← Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast
Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast
Behind the Numbers: How to Build a Brand From the Ground Up
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- [00:00]
Marcus
Foreign. It's Friday, March 14th. Susie, Jeremy, Aaron, and listeners, welcome to behind the Numbers Any Marketer video podcast. I'm Marcus. Today I'm joined by three people. Let's meet them. We start with our vice president, principal analyst and head of our retail desk, living in New York at Suzy David Canyon.
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Susie
Hello. Thanks for having me.
- [00:22]
Marcus
Of course. We're also joined by our senior director of briefings, based in the same city is Jeremy Goldman.
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Jeremy
Happy PI day.
- [00:31]
Marcus
Oh, it is. Yeah. Okay.
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Susie
Are.
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Jeremy
You said.
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Marcus
Do you.
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Jeremy
Do you dislike pie?
- [00:37]
Marcus
No, I just, I. I should have known that was coming because you know the, you know the theme for every day of the year somehow. And yet still it surprises me when you. When you bring it up on the show. We're also joined by the strategic advisor to Mint Mobile living life in California, it's Aaron North.
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Aaron
Hello and thank you for having me.
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Jeremy
Yes, sir.
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Marcus
That was a more normal acknowledgement, Jeremy. If just in case.
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Jeremy
I'll take notes next time.
- [01:00]
Marcus
Okay, good. We start with a speed intro to get to know our guests a little better. Most of these questions are for Aaron because you already know Jeremy and don't care that much about Susie.
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Susie
Sorry, Pat, did you actually say that.
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Marcus
The first three are going to be for Aaron? Everyone can answer the last one. Let's do it. Ready? Susie?
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Susie
I have a fan base still there of one.
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Marcus
No person messaged you on LinkedIn.
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Susie
Now there's two.
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Marcus
You are out of control.
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Susie
Not including my family.
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Marcus
Let's do it. Aaron. Aaron, you are based in California, but where are you from?
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Aaron
From Orange County. I have lived in every county in Southern California and I now reside in Orange county again. So found the best. Living life and loving it here.
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Marcus
Very good. What do you do? In a sentence?
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Aaron
Well, after creating and building Mint Mobile into the juggernaut it is, I took a step back and now I am a strategic advisor to the company, helping with new product launches, helping assist the transition to the new cmo and helping sort of like provide digital insights for the broader organization.
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Marcus
Very good. What's your morning drink?
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Aaron
Americano. And then quickly followed by a big jug of water.
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Marcus
Does no one drink milk anymore? That's always the answer. I can't get behind it. If you could start a business tomorrow, what would it be?
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Aaron
Milk business. No. Just kidding.
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Marcus
Finally you have a customer of one.
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Aaron
No, I think if you're going to go into any dairy product, you might want to go into eggs right now. There's. There's big money there. No, I guess if I could start any business tomorrow, I Think I would probably start, like, a. Like a destination travel business and have it be just pure fun and get to sort of like, roam the world and have great vacations.
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Marcus
Very nice. It sounds like you're just going off on a trip around the world by. Is this a real business idea, or do you just want to go traveling?
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Aaron
That's what we're starting to plan our summer vacation. So I'm working with someone who's helping us, and she is like, oh, I'm not available this week because I'm in the Scottish Highlands doing research. And I'm like, you have the best job, period.
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Marcus
That's true. Very good, Susie. If you could start a business, that wouldn't be.
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Susie
We get to answer this one.
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Marcus
This is the only one.
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Susie
Oh, my gosh. So I have two, but I'm not 100% sure how we would monetize them. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm.
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Jeremy
Is it a business then? I'm just saying, I mean, nonprofit.
- [03:38]
Marcus
It is not a nonprofit.
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Susie
It is like most Internet businesses where it starts off with an idea and then you figure out how to make money on it. I think it's. It's verging on non privacy, so I understand it might not be doable, but I think there's something to be said about being able to click with your phone on someone's face and know how you know them. Like that your phone. You know now with all this technology that your phone understands exactly who they are to you and where you've met them. I just came back from Etail not that long ago, and you meet so many people over and over again, but can't always place them because it's a new context. So that's what I would do.
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Marcus
You want to take a photo of someone's face and then say covertly look at it and then figure out why you've forgotten who they are?
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Susie
No, covertly take a picture secretly. And then you know how you can snap a picture on Amazon and then you. It'll tell you, like, if they sell it or not. Like, there's all this.
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Marcus
Jeremy, don't do that. This is not Shark Tank, okay? This is way too long of a pitch.
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Aaron
Actually, I think I've just figured out how to monetize this. This feels like an in app integration for the new metal glasses. And then you don't even have to snap a photo. It's already taking visualizations and then giving it to you on the screen.
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Jeremy
Oh, this will exist.
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Marcus
You guys are in on this? I'm out on it. You're not getting my investment. That's madness. But Aaron and Jeremy, apparently business partners now. Jeremy, what's yours?
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Jeremy
It's like cube smart, you know, like storage. But the idea is it's. Except for the fact that it's actually. You cryogenically freeze people and then you just charge them a monthly fee and since they're never. They never technically die, so you can just keep on charging them.
- [05:15]
Marcus
There we go. That's what we're looking for, Susie. Well played, Jeremy. You win. That's. That's it for the speed and just. Speed intro. What am I talking about? They went on for ages, but it was really interesting. Fact of the day, we go as quick as possible. America used to have a $10,000 bill. Why? No one knows is the answer. So it's the largest denomination ever printed for public consumption. Its value, you'll be pleased to know, outstripped the net worth of the average American during the time that it was available. So that would be like pulling out a $200,000 bill in today's money.
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Susie
Oh, it's like crypto, before there was crypto.
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Jeremy
That's. That's like five dozen eggs right there.
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Marcus
Roughly. A few less. Ten thousand dollar bill was in circulation up until 1969. Businesses have a heart attack today if you pull out a 20. But you could use this. You could still. If you have one. You can still use them.
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Jeremy
I still. Yeah, the two dollar bills, they get really annoyed at you for those.
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Marcus
Yeah, and for good reason. Jeremy, put those away. Use real money. Anyway, today's real topic, how to build a brand from the ground up. All right, folks, so budget sales service, Mint Mobile, which folks might know from being a customer, or if you're less familiar with the brand, maybe you know them from their funny commercials featuring actor Ryan Reynolds, who was also investor in Mint. That company was bought by T Mobile in 2023 for $1.3 billion. Not bad for a company that had yet to reach its 10th birthday. Today we're joined by one of the chaps who was responsible for building Mint Mobile into the company it is today. And as Aaron mentioned, he was with the company is now the strategic advisor. But when you joined, Aaron, you joined Mint Sim, I believe they were called, and you joined. They start in 2015-2016-2015-2016.
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Aaron
August of 2016, we launched Mint Sim.
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Marcus
And you joined July in July. Okay, okay. So from the very. From the very beginning. But you were telling us before on our chat, before last week on the prep call that when you joined, you noticed something About Minsim or some things that told you it wouldn't work in its current form. What, what were they?
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Aaron
Yeah, I mean, it's sort of a wild story because it was my first day on the job and I met with the president of the company. We were sitting down, he was giving me a lay of the land. Mint was not part of the conversation during the interview process. It was quite the surprise when I got there and he said, we're doing this. We're looking at doing this digital brand called Mint Sim. So the name and the Mint Fox, who's the mascot existed. He goes, I want you to take a look at the website. So I got the website in PDF form, printed it out small format, we didn't even have a large format printer, and taped it up on a glass wall. And really where this starts is one of the things I've learned in my career is that whatever you're doing, whether it's marketing or a business or a program, an initiative, we always start with this phrase. And the phrase is, what's the habit? Perception, belief. You're trying to build, change or reinforce. And you need to have a clear definition and a clear answer there. When I looked at the website, I could not understand what we were trying to do, what we were selling, or what we were asking the customer to do. So I read, penned that sucker from top to bottom, every page, and went back into the office of the president and said, this seems very, very cool. I mean, you got to remember nine years ago, Dollar Shave was hot, Warby Parker was hot, Casper was hot. Like these brands were just starting to really blossom this early on in the D2C days. And I just looked at it and said, look, there is something promising here, but the way this is being executed, it's not going to work. We can fix it. I think this has got potential, but we have to do some things before this launches because this will fail straight out the gate. You didn't know what to do. Like you honestly got to the website, you weren't. Weren't really sure what we were selling, why it was important, why you should care, why you should be driven further down the purchase funnel. There really was no purchase funnel. There was just a bunch of interesting creative sort of crafted together to try and tell a story that I thought we could do a much better job of.
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Marcus
Yeah. So what needed to change? What were some of those things, Some of the main things that you were like, well, this needs to change before launch.
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Aaron
Well, the first thing was we're selling wireless. Like I Needed people to know above the fold that we were selling wireless direct to consumer. 2 the price point was really the special sauce of the brand and the way you bought it. So nobody was doing all digital. In fact, at the time we went and looked at AT&T's website and did one of those chats and they would not sell you wireless online. They would only tell you to go to a store. You could not physically buy online. And the reason for that is because they have so much investment in the physical asset of the store. And this is, you know, again, nine years ago. So you'd think everybody's digitizing their businesses. But in an oligopoly where, you know, some of the rooted industry players aren't really driving change, the market was primed for disruption. So we got in there, I'm like, we got to know what we're selling, how we're selling it. Talk about the special sauce. And Mint's real special sauce was because it's online. Like our cost structures are different than a retail business. We take those savings, pass them on to the customer and to sort of like the Costco model built into there. The more you buy, the more you save. So we sell wireless today in bulk, 3 months, 6 month, 12 month packages. You prepay for those packages and when you buy an annual subscription, you get the absolute best rate. You get to lock it in. Now Mint has, has never raised price over that $15 price point. So yes, you get to lock it in. But we have been steadfast at holding a $15 price point ever since we launched it.
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Jeremy
I think that. Aaron, it's really interesting as you're going through this and talking about what made the brand succeed at the beginning. And I was just going through our database and found some good data from M. Booth about brand values that are culturally impactful, in this case for us consumers, and purpose and direction, how well the company lives up to its stated values and the principles that guide its decisions and actions. Those were the top three. And it seems like almost on a subconscious level you were able to tap into that really from the get go.
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Aaron
Well, we've always talked that one of the key brand distinctive features is that we want to save you money. So when we launched, we did not have an unlimited plan because the honest truth with the American marketplace is that most customers, and I mean the vast majority of customers, don't need an unlimited data plan. But there's this belief that there's a safety blanket with unlimited. So during COVID we heard from our customers loud and clear. We gotta have an unlimited plan. There's so much uncertainty in the world that I need a certainty that my wireless service is going to work and never run out. So when we launched unlimited, we actually launched it as unlimited. And what that means is as you access Mint, you buy your first three months as sort of like a trial period. You get the best rate on that three month plan, but then you need to renew. When you renew, what Mint does, and we've done this since day one of launching Unlimited, is as you approach that 90 day marker, we send you an email that says, Jeremy, you have used this much data, this much data and this much data over the last three months. We believe we can save you even more money if you switch down to one of our metered plans at a lower monthly cost. Now Jeremy, if you ever need more data and you want to go back to unlimited, we will just prorate the delta between the term you have with us. So that is so customer beneficial and so good that that really roots into our promise of always looking for ways to save you money. And I will trade longevity for a customer over short term margin 10 times out of 10. And that's really how when you have a subscription business, you know, you're constantly bringing people in at the top of the funnel. You create a smaller and smaller hole at the bottom of the funnel so your aggregate business grows and you really grow revenue much, much faster than those which have a high throughput of customers churning out.
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Jeremy
And you're saying transparency without saying transparency. And I think that that's something. Susie, I know that the brands that your team covers, you know, clearly show that, you know, consumers are gravitating towards brands who have transparency in mind.
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Susie
That and also I find for me, I mean there's so many cool things about Mint Mobile and what you guys have done, but starting from it sounds like you were starting from a very scrappy, you know, maybe inefficient. Although it's not the words you used, brand story that you've moved into really good brand storytelling, but leaning into the cultural moments in an authentic way and using a spokesperson who is also a part owner to do all these meme like sort of memorable ads. I think it's really an interesting sort of brand building exercise because you are, although there aren't a lot of providers, it still feels like there's a crowded marketplace and it's a commodity product that everybody needs. But it's. People aren't always. People are very price sensitive. So like you took all of the important things and figured out how to bubble it into one brand, which is kind of awesome.
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Aaron
It's so funny you call out transparency because we have these core tenets of the brand and one of them is transparency is revolutionary. So one of our biggest reasons to believe and when it comes to how and why we're different is that it's our promise to our current customers and our promise to future customers. And we just feel that like this space has and had and has an opportunity to really be transparent. So we've really, really pushed hard on that.
- [15:36]
Susie
And as an outsider, for me, it also feels like you're pushing on the respect my, the consumer and respect that they have, you know, limited budget but also limited time and that they are interested in having, you know, a one to one dialogue. It's, it's a really important value too, in addition to transparency as respect.
- [15:57]
Aaron
I agree. And we used to have these shirts that we would wear all the time and Ryan said this cas and I was like, oh, can I put that on a shirt? And it's, it's very simple. And the phrase was at Mint Mobile, we don't hate you. Right. Like you get a lot of these businesses that treat their customers poorly. And I remember during the pandemic, like post pandemic, Verizon and AT&T created these things called inflationary adjustment fees. Like that's, that, that's. I don't know, it felt very much to me like that was made up. So yes, we, we want to be optimistic. We do want to push off sort of like some of the wrongs we see in the marketplace. But transparency and honesty is key.
- [16:42]
Susie
As a side note, I was at a restaurant in California and I ordered huevos rancheros and I got charged a surcharge for eggs. That is definitely zero respect or transparency. Just saying it does critical.
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Marcus
It does. I mean transparency, if you offer it up, it builds trust real quick. And it does so interesting because it does seem like a lot of companies that most companies are zigging, you're zagging, you're tracking consumer data to help. Most companies are tracking it to help sell them or you're tracking it to help save the money. You, you mentioned. Well, let's, let's start with. So Ryan Reynolds got to the company.
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Aaron
2019, November 25, 2019, we announced.
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Marcus
Okay, so before him. And then also when he got there, I want to talk about that. So how, how do you get the, the brand to stand out before a celebrity like Ryan Reynolds gets involved? And then what happened when he came on board and talk to me, a bit about the ways that Mint Mobile kind of broke the marketing mold. What kind of. After he joined.
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Aaron
Yeah. So, I mean, we had to build the brand before he got there. Right. Like we didn't have him from the start. And a lot it was. I mean, I can talk to the executional considerations that we were very consistent with. So we went with a color scheme that was very different. In wireless, we used mint green. We had a mascot which at the time was not very popular. They had sort of like spokespeople exclusively. But we used language and we screamed our price point. So we, we use profanity in a way that was meant to shock and then at least create interest and engagement. So very much top of the funnel stuff. We use the word fox, but it was F shift 8, shift 1. So F star exclamation point, as if we're saying earmuffs. Right. So we used to say that everywhere. And we would also put our 15 price point big, proud and bold. And when we do that, we could stop people. Now the trick after that is to get them to go one step further. Right. So you're running. When we were small, we were running lots of digital ads, display, search, things of that sort. Trying to like get on these competitive terms like affordable wireless and things like that. And when you have a, you know, some, some profanity mixed in, Google would not let us do it. But you could do it on display because it was a placed image. But when you have those things working together, you can start to draw attention in. And the trick to Mint was really this idea of never stop testing and never stop optimizing. So even though we started very, very small, with budgets around $10,000 a month, we were constantly tuning and Mint was. Suzy, you said this early on, Mint was 100% bootstrapped. Like at the time, our company had two brands and still does. It had Ultra Mobile and Mint Mobile. Ultra was the fastest growing private company in 2015 on the Inc 5000 was number one. So that business was humming right along. It was hard to get Mint to come in and get the attention internally because it was going into a space where other brands had tried and failed miserably. So we had to get very, very scrappy. And the one thing I knew better than anything was marketing creative and media and how to put those mechanisms in place where we were constantly tuning. So as Mint was growing, we'd create like media efficiencies and optimizations which would allow us to then spend more media. We would then have E commerce optimizations that would allow us to get more efficient. Well, we didn't take that efficiency and just be sedentary with it. We took that and we were like, now we have more room to put more money in media. And that's how you sort of like, we've shown charts before. But Mint was growing linearly. And of course when Ryan came on, we started to move exponentially. That linear growth curve was very, very steep. And as we had success, we kept reinvesting. It was never stop reinvesting in the brand and the business. And that's not to say we didn't fail constantly, because that's one of the things I'm probably most proud of, is I built a team of insanely smart people. The people who work at this company are brilliant, but we've also given them an ecosystem where they're expected to push to the boundary and beyond. And when there's failure, it's rewarded, not punished. Because when we fail, we fail fast, we fail smart, we fail small, we fail cheap, and we're failing forward. And really, I've said this a million times, failure is a synonym for risk. And we want people taking risks, smart, calculated risk. Like, if you have a great squad, they're not going to do dumb things, they're going to do smart things that drive the business. They're just not all going to work. So we would put, you know, you hear like in social media, it's like start lots of little, little ad campaigns or little fires and hoping one grows and becomes viral. We did that exact thing to our business. It's just that when we found something that worked, we pushed in big because now we had data that drove decisioning that said this is a scalable event. Now you can grow the business even faster. That's really the secret sauce at Mint.
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Susie
For me, the, the most interesting thing is that business owners or people who run businesses forget to reinvest the optimized dollars back into their business. Because you were in all these different touch points, it really felt like you were. I didn't really think about it as a budget brand necessarily. Right. Being bootstrapped quite, quite as much as it was because it had a luxury feel, like you thought about all the different touch points and connecting the stories.
- [22:41]
Aaron
One of the human truths we found with this brand like Day One in that is this is the insight that we built all of our campaigns on. And that is, how can it be any good at that price? Right. So for $15 a month, how can it be any good?
- [22:55]
Marcus
Yeah.
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Aaron
So what we did to Fight that directly head on. And I laugh because when we made this up, I'm like, this is never going to pass the sniff test. But we call it Premium Wireless for 15 bucks a month. And that's everywhere. Now, the truth is, I mean, we run on T Mobile, so we are on the biggest, baddest, fastest, most 5G awesome network in America, which is great, but it's colorless, odorless, tasteless, like you just want it to work in your phone. How is it premium if it just works? But we knew we had to constantly compete against this notion of how can it be any good if it's that cheap? So we went square at it and said premium wireless. And we have done a million things to really push that. Our app is incredibly slick. When it started, it was just a web app. And I created a program internally that we called the Sexy App Initiative. Like, we wanted the app to be world class. We send high quality packaging to people. We put a lot of investment internally into our own agency. So that way the creative, the customer touches is exceptional. The customer care group is five star. We get ranked either number one or number two in customer care across all, all wireless brands. And we are the absolute low cost leader. And it's this oxymoron of price value. We want to give you the best service possible at the lowest cost we can. And that, I think, has really separated us from the marketplace.
- [24:32]
Jeremy
I love the whole culture that you had of iterating and continually improving, but at the same time, even looking back, what's something where you're like, man, I know we could have done better in a particular facet of building the brand.
- [24:46]
Aaron
Yeah, I talk about this mistake I made a lot. So one of the things that's really hard to do when you're growing, you're having success is to be measured and not just go all in on everything. So when we were launching new tactics and new vehicles, we did them singular, like one at a time. So that way we could get high quality attribution. There have been a couple of times in this brand's history where I just get too excited and I push in on multiple things and we have mixed success and then we can't tell why. So I raise my hand and say, look, I have made a critical judgment error. We did this and we're having mixed success. We don't know where the attribution is. We have to start turning things off to see the impact. I think that's one thing I could have done better. Another thing I could have done sooner is as the company grew and we were having success, it's just natural that you want that success to spread everywhere you can. And as an mvno, sort of like our business model was to find untapped opportunities in the marketplace and go get them. So Ultra really, like, was built to assist the immigrant diaspora in the United States and give them one touch. International calling. Before Ultra, it was like calling cards. You dial the calling card, you dial the number. Ultra solve that. Mitt was D2C. We started doing other things, and I got distracted, and I was being pulled too, too far apart. I rose my hand at one point and said, look, I should be doing less and being more focused on Mint. I think had I done that earlier and not been so excited about the new shiny thing, Mint could possibly be even bigger than the $1.35 billion acquisition. But at the same time, when you're an entrepreneur thriving in an entrepreneurial environment, it's just natural that you want to go get the next big thing, because those first two, three, four steps are such big leaps. The company could really grow as a result of them if they were wins.
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Marcus
It's interesting because it feels like you've. You've changed a lot of the thinking around, quote, unquote, conventional wisdom, which doesn't always prove out to be, to be true. And what I mean by that is, like I was saying before, most people track consumer data to sell them more, you did it to save them money. There's this notion that if it costs more, it's better. You change that mindset. You talked about the word failure and trying to adjust or reimagine that word not to mean. Not to be a negative, but to associate it with risk and to associate failure with trying, trying new things. Where did that come from? Because it feels like there's like a culture there of not only doing things differently, but trying to think about concepts and how you do business differently. Kind of across. Across the board.
- [27:41]
Aaron
Yeah. It is very different from the brand and the business. So from the brand perspective, that was about, like I used to say, my team is sick of hearing. And I'm like, if everybody is over here doing this, let's be over here doing this. And just. Just by virtue of being different, we're going to get some attention.
- [28:01]
Marcus
Yeah.
- [28:01]
Aaron
So that was really the brand solution. Right. Like, that was a way we helped get this thing noticed was just by being a delta to the marketplace now from the business. I think some of this stems just from, like, sort of my work experience. Like, I came from Taco Bell. So what does a guy slinging tacos know about wireless legitimately? Nothing. Like our CEO and founder David would come up to me and give me a hard time because these things have SIM cards in them. Now there's esim, but I didn't know it had a SIM card in it. And he would like, open my phone and pull the SIM card out. I'm like, dude, you're gonna break my phone. Stop, stop, stop. But like, I didn't know anything about wireless, but what I did know at Taco Bell is we used to say we're a taco stand in a burger society. So like we are. Taco bell was like 96 share of Mexican QSR, which makes it feel like you cannot grow to 97,98. That's impossibly hard. But then it's a framing exercise. If you look at all QSR, I think Taco Bell was like 3%, maybe 4% of all QSR. And I used to say to people, look, McDonald's sells more drinks than Taco Bell is big. Now it feels like you have an opportunity to scale. So I think when you talk about doing things different, like at agency, you have to come up with creative solutions. At Taco Bell, it was about being different and embracing the uniqueness of who you are. I think that translated over at Mint. And when you have early success being disruptive and setting yourself up as the disruptor in the marketplace, you want to be doing things different. And if you can post a couple wins and it feels good, the momentum just carries you forward. And our company, testament to the founders and the leadership team, we are just like growth maniacs. I had never heard of the term hyper growth before and we sort of like coined it internally and set a five year vision around hyper growth. Where we wanted to be the billion dollar Challenger. We finished it a year early and we beat it by 350 million. So we became the $1.35 billion challenger in four years. And that that ecosystem and environment is fun to be in, but it's not easy. It's been one of the most fun places I've ever worked.
- [30:33]
Marcus
Yeah, amazing. It's a heck of a brand story. I really appreciate you coming on to tell us all about it. That's all we've got time for. Unfortunately for this episode than much. To my guests, thank you. First to Aaron.
- [30:45]
Aaron
Thank you. This was fun.
- [30:46]
Marcus
Yes, sir. Thank you to Susie.
- [30:48]
Susie
Thanks for having me.
- [30:49]
Marcus
And of course to Jeremy.
- [30:51]
Jeremy
I'm pumped up. Gonna go have some Taco Bell now for lunch.
- [30:54]
Marcus
And thanks to the whole editing crew, Victoria, John, Lance and Danny Stuart, who runs the team, and Sophie, who does our social media. Thanks to everyone for listening in. We hope to see you on Monday for Behind the Numbers and you, Mark video podcast.