Behind the Numbers: Technology Trends for 2025—AI Agents and the Smart Glasses Portal Into Spatial Computing | Jan 21, 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: Behind the Numbers: Technology Trends for 2025—AI Agents and the Smart Glasses Portal Into Spatial Computing

Podcast Information

• Title: Behind the Numbers: an EMARKETER Podcast
• Host/Author: eMarketer
• Episode Title: Behind the Numbers: Technology Trends for 2025—AI Agents and the Smart Glasses Portal Into Spatial Computing
• Release Date: January 21, 2025

Overview In the January 21, 2025 episode of Behind the Numbers, eMarketer’s podcast delves into the pivotal technology trends poised to shape the digital landscape by 2025. Hosted by Marcus, the episode features insightful discussions with Jacob Bourne, a technology analyst based in Northern California, and Gajo Sevilla, the senior editor for technology and AI briefings in New York City. The episode adopts a "Great British Bake Off" format, breaking down each trend through three rounds: Signature Take, How It Will Technically Play Out, and Show-Stopping Argument. The two primary trends explored are Agentic AI (AI Agents) and Smart Glasses as Gateways to Spatial Computing.

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1. Signature Take: AI Agents and Smart Glasses

Jacob Bourne on AI Agents Jacob introduces Agentic AI, emphasizing its potential to revolutionize AI adoption while simultaneously escalating associated risks. He defines AI agents as autonomous tools capable of performing complex, multi-step tasks without constant human prompting. "They can take on tasks like online shopping, writing code, booking flights, managing your investments for you," Jacob explains (05:15).

Gajo Sevilla on Smart Glasses Gajo focuses on Smart Glasses, projecting them as the ideal platform integrating AI and mixed reality for both consumer and business applications. He references CES 2025, where numerous smart glasses models were showcased, suggesting that these devices might achieve the impact of smartwatches over the next decade. "We're probably going to see them become not the huge thing in 2025, but I think for at least the next decade, something as impactful as maybe the smartwatch has been in the past 10 years," Gajo states (04:54).

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2. How It Will Technically Play Out

AI Agents: Expanding Capabilities and Risks Jacob delves deeper into the mechanics and implications of AI agents. He highlights their ability to operate autonomously, navigating tasks by understanding broader goals. "They have the ability to understand broader goals and autonomously determine how to achieve them," Jacob notes (06:16). He discusses the commercial deployment by major companies like Oracle, Salesforce, and Microsoft, alongside OpenAI's cautious rollout due to potential security vulnerabilities such as prompt injection (07:48).

Gajo addresses the workforce impact of Agentic AI, referencing Clem Delange of Hugging Face predicting the first major public AI protest in 2025. "AI agents can be very helpful, but might also be very disruptive," Jacob remarks (09:12). Gajo concurs, pointing out that AI agents could replace jobs, especially in coding and programming, leading to significant workforce shifts (09:45).

Smart Glasses: Integration and Adoption Challenges Gajo elaborates on the current state and future trajectory of smart glasses. He compares them to past AI gadgets that struggled with connectivity and utility but points out that modern smart glasses like Meta Ray Bans are more user-friendly and stylish. "Smart glasses are lightweight. They're stylish. You can wear them out in the world without being conspicuous," Jacob adds (13:00). However, challenges such as limited battery life and the perception of smart glasses as solutions in search of problems persist (14:14).

Jacob highlights privacy concerns as a significant barrier to smart glasses adoption. "Are they filming me?" he questions, noting that while not all smart glasses come equipped with cameras, the fear remains prevalent among potential users (12:10).

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3. Show-Stopping Argument: Weighing the Impacts

AI Agents: Balancing Utility and Security The discussion shifts to the broader societal implications of AI agents. Jacob warns of AI agents communicating with each other, potentially leading to a scenario where AI becomes both the producer and consumer of content. "AI agents communicating with each other... it's going to be a risk multiplier for AI," he cautions (18:44). Marcus references Gartner’s research predicting that by 2028, 15% of daily business decisions will be made autonomously through agentic AI, alongside a 25% increase in enterprise breaches tied to AI agent abuse (21:12). Jacob emphasizes the need for robust human oversight to mitigate these risks.

Smart Glasses: Fashion vs. Functionality Gajo argues that the success of smart glasses will hinge on their integration into established ecosystems, likening their potential trajectory to that of the Apple Watch. "Apple never really comes in as the first mover. I think pebble may have been the first one, but in 10 years they totally dominated the market," Gajo asserts (15:30). He envisions major tech players like Apple possibly releasing fashion-forward smart glasses that seamlessly integrate with their existing products, enhancing user adoption through ecosystem synergy (16:33).

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4. Conclusion: Crowning the Winner

After thorough deliberation, Marcus concludes the episode by awarding Agentic AI as the standout trend for 2025. He underscores the practical applications and transformative potential of AI agents across both consumer and enterprise sectors. Highlighting Deutsche Telekom's rollout of an AI agent for internal queries as an example, Marcus emphasizes AI agents' utility in streamlining operations and enhancing efficiency (22:10). While acknowledging the promising trajectory of smart glasses, Marcus remains skeptical about their immediate impact compared to the already growing momentum behind agentic AI.

Winner: Agentic AI (AI Agents)

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Notable Quotes

• Jacob Bourne (05:15): "AI agents are autonomous tools capable of performing complex, multi-step tasks without constant human prompting."

• Marcus (06:05): "Their ability to execute complex multi-step tasks independently with minimal human oversight is a game-changer."

• Gajo Sevilla (04:54): "Smart glasses are emerging to be the Goldilocks platform for integrating AI and mixed reality into both consumer and business applications."

• Jacob Bourne (12:10): "The privacy issue seems insurmountable. People don’t want every time you look at someone with these glasses, are they filming me?"

• Marcus (21:12): "By 2028, at least 15% of daily business decisions will be made autonomously through agentic AI, up from 0% last year."

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Additional Resources For a deeper dive into the other three major technology trends highlighted in Jacob Bourne’s report, Pro subscribers can visit eMarketer.com and search for "tech trends to watch in 2025". Topics include:

1. AI and Design Advances
2. Reshaping How Consumers Engage
3. Link in the Show Notes

Closing Remarks The episode wraps up with acknowledgments to guests Jacob Bourne and Gajo Sevilla, as well as the eMarketer team members Victoria, John, Lance, Danny Stuart, and Sophie for their contributions. Listeners are encouraged to tune in for future episodes, including the upcoming Reimagining Retail show hosted by Sarah Lebo.

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Timestamp References

• 05:15 Jacob introduces AI agents.
• 04:54 Gajo discusses smart glasses.
• 06:16 Definition of AI agents’ capabilities.
• 07:48 Deployment challenges and prompt injection risks.
• 09:12 Clem Delange's prediction on AI protests.
• 09:45 Impact of AI agents on the workforce.
• 12:10 Privacy concerns with smart glasses.
• 13:00 Advantages of smart glasses.
• 14:14 Challenges facing smart glasses.
• 15:30 Smart glasses market growth and Apple’s potential entry.
• 16:33 Integration of smart glasses into ecosystems.
• 18:44 AI agents communicating with each other.
• 21:12 Gartner’s predictions on AI agents.
• 22:10 Example of Deutsche Telekom’s AI agent deployment.

Transcript

[Jacob Bourne]

The year of the AI agent, also known as agentic AI. And what that means is the rise of these or the sort of the commercial deployment of these AI agents is going to really supercharge AI adoption and also add to the risks of AI.

[Marcus]

Hey, gang. It's Tuesday, January 21st. Jacob Gargio and listeners, I hope you all had really nice long weekends because of MLK Day. Welcome to behind the Numbers, an E marketer video podcast. I'm Marcus and today I'm joined by two people. First off, we have our technology analyst based in Northern California, It's Jacob Bourne.

[Jacob Bourne]

Hey, Marcus, thanks for having me.

[Marcus]

Hey, fella. And we're also joined by our senior editor for our technology and AI briefings. He is based on the other coast in New York City. It's Gajo Sevilla.

[Gajo Sevilla]

Hey, Marcus, Happy to be here. Good to see you.

[Marcus]

Hey, chap. Yes. Coming to us live from our studio over there, gents, we start with the fact of the day. Which animal has the fastest metabolism? This is gonna be very hard to guess. There's a lot of animals, so I'll just tell you.

[Jacob Bourne]

Maybe a koala bear.

[Marcus]

Oh, because they were always eating. That's.

[Jacob Bourne]

Or panda. Panda bear. I mean, is it the koala or.

[Marcus]

The panda that always.

[Jacob Bourne]

I think it's the panda that's always eating the eucalyptus leaves.

[Marcus]

Okay. Like 90 of their life is spent eating. But that's a really good guess because of that. Because of that behavior. So I'll explain. Stanford University notes that hummingbirds, with their tiny bodies, high level of activity, have the highest metabolic rates of any animal, roughly a dozen times that of a pigeon. Because pigeons never fly anywhere. Has anyone ever seen a pigeon fly?

[Jacob Bourne]

Coast a little bit.

[Marcus]

They do that little jump thing to get out of the way, rush them. Not I've rushed a pigeon. But anyway, because of hummingbirds, because they're fast, metabolic rate. They eat every 10 to 15 minutes, right? Yeah. And consume one and a half to three times their body weight in food per day. What a life.

[Gajo Sevilla]

But they're always moving too, right? So, yeah, it's perfect.

[Jacob Bourne]

If I'm not mistaken, I think if they don't eat within a pretty short period of time, they will die. Like 45 minutes or something.

[Marcus]

Oh, my goodness.

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah.

[Marcus]

That is dark. All right. On that. I was just about to quote me on that.

[Jacob Bourne]

It might not be 45 minutes, but maybe not.

[Marcus]

It's stressful.

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah.

[Marcus]

Quick, I need a meal. You can understand why people would be hangry if that was the case.

[Jacob Bourne]

Right.

[Marcus]

Anyway, today's real topic the great behind the numbers take off. Technology trends and predictions for 2025. Speaking of hangry, we should get through this as fast as possible because Garja was telling us if we don't finish in 20 minutes, he's going to start throwing things.

[Gajo Sevilla]

No, I might just die. Just right here.

[Jacob Bourne]

Right? Yeah.

[Marcus]

Blackout like the hummingbird. This is the great behind the numbers takeoff. Technology trends and predictions for 2025. Great British Bake off style. For today's episode, in which our takers or bakers will be cooking up one trend each for you, three rounds signature take is round one. Round two, we have the how it will technically play out challenge and round three is the show stopping argument. Let's meet the contestants predictions. Jacob, you're going first in each round. What's your prediction for us?

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah, so my prediction is that 2025 is going to be the year of the AI agent, also known as agentic AI. And what that means is the rise of these or the sort of the commercial deployment of these AI agents is going to really supercharge AI adoption and also add to the risks of AI and gaje.

[Marcus]

What will you be cooking up for us?

[Gajo Sevilla]

So my take is all about smart glasses. So they're emerging to be sort of the Goldilocks platform for integrating AI and mixed reality into both consumer and business applications. Our colleague Lisa Hayes went to CES last week and she saw a ton of smart glasses of every kind of make. Right. And so we're probably going to see them become not the huge thing in 2025, but I think for at least the next decade, something as impactful as maybe the smartwatch has been in the past 10 years.

[Marcus]

All right, gents, let's tuck into these two trends a little bit more. Round one signature take. Our chefs will have one minute to explain the premise of their trend. So let's go with Jacob. He's talking about agentic AI will further spur AI adoption while adding to the risks. So, Jacob, tell us a bit more about this.

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah. So just first of all, what are AI agents? It's basically their AI tools that instead of like a chatbot where you're constantly prompting each step, the tools actually can act in the background on your behalf. So they're much more autonomous. They can take on tasks like online shopping, writing code, booking flights, managing your investments for you. And so the more. The more autonomous they are, the more they can take on, you know, more tasks they can take on without you needing to say, do X, Y and.

[Marcus]

Z and that really quickly you had a really great definition in your report on this and I liked the way you said their ability to execute complex multi step tasks independently with you say with minimal human oversight.

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah.

[Marcus]

Oh, and actually you also say that they have the ability to understand broader goals and autonomously determine how to achieve them, which I thought was very interesting language as well. So.

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah, and understand in heavy quotes, right? Like yes, yes, they can take, you know, they have to know how to, you know, navigate the Internet, for example, in order to book a flight. So there's a just a higher degree of capabilities and sort of quote unquote understanding.

[Marcus]

Yeah, yeah, but please.

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah, so basically. Yeah. So why is 2025 going to be the year of the AI agent? I think it's because the capabilities are, have, they have matured a lot more. We're getting to the point where we're seeing companies like Oracle, Salesforce, Microsoft actually deploy these AI agents with varying capabilities. Now part of the reason why we haven't seen more deployment is that it really exacerbates the underlying risks of AI. So even though they can make AI a lot more useful, there are a lot of risks. So for example, OpenAI, which has been talking about AI agents for, for a long time now, they've only now started to kind of dip their toes into, into deploying it. Actually just today they, they talked about releasing this thing called tasks, which can, you know, very kind of light agentic behavior. And the reason why is because there's a thing called prompt injection where you know, a bad actor could, you know, insert some malicious code into the, into the AI agent and then instead of booking a flight for you, it's stealing your identity in the background and you're not even aware of it. So there's a much higher ceiling for safeguards for AI agents than regular chatbots. But still you can see how an AI that can just do things for you without you needing to tell it could be very, very useful. And not just for consumers, but for companies that want to free up their employer schedules to take on more higher valued tasks.

[Marcus]

I think you had this in your, in your report, but companies hoping that AI agents can help them with a lot of different tasks. Around 70% of organizations saying that they were interested in AI agents that can evaluate and rewrite code, create draft reports and iterate on them and research Internet content, according to Capgem Research Institute. So they're expecting a lot from these things. Gaja really quickly before we go to your take for, for round one, Kit Eaton of Inc. Wrote a piece about Clem Delange, CEO and co founder of Hugging Hugging Face, which machine learning and data science platform. He made some notably accurate AI predictions in 2024 and he had a list for 2025. One of them was he thinks there's going to be the first major public protest related to AI. Jacob just mentioned that these things, AI agents can be very helpful, but might also be very disruptive. What do you make of that prediction?

[Gajo Sevilla]

Yeah, I think there's something to consider there, especially since a lot of companies are looking at agentic AI as a replacement for actual jobs. Right. So I mean, what can these agents do? They can carry out tasks and if you can set a predetermined number of tasks that are usually attributed to workers, say coders or programmers, I mean, then you can sort of see more a wider impact on, on the workforce.

[Marcus]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gajo Sevilla]

So that, that could be, you know, that could be part of that.

[Marcus]

Yeah. All right, let's move to your take Gaje for round one, which is about smart glasses and how they're going to emerge as the gateway to mass market spatial computing.

[Gajo Sevilla]

Yeah, so in, in 2024 we saw a lot of these AI gadgets like AI pins, the, the rabbit R1 just to name a few, and these kind of missed just another device that you needed to have connected to your phone. With regards to, you know, smart glasses, as we've seen from the Meta Ray Bans, they're generally inexpensive and even users that don't need, say prescription eyeglasses are likely to get smart frames or you know, ass sunglasses. So, you know, there is a less steep way towards adoption for, for this kind of product. And we've seen from, you know, from the way a lot of people have reacted to, to say that the Meta Ray Bans and similar products, that it's something that could more easily be adopted into people's lives. It also does have some enterprise applications now. It does have some limitations too because aid does need a connection, you know, to the Internet, to your phone. Battery life is very limited at this point and you know, it's, it's still an extra solution looking for a problem to solve right now. But you know, as this, as these technologies get better, I foresee them being adapted, you know, more steadily.

[Marcus]

And yeah, it's, I mean really, really quickly. I mean Jacob Gaja has mentioned it's a, it's a solution looking for a problem. That seems to be the case for me. I, I think the, I understand kind of the like point of view content creation is interesting and for creators that might be a Useful reason to. To buy a pair of these. But the pri. For me, the privacy issue seems insurmountable. I mean, people, I don't think they want every, you know, every time you look at someone with these glasses, you could be thinking to yourself, are they filming me?

[Gajo Sevilla]

Yeah. I have to say, though, not. Not all of them have cameras. So we're seeing some that just have assistive technologies.

[Marcus]

Oh, interesting.

[Gajo Sevilla]

Okay, so they do have speakers, they do have microphones. But yeah, the camera thing I think is it's going to be a divisive issue.

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah. And of course, you don't always automatically know which smart glasses have cameras or not. If you're someone just public seeing someone with a pair of glasses on. I mean, I think so many things in the tech industry are like, they release products and oftentimes they seem like solutions in search of problems. And like other tech products, there's often privacy issues with them. Now that doesn't always stop them from becoming popular or at least getting adopted. So I think smart glasses, the strength of smart glasses are over just other AI assistants, like the Humane Pin, for example, is that it's more than just a device to host an AI assistant. It also has that ar, those AR features. Unlike a VR headset that gives you that virtual experience, they're lightweight. Smart glasses are lightweight. They're stylish. You can wear them out in the world without being conspicuous. I think that the smart glasses, while it might be true that they're a solution in search of a problem, they solve other problems that other tech products haven't been able to solve, at least from a consumer adoption standpoint, I think. And so while I don't see smart glasses replacing the smartphone in terms of being this next big ubiquitous tech device, I think we are going to see a lot of traction in terms of consumers buying smart glasses. They're relatively inexpensive products. You have the AR plus the AI features for many of them, and you know, they're inconspicuous, lightweight, and someone might not even know that you. That you have smart glasses.

[Marcus]

Yeah.

[Jacob Bourne]

So I think all those reasons, I think, are going to be a strong basis for consumer adoption.

[Marcus]

So, I mean, we've already found ourselves in round two, which is a nice transition. The how it would technically play out challenge. Explain a bit more detail about. About these different trends. So we'll, we'll keep going. Gaja, stay with yours for, for a second. Because Jacob had written in his report that Apple is likely to enter the smart glasses fray eventually. What might that look like and how much do you see that moving the needle?

[Gajo Sevilla]

Yeah. That'll be a big one because as you know, Apple never really comes in as the first mover. And again for me, the closest parallel are smartwatches. So they weren't the first smartwatch with the Apple watch. I think pebble may have been the first one, but in 10 years they totally dominated the market to the extent that they outsold just regular digital watches. Right. So yeah, I would expect Apple, possibly Google, even Samsung to get in on this market. And again, it could take 10 years before it really becomes mass adoption. In fact, I think the CTA said the market is expected to grow for smart glasses from 5 billion in 2022 to 231 billion by 2032.

[Marcus]

Wow. So yeah, there was some research saying the overall AR headset market worldwide expected to triple from 2023 to 2028. That was from Artillery Intelligence. So it seems like a market that is taking off with Apple. Is it more ecosystem that's going to sell them or is it something that they're going to do technically that you imagine it's going to be better than the others?

[Gajo Sevilla]

You know, they've, they've thrown their weight behind mixed reality, but that's been slow, that's been a flop, sad to say. So I think they need to look down market and maybe something that's not as expensive, not as connected, but has similar hooks into their ecosystem.

[Marcus]

Similar.

[Gajo Sevilla]

Yeah. And that's also fashion forward because as we know that's kind of Apple's big aspiration. They want to be a vogue brand. Right. And so I could, could totally see them kind of get behind that, even if it's just an accessory to the iPhone at first.

[Marcus]

Yeah. Jacob, let's move to your trend for round two quickly here. So could you start by giving us kind of the lay of the land? Who's doing what when it comes to commercializing AI agents?

[Jacob Bourne]

Well, I mean, yeah, we're seeing again Oracle Salesforce and Microsoft have released AI agent platforms really targeting the enterprise. Google is working on an AI agent project though. They just at CES announced a Google automotive AI agent for Mercedes Benz, which that's going to be a consumer product. OpenAI plans to release AI agents this year, but they're moving slowly again for that same reason I mentioned earlier about the risk involved of bad actors taking over an AI agent and doing malicious things with with them. However, like I said, they did just release their tasks or they are on the verge of releasing tasks which is basically a tool that can like, like do a task for you in the future. So it can like remind you to review your past report or schedule a calendar update or something like that. Very basic level of agentic capabilities.

[Gajo Sevilla]

Yeah, And I think it's. Right now it's just web based, so it's not a standalone application you'd have to have. Okay, yeah.

[Jacob Bourne]

That said though, I think that we are going to see OpenAI, you know, release, you know, more capable AI agents sometime this year. And just like with everything else with the AI sector, you know, once a few companies start doing it, then the pressure for everybody to start doing it becomes very high and you're at risk of not staying competitive if you don't. So not just AI OpenAI, but I think we're going to see more agents be released by other companies. We might see some open source agentic models hit the market, allowing third parties to build off of them.

[Marcus]

Okay, really quickly, Jacob, will these bots and AI agents speak to each other?

[Jacob Bourne]

Yeah, so that, that's, that's a great question. I think this is one of the big implications. Now before I answer that, I just want to just caution that we're going to see this whole term AI agent. I think we already are. See it get thrown around. So just like everybody's working on AGI, everybody has an AI agent, doesn't necessarily mean that they're all that autonomous. So, for example, Google's automotive AI agent. Now, how agentic it actually is going to be, I mean, who knows? So I think that's the big thing is that when you have AI agents doing things like shopping, well then that means that it's not just humans that are sort of the audience for things like digital advertising. Now you have AI is actually the audience. You have AI that might be consuming content that's produced by another AI. So yes, you are going to. The more we see this deploy, the more capable they become. We're going to see AI agents communicating not just with humans, but with each other, carrying out tasks with each other, being each other's audience in some way. So I'm not even sure anyone even understands the full implications of this. To have AI consuming content that way and communicating with each other. I think one can only imagine that it's going to be a risk multiplier for AI. And so although the vision with AI agents is this fully autonomous reality where humans can just set it and forget it like everything, I think that the risk is going to be a barrier to really seeing that reach, you know, you know, reach fruition.

[Marcus]

Yeah.

[Jacob Bourne]

And I think we're really going to see just a need for human oversight on, on some capacity of, you know, what are these AI agents doing in the background? Or are really they. Are they really doing what they should be doing?

[Marcus]

I think it's going to be a big year, but we shouldn't expect that by the end of the year everyone's going to be using these, these agents. Right. There was some research from Gartner. By 2028, at least 15% of daily business decisions will be made autonomously through agentic AI, up from obviously 0% last year. But also by that time to what you've been saying this whole time, 25% of enterprise breaches will be tied to AI agent abuse.

[Jacob Bourne]

That's a great point. So even though the enterprise, you know, companies are really excited about agentic AI, we can only imagine they're going to be also pretty nervous about having just kind of, you know, signing off autonomy to AI agents to work in the background, just like there. Many were nervous about chatbots. This should be even more agents probably pose even higher risk. So now on the consumer front, I think the average consumer is a bit more wary about AI than the average business, I would say. And so I think that consumers getting exposed to AI agents through, you know, on their PC, on their smartphone, I think that there's going to be adoption there too. But I think that there's going to be more caution in big part because obviously on the enterprise end, it's that cost savings, it's that time savings that's such an allure. I think your average consumer doesn't necessarily have that same kind of desire to just cut costs in that way. So anybody who has some reservations about letting AI just do things on the web for them might be a bit more wary about kind of starting to use AI agents.

[Marcus]

Gents, I don't think we even need round three, to be honest. You made some really good arguments, both of you. One on the agentic AI side, one on the smart glasses side. So it's now time to crown a star taker or baker. And today I'm going to give the award to Jacob for agentic AI. I'm still skeptical about smart glasses. When Garjo chose it, I was like, no, because I'm not sure it's going to be a thing, but it seems like it's a big push. You mentioned ces, which is often a bellwether to how people feel and what they're going to be trying to push, especially if Apple gets in. So it's really fascinating. But agentic AI does feel like a bit of the trend of the moment. I was also reading. I mean, it could have some very, very useful applications, maybe some ones which aren't so great, but there was one I was reading. German telecoms giant Deutsche Telekom rolling out an AI agent for its employees to ask any question about internal policies and benefits. It can also be used by service staff to ask questions about its products and services. Anyone who's ever worked at a company, you know, trying to find the right person to who knows the right, you know, answer to the question you have can be, can be difficult. Something like this I think could be quite useful. So yeah, I think it's going to have a lot of applications. That's why Jacob wins today. If you want to read the other three big technology trends from Jacob's Report Pro subscribers, you can head to eMarketer.com and search for tech trends to watch in 20255 AI and design advances Reshaping How Consumers Engage Link in the show notes thank you so much to my guests for today's episode. Thank you first to Gajo.

[Gajo Sevilla]

Thanks again.

[Marcus]

Thank you to Jacob.

[Jacob Bourne]

Thanks for having me.

[Marcus]

And thank you to the whole editing crew, Victoria, John, Lance and Danny Stuart, who runs the team, and Sophie who does our social media. Thanks to everyone for listening in or watching along. We hope to see you Wednesday for the Reimagining Retail show hosted by Sarah Lebo, an E Marketer podcast.