Behind the Numbers: Reimagining the Creator Role — Engaging Communities Through Short-Form Video

In the March 21, 2025 episode of EMARKETER's "Behind the Numbers" podcast, host Marcus engages in a thought-provoking conversation with three distinguished guests: Minda Smiley, senior analyst covering social media; Emmy Lederman, analyst on the media content team; and Eisha Patel, co-founder of Kale. The discussion centers around the evolving landscape of creators and influencers, emphasizing the shift towards authentic community engagement through short-form video content.

Introduction

Marcus kicks off the episode by warmly welcoming his guests, setting a personable tone for the conversation. After brief personal introductions, the discussion swiftly transitions from light-hearted banter to the core subject matter.

Notable Interaction:

• Marcus [00:48]: "We have with us our senior analyst covering social media based in New York, it's Minda Smiley."
• Eisha Patel [01:37]: "Originally from Southern California."
• Minda Smiley [04:10]: Shares insights about her mother's influence on her purchasing decisions.

Fact of the Day: The Invention of the Piano

At the [05:50] mark, Marcus introduces an engaging "Fact of the Day," highlighting the invention of the piano by Bartolomeo Cristofori in 1709. This segment serves as both an educational interlude and a conversational pivot before delving into more substantial topics.

Key Highlights:

• Cristofori's innovation of the hammer action mechanism allowing dynamic expression.
• The evolution from harpsichords and clavichords to the modern piano.
• Eisha Patel [05:50]: "Anyone play?"

Main Discussion: Reimagining the Creator Role with Kale

Introduction to Kale

At [07:32], Eisha Patel introduces Kale, a mobile application designed to empower everyday individuals to become brand advocates. Unlike traditional influencer models that rely on high-follower-count individuals, Kale focuses on rewarding genuine, everyday interactions with brands.

Eisha Patel [07:32]:

Kale is a mobile app that rewards everyday people like Emmy Minda for talking about their favorite brands on social media. So you can imagine Emmy with her Nuuly taking a couple videos, posting them on Instagram reels or TikTok and after 24 hours Kale rewards her. And for the brand Nuuly, they are getting hundreds of pieces of content from the Emmys of the world who just love Nuuly and shop there authentically.

Shift from Traditional Influencer Marketing

Marcus probes the distinction between Kale's approach and traditional influencer marketing, highlighting the focus on ordinary individuals rather than established influencers.

Marcus [08:07]:

And so this model is different because for folks who don't know Emmy, she might be an influencer. I don't know. We've only, I've only known her for a short while. But what you're talking about is just is regular folks, you know, not folks who have billions of followers...

Eisha Patel [08:28]:

Exactly. It's what people are craving today. It's what we want to see on social media. People are so sick and tired of that shiny big social media celebrity with gifted product talking about why this dress or this coffee mug is the most amazing thing in the world. So really going back to the roots of word of mouth marketing.

Evolving Social Media Dynamics

Authenticity Over Follower Count

Emmy Lederman emphasizes the growing preference for authentic engagement over sheer follower numbers, aligning with Kale's mission.

Emmy Lederman [09:24]:

I think it's interesting because it really aligns with where a lot of social platforms are going and the ways in which consumers spend their time on these social platforms. So it's kind of moving towards favoring people who have stronger engagement and are really able to tap into more niche communities.

Reddit as a Model for Authentic Interaction

Minda Smiley brings Reddit into the conversation, showcasing it as a platform where genuine user recommendations thrive without heavy brand infiltration.

Minda Smiley [10:00]:

But really what I'm getting at is a lot of why people like Reddit is because they feel like it is just like regular people sharing, like, oh, this is why I love the coffee maker I bought last week... So I think, going back to Kale, I think there is like, sort of this push right now for people just want like, real stuff.

Terminology in the Creator Space

The terminology surrounding creators and influencers is scrutinized, leading to the adoption of "lowercase c creator" to describe everyday content creators.

Eisha Patel [13:50]:

When we first started, Kale and I started setting up creator user research chats, the users would say, oh, you should go talk to someone else. I'm not a creator. I'm a lowercase c creator. So that's what we've stuck with.

Challenges in the Creator Economy

Influencer Fatigue and Sustainability

The discussion shifts to the challenges faced by traditional influencers, including content fatigue and the sustainability of influencer careers.

Eisha Patel [15:56]:

The fatigue is real. I mean, when you're talking about something on your social feed, it's probably happening once or twice a month compared to the influencer because they have to make ends meet.

Importance of Engagement Metrics

Emphasis is placed on the shift from quantity (impressions) to quality (engagement rates) in measuring the success of social media campaigns.

Eisha Patel [26:39]:

Brands are starting to notice and questioning what does it even mean to get a million impressions on a video if the quality of those impressions are not coming from an audience that is your target demographic. So engagement rate, the saves, the shares, those are the more meaningful actions.

Emmy Lederman [16:29]:

I've seen some research that said engagement rates are the top qualifier for brands when looking for influencers. And then it's also audience metrics and figuring out if the audience that they're engaging with is actually people that they want to be their core consumer...

Redefining Virality and Future Trends

Eisha Patel discusses the need to redefine virality within the context of meaningful engagement and the evolving dynamics of message dissemination.

Eisha Patel [24:40]:

I think it's really interesting to start thinking about virality being redefined. Arguably the iMessage space is the most influential space. The Instagram DMs is a very influential space.

Marcus [25:43]:

I also think that's the way this can evolve because you were saying that this can be a creative outlet and you were saying that it enables staying connected with different communities and topics. It's not just reimagining what we call this new person, but what they're doing and how they're engaging with that content...

Conclusion

As the episode draws to a close, Marcus summarizes the key takeaways, emphasizing the shift towards authentic, community-driven content creation. The guests offer final thoughts on the importance of engagement over mere visibility and the evolving roles of creators in the digital marketing landscape.

Final Remarks:

• Eisha Patel [27:45]: Highlights the importance of meaningful engagement actions that indicate purchase intent and brand consideration.
• Marcus [28:01]: Thanks the guests and the production team, wrapping up the episode on a positive note.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Eisha Patel [07:32]:

  "Kale is a mobile app that rewards everyday people like Emmy Minda for talking about their favorite brands on social media."

• Eisha Patel [08:28]:

  "It's what people are craving today. It's what we want to see on social media... going back to the roots of word of mouth marketing."

• Emmy Lederman [09:24]:

  "There's a big shift towards favoring people who have stronger engagement and are really able to tap into more niche communities."

• Eisha Patel [13:50]:

  "I'm not a creator. I'm a lowercase c creator."

• Eisha Patel [15:56]:

  "We're looking at engagement rate... saves, comments that are really driving chatter and brand advocacy."

• Eisha Patel [26:39]:

  "Engagement rate, the saves, the shares, those are the more meaningful actions that users are hitting on a piece of content that are indicating purchase intent and consideration to brands."

This episode of "Behind the Numbers" provides an in-depth exploration of the shifting paradigms in the creator economy, highlighting the move towards authentic, community-driven engagement over traditional influencer models. By focusing on everyday creators and meaningful interactions, the conversation underscores the future direction of digital marketing and brand advocacy.