Behind the Numbers: Reimagining the Creator Role — Engaging Communities Through Short-Form Video

Summary

Behind the Numbers: Reimagining the Creator Role — Engaging Communities Through Short-Form Video

In the March 21, 2025 episode of EMARKETER's "Behind the Numbers" podcast, host Marcus engages in a thought-provoking conversation with three distinguished guests: Minda Smiley, senior analyst covering social media; Emmy Lederman, analyst on the media content team; and Eisha Patel, co-founder of Kale. The discussion centers around the evolving landscape of creators and influencers, emphasizing the shift towards authentic community engagement through short-form video content.

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Introduction

Marcus kicks off the episode by warmly welcoming his guests, setting a personable tone for the conversation. After brief personal introductions, the discussion swiftly transitions from light-hearted banter to the core subject matter.

Notable Interaction:

• Marcus [00:48]: "We have with us our senior analyst covering social media based in New York, it's Minda Smiley."
• Eisha Patel [01:37]: "Originally from Southern California."
• Minda Smiley [04:10]: Shares insights about her mother's influence on her purchasing decisions.

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Fact of the Day: The Invention of the Piano

At the [05:50] mark, Marcus introduces an engaging "Fact of the Day," highlighting the invention of the piano by Bartolomeo Cristofori in 1709. This segment serves as both an educational interlude and a conversational pivot before delving into more substantial topics.

Key Highlights:

• Cristofori's innovation of the hammer action mechanism allowing dynamic expression.
• The evolution from harpsichords and clavichords to the modern piano.
• Eisha Patel [05:50]: "Anyone play?"

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Main Discussion: Reimagining the Creator Role with Kale

Introduction to Kale

At [07:32], Eisha Patel introduces Kale, a mobile application designed to empower everyday individuals to become brand advocates. Unlike traditional influencer models that rely on high-follower-count individuals, Kale focuses on rewarding genuine, everyday interactions with brands.

Eisha Patel [07:32]:

Kale is a mobile app that rewards everyday people like Emmy Minda for talking about their favorite brands on social media. So you can imagine Emmy with her Nuuly taking a couple videos, posting them on Instagram reels or TikTok and after 24 hours Kale rewards her. And for the brand Nuuly, they are getting hundreds of pieces of content from the Emmys of the world who just love Nuuly and shop there authentically.

Shift from Traditional Influencer Marketing

Marcus probes the distinction between Kale's approach and traditional influencer marketing, highlighting the focus on ordinary individuals rather than established influencers.

Marcus [08:07]:

And so this model is different because for folks who don't know Emmy, she might be an influencer. I don't know. We've only, I've only known her for a short while. But what you're talking about is just is regular folks, you know, not folks who have billions of followers...

Eisha Patel [08:28]:

Exactly. It's what people are craving today. It's what we want to see on social media. People are so sick and tired of that shiny big social media celebrity with gifted product talking about why this dress or this coffee mug is the most amazing thing in the world. So really going back to the roots of word of mouth marketing.

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Evolving Social Media Dynamics

Authenticity Over Follower Count

Emmy Lederman emphasizes the growing preference for authentic engagement over sheer follower numbers, aligning with Kale's mission.

Emmy Lederman [09:24]:

I think it's interesting because it really aligns with where a lot of social platforms are going and the ways in which consumers spend their time on these social platforms. So it's kind of moving towards favoring people who have stronger engagement and are really able to tap into more niche communities.

Reddit as a Model for Authentic Interaction

Minda Smiley brings Reddit into the conversation, showcasing it as a platform where genuine user recommendations thrive without heavy brand infiltration.

Minda Smiley [10:00]:

But really what I'm getting at is a lot of why people like Reddit is because they feel like it is just like regular people sharing, like, oh, this is why I love the coffee maker I bought last week... So I think, going back to Kale, I think there is like, sort of this push right now for people just want like, real stuff.

Terminology in the Creator Space

The terminology surrounding creators and influencers is scrutinized, leading to the adoption of "lowercase c creator" to describe everyday content creators.

Eisha Patel [13:50]:

When we first started, Kale and I started setting up creator user research chats, the users would say, oh, you should go talk to someone else. I'm not a creator. I'm a lowercase c creator. So that's what we've stuck with.

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Challenges in the Creator Economy

Influencer Fatigue and Sustainability

The discussion shifts to the challenges faced by traditional influencers, including content fatigue and the sustainability of influencer careers.

Eisha Patel [15:56]:

The fatigue is real. I mean, when you're talking about something on your social feed, it's probably happening once or twice a month compared to the influencer because they have to make ends meet.

Importance of Engagement Metrics

Emphasis is placed on the shift from quantity (impressions) to quality (engagement rates) in measuring the success of social media campaigns.

Eisha Patel [26:39]:

Brands are starting to notice and questioning what does it even mean to get a million impressions on a video if the quality of those impressions are not coming from an audience that is your target demographic. So engagement rate, the saves, the shares, those are the more meaningful actions.

Emmy Lederman [16:29]:

I've seen some research that said engagement rates are the top qualifier for brands when looking for influencers. And then it's also audience metrics and figuring out if the audience that they're engaging with is actually people that they want to be their core consumer...

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Redefining Virality and Future Trends

Eisha Patel discusses the need to redefine virality within the context of meaningful engagement and the evolving dynamics of message dissemination.

Eisha Patel [24:40]:

I think it's really interesting to start thinking about virality being redefined. Arguably the iMessage space is the most influential space. The Instagram DMs is a very influential space.

Marcus [25:43]:

I also think that's the way this can evolve because you were saying that this can be a creative outlet and you were saying that it enables staying connected with different communities and topics. It's not just reimagining what we call this new person, but what they're doing and how they're engaging with that content...

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Conclusion

As the episode draws to a close, Marcus summarizes the key takeaways, emphasizing the shift towards authentic, community-driven content creation. The guests offer final thoughts on the importance of engagement over mere visibility and the evolving roles of creators in the digital marketing landscape.

Final Remarks:

• Eisha Patel [27:45]: Highlights the importance of meaningful engagement actions that indicate purchase intent and brand consideration.
• Marcus [28:01]: Thanks the guests and the production team, wrapping up the episode on a positive note.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Eisha Patel [07:32]:

  "Kale is a mobile app that rewards everyday people like Emmy Minda for talking about their favorite brands on social media."

• Eisha Patel [08:28]:

  "It's what people are craving today. It's what we want to see on social media... going back to the roots of word of mouth marketing."

• Emmy Lederman [09:24]:

  "There's a big shift towards favoring people who have stronger engagement and are really able to tap into more niche communities."

• Eisha Patel [13:50]:

  "I'm not a creator. I'm a lowercase c creator."

• Eisha Patel [15:56]:

  "We're looking at engagement rate... saves, comments that are really driving chatter and brand advocacy."

• Eisha Patel [26:39]:

  "Engagement rate, the saves, the shares, those are the more meaningful actions that users are hitting on a piece of content that are indicating purchase intent and consideration to brands."

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This episode of "Behind the Numbers" provides an in-depth exploration of the shifting paradigms in the creator economy, highlighting the move towards authentic, community-driven engagement over traditional influencer models. By focusing on everyday creators and meaningful interactions, the conversation underscores the future direction of digital marketing and brand advocacy.

Transcript

[Marcus]

Struggling with out of stocks, phantom inventory or lack of shelf data. Traxx's signal based merchandising is designed to give real time visibility into what's happening in stores and on shelves so you can take action when and where it matters most. Visit traxretail.com eMarketer to get started today that is Trax T R A X. Hey gang. It's Friday, March 20th, 21st. Minda, Emi, Eja and listeners, welcome to behind the Numbers, any marketer video podcast made possible by tracks. I'm Marcus and today I am joined by three people for the conversation we have for you. We have with us our senior analyst covering social media based in New York, it's Minda Smiley.

[Minda Smiley]

Hey, Marcus. Happy to be here.

[Marcus]

Hello there. We also have with us with her in the studio, analyst on the media content team, also living in New York, it's Emmy Lederman.

[Emmy Lederman]

Hi, thanks for having me.

[Marcus]

Of course, of course. And finally we have joining us the co founder of Kale, living in New York too, it's Eisha Patel.

[Eisha Patel]

Marcus, great to see you.

[Marcus]

Yes, you too. Thank you all for being here. We start when we have an external guest on with the speed intro. This is to get to know our guests a little better, mainly Eisha, because Emmy and Minda have been on before you know them. So they'll answer the last question, the first three just for Eisha. Let's do it. 60 seconds on the clock, roughly. No one's keeping time, but we kind of are. Let's do it. Esha, you are based in New York, but where are you from?

[Eisha Patel]

Originally from Southern California.

[Marcus]

Very nice. What do you do in a sentence?

[Eisha Patel]

I help people translate their social value into economic value.

[Marcus]

Very good. What's your morning drink?

[Eisha Patel]

You're going to say coffee.

[Marcus]

Very nice.

[Eisha Patel]

Put it right before COVID Most people.

[Marcus]

Are Americano, which is insane.

[Eisha Patel]

I have never had one in my entire life.

[Marcus]

Anyone liked you or played?

[Minda Smiley]

You've never just had a regular coffee?

[Eisha Patel]

I've had black drip coffee. I've never had an Americano or an espresso shot.

[Minda Smiley]

Oh, my gosh, I can't even imagine.

[Emmy Lederman]

And you're so accomplished. I wasn't in my brain.

[Marcus]

But how is this possible? All right, final question. What has a friend recently influenced you to buy? This is a good question. It came from Emmy.

[Eisha Patel]

Ooh. Looking around my space, air dry clay was something that one of my friends told me about. Are you guys familiar with air dry clay?

[Minda Smiley]

No.

[Marcus]

Absolutely not. No.

[Eisha Patel]

Well, here, I made this from clay and it dries in 24 hours and you can paint it. So I have little knick knacks and mini fridge magnets. One of my friends got into it, explained it to me and then I saw it all over TikTok. So it's been a really fun way to spend my Sundays making stuff with my hand and not be on my devices.

[Marcus]

Very cool. Victoria who edits the show, she's going to love that. She took a whole class, she's been on that kiln. But this sounds way less expensive and time consuming. Emmy, how about you?

[Emmy Lederman]

I guess this is maybe a year ago now, but a lot of my friends were getting into Nuuly, which I know Minda's a fan of as well.

[Minda Smiley]

Oh yeah.

[Emmy Lederman]

But it is a, I think urban Urban Outfitters Anthropologie owned rental brand where you. It's kind of like Rent the Runway but another version of that where you get like six pieces a month. And I think that I talk about it so often because I need other people to justify the price for me as well and also get on it just makes me feel better.

[Eisha Patel]

I mean Nuuly is one of the most popular brands on kale, so it's really, really cool to see.

[Marcus]

Very nice.

[Minda Smiley]

I actually just, I just sent my months Nuuly back and I'm getting a new one tomorrow. I'm so excited. It's so exciting to get it in.

[Emmy Lederman]

The ma, but it's, it's a full time job like choosing your items.

[Minda Smiley]

Choosing your items. Going to pick up your items. Yeah, yeah. Or dropping them off.

[Emmy Lederman]

Do you do Nuuly yourself?

[Eisha Patel]

I don't, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna get on it for the spring months.

[Emmy Lederman]

Love it.

[Marcus]

Feel left out. Minda, what was a friend recently influenced you to buy?

[Minda Smiley]

Oh, geez. That's a, that's a good question. Honestly, I don't even know if this is exactly what you're asking. Like, I mean my mom is my friend so I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna call my mom and she.

[Marcus]

It's the top of the food chain. You kidding me?

[Minda Smiley]

Yeah, it's Drew best friend. She often influences me to buy like different items Joe's like, she'll be like, oh, Trader Joe's has their like new spring line in of like, you know, whatever, carrot jelly beans. And then I go and buy them. So I'm gonna go with that.

[Marcus]

Mum's the most influential. Well, they should be. All right. Very good. There are three guests. Time for the fact of the day. Who invented the piano? So this is the dumb stuff that I kind of spend my life wondering about. According to the Metropolitan Museum in New York, the first true piano was invented almost entirely by one man. Bartolomeo Cristofori. The Italian harpschord maker was born in 1655 in Padua, the Republic of Venice. Inventing the first piano whilst living In Florence in 1709, he named it the grava kemballo col piano e forte or harpsichord that plays soft and loud. The name refers to the piano's ability to change loudness according to the amount of pressure on the keys, a quality foreign to the harpsichord. Cristofori achieved that effect by replacing the plucking mechanism of the harpsichord with a hammer action capable of striking the strings with greater or lesser force. There were some flavors of a piano before you had the, the hammered dulcimer, the harpsichords, the, the clavichord. So there were a few versions of the piano, but he made, he made the piano, invented the piano. Anyone play?

[Eisha Patel]

I know.

[Emmy Lederman]

Musical. Oh, nice.

[Marcus]

Very nice.

[Eisha Patel]

Except not in New York because I don't have space for a keyboard in my apartment.

[Marcus]

Yes, no one does. Although, talking about space for pianos, you should try to go. I went on a tour of the Steinway piano factory.

[Eisha Patel]

Oh, cool.

[Marcus]

Yeah, it was remarkable. There are two factories in the world. One's in Astoria in New York and that services the Americas and there's one in Hamburg in Germany.

[Eisha Patel]

That's amazing.

[Marcus]

Everywhere else. Yeah. And they take, they walk you through the whole factory and they show you the process from start to finish. And it takes about a year, not for the tour, but for the. For to make a Steinway. It takes about a year. It's just remarkable.

[Eisha Patel]

Do they have a gift store where you can buy piano?

[Marcus]

No. Unbelievable. But they do take you into the vault of piano, the special pianos for people who can afford.

[Emmy Lederman]

Do they have a live Q and A with this guy? You're talking about the, the piano maker.

[Marcus]

The inventor who was born in 16. Yes, still around.

[Emmy Lederman]

Perfect.

[Marcus]

Yeah. Anyway, today's real topic, engaging communities through short form video. All right folks, today we're going to be having a slightly different conversation about communities and creators and how the influencer space is being reimagined, so to speak. And as I mentioned, we're joined by Eisha, who co founded a company called Kale, who is reimagining all of these different things. So we'll start with the what and the why. Eesha, what is Kale and why did you start it?

[Eisha Patel]

Kale is a mobile app that rewards everyday people like Emmy Minda for talking about their favorite brands on social media. So you can imagine Emmy with her Nuuly taking a couple videos, posting them on Instagram reels or TikTok and after 24 hours Kail rewards her. And for the brand newly, they are getting hundreds of pieces of content from the Emmys of the world who just love Nuuly and shop there authentically. Nuuly's not having to gift out hundred dollar boxes every single month to get content like traditional influencer marketing.

[Marcus]

And so this model is different because for folks who don't know Emmy, she might be an influencer. I don't know. We've only, I've only known her for a short while. But what you're talking about is just is regular folks, you know, not folks who have billions of followers or millions of followers or hundreds of thousands of followers or maybe even like tens of thousands of followers. You're talking about ordinary people, correct?

[Eisha Patel]

Exactly. It's what people are craving today. It's what we want to see on social media. People are so sick and tired of that shiny big social media celebrity with gifted product talking about why this dress or this coffee mug is the most amazing thing in the world. So really going back to the roots of Minda, your mom, Emmy, your sister, my aunt recommending something to us and us going out and buying it, you're not going to have to do loads of homework. So really the concept of kale is nothing new. It's going back to our roots of word of mouth marketing.

[Marcus]

Yeah, Emmy, when you're looking at this, this, this concept of, you know, giving the voice to the average everyday customer, what do you make of this and how this differs from the more traditional, so to speak, form of influencer marketing of being influenced by a creator.

[Emmy Lederman]

I think it's interesting because it really aligns with where a lot of social platforms are going and the ways in which consumers spend their time on these social platforms. So I think instead of just favoring influencers who have high follower counts and are really strong in the native feed and maybe have a lot of likes and comments on their posts, it's kind of moving towards favoring people who have stronger engagement and are really able to tap into kind of more niche communities. So when I think of Instagram, I barely ever post on it, but I am so active in group chats with friends, sending things back and forth. So I think that kind of aligns with what Kael's seeing in that we want to go back to the friends and family recommendations and that part of social media and preserve kind of those relationships versus just following a flashy influencer who may not be relatable.

[Minda Smiley]

Yeah. And one thing I do want to jump in and say, because this is. I think it's different, but kind of in the same vein of what we're talking about is. And it is a little bit of a shameless plug, admittedly. But I just wrote a report last week about Reddit and Reddit's really becoming quite popular by several measures. More ad spend, more users, et cetera. But really what I'm getting at is a lot of why people like Reddit is because they feel like it is just like regular people sharing, like, oh, this is why I love the coffee maker I bought last week. And people feel like it's not really super algorithmically driven, it's not AI driven. There's not, you know, Reddit is not an influencer platform in any traditional sense. So I think, you know, kind of going back to Kel, I think there is like, sort of this push right now, I think, for people. You know, people just want like, real stuff.

[Emmy Lederman]

So do you see, I think, Linda, you mentioned Reddit kind of being like the bright spot of the Internet where people still go to get actual recommendations and have natural conversations with people. Do you see brands getting involved there as taking away from that, or do you think there's a way for them to exist, the two things to exist at once?

[Minda Smiley]

I think it's tricky. I mean, Reddit certainly still has its own kind of issues as well. It's not perfect, certainly. I think one being that Reddit has long been known as a platform that is very. Its users are very adverse. So that's a different thing. But yeah, to get to your question, yeah, I do think brands infiltrating it too much could go badly or users won't be super receptive. But there is really. Yeah, like there. There's certainly a big community of people on there that are talking about products, talking about brands, and Reddit certainly has noticed that and is trying to leverage that behavior.

[Emmy Lederman]

And I think there's this idea of not taking yourself too seriously and just wanting to connect with people on Reddit that it sounds like Eisha at Kale. That's kind of a common thread where you're not trying to build an audience or a following or a career as much as you're just trying to kind of talk about something you enjoy.

[Eisha Patel]

Yeah, we really don't go after serving big influencers or social media celebrities. We go after the everyday person who has an iPhone or a smartphone and is naturally creating content through video about their day in the city or what they're buying at Trader Joe's. And those moments become the source of inspiration for their community to go check out those brands and products. And Minda, to what you were saying around just seeing real people, what we've been seeing a big shift from, is from quality of content to quantity of content. So especially on these fast moving platforms like TikTok, getting a ton of content to stay top of mind has been the transformative nature of leaning on your superfans. Because there's no way that you can go gift out a million influencers product and be top of mind. Maybe you can do that for a week, but what happens the rest of the month?

[Marcus]

Mm. For Minda's full report on Reddit, shameless. Head to eMarketer.com if you're a proper subscriber.

[Minda Smiley]

Thank you. Marcus.

[Marcus]

Do we need to think of a different word for this trend to really kind of take off? Because we have the word creative, we have the word influencer, we have the word celebrity, and it feels like we're talking about a different type of person here. So, Esha, do you, I mean, can we, can we just use those terms and redefine them to mean kind of everyone from the person with a couple of followers all the way up to billions, or do we need to eventually, do you think that the space, the industry that will come up with a new term?

[Eisha Patel]

When we first started, Kale and I started setting up creator user research chats, the users would say, oh, you should go talk to someone else. I'm not a creator. I'm a lowercase C creator. So that's what we've stuck with. I'm sure the industry will evolve. And as we've evolved, we've been targeting the app and our platform to just everyday consumers.

[Marcus]

Okay. Because you were telling me, we were chatting back and forth over email and you were saying that the word creator, the word influencer, a lot of the time doesn't have a positive connotation. And then not everyone wants to be an influencer.

[Eisha Patel]

I think the time has shifted from the wannabe Beauty Influencer in 2010-2025. People have realized it's a very lonely job. You're alone, and the pay is very unpredictable. You might get a really big brand deal this month and then be left dry for the next couple of months. And I think there was a time between 2015 and 2020 when everyone wanted that. And what we've noticed is Just a slowdown of that over the last couple of years because it's just so hard to make that a reality because the platforms are saturated.

[Minda Smiley]

Yeah, yeah. I think like Digiday actually wrote an article recently. It was like they interviewed a creator who was like looking for a 9 to 5 job and I was like, wow, everything comes full circle now they're like looking for just like a regular jobs, so.

[Marcus]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Emmy Lederman]

And it feels like there's one side of the industry where it's the creator economy is moving towards entertainment and a lot of people want to set up creator upfront so that you can have regularly scheduled content sponsored by brands and really have this scheduled like more 9 to 5 esque role. But it seems like for the people that are just trying to be influencers, that type of career isn't necessarily sustainable if you're just focused on building trust and product pushing. Because if you're constantly introducing a new brand to your followers, there's probably gonna be a point where they're like, you just promoted this competitor two days ago. How likely is it that you're actually using this product as well?

[Eisha Patel]

I think the fatigue is real. I mean, when you're talking about something on your social feed, it's probably happening once or twice a month compared to the influencer because they have to make ends meet. They're posting about a couple different brands every single day, so their impressions are being diluted. So what we're really looking at and what we found brands to be shifting towards is engagement rate. It's that saves the shares, the comments that are really driving chatter and brand advocacy.

[Emmy Lederman]

Yeah, I've seen some research that said engagement rates are the top qualifier for brands when looking for influencers. And then it's also audience metrics and figuring out if the audience that they're engaging with is actually people that they want to be their core consumer, people that they see converting. And I'm seeing a lot of also updates like with Instagram, for example, just rolled out the sponsored comment feature where creators can, instead of creators posting a branded thing, they can post a sponsored comment. This is a little bit of an aside, but would love to hear your thoughts on that. And if that's moving us more towards that authentic content or maybe doing the.

[Eisha Patel]

Opposite, I think when it comes to these different levers, it's, I think leaning into that everyday person. I might not want to post video content, but I'm okay writing something and endorsing something because I bought it five times in the last month. So I think the Comments are interesting way to further democratize the marketing budgets across people who are actually using the product. So I'm excited to see what happens with that rollout. For Instagram.

[Marcus]

We talked about creators, influences. I went and I was trying to see who is a creator, how many people consider themselves creator. I found some 20, 23 research. So a little bit older than we would have liked. But From Mintel showing 19% of social media users consider themselves either a creator or an influencer, that number goes up for younger people. For Gen z, that's about 28%. And there's going to have varying degrees of obviously creators or influences within that. But that means that even if you're looking at the younger people, three quarters of people don't consider themselves one. But that's, that's the very audience which, you know, we're, we're talking about. They're the audience to which people that people listen to every day and they're happy getting recommendations from. You don't need a huge following for that to be true. I also, Eisha, you mentioned something in a conversation we previously had where you were saying that this can be a creative outlet and you were saying that it enables staying connected with different communities and topics. And so it's not just reimagining what we call this new person, but.

[Minda Smiley]

What.

[Marcus]

They'Re doing and how they're engaging with, with that content with that product is changing as well. It doesn't have to be. You're just talking about this to promote it. It can be. You're talking about this because you care about it, because you want to stay connected to the community.

[Eisha Patel]

Yeah. So when we first started the research to build out Kale, we started talking to these recreational users on TikTok and Instagram. This was back in 2020. And we would call up these folks and just say, hey, like you're posting your day in the life of video, or you really love coffee or you love yoga. Your entire page is. But you don't do any sponsored deals or any brand deals. Why are you posting? And the yogi would say, hey, I just really love my community. People ask me questions on where I get my yoga mat. You see that trickle down into the comments section. And so that's when the spark really went off on. There's everyday people, because the smartphone has been democratized, that are creating content. Whether we call them creators or photographers, we can debate that to no end, but they are generating content for the purpose of staying connected. They feel proud and a sense of purpose by having this community that they're seen as an expert for.

[Marcus]

Emmy and or mind, how have you both seen social content, the social content that consumers are looking at changing over recent years or months, and how will it change potentially?

[Minda Smiley]

Yeah, this doesn't exactly answer your question, but it was something I was just thinking. Sorry, apologies. I was just thinking, like, kind of going back to this idea of, like, what is a creator? What is an influencer, as we've been talking about, I think that there is a lot of gray area, right? I mean, because our numbers show, you know, the creator economy, you know, influencer marketing spend is growing. We're seeing massive growth. You know, it is slowing a bit because the creator economy, you know, it's maturing. And so we're seeing growth slow a little bit, but there's a lot of growth there. Stone. So I think. But that being said, everything that we're talking about, a lot of these trends, they are true. These are real things that people are seeing in the marketplace in terms of this fatigue and whatnot. So I think it kind of goes to show, someone with 300 followers who takes on a brand deal here and there through a platform like Kale, they might not consider themselves a creator, but maybe to a brand that's part of their creator budget. So there's all these kind of weird nuances, I think, happening constantly within the creator economy. Whether we're debating the difference between an influencer and a creator, or how brands kind of budget this stuff out, how people themselves view themselves, if they do identify as a creator, if they think that's a good thing or a bad thing, it's sort of this always changing, always evolving landscape, which I think is really interesting. And even to your current question, the one you actually just asked Marcus about, the social content itself, that's always evolving. And I think now even creators are having to address that. In terms of. As we're seeing more happen with NDMs within private messaging, creators are having to think about, okay, well, how do I get in those DMs then? In a way that, you know, people will want me to be in there.

[Eisha Patel]

Minda, I think you're hitting the nail on its head. On one side of the marketplace, you have these users who create content for fun. They are not defining themselves as creators. On the other hand, the space that we play in for selling our solution to brands, it comes from their creator marketing dollars. And so, Emmy, back to your example, Emmy, the newly creator, or Emmy, is a newly creator for the brand, but she doesn't consider herself because she has A full time job at eMarketer. And so as we think about the evolving landscape it's been really, really interesting to see a brand come to us and say hey, Instead of paying $20,000 for one TikTok video, can we give it to you guys and you can start to reward our superfans and put our marketing dollars back into the pockets of our customers.

[Emmy Lederman]

Going back to like just the nature of the content and in feed posts. This could 100% be just wishful thinking on my end but I think that there is a lot more awareness now about like the detrimental effects of social media on mental health. So I think that having seeing more of social media be kind of interest based and niche communities opposed to let's all engage with this like hot person that's posting on the static social feed I think has become and with the rise of the platforms favoring video I think that supports that the storytelling and kind of approach to communities and interests versus we're all consuming the same content. You know, example, I just finished this season of the Traitors. Not sure if anyone else watched it but I just noticed that there was so much content in like private messages and just on my feed geared towards like predictions about the Traitors. Now it's White Lotus. So it feels like it's a great opportunity for CTV as well because there's such a nice correlation between what we're watching on CTV and what we're consuming on social media. And I also think it's like kind of a wholesome, positive use of social media.

[Marcus]

Isha final question from me. When you're thinking about the rest of this year, the future, what are some of the, or the most important I should say theme for you? When you kind of, you put kale to one size, you go out for a walk, you know, you're company in the space here but you're going out for a walk and you're having these ideas about the wider space that you, that you live in. What do you think's most worth paying attention to?

[Eisha Patel]

I think it's really interesting to start thinking about virality being redefined. Arguably the imessage space is the most influential space. The Instagram DMs is a very influential, influential space. So what we're thinking a lot about at Kail is how does the message get out there about different brands and products? Obviously we are seeing it very loud and clear with the video space, with the photo space. Emmy brought up the Instagram comment space. The truth of the matter is brands don't do well in terms of selling, because there are 101 brands popping into your feed. Influencers are considered brands. So that leaves the everyday person, whether that's their address book, which I think is a really powerful symbol of their influence and what communities they can get into, or Reddit communities that they manage. It's going to be interesting to see where people are talking about topics and interests, like Emmy was saying, that are near and dear to them.

[Marcus]

Yeah, I kind of think about this similarly to musicians. You have some shows like Voice or X Factor, where there's a chance that someone's going to get noticed and they go from being nobody to the person of the moment. But a lot of the time that's kind of a flash in the pan and a lot of time you don't hear from them. Again. Most musicians, it's sustainable, it's slow, it's steady, it's. It's constant. And then they become. They become somebody. But that's kind of how I look at this space is, you know, you're talking about virality being redefined. We were talking before and you were saying you spend a ton of money, a ton of effort on this thing and it gets, it gets wiped past and it's gone, versus constantly reminding people about your brand. And a lot of the time it takes a few reminders before someone pulls the trigger on a purchase anyway. So that just being a more sustainable brand conversation.

[Eisha Patel]

Yeah. In addition to brands measuring success on social via engagement rate, what we've seen is people are desperate to stay top of mind and it's quantity over quality. You can art direct and workshop and influencer video to perfection. And there's going to be so many people that land on it for half a second and move on. And so a lot of beauty brands, their measure of success is when a user is on beauty talk. I want to be the first three videos that people swipe through versus one that randomly gets a million views. The social media space has been innovated upon and evolving, but something that we've been noticing is how easy it is to buy impressions. Brands are starting to notice and questioning what does it even mean to get a million impressions on a video if the quality of those impressions are not coming from an audience that is your target demographic. So engagement rate, the saves, the shares, those are the more meaningful actions that users are hitting on a piece of content that are indicating purchase intent and consideration to brands.

[Marcus]

Yeah, perfect. Well, unfortunately, that's why we have to leave the conversation, but thank you so much to my. To my three guests for hanging out with me today. Thank you. First to Isha.

[Eisha Patel]

Thank you. Marcus.

[Marcus]

Of course. Yeah. Thank you to Emmy.

[Emmy Lederman]

Thank you.

[Marcus]

Thank you to Minda.

[Minda Smiley]

Thanks.

[Marcus]

And thanks to the A team, our editing crew. They made me call them that. Victoria, John, Lance and Danny Stuart, who runs the team. Sophie does our social media. Thanks to everyone for listening in to the behind the Numbers show and E Mark to video podcast made possible by Trax. We'll be back on Monday. Happiest of weekends.