of it.

David Bourie (72:42)

As fast as possible if you have.

Robert Evans (72:44)

To, like, ideally just run like a motherfucker, but if you have to strike somebody, you know, yeah, go for the eye and then run like a son of a bitch, you know, like. But there's no run like a son of a bitch here because the point in part is this like timeless decision to. Anyway, this tells you a lot about the rationalist community. So she tells these people, she explains in detail how she would murder them if they had a fight.

David Bourie (73:07)

Right now, as they're like scooting super.

Robert Evans (73:11)

Close, having just asked her about masturbation. Here's their first question. Quote, they asked if I'd rape their corpse. Part of me insisted this was not going as it was supposed to, but I decided inflicting discomfort in order to get reliable information was a valid tactic. In other words, them trying to make her dis uncomfortable, to get info from her, she decides it's fine. Also, the whole discussion about raping their corpses is like, well, if you rape, obviously if you want to have the most extreme response possible, that would make other people unlikely to fucking with you. Knowing that you'll violate their corpse if you kill them is clearly the light.

David Bourie (73:44)

And like that really, Is that okay?

Robert Evans (73:47)

Sure. I love rational thought.

David Bourie (73:50)

Oh man. Man, this is crazy. Sorry. This is so crazy.

Robert Evans (73:57)

It's so nuts. So then they talk about psychopathy. One of these guys had earlier told Ziz that they thought she was a psychopath, but he told her that he told her that doesn't mean what it means both to actual clinicians because psychopathy is a diagnostician or what normal people mean to rationalists. A lot of them think psychopathy is a state you can put yourself into in order to Maximize your performance in certain situations. Because, again, there's some popular books that are about the psychopath's way, the dark triad. And these are the people who led societies in the toughest times. And so you need to optimize and engage in some of those bad behaviors if you want to win in these situations. Based on all of this, Ziz brings up what rationalists call the Gervais Principle. Now, this started as a tongue in cheek joke describing a rule of office dynamics based on the TV show the Office.

David Bourie (74:56)

When you said it, I was like, there's no way.

Robert Evans (74:58)

Yes, it's Ricky Gervais. Yes. And the idea is that in office environments, psychos always rise to the top. This is supposed to be like a negative observation. Like, the person who wrote this initially is like, yeah, this is how offices work. And it's like, why they're bad. It's an extension of the Peter Principle. And these psychopaths put dumb and incompetent people in positions below them for a variety. It's trying to kind of work out why in which offices are often dysfunctional. Right. It's not like the original Gervais Principle thing is not a bad piece of writing or whatever, but Ziz takes something insane out of it. I described how the Gervais Principle said sociopaths give up empathy, as in a certain chunk of social software, not literally all hardware. Accelerated modeling of people, not necessarily compassion, and with it, happiness. Destroying meaning to create power. Meaning too, I did not care about. I wanted this world to live on. So she tells them she's come to the conclusion I need to make myself into a psychopath in order to have the kind of mental power necessary to do the things that I want to do. And she largely justifies this by describing the beliefs of the Sith from Star wars wars because she thinks she needs to remake herself as a psychopathic, evil warrior monk in order to save all of creation.

David Bourie (76:20)

Yeah, no, of course.

Robert Evans (76:21)

Yep. So this is her hitting her final form. And true to. True to fact, these guys are like. They don't say it's a good idea that. But they're like, okay, yeah, you know, that's not. That's not the worst thing you could do. Sure. You know, like, I think the Sith stuff kind of weird, but making yourself a psychopath makes sense. Sure, sure. Yeah. Of course. I know a lot of guys who did that. That's literally what they say. Right. And then they say that also. I don't even think that's what they really. They say that because the Next thing they say, this guy, person A is like, look, the best way to turn yourself from a net negative to a net positive value. I really believe you could do it. But to do it, you need to come to 10 more of these seminars and keep taking classes here. Right, right, of course. Right, yeah. Here's a quote from. From them or from Ziz. She's conditional on me going to a long course of circling like these two organizations offered particularly a 10 weekend one. Then I probably would not be net negative. So things are going good. This is, this is, you know, yeah, great.

David Bourie (77:29)

How much is 10 weekends cost?

Robert Evans (77:31)

I don't actually know. I don't, I don't fully know with this. It's possible some of these are like, some of the events are free, like, but the classes cost money or. But it's also a lot of. It's like there's donations expected or by doing this and being a member, it's expected. You're going to tithe. Basically. That's what I was thinking. It seems like 50% of your income. Right.

David Bourie (77:52)

More than. They're like worried about this money at the time.

Robert Evans (77:55)

I mean, with. Right. I don't know the format. Is she not going to be like super suspicious that people are like, you know, faking it or like going over the top? She is, she is. She gets actually really uncomfortable. They have an exercise where they're basically doing, you know, they're playing with love bombing, right. Where everyone's like hugging and telling each other they love each other. And she's like, I don't really believe it. I just met these people. So she, she is starting to. And she is going to break away from these organizations pretty quickly. But this conversation she have with, with these guys is a critical part of, of like, why she finally has this fracture. Because, number one, this dude keeps telling her you have a net negative value to the universe. Right. And so she's obsessed with like, how do I. And it comes to the conclusion my best way of being net positive is to make myself into a sociopath and a Sith Lord to save the animals. Of course.

David Bourie (78:53)

It feels like the same thinking though, as like, the robot's gonna make hell. It seems to always come back to this idea of, like, I think we just gotta be evil.

Robert Evans (79:03)

Where it's like, oh, yes.

Nancy Grace (79:05)

Well, I guess the only logical conclusion is doom.

Robert Evans (79:11)

Yep.

David Bourie (79:13)

Yeah. Yeah, it's like, it feels like it's a. It's a theme here.

Robert Evans (79:19)

Yep. Anyway, you want to plug anything at the end here.

David Bourie (79:24)

I have a comedy special you can Purchase on Patreon. It's called Birth of a Nation with a G. And you can get that@patreon.com davidbory Excellent.

Robert Evans (79:36)

Excellent. All right, folks. Well, that is the end of the episode. David, thank you so much for coming onto our inaugural episode by listening to some of the weirdest shit we've ever talked about on this show.

David Bourie (79:52)

Yeah, this was. I don't really. I'm gonna be thinking about this for weeks.

Robert Evans (79:56)

I mean. Yeah, yeah. To me, I feel like it's kind of fair because your co host likes it. Kermit K. Bond for the Elders of Zion episodes. Yeah. Yeah.

David Bourie (80:07)

Okay.

Robert Evans (80:08)

I wanted to. I was initially gonna kind of just focus on all of this. Would have been like half a page or so, you know, just kind of summing up. Here's the gist of what this believes. And then let's get to the actual cult stuff when, like, you know, Ziz starts bringing in followers and the crimes start happening. But that Rowling or that Wired article really covers all that very well. And that's the best piece. Most of the journalism I've read on these guys is not very well written. It's not very good. It does not really explain what they are or why they do. So I decided. And the Wired piece is great. I know the Wired guy knows all of the stuff that I brought up here. He just. It's an article. You have editors. He left out what he thought he needed to leave out. I don't have that problem. And I wanted to really, really deeply trace exactly where this. This lady's. How this lady's mind develops and how that intersects with rationalism. Cause it's interesting and kind of important. And bad. Yeah, okay.

David Bourie (81:11)

It is so interesting.

Robert Evans (81:13)

Anyway, thanks for having a head fucking with me. All right, that's it, everybody. Goodbye. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzone media.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is Now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube.com behindthebastards.

Kyle Tequila (81:48)

My name is Kyle Tequila, host of the shocking new true crime podcast, Crook County. I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old.

Nancy Grace (81:56)

People are dying. Is he doing this every night?

Kyle Tequila (81:58)

Kenny was a Chicago firefighter who lived a secret double life as a Mafia hitman.

Robert Evans (82:03)

I had a wife and I had two children. Nobody knew anything. He was a freaking crazy, crazy man.

Kyle Tequila (82:08)

He was my father and I had no idea about any of this until now. Crook county is available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Nancy Grace (82:22)

I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Breaking news tonight, the return of tot mom. It feels like a dirt sandwich in my mouth. TikTok stardom ahead as Casey Anthony haters beg. Please go away, guys. Please don't miss this. Please join us. Listen to crime Stories with Nancy grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.